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MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 01:19 PM
Our lineup has one strength. Its ability to hit for a lot of power. Most teams do this with 3-5, we do it with 3-6. Allowing one more position to be a power hitter is not going to hurt this team as long as we have the right 1, 2, and 7-9 hitters.

Why is that everyone wants to change the one part of the order that we excel at? Its a lot more difficult to acquire players that are an improvement over Thome, Konerko, and Dye than it is to acquire players that are an improvement over Swisher, Anderson, and Uribe. Alexei and Cabrera both do their jobs fine outside of the heart of the order.

We need to address our weaknesses, not our strengths.

johnnyg83
10-04-2008, 01:26 PM
I don't love Figgins but he makes us a lot faster and fills leadoff and the 3b hole. Same with Orlando Hudson. Neither is ideal, but both bring things we need.

I aslo wouldn;t mind going after D Lowe or even Paul Byrd for a back end of the rotation spot.

Believe It!
10-04-2008, 01:29 PM
I aslo wouldn;t mind going after D Lowe or even Paul Byrd for a back end of the rotation spot.

We have a front end vacancy, the back end is reserved for Javy

johnnyg83
10-04-2008, 01:30 PM
We have a front end vacancy, the back end is reserved for Javy

Javy is dead to me.

Believe It!
10-04-2008, 01:33 PM
Javy is dead to me.

Unfortunately, for us that isn't true.

Lukin13
10-04-2008, 01:34 PM
You make a VERY good point.

I honestly believe that many people here (including myself) would admit that while we would prefer to watch a more balanced team in '09, that it might not lead to more wins.

Konkerko and Thome are both going to be very hard to move in the offseason; let alone get anything in return for them.

I am inclined to try and deal Konerko so Swisher can move to 1B. Otherwise, there is no room for Nick on this team with Dye in RF and TCQ in LF. I think "selling low" on Swish would be a mistake at this point. Ozzie needs to pencil him into the 6 hole next year and leave him alone, if he does that I think nick will hit 30 homers and carry a .365 OBP.

LoveYourSuit
10-04-2008, 01:57 PM
You make a VERY good point.

I honestly believe that many people here (including myself) would admit that while we would prefer to watch a more balanced team in '09, that it might not lead to more wins.
.


I agree. The Sox need to build a team that can dominate and be succesful at home because that's where you play half of your games. The long ball is pretty much the only success at US Cellular Field. Now to inject a few .290 - .300 hitters, that will not hurt. The problem we have with our big boppers is the fact that they are awful batting average hitters. Other than Dye, the rest of Thome, Konerko, & Swisher struggle to hit their weight. If those guys can hit for average, that's where they can be succesful on the road as hitters because instead of launching long balls they can hit the gaps in ball parks that are least favorable to the long ball.

Hate them as much as you want, Magglio and C Lee where the perfect middle of the order guys for this type of team we need.

munchman33
10-04-2008, 02:03 PM
Not only are Paul and Thome hard to move...I agree we shouldn't move them. Balance includes having guys like that. And I think they'd hit a lot better with RISP if we had RISP more often. It's just that we get so few baserunners ready to score (or capable of scoring with a single), that those guys press in key situations.

I think Dye is our biggest trading piece in the offseason. I hope we can turn him into a quality pitcher and maybe Vasquez into a young position player.

turners56
10-04-2008, 02:04 PM
Our core is Ramirez, Quentin, and Dye right now. I don't know if you can include Thome and Konerko. Maybe Thome, but Paulie's coming off a bad season and his stats have been steadily decreasing for the second straight year now. Thing is though, we're stuck with both Thome and Konerko for '09 unless Kenny can come up with some kind of a miracle deal.

This team can be very succesful in 2009 if we get more balanced and acquire one more starter.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2008, 02:33 PM
Get Paulie to agree to a trade to the Angels and get Chone Figgins in return. This addresses the hole at 3B, at leadoff, and gets Swisher at 1B. Then, sign Rafael Furcal as a free agent. This keeps Alexei at 2B. Now your lineup is:

3B Figgins (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 20 doubles, 35+ steals)
SS Furcal (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 25 doubles, 35+ steals)
LF TCQ (RHB, .280/.390, 35+ HR, 30+ doubles, 5 steals)
DH Thome (LHB, .250/.380, 30+ HR, 20+ doubles)
RF Dye (RHB, .280/.345, 30+ HR, 30+ doubles)
1B Swisher (switch hitter, .245/.355, 30 HR, 25+ doubles, 5 steals)
2B Alexei (RHB, .290/.320, 20 HR, 25+ doubles, 20 steals)
C AJ (LHB, .280/.310, 15 HR, 25 doubles)
CF BA (RHB, .250/.290, 15 HR, 30 doubles, 10 steals)

That starting lineup alone will hit 155+ HR, 230+ doubles, but also steal 110+ bases. Also, with the good OBP and speed at the top, the middle of the order will get more fastballs and mistakes to hit. And with the ability to take the extra base at 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 9, the Sox can move beyond "station to station" baserunning.

LoveYourSuit
10-04-2008, 02:37 PM
Get Paulie to agree to a trade to the Angels and get Chone Figgins in return. This addresses the hole at 3B, at leadoff, and gets Swisher at 1B. Then, sign Rafael Furcal as a free agent. This keeps Alexei at 2B. Now your lineup is:

3B Figgins (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 20 doubles, 35+ steals)
SS Furcal (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 25 doubles, 35+ steals)
LF TCQ (RHB, .280/.390, 35+ HR, 30+ doubles, 5 steals)
DH Thome (LHB, .250/.380, 30+ HR, 20+ doubles)
RF Dye (RHB, .280/.345, 30+ HR, 30+ doubles)
1B Swisher (switch hitter, .245/.355, 30 HR, 25+ doubles, 5 steals)
2B Alexei (RHB, .290/.320, 20 HR, 25+ doubles, 20 steals)
C AJ (LHB, .280/.310, 15 HR, 25 doubles)
CF BA (RHB, .250/.290, 15 HR, 30 doubles, 10 steals)

That starting lineup alone will hit 155+ HR, 230+ doubles, but also steal 110+ bases. Also, with the good OBP and speed at the top, the middle of the order will get more fastballs and mistakes to hit. And with the ability to take the extra base at 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 9, the Sox can move beyond "station to station" baserunning.


I agree Konerko will give us the most as far as payroll flexibility, but I still think it will be so much easier to trade Swisher.

I would much rather have Paulie at 1B than Swisher anyway.

But $$$ is the bigger issue IMO.

DaveFeelsRight
10-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Get Paulie to agree to a trade to the Angels and get Chone Figgins in return. This addresses the hole at 3B, at leadoff, and gets Swisher at 1B. Then, sign Rafael Furcal as a free agent. This keeps Alexei at 2B. Now your lineup is:

3B Figgins (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 20 doubles, 35+ steals)
SS Furcal (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 25 doubles, 35+ steals)
LF TCQ (RHB, .280/.390, 35+ HR, 30+ doubles, 5 steals)
DH Thome (LHB, .250/.380, 30+ HR, 20+ doubles)
RF Dye (RHB, .280/.345, 30+ HR, 30+ doubles)
1B Swisher (switch hitter, .245/.355, 30 HR, 25+ doubles, 5 steals)
2B Alexei (RHB, .290/.320, 20 HR, 25+ doubles, 20 steals)
C AJ (LHB, .280/.310, 15 HR, 25 doubles)
CF BA (RHB, .250/.290, 15 HR, 30 doubles, 10 steals)

That starting lineup alone will hit 155+ HR, 230+ doubles, but also steal 110+ bases. Also, with the good OBP and speed at the top, the middle of the order will get more fastballs and mistakes to hit. And with the ability to take the extra base at 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 9, the Sox can move beyond "station to station" baserunning.dont get me wrong, i like this line up alot. but theres two big questions:

what happens if the angels keep tex at 1st?

if we get furcal, what about his health?

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 03:30 PM
Get Paulie to agree to a trade to the Angels and get Chone Figgins in return. This addresses the hole at 3B, at leadoff, and gets Swisher at 1B. Then, sign Rafael Furcal as a free agent. This keeps Alexei at 2B. Now your lineup is:

3B Figgins (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 20 doubles, 35+ steals)
SS Furcal (switch hitter, .290/.350, 5 HR, 25 doubles, 35+ steals)
LF TCQ (RHB, .280/.390, 35+ HR, 30+ doubles, 5 steals)
DH Thome (LHB, .250/.380, 30+ HR, 20+ doubles)
RF Dye (RHB, .280/.345, 30+ HR, 30+ doubles)
1B Swisher (switch hitter, .245/.355, 30 HR, 25+ doubles, 5 steals)
2B Alexei (RHB, .290/.320, 20 HR, 25+ doubles, 20 steals)
C AJ (LHB, .280/.310, 15 HR, 25 doubles)
CF BA (RHB, .250/.290, 15 HR, 30 doubles, 10 steals)

That starting lineup alone will hit 155+ HR, 230+ doubles, but also steal 110+ bases. Also, with the good OBP and speed at the top, the middle of the order will get more fastballs and mistakes to hit. And with the ability to take the extra base at 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 9, the Sox can move beyond "station to station" baserunning.

I like that lineup, but I'd rather have Konerko than Swisher. If it takes Konerko to pull off that trade I'd do it. I just don't think it does.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2008, 03:40 PM
dont get me wrong, i like this line up alot. but theres two big questions:

what happens if the angels keep tex at 1st?

if we get furcal, what about his health?

I think the Angels will get out-bid for Teixeira.

KW has had a good track record acquiring players at reduced prices (both in trade - Quentin - and a free agents - Dye) when they've come off injury-plagued seasons. Furcal is less of an injury risk than Orlando Hudson, who since completing his 2002 rookie season has missed more than 20 games in 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2008. By comparison, other than his 2000 rookie season, Furcal has missed more than 20 games only thrice: 2001, 2007 and 2008. IMHO Hudson is more of an injury risk, and he's not as good of a player, and is a 2B, whereas Furcal is a SS. And Furcal is only two months older than Hudson.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2008, 03:42 PM
I like that lineup, but I'd rather have Konerko than Swisher. If it takes Konerko to pull off that trade I'd do it. I just don't think it does.

The Angels would have no interest in Swisher. They would have more interest in Paulie. They key is to get Paulie to agree to the deal.

WhiteSox5187
10-04-2008, 04:00 PM
I really think that we can still win with a core Thome, Dye and Konerko. I think Paulie will have a much more productive year next year. Throw Quentin into this mix (who I don't think is a base clogger) you have a damn good heart of the lineup. But as has been said before, we need speed to surround those guys.

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 04:14 PM
The Angels would have no interest in Swisher. They would have more interest in Paulie. They key is to get Paulie to agree to the deal.

I don't think we need to trade a first basemen. I want Swisher as a fourth outfielder and a backup for Paulie.

turners56
10-04-2008, 04:29 PM
I don't think we need to trade a first basemen. I want Swisher as a fourth outfielder and a backup for Paulie.

Swisher is much more than a fourth outfielder.

doublem23
10-04-2008, 04:29 PM
No matter what fantasies you come up with there are 3 open spots on this team next year: CF, 2B/SS, 3B

Add speed to those three positions and bam... 95-win team.

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 04:41 PM
If we add speed and average at those, whether by outside help or improvement from Anderson, and have a good bullpen for the entire season we can do better than 95.

WhiteSoxOnly
10-04-2008, 04:55 PM
The speed issue is a no-brainer,and if it takes sacrificing one of
the big bats so be it...i still say Kenny needs to improve the
rotation for us to be much better next year.After Danks,Floyd,and
Burly there are two spots to fill,at least there should be.Get
Javy out of here,**** that **** about him being the #5 guy.
After all that has happened the past couple of weeks with
his stinkhole performances and Oz calling him out,he is
toast here.Move on already.Somebody will take him on by
looking at his innings,strikeout numbers,and affordable
contract.Contreras is done and we shouldn't be to sad about
that one either.

turners56
10-04-2008, 05:02 PM
No matter what fantasies you come up with there are 3 open spots on this team next year: CF, 2B/SS, 3B

Add speed to those three positions and bam... 95-win team.

Roberts, Figgins, Hudson, Ellis. Pick two out of the four.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2008, 05:38 PM
I don't think we need to trade a first basemen. I want Swisher as a fourth outfielder and a backup for Paulie.

How would you get Figgins from the Angels, then?

And if not Figgins, who is third baseman? Fields? I'll pass.

khan
10-04-2008, 05:48 PM
I think the Angels will get out-bid for Teixeira.
Agreed. What the rest of the posters here forget is that there are these two teams in this village called, "New York." And both of these teams have shiny new stadia. Additionally, there's this team called "The Yankees" [or something like that] who will be losing an aging steroid cheater 1B/DH off their payroll, plus an oft-injured SP as well.

I think just MAYBE that one of these teams from the Village of New York will have a few pennies scraped together to pay for a new 1B.



KW has had a good track record acquiring players at reduced prices (both in trade - Quentin - and a free agents - Dye) when they've come off injury-plagued seasons. Furcal is less of an injury risk than Orlando Hudson, who since completing his 2002 rookie season has missed more than 20 games in 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2008. By comparison, other than his 2000 rookie season, Furcal has missed more than 20 games only thrice: 2001, 2007 and 2008. IMHO Hudson is more of an injury risk, and he's not as good of a player, and is a 2B, whereas Furcal is a SS. And Furcal is only two months older than Hudson.

I agree with all of this. But:

KW is documented to have a man-crush on Hudson. And as in the Griffey debacle, KW is documented to pursue his man-crushes for years. Additionally, Hudson, as a 2B, will cost less than Furcal as a SS. All things being equal, a 2nd baseman is less-costly than a SS on the open market. But as you said, Furcal is probably considered the better player, which makes him more expensive.

In Chairman Jerry's world, these things taken together suggest to me that Hudson is more likely to come to Chicago than Furcal.

Hitmen77
10-04-2008, 05:51 PM
No matter what fantasies you come up with there are 3 open spots on this team next year: CF, 2B/SS, 3B

Add speed to those three positions and bam... 95-win team.

Exactly. I even wonder if KW is seriously going to look for a new CF given the fact that we don't have much to trade for. Like it or not, we're stuck with PK-Thome-Dye for next year. All we can do is hope PK and Thome don't continue their decline and Dye doesn't start a big drop off in production. The way I see it, here are the locks for next year:

C- AJ
1B- Konerko (can veto trade, still owed $24 million in his contract, has had 2 consecutive mediocre seasons.....we're stuck with him)
2B- ????
SS- Alexei (OC, he gone!)
3B- ???? (I hope the Sox don't think Fields is the answer)
LF- TCQ
CF- Swisher (Sox would have to "sell low" to dump him, don't have resources to replace him)
RF- Dye (not going anywhere)
DH- Thome (not going anywhere)

SP- MB
SP- Danks
SP- Floyd
SP- Vazquez (not going anywhere unless the Sox sign a veteran FA SP)
SP- ???? (Richard?)

Bullpen- Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, Thornton will be back. Other spots=??

People on this board love to talk about Figgins. But, how are we going to get him? LAA isn't just going to give him away.

By the way, how much payroll flexibility do people think the Sox will have? At least they'll be freeing up OC, Crede, and Uribe's salaries. Anyone on the team due for a huge arbitration-eligible raise?

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 06:33 PM
How would you get Figgins from the Angels, then?

And if not Figgins, who is third baseman? Fields? I'll pass.

Prospects? I'll leave it up to Kenny.

Jerome
10-04-2008, 07:07 PM
maybe he can swing Dye for another Danks/Floyd type pitching prospect:smile:

hopefully Swisher pulls his head out of his ass next year to soften that loss and contribute in RF (I don't really want to see him in CF)

Thome and Konerko will be back, might as well embrace them - we need the HRs to come from somewhere - I love watching the both of them play so long as they're not in month-long slumps

I don't like the fact we will have to fill up 2 of 3 - 2B/3B/SS (Unless Kenny clones Alexei) but I think OC will be gone and the 2 draft picks he brings will be used to try and shore up the minor leagues - the lack of depth in OF has really hurt this year.

also, does anyone think that Crede could come back healthy and sign a contract that both parties could agree upon? Hasn't his FA value gone down with the back issue? Or is he just gone for good?

Daver
10-04-2008, 07:15 PM
also, does anyone think that Crede could come back healthy and sign a contract that both parties could agree upon? Hasn't his FA value gone down with the back issue? Or is he just gone for good?

The White Sox would have to offer him arbitration.

NoNeckEra
10-04-2008, 07:21 PM
I really think that we can still win with a core Thome, Dye and Konerko. I think Paulie will have a much more productive year next year.
Boy am I glad you're not the GM.

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 08:28 PM
I'm sure the feelings mutual. There is absolutely no reason a team with those 3 players can't win the World Series.

slavko
10-04-2008, 08:31 PM
We're the heaviest and slowest team in MLB. Plus we're stuck with these heavy, slow guys unless Kenny can get very creative. He may not want to get creative, since he brought the bohemoths here in the first place. It's not the kind of White Sox baseball I grew up watching, that's for sure. (I know, different ballpark.)

The roster is ready for a 20-man over-the-top-rope Battle Royal more than it is for great baseball. Gee, I hope some of these guys get moved, and if they do, it might be for faster players not even mentioned in this thread. Surprises are a KW characteristic.

munchman33
10-04-2008, 08:35 PM
No matter what fantasies you come up with there are 3 open spots on this team next year: CF, 2B/SS, 3B

Add speed to those three positions and bam... 95-win team.

There's also a hole in the rotation and some holes in the pen. But yes. If we fill all those holes in the offense with complete players, we'll be in good shape.

Can we though? We've got prospects to trade for maybe one hole. And our payroll isn't exactly low. The only way we're realistically filling all those roles is if we trade off MLB talent and hope to turn it into multiple pieces or a cheaper piece so we can sign someone. Not impossible. But it's not easy either.