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stevied23
10-06-2008, 08:25 PM
Which players do you think KW is going to go after in the offseason? I figure we will need to fill CF, 2B, and 3B?

I would love to see Chone Figgins in a Sox uniform. I'm not sure what other players are going to be F/A.

I think Griffey will retire. Will Swisher be back? I suppose if he stays he will be our CF.

turners56
10-06-2008, 08:29 PM
Orlando Hudson.

BleacherBandit
10-06-2008, 08:30 PM
Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson. That's all I think we should go after, position wise. Give Swisher another try...

schmitty9800
10-06-2008, 08:33 PM
Griffey will either retire or take a one year deal somewhere (probably not with us, he has nowhere to play). Technically he has a player option but he waived it as part of the trade, the Reds are paying the buyout IIRC.

I have no idea who we have a shot at because I have no idea what the payroll will be. I'd guess KW has to cut it a little since we spent a fair amount extra last year. (I remembered hearing that the payroll was going to be $110M last year but it ended up at $121M on opening day)

You can subtract the 9M from Cabrera and 5M from Crede, but that might have to be the amount cut. We also have to add the 7M we won't be getting from the Phillies for Thome this year (his option year vested and the Phillies obligation is done)

EDIT: Keep in mind that signing Figgins/Hudson (if we sign both of them) would mean that our '09 1st rounder goes to the Angels and our '09 2nd rounder goes to the DBacks. (they will both almost certainly be Type A FA's)

stevied23
10-06-2008, 08:36 PM
That would be killer to have those 2 playing the infield. I think we would arguably have one of the best infields in baseball with the addition of those two.

Has anyone heard any mention of Jim Thome retiring???

HangWiffum
10-06-2008, 08:38 PM
That would be killer to have those 2 playing the infield. I think we would arguably have one of the best infields in baseball with the addition of those two.

Has anyone heard any mention of Jim Thome retiring???

sadly he won't. it would be soooooooooo good for us if he did.

Frater Perdurabo
10-06-2008, 08:41 PM
Uribe's $4.5 million deal is up, too. I imagine they will try to re-sign him at a lower salary, since he's coming off a season of having been a reserve rather than a starter (only Crede's injury got him back into the starting lineup after Alexei won the 2B job).

LITTLE NELL
10-06-2008, 08:41 PM
I dont care who they are but a leadoff and #2 guy with high OBP and speed who can set the table for the big boppers. Too many times this year we had nobody on base for TCQ, Dye, Thome and Paulie to drive in. Guys on base put pressure on the opposing pitcher where he not concentrating on the batter plus he's pitching out of the stretch.

stevied23
10-06-2008, 08:41 PM
I am torn about the whole Jim Thome thing. I think he's a great representative of the game. He contributes in the community and has done a lot with the Sox.

In the same token, he has had some really big strikeouts and is going to have the Sox on the hook for the big bucks next year.

veeter
10-06-2008, 08:42 PM
sadly he won't. it would be soooooooooo good for us if he did.His contract sucks, but I think this was Jim's best year, of the three, with the Sox. Hopefully he bats seventh next year, though.

FedEx227
10-06-2008, 08:44 PM
Seriously?

Orlando Hudson.

Hank Blalock if Texas lets him walk.

That's it.

Figgins would have to be had by trade, not going to happen.

The White Sox will look no different outside of getting ONE other player. Maybe Hudson, maybe Blalock, but look at the FA list. It's BAD. We have no flexibility. We have TWO positions with any amount of wiggle room in 2B/3B. I would not be surprised if your opening day roster is:

C: AJ
1B: Paulie
2B: Getz
SS: Alexei
3B: Fields
LF: Quentin
CF: Swisher
RF: Dye
DH: Thome

Dub25
10-06-2008, 08:46 PM
His contract sucks, but I think this was Jim's best year, of the three, with the Sox. Hopefully he bats seventh next year, though.

Where were you in 2006? He was .288-42-109. I would say that was the best year.

Hitmen77
10-06-2008, 08:48 PM
Griffey will either retire or take a one year deal somewhere (probably not with us, he has nowhere to play). Technically he has a player option but he waived it as part of the trade, the Reds are paying the buyout IIRC.

I have no idea who we have a shot at because I have no idea what the payroll will be. I'd guess KW has to cut it a little since we spent a fair amount extra last year. (I remembered hearing that the payroll was going to be $110M last year but it ended up at $121M on opening day)

You can subtract the 9M from Cabrera and 5M from Crede, but that might have to be the amount cut. We also have to add the 7M we won't be getting from the Phillies for Thome this year (his option year vested and the Phillies obligation is done)

EDIT: Keep in mind that signing Figgins/Hudson (if we sign both of them) would mean that our '09 1st rounder goes to the Angels and our '09 2nd rounder goes to the DBacks. (they will both almost certainly be Type A FA's)

Figgins is not a free agent.....and only in WSI fantasyland do we keep hearing daily pipe dreams of the Sox giving up trading chips they don't have to magically get Figgins.

schmitty9800
10-06-2008, 08:50 PM
Figgins is not a free agent.....and only in WSI fantasyland do we keep hearing daily pipe dreams of the Sox giving up trading chips they don't have to magically get Figgins.
Yeah, my bad. By the way people were talking about him in another thread I got it into my head that he was an FA.

stevied23
10-06-2008, 08:51 PM
Brian Roberts? 3rd in the AL in runs and 4th in SB.

Jurr
10-06-2008, 08:54 PM
Where were you in 2006? He was .288-42-109. I would say that was the best year.
Yeah, and that feels SO long ago. Now he is just looking to run into one. It's terrible to watch formerly great players fade away.

When teams deal away players like Jim Thome, they do so for good reason. Philly dumped him and his inflated salary at the right time, which landed them flexibility on the roster and in their offense. They've been relevant ever since.

Thome would be okay on this roster if Konerko wasn't here. This is not the case.

btrain929
10-06-2008, 09:00 PM
Free Agents?
Orlando Hudson
Mark Ellis
Miguel Olivo
Rafael Furcal
Casey Blake
Derek Lowe
Ben Sheets
Juan Cruz

Trade Candidates?
Chone Figgins
Adrian Beltre
David Dejesus
Garrett Atkins
Reggie Willits
(gulp) Juan Pierre

schmitty9800
10-06-2008, 09:01 PM
When teams deal away players like Jim Thome, they do so for good reason. Philly dumped him and his inflated salary at the right time, which landed them flexibility on the roster and in their offense. They've been relevant ever since.
No, they dumped him because Ryan Howard stepped in and won ROY while Thome was out injured. If he hadn't gotten injured they might've slow tracked Howard and held onto him. You don't just get rid of a player unless you can replace him.

Shoeless_Jim
10-06-2008, 09:01 PM
Seriously?



C: AJ
1B: Paulie
2B: Getz
SS: Alexei
3B: Fields
LF: Quentin
CF: Swisher
RF: Dye
DH: Thome

i hope that kenny can make a better effort than that.
how about:



C: AJ
1B: Paulie
2B: Hudson
3B: Figgins
SS: TCM
LF: TCQ
CF: Swisher
RF: Dye
DH: Thome

FedEx227
10-06-2008, 09:03 PM
Okay then, who are we trading to the Angels for their .267/.367/.318 leadoff hitter?

Something tells me Lance Broadway isn't enough.

And no the Angels don't want Paul Konerko anymore, plus you still had him in our lineup. You kept all of this years starters and added Figgins. Tell me who through our minor leagues grabs a .367 on-base leadoff hitter with great speed on a World Series contender?

stevied23
10-06-2008, 09:05 PM
I shudder at the thought of Fields being our third baseman next year.

rookieroy
10-06-2008, 09:07 PM
Blalock? Are you kidding me? We don't need another high strikeout, no speed, 20+ homer hitter. We have 5 starters like him already. We need more speed with higher OBP players.

I'm confident KW will "fly under the radar" again and work more magic like he did last year with Quinten and Alexi. I have a feeling we have seen the last of Paulie play for the Sox.

FedEx227
10-06-2008, 09:08 PM
Blalock? Are you kidding me? We don't need another high strikeout, no speed, 20+ homer hitter. We have 5 starters like him already. We need more speed with higher OBP players.

I'm confident KW will "fly under the radar" again and work more magic like he did last year with Quinten and Alexi. I have a feeling we have seen the last of Paulie play for the Sox.

Which team wants a 12-million dollar, mediocre and slow first baseman?

I'm not trying to be negative, just pointing out the reality of our lack of flexibility this year. We're stuck with a majority of this team, the Sox have never been ones to eat up contracts. They could easily trade Paulie in a minute if the would eat up most of his deal, but they won't. Ditto for Thome.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2008, 09:09 PM
Hitmen:

No Figgins is not a free agent however he has worn out his welcome in L.A. according to a number of good sources. My guess is that L.A. will take any reasonable offer for him.

That doesn't mean the Sox will get him but given his baggage it probably won't be as much as you think.

Lip

sox1970
10-06-2008, 09:10 PM
If the Nationals want to give us Ryan Zimmerman and a pitcher for Fields, Swisher, and Anderson...

JB98
10-06-2008, 09:10 PM
Seriously?

Orlando Hudson.

Hank Blalock if Texas lets him walk.

That's it.

Figgins would have to be had by trade, not going to happen.

The White Sox will look no different outside of getting ONE other player. Maybe Hudson, maybe Blalock, but look at the FA list. It's BAD. We have no flexibility. We have TWO positions with any amount of wiggle room in 2B/3B. I would not be surprised if your opening day roster is:

C: AJ
1B: Paulie
2B: Getz
SS: Alexei
3B: Fields
LF: Quentin
CF: Swisher
RF: Dye
DH: Thome

If that's our lineup next season, KW will have had a poor offseason.

FedEx227
10-06-2008, 09:12 PM
If that's our lineup next season, KW will have had a poor offseason.

Can you blame him though?

I don't doubt that we'll pick up either a FA 2B or 3B. But realistically I'm looking at that being our lineup. There is not much he can do.

The only tradeable parts on this team give us very little value:

Swisher
Fields
Broadway
Anderson

Lefty34
10-06-2008, 09:14 PM
If that's our lineup next season, KW will have had a poor offseason.

But there is really nothing he can do. As many people have said, we have almost zero flexibility this off-season, and it is a bear market as FA's go, what is he to do? IF the Angels don't sign Tex, then Paulie might be headed there for Figgins, but we would have to eat almost all his salary as well as trade away some of our young pitching and do more damage to an already tattered minor league system.

Rounding_Third
10-06-2008, 09:16 PM
Brian Roberts? 3rd in the AL in runs and 4th in SB.

I was thinking the same thing. I read that if the O's can't ink an extension with him, he might go on the trading block. He'll be very expensive but solve our leadoff. I expect if he does go on the block it'll be a huge bidding war.

For those who like Hudson, does he have the speed that we desperately need? It doesn't appear so; judging from his stats.

FedEx227
10-06-2008, 09:18 PM
I'd definitely be in favor for Roberts. But remember we are going to be in REAL competition with a lot of good teams for him, teams with MUCH better minor league systems.

JB98
10-06-2008, 09:22 PM
Can you blame him though?

I can't accept Fields as the starting 3B. You might as well bring back Crede. He's not going to command any more than a one-year deal after the injury anyway.

Fields is more of what we don't need. High strikeouts, no offensive skills other than power and poor defense.

I'd like to go outside the organization for a 3B. If none are available, bring back Crede.

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 09:22 PM
Yeah, and that feels SO long ago. Now he is just looking to run into one. It's terrible to watch formerly great players fade away.

When teams deal away players like Jim Thome, they do so for good reason. Philly dumped him and his inflated salary at the right time, which landed them flexibility on the roster and in their offense. They've been relevant ever since.

Thome would be okay on this roster if Konerko wasn't here. This is not the case.
Good to know you're still perpetuating the lie that "teams get better when Jim leaves."

Jim was not the problem this season.

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 09:23 PM
I'd definitely be in favor for Roberts. But remember we are going to be in REAL competition with a lot of good teams for him, teams with MUCH better minor league systems.
Plus the Orioles are going to be a fairly competitive team the next few seasons. Holding onto Roberts would be a wise move. With Jones, Wieters, Scott, Markakis, Roberts, and some financial flexibility, they could win 80-85 games.

JB98
10-06-2008, 09:24 PM
Good to know you're still perpetuating the lie that "teams get better when Jim leaves."

Jim was not the problem this season.

Frankly, I can't imagine the 2009 Sox without Thome. It's not like we have any other left-handed punch.

Rounding_Third
10-06-2008, 09:26 PM
I'd definitely be in favor for Roberts. But remember we are going to be in REAL competition with a lot of good teams for him, teams with MUCH better minor league systems.

.....and spend big bucks to keep him here. Odds aren't good, that's for sure. We need that kind of speed though. Where ever we try to find it, it's going to be a tough battle.

Rounding_Third
10-06-2008, 09:32 PM
I can't accept Fields as the starting 3B. You might as well bring back Crede. He's not going to command any more than a one-year deal after the injury anyway.

Fields is more of what we don't need. High strikeouts, no offensive skills other than power and poor defense.

I'd like to go outside the organization for a 3B. If none are available, bring back Crede.

I agree about Fields. He digressed so much this year, it makes me wonder if he'll ever make it.

I don't think Crede's the answer though. If we can't get someone from outside, I'd be happy with Uribe there if we improved our speed and/or BA elsewhere.

JB98
10-06-2008, 09:36 PM
I agree about Fields. He digressed so much this year, it makes me wonder if he'll ever make it.

I don't think Crede's the answer though. If we can't get someone from outside, I'd be happy with Uribe there if we improved our speed and/or BA elsewhere.

I would not be happy with Uribe as an everyday 3B over the long haul. He's fine as a utility player, because his glove is good enough to play anywhere on the infield. But his bat is too weak to play everyday.

The fact that Uribe played ahead of Fields down the stretch is quite telling, as far as Josh is concerned. I'm ready to cut the ties with Crede as well, but we have to find a replacement from outside the organization. I'm not pleased with the internal options.

PeoriaSoxFan
10-06-2008, 09:45 PM
Just remember, that our two best offseason moves were for guys you probably never heard of...TCQ and Alexei. I am all for KW finding a few more guys like that. Anyone else defecting from Cuba? and/or a former top 10 pick coming off an injury?

Since we are playing fantasy anyway, I say get Grady Sizemore. I think a combination of Owens, Fields, Broadway, Logan, Wasserman, MacDougal, and Toby Hall would it get it done for us. How could the refuse such a package?

Noneck
10-06-2008, 09:46 PM
Figgins will not be easy to get. Every team sees what the Sox see in him and the angels will be offered more than the Sox can afford to offer for him.

Roberts? The Sox don't have enough expendable resources to get him.

Top tier FA's? The Sox will consider them to be overpriced.

Rounding_Third
10-06-2008, 09:47 PM
I would not be happy with Uribe as an everyday 3B over the long haul. He's fine as a utility player, because his glove is good enough to play anywhere on the infield. But his bat is too weak to play everyday.

The fact that Uribe played ahead of Fields down the stretch is quite telling, as far as Josh is concerned. I'm ready to cut the ties with Crede as well, but we have to find a replacement from outside the organization. I'm not pleased with the internal options.

I hear what you're saying about Uribe. But if we improve elsewhere, he could just quietly do his thing in the #9, perhaps as good as 2005. He really seemed comfortable at 3rd and at the plate. Does anyone know his BA at 3B? I'd bet it was pretty solid and covered a fairly long period. But again, I say he's an option there ONLY if we improve a bat or two elsewhere. There's going to be a very limited amount of cash to spend with Thome's $13m option. Hopefully, they can negotiate a deferment plan.

Rounding_Third
10-06-2008, 10:01 PM
Don't hate me but I see Punto is a FA this year.......3B/2B? Could be an interesting pick up. I bet Ozzie would love him here. I wouldn't mind it either. He could be a solid #2 (no pun-to intended).

Gavin
10-06-2008, 10:35 PM
I hear what you're saying about Uribe. But if we improve elsewhere, he could just quietly do his thing in the #9, perhaps as good as 2005. He really seemed comfortable at 3rd and at the plate. Does anyone know his BA at 3B? I'd bet it was pretty solid and covered a fairly long period. But again, I say he's an option there ONLY if we improve a bat or two elsewhere. There's going to be a very limited amount of cash to spend with Thome's $13m option. Hopefully, they can negotiate a deferment plan.

.285/.333/.442 as 3B in 172 ABs this year.

gregory18n
10-06-2008, 10:35 PM
1 Figgins 3B
2 Punto 2B
3 Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5 Rameriz SS
6 Dye RF
7 Pierzinski C
8 Konerko 1B
9 Wise CF

Bench; Swisher, Anderson, Uribe, Hall

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 10:36 PM
1 Figgins 3B
2 Punto 2B
3 Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5 Rameriz SS
6 Dye RF
7 Pierzinski C
8 Konerko 1B
9 Wise CF

Bench; Swisher, Anderson, Uribe, Hall
I just stuck a fork in my eye.

Scottiehaswheels
10-06-2008, 10:38 PM
I just stuck a fork in my eye.:bandance::rolling::popcorn:

Lefty34
10-06-2008, 10:41 PM
1 Figgins 3B
2 Punto 2B
3 Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5 Rameriz SS
6 Dye RF
7 Pierzinski C
8 Konerko 1B
9 Wise CF

Bench; Swisher, Anderson, Uribe, Hall

So umm....how do we get Figgins, exactly?

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
So umm....how do we get Figgins, exactly?
Jerry Owens, straight up.

Lefty34
10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
Jerry Owens, straight up.

haha, maybe we can get some cash considerations, too?

Hitmen77
10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
So umm....how do we get Figgins, exactly?

If we keep saying Figgins to the Sox enough times on WSI, it'll happen.

Scottiehaswheels
10-06-2008, 10:46 PM
Jerry Owens, straight up.WAYYYY to much. Probably just need to trade the coin flipping skills of Rick Hahn's son.

Crede24Thome25
10-06-2008, 11:15 PM
If the Nationals want to give us Ryan Zimmerman and a pitcher for Fields, Swisher, and Anderson...
If Kenny Williams could pull that off man that would be awesome.:D:

hi im skot
10-06-2008, 11:20 PM
Nick Punto would be the death of me.

stockonline2
10-06-2008, 11:56 PM
I will be pretty content with our team if we can pick up a little speed and one more solid SP.

Hopefully Kenny can indeed land Hudson at 2B.

If not, I think Mark Ellis is a possibility. I think he could be had for cheap with his somewhat off year. He had a career best 14 SB with only 2 CS as well.

Ray Durham? :D:

WhiteSox5187
10-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Plus the Orioles are going to be a fairly competitive team the next few seasons. Holding onto Roberts would be a wise move. With Jones, Wieters, Scott, Markakis, Roberts, and some financial flexibility, they could win 80-85 games.
80-85 wins won't get you the East or the Wild Card, they'd be better served trading Roberts for parts that can help them win in two or three years. Unless we are either willing to give up Poreda (which I don't want to do) or they are willing to take Fields, Broadway, Anderson and/or Getz, we are not going to get Roberts.

whitesox901
10-07-2008, 12:07 AM
Seriously?

Orlando Hudson.

Hank Blalock if Texas lets him walk.

That's it.

Figgins would have to be had by trade, not going to happen.

The White Sox will look no different outside of getting ONE other player. Maybe Hudson, maybe Blalock, but look at the FA list. It's BAD. We have no flexibility. We have TWO positions with any amount of wiggle room in 2B/3B. I would not be surprised if your opening day roster is:

C: AJ
1B: Paulie
2B: Getz
SS: Alexei
3B: Fields
LF: Quentin
CF: Swisher
RF: Dye
DH: Thome

Thats what I bad us penciled in for myself, great minds think alike

HITMEN OF 77
10-07-2008, 12:14 AM
Time to contact you know who.

:ralomar:

seventyseven
10-07-2008, 12:19 AM
1 Figgins 3B
2 Punto 2B
3 Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5 Rameriz SS
6 Dye RF
7 Pierzinski C
8 Konerko 1B
9 Wise CF

Bench; Swisher, Anderson, Uribe, Hall

If Wise is our starting CF next year, I'm quitting show business.

SteveFakeBlood
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
Orlando Hudson is a solid second baseman and decent enough player overall, but he is NOT going to magically solve our speed problems. The guy has never stolen more than 10 bases in a season in his career- I don't think he's going to magically steal 30+ at age 31. His OBP is good, but exaggerated.. for his career, it's lower than Nick Swisher's. If we're going for a spark plug second baseman, let's go for Roberts- but realize he won't come cheap. I don't know, it's unfortunate that fast lead-off hitters with high OBPs don't just fall out of the sky.

~Steve

kruzer31
10-07-2008, 01:08 AM
There is no way Getz will be our starting second basemen. He wont even be on the team.

Now, I think its time to give J.Owens a shot in CF. He can steal 50 bags easily and trust me if this guy played with MINN he would be causing us havoc when facing him. We have to see if he can do the job.

With that in mind, you cant have Fields and Owens in the same starting lineup so you must deal Fields away for maybe a second basemen like Roberts or possibly Figgins or Hudson. It might take another player but I really think we need a new 2b and a new 3b and not someone like Blalock or Atkins because we have enough boppers. It would not shock me if they explore trading Konerko and give first to Swish.

Lastly Id like Kenny to give Ryan Dempster a look. He is a free agent and could help our rotation. So, here is my line up for 2009.

Chone Figgins 3b via Fields trade
Orlando Hudson 2b
Carlos Quentin LF
Jim Thome DH
Alexei Ramirez SS
Paul Konerko 1b
J.Dye RF
A.J. Pierzynski C
Jerry Owens CF

Rotation
M.Buehrle
G.Floyd
J.Danks
R.Dempster
J.Vazquez

If we dont resign Thome then Dye can DH and Swish gets a job back. This offseason should be interesting

Jeff

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 01:22 AM
There is no way Getz will be our starting second basemen. He wont even be on the team.

Now, I think its time to give J.Owens a shot in CF. He can steal 50 bags easily and trust me if this guy played with MINN he would be causing us havoc when facing him. We have to see if he can do the job.

With that in mind, you cant have Fields and Owens in the same starting lineup so you must deal Fields away for maybe a second basemen like Roberts or possibly Figgins or Hudson. It might take another player but I really think we need a new 2b and a new 3b and not someone like Blalock or Atkins because we have enough boppers. It would not shock me if they explore trading Konerko and give first to Swish.

Lastly Id like Kenny to give Ryan Dempster a look. He is a free agent and could help our rotation. So, here is my line up for 2009.

Chone Figgins 3b via Fields trade
Orlando Hudson 2b
Carlos Quentin LF
Jim Thome DH
Alexei Ramirez SS
Paul Konerko 1b
J.Dye RF
A.J. Pierzynski C
Jerry Owens CF

Rotation
M.Buehrle
G.Floyd
J.Danks
R.Dempster
J.Vazquez

If we dont resign Thome then Dye can DH and Swish gets a job back. This offseason should be interesting

Jeff
This night keeps getting better and better.

Getz will never start at 2B! Hell, he won't make the team. But, Owens must start in CF!

Was Getz's year too good? Does he have too much talent? Was Owens' abysmal play too much to overlook when constructing this fourth place roster?

Scottiehaswheels
10-07-2008, 01:23 AM
This night keeps getting better and better.

Getz will never start at 2B! Hell, he won't make the team. But, Owens must start in CF!

Was Getz's year too good? Does he have too much talent? Was Owens' abysmal play too much to overlook when constructing this fourth place roster?I think he meant Getz will get traded for A-Rod. :bandance:

BadBobbyJenks
10-07-2008, 01:46 AM
For everyone who would like to see Thome gone, how do we replace that left handed power bat?

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 02:02 AM
So umm....how do we get Figgins, exactly?

It wont actually take that much and whoever said that they Angels won't entain the offer for Konerko is dead wrong. They traded away Kotchman, their 1B of the future. I think Texeria will end up signing there but if by some reason he doesn't, they will take Konerko off our hands.

Back to Figgens. Lip already mentioned that he's falling out of favor with management there and in addition Anaheim is also ready for Brandon Wood to take over at 3B. He's a natural SS but with Erick Aybar the teams' SS of the future Wood is going to be at 3rd.

That said, Figgens is expendable.

MUsoxfan
10-07-2008, 02:22 AM
It wont actually take that much and whoever said that they Angels won't entain the offer for Konerko is dead wrong. They traded away Kotchman, their 1B of the future. I think Texeria will end up signing there but if by some reason he doesn't, they will take Konerko off our hands.



Konerko isn't exactly a hot commodity. He also has a no-trade clause which I know he'd be VERY reluctant to waive.

Alexei4president
10-07-2008, 06:41 AM
sadly he won't. it would be soooooooooo good for us if he did.

i think if you just hit 34 homeruns you dont retire the next year unless u want to retire on a good season.......even though that would be nice because then paul could play DH

Lillian
10-07-2008, 08:06 AM
As I wrote in another thread, there is no need to sign anyone to a long term deal to play 2B. Beckham should be with the Sox by 2010. That makes Figgins a good candidate, as he will be in his Free Agent year.
It shouldn't take that much to get him, and then you let him walk at the end of next season.
Second base would also seem to be his best position.
I don't like his arm at 3B.

FedEx227
10-07-2008, 08:37 AM
Chone Figgins 3b via Fields trade


The Angels already have a high strikeout, stone-gloved 3B/SS named Brandon Wood. They have absolutely zero need for Josh Fields.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 08:56 AM
Blalock? Are you kidding me? We don't need another high strikeout, no speed, 20+ homer hitter. We have 5 starters like him already. We need more speed with higher OBP players.

I'm confident KW will "fly under the radar" again and work more magic like he did last year with Quinten and Alexi. I have a feeling we have seen the last of Paulie play for the Sox.

You are a rookie.

Their names are Quentin and Alexei.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 08:57 AM
Hitmen:

No Figgins is not a free agent however he has worn out his welcome in L.A. according to a number of good sources. My guess is that L.A. will take any reasonable offer for him.

That doesn't mean the Sox will get him but given his baggage it probably won't be as much as you think.

Lip

You should just make this your sig, Lip, because everyone always asks you about it and I feel bad you always have to repeat it :D:

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:01 AM
I just stuck a fork in my eye.

LOL Yes!

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:05 AM
This night keeps getting better and better.

Getz will never start at 2B! Hell, he won't make the team. But, Owens must start in CF!

Was Getz's year too good? Does he have too much talent? Was Owens' abysmal play too much to overlook when constructing this fourth place roster?

Don't forget that he also mentioned we might not sign Thome, even though his option automatically vested and he will be here no matter what.

God, sometimes I feel like I know TOO MUCH about the White Sox....

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:07 AM
As I wrote in another thread, there is no need to sign anyone to a long term deal to play 2B. Beckham should be with the Sox by 2010. That makes Figgins a good candidate, as he will be in his Free Agent year.
It shouldn't take that much to get him, and then you let him walk at the end of next season.
Second base would also seem to be his best position.
I don't like his arm at 3B.

Problem with that is:
1) Yes, there is a chance Beckham doesn't pan out.
2) We might trade him for MLB ready talent like we do with many prospects.
If there is a stud FA that we can sign and he's willing to play here, we do it and worry about Beckham later.

soxfan43
10-07-2008, 09:33 AM
One of the key things from this season are the development of danks and floyd. WIth 2 young guys like that to go along with Richard, Broadway and Poreda, we have some expendable young pithching. I know none of those guys are top flight prospects, but they aren't busts either. Teams covet young pitching. As stated before, anaheim has a ton of young IFers, so Figgins(going into his walk year) is expendable. Our young arms alone won't get him, but I don't think it will take as much to get Figgins as it will a Brian Roberts.

kruzer31
10-07-2008, 11:17 AM
This night keeps getting better and better.

Getz will never start at 2B! Hell, he won't make the team. But, Owens must start in CF!

Was Getz's year too good? Does he have too much talent? Was Owens' abysmal play too much to overlook when constructing this fourth place roster?


Owens was hurt this year. Not sure what you see in Getz


Jeff

kruzer31
10-07-2008, 11:22 AM
Don't forget that he also mentioned we might not sign Thome, even though his option automatically vested and he will be here no matter what.

God, sometimes I feel like I know TOO MUCH about the White Sox....


I thought even though his plate appearances kicked in his option that the Sox still had the option to buy him out. Just stating opinions, sorry you almighty Sox Gods like to act on here that you know everything. Geez

Jurr
10-07-2008, 11:22 AM
1 Figgins 3B
2 Punto 2B
3 Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5 Rameriz SS
6 Dye RF
7 Pierzinski C
8 Konerko 1B
9 Wise CF

Bench; Swisher, Anderson, Uribe, Hall
Yeah, man, that's pretty terrible. Go ahead and post it in yellow font to make it a complete travesty.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 11:27 AM
Problem with that is:
1) Yes, there is a chance Beckham doesn't pan out.
2) We might trade him for MLB ready talent like we do with many prospects.
If there is a stud FA that we can sign and he's willing to play here, we do it and worry about Beckham later.

And there is also a high degree of likelihood that Beckham is not a 2B. He has the arm to play SS or 3B.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 11:30 AM
I thought even though his plate appearances kicked in his option that the Sox still had the option to buy him out. Just stating opinions, sorry you almighty Sox Gods like to act on here that you know everything. Geez

If we still had the option to buy him out even if his plate appearances kicked in, do you think we would care about him hitting that # of appearances, or starting "Jim Thome Plate Appearances Countdown" threads if we could simply decline his option or buy it out?

Once his plate appearances hit, his option automatically kicked in, and we don't have a say in it.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 11:33 AM
And there is also a high degree of likelihood that Beckham is not a 2B. He has the arm to play SS or 3B.

True. It would be amazing if he could have the arm and power to play 3B.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 11:56 AM
Owens was hurt this year. Not sure what you see in Getz


Jeff
Maybe it was his really good year in AAA. Who knows?

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 12:10 PM
I think he meant Getz will get traded for A-Rod. :bandance:


I don't want A-Fraud anywhere near this team. I know people on this board like him, but if you saw him play everyday, you'd understand.

As for Getz, invite him to camp. Before he messed up his wrist, he played reasonably well and looked like he had a clue. You gotta see what you have in the closet before you go to the store.

Pear-Zin-Ski
10-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Anyone have an opinion on either Casey Blake or David DeJesus?

FedEx227
10-07-2008, 12:39 PM
I don't want A-Fraud anywhere near this team. I know people on this board like him, but if you saw him play everyday, you'd understand.

Yeah, it would really suck to have the best offensive player of our generation and one of the better SS in the league on our team.

CLUTCH!!!!!11!!!

guillensdisciple
10-07-2008, 12:43 PM
Chone Figgins is the preferred player but I am sure the White Sox can pick up some quality lead off hitter of lesser status that will fit well on this ball club, e.g. Luis Castillo from the Mets, Kelly Johnson from the Braves (I believe that is his name), and maybe even a Willy Taveras from the Colorado Rockies. There are more suitable options out there then we believe and some of them will probably be better for the sox then Chone, even though Chone is one hell of a regular and post- season player.

Also third base might be a Garret Atkins, who had a low year in terms of production. The Rockies were looking to trade Matt Holliday so the possibility of Atkins being sold is quite likely as well. However, his stock will be quite high.


I would love to see the White Sox pull off two speed freaks at the top of the order but we will see how the off- season unfolds.

KenBerryGrab
10-07-2008, 12:49 PM
God, not Luis Castillo.

guillensdisciple
10-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Also to fill the void left by Contreras I hope the White Sox sign a solid fifth instead of letting one of our minor leaguers start in the fifth spot. Richard looked great the last few weeks but I think the Sox should sit him in the bullpen for one more year so we could see some signs of consistency throughout the year from him.

These are the low-rent fifth starters the White Sox could get....

Paul Byrd, Freddie Garcia, Jamie Moyer, and Oliver Perez.

Tim Wakefield might be out there too if the Red Sox don't pick up his option, which won't happen but wouldn't it be great to have him on the sox?

EndemicSox
10-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Williams will most certainly be targeting a high OBP/speedster for the top of the order, problem is, so will 20 other teams in this moneyball era. Maybe Beckham is a Longoria-esque freak, and can help next year?

jabrch
10-07-2008, 12:57 PM
Tim Wakefield might be out there too if the Red Sox don't pick up his option, which won't happen but wouldn't it be great to have him on the sox?

With our Cs already being defensively challenged, I'd rather not see Wakefield here.

FedEx227
10-07-2008, 01:04 PM
With our Cs already being defensively challenged, I'd rather not see Wakefield here.

Carl Crawford would have 8 steals per game against us.

guillensdisciple
10-07-2008, 01:05 PM
With our Cs already being defensively challenged, I'd rather not see Wakefield here.
Never took that into consideration but that is very very true, perhaps a pick up of a knuck-ball catcher would be in order then. Alas I am just dreaming, Tim Wakefield would make this the best rotation in the major leagues.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Yeah, it would really suck to have the best offensive player of our generation and one of the better SS in the league on our team.

CLUTCH!!!!!11!!!


Pujols is better. The numbers back it up as well. He's also a better teammate and a classy ambassador for the game. A-Rod's numbers are great, but they don't tell the whole story.

kittle42
10-07-2008, 01:08 PM
Yeah, it would really suck to have the best offensive player of our generation and one of the better SS in the league on our team.

CLUTCH!!!!!11!!!

You see, he is not "clutch," lacks "heart," and is definitely not "Chicago Tough."

Thus, the fact that he will likely rank in the Top 5 players to ever put on a uniform and is still in the latter part of his prime is obviously irrelevant.

Chicago Tough!

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Chone Figgins is the preferred player but I am sure the White Sox can pick up some quality lead off hitter of lesser status that will fit well on this ball club, e.g. Luis Castillo from the Mets, Kelly Johnson from the Braves (I believe that is his name), and maybe even a Willy Taveras from the Colorado Rockies. There are more suitable options out there then we believe and some of them will probably be better for the sox then Chone, even though Chone is one hell of a regular and post- season player.

Also third base might be a Garret Atkins, who had a low year in terms of production. The Rockies were looking to trade Matt Holliday so the possibility of Atkins being sold is quite likely as well. However, his stock will be quite high.






I would love to see the White Sox pull off two speed freaks at the top of the order but we will see how the off- season unfolds.


Luis Castillo is finished. The fact that Minaya gave him a four-year deal after the Twins didn't pick up his option is astounding. In September, he got an ominous NBA stat: DNP-Manager's Decision.

I like Atkins a lot. He's a solid all-around player. The Rockies need starters, though, so we may not have what they need.

FedEx227
10-07-2008, 01:10 PM
I like the idea of Garrett Atkins a lot.

Career .298/.360/.474 hitter. Decent pop, decent gap power. Obviously he had much bigger gaps to work with in Colorado, but I think he could be a solid choice for 3rd base.

Lukin13
10-07-2008, 01:15 PM
How long of a deal is Ellis looking for?

I don't think KW is going to give Hudson 5+ years with Beckham in the wings.

sox1970
10-07-2008, 01:29 PM
I don't think KW is going to give Hudson 5+ years with Beckham in the wings.

I agree, and I don't want Beckham moved from SS either. The Arizona Fall League starts today, and it'll be interesting to see if Beckham gets moved around the infield. My feeling is that he was drafted as a SS, and he should stay there as long as he's good there. Maybe Ramirez at short, and Getz at 2B next year, and then Beckham comes up, and moves Alexei back to second in 2010.

esbrechtel
10-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Anyone have an opinion on either Casey Blake or David DeJesus?

I looked at Casey Blake's numbers because I remembered he killed us but I dont think he is the answer. He isn't very fast and we have enough 5-9 hitters on this team.

DeJesus is a solid hitter but we already have too many corner outfielders....Also he was 11 for 19 in stolen base attempts (thats only 50% and not very good as far as SB goes) I know he played some CF but I am not sure how that went...plus he isn't a FA and we would have to trade for him, I'm not sure what we'd give up...

Lukin13
10-07-2008, 01:46 PM
Anyone have an opinion on either Casey Blake or David DeJesus?


DeJesus has been somewhat of a dissapointment in KC.

He is surehanded in CF, but doesn't have a ton of range. John Dewan's +/- rating doesn't like him very much (in fact it rates him 27th among center fielders), but his RZR is definitely above average. He is a very similar player to Aaron Rowand defensively. I could tolerate his OF defense if TCQ and Swisher were along side him in '09; but if JD is patrolling right-field daily, the lack of range in CF and RF would continue to haunt us; especially on the road.

Offensively, his OBP has been an automatic .360 over the years which would work for the White Sox in the 1 or 2 spot. He doesn't run as much as one would think but if the Sox have their "all or nothing" guys back next season, we really don't need a base stealer.

DeJesus is locked in on the cheap through 2010 and has some value. While our farm system does have enough prospects to make a move for DeJesus, I am not sure we could or should spare them. I think KW might be more interested in a player like Coco Crisp, who would be essentially free for the hauling or Mike Cameron whose option might not be picked up in Milwaukee.

SpiderJames
10-07-2008, 01:49 PM
I say we trade Javy and Contreras, and get Kerry Wood and Ryan Dempster.

UofCSoxFan
10-07-2008, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't mind giving Swisher a fresh start next year but we have to have a contingency plan that does not involve DeWayne Wise or Brian Anderson.

Chone Figgens would be great since he can leadoff and play 3B, but he is arbitration eligible and likely won't be available.

We need to acquire a middle infielder with speed, who doesn't necessarilly need to be a 2B since if the right SS was available, keeping Alexei at 2nd would also be an option.

I do not want Fields at 3B and I do not want Swisher in CF.

UofCSoxFan
10-07-2008, 01:57 PM
I agree, and I don't want Beckham moved from SS either. The Arizona Fall League starts today, and it'll be interesting to see if Beckham gets moved around the infield. My feeling is that he was drafted as a SS, and he should stay there as long as he's good there. Maybe Ramirez at short, and Getz at 2B next year, and then Beckham comes up, and moves Alexei back to second in 2010.

I agree, although I'm much more against moving him to 3B than to 2B. As a middle infielder he's a potential all-star if he reaches his projected numbers. At third base, however, that production is slightly above average.

If his range forces you to make a move, then do it, but don't move him just to fill a one or two year hole.

Pear-Zin-Ski
10-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Yeah I dunno why I have a DeJesus fetish haha...thanks for the insight guys....

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 02:04 PM
The 3 players I want and will be on the trade market

Chone Figgins 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nate McClouth CF

My lineup for opening day would look like this

1 Chone Figgins 3B
2 Nate McClouth CF
3 Carlos Quentin RF
4 Jermaine Dye DH
5 Milton Bradley LF ( free agent)
6 AJ Pierzynski C
7 Alexei Ramirez SS
8 Nick Swisher 1B
9 Robinson Cano 2B

hillbilly
10-07-2008, 02:06 PM
I cant believe nobody mentioned going after Rafael Furcal. I think KW will land him and not for much.

esbrechtel
10-07-2008, 02:35 PM
I think I speak for a few WSIers that many are worried about Furcal's off field persona and his injury issues...I will admit he is a nice player but do the positives outweigh the negatives?

soxfan43
10-07-2008, 02:38 PM
The 3 players I want and will be on the trade market

Chone Figgins 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nate McClouth CF

My lineup for opening day would look like this

1 Chone Figgins 3B
2 Nate McClouth CF
3 Carlos Quentin RF
4 Jermaine Dye DH
5 Milton Bradley LF ( free agent)
6 AJ Pierzynski C
7 Alexei Ramirez SS
8 Nick Swisher 1B
9 Robinson Cano 2B

I like it, but care to explain how Thome and Konerko are traded?

Foulke You
10-07-2008, 02:40 PM
I might get flamed for this but I've always been a David Eckstein fan. He is a free agent next season that I wouldn't mind KW poking the tires on him. Eckstein has a bad throwing arm for SS but would be fine at 2B for us with Alexei at SS. Eckstein doesn't steal a ton of bases but he is the type of pesky slap hitter that has been missing from our lineup. Eckstein doesn't strike out a whole lot and puts the ball in play a LOT which is something we desperately need. He also has two World Series rings on his resume which is nice experience to have if you plan a return trip to October. Eckstein also could come relatively cheap since he is coming off an injury plagued season that limited him to only 94 games played with the Jays and Dbacks. He won't be able to command big long term money which is good considering Beckham could be waiting in the wings. Might be a good stop gap for us. I don't think Eckstein would be an ideal leadoff hitter but he could be a solid #2 hitter and cut down on our "all or nothing" approach.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 02:40 PM
I think I speak for a few WSIers that many are worried about Furcal's off field persona and his injury issues...I will admit he is a nice player but do the positives outweigh the negatives?

When was his last off the field issue? And was there anything but (not that I am trivializing them) the multiple DUIs? that he got in his very young years?

As far as the injuries, I don't see a long history of injuries from him. Since getting the starting job full time in 2002, he has had 154+ 4 times, 143 and 138 before this season's early injury. This isn't Ken Griffey Jr. (2004-2007). This isn't Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Sure - there is risk. He is not in his early 30s (31?) but I'd rather Furcal as a FA than paying in prospects to get a lesser player like Roberts or Figgins.

oeo
10-07-2008, 02:42 PM
The 3 players I want and will be on the trade market

Chone Figgins 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nate McClouth CF

My lineup for opening day would look like this

1 Chone Figgins 3B
2 Nate McClouth CF
3 Carlos Quentin RF
4 Jermaine Dye DH
5 Milton Bradley LF ( free agent)
6 AJ Pierzynski C
7 Alexei Ramirez SS
8 Nick Swisher 1B
9 Robinson Cano 2B

Maybe on Playstation...

If that's your serious expectations, then get ready for a disappointment.

esbrechtel
10-07-2008, 02:44 PM
On the furcal issue also how much are teams willing to pay for the guy as well? I don't think the Sox would shell out too much for a 31 year old player with a highly touted #1 draft pick waiting in the wings. I wouldn't want to give the guy more than a 2 or 3 year deal and I bet there are some dumb GMs that will offer him a 5 year deal...

Law11
10-07-2008, 02:44 PM
Maybe on Playstation...

If that's your serious expectations, then get ready for a disappointment.

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

soxfan43
10-07-2008, 02:45 PM
I might get flamed for this but I've always been a David Eckstein fan. He is a free agent next season that I wouldn't mind KW poking the tires on him. Eckstein has a bad throwing arm for SS but would be fine at 2B for us with Alexei at SS. Eckstein doesn't steal a ton of bases but he is the type of pesky slap hitter that has been missing from our lineup. Eckstein doesn't strike out a whole lot and puts the ball in play a LOT which is something we desperately need. He also has two World Series rings on his resume which is nice experience to have if you plan a return trip to October. Eckstein also could come relatively cheap since he is coming off an injury plagued season that limited him to only 94 games played with the Jays and Dbacks. He won't be able to command big long term money which is good considering Beckham could be waiting in the wings. Might be a good stop gap for us. I don't think Eckstein would be an ideal leadoff hitter but he could be a solid #2 hitter and cut down on our "all or nothing" approach.


I could definitely see the Sox going after him if the market for Hudson, Cano or whoever else Kenny is after gets too high. Could be a good mentor to Beckham, especially if the Sox switch him around in the IF.

hillbilly
10-07-2008, 02:45 PM
Back injuries can be a bitch, this I know. But I liken his situation to JD's a few years back when we signed him. Good player coming off a few injuries. He can be had for 2 years $12-15 MM I think.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 02:49 PM
I like it, but care to explain how Thome and Konerko are traded?

Konerko to the Angels for Figgins

Thome and few million dollars to Tampa Bay for 2 top prospects

Heard a few rumors that Cliff Floyd will probably retire after the season so the Rays will need a DH

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Maybe on Playstation...

If that's your serious expectations, then get ready for a disappointment.

I would trade Floyd for Cano

Konerko for Figgins

Richard, Fields and Poerda for McClouth and Snell


I want next year team to have a lot of speed and contact hitters, tired of the long ball team with NO SPEED

Would sign Derek Lowe to take Floyd spot in the rotation

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 02:53 PM
I might get flamed for this but I've always been a David Eckstein fan. He is a free agent next season that I wouldn't mind KW poking the tires on him. Eckstein has a bad throwing arm for SS but would be fine at 2B for us with Alexei at SS. Eckstein doesn't steal a ton of bases but he is the type of pesky slap hitter that has been missing from our lineup. Eckstein doesn't strike out a whole lot and puts the ball in play a LOT which is something we desperately need. He also has two World Series rings on his resume which is nice experience to have if you plan a return trip to October. Eckstein also could come relatively cheap since he is coming off an injury plagued season that limited him to only 94 games played with the Jays and Dbacks. He won't be able to command big long term money which is good considering Beckham could be waiting in the wings. Might be a good stop gap for us. I don't think Eckstein would be an ideal leadoff hitter but he could be a solid #2 hitter and cut down on our "all or nothing" approach.

Please for the love of God no. Someone in another thread suggested Juan Pierre but this has to take the cake. Eckstein will be 34 next season, he's like 4'9" and is "grindy", one of the terms that I hate most. He is a mediocre defensive infielder, and while he has shown that he can hit and get on base a little bit (his career OBP is the same as Swisher :whiner:), he cannot hit for power, like, at all. Also, you mentioned it yourself: he is coming off an injury plagued season, so no one really knows what to expect from him day in and day out. The WS ring thing is another one of those "intangibles" that I hate more than anything, and really does not mean a whole lot. Plus, this club does not need to return to those "grinder baseball" days, must I remind al of you of Darin Erstad (HE WAS A PUNTER AT NEBRASKA!!!11!)?

russ99
10-07-2008, 02:58 PM
Please for the love of God no. Someone in another thread suggested Juan Pierre but this has to take the cake. Eckstein will be 34 next season, he's like 4'9" and is "grindy", one of the terms that I hate most. He is a mediocre defensive infielder, and while he has shown that he can hit and get on base a little bit (his career OBP is the same as Swisher :whiner:), he cannot hit for power, like, at all. Also, you mentioned it yourself: he is coming off an injury plagued season, so no one really knows what to expect from him day in and day out. The WS ring thing is another one of those "intangibles" that I hate more than anything, and really does not mean a whole lot. Plus, this club does not need to return to those "grinder baseball" days, must I remind al of you of Darin Erstad (HE WAS A PUNTER AT NEBRASKA!!!11!)?

I thought the point was to balance the team, hence acquiring speedy contact hitters who hit a high average and to all fields, and can do the little things with little or no power. We've got enough base-clogging sluggers. And who cares whether he's "grindy" or not... Besides, Erstad was a decent player, he just couldn't stay healthy.

Eckstein's not a bad idea, but he'd be the 2nd or 3rd guy we'd get to balance the lineup. Personally, I'd prefer Hudson at 2B and get a solid CF (not Crisp, Tavares or Pierre) to lead off regardless the price.

soxfan43
10-07-2008, 03:06 PM
I would trade Floyd for Cano

Konerko for Figgins

Richard, Fields and Poerda for McClouth and Snell


I want next year team to have a lot of speed and contact hitters, tired of the long ball team with NO SPEED

Would sign Derek Lowe to take Floyd spot in the rotation


Pretty optimistic huh? I'd love if they all came true, but I don't really see any of those going down. Floyd for Cano could work though. Lowe w ill get more than the 3yrs the Sox will offer. I'd imagine the Pirates could get better prospects for McClouth and snell, but who knows with that team. Not even going to touch Konerko for Figgins anymore.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 03:07 PM
The Sox top 3 needs this off season is

2B
3B
CF

So anyone who thinks I am wrong about wanting Cano, Figgins and McClouth. All 3 will be on the trade market..

Tell me which guys out there that will be on the trade market or free agency will filled these postions for us..

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 03:08 PM
I would trade Floyd for Cano

Konerko for Figgins

Richard, Fields and Poerda for McClouth and Snell


I want next year team to have a lot of speed and contact hitters, tired of the long ball team with NO SPEED

Would sign Derek Lowe to take Floyd spot in the rotation

I can assure you that's these are some of the worst Ideas I've seen. I'm not even gonna touch Floyd to the Yankees.

Why would you trade 3 young, promising pitchers for pieces that can be found via Free Agency.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 03:13 PM
I thought the point was to balance the team, hence acquiring speedy contact hitters who hit to all fields and can do the little things with little power. We got enough base-clogging sluggers. And who cares whether he's "grindy" or not... Besides, Erstad is a decent player, he just couldn't stay healthy.

Eckstein's not a bad idea, but he'd be the 2nd or 3rd guy we'd get to balance the lineup. Personally, I'd prefer Hudson at 2B and get a solid CF (not Crisp, Tavares or Pierre) to lead off regardless the price.


Ok let's try to sift through this:

"The Little Things": it sounds more like a children's book than anything having to do with baseball. I have no idea what TLT's are, and I really don't think anyone here does, either. And if you do have an idea of what TLT's are, write them out on a sheet of paper and stare at them intensely until you realize that they have little or no affect on the outcome of a baseball game. It's like the idea of "intangibles", you can't make a sound case for going after a guy with said "intangibles" because you cannot quantify them in any way, thus I could say that any player has mad "intangibles" and is thus worth any amount of money.

"Base-Clogging-Sluggers": I'm sure by BCS's you mean guys like Jim Thome, who has negative career SB's but an career OBP of .406, SLG of .560, and OPS+ of 148. Do you remember how everyone laughed at Dusty Baker when he said that walks "clog up the basepaths"? Yeah, this is kind of the same thing. Amd I saying that this team doesn't need speed to win? No, of course not. But I am saying that we don't need to sacrifice the guys that can slug the crap out of the ball, and I am most certainly saying that we don't need David Eckstein.

Erstad: Trust me, Erstad is not good. He was a punter at Nebraska, and that was about it. He had one good season with the Angels, then coninued to go about being bad at the game of baseball. In the last 4 seasons Erstad has played in 100+ games, he had 4, 7, 7, 4 HR's, and hasn't had an OPS+ above 100 since that one great year wit the Angels. He is quite not good at baseball.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 03:15 PM
I can assure you that's these are some of the worst Ideas I've seen. I'm not even gonna touch Floyd to the Yankees.

Why would you trade 3 young, promising pitchers for pieces that can be found via Free Agency.

You just never know with young pitchers look at B Mac, Gio, and many others who failed..

Tell me what free agent 2B and CF the Sox can get this off season that are better than Cano and McClouth. Since you said that they can be found in free agency

Cano, McClouth to go along with Alexei,Swish,AJ and Carlos.. We will have a nice lineup for many years

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 03:18 PM
Tell me what free agent 2B and CF the Sox can get this off season that are better than Cano and McClouth. Since you said that they can be found in free agency


I think they are "better" options in that we don't have to give up the future of our rotation for them.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 03:21 PM
I think they are "better" options in that we don't have to give up the future of our rotation for them.

name the players than.. that can win us a championship next year without spending millions of dollars for.

KW is going to build this team more from trades than free agency..

thedudeabides
10-07-2008, 03:23 PM
I would trade Floyd for Cano

Konerko for Figgins

Richard, Fields and Poerda for McClouth and Snell


I want next year team to have a lot of speed and contact hitters, tired of the long ball team with NO SPEED

Would sign Derek Lowe to take Floyd spot in the rotation

You want to trade a young under contract pitcher, who has finally turned the corner, for a 2b who can't steal bases and got on at a .305 clip last year? Then sign a 37 year old pitcher, who will get paid well, to replace him.

The whole idea Kenny would go after Cano is because he would be undervalued right now. Have you learned nothing about his style of aquiring players? Your nuts if you think we're trading Cano for Gavin. Nuts.

Pear-Zin-Ski
10-07-2008, 03:24 PM
I could tolerate Cano...jsut dunno what we'd have to give up....

btrain929
10-07-2008, 03:24 PM
I might get flamed for this but I've always been a David Eckstein fan. He is a free agent next season that I wouldn't mind KW poking the tires on him. Eckstein has a bad throwing arm for SS but would be fine at 2B for us with Alexei at SS. Eckstein doesn't steal a ton of bases but he is the type of pesky slap hitter that has been missing from our lineup. Eckstein doesn't strike out a whole lot and puts the ball in play a LOT which is something we desperately need. He also has two World Series rings on his resume which is nice experience to have if you plan a return trip to October. Eckstein also could come relatively cheap since he is coming off an injury plagued season that limited him to only 94 games played with the Jays and Dbacks. He won't be able to command big long term money which is good considering Beckham could be waiting in the wings. Might be a good stop gap for us. I don't think Eckstein would be an ideal leadoff hitter but he could be a solid #2 hitter and cut down on our "all or nothing" approach.

He might not be a bad 1 year bridge at 2B to Beckham in 2010. He can either bat #2 or #8-9 and at least put the ball in play and get on base. It would be a good value signing. You're not expecting too much, but won't be spending too much, either. If we keep Uribe as our Util infielder, he can give Eckstein days off throughout the year to keep him somewhat fresh. We can't have an All-Star at every position. I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him. I don't think its unrealistic that he can give us .275-.340 with some sb's over 350-400 AB's.

khan
10-07-2008, 03:29 PM
name the players than.. that can win us a championship next year without spending millions of dollars for.
I won't be the grammar and spelling police, but in reading this thread, you're moving the goalposts. On the one hand, there might be better players available in trade, but it might be a better move to sign FA instead. I'm not sure I agree with either, but given the sad state of the minor league system, FAs might have to be the way to go. I'm not sure that the SOX's system has enough pieces in it to acquire the types of players you're specifying.


KW is going to build this team more from trades than free agency..
If he does, it'll be miraculous. I simply don't think that there are enough pieces available to be traded away. I think that KW will make some trades, but I also think he will make use of FA as well, and probably to a greater degree than in trading.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 03:30 PM
You want to trade a young under contract pitcher, who has finally turned the corner, for a 2b who can't steal bases and got on at a .305 clip last year? Then sign a 37 year old pitcher, who will get paid well, to replace him.

The whole idea Kenny would go after Cano is because he would be undervalued right now. Have you learned nothing about his style of aquiring players? Your nuts if you think we're trading Cano for Gavin. Nuts.

There are rumors out there that Cano might be traded for Matt Holliday, So I don't think he is undervalued now...

Cano had an Avg of 340 in 06 and OBP around 360 last year..

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 03:32 PM
You just never know with young pitchers look at B Mac, Gio, and many others who failed..

Tell me what free agent 2B and CF the Sox can get this off season that are better than Cano and McClouth. Since you said that they can be found in free agency

Gio and McCarthy didn't win 17 games season. Gavin is more proven that Gio and Brandon.

I would take Orlando Hudson over Cano, especially if it costs Gavin. Cano's average has drop 30+ points the last two seasons, and OBP droped 40+ points this season. Plus he has 12 career stolen bases.

Hudson's average has grown every year of his career as well as his OBP which dipped only this season because of injury. His stolen base numbers aren't that great but he's more likely to run than Cano.

McLouth would be nice but not for Poreda. If Figgens is a no go, I'd try to get Ryan Freel from the Reds or Reggie Willits both mid-levels guys that could be had for a lower price than McLouth.

Rockabilly
10-07-2008, 03:33 PM
I won't be the grammar and spelling police, but in reading this thread, you're moving the goalposts. On the one hand, there might be better players available in trade, but it might be a better move to sign FA instead. I'm not sure I agree with either, but given the sad state of the minor league system, FAs might have to be the way to go. I'm not sure that the SOX's system has enough pieces in it to acquire the types of players you're specifying.



If he does, it'll be miraculous. I simply don't think that there are enough pieces available to be traded away. I think that KW will make some trades, but I also think he will make use of FA as well, and probably to a greater degree than in trading.


Besides the huge players like Manny, Teixeira and K Rod the free agency market this year is brutal

thedudeabides
10-07-2008, 03:36 PM
There are rumors out there that Cano might be traded for Matt Holliday, So I don't think he is undervalued now...

Cano had an Avg of 340 in 06 and OBP around 360 last year..

The good news is I don't listen to most rumors. The Sox also do not sign free agent pitching, so we are certainly not giving up a very good young pitcher for a 2b. The Sox have money coming off the books, and that is a position the Sox could possibly fill from within, or reasonably fill through free agency. No chance.

I'm amazed at how little some people really look at how the Sox operate.

And if the Rockies trade Holliday for Cano, I will be completely shocked. Sounds to me there are quite a few out there who are way overvaluing Cano.

Foulke You
10-07-2008, 03:48 PM
"The Little Things": it sounds more like a children's book than anything having to do with baseball. I have no idea what TLT's are, and I really don't think anyone here does, either. And if you do have an idea of what TLT's are, write them out on a sheet of paper and stare at them intensely until you realize that they have little or no affect on the outcome of a baseball game. It's like the idea of "intangibles", you can't make a sound case for going after a guy with said "intangibles" because you cannot quantify them in any way, thus I could say that any player has mad "intangibles" and is thus worth any amount of moneyl.
Since you think "The Little Things" don't exist in baseball, allow me to explain my definition of the term. The following is a list of "Little Things" in baseball:

1. Put the ball in play to score a runner who is on 3rd with less that 2 out.
2. Put the ball in play to move a runner from 2nd to 3rd with less than 2 out.
3. Being able to move from 1B to 3B on a base hit.
4. Being able to score from 1B on a double hit into the gap.
5. Getting a sacrifice bunt down.
6. Being able to bunt for a base hit.
7. Beating out a slow infield grounder to extend an inning or start a rally.
8. Executing a squeeze bunt
9. Having a base hit offensive approach and swing that allows you to hit all types of pitching staffs, not just fastball throwers.

Players like David Eckstein are the type of players who are able do a lot of things on this list that help you win ballgames which is something the 2008 White Sox were missing. The reason they are called "The Little Things" is because they don't stand out on a box score or provide gaudy fantasy baseball numbers. They just help you win ballgames. This is why stat heads hated Scott Podsednik in 2005 because they couldn't wrap their minds around the value he brought to our team because he didn't have Carlos Lee type power numbers.

FedEx227
10-07-2008, 04:08 PM
Since you think "The Little Things" don't exist in baseball, allow me to explain my definition of the term. The following is a list of "Little Things" in baseball:

I'll direct you to my thread here: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2079495#post2079495

There is a different between the buzz word "doing the little things" and just playing real baseball.

1. Put the ball in play to score a runner who is on 3rd with less that 2 out.

That should be standard baseball. Shows up in a box score, called a hit and RBI.
2. Put the ball in play to move a runner from 2nd to 3rd with less than 2 out.

Standard baseball. Also shows up in a box score, I think they call it a hit.

3. Being able to move from 1B to 3B on a base hit.

Most of the league can do this with ease. We just happen to have some of the worst baserunners in the league on our team. It's not even the power hitter stuff, look at David Ortiz and his ability to go from 1st to 3rd.

4. Being able to score from 1B on a double hit into the gap.

See 3.

5. Getting a sacrifice bunt down.

Stupid and unnecessary unless it's the 9th inning.

6. Being able to bunt for a base hit.

Pretty pathetic actually if that's a skill we have to look for. You should be able to get a base hit no matter what. Few people are able to make any type of consistent OBP by doing this. It's a huge fallacy.

7. Beating out a slow infield grounder to extend an inning or start a rally.

How is that "The Little Things" that's speed. That's not doing the little things, that's not being a 36 year old big tree trunks for legs.

8. Executing a squeeze bunt

Tell me how that worked out for the Angels last night.

9. Having a base hit offensive approach and swing that allows you to hit all types of pitching staffs, not just fastball throwers.

Again, that's standard baseball.

I'm not completely disagreeing with what your saying. But enough with this "doing the little things" buzzword. Those aren't LITTLE THINGS. There are dozens of organizations in this league that do many of those things you mentioned with ease. Hell, we had a team in 05 that when down in the count 0-2, would alter their swings. Hell, Paul Konerko use to do that. We've since lost that. Those aren't "doing little things" those are becoming balance, well-rounded GOOD hitters. We aren't a great hitting team. We're a good home run hitting team that's it. I wouldn't even call our offense good, it's not... it's streaky.

That's what needs to change. Getting David Eckstein doesn't change the entire dynamic of our teams philosophy from the minors to the majors. Getting Grindy McGrinderstein doesn't suddenly make Jim Thome faster, or Paul Konerko a smart baserunner.

It's a complete coaching and organizational approach that HAS to change for us to reach that point. Having 2 guys that are balance hitters doesn't completely change this team, its bench or its minor leagues.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 04:21 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself, FedEx. Indeed, a good portion of the things on that list are things that most good ballplayers do normally and/or are supposed to be able to do. Doing most of those things isn't "doing the little things", it's playing the game intelligently and being a good hitter. As for the sacrifice bunts and bunts for base hits, that's just bad baseball. The whole object of baseball is to not make outs at the plate, that is what helps your team win. In fact, your Expected Runs with a runner on first and no outs is .900, whereas your ER with a runner on second and one out is only .695. Sacrifice bunting is not a "little thing", it's a dumb thing in most situations, and bunting for a hit is very risky unless you are an absolute speedster and the 3B is playing back. So much for Eckstein, I guess.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 04:50 PM
Since you think "The Little Things" don't exist in baseball, allow me to explain my definition of the term. The following is a list of "Little Things" in baseball:

Don't fight the FJM Parrots. It's like banging your head into a wall.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 04:53 PM
Don't fight the FJM Parrots. It's like banging your head into a wall.

Ha, that's funny. Do you write your own stuff? Or are you one of the people that is disheartened by any challenge made to your traditional knowledge of baseball?

gn2727
10-07-2008, 05:08 PM
In a perfect world:

Swisher gets moved.
Vazquez gets moved.
Owens & or Anderson figure it out + get a chance.
Brian Roberts comes in and plays 2B + leads off.
Figigns gets traded here.

Our lineup looks like this:

Roberts 2B
Pierzynski C
Quentin LF
Dye RF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Figgins 3B
Ramirez SS
Anderson/Owens CF

Im dreaming but that lineup has power, speed and defense.......you could even flip Pierzynski and Figgins and then move Alexei up one spot as well.....
The top of the order would have sick speed and cause havoc on the basepaths while our big boppers are up to bat!

gn2727
10-07-2008, 05:09 PM
Hey Fedex you need to give that list to KW and Ozzie. Its the troof.........

Although a guy like Willie Taveras would be good to have I bet he could be had.........

Lip Man 1
10-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Well then gang based on some of what you are saying, we must have collectively the stupidest baseball team on the face of the Earth.

Because it seems to me if a lot of these things are "standard baseball stuff", then it's apparent the Sox can't do them often, can't do them well and can't seem to do them period.

Change this...period. I give a damn if they are "little things" or "standard baseball stuff." The Sox can't do them and it needs to be fixed.

Lip

Jerome
10-07-2008, 05:24 PM
Danks and Quentin to the Angels so we can finally get Chone Figgins, dagummit.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 05:25 PM
Well then gang based on some of what you are saying, we must have collectively the stupidest baseball team on the face of the Earth.

Because it seems to me if a lot of these things are "standard baseball stuff", then it's apparent the Sox can't do them often, can't do them well and can't seem to do them period.

Change this...period. I give a damn if they are "little things" or "standard baseball stuff." The Sox can't do them and it needs to be fixed.

Lip

I wouldn't say that they are stupid, just not the type of hitters to get some of those things done. Swisher can be one of those line-drive guys (he can hit a goodly amount of doubles), but obviously he had his worst career year this season and wasn't able to get it done. TCQ is also one of those guys who can hit the long ball but also keep it in the yard and knock it around a bit (26 2b's this season), and we all know how tempting it is to speculate "what might have been" had he not hurt himself. Alexei can get the job done as well, and is the player most likely to be able to beat out and infield grounder. Other than that our team is on the way slow side of the spectrum, but in return for giving up that trait we get some high OBP's and HR totals. Lord only knows what Konerko will do next season, given the day/night difference in his first- and second-half performances. All in all I say some speed needs to be added, but please, for the love of God, not Eckstein or Pierre.

FedEx will love this: Joey Gathright, anyone?

gn2727
10-07-2008, 05:26 PM
Well then gang based on some of what you are saying, we must have collectively the stupidest baseball team on the face of the Earth.

Because it seems to me if a lot of these things are "standard baseball stuff", then it's apparent the Sox can't do them often, can't do them well and can't seem to do them period.

Change this...period. I give a damn if they are "little things" or "standard baseball stuff." The Sox can't do them and it needs to be fixed.

Lip


Its not that we have the stupidest team. It just seems that it has become acceptable not to do those things or at least try to do those things.

A few things I would have these players do (Thome, Konerko, Uribe, AJ, Dye) is come into ST much lighter if we are gonna keep trying to do it with this team. I know Thome is older, but the rest of them could stand to drop a few and become a bit more athletic even if its not in their genes.

Foulke You
10-07-2008, 05:28 PM
I'll direct you to my thread here: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2079495#post2079495

There is a different between the buzz word "doing the little things" and just playing real baseball.



That should be standard baseball. Shows up in a box score, called a hit and RBI.


Standard baseball. Also shows up in a box score, I think they call it a hit.



Most of the league can do this with ease. We just happen to have some of the worst baserunners in the league on our team. It's not even the power hitter stuff, look at David Ortiz and his ability to go from 1st to 3rd.



See 3.



Stupid and unnecessary unless it's the 9th inning.



Pretty pathetic actually if that's a skill we have to look for. You should be able to get a base hit no matter what. Few people are able to make any type of consistent OBP by doing this. It's a huge fallacy.



How is that "The Little Things" that's speed. That's not doing the little things, that's not being a 36 year old big tree trunks for legs.



Tell me how that worked out for the Angels last night.



Again, that's standard baseball.

I'm not completely disagreeing with what your saying. But enough with this "doing the little things" buzzword. Those aren't LITTLE THINGS. There are dozens of organizations in this league that do many of those things you mentioned with ease. Hell, we had a team in 05 that when down in the count 0-2, would alter their swings. Hell, Paul Konerko use to do that. We've since lost that. Those aren't "doing little things" those are becoming balance, well-rounded GOOD hitters. We aren't a great hitting team. We're a good home run hitting team that's it. I wouldn't even call our offense good, it's not... it's streaky.

That's what needs to change. Getting David Eckstein doesn't change the entire dynamic of our teams philosophy from the minors to the majors. Getting Grindy McGrinderstein doesn't suddenly make Jim Thome faster, or Paul Konerko a smart baserunner.

It's a complete coaching and organizational approach that HAS to change for us to reach that point. Having 2 guys that are balance hitters doesn't completely change this team, its bench or its minor leagues.
Ok, so you don't like the so called "little things" buzz word. I gather that based on your long winded reply to my list. You are getting off topic here and so is Lefty34. Whether you want to call my list "Little Things" or "Standard Baseball" or WHATEVER you want to call it, I think we can agree that the Sox did most of those things on the list POORLY. Would it not be smart then to add a player or two that does some of these things we NEED to balance the team out so that it isn't so one dimensional? Would you not agree that a player like David Eckstein or Chone Figgins does some of these things for us?

I also disagree with you that the organization approach needs to change. The 2005 Sox were a homer happy team as well and they won a World Series. Same organization, same philosophy, same coaches as we have now! The main difference was a much better bullpen and a more balanced lineup that had Podsednik and Iguchi at the top that did the "little things" or "standard baseball" as you like to call it. If guys like Figgins, Eckstein, Hudson or whoever are added to the top of the lineup and some of the pitching weakness are addressed, I'll see you in October of '09.

As far as bunting goes, I think you are way undervaluing that skill. Bunting has been a part of baseball since its inception but I guess every manager who has employed its use over the course of baseball history has been stupid or wasting their time according to FedEx227. Ask Indians fans about how fun it was to watch Kenny Lofton drive teams insane with bunting for hits and starting rallys. (I have vivid memories of Lofton starting many a rally against the late 90s Sox with a bunt base hit) What about bunting for a hit on a pitcher who is dominating you to get him pitching out of the stretch and take him out of his rhythm? I'm not sure how that skill is "pathetic" as you call it. I call it good baseball. Also, whether YOU like bunts or not, it is the style of baseball our manager likes to play and right now he doesn't have the players on the roster who can do this for him so we better go get some to balance out our lineup.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 05:50 PM
Ok, so you don't like the so called "little things" buzz word. I gather that based on your long winded reply to my list. You are getting off topic here and so is Lefty34. Whether you want to call my list "Little Things" or "Standard Baseball" or WHATEVER you want to call it, I think we can agree that the Sox did most of those things on the list POORLY. Would it not be smart then to add a player or two that does some of these things we NEED to balance the team out so that it isn't so one dimensional? Would you not agree that a player like David Eckstein or Chone Figgins does some of these things for us?

I also disagree with you that the organization approach needs to change. The 2005 Sox were a homer happy team as well and they won a World Series. Same organization, same philosophy, same coaches as we have now! The main difference was a much better bullpen and a more balanced lineup that had Podsednik and Iguchi at the top that did the "little things" or "standard baseball" as you like to call it. If guys like Figgins, Eckstein, Hudson or whoever are added to the top of the lineup and some of the pitching weakness are addressed, I'll see you in October of '09.

As far as bunting goes, I think you are way undervaluing that skill. Bunting has been a part of baseball since its inception but I guess every manager who has employed its use over the course of baseball history has been stupid or wasting their time according to FedEx227. Ask Indians fans about how fun it was to watch Kenny Lofton drive teams insane with bunting for hits and starting rallys. (I have vivid memories of Lofton starting many a rally against the late 90s Sox with a bunt base hit) What about bunting for a hit on a pitcher who is dominating you to get him pitching out of the stretch and take him out of his rhythm? I'm not sure how that skill is "pathetic" as you call it. I call it good baseball. Also, whether YOU like bunts or not, it is the style of baseball our manager likes to play and right now he doesn't have the players on the roster who can do this for him so we better go get some to balance out our lineup.

I will accept Figgins on the team, but not Eckstein. He will be 34 and is coming off an injury-plagued season and cannot hit for much power (power is not equal to HR's in this equation), not to mention the effect the injuries and age will have on his speed. And besides, he was never one to drive the ball with RISP (wasn't that one of your "little things"?).

And about '05, it wasn't a much better bullpen, it was a lights out bullpen with almost equally good starting pitching. The "little things" done by Pods and Iguchi were overshadowed by the fact that Iguchi OPS+ed 104 (career high) and Pods had a career year in terms of OBP and had his second best year in terms of AVG. "Little things" did not win it for us in '05, it was, mostly, great pitching.

And on bunting, you could not have picked a worse example than Lofton. He batted over .300 every year except for one in those mid-to-late 90's and averaged an OBP in that same period of .391. He was also a doubles and triples machine in that period, not to mention stealing a ton of bases. Bunting was not one of the major things that made Lofton great. Just because you can remember a bunch of times that Lofton had a bunt for a hit does not mean he did it, like, all the time or even a majority of the time.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 05:51 PM
Well then gang based on some of what you are saying, we must have collectively the stupidest baseball team on the face of the Earth.

Because it seems to me if a lot of these things are "standard baseball stuff", then it's apparent the Sox can't do them often, can't do them well and can't seem to do them period.

Change this...period. I give a damn if they are "little things" or "standard baseball stuff." The Sox can't do them and it needs to be fixed.

Lip

As dumb as they are...they still made the post season.

socko82
10-07-2008, 05:54 PM
I think Tampa may look to move a starter to open a rotation spot for David Price so I would check to see what they would want for Edwin Jackson. My top position player choices would be Beltre from Seattle and Figgins from LAA.

Foulke You
10-07-2008, 05:57 PM
And on bunting, you could not have picked a worse example than Lofton. He batted over .300 every year except for one in those mid-to-late 90's and averaged an OBP in that same period of .391. He was also a doubles and triples machine in that period, not to mention stealing a ton of bases. Bunting was not one of the major things that made Lofton great. Just because you can remember a bunch of times that Lofton had a bunt for a hit does not mean he did it, like, all the time or even a majority of the time.
So Lofton is a bad example of a good bunter because he also did other things really well? :?: I'm well aware of Lofton's other abilities during that time period. I watched a lot of games back then too and your memory of Lofton is not clear, because he bunted a LOT. I suggest asking an Indians fan if you don't believe me. One of the reasons Lofton had such a great average was because of his great speed and because of his bunting ability. Was bunting the sole reason that made Kenny Lofton a great hitter? Certainly not. He was a complete leadoff hitter in every way and bunting was a part of that package.

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 06:00 PM
The thing about all of this is that Ozzie has wanted guys who can run and then he could play his game as well as using the tools that KW gave him, like power bats and power arms.

I think all this will work out if you give Ozzie the guys he's wanted all along. Guys who run, bunt, do those type of things. Put those guys in front of a Thome, Carlos, or Dye and this team becomes more consistant.

To be honest, I don't think KW is able to outbid other teams for Brian Roberts. Will Fields, Richard, Broadway do it? I would do that trade in a heartbeat.

Foulke You
10-07-2008, 06:03 PM
I will accept Figgins on the team, but not Eckstein. He will be 34 and is coming off an injury-plagued season and cannot hit for much power (power is not equal to HR's in this equation), not to mention the effect the injuries and age will have on his speed. And besides, he was never one to drive the ball with RISP (wasn't that one of your "little things"?).

And about '05, it wasn't a much better bullpen, it was a lights out bullpen with almost equally good starting pitching. The "little things" done by Pods and Iguchi were overshadowed by the fact that Iguchi OPS+ed 104 (career high) and Pods had a career year in terms of OBP and had his second best year in terms of AVG. "Little things" did not win it for us in '05, it was, mostly, great pitching.
Ok, we disagree on Eckstein. I think he might help as an inexpensive stopgap and you don't. I won't argue your ear off on him. He is just a player that has some skills that I think could benefit the Sox if he is healthy. No doubt, his injuries and age are a concern but that is likely why he could be had fairly cheaply. If it didn't work out, you can always trade him, release him, or relegate him to bench duty without it crippling your team's future like the notoriously bad Juan Pierre contract the Dodgers handed out.

As far as Pods and Iguchi circa 2005. As Lip said, I don't care what you call it, just get me players that produce like that in the 1 and 2 hole. I 100% agree about pitching being the main reason we won in '05. The offense was more balanced then but the bottom line was the pitching was way better and should always be the #1 offseason shopping list of any GM.

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 06:17 PM
Ok, we disagree on Eckstein. I think he might help as an inexpensive stopgap and you don't. I won't argue your ear off on him. He is just a player that has some skills that I think could benefit the Sox if he is healthy. No doubt, his injuries and age are a concern but that is likely why he could be had fairly cheaply. If it didn't work out, you can always trade him, release him, or relegate him to bench duty without it crippling your team's future like the notoriously bad Juan Pierre contract the Dodgers handed out.

As far as Pods and Iguchi circa 2005. As Lip said, I don't care what you call it, just get me players that produce like that in the 1 and 2 hole. I 100% agree about pitching being the main reason we won in '05. The offense was more balanced then but the bottom line was the pitching was way better and should always be the #1 offseason shopping list of any GM.

Amen, that must be priority #1.

Tragg
10-07-2008, 07:27 PM
The Sox need a leadoff hitter and a 2 hole hitter. The main qualification is getting on base. To do that, they probably must be willing to take a walk (which creates a problem with this field staff). It would also be nice if they could really hit the ball. If Ramirez could develop just a touch of patience.....
Our leadoff hitter this year didn't get on base sufficiently for a 2 hole hitter.
In 2005, we had a .350 obp and a .340 obp (with some of power); that was good, not great.

Robinson Cano doesn't have much speed and doesn't walk. Plus we'd have to give up talent, pitching no doubt, for him. Trade Floyd for him? Yikes. Sign Hudson.

Bobby Jenks
10-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Don't hate me but I see Punto is a FA this year.......3B/2B? Could be an interesting pick up. I bet Ozzie would love him here. I wouldn't mind it either. He could be a solid #2 (no pun-to intended).


I would be shocked if he left the Twins. Gardenhire is in love with him for some reason

Jurr
10-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Well then gang based on some of what you are saying, we must have collectively the stupidest baseball team on the face of the Earth.

Because it seems to me if a lot of these things are "standard baseball stuff", then it's apparent the Sox can't do them often, can't do them well and can't seem to do them period.

Change this...period. I give a damn if they are "little things" or "standard baseball stuff." The Sox can't do them and it needs to be fixed.

Lip
People who think that the "little things" don't matter are absolutely blind.
When you have a man on first that has speed, it immediately bothers a pitcher. Don't agree? Look at Gavin Floyd during the last game. When you have to pay attention to a runner, you cannot POSSIBLY concentrate on the catcher's mitt as well. Period.

When an offense can hit for contact, get a baserunner on, and execute (even in small doses) some "small ball" plays to manufacture runs, it gets pitchers uneasy early in games. It allows you to chip away at leads. It allows for rallies to happen.

Lefty34
10-07-2008, 09:48 PM
People who think that the "little things" don't matter are absolutely blind.


I'm not blind, in fact I think I can see quite well.

When you have a man on first that has speed, it immediately bothers a pitcher. Don't agree?

Yes, I do agree. But that's not a "little thing" that good players can be good or bad at. That's just simply having speed; anyone on base with a good amount of speed and a larger lead is going to get into the pitcher's head, it's not like a slower "little things" guy can do the same thing automatically.

Look at Gavin Floyd during the last game. When you have to pay attention to a runner, you cannot POSSIBLY concentrate on the catcher's mitt as well. Period.

Again, that's just speed: either you have it or you don't. Even a guy that isn't a great SB guy will get into a pitcher's head because of the simple fact that he has speed. Semicolon.

When an offense can hit for contact

That's batting average, i.e. not a "little thing".

get a baserunner on

That's called on-base percentage. Again, not a "little thing".

and execute (even in small doses) some "small ball" plays to manufacture runs

By small ball I am assuming you mean sacrifice bunts, moving the runner over and stealing bases. As far as the first two go, as I said earlier, your Expected Runs goes down significantly from a man on first with no out to a man on second with one out. And stealing bases is something that some like and others do not, because you are risking an out to get a man in scoring position, and if you make that out, you lose the runner altogether. The ability to steal bases is not necessarily a "little thing" it is just a facet of baseball that some guys are able to do and others not.

it gets pitchers uneasy early in games. It allows you to chip away at leads. It allows for rallies to happen.


You know what else does that really well? Driving the ball into the gaps; or getting walks and then driving the ball into the gaps; Or getting a man on base and getting two singles to drive him in. Those are all things that can chip away at leads, get a pitcher uneasy and start rallies, and none of them are, or could be, considered "little things", they are just the product of good baseball players doing what they are supposed to do.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2008, 09:51 PM
Jab:

And if they want to return they need to improve certain major areas.

If you aren't getting better, you're falling behind.

And yes, from a pure baseball sense they are a stupid team. The other folks are basically arguing over semantics "standard baseball practices" or "the little things" but the bottom line is when you can't execute, make dumb base running mistakes, can't even execute a run down play (even Ozzie said they were terrible at this) that's dumb baseball.

Big, big gap between making the playoffs and winning another World Series. Like the poet said, "there's miles to go, there's work to be done..."

Time to get after it.

Lip

ViPeRx007
10-08-2008, 12:50 AM
There are a few posts in this thread suggesting trading Floyd. I really don't understand that at all. He's just coming into his own and you want to trade him? Might as well trade Quentin while we're at it. Maybe even Alexei. Maybe I'm dumb but those are the guys I'd think you'd want to build around, not trade away.

See what we can do through FA. I think the Sox need to get at least one of Furcal, Eckstein, Ellis, or Hudson (can any of those guys play 3B?) As far as trades, I don't know. We don't have many trade chips so unless we're lucky or stupid (hence the Floyd talk) I don't envision any big trades. I'd dangle Konerko, Thome, and even Dye around just to see what kind of bites you get. Granted Konerko/Thome will be tougher with the NTC's but it doesn't hurt to look. I'd love to get Nate McLouth but I don't see that happening; the Pirates won't be giving him away very easy.

It'll be an interesting offseason I'm sure....well, I hope it is. Certainly KW won't trot out the same lineup next season. The homer or nothing crap has to go.

SteveFakeBlood
10-08-2008, 01:48 AM
Not to be depressing or anything, but are there really any "pure" leadoff hitters with a .350+ OBP and 30+ steals that are going to be available without trading away the last remaining decent players in our farm system for?

I'd accept Hudson if we didn't have to give him the contract of a lifetime. He's a good #2 hitter, but he'd be only slightly an upgrade from Cabrera if we forced him to lead off (maybe even a downgrade, since he's not as fast and has never had more than 10 steals).

Also, I thought this thread was titled "What players do the Sox have a legit shot of getting?" Does anyone have any kind of reliable list of players who are going to be FA... yeah I'd be great to live in some dream world where we could get Figgins or Furcal on the cheap... but people have said Figgins isn't an FA (could someone clear this up...) and I'm guessing the Angels aren't going to give him to us for failed prospects... and if Furcal is an FA lots of teams will be gunning for him.

Bah, I'm tired of speculation. In my years of watching this franchise we've had shockingly few decent lead off hitters. They're not too easy to find. I'm going to trust KW to do his best to find one, but let's all stop being ridiculous and thinking somehow will magically get a top-notch lead off hitter for any kind of decent price- market value on them is not as high as a top-notch Left-handed starter, but it's up there.

~Steve

Ziggy S
10-08-2008, 02:25 AM
You see, he is not "clutch," lacks "heart," and is definitely not "Chicago Tough."

Thus, the fact that he will likely rank in the Top 5 players to ever put on a uniform and is still in the latter part of his prime is obviously irrelevant.

Chicago Tough!

Not to hijack or anything, but that's a great name for a band. In fact, I will name my first group Chicago Tough.

esbrechtel
10-08-2008, 09:56 AM
I am surprised no one has brought up that Podsednik is a FA :redneck

jabrch
10-08-2008, 09:58 AM
Hey Fedex you need to give that list to KW and Ozzie. Its the troof.........


I think Nellie's head is going to explode.

jabrch
10-08-2008, 09:59 AM
I think Tampa may look to move a starter to open a rotation spot for David Price so I would check to see what they would want for Edwin Jackson. My top position player choices would be Beltre from Seattle and Figgins from LAA.

YUCK

I'd go with Clayton Richard first.

jabrch
10-08-2008, 10:03 AM
Jab:

And if they want to return they need to improve certain major areas.

If you aren't getting better, you're falling behind.

And yes, from a pure baseball sense they are a stupid team. The other folks are basically arguing over semantics "standard baseball practices" or "the little things" but the bottom line is when you can't execute, make dumb base running mistakes, can't even execute a run down play (even Ozzie said they were terrible at this) that's dumb baseball.

Big, big gap between making the playoffs and winning another World Series. Like the poet said, "there's miles to go, there's work to be done..."

Time to get after it.

Lip


I agree with the principle you are making Lip. I disagree that we are far away.

This team was actually fairly close. We had a few tough injuries to our two all-stars and a SP. Without that, I think this team is still playing.

That said - anything we can do to improve, I'd be all for. I'm just not sure most of the suggestions I am hearing here are improvement. Most are change for change's sake, or following the loudest noise. Neither of those are my favorite approaches.

Sox4ever77
10-08-2008, 11:08 AM
After watching Greg Maddux be such a great mentor to young pitchers on the Dodgers, I would like to see a Maddux-like veteran pitcher on board for next year.

Of course at a low cost and able to provide some quality innings as a 4th or 5th starter.

PorkChopExpress
10-08-2008, 11:19 AM
Chone Figgins is the preferred player but I am sure the White Sox can pick up some quality lead off hitter of lesser status that will fit well on this ball club, e.g. Luis Castillo from the Mets, Kelly Johnson from the Braves (I believe that is his name), and maybe even a Willy Taveras from the Colorado Rockies. There are more suitable options out there then we believe and some of them will probably be better for the sox then Chone, even though Chone is one hell of a regular and post- season player.

Also third base might be a Garret Atkins, who had a low year in terms of production. The Rockies were looking to trade Matt Holliday so the possibility of Atkins being sold is quite likely as well. However, his stock will be quite high.


I would love to see the White Sox pull off two speed freaks at the top of the order but we will see how the off- season unfolds.

This is the first name that pops into my head (Taveras). He was mentioned in rumors this season, and if I recall, Kenny tried to get him when he was with Houston. I don't have proof of that, just what I remember hearing. If that is true, you know how Kenny likes to get his man, even if it is a couple of years after he initially started pursuing him. Willy is fast, a solid defender, and decent offensively.

Garret Atkins is an interesting name as well. Unfortunately, I do not know if we have what they might want. Has the makings for a blockbuster deal, though.

soxfan43
10-08-2008, 11:25 AM
This is the first name that pops into my head (Taveras). He was mentioned in rumors this season, and if I recall, Kenny tried to get him when he was with Houston. I don't have proof of that, just what I remember hearing. If that is true, you know how Kenny likes to get his man, even if it is a couple of years after he initially started pursuing him. Willy is fast, a solid defender, and decent offensively.

Garret Atkins is an interesting name as well. Unfortunately, I do not know if we have what they might want. Has the makings for a blockbuster deal, though.

I believe Taveras was part of the failed Garland to Houston trade involing, Hirsch and Buckholz, but the Sox had injury concerns about those guys. I remember the houston papers were saying the deal was done, I was pretty excited. Oh well.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 11:35 AM
Guys, Taveras is abysmal. He might be non-tendered. He was terrible in Coors of all places!

kittle42
10-08-2008, 11:43 AM
Guys, Taveras is abysmal. He might be non-tendered. He was terrible in Coors of all places!

Everyone here gets excited about anybody who has ever played leadoff and stolen a base. Jeez - even the great Juan Pierre gets the royal treatment!

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 12:21 PM
Everyone here gets excited about anybody who has ever played leadoff and stolen a base. Jeez - even the great Juan Pierre gets the royal treatment!

Sad, isn't it? Willy is not good.

.251/.308/.296... in COORS. Great he stole 68 bases. But on-base of .308 as our leadoff hitter. No thank you.

His 2007 was better at .320/.367/.382 that I would definitely take, but it seems more like that was a career year, see as those were all career highs well above his career average.

SteveFakeBlood
10-08-2008, 12:27 PM
Everyone here gets excited about anybody who has ever played leadoff and stolen a base. Jeez - even the great Juan Pierre gets the royal treatment!


Yeah I was looking at Pierre's numbers, he was great between 2001-2004, since then his AVG/OBP numbers have dropped- .283/.327 aren't AWFUL, but not leadoff quality and only 44 runs in 119 games is pretty bad for a lead off hitter. And he's 31, he's not going to exactly get faster or more effective. That said, I'd take him if we could somehow (UNLIKELY) sign him to a one year deal with a team option. He's not as good as he used to be, but he'd be an upgrade from OC, OBP and Steals-wise. Taveras is a joke.... 68 steals, but .251/.308 at Coors is laughable. If we want someone who can steal a ****load of bases, but never actually get on base, we might as well get Michael Bourn or have Jerry Owens lead off. I think I actually would prefer Owens to Taveras, because Owens would be much cheaper.


~Steve

veeter
10-08-2008, 12:28 PM
Where were you in 2006? He was .288-42-109. I would say that was the best year.Thome was a beast in the first half of '06. The second half he was worse than awful. And if you remember, we could have used him in the second half. I just think this year he was productive throughout the whole season. His stats didn't match the 2006 numbers, but as I hope you know, numbers don't tell the whole story. Again, next year, if he's here, I hope he hits seventh.

PorkChopExpress
10-08-2008, 12:34 PM
Sad isn't it. Willy is not good.

.251/.308/.296... in COORS. Great he stole 68 bases. But on-base of .308 as our leadoff hitter. No thank you.

His 2007 was better at .320/.367/.382 that I would definitely take, but it seems more like that was a career year, see as those were all career highs well above his career average.

What about .283/.331/.337. Those are his career stats. He had a down year. So he will come cheaper. He dealt with injuries this year (a concern in and of itself, I admit) which could explain some of his poor numbers. His numbers actually remind me very much of Pods' numbers before he came to the Sox. A lot of people disagreed with that trade as well. Taveras is still young. I wouldn't mind seeing him on this team next year. And yes, I like the fact that he stole 68 bases in 133 games. That type of threat, when it is on base, is what makes the batters behind him in the lineup look better because the pitchers make mistakes worrying about the runner.

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-08-2008, 12:36 PM
I believe Taveras was part of the failed Garland to Houston trade involing, Hirsch and Buckholz, but the Sox had injury concerns about those guys. I remember the houston papers were saying the deal was done, I was pretty excited. Oh well.

I was glad that deal didn't go through as well. Now I wish it had. Buccholz has turned into a lights-out setup guy, better than any reliever the Sox currently have except possibly Jenks. Hirsch still has some potential, but Taveras has speed and defense that we certainly lack. He didn't get on base as much in '08 as in '07, but he stole 68 bases in 75 tries. If his average returns to his career norm, he would be an awesome CF for the Sox. Plus, the Rockies have Dexter Fowler, Ryan Spillborghs, Cory Sullivan, and Seth Smith who are all CFs, and might be willing to trade Taveras. I don't know what the Sox have that they would be interested in, though. Atkins is a similar case: they have Ian Stewart ready to play third. However, with Helton's health questions, they might want to hold on to Atkins. BTW, the Sox won't be able to get Holliday, period.

SteveFakeBlood
10-08-2008, 12:54 PM
It got mentioned on another thread by Lukin13 (citing my sources), but what about Ray Durham? Sure, on the outside he looks like a 37-year-old retread. But last year he finished at .289/.380- in 2007 he was crap, but in '06 he was at .293/.360. His defense is still solid, he's lost a step or three- but is still capable of double digit steals so he's not some big lumbering oaf. I think he'd be a good stop-gap solution at second base and in the #2 hole. Especially, since he'll probably be available on the very cheap and free up more money to sign the stud lead-off man or #4/#5 starter that will cost ridiculous amounts of money.

~Steve

Edit: And if Beckham's up in 2010 or 2011, we can move Alexei back to second base. And I think we could probably realistically sign Durham for one season with a team option at his age. If he falters or gets hurt, then we'd have Uribe or Getz to replace him, I think it's a low-risk move for a medium-reward.

gn2727
10-08-2008, 02:26 PM
Sad, isn't it? Willy is not good.

.251/.308/.296... in COORS. Great he stole 68 bases. But on-base of .308 as our leadoff hitter. No thank you.

His 2007 was better at .320/.367/.382 that I would definitely take, but it seems more like that was a career year, see as those were all career highs well above his career average.

Its not possible he had a bad year with regards to batting average? The thing is that most of his hits are singles, but when he gets on the bases those hits turn into doubles and triples causing havoc to any opposing pitcher.

His SB rate seems to be pretty decent as well (68 steals, 7 CS) Imsure he would have the green light every time with Ozzie as his coach as well. He could probably be had for cheap and is not that bad a CF. We certainly could do much worse. Obviously his OBP & SLG are a bit of a concern, but I think he might be one of those guys that would mesh well with our other latin players.............

RockJock07
10-08-2008, 03:49 PM
BTW, when do the options on Hall and Jr. need to be decided? I know I saw something on Harden's option that needed to be done by midnight tonight. I'm not sure if that was a Cubs thing, a MLB rule, or a stipulation in his contract but I imagine Hall is back, Jr is not unless he wants to compete with BA for 4th OF.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Thome was a beast in the first half of '06. The second half he was worse than awful. And if you remember, we could have used him in the second half. I just think this year he was productive throughout the whole season. His stats didn't match the 2006 numbers, but as I hope you know, numbers don't tell the whole story. Again, next year, if he's here, I hope he hits seventh.
Second half: .274/.420/.522/.942

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-08-2008, 06:58 PM
After looking at some stats, I think that somehow trading for Brian Roberts would be our best possibility for upgrade at 2B, 3B, or CF. He brings a mix of decent power (51 2B, 8 3B, 9 HR) and speed (40 SB), plus good OBP (.378). The Orioles should still be in rebuilding mode so they might be willing to deal him, but Angelos is always a threat to nix any trade. I'm not a scout or GM, but Russel and/or Broadway might be interesting to them.

Figgins would definitely be nice at third, but he's statistically inferior to Roberts in all of the categories I mentioned above. Plus, I think it would be harder to get him from the Angels. One possibility that people will either love or hate is Adrian Beltre. He's still under 30, and plays good defense from what I've heard. His average and OBP have declined since his career year in LA, but part of that might be due to playing in Safeco. Plus, the Mariners need to rebuild and the new GM might be willing to eat part of his salary just to start over.

In CF I think that McClouth is the most attractive option, but again, I'm not sure we have what it would take to pry him away from Pittsburgh. They seem keen on him, which is understandable for his stats and price. I still think Taveras could be a good option. If he can get on base at his career rate or better, rather than this year's rate, he could be a real threat. In his case, SLG is pretty much irrelevant, because he turns singles, walks, errors, even ground balls into doubles and triples, while putting pressure on the pitcher and getting fastballs for the batter. I know some people don't like the small ball approach, but we've got plenty of guys to hit homers, and a little speed could balance our lineup and make the offense multi-dimensional.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 07:03 PM
After looking at some stats, I think that somehow trading for Brian Roberts would be our best possibility for upgrade at 2B, 3B, or CF. He brings a mix of decent power (51 2B, 8 3B, 9 HR) and speed (40 SB), plus good OBP (.378). The Orioles should still be in rebuilding mode so they might be willing to deal him, but Angelos is always a threat to nix any trade. I'm not a scout or GM, but Russel and/or Broadway might be interesting to them.

Figgins would definitely be nice at third, but he's statistically inferior to Roberts in all of the categories I mentioned above. Plus, I think it would be harder to get him from the Angels. One possibility that people will either love or hate is Adrian Beltre. He's still under 30, and plays good defense from what I've heard. His average and OBP have declined since his career year in LA, but part of that might be due to playing in Safeco. Plus, the Mariners need to rebuild and the new GM might be willing to eat part of his salary just to start over.

In CF I think that McClouth is the most attractive option, but again, I'm not sure we have what it would take to pry him away from Pittsburgh. They seem keen on him, which is understandable for his stats and price. I still think Taveras could be a good option. If he can get on base at his career rate or better, rather than this year's rate, he could be a real threat. In his case, SLG is pretty much irrelevant, because he turns singles, walks, errors, even ground balls into doubles and triples, while putting pressure on the pitcher and getting fastballs for the batter. I know some people don't like the small ball approach, but we've got plenty of guys to hit homers, and a little speed could balance our lineup and make the offense multi-dimensional.
1. Roberts will not come cheaply and is a decent candidate for a "fall from grace" season considering he is leaving his prime and has also left the juice behind. Would be solid but not worth the price -- and no, Broadway/Russell will not interest them.
2. Figgins -- meh. He is what he is. Not bad, not good, and I certainly don't want to give up a ton for him.
3. Beltre is very good, but will cost an arm and a leg. Great defender.
4. McLouth is going NOWHERE.
5. Taveras sucks. He doesn't turn singles/walks/errors into doubles/triples because that is impossible. A single + SB is not worth a double. In fact, with the added risk of a produced out in a SB attempt, they aren't even close.

gr8mexico
10-08-2008, 07:25 PM
I actually think Brian Roberts could be had but It's going to take Josh Fields and Clayton Richards. Clayton Richards proved himself against the Rays and I'm sure the Orioles would be interested in him.Then the Sox can just add D.J Carrasco to the 5th spot and Aaron Poreda to the bullpen.

kittle42
10-08-2008, 07:25 PM
I'm not a scout or GM, but Russel and/or Broadway might be interesting to them.

As what, possible groundskeepers?

kittle42
10-08-2008, 07:26 PM
I actually think Brian Roberts could be had but It's going to take Josh Fields and Clayton Richards. Clayton Richards proved himself against the Rays and I'm sure the Orioles would be interested in him.Then the Sox can just add D.J Carrasco to the 5th spot and Aaron Poreda to the bullpen.

Who is Clayton Richards?

D.J. Carrasco is not a quality starting pitcher.

Poreda? He may be nowhere near ready.

gr8mexico
10-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Who is Clayton Richards?

D.J. Carrasco is not a quality starting pitcher.

Poreda? He may be nowhere near ready.
What did the "S" mess with your head

Brian26
10-08-2008, 07:38 PM
Kenny should dangle Jermaine Dye in front of the Dodgers this winter and see what they'll offer, especially if they just fall short of the Series and get greedy. There are three or four young guys over there I'd love to see on the Sox next year.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 08:01 PM
Kenny should dangle Jermaine Dye in front of the Dodgers this winter and see what they'll offer, especially if they just fall short of the Series and get greedy. There are three or four young guys over there I'd love to see on the Sox next year.
I have to think they'll resign Manny and stick with their Manny/Kemp/Ethier OF.

I don't think the Braves are a bad place to look for a trade involving Dye.

btrain929
10-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Kenny should dangle Jermaine Dye in front of the Dodgers this winter and see what they'll offer, especially if they just fall short of the Series and get greedy. There are three or four young guys over there I'd love to see on the Sox next year.

OF is the position they have the most depth at. MAYBE they'll be interested if they can't resign Manny, but they have Ethier, Kemp, Pierre, and Andruw Jones. I'm not saying they are all better than Dye, but they are paying for those players, so I doubt they'll look to add another 11 MIL for an OF.

champagne030
10-08-2008, 08:25 PM
I don't think the Braves are a bad place to look for a trade involving Dye.

Is Chipper on the market? It would be great to pair Escobar with his friend and former teammate Alexei, but we're not getting him for Dye. I don't like Kelly Johnson or their minor league SS's.

I think the best option for us is that the Angels lose the bid for MT and then decide PK for Figgins is a good deal. We dump salary and pick up a useful piece. Maybe like the Lee for Pods deal......That deal sucked straight up, but add AJ and Iguchi and it turned out pretty damn good.

guillensdisciple
10-08-2008, 08:29 PM
After looking at some stats, I think that somehow trading for Brian Roberts would be our best possibility for upgrade at 2B, 3B, or CF. He brings a mix of decent power (51 2B, 8 3B, 9 HR) and speed (40 SB), plus good OBP (.378). The Orioles should still be in rebuilding mode so they might be willing to deal him, but Angelos is always a threat to nix any trade. I'm not a scout or GM, but Russel and/or Broadway might be interesting to them.

Figgins would definitely be nice at third, but he's statistically inferior to Roberts in all of the categories I mentioned above. Plus, I think it would be harder to get him from the Angels. One possibility that people will either love or hate is Adrian Beltre. He's still under 30, and plays good defense from what I've heard. His average and OBP have declined since his career year in LA, but part of that might be due to playing in Safeco. Plus, the Mariners need to rebuild and the new GM might be willing to eat part of his salary just to start over.

In CF I think that McClouth is the most attractive option, but again, I'm not sure we have what it would take to pry him away from Pittsburgh. They seem keen on him, which is understandable for his stats and price. I still think Taveras could be a good option. If he can get on base at his career rate or better, rather than this year's rate, he could be a real threat. In his case, SLG is pretty much irrelevant, because he turns singles, walks, errors, even ground balls into doubles and triples, while putting pressure on the pitcher and getting fastballs for the batter. I know some people don't like the small ball approach, but we've got plenty of guys to hit homers, and a little speed could balance our lineup and make the offense multi-dimensional.

Statistically, Robers looks like a stud, but Chone is proven in both the regular and off- season. In the ALDS Chone hit everything, at least from what I saw, I want that on my team.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 08:31 PM
Is Chipper on the market? It would be great to pair Escobar with his friend and former teammate Alexei, but we're not getting him for Dye. I don't like Kelly Johnson or their minor league SS's.

I think the best option for us is that the Angels lose the bid for MT and then decide PK for Figgins is a good deal. We dump salary and pick up a useful piece. Maybe like the Lee for Pods deal......That deal sucked straight up, but add AJ and Iguchi and it turned out pretty damn good.
Kelly Johnson wouldn't be a bad pick up at all. He is a solid 2B who doesn't do anything spectacular, but also is pretty solid in almost every area.

At the same time, like Orlando Hudson, he wouldn't be a good fit in our park. He'd be moving to the Cell, which suppresses doubles and triples and inflates HR. I'm not convinced he's a good fit.

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 08:49 PM
Its not possible he had a bad year with regards to batting average? The thing is that most of his hits are singles, but when he gets on the bases those hits turn into doubles and triples causing havoc to any opposing pitcher.

His SB rate seems to be pretty decent as well (68 steals, 7 CS) Imsure he would have the green light every time with Ozzie as his coach as well. He could probably be had for cheap and is not that bad a CF. We certainly could do much worse. Obviously his OBP & SLG are a bit of a concern, but I think he might be one of those guys that would mesh well with our other latin players.............

He had a bad year in everything. Look at his slugging. That indicates that he is certainly not getting any doubles or triples. And if you can't get triples/doubles in Coors, then you're bound to be a singles guy with us.

guillensdisciple
10-08-2008, 08:52 PM
He had a bad year in everything. Look at his slugging. That indicates that he is certainly not getting any doubles or triples. And if you can't get triples/doubles in Coors, then you're bound to be a singles guy with us.

We need a guy to create... SOMETHING for the sox, too many times has this offense been stagnant, this has to change. We have to go back to getting on, moving them along, and driving them in.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 09:29 PM
We need a guy to create... SOMETHING for the sox, too many times has this offense been stagnant, this has to change. We have to go back to getting on, moving them along, and driving them in.
Then why do we have any interest in Willy Taveras?

gr8mexico
10-08-2008, 09:48 PM
Is Chipper on the market? It would be great to pair Escobar with his friend and former teammate Alexei, but we're not getting him for Dye. I don't like Kelly Johnson or their minor league SS's.

I think the best option for us is that the Angels lose the bid for MT and then decide PK for Figgins is a good deal. We dump salary and pick up a useful piece. Maybe like the Lee for Pods deal......That deal sucked straight up, but add AJ and Iguchi and it turned out pretty damn good.
Actually a trade for Escobar would make sense. The Braves have depth at SS with Martin Prado taking over at SS. The Braves could use Konerko or Dye in there lineup.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 09:50 PM
Actually a trade for Escobar would make sense. The Braves have depth at SS with Martin Prado taking over at SS. The Braves could use Konerko or Dye in there lineup.
They'd make us take Prado and keep Escobar. That's academic.

They have no use whatsoever for Paul Konerko. Not sure where you get the idea they'd be interested.

btrain929
10-08-2008, 09:54 PM
Actually a trade for Escobar would make sense. The Braves have depth at SS with Martin Prado taking over at SS. The Braves could use Konerko or Dye in there lineup.

You do know they have Casey Kotchman and there's no DH in the NL, right? Dye I can see, Konerko = stop.

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 10:23 PM
Then why do we have any interest in Willy Taveras?

Haha! Thank you. I thought about that today listening to sports radio.

Everyone always says "Get 'em on, get em over, get em in"... but then propose players that clearly don't "get on" at a very high pace and claim that OBP doesn't matter.

So in one breath you can't say you want the get 'em on, get em in mentality and then want someone who is clearly below average in "getting on".

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 10:24 PM
They'd make us take Prado and keep Escobar. That's academic.

They have no use whatsoever for Paul Konerko. Not sure where you get the idea they'd be interested.

Brent Lillibridge regressed tremendously this year, maybe we could get him at a low price and see what happens. I'm not calling as him for starting and this is sort of off-topic but since he's clearly the No. 3 guy now for them at the SS position, he might be worth taking a flier on despite a bad year. Career .270/.352/.421.

A lot of sites have him dropping as far as 10-11 on the Braves organizational list. Wow.

Lefty34
10-08-2008, 10:25 PM
We need a guy to create... SOMETHING for the sox, too many times has this offense been stagnant, this has to change. We have to go back to getting on, moving them along, and driving them in.

That stinks of desperation, right there. And I don't think a desperation move is in order here. The truth of it all is that the Sox still made the playoffs, and showed that with Swisher having a horrible year, Konerko having a horrible first half, and TCQ getting hurt, they can still realistically think about competing in the AL Central.

Going after Taveras is a desperation move that would not help the Sox all that much. It is really sad that, given his speed, he cannot hit doubles worth a damn and can't get on base. He is bad, and he will hurt the Sox more than you think he will help.

As long as there is all this Taveras talk going on...anyone up for Joey Gathright still?

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 10:28 PM
That stinks of desperation, right there. And I don't think a desperation move is in order here. The truth of it all is that the Sox still made the playoffs, and showed that with Swisher having a horrible year, Konerko having a horrible first half, and TCQ getting hurt, they can still realistically think about competing in the AL Central.

Going after Taveras is a desperation move that would not help the Sox all that much. It is really sad that, given his speed, he cannot hit doubles worth a damn and can't get on base. He is bad, and he will hurt the Sox more than you think he will help.

As long as there is all this Taveras talk going on...anyone up for Joey Gathright still?

:o::D::D::D:

.263/.328/.304.

Greatest player alive.

I really wish I didn't have some unforeseen love for him, because he's really not good. I mean outside of getting on-base, hitting consistently and playing good defense he's awesome.

Jerome
10-08-2008, 11:12 PM
There's this guy who played on Colorado last year, I think he could be a good leadoff for us and probably wouldn't command too much in a trade...
:dtroll:

SteveFakeBlood
10-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Everyone's so obsessed with trading Konerko and has been seemingly ever since we re-signed him. There are a lot of reasons he won't be traded and why I don't want to see him traded.

Why he won't be traded:

1. He's a 32-year-old slow-footed power hitter coming off a bad season with multiple injuries who can't play anywhere except 1B- and is adequate there, not great.
2. He has a no-trade clause.
3. He has a big contract with two years left on it.

Now here's why I want to keep him:

1. He's the Team Captain. I like OBP, I think it's a great stat and is pretty important to consider when picking up players. And Konerko still had a decent OBP even in a ****ty season, but that's not my point... my point is- when a guy is your team captain and is acknowledged as an important club house leader, maybe you shouldn't be so anxious to trade him for anything and everything.

2. He's the longest tenured White Sox player: he's been here for 10 seasons. He's second in franchise history in home runs and was the ALCS MVP, he was essentially the player spokesperson for the 2005 team.

3. HE HAS LOW TRADE VALUE. REPEAT LOW TRADE VALUE. Let's consider this before we throw one of the best Sox players of my lifetime in the trash, OK? (Yes, this means we won't get Chone Figgins for him, sorry to all those who believe that fantasy).


Just sayin'.

~Steve

guillensdisciple
10-09-2008, 12:29 AM
That stinks of desperation, right there. And I don't think a desperation move is in order here. The truth of it all is that the Sox still made the playoffs, and showed that with Swisher having a horrible year, Konerko having a horrible first half, and TCQ getting hurt, they can still realistically think about competing in the AL Central.

Going after Taveras is a desperation move that would not help the Sox all that much. It is really sad that, given his speed, he cannot hit doubles worth a damn and can't get on base. He is bad, and he will hurt the Sox more than you think he will help.

As long as there is all this Taveras talk going on...anyone up for Joey Gathright still?

Do you honestly believe the Central will be as big a mess as it was in the beginning of the year? The Tigers won't be that bad and neither will the Indians. The White Sox will need to get better if they want to compete, that kind of thinking might lead to a third or fourth place finish next year.

BadBobbyJenks
10-09-2008, 01:14 AM
Everyone's so obsessed with trading Konerko and has been seemingly ever since we re-signed him. There are a lot of reasons he won't be traded and why I don't want to see him traded.

Why he won't be traded:

1. He's a 32-year-old slow-footed power hitter coming off a bad season with multiple injuries who can't play anywhere except 1B- and is adequate there, not great.
2. He has a no-trade clause.
3. He has a big contract with two years left on it.

~Steve

It is not a big contract at all actually. Not saying that I am for or against trading Paulie, but those saying he is not movable because of his contract are wrong.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 09:18 AM
Do you honestly believe the Central will be as big a mess as it was in the beginning of the year? The Tigers won't be that bad and neither will the Indians. The White Sox will need to get better if they want to compete, that kind of thinking might lead to a third or fourth place finish next year.

Why?

Do the Tigers have 3 starters coming from somewhere? Is Fatty going to show up in better shape next spring? Will dumb-dumb not be a 40 year old HR hitter without the benefit of his magic beans? Is Fernando Rodney a closer suddenly? After back to back sub-30 game seasons, has Zumaya sold his Guitar Hero?

I don't see any reason to believe the Tigers are going to be significantly better until they make a series of moves to prove it.

As far as Cleveland, CC is gone. Their IF of Garko, Carrol, Peralta and Marte is below average. Hafner and Victor Martinez may be healthy - and that would help. But their corners are still Gutierrez and Francisco - neither of whom are any good.

The Cleveland Sizemores are fine - but I have yet to see proof they are going to be significantly better. Speaking of crappy bullpens and limited starting rotations, their #3 is Jeremy Sowers. I'll take my chances.

I'd be more worries about the Twins AGAIN than either Detroit or Cleveland.

oeo
10-09-2008, 09:21 AM
Do you honestly believe the Central will be as big a mess as it was in the beginning of the year? The Tigers won't be that bad and neither will the Indians. The White Sox will need to get better if they want to compete, that kind of thinking might lead to a third or fourth place finish next year.

The Tigers are actually quite a mess. Their rotation and bullpen is in shambles. Their lineup is questionable, as well. Who is in LF, SS, C? They're quite old in other places, as well: Polanco, Sheffield, and Ordonez. Also, Inge is supposed to be back at 3B...so I don't know what that means for Carlos Guillen, and Leyland doesn't trust the guy who was catching at the end of the season (Ryan?) and would rather have a veteran.

Unless they plan on getting a lot of help from their farm system next year, I wouldn't expect a very good team. I'm sure Dombrowski will improve them, but I'm not so sure they will be contending.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 10:10 AM
Unless they plan on getting a lot of help from their farm system next year

Which they traded most of to get Fatty Fat Fat. Porcello isn't close. They have a few MI options, but only Iorg might be ready this year.

Detroit has a lot of work to do to get back to being a .500 team - much more than we did last off season. Verlander's regression this year really puts them in a potentially bad spot. He's their #1. 50 yr old Kennry Rogers is #2. Then it goes way down hill.

Oh, and did I mention that Miguel Cabrerra is fat?

gr8mexico
10-09-2008, 10:10 AM
What about Bobby Abreu? Career .405 OBP ,.300 AVG and steals around 20 bases a year. The Sox would need to trade Jermaine Dye first. Could Abreu be a good number 2 hitter?

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-09-2008, 10:25 AM
Maybe the Tigers and Indians won't be any better next season, but that doesn't make the White Sox a good team. The offense is completely one-dimensional. The Sox hit 235 homers, by far the most in the majors, and only finished sixth in runs scored. The Twinkies hit less than half as many homers, but scored 18 more runs. Of those 235 homers, 133 came with nobody on base. If we don't get a home run, it takes four hits to score a run. Our big sluggers aren't even that good at drawing walks, ranking in the bottom half in the majors. Our offense is extremely inconsistent; if we're down by a run late in the game, everybody is trying to be the hero and hit the solo homer. Thome will be 39 next year; he's not going to have a sudden resurgence offensively (at least, not naturally). His numbers have gotten worse each year he's been here, and that trend will only continue. Meanwhile, Dye will be 35 and can't cover ground in RF like he used to, and while he had a better season than last year, he's going to start to break down sooner or later. Konerko had his worst season since 2003; perhaps he'll bounce back, but maybe not.

The point of all this is to illustrate just how slow and home run oriented our team is. So for all of those who criticized my comments about trying to acquire players, what would you suggest? Do you really think this team is fine, and only needs a minor adjustment? Do you believe that the players assembled by the Sox can compete with Boston, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, etc. for a championship?

kittle42
10-09-2008, 11:22 AM
What about Bobby Abreu? Career .405 OBP ,.300 AVG and steals around 20 bases a year. The Sox would need to trade Jermaine Dye first. Could Abreu be a good number 2 hitter?

Now this idea, I actually could be a fan of.

oeo
10-09-2008, 11:22 AM
What about Bobby Abreu? Career .405 OBP ,.300 AVG and steals around 20 bases a year. The Sox would need to trade Jermaine Dye first. Could Abreu be a good number 2 hitter?

You trade Dye to open up an outfield spot, and give us more flexibility in terms of having both Konerko and Swisher on the same team. Signing Abreu puts us in the same spot. Pass...

Dye and Swisher/Konerko need to be dealt before I'd be excited about Bobby Abreu.

thedudeabides
10-09-2008, 11:27 AM
The Tigers are actually quite a mess. Their rotation and bullpen is in shambles. Their lineup is questionable, as well. Who is in LF, SS, C? They're quite old in other places, as well: Polanco, Sheffield, and Ordonez. Also, Inge is supposed to be back at 3B...so I don't know what that means for Carlos Guillen, and Leyland doesn't trust the guy who was catching at the end of the season (Ryan?) and would rather have a veteran.

Unless they plan on getting a lot of help from their farm system next year, I wouldn't expect a very good team. I'm sure Dombrowski will improve them, but I'm not so sure they will be contending.

I've heard they want to move him to left, which would be his fourth position in three years.

GAsoxfan
10-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Since defensive prowess doesn't seem to be a requirement to play CF for the Sox, how about Randy Winn? He's mainly been a RF lately, but he's played some center in the past, plus he could lead off. He has a career .347 OBP, and even though he's not a burner, he'll swipe about 20 bases a year.

I'm not sure what the Giants would want for him, but their lineup desperately needs power (as evidenced by their team .382 SLG%), which is something the Sox have plenty of, so maybe a deal could be worked out.

I know he may not be the ideal solution to the CF/lead off issues, but considering the FA market and the Sox trading chips, Winn might be a good option.

Lefty34
10-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Maybe the Tigers and Indians won't be any better next season, but that doesn't make the White Sox a good team. The offense is completely one-dimensional. The Sox hit 235 homers, by far the most in the majors, and only finished sixth in runs scored. The Twinkies hit less than half as many homers, but scored 18 more runs. Of those 235 homers, 133 came with nobody on base. If we don't get a home run, it takes four hits to score a run. Our big sluggers aren't even that good at drawing walks, ranking in the bottom half in the majors. Our offense is extremely inconsistent; if we're down by a run late in the game, everybody is trying to be the hero and hit the solo homer. Thome will be 39 next year; he's not going to have a sudden resurgence offensively (at least, not naturally). His numbers have gotten worse each year he's been here, and that trend will only continue. Meanwhile, Dye will be 35 and can't cover ground in RF like he used to, and while he had a better season than last year, he's going to start to break down sooner or later. Konerko had his worst season since 2003; perhaps he'll bounce back, but maybe not.

The point of all this is to illustrate just how slow and home run oriented our team is. So for all of those who criticized my comments about trying to acquire players, what would you suggest? Do you really think this team is fine, and only needs a minor adjustment? Do you believe that the players assembled by the Sox can compete with Boston, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, etc. for a championship?

You are right, things need to change. The Sox were in the middle of the league in terms of Team OBP, yet first in SLG. I would gladly like to see those roles reversed, and then having Swisher and Konerko perform to their actual abilities (Swisher for the whole season, Konerko for the first half), we will have a potent team.

You know what also sucks? We lead the AL in GDP; not just the AL, but the entire MLB. That sucks. I know those will come with our slow-footed sluggers, but, as people mentioned before, there was a time when our hitters (Konerko and Uribe especially) would be able to change their swings to avoid hitting into DP's or striking out, and now they miraculously don't (i.e. fire Greg Walker, that piece of ****).

But about trying to acquire other players, some of them mentioned in this thread are just all-out bad, their only endearing quality being speed (Eckstein, Pierre, Taveras and Gathright:tongue:). And if the only guys with speed worth getting would require trading of Danks or Floyd, I would not do it, seeing as how they are the future of our pitching staff. Not to mention the lack of flexibility this team has contract and trade value-wise.

And why is everyone talking about trading Swish or saying that "Swisher has to go"?

DaveFeelsRight
10-09-2008, 12:52 PM
And why is everyone talking about trading Swish or saying that "Swisher has to go"?it boggles my mind. seriously

kittle42
10-09-2008, 12:55 PM
And why is everyone talking about trading Swish or saying that "Swisher has to go"?

Knee-jerk impatience.

Lefty34
10-09-2008, 01:11 PM
it boggles my mind. seriously

Knee-jerk impatience.


Ok cool, nice to know that there are people out there fighting the good fight...lol.

Nellie_Fox
10-09-2008, 02:03 PM
... fire Greg Walker, that piece of ****You really need to keep some perspective. To call someone a piece of **** because you don't like the results of his work is way over the top.

btrain929
10-09-2008, 02:10 PM
Instead of focusing on the big fish, I'll take a look at some role players:

-If Toby's option isn't picked up, I'd like to see Josh Bard or Miguel Olivo as our backup catcher. Olivo especially, since he can provide some pop and throw runners out with his cannon. Plus he's pretty young.
-Since Uribe is a FA, utility IF'ers/guys for the bench that are FA's can be Willie Bloomquist, Jerry Hairston Jr, and Ramon Vazquez. They can play multiple positions, aren't starters, and should come cheap.

As I said in a different thread, these guys/positions won't make or break the '09 season, but these are guys that caught my eye that have a good chance to be above average as a role player, and could be had for a cheap price.

champagne030
10-09-2008, 02:31 PM
And why is everyone talking about trading Swish or saying that "Swisher has to go"?

He was so bad this year that Ozzie was forced to bench him in favor of a schmuck with 4000 minor league AB's.

Personally, I'd put him on the market and listen to offers, but I wouldn't just dump him for nothing. I would like to believe he rebounds to around .250/.370/.850. Then he would earn his salary.

oeo
10-09-2008, 02:38 PM
If Toby's option isn't picked up, I'd like to see Josh Bard or Miguel Olivo as our backup catcher. Olivo especially, since he can provide some pop and throw runners out with his cannon. Plus he's pretty young.

The Royals have an option of their own on Olivo. As for Bard: I'd rather just give Lucy the job.

btrain929
10-09-2008, 02:40 PM
The Royals have an option of their own on Olivo. As for Bard: I'd rather just give Lucy the job.

Yeah, I just heard towards the end of the year Olivo wasn't too happy with the situation there. Since it's a mutual option with KC, I figured he wouldn't be brought back. Now that I think of it, he might not be too happy coming here, knowing he wouldn't get as much playing time as he did in KC; he knows AJ will be the main man here. Eh, I still want him here.

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-09-2008, 02:40 PM
He was so bad this year that Ozzie was forced to bench him in favor of a schmuck with 4000 minor league AB's.

Personally, I'd put him on the market and listen to offers, but I wouldn't just dump him for nothing. I would like to believe he rebounds to around .250/.370/.850. Then he would earn his salary.

I mostly agree. I thought at the time -- and still think -- that the Swisher deal was a bad move. But now that we have him, we shouldn't sell low. If KW can find a taker that is willing to give us close to pre-2008 value for Swisher, I'd take it. There is a limited number of positions on the field, and we need to improve at some of them, so we need to at least consider trading Swisher. However, we shouldn't just give up on him and take junk in return.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 02:41 PM
Maybe the Tigers and Indians won't be any better next season, but that doesn't make the White Sox a good team.

Winning our division this year does. Being 6th in the AL and 11th in MLB in ERA (in a hitters park in the AL) does. Having a rotation with a good balance of young guys who have already proven 15+ win, sub 4.00 ERA capability, along with Buehrle and Javy does. Having solid run producers does. Having young stars like Alexei and Carlos does. This team IS a good team. Great? Nope - but good? Yes.

The offense is completely one-dimensional. The Sox hit 235 homers, by far the most in the majors, and only finished sixth in runs scored.

So? What's the problem? 6th in runs scored, and 11th in ERA. That's damn good. List off all the teams who were better in both runs scored, and ERA than us. I'll help - Boston and the Cubs. The Cubs are an NL team in a more neutral park. And the Red Sox have a payroll that SHOULD be that good.

THis IS a good team - and the statistics prove that as do the results and as do watching the games.

The Twinkies hit less than half as many homers, but scored 18 more runs. Of those 235 homers, 133 came with nobody on base.

If the Twins had to play in USCF 81 times a year, they'd be struggling to stay out of last place. Nice example - but it doesn't apply.

If we don't get a home run, it takes four hits to score a run.

Holy untrue hyperbole batman!!!!

Our big sluggers aren't even that good at drawing walks

If that were true, it would add to your case - but it is not. Thome is 6th in the AL in BB. Swisher is 8th. Carlos was 20th - despite playing 130 games. Konerko was 25th despite missing 40 games. Our big sluggers draw walks very well. They aren't the problem.


Thome will be 39 next year; he's not going to have a sudden resurgence offensively (at least, not naturally).

The first half is ridiculous. He needs no resurgence. If he continues to do what he did this year, that would be WONDERFUL. And your second part is complete crap. It's a ****ty thing to even imply anything unnatural about how Jim has done it. That's bully**** Rocky. Complete bull****.


Meanwhile, Dye will be 35 and can't cover ground in RF like he used to, and while he had a better season than last year, he's going to start to break down sooner or later.

Dye was fine this year. Your desire to paint his 2009 performance in a negative light is pointless.

Konerko had his worst season since 2003;

His least healthy season also. Did you notice when he came back and was healthy he hit very very well? Or were you too busy pissing and moaning about imaginary future badness or about walk rates that don't exist?

The point of all this is to illustrate just how slow and home run oriented our team is.

Homerun oriented enough to make the playoffs, be 6th in all of baseball in runs scored, and most importantly, to make the playoffs.

So for all of those who criticized my comments about trying to acquire players what would you suggest?

That we acquire players who fit the style of ball we need to play in the park we are in, rather than go out and get guys just because they are fast.


Do you really think this team is fine, and only needs a minor adjustment? Do you believe that the players assembled by the Sox can compete with Boston, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, etc. for a championship?

Yes - just a minor adjustment. We did compete with Boston, Tampa and Anaheim this year. We had a major injury losing CQ with a month left to go. We lost Jose after the trade deadline when it was too late to do anything. Why fix what isn't broken, if you measure broken in any meaningful way?

Speed is nice. It's great to have. But I want it in the context of guys who do more than just run. They need to hit also. And they need to be worth the price we'd pay for them in terms of salary and what we'd give up. Trading top prospects from our farm or proven veteran performers (like PK or Dye) for Figgins would be a waste. So would paying 12mm a year for Orlando Hudson. Slap and Tickle won't work for this team. We'd get killed at home, and still be mediocre on the road. Fix the problem we have - Uribe shouldn't play everyday. Griffey/Swisher can't play CF, we need a 5th starter since Jose is done. But don't overreact to this speed thing just because it is the buzzword of the day and go out and get a bunch of fleas who run fast.

hi im skot
10-09-2008, 02:45 PM
jabrch is king.
:tiphat:

oeo
10-09-2008, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I just heard towards the end of the year Olivo wasn't too happy with the situation there. Since it's a mutual option with KC, I figured he wouldn't be brought back. Now that I think of it, he might not be too happy coming here, knowing he wouldn't get as much playing time as he did in KC; he knows AJ will be the main man here. Eh, I still want him here.

Well, if Olivo thinks he's going to get good playing time anywhere, he's out of his mind (which I'm fairly certain he's nuts, anyway).

If the Sox can snag him, I'd love to have him back. Good defense, some pop, not slow as molasses...he's like the anti-Toby. Borderline insane, but we've put up with worse.

Otherwise, I don't see the hurt in giving the job to Lucy. He's like Toby Hall, but with defense.

btrain929
10-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Well, if Olivo thinks he's going to get good playing time anywhere, he's out of his mind (which I'm fairly certain he's nuts, anyway).

If the Sox can snag him, I'd love to have him back. Good defense, some pop, not slow as molasses...he's like the anti-Toby. Borderline insane, but we've put up with worse.

Otherwise, I don't see the hurt in giving the job to Lucy. He's like Toby Hall, but with defense.

You call it insane, I call it passion and swagger.

thedudeabides
10-09-2008, 02:55 PM
Well, if Olivo thinks he's going to get good playing time anywhere, he's out of his mind (which I'm fairly certain he's nuts, anyway).

If the Sox can snag him, I'd love to have him back. Good defense, some pop, not slow as molasses...he's like the anti-Toby. Borderline insane, but we've put up with worse.

Otherwise, I don't see the hurt in giving the job to Lucy. He's like Toby Hall, but with defense.

I can't see Olivo coming back. He was not well liked by management here the first time. There's a reason he is a 29 year old catcher with a lot of natural skills that has already been on 5 teams.

He has been known not to be a very good clubhouse guy and I've heard he cannot call a game at all.

And outside of some homerun power, he brings very little to the table offensively. He is less patient than Uribe and strikes out a ton.

oeo
10-09-2008, 02:58 PM
I can't see Olivo coming back. He was not well liked by management here the first time. There's a reason he is a 29 year old catcher with a lot of natural skills that has already been on 5 teams.

He's not very good?

He has been known not to be a very good clubhouse guy and I've heard he cannot call a game at all.I haven't heard this (or the management questions). All I remember is that commercial in 2004 when Ozzie says, "Miguel Olivo is a crazy man!"

And outside of some homerun power, he brings very little to the table offensively. He is less patient than Uribe and strikes out a ton.Well, he wouldn't be coming here for his offense.

btrain929
10-09-2008, 03:00 PM
Well, he wouldn't be coming here for his offense.

And what little he brings to the table offensively, is still more than what Toby or Lucy can bring to the table.

Lefty34
10-09-2008, 03:12 PM
You really need to keep some perspective. To call someone a piece of **** because you don't like the results of his work is way over the top.

Oh, please excuse me, I meant this: Greg Walker was a horrible hitting coach for a majority of the season. Walker = piece of **** hitting coach. Better?

Lip Man 1
10-09-2008, 04:35 PM
OEO:

When he was traded Ozzie made a comment in the newspapers along the lines of, 'some of our pitchers didn't like throwing to him.'

Said pitchers were never named so I have no idea if any of them are still with the team.

Lip

DaveFeelsRight
10-09-2008, 05:56 PM
according to chuck garfien......

http://chicago.comcastsportsnet.com/soxdrawer.asp

DickAllen72
10-09-2008, 06:05 PM
according to chuck garfien......

http://chicago.comcastsportsnet.com/soxdrawer.asp
I'd love for the Sox to get Ichiro, but they'd never win a biding war to get him. They just don't have the players in their system to outbid other teams for him, unless they give up guys like Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, etc, in which case they'd be coming out behind on the deal.

guillensdisciple
10-09-2008, 06:26 PM
I mentioned it earlier on this thread and so did someone else, but Kelly Johnson would be one hell of a player the White Sox could get off the cheap to fill in at second.

.287 Batting Average, 11 stolen bases, 157 hits, 39 doubles, .349 on base percentage. Certainly worthy of the sox attention especially since he might come on the cheap.

Take back what I said about Willy, he just doesn't get on enough to use the great speed he possessess, so that might be a waste, especially with the hitting coach we have.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 06:28 PM
I mentioned it earlier on this thread and so did someone else, but Kelly Johnson would be one hell of a player the White Sox could get off the cheap to fill in at second.

.287 Batting Average, 11 stolen bases, 157 hits, 39 doubles, .349 on base percentage. Certainly worthy of the sox attention especially since he might come on the cheap.

Take back what I said about Willy, he just doesn't get on enough to use the great speed he possessess, so that might be a waste, especially with the hitting coach we have.
Why would he come on the cheap?

MHOUSE
10-09-2008, 08:10 PM
I don't think Figgins is going to happen. Even if he has worn out their management, the Angels aren't going to just dump a commodity that every team in the league will be after. I could see them taking a flier on Konerko, but only for mid-level prospects and lots of cash. I fear that we are very very stuck with this roster and KW will need to be at his creative best to make any major changes.

That said, I think we should give Swish another shot. We traded for him at high value, it would be bad to dump him now at his lowest value. I was just as fed up with him as anyone, but if anything wait until July 30, 2009. Hudson is a solid player, but I think we need to focus on getting younger. He's 31 and is going to need at least a 3-year deal. I would much rather sift through the 2nd-tier players around the league and find someone under the radar a-la Quentin. Maybe someone like Ronny Cedeno (not him per se), but someone like that who is young, can play second or short, but has more established players blocking him on a contender. In that vein, I wouldn't mind Coco Crisp if he could be had for cheap. Ellsbury has taken over CF there and I've always thought he was solid defensively and a decent hitter, but I'm sure some here will jump all over that thought!

As far as any thoughts of trading Floyd, give me a break. Floyd and Danks are the future of our rotation and they need to be untouchable. Our starting staff was the strength of this club all season and down the stretch. We need to keep them together and focus on replacing Contreras, not dealing for Cano. I don't want him dropping pop-ups behind our pitchers.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 10:49 PM
I could see them taking a flier on Konerko, but only for mid-level prospects and lots of cash.

So you think Konerko's value is as a salary dump? You must be kidding.

esbrechtel
10-10-2008, 08:03 AM
When did Chone Figgins become a future hall of famer?:scratch: WSI talks about this guy like he is god's gift to baseball....

He only had 34 steals last year and he struck out 80 times, He is pretty good but he's not AMAZING

btrain929
10-10-2008, 08:07 AM
When did Chone Figgins become a future hall of famer?:scratch: WSI talks about this guy like he is god's gift to baseball....

He only had 34 steals last year and he struck out 80 times, He is pretty good but he's not AMAZING

He can leadoff, steal bases, and can play 3B. Our team is in desperate need of all 3 of those. Hall of famer? No. A player who can drastically improve our team? I believe so.

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm not even sure that Ichiro will be worth his contract in future years considering his age and decline this year. But, in addition to that the Sox would have to give a real big package of players to Seattle.

I say forget about it.

guillensdisciple
10-10-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm not even sure that Ichiro will be worth his contract in future years considering his age and decline this year. But, in addition to that the Sox would have to give a real big package of players to Seattle.

I say forget about it.

won't happen, they will ask for too much and we won't get enough in return. A very stupid trade on the sox part.

palehozenychicty
10-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Winning our division this year does. Being 6th in the AL and 11th in MLB in ERA (in a hitters park in the AL) does. Having a rotation with a good balance of young guys who have already proven 15+ win, sub 4.00 ERA capability, along with Buehrle and Javy does. Having solid run producers does. Having young stars like Alexei and Carlos does. This team IS a good team. Great? Nope - but good? Yes.



So? What's the problem? 6th in runs scored, and 11th in ERA. That's damn good. List off all the teams who were better in both runs scored, and ERA than us. I'll help - Boston and the Cubs. The Cubs are an NL team in a more neutral park. And the Red Sox have a payroll that SHOULD be that good.

THis IS a good team - and the statistics prove that as do the results and as do watching the games.



If the Twins had to play in USCF 81 times a year, they'd be struggling to stay out of last place. Nice example - but it doesn't apply.



Holy untrue hyperbole batman!!!!



If that were true, it would add to your case - but it is not. Thome is 6th in the AL in BB. Swisher is 8th. Carlos was 20th - despite playing 130 games. Konerko was 25th despite missing 40 games. Our big sluggers draw walks very well. They aren't the problem.




The first half is ridiculous. He needs no resurgence. If he continues to do what he did this year, that would be WONDERFUL. And your second part is complete crap. It's a ****ty thing to even imply anything unnatural about how Jim has done it. That's bully**** Rocky. Complete bull****.




Dye was fine this year. Your desire to paint his 2009 performance in a negative light is pointless.



His least healthy season also. Did you notice when he came back and was healthy he hit very very well? Or were you too busy pissing and moaning about imaginary future badness or about walk rates that don't exist?



Homerun oriented enough to make the playoffs, be 6th in all of baseball in runs scored, and most importantly, to make the playoffs.



That we acquire players who fit the style of ball we need to play in the park we are in, rather than go out and get guys just because they are fast.




Yes - just a minor adjustment. We did compete with Boston, Tampa and Anaheim this year. We had a major injury losing CQ with a month left to go. We lost Jose after the trade deadline when it was too late to do anything. Why fix what isn't broken, if you measure broken in any meaningful way?

Speed is nice. It's great to have. But I want it in the context of guys who do more than just run. They need to hit also. And they need to be worth the price we'd pay for them in terms of salary and what we'd give up. Trading top prospects from our farm or proven veteran performers (like PK or Dye) for Figgins would be a waste. So would paying 12mm a year for Orlando Hudson. Slap and Tickle won't work for this team. We'd get killed at home, and still be mediocre on the road. Fix the problem we have - Uribe shouldn't play everyday. Griffey/Swisher can't play CF, we need a 5th starter since Jose is done. But don't overreact to this speed thing just because it is the buzzword of the day and go out and get a bunch of fleas who run fast.

I think you both have valid points, but how often did the Sox this year kill a number of games simply because they're just a slow, plodding team? It affects the offense and defense. More than anybody can count. The team will never tailor the lineup to have no power. That is foolish.

They should be able to score sometimes without hitting three-four singles is the argument, and it's valid. It's hard to win consistently when you have to hit homers as the only method of scoring. The Phils hit a lot of homers as well, and play in a smaller bandbox than the Cell.

Their lineup, though, is athletic enough to run the bases well and score with just a couple of good knocks. They bunt reasonably well and steal at a moderate rate.

That is what people here are looking to improve. Other than Howard, their defensive range is also very strong in the infield, and Victorino covers a lot of ground in center to deflank Burrell and Werth.

Yeah, the team made the playoffs, and the injuries hurt. I think the team does need a little bit of tinkering, just to balance themselves out. It was clear in the Tampa series that the Sox had trouble with Tampa's athleticism, and they couldn't take advantage of opportunities presented in the first two games because they don't have the personnel to do so.

Before the 1990s, the swiftest teams with a little power in the middle usually won e.g. The Royals, Twins, Giants, A's, Reds. So it's a trend, but there's historical truth to it.

jabrch
10-10-2008, 01:56 PM
I think you both have valid points, but how often did the Sox this year kill a number of games simply because they're just a slow, plodding team?

They lost games because they didn't hit well sometimes. Slow doesn't matter as much if you hit well.

Konerko is slow - but if he hits well, nobody should care about his speed. Same is true for AJ. Same is true for Thome. Same is true for anyone. Uribe is slow - and hits poorly.

I just don't believe that the answer is a guy like Chone Figgins. If he is not hitting more than .275 and obp something like .330-.340 with no power, what's the benefit? If he hits .310 and has an obo about .380, that's a different story. If he does that, then I don't care how fast he is, I can live with him.

I like guys who can steal bases, and who can take extra bases. But only if their primary skill is they can hit.

tm1119
10-10-2008, 02:07 PM
Havent read through the whole thread, but heres who I would like us to see us make a run at.

1. Fast leadoff CF- Willy Taveras or Juan Pierre. Both have fallen out of favor with their current teams, but would fit in great here and would cost very little to trade for.
2. Vet 2B- Eckstein, Loretta, Hairston Jr. Again not much but would be an upgrade over what we have and wouldnt cost much to aquire.
3. This 1 is a lot less realistic but, trade Javy for Garret Atkins. The Rockies have already made it known that they are lookin for pitching and they have Ian Stewart, former #1 pick, who needs a spot in their lineup. We would then replace Javy by going out and signing a vet pitcher. Lowe, Garland, Oliver Perez, Rndy Johnson(?)

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 02:11 PM
Havent read through the whole thread, but heres who I would like us to see us make a run at.

1. Fast leadoff CF- Willy Taveras or Juan Pierre. Both have fallen out of favor with their current teams, but would fit in great here and would cost very little to trade for.
2. Vet 2B- Eckstein, Loretta, Hairston Jr. Again not much but would be an upgrade over what we have and wouldnt cost much to aquire.
3. This 1 is a lot less realistic but, trade Javy for Garret Atkins. The Rockies have already made it known that they are lookin for pitching and they have Ian Stewart, former #1 pick, who needs a spot in their lineup. We would then replace Javy by going out and signing a vet pitcher. Lowe, Garland, Oliver Perez, Rndy Johnson(?)
1. Taveras and Pierre can't hit.
2. Those guys are terrible. Rather stick with Getz.
3. That would be a terrible, horrible, no good trade. Atkins was abysmal away from home and his walk rate plummeted this season. RJ would never come here and Perez is not good. Garland will not come back either and Lowe is a Boras client.

Konerko05
10-10-2008, 02:25 PM
Havent read through the whole thread, but heres who I would like us to see us make a run at.

1. Fast leadoff CF- Willy Taveras or Juan Pierre. Both have fallen out of favor with their current teams, but would fit in great here and would cost very little to trade for.
2. Vet 2B- Eckstein, Loretta, Hairston Jr. Again not much but would be an upgrade over what we have and wouldnt cost much to aquire.
3. This 1 is a lot less realistic but, trade Javy for Garret Atkins. The Rockies have already made it known that they are lookin for pitching and they have Ian Stewart, former #1 pick, who needs a spot in their lineup. We would then replace Javy by going out and signing a vet pitcher. Lowe, Garland, Oliver Perez, Rndy Johnson(?)

1. A lead off hitter's main attribute should be the ability to get on base. Pierre hasn't posted an OBP above .331 since 2004.

Taveras posted an OBP of .308 last year, while somehow managing to slug below .300. That is awful. Worse than Juan Uribe awful.

Everyone is so quick to get speed guys, but ignoring what dreadful hitters they are.

2. Loretta and Hairston Jr. are decent options to look at. I'm also not positive they would be substantial upgrades over Chris Getz.

3. Garret Atkins' 2008 line away from Coors Field.. .233/.278/.383.

Konerko05
10-10-2008, 02:27 PM
I basically just had the same exact post as Grebeck. Sorry, I had to let the dog out while making my post so I never saw your's.

jabrch
10-10-2008, 02:43 PM
1. A lead off hitter's main attribute should be the ability to get on base. Pierre hasn't posted an OBP above .331 since 2004.

.331 - that's a very arbitrary number. What's the significance of it? Let's take a round number, and a higher one, with still very little significance, say .350. To get from where he was this year (.327) to .350, he would need 10 extra times on base. Pierre scored 44 runs in his 128 H+BB for a run ratio of 34%. So his 10 extra times on base translate to a whopping 3.4 runs over the course of 162. Add in some peripheral benefits of pitches and whatever else. You still aren't talking about anything significant.

There is very little difference between JP and someone you would say is a better leadoff hitter because they have a higher OBP.

I want a guy at the top of the order who can hit. I'm tired of betting the other guy makes a mistake. Get guys who can hit their own way on at the top of the order.

Konerko05
10-10-2008, 02:52 PM
.331 - that's a very arbitrary number. What's the significance of it? Let's take a round number, and a higher one, with still very little significance, say .350. To get from where he was this year (.327) to .350, he would need 10 extra times on base. Pierre scored 44 runs in his 128 H+BB for a run ratio of 34%. So his 10 extra times on base translate to a whopping 3.4 runs over the course of 162. Add in some peripheral benefits of pitches and whatever else. You still aren't talking about anything significant.

There is very little difference between JP and someone you would say is a better leadoff hitter because they have a higher OBP.

I want a guy at the top of the order who can hit. I'm tired of betting the other guy makes a mistake. Get guys who can hit their own way on at the top of the order.

The significance is that's his highest OBP since 2004. I'm not really sure what your argument is about that.

If we are going to have sluggers from 3-6, the leadoff hitter's main goal is to get on base for those sluggers. How many solo homeruns did the Sox have last year? It sounds like you want Alfonso Soriano as the leadoff hitter.

jabrch
10-10-2008, 03:01 PM
The significance is that's his highest OBP since 2004. I'm not really sure what your argument is about that.

If we are going to have sluggers from 3-6, the leadoff hitter's main goal is to get on base for those sluggers. How many solo homeruns did the Sox have last year? It sounds like you want Alfonso Soriano as the leadoff hitter.

So if his OBP is .350, that equartes to 3.4 runs scored over the course of the season. So what?

Get me a guy who can hit - and he will drive in more runs than looking for a guy who is walking more. This team walks just fine, it needs guys who hit better. Hits score runs, hitters hit no matter what is thrown. Walkers capitalize on mistakes.

If I had my choice between Soriano and Pierre, and there were no contracts or salaries, you damn well bet I want Soriano. I don't want either - cuz neither field worth a **** and neither are priced correctly in my eyes. But if I have to take one of them, and we aren't talking about contracts, give me the more productive one - Soriano.

I'd rather have a guy who will hit .320 than either one of them, but if my choice is a guy who will hit about .280/.340/.550 or a guy who hits about .290/.330/.350, this isn't much a debate.

We are shaving fractions of %s and trying to make them sound significant. The difference between a .330 obp and a .360 obp over a 600 PA season is 18 times on base. For a leadoff hitter, who isn't driving in many runs, that's about 6-8 runs over 162 games. Big deal...