PDA

View Full Version : Pitching Staff


Metalthrasher442
10-06-2008, 07:57 PM
What will the five man rotation look like next year??

Sorry I'm getting all giddy already. Go Danks! Go Floyd!

T-Bag
10-06-2008, 07:59 PM
Danks, Floyd, Buehrle (in whatever order)
then

Javy (he will be back)

Clayton or Broadway if no veteran is signed.

Bucky F. Dent
10-06-2008, 08:03 PM
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, FA, Richard

JB98
10-06-2008, 08:03 PM
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, free agent, Vazquez

T-Bag
10-06-2008, 08:04 PM
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, FA, Richard

Where will Javy be? I don't see them trading him, he will be a fine 4/5 starter. Yes he makes crap load of money hence the reason no trade so we will have him.

sox1970
10-06-2008, 08:04 PM
Danks, Floyd, Buehrle (in whatever order)
then

Javy (he will be back)

Clayton or Broadway if no veteran is signed.

No way Broadway is in the plans as a starter.

I hope it's Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, FA

I want Richard in the pen and a spot starter. Logan and H Ramirez have to be gone. Enough of these two.

veeter
10-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, free agent, VazquezAgree. And I hope so.

T-Bag
10-06-2008, 08:07 PM
No way Broadway is in the plans as a starter.

I hope it's Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, FA

I want Richard in the pen and a spot starter. Logan and H Ramirez have to be gone. Enough of these two.


I like this plan.

34 Inch Stick
10-07-2008, 11:34 AM
Danks, Floyd, Buehrle (in whatever order)
then

Javy (he will be back)

Clayton or Broadway if no veteran is signed.

If it is like this, KW would have to be insane not to sign a cheap veteran as a backup plan. I like competition anyway, especially for rookies.

Tragg
10-07-2008, 11:42 AM
Richard pitched pretty well in the playoffs. Maybe the pen for 1 year, but he looks like a rotation guy to me.
What do the scouts say about him?

jabrch
10-07-2008, 11:45 AM
One thing we know - KW will look "under the radar" to find someone we aren't talking about. That may be for the rotation, or for the lineup. But I trust Kenny will do something creative that many of us aren't thinking of.

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-07-2008, 11:46 AM
I seem to have a different opinion than a lot of folks, but I'd like to see:

FA/trade acquisition, Danks, Buehrle, Floyd, Vazquez

I know we have pretty good pitching, but I think a top line starter could make more difference than some of the other moves Kenny might make. I firmly believe that pitching wins championships, and this way Vazquez could go back to Puerto Rico in October.

voodoochile
10-07-2008, 11:56 AM
Richard pitched pretty well in the playoffs. Maybe the pen for 1 year, but he looks like a rotation guy to me.
What do the scouts say about him?

Right, but the only reason he was on the club this year was due to necessity. He's not ready yet. They should sign a FA starter and put Richard in long relief or even let him start the season in AAA and continue to progress. He makes a nice backup plan if someone needs a rest, gets injured or falters (as history has shown to be the case more often than not for all teams).

Don't rush Richard, let him develop.

kjhanson
10-07-2008, 12:10 PM
This morning Joe Cowley had it looking like this:
MB, Gavin, Danks, Vazquez

For the fifth starter it would be a veteran retread providing competition to Clayton Richard. And if around the trade deadline we needed a cheap veteran starter and Contreras was healthy, don't be surprised to see him back on the team.

MHOUSE
10-09-2008, 09:07 PM
No surprises here. It will be Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, and Javy Vazquez. The only question is whether Richard will step in as the 5th starter or get beat out by a veteran starter. I'd like to add someone more established and let Richard work out of the bullpen for a year, but the FA market is awful. I don't want any part of Sheets or Lowe and Burnett is way out of our price range. It's going to be a retread/reclamation project to nurse us to the deadline, then if we're in it Kenny will pull the trigger on a stretch run trade.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-09-2008, 09:17 PM
I'd like to see Richard in the pen for at least a year. I think he could be tremendously valuable there, someone who can come in and pitch 2 or 3 innings. That would take a lot of stress off the rest of the pen. It seems like Richard is great for one time through the lineup.

That said, the rotation will be Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, a pitcher to be named later, and probably Vazquez (though I would prefer he is gone).

LoveYourSuit
10-09-2008, 09:24 PM
No way Broadway is in the plans as a starter.

I hope it's Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, FA

I want Richard in the pen and a spot starter. Logan and H Ramirez have to be gone. Enough of these two.


At Broadway to the list of epic 1st Round White Sox busts.

champagne030
10-09-2008, 09:30 PM
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Javy and Richard.

I'd try to get a vet and I assume KW will too, but the cost/risk will probably have him go with a youngster. And I wouldn't disagree, as long as we don't pass on a 1 year deal for a Byrd type for $3M. I wonder how much salary would be picked up by Cincinnati in a deal for Harang?

cwsfannick
10-09-2008, 09:49 PM
It would not surprise me if the Sox trade Javy in the offseason. He may burn up innings, but I think the Sox have soured on him. Considering what starting pitching is going for nowadays, Javy may be considered a bargain. Send him to a national league team on the east coast.

Rotation:
Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Richard & TBD

Rdy2PlayBall
10-09-2008, 09:54 PM
Is Contrerez can come back strong, I want Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Contrerez and then Vasquez. If Jose can't make a comeback, I will feel really bad for him because I have a feeling he really loves this team and wants to play... and screw that him being old thing, he started out pitching like our ace this year and just feel apart when he tried pitching with that injury. So... if the worst happens, give the ball to another free agent starter and if that can't happen, Richard is our only chance. :tongue:

kevingrt
10-09-2008, 09:56 PM
Nothing new.

Javy, Burly, Gavin, Danks, and hopefully Richard.

Personally I would rather see Richard then some old vet that has been around the block.

Now if we could get a top notch FA pitcher that would be nice but our money right now does not need to be focused on pitching. and we do not have that much money anyways.

But Kw could always pull off some weird trade. You never know.

ChiSoxGirl
10-09-2008, 10:01 PM
Is Contrerez can come back strong, I want Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Contrerez and then Vasquez. If Jose can't make a comeback, I will feel really bad for him because I have a feeling he really loves this team and wants to play... and screw that him being old thing, he started out pitching like our ace this year and just feel apart when he tried pitching with that injury. So... if the worst happens, give the ball to another free agent starter and if that can't happen, Richard is our only chance. :tongue:

I worked for a Podiatrist during college and one of the things I learned is that a ruptured/ton achilles tendon takes at least 12 months to heal from completely, and that's for non-athletes. I'm sure that for an athlete, the rehab. is obviously more intensive and demanding than it is on a non-athlete. I'd be amazed if Contreras pitched again before August 2009, if at all. Depending on how well the tendon heels, he may very well have thrown the last pitch of his career.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 10:03 PM
At Broadway to the list of epic 1st Round White Sox busts.
Huh?

Daver
10-09-2008, 10:12 PM
At Broadway to the list of epic 1st Round White Sox busts.

Yeah, every pitcher drafted should be able to throw a no hitter three years after being drafted.

guillensdisciple
10-09-2008, 10:22 PM
In order from first to fifth


Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Javy, and Richard/ some veteran off of free agency.

thedudeabides
10-09-2008, 10:23 PM
Nothing new.

Javy, Burly, Gavin, Danks, and hopefully Richard.

Personally I would rather see Richard then some old vet that has been around the block.

Now if we could get a top notch FA pitcher that would be nice but our money right now does not need to be focused on pitching. and we do not have that much money anyways.

But Kw could always pull off some weird trade. You never know.

A top notch free agent pitcher is not happening. I wouldn't mind seeing a cheaper veteran, the Paul Byrd types, with Richard waiting to take over when someone goes down, and they almost always do.

Richard did well this year, but I think he would be better suited for the bullpen for the time being. Hitters caught up to him the second or third time through, it even happened when he relieved Javy against TB. He just needs time to develop another pitch.

chisoxfanatic
10-09-2008, 11:26 PM
1. Buehrle
2. Danks
3. Floyd
4. Free Agent
5. Richard or someone else who makes some major noise during Spring Training

Bye bye, Vazquez. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 11:33 PM
1. Buehrle
2. Danks
3. Floyd
4. Free Agent
5. Richard or someone else who makes some major noise during Spring Training

Bye bye, Vazquez. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
So...why are we trading Vazquez? To make room for a no. 5 who will have to "make some major noise" in ST?

drewcifer
10-09-2008, 11:35 PM
So...why are we trading Vazquez? To make room for a no. 5 who will have to "make some major noise" in ST?

Because he is expensive and he sucks? :dunno: He can't step up? He doesn't respond to motivation? $11,499, 997 other reasons....

Let's hope she's right.

chisoxfanatic
10-09-2008, 11:38 PM
So...why are we trading Vazquez? To make room for a no. 5 who will have to "make some major noise" in ST?
Right now, I see Richard as that #5 starter, and he'd be much better than Javy. I want Javy as far away from the pitching staff as possible. Every time I watch him, I have to ingest a whole bottle of Tums.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 11:43 PM
Because he is expensive and he sucks? :dunno: He can't step up? He doesn't respond to motivation? $11,499, 997 other reasons....

Let's hope she's right.
1. He doesn't suck, as has been proven time and time again.
2. Do you work for the White Sox in any capacity?
3. Pitching isn't cheap, that's well established.

Right now, I see Richard as that #5 starter, and he'd be much better than Javy. I want Javy as far away from the pitching staff as possible. Every time I watch him, I have to ingest a whole bottle of Tums.
What makes you think Richard would do any better than Vazquez?

Javy is one year removed from being a top 15 pitcher in baseball. Come on.

drewcifer
10-09-2008, 11:49 PM
1. He doesn't suck, as has been proven time and time again.

He's proven he DOES, time and time again. NY, ARZ, now here. He's overpriced for $12mm and his strikeouts mean **** with a 4.5 ERA.

2. Do you work for the White Sox in any capacity? No, do you? Now that that is settled...

3. Pitching isn't cheap, that's well established.
Compared to Javy, the alternatives are VERY VERY cheap. Richard certainly is, and trade would certainly be less than him too while likely bringing in help somewhere else (as trades often do).


What makes you think Richard would do any better than Vazquez? It's not what makes you think what would make Richard better - It's what makes you think Javy is worth $11.2mm more... The answer? Nothing. We have 3 good, nay - great starters. 2 of which aren't even a $1M combined. Then, we have Javy.

Javy is one year removed from being a top 15 pitcher in baseball. Come on.

Javy is 1 year removed from having sun shine on his ass on a crappy team. He's has more IP than almost anyone his age. And he's not even .500. His ERA is pedestrian. He has lots of Ks and that's about it.

Knock it off.

BadBobbyJenks
10-09-2008, 11:49 PM
People need to stop the trade Javy stuff. If you dont want this guy as our 4th or 5th guy you are blinded by irrational hate.

drewcifer
10-09-2008, 11:53 PM
People need to stop the trade Javy stuff. If you dont want this guy as our 4th or 5th guy you are blinded by irrational hate.

In that case, I'd trade him for 5 minutes to love a 4th or 5th taking his place.

chisoxfanatic
10-10-2008, 12:01 AM
Javier Vazquez is a run surrendering revolving door. Whenever we score, he likes to regurgitate them right back. I'd rather let Richard develop into a starter at the #5 spot than take time away from him in favor of a revolving door.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 12:16 AM
People need to stop the trade Javy stuff. If you dont want this guy as our 4th or 5th guy you are blinded by irrational hate.

More like people who want him to stay are blinded by irrational love for a perpetual loser.

If the Sox are serious about winning it all next year, Javy can't be on the roster. At least not as one of the top five starting pitchers.

BadBobbyJenks
10-10-2008, 12:18 AM
In that case, I'd trade him for 5 minutes to love a 4th or 5th taking his place.

Tell me this 4th or 5th starter you are trading for that is better than him?

BadBobbyJenks
10-10-2008, 12:24 AM
More like people who want him to stay are blinded by irrational love for a perpetual loser.

If the Sox are serious about winning it all next year, Javy can't be on the roster. At least not as one of the top five starting pitchers.

Oh

So I take it you think

Kyle Kendrick, Jaime Moyer and Joe Blanton are better.
Maddux and Kershaw (presently) are better.
Wakefield and ?Paul Byrd? are better.
Sonnastine and Edwin Jackson are better.

One of those 4 groups is winning it all. Wakefield and Sonnastine are debatable I guess.

Again trade Javy supporters, find me all these 4th and 5th starters that are better than javy.

thedudeabides
10-10-2008, 12:42 AM
Javier Vazquez is a run surrendering revolving door. Whenever we score, he likes to regurgitate them right back. I'd rather let Richard develop into a starter at the #5 spot than take time away from him in favor of a revolving door.

I like Richards's potential, but nobody knows if he can go 100+ innings, let alone 150-200. He proved this year, with one exception, he has a hard time making it through the lineup the third time. Sometimes the second time. He needs more seasoning to be counted on for an entire season.

Javy has his faults, but he will take the ball 30+ times and give you innings and 12-15 wins. That's very valuable. Would you rather have Kyle Lohse or Silva? They just signed comparable contracts. Because they take the hill and give you innings. It's hard to come by. We may have Richard in the rotation next year and if you do, you better have four other starters who will give you innings.

I'd be fine trading Javy if you can get someone back to give innings in the rotation, but I'm not sure that's likely. Javy isn't perfect by any means, but he serves an important purpose in a rotation. You get rid of him without an innings replacement, your looking for trouble.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 12:58 AM
Oh

So I take it you think

Kyle Kendrick, Jaime Moyer and Joe Blanton are better.
Maddux and Kershaw (presently) are better.
Wakefield and ?Paul Byrd? are better.
Sonnastine and Edwin Jackson are better.

One of those 4 groups is winning it all. Wakefield and Sonnastine are debatable I guess.

Again trade Javy supporters, find me all these 4th and 5th starters that are better than javy.

Yes, I would take any one of those players before Javy. Are you forgetting his era was nearly 5? Are you forgetting it's always that high on winning teams?

Yes, I'd take all of those guys over Javy. If for no other reason than salary relief.

Jimmy John
10-10-2008, 01:20 AM
add me to the list of people who want Javy nowhere near this team in 2009. go ahead and call it "irrational hate" if you want, but i can't stand the guy. eat his salary if you have to.

in my opinion he single-handedly destroyed all the momentum we had going into tampa.

whitesoxfan
10-10-2008, 01:59 AM
Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, Derek Lowe, Vazquez.

That rotation would own and would surely be one of the best in all of baseball.

tstrike2000
10-10-2008, 06:32 AM
Tell me this 4th or 5th starter you are trading for that is better than him?

That's anyone's guess. It's easy to understand the love/hate with Javy. The good is when he's on, he's tough, and very durable in always logging 200 innings with the full 32-34 starts a year. Having durability like that from a starter is priceless. The more telling stats though is since leaving Montreal and going to the Yankees in '04 he's 63-61 with a 4.52 ERA, which includes 3 years of being below .500 including this year. '07 could be seen as his abberation of the last 5 seasons since he was 15-8 with the 3.74 ERA.

So, the bad is he sucked very bad down the stretch, ERA is too high, and below .500 many seasons of his career. However, he's proven his durability. Essentially, he's got roughly Jon Garland career numbers with alot more strikeouts and a little less run support. And Garland's on the hook for 12 million from LAAAA. So I don't know that we want to trade Javy, even though he's basically become an expensive #4 starter on the depth chart. Then we're having to guess who's 4 and 5 next year with what would be Javy and Contreras gone.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-10-2008, 07:15 AM
Javy needs to go. The people who argue that he will be a great 5th starter are ignoring the economics. To me, no GM worth their salt can or will pay a 5th starter $11.5-million a year. The Yankees may be able the only team to be able to afford to do that, but can the White Sox afford to pay Javy 10% of their total salary to a 5th starter? I don't think so and I certainly hope they don't.

I think the only way he is on the team in 2009 is if they cannot find someone to take his salary. Even if they get little in return, I would get rid of him just to free up the salary room to use it on someone who can be productive in a positive way (eating innings alone is not a positive contribution) for the team.

Javy has proven himself to be a losing pitcher and that attitude and performance needs to be removed from the clubhouse. You send the wrong message when you tolerate mediocrity, plus overpay for that mediocrity.

soxtalker
10-10-2008, 07:35 AM
I don't feel an urgency for trading JV. However, I would welcome a trade like Garcia-Floyd, where KW gets young pitching that he believes in.

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 07:52 AM
He's proven he DOES, time and time again. NY, ARZ, now here. He's overpriced for $12mm and his strikeouts mean **** with a 4.5 ERA.
No, do you? Now that that is settled...

Compared to Javy, the alternatives are VERY VERY cheap. Richard certainly is, and trade would certainly be less than him too while likely bringing in help somewhere else (as trades often do).


It's not what makes you think what would make Richard better - It's what makes you think Javy is worth $11.2mm more... The answer? Nothing. We have 3 good, nay - great starters. 2 of which aren't even a $1M combined. Then, we have Javy.



Javy is 1 year removed from having sun shine on his ass on a crappy team. He's has more IP than almost anyone his age. And he's not even .500. His ERA is pedestrian. He has lots of Ks and that's about it.

Knock it off.
I will be shocked if Clayton Richard posts a 4.67 ERA in 208 innings next season. In fact, I don't see anyone on the market who will command Javy-like money who can do that. Not one.

Do you know the average 4/5 starter in baseball is usually a full run higher than Javy? Do you know how lucky we are?

Do you know that, usually, the most important thing is having a staff full of healthy guys? Javy is that healthy guy. Did it ever occur to you that his mechanics were out of whack at the end of the year due to short rest? Maybe he's not a girl as so many here believe.

RealFan
10-10-2008, 08:33 AM
I have to agree with the pro Javy sentiment above. This guy is a relative bargain in today's baseball world at the #4 or #5 slot. He eats innings and wins about half his games. He lost some tough low scoring games early this past season and just wore down as the year went on. I certainly don't love him and don't think he should be starting a playoff series anytime soon, but his health and durability have helped us maintain consistency in our rotation. There's not much else out there that I'd want over Javy at the back of our rotation.

gr8mexico
10-10-2008, 08:54 AM
MB,John Danks,Gavin Floyd, Brad Penny*, Carl Pavano
*Option is suppose to be declined
I just cant see how Vazquez stays here next year. I'm sure Ozzie and KW
are sick and tired of him.

thedudeabides
10-10-2008, 09:28 AM
Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, Derek Lowe, Vazquez.

That rotation would own and would surely be one of the best in all of baseball.

Boras Client. Forget about it

btrain929
10-10-2008, 09:28 AM
MB,John Danks,Gavin Floyd, Brad Penny*, Carl Pavano

:bundy

palehosepub
10-10-2008, 09:45 AM
I really think the Sox need to get a top of the rotation starter and put their dollars there - along with MB, Floyd, Danks and Javy. I would not have 3 lefties in the rotation with Richard, he is a two pitch pitcher who now is best suited for relief. Pitching is what wins in the playoffs, I would be OK using young inexpensive guys like Getz and Fields if we could get a front line pitcher like Burnett or maybe Lowe. (Someone will vastly overpay for CC - $150 mil over 8 years). I look for Kenny to make a bold move here an add a quality starter.

This move may result in a PK trade to the West Coast to free up dollars and put Swish at first.

voodoochile
10-10-2008, 09:57 AM
I really think the Sox need to get a top of the rotation starter and put their dollars there - along with MB, Floyd, Danks and Javy. I would not have 3 lefties in the rotation with Richard, he is a two pitch pitcher who now is best suited for relief. Pitching is what wins in the playoffs, I would be OK using young inexpensive guys like Getz and Fields if we could get a front line pitcher like Burnett or maybe Lowe. (Someone will vastly overpay for CC - $150 mil over 8 years). I look for Kenny to make a bold move here an add a quality starter.

This move may result in a PK trade to the West Coast to free up dollars and put Swish at first.

I'd love for this to happen - well not the trade PK part, but for the Sox to lock up a 1-3 for 3-4 years. Richard needs to develop and he would be a good backup plan to have if someone falters or gets hurt. Right now if Richard starts, what's the backup plan? 4-Man Rotation until JC comes back? That won't cut it. Still, the Sox need to find a veteran IF/top 2 hitter to replace OC. After that they might not need much more work offensively or at least could get by so they should concentrate on landing another pitcher.

hellview
10-10-2008, 10:10 AM
This move may result in a PK trade to the West Coast to free up dollars and put Swish at first.

Where is this PK to the West Coast stuff coming from?

Do you really think the Angels are gonna take on that contract for a declining 1B. They could put Morales or Wood at 1B and get decent production for 400k.

oeo
10-10-2008, 10:14 AM
Where is this PK to the West Coast stuff coming from?

Do you really think the Angels are gonna take on that contract for a declining 1B. They could put Morales or Wood at 1B and get decent production for 400k.

.270/.374/.535

That was Paulie's line in the second half. Declining? Nope. Plagued by injuries in the first half? Yep.

Some of you seriously act like Konerko is 38 or something, the guy is only 32.

MB,John Danks,Gavin Floyd, Brad Penny*, Carl Pavano
*Option is suppose to be declined
I just cant see how Vazquez stays here next year. I'm sure Ozzie and KW
are sick and tired of him.

That may be the crappiest idea I've read here. You can't be serious. Even if you're sick and tired of Javy, you want that crap at the back end of the rotation?

hellview
10-10-2008, 10:23 AM
.270/.374/.535

That was Paulie's line in the second half. Declining? Nope. Plagued by injuries in the first half? Yep.

Some of you seriously act like Konerko is 38 or something, the guy is only 32.


He's in the decline, plus you take him playing 81 games from the Cell and he's a below average 1b.

Paulie is Garrett Atkins, he's largely a product of his home park.

btrain929
10-10-2008, 10:25 AM
Some of you seriously act like Konerko is 38 or something, the guy is only 32.

You're as young as you look. In the field and running, he looks like he's 42.

I think people are just concerned because it's the 2nd year in a row his numbers have declined. This year his numbers drastically declined AND he was injured. As players get older, those type of things don't generally go away.

I hope he has an injury-free '09 with us and can give us 28/95/.275/.360, but I'm not counting on it.

oeo
10-10-2008, 10:35 AM
You're as young as you look. In the field and running, he looks like he's 42.

He's never been a very good fielder, and has always been slow as a sloth. He makes the plays he can get to, but that's not very much...never has been. There was a small stretch at the beginning of the year that he was really struggling defensively, but I think that was just bringing his AB's to the field because he was fine at the end of the year.

I think people are just concerned because it's the 2nd year in a row his numbers have declined. This year his numbers drastically declined AND he was injured. As players get older, those type of things don't generally go away.

I hope he has an injury-free '09 with us and can give us 28/95/.275/.360, but I'm not counting on it.He's only had small, plaguing-like injuries. It's not like he has a bad back.

Look, I said when he was struggling earlier this year that last year was a fluke, and at the current time, he was just playing hurt. He ended up turning his year around. I think Paulie's fine, this is just overreaction (as usual) at its best.

We saw an example of a quickly declining player in Ken Griffey Jr. this year. If you want to say the two are comparable, fine, but I think you're nuts.

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 10:37 AM
No way Broadway is in the plans as a starter.

I hope it's Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, FA

I want Richard in the pen and a spot starter. Logan and H Ramirez have to be gone. Enough of these two.


Exactly. Sign a veteran starter. Put Richard in the pen as a long man/second lefty. He's our depth should a starter go down. Poreda follows behind him. Start him in Charlotte. If Richard is needed in the rotation at some point then bring up Poreda for the pen. Also, Contreras should be back by July or August for more depth.

BP:

Jenks, Carrasco,Thornton,Richard,Linebrink, Dotel and 1 additional new pitcher.

Russell and Wassermann in Charlotte for depth.

Broadway, Logan and MacDougal move for whatever they can get.

The Sox just need to add a decent 5th starter and one more good reliever and the staff will be solid.

btrain929
10-10-2008, 10:43 AM
If you want to say the two are comparable, fine, but I think you're nuts.

I said that is why some people are concerned about PK, not myself.

oeo
10-10-2008, 10:49 AM
He's in the decline, plus you take him playing 81 games from the Cell and he's a below average 1b.

Paulie is Garrett Atkins, he's largely a product of his home park.

If you want to use one year to say that, go ahead, I guess. But there's been no evidence in the past couple years of that being true.

hellview
10-10-2008, 11:10 AM
If you want to use one year to say that, go ahead, I guess. But there's been no evidence in the past couple years of that being true.

Konerko Career Splits-Home .290/.367/.536 .904 OPS

Away-.265/.338/.448 .786 OPS

drewcifer
10-10-2008, 11:21 AM
I will be shocked if Clayton Richard posts a 4.67 ERA in 208 innings next season. In fact, I don't see anyone on the market who will command Javy-like money who can do that. Not one.

Do you know the average 4/5 starter in baseball is usually a full run higher than Javy? Do you know how lucky we are?

Do you know that, usually, the most important thing is having a staff full of healthy guys? Javy is that healthy guy. Did it ever occur to you that his mechanics were out of whack at the end of the year due to short rest? Maybe he's not a girl as so many here believe.

You are ignoring my point. Again, it's not that Richard needs to perform to Javy's standards. It's that you are overpaying for the IP you get from Javy.

In 05 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 75 pitchers who logged 180IP or more. Javy was ranked 55 of 75 in ERA (bottom 27%).

In 06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 70 with Javy falling in at 60 of the 70 (bottom 14%).

In 07 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), there were 62, Javy 25th (best year of his career).

And this year (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 69 with Javy at 58th (bottom 16%).

Do you see a trend, here? And this is across both leagues. IP are great, but we are massively overpaying for them; especially if he's a #4 or #5. And he's a proven choker in big games.

You said the average #4/#5 is a full run higher... Can you support that? And what's the average salary of these #4/#5s as compared to him?

munchman33
10-10-2008, 11:24 AM
You are ignoring my point. Again, it's not that Richard needs to perform to Javy's standards. It's that you are overpaying for the IP you get from Javy.

In 05 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 75 pitchers who logged 180IP or more. Javy was ranked 55 of 75 in ERA (bottom 27%).

In 06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 70 with Javy falling in at 60 of the 70 (bottom 14%).

In 07 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), there were 62, Javy 25th (best year of his career).

And this year (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 69 with Javy at 58th (bottom 16%).

Do you see a trend, here? And this is across both leagues. IP are great, but we are massively overpaying for them; especially if he's a #4 or #5. And he's a proven choker in big games.

You said the average #4/#5 is a full run higher... Can you support that? And what's the average salary of these #4/#5s as compared to him?

:kneeslap:

nccwsfan
10-10-2008, 11:33 AM
More like people who want him to stay are blinded by irrational love for a perpetual loser.

If the Sox are serious about winning it all next year, Javy can't be on the roster. At least not as one of the top five starting pitchers.

The days of expecting Vazquez to be an ace or #2 are gone, and he's going to have to live with the "can't win the big game" tag until he actually pitches well in a big game, but it's a little bit of a stretch to say that he is a perpetual loser. 17 of his 33 starts were quality starts, you can bank on him to eat 200+ innings every season, and his K/BB ratio is outstanding.

This rotation would take a hit if he's gone. It's easy to be emotional about this but fortunately the White Sox braintrust recognize his value.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 11:36 AM
The days of expecting Vazquez to be an ace or #2 are gone, and he's going to have to live with the "can't win the big game" tag until he actually pitches well in a big game, but it's a little bit of a stretch to say that he is a perpetual loser. 17 of his 33 starts were quality starts, you can bank on him to eat 200+ innings every season, and his K/BB ratio is outstanding.

This rotation would take a hit if he's gone. It's easy to be emotional about this but fortunately the White Sox braintrust recognize his value.

17 quality starts out of 33? That's not that good. I bet, given the chance, Clayton could give us at least 15.

drewcifer
10-10-2008, 11:56 AM
17 quality starts out of 33? That's not that good. I bet, given the chance, Clayton could give us at least 15.

Again, based against his "value" as an eatings eater (all pitchers at 180IP or more):

In 2005 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 52 of 75 (bottom 30%)
In 2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 62 of 70 (bottom 11%)
In 2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 28 of 62 (that career year again)
In 2008 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 52 of 69 (bottom 15% again)

Javy blows for the $ he's paid.

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 11:56 AM
You are ignoring my point. Again, it's not that Richard needs to perform to Javy's standards. It's that you are overpaying for the IP you get from Javy.

In 05 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 75 pitchers who logged 180IP or more. Javy was ranked 55 of 75 in ERA (bottom 27%).

In 06 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180), there were 70 with Javy falling in at 60 of the 70 (bottom 14%).

In 07 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), there were 62, Javy 25th (best year of his career).

And this year (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 69 with Javy at 58th (bottom 16%).

Do you see a trend, here? And this is across both leagues. IP are great, but we are massively overpaying for them; especially if he's a #4 or #5. And he's a proven choker in big games.

You said the average #4/#5 is a full run higher... Can you support that? And what's the average salary of these #4/#5s as compared to him?
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-good-is-your-4-starter/

I don't know the relative salary of those players. I doubt it matters, really. Especially when you consider what Danks/Floyd make, we can certainly afford to take a risk on Javy. Why on earth would we want to ditch him at his lowest possible value? Why? Anybody?

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 11:57 AM
Again, based against his "value" as an eatings eater (all pitchers at 180IP or more):

In 2005 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 52 of 75 (bottom 30%)
In 2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 62 of 70 (bottom 11%)
In 2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 28 of 62 (that career year again)
In 2008 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=QSPct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch2&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180&qual=false&count=41), 52 of 69 (bottom 15% again)

Javy blows for the $ he's paid.
Not really. Many guys make what he makes and can't log 200 innings year in and year out. We would be better off sticking with Javy. We've seen him at his best and at his worst -- and the upside is worth paying for.

tstrike2000
10-10-2008, 11:59 AM
17 quality starts out of 33? That's not that good. I bet, given the chance, Clayton could give us at least 15.

Even if you get someone cheaper, who did you have in mind to take Javy's place in the 4th starter spot? In today's market, cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better. KW may go and get a 1,2, or 3 starter this winter, but if Javy's gone, does that mean we just throw Richard or Broadway into the 5th spot and expect better than what Javy may give?

drewcifer
10-10-2008, 11:59 AM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-good-is-your-4-starter/

I don't know the relative salary of those players. I doubt it matters, really. Especially when you consider what Danks/Floyd make, we can certainly afford to take a risk on Javy. Why on earth would we want to ditch him at his lowest possible value? Why? Anybody?

It does matter. We need position players and we don't have it in the farm. And further, for what Javy makes, we could have 2 more Danks/Floyds getting time and developing.

You perceive value in his health and IPs... In the NL (where he is probably better suited), you might be able to dump some $ and pick up some pieces for him. That's why.

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 12:01 PM
Strangely, I must agree with Grebeck. The Sox would have a hard time finding better than Javy without paying a ton for it either in trade or FA.

They should keep for next year anyway and I think they will. Solid starting pitching doesn't grow on trees and you can never have too much of it.

drewcifer
10-10-2008, 12:03 PM
Strangely, I must agree with Grebeck. The Sox would have a hard time finding better than Javy without paying a ton for it either in trade or FA.

They should keep for next year anyway and I think they will. Solid starting pitching doesn't grow on trees and you can never have too much of it.

What we have is $20mm in payroll for one SP we won't see but are stuck with and another who sucks.

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 12:07 PM
What we have is $20mm in payroll for one SP we won't see but are stuck with and another who sucks.
Again: define sucks. Please. His ERA+ was 98 with 208 IP. I will take that every year from my number four or five. Who are we going to get that's better?

Also, Contreras' salary may be insured. We don't know.

champagne030
10-10-2008, 12:10 PM
What we have is $20mm in payroll for one SP we won't see but are stuck with and another who sucks.

And the answer is Richard and Broadway? Pass.....

hellview
10-10-2008, 03:55 PM
Again: define sucks. Please. His ERA+ was 98 with 208 IP. I will take that every year from my number four or five. Who are we going to get that's better?

Also, Contreras' salary may be insured. We don't know.

It's not, Sox are on the hook.

champagne030
10-10-2008, 04:03 PM
It's not, Sox are on the hook.

Source?

chisoxfanatic
10-10-2008, 04:25 PM
I don't feel an urgency for trading JV. However, I would welcome a trade like Garcia-Floyd, where KW gets young pitching that he believes in.
That, I wouldn't mind, considering that Cooper seems to have a successful knack of getting the most out of young pitching. There's no reason to believe he couldn't work his magic again.