PDA

View Full Version : KW and Ozzie


Dub25
10-03-2008, 08:17 PM
1st off, the season is not over. Hopefully the Sox can become the 2nd team ever to comeback from a 0-2 deficit in a division series. With that being said, if this is not a wakeup call to KW to rebalence this offense then I don't know what is. Even though KW and Oz have won a world series together, Kenny has never gotten the offensive players that Ozzie desires. Kenny stroked his ego this year by getting Griffey when there were more pressing issues to fill on this team. They have been a slow, lumbering, Home Run hitting team for too long and I'm tired of seeing it. I appreciate Kenny being an aggressive GM but he needs to be more aggressive in other areas such as speed and contact hitters. Not the long ball boys. I know some of you guys and gals think Ozzie sucks as a manager but it is hard for him to execute what he believes is winning baseball without fast players. What do you guys think?

Go Sox. This season is not over.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 08:18 PM
1st off, the season is not over. Hopefully the Sox can become the 2nd team ever to comeback from a 0-2 deficit in a division series. With that being said, if this is not a wakeup call to KW to rebalence this offense then I don't know what is. Even though KW and Oz have won a world series together, Kenny has never gotten the offensive players that Ozzie desires. Kenny stroked his ego this year by getting Griffey when there were more pressing issues to fill on this team. They have been a slow, lumbering, Home Run hitting team for too long and I'm tired of seeing it. I appreciate Kenny being an aggressive GM but he needs to be more aggressive in other areas such as speed and contact hitters. Not the long ball boys. I know some of you guys and gals think Ozzie sucks as a manager but it is hard for him to execute what he believes is winning baseball without fast players. What do you guys think?

Go Sox. This season is not over.

Sorry, Boers and Bernsy were wrong, 7 teams have comeback... unless they meant NL teams.

JB98
10-03-2008, 08:23 PM
I think Kenny realizes the offense needs a makeover. It needs a new hitting coach too.

kevingrt
10-03-2008, 08:27 PM
I think Kenny realizes the offense needs a makeover. It needs a new hitting coach too.

Very correct.

This season and playoff season is not over yet, but KW definitely has things to work on this offseason. But he has some good building blocks and a good foundation to work off of for a championship team.

JB98
10-03-2008, 08:29 PM
Very correct.

This season and playoff season is not over yet, but KW definitely has things to work on this offseason. But he has some good building blocks and a good foundation to work off of for a championship team.

We are in MUCH better shape than we were at the end of the 2007 season. That's the positive in all this. Even if we don't come back and beat Tampa Bay, the 2008 season represented progress.

Now, KW needs to go out and fix the remaining holes.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 08:30 PM
I think Kenny realizes the offense needs a makeover. It needs a new hitting coach too.

But Rongey says it is not Walker's fault.

Seriously, he needs to go to. Yes, he can't fix something within in a game but he can determine the future by getting some of these knuckleheads to stop swinging for the fence or get them to take an outside pitch the opposite way.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2008, 08:31 PM
Dub:

it's a reported fact quoting Ozzie directly the past two off seasons that he's tired of waiting for the home runs and tired of all the strikeouts.

Kenny has been watching this abomination personally. I find it hard to think that he doesn't realize the problem.Now the question really is, can he fix it? Remember it takes two to get Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson has to want to sign with the Sox.

Lip

Dub25
10-03-2008, 08:33 PM
We are in MUCH better shape than we were at the end of the 2007 season. That's the positive in all this. Even if we don't come back and beat Tampa Bay, the 2008 season represented progress.

Now, KW needs to go out and fix the remaining holes.

Yes, I agree. Alexei and Quentin is a great start. Danks and Floyd on the pitching side along with Buehrle is solid. Fill the holes Kenny.

Ok, I'm sure I'll get killed for this but if Thome is coming back then Paulie has to go to free up some of this base clogging speed. Trade him for something that could help then Swish goes to first. Yes, Swish, I give him one more year. I think part of his prob was the rock star like treatment this city gave him.

Evman5
10-03-2008, 08:34 PM
We are in MUCH better shape than we were at the end of the 2007 season. That's the positive in all this. Even if we don't come back and beat Tampa Bay, the 2008 season represented progress.

Now, KW needs to go out and fix the remaining holes.

True, although I wanted this bad for Griff and Thome, this year was progress. 4 guys took huge steps forward this year. Quentin, Alexei, Floyd and Danks all had unbelievable years. They definitely gave me hope that we have a young core to build around.

We certainly need a makeover on offense, which everybody can see. We don't need to get rid of all our power, but we need some balance. I am confident Kenny can get it done.

I am going to root like hell for them on Sunday and maybe this team will respond with their backs against the wall like they have all year.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Dub:

it's a reported fact quoting Ozzie directly the past two off seasons that he's tired of waiting for the home runs and tired of all the strikeouts.

Kenny has been watching this abomination personally. I find it hard to think that he doesn't realize the problem.Now the question really is, can he fix it? Remember it takes two to get Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson has to want to sign with the Sox.

Lip

Then why is it taking KW so long? He spent 3 to get Swish. Unless I'm not understanding you.

JB98
10-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Yes, I agree. Alexei and Quentin is a great start. Danks and Floyd on the pitching side along with Buehrle is solid. Fill the holes Kenny.

Ok, I'm sure I'll get killed for this but if Thome is coming back then Paulie has to go to free up some of this base clogging speed. Trade him for something that could help then Swish goes to first. Yes, Swish, I give him one more year. I think part of his prob was the rock star like treatment this city gave him.

I think one of the slow right-handed sluggers will be traded this offseason, either Konerko or Dye. With Quentin, Ramirez and whichever guy doesn't get traded, you still have plenty of right-handed thump.

Optipessimism
10-03-2008, 08:50 PM
The most annoying part of this entire team, aside from Javy, is watching Thome in key situations with runners on. I'd love it if Kenny could sign Raul Ibanez to DH with Thome waiving his NTC to go elsewhere, but that's not happening.

I can expect to read **** on this board talking bad about Uribe and Anderson at the plate, as well as the pitching in the 8th inning. Uribe and Anderson are perfectly fine going 0-for-the century at the bottom of the order because of their defense, and the 8th inning doesn't happen if we're up by 1 or more, because then Thornton comes out to start the inning with nobody on and probably holds the lead. The problem with this team is the middle of the lineup, and Thome's extreme all-or-nothing style of play is the absolute worst part of it. He's a guy that over the course of a season will walk a lot, hit home runs, and drive in a lot of runs, but in any situation where he's expected to do something other than swing for the fences he's terrible.

Flame away.

jcw218
10-03-2008, 08:59 PM
Dub:

it's a reported fact quoting Ozzie directly the past two off seasons that he's tired of waiting for the home runs and tired of all the strikeouts.

Kenny has been watching this abomination personally. I find it hard to think that he doesn't realize the problem.Now the question really is, can he fix it? Remember it takes two to get Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson has to want to sign with the Sox.

Lip

Then why is it taking KW so long? He spent 3 to get Swish. Unless I'm not understanding you.

I think what Lip is trying to say is that even though Kenny wants to get Figgins, he is not a free agent (Angels have his rights due to service time) and would have to be acquired via trade, thus needing two sides to agree to a deal, not number of players.

JB98
10-03-2008, 09:00 PM
The most annoying part of this entire team, aside from Javy, is watching Thome in key situations with runners on. I'd love it if Kenny could sign Raul Ibanez to DH with Thome waiving his NTC to go elsewhere, but that's not happening.

I can expect to read **** on this board talking bad about Uribe and Anderson at the plate, as well as the pitching in the 8th inning. Uribe and Anderson are perfectly fine going 0-for-the century at the bottom of the order because of their defense, and the 8th inning doesn't happen if we're up by 1 or more, because then Thornton comes out to start the inning with nobody on and probably holds the lead. The problem with this team is the middle of the lineup, and Thome's extreme all-or-nothing style of play is the absolute worst part of it. He's a guy that over the course of a season will walk a lot, hit home runs, and drive in a lot of runs, but in any situation where he's expected to do something other than swing for the fences he's terrible.

Flame away.

Thome got a hit off Kazmir with the bases loaded tonight. :dunno:

Optipessimism
10-03-2008, 09:00 PM
Dub:

it's a reported fact quoting Ozzie directly the past two off seasons that he's tired of waiting for the home runs and tired of all the strikeouts.

Kenny has been watching this abomination personally. I find it hard to think that he doesn't realize the problem.Now the question really is, can he fix it? Remember it takes two to get Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson has to want to sign with the Sox.

Lip
Those aren't the only options. There are tons of different scenarios for improving this team because even after arbitration for Jenks, we'll have our 7 best players (Quentin, Alexei, Danks, Mark, Bobby, Dye, Floyd) making something like $30 million combined. There's room to work so long as the Sox actually feel like doing it.

For the record I don't like Hudson at $12+ million per year over 4 years or whatever he'll be asking for. Figgins is nice if he doesn't cost the farm. Otherwise take a flyer on Rocco Baldelli as a lead-off guy, pick up Grudz to play second and hit second, look to deal for Roberts, take a look into Willy Taveras if the Sox still like him, ask the Rays about Iwamura, etc. There are other alternatives out there.

hi im skot
10-03-2008, 09:02 PM
We are in MUCH better shape than we were at the end of the 2007 season. That's the positive in all this. Even if we don't come back and beat Tampa Bay, the 2008 season represented progress.

Now, KW needs to go out and fix the remaining holes.

Exactly. This team has driven me absolutely crazy, but when you look back at 2007, and also at all of the question marks coming into this season, we as fans should be looking forward to what 2009 can bring.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 09:03 PM
I think what Lip is trying to say is that even though Kenny wants to get Figgins, he is not a free agent (Angels have his rights due to service time) and would have to be acquired via trade, thus needing two sides to agree to a deal, not number of players.

Ok, you could be right, but if so then forget Figgins.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 09:04 PM
The most annoying part of this entire team, aside from Javy, is watching Thome in key situations with runners on. I'd love it if Kenny could sign Raul Ibanez to DH with Thome waiving his NTC to go elsewhere, but that's not happening.

I can expect to read **** on this board talking bad about Uribe and Anderson at the plate, as well as the pitching in the 8th inning. Uribe and Anderson are perfectly fine going 0-for-the century at the bottom of the order because of their defense, and the 8th inning doesn't happen if we're up by 1 or more, because then Thornton comes out to start the inning with nobody on and probably holds the lead. The problem with this team is the middle of the lineup, and Thome's extreme all-or-nothing style of play is the absolute worst part of it. He's a guy that over the course of a season will walk a lot, hit home runs, and drive in a lot of runs, but in any situation where he's expected to do something other than swing for the fences he's terrible.

Flame away.

I don't think in the American League it is ok for Uribe and Anderson to do what they did tonight or at any point in any season.

Optipessimism
10-03-2008, 09:04 PM
Thome got a hit off Kazmir with the bases loaded tonight. :dunno:
He hit directly into the shift and something good happened because the Rays didn't put the shift on then. That run was due to nothing other than poor Rays infield positioning. As soon as they did put the shift on again, instead of trying to hit the ball to the left side, or god forbid put a bunt down, he pulls the ball right back into the shift. Thome doesn't adjust to anything, and the worst part is he doesn't even try.

Optipessimism
10-03-2008, 09:08 PM
I don't think in the American League it is ok for Uribe and Anderson to do what they did tonight or at any point in any season.
Unless you want to put in Fields and Griffey, DWise, or Owens, you deal with it and take the defense. Without Uribe's play at 3B we wouldn't be here, and without Anderson's catch against the Twins we might not be here either. 8-9 hitters are expected to suck. Look around baseball.

JB98
10-03-2008, 09:11 PM
He hit directly into the shift and something good happened because the Rays didn't put the shift on then. That run was due to nothing other than poor Rays infield positioning. As soon as they did put the shift on again, instead of trying to hit the ball to the left side, or god forbid put a bunt down, he pulls the ball right back into the shift. Thome doesn't adjust to anything, and the worst part is he doesn't even try.

I think Thome has hit to the left side more this year than in any other season he's been with the Sox.

He's our DH for one more year, and then he'll retire. I don't know why he gets so much hate around here. I assume people don't like him because Rowand was traded for him.

I don't like the idea of Thome bunting. Yeah, he reaches first then, and now he's clogging the bases. Whoop dee doo.

bighurt93
10-03-2008, 09:15 PM
It is my understanding that kenny has been trying to build a team to suit ozzie's playing style, but when you look at it how many of those players are available. Players who have speed, handle a bat well, and post solid power and average numbers either aren't cheap or don't hit the open market at a reasonable price too often.

In many ways Kenny is doing the best with what he has. In a recent article I remember him saying that this isn't his ideal team but the FO made a conscious decision. Essentially saying that if we have power hitters than we are going to be the best power hitting team out there, and don't worry about speed and average. If you look at the team on paper we certainly seem to have a team loaded with players who SHOULD draw a large number of walks and SHOULD hit for power (Konerko, Swisher, Dye, Thome, a healthy Crede) Unfortunately the lack of clutch hitting and high number of strikeouts has reared its ugly head at an inopportune time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Kenny is aware of the flaws of this squad and has been for sometime, but he has yet to run into a situation where he can build the team in his image and I am at least glad that he has given this team an ideanity (live and die by the homer) than collecting an odd mish mash of players where the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

soxinem1
10-03-2008, 09:16 PM
First and foremost, KW needs to find a lead-off man. SEA needs players and can take on salary. Ichiro may be definitely on the market this winter.

While I agree that we are slow, casting off Konerko to make room for a .219-hitting K machine is not the answer either. I'd cast off Swish instead and cut our losses.

Also bear in mind we'll probably need a starter and reliever as well.

We may have to build for 2010, as Thome, Dye will be up after next season, and AJ a year later, and probably aren't going anywhere until then.

While most of us like all these players, the truth is that it will be tough to weed even two of them out until then.

BadBobbyJenks
10-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Rafy Furcal is a free agent too right?

My dream scenario would be Figgins or Furcal and Hudson.

Dub25
10-03-2008, 09:22 PM
It is my understanding that kenny has been trying to build a team to suit ozzie's playing style, but when you look at it how many of those players are available. Players who have speed, handle a bat well, and post solid power and average numbers either aren't cheap or don't hit the open market at a reasonable price too often.

In many ways Kenny is doing the best with what he has. In a recent article I remember him saying that this isn't his ideal team but the FO made a conscious decision. Essentially saying that if we have power hitters than we are going to be the best power hitting team out there, and don't worry about speed and average. If you look at the team on paper we certainly seem to have a team loaded with players who SHOULD draw a large number of walks and SHOULD hit for power (Konerko, Swisher, Dye, Thome, a healthy Crede) Unfortunately the lack of clutch hitting and high number of strikeouts has reared its ugly head at an inopportune time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Kenny is aware of the flaws of this squad and has been for sometime, but he has yet to run into a situation where he can build the team in his image and I am at least glad that he has given this team an ideanity (live and die by the homer) than collecting an odd mish mash of players where the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts.

I agree but why add another slow slugger in Griff?

bighurt93
10-03-2008, 09:43 PM
I don't know the stats off hand but my thought is that KW realized that Swish was not going to turn it around this year and we weren't going to win the division with BA in centerfield. Considering what we gave up and the fact that almost the entire league was in contention at the time Griff was the best option to add depth in the outfield.

BadBobbyJenks
10-03-2008, 09:48 PM
I think what Lip is trying to say is that even though Kenny wants to get Figgins, he is not a free agent (Angels have his rights due to service time) and would have to be acquired via trade, thus needing two sides to agree to a deal, not number of players.

Is there a chance we make another Carlos Lee Pods type trade though?

kitekrazy
10-03-2008, 09:52 PM
Kenny didn't ignore these things in the offseason. It's not that easy to make changes unless you have a fire sale.

Kenny tried to get Hunter, Fukadome.

Trades are not always that easy.

The changes I would like to see is better development in the minors.

btrain929
10-03-2008, 10:09 PM
Unless you want to put in Fields and Griffey, DWise, or Owens, you deal with it and take the defense. Without Uribe's play at 3B we wouldn't be here, and without Anderson's catch against the Twins we might not be here either. 8-9 hitters are expected to suck. Look around baseball.

That's ridiculous. Good teams have capable players offensively in 8-9. Tonight we saw Jason Bartlett batting .285 in the 9 hole. Boston has either Crisp/Ellsbury batting at the bottom who are around .280. The Angels have Aybar batting .275. The Dodgers have DeWitt/Black around .265. Over a full season, Anderson/Uribe would not even be close to any of those numbers. They are bench players, and should not be counted on too heavily over the course of a year.

The facts are: we have holes at 3B, 2B (with Alexei at SS), SP, and CF. Swish isn't a CF, so he will either play 1B with Konerko traded, or RF if Dye is traded (which is a strong possibility since he's the only guy other teams would be interested in, and isn't considered "untouchable" in our eyes). We don't have aging veterans on our team that will clog up those positions because there is literally nobody here to play those positions (no, Fields & Getz aren't starting in '09). I think thru trade or FA, we are going to add speed, good avg/OBP at those positions, exactly what we need to balance out our power and slowness.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2008, 10:37 PM
Griffey, Crede & OC are gone. Deal PK for Figgins & Shields. Invest savings in Rafael Furcal and Derek Lowe.

Lineup: Figgins, Furcal, Quentin, Thome, Dye, Swish, Alexei, AJ, BA

Rotation: Buehrle, Lowe, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez

Bullpen: Jenks, Shields, Linebrink, Thornton, Dotel, Richard, MacDougal

Consider this switch-hitting duo OBP-ing .350+ and stealing 70+ bags ahead of four 30-HR hitters, then two .290 hitters, then 30+ doubles from #9. We'd also have MLB's best bullpen, a good/great rotation, and solid defense everywhere.

btrain929
10-03-2008, 10:39 PM
Griffey, Crede & OC are gone. Deal PK for Figgins & Shields. Invest savings in Rafael Furcal and Derek Lowe.

Lineup: Figgins, Furcal, Quentin, Thome, Dye, Swish, Alexei, AJ, BA

Rotation: Buehrle, Lowe, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez

Bullpen: Jenks, Shields, Linebrink, Thornton, Dotel, Richard, MacDougal

Consider this switch-hitting duo OBP-ing .350+ and stealing 70+ bags ahead of four 30-HR hitters, then two .290 hitters, then 30+ doubles from #9. We'd also have MLB's best bullpen, a good/great rotation, and solid defense everywhere.

Question: Would the Angels give us Figgins and Shields for PK?
Answer: Probably not.

However, I really think we should be aggressive to pursue Derek Lowe. A lot of teams will be interested in him, and he doesn't seem like a typical KW move, but I can hope.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2008, 10:44 PM
Question: Would the Angels give us Figgins and Shields for PK?
Answer: Probably not.

If they don't re-sign Teixeira, they ought to be interested in PK. We'll likely have to sweeten the pot with cash and/or prospects.

Tragg
10-03-2008, 10:44 PM
I don't think in the American League it is ok for Uribe and Anderson to do what they did tonight or at any point in any season.
Certainly that level of production from a corner infield is unacceptable. (by that level of production I mean the typical Uribe production). From what I've seen, his D at 3rd is overrated as well.

As for CF, if there are no other offensive holes, we could live with Anderson's O.

And maybe a new hitting coach will help some of the guys. I still think that Ramirez could benefit greatly from real top flight coach (a medioocre coach could hurt him though); maybe someone can get Anderson to make more contact and take more pitches as well.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2008, 10:47 PM
Btrain:

Lowe's agent is Scott Boras.

Nuff' said?

Lip

btrain929
10-03-2008, 10:50 PM
Btrain:

Lowe's agent is Scott Boras.

Nuff' said?

Lip

Well that I did not know. But this time around in this situation, it might not play that big of a factor because there already is going to be plenty of interest in Lowe. It's not like Jeff Weaver or Kyle Lohse and Boras is saying "we're holding out for a 4 year deal at 12 mil per" or something. But I agree, that puts a damper on my hopes.

guillensdisciple
10-04-2008, 01:09 AM
There are going to be a LOT of comebacks this year.

Ranger
10-04-2008, 03:48 AM
But Rongey says it is not Walker's fault.

Seriously, he needs to go to. Yes, he can't fix something within in a game but he can determine the future by getting some of these knuckleheads to stop swinging for the fence or get them to take an outside pitch the opposite way.

I do say that. If you think this lineup's offensive issues would be solved by hiring a new hitting coach, you're mistaken. Walker's detractors always say the same thing about the "Greg Walker Swing-for-the-fences mentality". I'm still not quite understanding how it's so difficult to see that most of this team's personnel is inclined to hit home runs. Walker does not tell his players to try to hit homers every time up. And he doesn't insist they pull the ball every time up. I know that's what many want to believe, but it just isn't true.

By the time they get to this level, these hitters are who they are and they will always be who they are. A good major league hitting coach works with the strengths and weaknesses of each individual hitter. He can't turn them into completely different players.

If you want to make a more legitimate complaint, you can say that the minor league instruction should better prep these guys for the majors in terms of situational hitting and fundamentals. That would be fair, because it's difficult to change a player once he gets to the big leagues.

nasox
10-04-2008, 04:35 AM
Thome got a hit off Kazmir with the bases loaded tonight. :dunno:

He got that hit only because the shift wasn't on. The very next AB he had, the shift was on.

Lillian
10-04-2008, 08:26 AM
The future middle infield for the Sox is almost certain to have Alexei Ramirez at SS, and Beckham at 2B. Beckham could be ready by 2010, which would preclude signing either Hudson, or Furcal to long term deals.

Figgins might work because he would only have one year before becoming a FA, and he could play second, and lead off. It may not take as much as some of you think to get Figgins, again because next year will be his final year. Moreover, apparently he is not popular with some of the other players there. I wouldn't mind trading Konerko for him, but that only makes sense for the Angels, if they don't sign Teixeira, as many of you have noted.
Wouldn't you think that the Angels would be willing to include someone else in that deal? Then you could move Swisher to 1B, and you could go after a young speedster to play CF. Any ideas?
The other intriguing guy is Brian Roberts, but we've all been down that road so many times, and the O's just don't seem to be willing to consider a reasonable offer.

Either Fields will be at 3B, or he needs to be traded. Uribe might come back as the utility infielder. I'd love to see him lose a few pounds and come back at a reduced salary, with incentives, though that might be tough to do with only the promise of part time play. Depending on how much offense they could acquire in a speedy Center Fielder, they might even consider letting Uribe play 3B, and turn the utility role over to Getz. Maybe Fields could be used to get that speedy guy to play CF.

The team speed wouldn't be bad with these guys:

LF TCQ
CF New Speedster
RF Dye (OK that's one base clogger)
3B Uribe
SS TCM
2B Figgins
1B Swisher
C A.J. (He may not be fast, but he is a good base runner)
DH Thome (That's two base cloggers)

This team can't afford to trade any pitching. They need another starter, preferably an Ace. I can't imagine how they could acquire one, unless it's a young guy like Danks and Floyd, or a Coop reclamation project.

btrain929
10-04-2008, 08:31 AM
The future middle infield for the Sox is almost certain to have Alexei Ramirez at SS, and Beckham at 2B. Beckham could be ready by 2010, which would preclude signing either Hudson, or Furcal to long term deals.

Figgins might work because he would only have one year before becoming a FA, and he could play second, and lead off. It may not take as much as some of you think to get Figgins, again because next year will be his final year. Moreover, apparently he is not popular with some of the other players there. I wouldn't mind trading Konerko for him, but that only makes sense for the Angels, if they don't sign Teixeira, as many of you have noted.
Wouldn't you think that the Angels would be willing to include someone else in that deal? Then you could move Swisher to 1B, and you could go after a young speedster to play CF. Any ideas?
The other intriguing guy is Brian Roberts, but we've all been down that road so many times, and the O's just don't seem to be willing to consider a reasonable offer.

Either Fields will be at 3B, or he needs to be traded. Uribe might come back as the utility infielder. I'd love to see him lose a few pounds and come back at a reduced salary, with incentives, though that might be tough to do with only the promise of part time play. Depending on how much offense they could acquire in a speedy Center Fielder, they might even consider letting Uribe play 3B, and turn the utility role over to Getz. Maybe Fields could be used to get that speedy guy to play CF.

The team speed wouldn't be bad with these guys:

LF TCQ
CF New Speedster
RF Dye (OK that's one base clogger)
3B Uribe
SS TCM
2B Figgins
1B Swisher
C A.J. (He may not be fast, but he is a good base runner)
DH Thome (That's two base cloggers)

This team can't afford to trade any pitching. They need another starter, preferably an Ace. I can't imagine how they could acquire one, unless it's a young guy like Danks and Floyd, or a Coop reclamation project.

Uribe will not be our 3B next year. Let him be our utility guy off the bench. If he doesn't want to resign with us, I'm pretty sure he's a B FA and would net us a draft pick.

As far as young speedster, have LA throw in my boy Reggie Willits with Figgins. They don't play him because they have an old crowded OF. He had a great year in '07, then barely played in '08. He's definitely a grinder. :D:

jcw218
10-04-2008, 01:09 PM
Is there a chance we make another Carlos Lee Pods type trade though?

Yes there is a chance of a Lee for Pods type deal.

Take this for what it's worth. IIRC, when the Sox acquired Griffey, the story out of Cincinatti was that the Reds wanted Brian Anderson in the deal and KW stated that Anderson was going to be his starting centerfielder next year.

turners56
10-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Yes there is a chance of a Lee for Pods type deal.

Take this for what it's worth. IIRC, when the Sox acquired Griffey, the story out of Cincinatti was that the Reds wanted Brian Anderson in the deal and KW stated that Anderson was going to be his starting centerfielder next year.

Unfortunately, the Carlos Lee in the deal might end up being Jermaine Dye. Both are pretty similar players. JD is a warrior out there though. He might be getting old, but he's still getting it done.

jcw218
10-04-2008, 01:19 PM
Unfortunately, the Carlos Lee in the deal might end up being Jermaine Dye. Both are pretty similar players. JD is a warrior out there though. He might be getting old, but he's still getting it done.

I'll agree that JD is still getting the job done. I'd hate to see JD gone, but I do understand that to get something you have to give something.

JB98
10-04-2008, 01:37 PM
I do say that. If you think this lineup's offensive issues would be solved by hiring a new hitting coach, you're mistaken. Walker's detractors always say the same thing about the "Greg Walker Swing-for-the-fences mentality". I'm still not quite understanding how it's so difficult to see that most of this team's personnel is inclined to hit home runs. Walker does not tell his players to try to hit homers every time up. And he doesn't insist they pull the ball every time up. I know that's what many want to believe, but it just isn't true.

By the time they get to this level, these hitters are who they are and they will always be who they are. A good major league hitting coach works with the strengths and weaknesses of each individual hitter. He can't turn them into completely different players.

If you want to make a more legitimate complaint, you can say that the minor league instruction should better prep these guys for the majors in terms of situational hitting and fundamentals. That would be fair, because it's difficult to change a player once he gets to the big leagues.

Here's the problem though, Ranger: We see guys come into this organization and get worse, or else change their style to a power-hitting approach.

For the sake of argument, let's use Pierzynski as an example. When AJ was with the Twins, he hit between .290 and .300 every year, with roughly 10 home runs. Then, he comes to the Sox and all of a sudden he's a .260 hitter with 15-18 homers. This year, I think AJ junked the pull-happy crap we saw from him last season, and lo and behold, he's been up around .290 again the whole season. At least until he went into a September slump, which has featured him trying to do too much at the plate.

With the Twins, Pierzynski was always a guy with good bat control, who would make contact and spray the ball to all fields. This year, we've seen more of that from him. But his first three years with the Sox, he was trying to hit for more power and his batting average suffered in two of those three seasons.

Or take Alexei Ramirez. Why has his average dropped in September? Pull, pull, pull, pull. He's even trying to hook outside breaking balls. It's so obvious to me what he's doing wrong. Where is our hitting coach? Why are no adjustments being made at all? I haven't seen any change in approach for a month.

This isn't really about Thome or Konerko or Dye, as far as I'm concerned. As you say, those guys are what they are. But I routinely see other Sox hitters who are not pure power guys fall into the trap of trying to pull the ball, especially in RBI situations. I realize Walker cannot hit for the guys. But it's ridiculous to see Sox hitters make outs the same way each and every time with RISP.

Someone has to be held accountable for the horrendous situational hitting and lack of two-out hitting. Maybe it's all on the players. I don't know. But what we have seen from this offense down the stretch is entirely unacceptable.

guillensdisciple
10-04-2008, 01:43 PM
Here's the problem though, Ranger: We see guys come into this organization and get worse, or else change their style to a power-hitting approach.

For the sake of argument, let's use Pierzynski as an example. When AJ was with the Twins, he hit between .290 and .300 every year, with roughly 10 home runs. Then, he comes to the Sox and all of a sudden he's a .260 hitter with 15-18 homers. This year, I think AJ junked the pull-happy crap we saw from him last season, and lo and behold, he's been up around .290 again the whole season. At least until he went into a September slump, which has featured him trying to do too much at the plate.

With the Twins, Pierzynski was always a guy with good bat control, who would make contact and spray the ball to all fields. This year, we've seen more of that from him. But his first three years with the Sox, he was trying to hit for more power and his batting average suffered in two of those three seasons.

Or take Alexei Ramirez. Why has his average dropped in September? Pull, pull, pull, pull. He's even trying to hook outside breaking balls. It's so obvious to me what he's doing wrong. Where is our hitting coach? Why are no adjustments being made at all? I haven't seen any change in approach for a month.

This isn't really about Thome or Konerko or Dye, as far as I'm concerned. As you say, those guys are what they are. But I routinely see other Sox hitters who are not pure power guys fall into the trap of trying to pull the ball, especially in RBI situations. I realize Walker cannot hit for the guys. But it's ridiculous to see Sox hitters make outs the same way each and every time with RISP.

Someone has to be held accountable for the horrendous situational hitting and lack of two-out hitting. Maybe it's all on the players. I don't know. But what we have seen from this offense down the stretch is entirely unacceptable.


You guys know damn well what kind of a team Ozzie wants. The hitting coach must go or we add good contact hitting. All the Sox need is balance, we have all the power just like in '05, but we need the addition of the speed/ contact at the top. Kenny will take care of that this year, if he doesn't there will be a lot of problems between him and the fans (Kenny is still the man, I don't think anyone cares so much for the organization).

tstrike2000
10-04-2008, 01:47 PM
But Rongey says it is not Walker's fault.

I think Walker needs to go, but he has his fans, too. One thing Rongey did say is the real need is more contact hitters. Team speed is one thing, but when not striking out or popping the ball up, especially with two outs gets us more like the Rays, LAAAA, or Boston who have more of that. We've all complained about the offense, but we're still a very good team. It's just hopefully moving back into a team that can put that pressure on the defense in a playoff situation and help us be not only a division title team, but a team truly built to go deep in the playoffs.

LoveYourSuit
10-04-2008, 02:08 PM
I do say that. If you think this lineup's offensive issues would be solved by hiring a new hitting coach, you're mistaken. Walker's detractors always say the same thing about the "Greg Walker Swing-for-the-fences mentality". I'm still not quite understanding how it's so difficult to see that most of this team's personnel is inclined to hit home runs. Walker does not tell his players to try to hit homers every time up. And he doesn't insist they pull the ball every time up. I know that's what many want to believe, but it just isn't true.

By the time they get to this level, these hitters are who they are and they will always be who they are. A good major league hitting coach works with the strengths and weaknesses of each individual hitter. He can't turn them into completely different players.

If you want to make a more legitimate complaint, you can say that the minor league instruction should better prep these guys for the majors in terms of situational hitting and fundamentals. That would be fair, because it's difficult to change a player once he gets to the big leagues.


Problem is not a single guy on the starting line up is a homegrown player. Crede was the only guy.

I think the only way you are going to inject a new hitting philosophy is by developing your own players. Right now, there is nothing down there.

Adele_H
10-04-2008, 02:42 PM
Here's the problem though, Ranger: We see guys come into this organization and get worse, or else change their style to a power-hitting approach.

For the sake of argument, let's use Pierzynski as an example. When AJ was with the Twins, he hit between .290 and .300 every year, with roughly 10 home runs. Then, he comes to the Sox and all of a sudden he's a .260 hitter with 15-18 homers. This year, I think AJ junked the pull-happy crap we saw from him last season, and lo and behold, he's been up around .290 again the whole season. At least until he went into a September slump, which has featured him trying to do too much at the plate.

With the Twins, Pierzynski was always a guy with good bat control, who would make contact and spray the ball to all fields. This year, we've seen more of that from him. But his first three years with the Sox, he was trying to hit for more power and his batting average suffered in two of those three seasons.

Or take Alexei Ramirez. Why has his average dropped in September? Pull, pull, pull, pull. He's even trying to hook outside breaking balls. It's so obvious to me what he's doing wrong. Where is our hitting coach? Why are no adjustments being made at all? I haven't seen any change in approach for a month.

This isn't really about Thome or Konerko or Dye, as far as I'm concerned. As you say, those guys are what they are. But I routinely see other Sox hitters who are not pure power guys fall into the trap of trying to pull the ball, especially in RBI situations. I realize Walker cannot hit for the guys. But it's ridiculous to see Sox hitters make outs the same way each and every time with RISP.

Someone has to be held accountable for the horrendous situational hitting and lack of two-out hitting. Maybe it's all on the players. I don't know. But what we have seen from this offense down the stretch is entirely unacceptable.

What the Lords of Pull don't seem to realize is that a strong as they are as long as they have really good mechanics & catch the ball on the 'sweet spot', they can hit HR to all fields AND still get plenty of hanging mistakes and inside pitches to pull HR off of.

Look at the lightweight Iwamura's 2 pivotal atbats against Vazquez and Buerhle. That little sucker barely strided toward the pitch - and the ball still traveled 400 feet each time. Iwa-friggin'-mura!

You're telling me Uribe, AJ, Konerko, Swisher, etc can't?

SoxGirl4Life
10-04-2008, 02:47 PM
Sorry, Boers and Bernsy were wrong, 7 teams have comeback... unless they meant NL teams.


They're wrong every time they open their mouths.

Ranger
10-04-2008, 03:39 PM
Here's the problem though, Ranger: We see guys come into this organization and get worse, or else change their style to a power-hitting approach.

For the sake of argument, let's use Pierzynski as an example. When AJ was with the Twins, he hit between .290 and .300 every year, with roughly 10 home runs. Then, he comes to the Sox and all of a sudden he's a .260 hitter with 15-18 homers. This year, I think AJ junked the pull-happy crap we saw from him last season, and lo and behold, he's been up around .290 again the whole season. At least until he went into a September slump, which has featured him trying to do too much at the plate.

With the Twins, Pierzynski was always a guy with good bat control, who would make contact and spray the ball to all fields. This year, we've seen more of that from him. But his first three years with the Sox, he was trying to hit for more power and his batting average suffered in two of those three seasons.

Or take Alexei Ramirez. Why has his average dropped in September? Pull, pull, pull, pull. He's even trying to hook outside breaking balls. It's so obvious to me what he's doing wrong. Where is our hitting coach? Why are no adjustments being made at all? I haven't seen any change in approach for a month.

This isn't really about Thome or Konerko or Dye, as far as I'm concerned. As you say, those guys are what they are. But I routinely see other Sox hitters who are not pure power guys fall into the trap of trying to pull the ball, especially in RBI situations. I realize Walker cannot hit for the guys. But it's ridiculous to see Sox hitters make outs the same way each and every time with RISP.

Someone has to be held accountable for the horrendous situational hitting and lack of two-out hitting. Maybe it's all on the players. I don't know. But what we have seen from this offense down the stretch is entirely unacceptable.

Who has gotten worse with the exception of Swisher? If you want to blame anything, you could make an argument that guys that come here start thinking HR every time up because of the reputation of the Cell being a homer-friendly park. Greg Walker didn't create that reputation. The players and the park did.

Quentin and Ramirez certainly have not been ruined by coming here. And neither has Dye. In fact, Dye had his best season ever playing with the Sox.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Alexei because at no point in this season was he an opposite field hitter. He's always pulled the ball and been consistent all season for the most part.

You actually mentioned the most significant problem in your post, but I don't think you realize it: "trying to do too much at the plate." Each one of those guys is guilty of it and it hurts their performance. If anything, Walker has stressed time and time again NOT to do that. He has done nothing but preach patience and opposite field hitting. How many times have you heard him say "_________ is best when he's hitting to the opposite field"? The problem is that hitters are going to do what they do and you aren't going to change them. It just isn't realistic.

What's hard for people to understand is that often times it is VERY possible for 5 guys in the lineup to be bad at once and that it is not the result of poor influence from some hitting coach. I know you all want one simple explanation as to why they are inconsistent, but I'm sorry to tell you that there is no simple solution. Firing Greg Walker would not make them better. Adding more balance to the lineup with different personnel would, however.

Adele_H
10-04-2008, 03:51 PM
The problem is that hitters are going to do what they do and you aren't going to change them. It just isn't realistic.
.

Then it defeats the purpose of having a coach - and devalues the role of a manager, for that matter.

Uribe used to be able drive the ball to all fields with authority in 2004. Dye hit to all fields in 2006 and good part of this year as well, when opporunity presented itself. Griffey, Cabrera, Swisher, AJ, Alexei - all of them possess the ability & experience to do it. Even Jim Thome was at his best this year when he hit HR to CF-LCF-LF.

You don't pull off the pitch middle-away (unless it's a hanger of Arnie Munoz proportions and you're "sitting" on that location). Period.

Our star-studded line-up has gotten into poor habits and Ozzie/Walker are unable to "persuade" them otherwise. Actions/results indicate so; everything else is an excuse.

turners56
10-04-2008, 04:18 PM
Who has gotten worse with the exception of Swisher? If you want to blame anything, you could make an argument that guys that come here start thinking HR every time up because of the reputation of the Cell being a homer-friendly park. Greg Walker didn't create that reputation. The players and the park did.

Quentin and Ramirez certainly have not been ruined by coming here. And neither has Dye. In fact, Dye had his best season ever playing with the Sox.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Alexei because at no point in this season was he an opposite field hitter. He's always pulled the ball and been consistent all season for the most part.

You actually mentioned the most significant problem in your post, but I don't think you realize it: "trying to do too much at the plate." Each one of those guys is guilty of it and it hurts their performance. If anything, Walker has stressed time and time again NOT to do that. He has done nothing but preach patience and opposite field hitting. How many times have you heard him say "_________ is best when he's hitting to the opposite field"? The problem is that hitters are going to do what they do and you aren't going to change them. It just isn't realistic.

What's hard for people to understand is that often times it is VERY possible for 5 guys in the lineup to be bad at once and that it is not the result of poor influence from some hitting coach. I know you all want one simple explanation as to why they are inconsistent, but I'm sorry to tell you that there is no simple solution. Firing Greg Walker would not make them better. Adding more balance to the lineup with different personnel would, however.

I think that makes a lot of sense. Because ever since Quentin went down, Dye, Thome, Ramirez, Swisher, and A.J. started to hit like crap. Konerko and Cabrera were the only ones who were producing consistently.

JB98
10-04-2008, 04:21 PM
Who has gotten worse with the exception of Swisher? If you want to blame anything, you could make an argument that guys that come here start thinking HR every time up because of the reputation of the Cell being a homer-friendly park. Greg Walker didn't create that reputation. The players and the park did.

Quentin and Ramirez certainly have not been ruined by coming here. And neither has Dye. In fact, Dye had his best season ever playing with the Sox.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Alexei because at no point in this season was he an opposite field hitter. He's always pulled the ball and been consistent all season for the most part.

You actually mentioned the most significant problem in your post, but I don't think you realize it: "trying to do too much at the plate." Each one of those guys is guilty of it and it hurts their performance. If anything, Walker has stressed time and time again NOT to do that. He has done nothing but preach patience and opposite field hitting. How many times have you heard him say "_________ is best when he's hitting to the opposite field"? The problem is that hitters are going to do what they do and you aren't going to change them. It just isn't realistic.

What's hard for people to understand is that often times it is VERY possible for 5 guys in the lineup to be bad at once and that it is not the result of poor influence from some hitting coach. I know you all want one simple explanation as to why they are inconsistent, but I'm sorry to tell you that there is no simple solution. Firing Greg Walker would not make them better. Adding more balance to the lineup with different personnel would, however.

It is inexcusable that this lineup slumps every September. EVERY September. This is four straight years. EVERY YEAR we hear about the need to improve situational hitting. It NEVER gets better. They've been talking about it ever since the 2006 season collapsed in flames largely because of a late-season offensive slump.

The Sox have obviously identified the problem, a lack of situational hitting, a lack of execution in the clutch. But they can't fix it, and at some point that has to fall on Ozzie, Walker and the staff.

We have an inordinate amount of hitters who stay in slumps for an extended period of time. Swisher has been absolutely HOPELESS for the last six weeks. Obviously, Swish is accountable for his poor performance. He has earned his seat on the bench. But whatever Walker is doing for him isn't working. It's a results-driven business.

Konerko was in a coma the first four months of this season. Thome sucked the first two months. When a guy goes into funk, I believe it is the hitting coach's responsibility to help that hitter to get back on track as quickly as possible. If the hitting coach is not responsible for that, then why have a hitting coach at all?

Any hitter can go into a slump and struggle for two or three weeks. That's part of baseball. But I see guys on this club go into funks for months.

We also have a systemic problem in the organization. Young hitters plateau and never get better. Brian Anderson has the same problems at the plate he had in 2006. Josh Fields has made little progress here in 2008. Jerry Owens is a great basestealer and could be a weapon for this club if SOMEBODY, ANYBODY in this organization could help him fix that long, loopy swing.

Taking a hard look at Walker isn't the only thing that needs to be done. Personnel changes need to be made at the big-league level. The minor-league instruction obviously needs to be improved, since nobody other than DeWayne Wise came up from Charlotte all season to help us.

I just can't see any reason why Greg Walker should be excused for the poor offense we have seen throughout 2007 and for about three and a half months of 2008.

Adele_H
10-04-2008, 04:23 PM
I think that makes a lot of sense. Because ever since Quentin went down, Dye, Thome, Ramirez, Swisher, and A.J. started to hit like crap. Konerko and Cabrera were the only ones who were producing consistently.

But, but.... according to S-metricians, line-up protection is a myth, and TCQ's contribution (over the "replacement level player") in the final month of the season would have amounted to one measly win.

turners56
10-04-2008, 04:32 PM
But, but.... according to S-metricians, line-up protection is a myth, and TCQ's contribution (over the "replacement level player") in the final month of the season would have amounted to one measly win.

But him not being in the lineup sure killed 2/3 of our hitters. When TCQ went down, these were the AVGs in our lineup (numbers in parenthesis are their final AVGs)

Cabrera .273 (.281) +.08
Pierzynski .291 (.281) -.10
Dye .294 (.290) -.04
Thome .251 (.245) -.06
Konerko .236 (.240) +.04
Ramirez .307 (.290) -.17
Swisher .226 (.219) -.07
Uribe .241 (.247) +.06

And that's only average, I'm sure all of their OBP and SLG went down as well. Quentin is not only a great player, but he's a precense. He's such a great player and his teammates respect him so much that they go out on a limb to make up for his performance. Guys who used to bat around him struggled mightily. Dye, Thome, and Pierzynski saw huge drops in power and average. Dye and Pierzynski both didn't homer for 20-some games after Quentin's injury.

PutItOnBoardYES
10-04-2008, 04:56 PM
Who has gotten worse with the exception of Swisher? If you want to blame anything, you could make an argument that guys that come here start thinking HR every time up because of the reputation of the Cell being a homer-friendly park. Greg Walker didn't create that reputation. The players and the park did.

Quentin and Ramirez certainly have not been ruined by coming here. And neither has Dye. In fact, Dye had his best season ever playing with the Sox.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Alexei because at no point in this season was he an opposite field hitter. He's always pulled the ball and been consistent all season for the most part.

You actually mentioned the most significant problem in your post, but I don't think you realize it: "trying to do too much at the plate." Each one of those guys is guilty of it and it hurts their performance. If anything, Walker has stressed time and time again NOT to do that. He has done nothing but preach patience and opposite field hitting. How many times have you heard him say "_________ is best when he's hitting to the opposite field"? The problem is that hitters are going to do what they do and you aren't going to change them. It just isn't realistic.

What's hard for people to understand is that often times it is VERY possible for 5 guys in the lineup to be bad at once and that it is not the result of poor influence from some hitting coach. I know you all want one simple explanation as to why they are inconsistent, but I'm sorry to tell you that there is no simple solution. Firing Greg Walker would not make them better. Adding more balance to the lineup with different personnel would, however.

Ranger, the bottom line is essentially you are one of Jerry's puppets. And just like Hawk, DJ, Stoney, and Farmer you may be critical of players at times (although you tend to defend them more often than not to a fault), however you along with the previous mentioned names will rarely if ever say anything bad about management or coaches. While I understand if you were critical you may be out of a job, I think you are better off saying nothing at all. Playoffs or not, someone's job needs to be on the line for the problems that occur year after year, especially with the bats. That falls on Walker. Whether its not helping hitters make in-season adjustments or not preparing his hitters for pitchers they've never faced before, his hitters continue to have the same problems.

Ranger
10-04-2008, 06:59 PM
Ranger, the bottom line is essentially you are one of Jerry's puppets. And just like Hawk, DJ, Stoney, and Farmer you may be critical of players at times (although you tend to defend them more often than not to a fault), however you along with the previous mentioned names will rarely if ever say anything bad about management or coaches. While I understand if you were critical you may be out of a job, I think you are better off saying nothing at all. Playoffs or not, someone's job needs to be on the line for the problems that occur year after year, especially with the bats. That falls on Walker. Whether its not helping hitters make in-season adjustments or not preparing his hitters for pitchers they've never faced before, his hitters continue to have the same problems.

How about this? You are what's wrong with some fans. When you don't have a good solid explanation for anything, you resort to the "Jerry's puppet" argument. It's old and lame. Do you even know what a hitting coach is supposed to do? I mean really? What his actual duties are supposed to be? If you don't, then you can't speak of his qualifications or job performance. The results a hitter gets at the plate are 90% dependent on the hitter himself. Not someone else. These hitters (and I can guarantee this) are given every bit of information they could possibly want. It's up to them to do it.

If they had a different hitting coach, we;d be seeing the same stuff we're seeing now.

Anyone ever stop to think maybe the Sox are getting the best they can from these guys? Can anyone think of a single player that became a far and away better offensive player after he left Greg Walker and the White Sox and learned from a different hitting coach?

khan
10-04-2008, 07:17 PM
If they had a different hitting coach, we;d be seeing the same stuff we're seeing now.

Well said, IMO. This is a softball team, and HAS been a softball team since the turn of the Milennium, just exchange the names "Lee, Thomas, and Ordonez" for "Dye, Thome, and Konerko."

Insanity can be defined as "Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results."

And Kenny's put together softball team after softball team, with ONE exception since he's been here. So it is insanity to expect anything different out of our White Sox.

Don't get frustrated, don't blame Walker, and don't lose the true issue at hand:

The team remains a slow, slugging softball team, and Kenny has done exactly jack and **** about it.

PutItOnBoardYES
10-04-2008, 07:19 PM
How about this? You are what's wrong with some fans. When you don't have a good solid explanation for anything, you resort to the "Jerry's puppet" argument. It's old and lame. Do you even know what a hitting coach is supposed to do? I mean really? What his actual duties are supposed to be? If you don't, then you can't speak of his qualifications or job performance. The results a hitter gets at the plate are 90% dependent on the hitter himself. Not someone else. These hitters (and I can guarantee this) are given every bit of information they could possibly want. It's up to them to do it.

If they had a different hitting coach, we;d be seeing the same stuff we're seeing now.

Anyone ever stop to think maybe the Sox are getting the best they can from these guys? Can anyone think of a single player that became a far and away better offensive player after he left Greg Walker and the White Sox and learned from a different hitting coach?

I'm not resorting to that argument. Why has Hawk Harrelson had a job as long as he has? He's one of Jerry's puppets. He will never EVER say a bad word about the Sox management or coaches. Even when the organization decided recently to get rid of his good friend and partner Darrin Jackson he said nothing publicly about why the team should keep the guy who he has built a great on-air relationship with over the last nine years. He will also never say a bad word about Ozzie, his decisions, or his coaching staff. You are the same way.

So what you're saying is Ozzie and Walker have done everything possible the last three seasons with their hitters and could not have done anything differently to try and get better results? I find that completely absurd!

Adele_H
10-04-2008, 08:47 PM
How about this? You are what's wrong with some fans.

We need change at W. 35th Street, we need hope. Rudy Jaramillo is the right man for the job.

And get some real pitchers to throw batting practice. In real games, not every pitch is straight 80 mph in your wheelhouse. No wonder they can't hit anything else.

TornLabrum
10-04-2008, 09:32 PM
And get some real pitchers to throw batting practice. In real games, not every pitch is straight 80 mph in your wheelhouse. No wonder they can't hit anything else.

This has to be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. I went to my first ballgame in 1956 and guess what? Batting practice pitchers were the same then as they are now. I've watched batting practice pitchers for other teams than the Sox. I've watched it in both major and minor league games, and guess what? Batting practice pitchers are the same everywhere.

MISoxfan
10-04-2008, 10:29 PM
This is a softball team thats outperformed almost every other team during Kenny's tenure and during the Ozzie years has 2 out of 5 division titles and 1 World Series.

Which teams are doing better? The Angels, Red Sox, and Cardinals?

Optipessimism
10-05-2008, 12:58 AM
We need change at W. 35th Street, we need hope. Rudy Jaramillo is the right man for the job.

And get some real pitchers to throw batting practice. In real games, not every pitch is straight 80 mph in your wheelhouse. No wonder they can't hit anything else.
That ballpark is the best hitting coach you'll ever find. Jaramillo is a well-respected guy, but if you bring in Jaramillo, you're still not bringing that Texas infield with him.

Ranger
10-05-2008, 06:15 AM
I'm not resorting to that argument. Why has Hawk Harrelson had a job as long as he has? He's one of Jerry's puppets. He will never EVER say a bad word about the Sox management or coaches. Even when the organization decided recently to get rid of his good friend and partner Darrin Jackson he said nothing publicly about why the team should keep the guy who he has built a great on-air relationship with over the last nine years. He will also never say a bad word about Ozzie, his decisions, or his coaching staff. You are the same way.

So what you're saying is Ozzie and Walker have done everything possible the last three seasons with their hitters and could not have done anything differently to try and get better results? I find that completely absurd!

You just don't have a good argument to support your stance...and you've proved it here.

Give me ONE former Sox player that got better at hitting once he left Greg Walker and the Sox. Just one. Don't give us any more B.S....just an answer.

Frontman
10-05-2008, 06:28 AM
You just don't have a good argument to support your stance...and you've proved it here.

Give me ONE former Sox player that got better at hitting once he left Greg Walker and the Sox. Just one. Don't give us any more B.S....just an answer.

Ranger, now come on. That's one of those arguments that can't hold up either. So, a player who leaves the Sox for elsewhere could be older, more injury prone, etc. Over the course of time, a player loses his abilities. Look at Griffey for a prime example. Griff now isn't the player he was in Seattle nor is he player he was when he first went to the Reds. By your example, illustrating a player who got better when they left the Sox but in reverse?

Thome and Griffey would then prove Walker is a WORSE hitting coach than both the Reds and the Phillies have. (Which isn't the case, I'm just using it as an example.)

However, back on target with Walker being "to blame." We've all watched sports for a time. Someone will take the blame for the streaky play this season. Which means:

A: an "untouchable" player

or

B: Member of the coaching staff. As pointed out, in 5 years; Ozzie has gotten the Sox into the post-season twice. That's a .400 average (and almost double Ozzie's lifetime average at the plate, but I digress.....) So odds are it isn't Ozzie. Nor will it be Kenny, who put that team together for Ozzie. Cooper isn't going anywhere; as he's worked wonders with Floyd and Danks. Joey Cora? Nope, as he'll leave the Sox when he gets a manager's position. Harold Baines? Sure, because what a spit-fire troublemaker HE is. The Sox can only fire their third base coach so many years in a row before the fans realize that isn't getting it done.

So, if its a coaching staff member; I would not be surprised to see Walker go. I do think it will be one (or more) of our "softball" players; to add speed and defense to this team.

TornLabrum
10-05-2008, 06:46 AM
Ranger, now come on. That's one of those arguments that can't hold up either. So, a player who leaves the Sox for elsewhere could be older, more injury prone, etc. Over the course of time, a player loses his abilities. Look at Griffey for a prime example. Griff now isn't the player he was in Seattle nor is he player he was when he first went to the Reds. By your example, illustrating a player who got better when they left the Sox but in reverse?

Thome and Griffey would then prove Walker is a WORSE hitting coach than both the Reds and the Phillies have. (Which isn't the case, I'm just using it as an example.)

However, back on target with Walker being "to blame." We've all watched sports for a time. Someone will take the blame for the streaky play this season. Which means:

A: an "untouchable" player

or

B: Member of the coaching staff. As pointed out, in 5 years; Ozzie has gotten the Sox into the post-season twice. That's a .400 average (and almost double Ozzie's lifetime average at the plate, but I digress.....) So odds are it isn't Ozzie. Nor will it be Kenny, who put that team together for Ozzie. Cooper isn't going anywhere; as he's worked wonders with Floyd and Danks. Joey Cora? Nope, as he'll leave the Sox when he gets a manager's position. Harold Baines? Sure, because what a spit-fire troublemaker HE is. The Sox can only fire their third base coach so many years in a row before the fans realize that isn't getting it done.

So, if its a coaching staff member; I would not be surprised to see Walker go. I do think it will be one (or more) of our "softball" players; to add speed and defense to this team.

Let's look it another way, shall we? How many hitting coaches did we go through after Walt Hriniak left the Sox? How many of them got fired because the batters didn't produce? How many times did the hitting improve after the hitting coaches were fired?

It ain't the hitting coaches' fault...that is unless all the hitting coaches Schueler and Williams have hired have been totally incompetent.

Frontman
10-05-2008, 06:53 AM
Let's look it another way, shall we? How many hitting coaches did we go through after Walt Hriniak left the Sox? How many of them got fired because the batters didn't produce? How many times did the hitting improve after the hitting coaches were fired?

It ain't the hitting coaches' fault...that is unless all the hitting coaches Schueler and Williams have hired have been totally incompetent.

Exactly Hal. My point is IF the Sox fire a coach, the likely candidate is Walker. Doubtful it would be a coach, however. I think we'll see players moved this off-season; and some might surprise us who go.

Unless the Sox go 3-0 in the next 4 days; Javy has probably thrown his last pitch in a Sox uniform. Swisher *might* be moved, but I certainly OC is gone. Wise probably will be gone. Then, the surprise move I think we might even see the Sox try and move Konerko. Maybe Griffey? I doubt Dye and I doubt Thome being moved. AJ and the rest of the starting pitching is fine. Again, the bullpen will be blown up save for Jenks, Thorton, maybe Linebrink (as he was solid when healthy.)

Who knows.

Frater Perdurabo
10-05-2008, 07:01 AM
It ain't the hitting coaches' fault...that is unless all the hitting coaches Schueler and Williams have hired have been totally incompetent.

It's not that they are incompetent. It's that they share this organization's "power is paramount" philosophy.

If you hit the long ball, you get promoted in this organization.

If you teach guys to hit the long ball, you get to be a hitting coach in this organization.

Frater Perdurabo
10-05-2008, 07:59 AM
Here's a positive post:

I am so glad the Sox did not sign Fukudome. This guy would have been a lead balloon on the Sox. His batting average and OBP declined every month this season - each month was worse than the previous month! I know KW made him a generous offer, but in this instance, I'm glad Fukudome chose the Cubs over the Sox.

PutItOnBoardYES
10-05-2008, 09:17 AM
You just don't have a good argument to support your stance...and you've proved it here.

Give me ONE former Sox player that got better at hitting once he left Greg Walker and the Sox. Just one. Don't give us any more B.S....just an answer.

You may be right to a degree that players have not flourished after leaving Walker. However, I don't think that is the only way to judge a guy's ability as a hitting coach. You thinking that just enforces my argument that you still will never say a bad thing about manangement, Ozzie, or his coaches.

One player to a smaller degree that could never get it going under Walker who had a decent year this year without him is Ryan Sweeney. Also, you could argue Carlos Lee has done better without walker. His numbers definitely say so. Also, if you say TCQ would not be who he is without Walker, thats where you would be wrong. Carlos Quentin had all the tools before he came here. He was just injury prone. What about all the players like Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, Joe Borchard that we kept hearing about in the minors who have done nothing with Walker working with them. And how about a guy like Nick Swisher who's numbers have dropped off dramatically since working with Walker? That enough names for you?

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2008, 09:59 AM
I'm guessing blaming a coach is better than blaming a billy goat... but only just barely.

Yes, make your case for firing the manager; Make a case for firing the GM. They are the ones with real power to change things. But blaming a coach? That's just finding a scapegoat for someone else's incompetence borne strictly from frustration...

Zisk77
10-05-2008, 10:03 AM
Exactly Hal. My point is IF the Sox fire a coach, the likely candidate is Walker. Doubtful it would be a coach, however. I think we'll see players moved this off-season; and some might surprise us who go.

Unless the Sox go 3-0 in the next 4 days; Javy has probably thrown his last pitch in a Sox uniform. Swisher *might* be moved, but I certainly OC is gone. Wise probably will be gone. Then, the surprise move I think we might even see the Sox try and move Konerko. Maybe Griffey? I doubt Dye and I doubt Thome being moved. AJ and the rest of the starting pitching is fine. Again, the bullpen will be blown up save for Jenks, Thorton, maybe Linebrink (as he was solid when healthy.)

Who knows.


Javy's not going anywhere despite everyone being upset with him. He'll be fine as a 4th or 5th starter. dealing him would just create another hole that would be hard to fill. Starting Pitching is the premium position.

Walk may be fired but he isn't the problem. As stated before the people calling for his head probably have no idea what goes into being a hitting coach or what Walkers philosophies on hitting are. We have one dimensional hitters and Walk is supposed to fix them is all they see. Who was calling for Walk's head in 05? We couldn't hit our way out of a paper bag the 1st monthe and a half. Dye and Paulie were barely over 100.

There is virtually no speed or career .300 hitter on this team anywhere thats the problem.

Brian26
10-05-2008, 10:05 AM
You just don't have a good argument to support your stance...and you've proved it here.

Give me ONE former Sox player that got better at hitting once he left Greg Walker and the Sox. Just one. Don't give us any more B.S....just an answer.

Ryan Sweeney.

However, I totally agree with you on every point, Ranger. Firing Walker is not the answer, never has been.

voodoochile
10-05-2008, 10:11 AM
Ryan Sweeney.

However, I totally agree with you on every point, Ranger. Firing Walker is not the answer, never has been.

How much time did Sweeney spend on the big club?

Isn't this exactly how Sweeney projected in the minors? Good bat control and contact, little power?

Brian26
10-05-2008, 10:14 AM
How much time did Sweeney spend on the big club?

Isn't this exactly how Sweeney projected in the minors? Good bat control and contact, little power?

Yes, his season this year was along the lines of what was predicted (.286, 5 HR). How does that explain what happened in '07 under Walker's watch? Just bad luck and a small sample size (.200 in 45 AB)?

PutItOnBoardYES
10-05-2008, 10:23 AM
How about Carlos Lee then? Yes, he was good under Walker but his numbers definitely show him being more productive since he left.

voodoochile
10-05-2008, 10:45 AM
Yes, his season this year was along the lines of what was predicted (.286, 5 HR). How does that explain what happened in '07 under Walker's watch? Just bad luck and a small sample size (.200 in 45 AB)?

Yeah, sample size and first time hitting against major league pitching would both easily explain that.

voodoochile
10-05-2008, 10:48 AM
How about Carlos Lee then? Yes, he was good under Walker but his numbers definitely show him being more productive since he left.

Probably just prime years phenomenon. He was his last year with the Sox and had his best season with the Sox. Since then he's gone through what most people consider the majority of the prime years for a Major League hitter (27-34).

MISoxfan
10-05-2008, 11:23 AM
Ranger, now come on. That's one of those arguments that can't hold up either. So, a player who leaves the Sox for elsewhere could be older, more injury prone, etc. Over the course of time, a player loses his abilities. Look at Griffey for a prime example. Griff now isn't the player he was in Seattle nor is he player he was when he first went to the Reds. By your example, illustrating a player who got better when they left the Sox but in reverse?

Thome and Griffey would then prove Walker is a WORSE hitting coach than both the Reds and the Phillies have. (Which isn't the case, I'm just using it as an example.)

Thome's actually hit better for us than for the Phillies.

PutItOnBoardYES
10-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Probably just prime years phenomenon. He was his last year with the Sox and had his best season with the Sox. Since then he's gone through what most people consider the majority of the prime years for a Major League hitter (27-34).

If thats the case then the Ranger's argument means nothing about players getting better after leaving Walker. It reinforces my case that he refuses to say anything negative about Sox management or players. He will come up with any excuse as to why a Kenny, Ozzie, or the coaches are doing their job to the fullest extent. We already have Hawk for that.

Optipessimism
10-05-2008, 11:57 AM
The problem I have with the "you can't blame the hitting coach" line of thinking is that it often assumes all hitting coaches are basically equal.

If you believe that all a hitting coach can do is:

1) go over scouting reports, watch tapes, implement attack plans and relay them to hitters;
2) look for flaws in mechanics and approach, offer help when necessary, and pray to god the hitters actually listen to you;
3) be professional about your job;
4) adjust to the different personalities on the club;
5) attempt to relax players by taking pressure off them when need be;

then as long as you have a hitting coach that does all of those things, there's no reason to replace your hitting coach with another one of the fifty other hitting coaches available that can offer the same package. I don't like that line of thinking though because if you apply that to hitting coaches you have to apply it to pitching coaches too, and I for one would be extremely pissed if the Sox ever let Don Cooper go because they thought some other pitching coach out there would do just as well. I don't know what it is about Coop, but he does a fantastic job and I wouldn't put him on equal footing with his peers, I'd set him well above the rest.

On the flip side, I understand the arguments of the "don't fire Greg Walker" side because their arguments make sense. I've seen Jim Thome and Paul Konerko look to go the other way and be successful at it. I've seen Orlando Cabrera hit a hard fastball over the plate. Every single thing the Sox offense has done wrong this year, I've seen them do the same things right, or at least attempt to do the same thigns right (Thome even once tried to put down a bunt to beat the shift and get on base). I highly doubt Walker is telling these hitters "Hey, go pull absolutely everything all the time, especially when it's going to hurt the team, and make sure you always try to hit that 5-run homer."

Overall I'm undecided on the Greg Walker issue. What we know for sure is that over the last few years we have NOT had a very balanced offense. The only reason we had a balanced offense in '05 was because Pods was healthy, Iguchi was a great #2 hitter, Dye and PK were clutch, and Uribe in the #9 hole drove in a bunch of runs by hitting the ball to the right side and getting sac flies. Our balance that year really wasn't all that great; that 2005 offense was obviously very effective, but is still overrated because the pitching it benefitted from - some of the best pitching in MLB playoff history - made it look a lot better than it really was. Then in '06 Pods was hurt and we didn't have a bullpen so it was hard to manufacture runs, '07 we had a garbage team all around, and this year there's no balance at all.

So basically, when you look at say Greg Walker vs. Coop, we've been able to tell the difference between Coop vs. the league average pitching coach because Coop has had the pieces to work with to prove himself. Walker on the other hand has not had the kind of team to really prove himself with, because his offensive teams were either not all that strong overall ('05 when they could do just enough but couldn't score enough to relax the pitchers), lacked balance at the top and bottom of the lineup ('06 and '08), or just flat out sucked altogether ('07).

If Kenny revamps this team over the offseason and he balances this lineup out and brings in some guys who can do some different things, and he adds a couple smarter hitters who don't seem to forget fundamental baseball completely when it matters - if Kenny does all that and the lineup still can't do what they're supposed to do then fire Greg Walker.

Optipessimism
10-05-2008, 12:18 PM
If thats the case then the Ranger's argument means nothing about players getting better after leaving Walker. It reinforces my case that he refuses to say anything negative about Sox management or players. He will come up with any excuse as to why a Kenny, Ozzie, or the coaches are doing their job to the fullest extent. We already have Hawk for that.
In Ranger's defense, what is the guy supposed to do? Anyone can get on the radio and harp on everything. You can take any Joe Schmoe Sox fan off the street, put him on the air, stick a microphone in front of him, and have him rip the team.

Ranger's job, like any other radio or TV personality, is not to side with every single Sox fan as if in a bar-like atmosphere and demand the resignations or firings of Jerry Reinsdorf, Ozzie and his entire staff, Kenny Williams, and every coach in the entire minor league system. His job is to watch the game, answer phone calls, and take all that wild anger that shoots off into a million different directions and shine it on the shoulders of those who deserve most of the blame.

The fact is, if you want to convince anyone that the reason Jim Thome looks god awful almost every single time he's up at the plate in a situation that has the Sox down by one with 2 runners on, nobody out, the shift on, and first base is being GIVEN TO HIM as long as he either hits the ball to where the 3B normally plays or gets a bunt down past the pitcher, you can't bring up a speculative argument. The best argument in that situtation is that once again, Jim Thome does not play fundamental baseball when it matters. He doesn't cut down on his swing when it matters. When the Sox only need one run and Jim is swinging for three, it is easier to say that is Jim's fault than say "oh, it's something Greg Walker said" or "oh, it's because Jerry Reinsdorf didn't do (blank) ten years ago when he had the chance."

We're not in the clubhouse. We don't know what these guys are told but I doubt Walker is this bumbling idiot who thinks you can't win baseball games without gigantic home run hacks in cut-down-you're-****ing-swing-for-the-love-of-God-already situations.

Ranger
10-06-2008, 12:52 AM
If thats the case then the Ranger's argument means nothing about players getting better after leaving Walker. It reinforces my case that he refuses to say anything negative about Sox management or players. He will come up with any excuse as to why a Kenny, Ozzie, or the coaches are doing their job to the fullest extent. We already have Hawk for that.

Actually, my friend, it doesn't prove anything at all. What's the point of bashing a coach/player/etc. if there is nothing to bash? Honestly, what's the point? For the sake of doing it just to do it? Because you're upset they don't hit consistently and you need someone to focus your anger so you can better deal with it? It doesn't make any sense.

If you really think those guys aren't doing a great job, then you don't get it. I'm sorry, but you just don't.

Ranger
10-06-2008, 12:55 AM
How about Carlos Lee then? Yes, he was good under Walker but his numbers definitely show him being more productive since he left.


And you should probably go look at the stats again because Carlos Lee has not been that much of a better offensive player away from the Sox. It's comparable.

Ranger
10-06-2008, 01:07 AM
Ranger, now come on. That's one of those arguments that can't hold up either. So, a player who leaves the Sox for elsewhere could be older, more injury prone, etc. Over the course of time, a player loses his abilities. Look at Griffey for a prime example. Griff now isn't the player he was in Seattle nor is he player he was when he first went to the Reds. By your example, illustrating a player who got better when they left the Sox but in reverse?

Thome and Griffey would then prove Walker is a WORSE hitting coach than both the Reds and the Phillies have. (Which isn't the case, I'm just using it as an example.)

However, back on target with Walker being "to blame." We've all watched sports for a time. Someone will take the blame for the streaky play this season. Which means:

A: an "untouchable" player

or

B: Member of the coaching staff. As pointed out, in 5 years; Ozzie has gotten the Sox into the post-season twice. That's a .400 average (and almost double Ozzie's lifetime average at the plate, but I digress.....) So odds are it isn't Ozzie. Nor will it be Kenny, who put that team together for Ozzie. Cooper isn't going anywhere; as he's worked wonders with Floyd and Danks. Joey Cora? Nope, as he'll leave the Sox when he gets a manager's position. Harold Baines? Sure, because what a spit-fire troublemaker HE is. The Sox can only fire their third base coach so many years in a row before the fans realize that isn't getting it done.

So, if its a coaching staff member; I would not be surprised to see Walker go. I do think it will be one (or more) of our "softball" players; to add speed and defense to this team.

Frontman, it does, in fact hold up. It holds up if the initial argument is that the current White Sox players would be better hitters if they had a different hitting coach. The implication is that Walker doesn't do enough to help them. Ok, fine. If that's the case, then it would hold true that players who leave the organization would realize their true talent under a different hitting coach. Well, if that's true, shouldn't there be a good number of former Sox that went on to have great production elsewhere while they underachieved here?

The basic argument being made by POBY is that Greg Walker holds these hitters back. But if he's correct, there would be a large sample of hitters that left the team and went on to bigger and better production under different teaching, but that has not happened. Someone said Ryan Sweeney, but he wasn't a starter here. Carlos Lee? Nope. He had similar years both here and elsewhere. Mags? Nope. Same story except for one anomalous monster year in '07 (and if you think that Lloyd McClendon deserves the credit, you're crazy). Rowand? had probably his best year in Chicago...before going to Philly.

And what's common with those players is that none of them left here when they were over the hill. They were all in/approaching their primes.

Adele_H
10-06-2008, 01:25 AM
If you really think those guys aren't doing a great job, then you don't get it. I'm sorry, but you just don't.
.

It depends on your definition of 'great'. Apparently you believe that decent = great.

Those who don't agree simply don't "get it".

Sounds about right?

nasox
10-06-2008, 01:33 AM
Thome's actually hit better for us than for the Phillies.

A lot of that has to do with Jim coming back "home" with the Sox. He grew up in Peoria, his parents still live there, and he has mentioned many times how he got rejuvenated by coming back to Illinois and playing so close to his parents. A new lease on life is I think how he phrased it.

Frontman
10-06-2008, 05:55 AM
Frontman, it does, in fact hold up. It holds up if the initial argument is that the current White Sox players would be better hitters if they had a different hitting coach. The implication is that Walker doesn't do enough to help them. Ok, fine. If that's the case, then it would hold true that players who leave the organization would realize their true talent under a different hitting coach. Well, if that's true, shouldn't there be a good number of former Sox that went on to have great production elsewhere while they underachieved here?


I happen to agree with you, because I don't think Walker is to "blame" per se; but had the Sox lost yesterday and were done?

He would be the prime candidate to be the "fall guy." That's my point.

HBaines03
10-06-2008, 08:13 PM
I agree with plenty of comments that were made throughout this thread. I agree that Greg Walker is not necessarily the problem because most of these players have been around long enough and they know what to do to fix their issues. I agree that if the players in question would try to hit the ball the other way they would keep from having prolonged slumps, have higher averages, still hit home runs while being better in clutch situational hitting. Yes we are having winning seasons but we could be that much better as a team and possibly celebrate more than just 2005 if a few of these guys would think about the team aspect instead of their personal stats and inflated incomes.
Just a little tidbit that irritates me.....7th inning, 2 outs and nobody on, we are down by 4. Jim Thome is up with the entire defense shifted to 2nd base over to right field. Someone please explain to me why Jim himself or anyone on the team is not getting him to bunt or hit to the left side to get on for following hitters? Just asking.......

Ranger
10-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Just a little tidbit that irritates me.....7th inning, 2 outs and nobody on, we are down by 4. Jim Thome is up with the entire defense shifted to 2nd base over to right field. Someone please explain to me why Jim himself or anyone on the team is not getting him to bunt or hit to the left side to get on for following hitters? Just asking.......

I think the answer to this supports my point in some way. And the answer is, he simply can't do it. That's not the type of hitter he is. If you recall, in one of last week's elimination games (I believe the Monday game) he tried to do it on the first pitch and it was a horrible attempt. Surprising to everyone, but horrible. Jim Thome is just not someone who can bunt.

This goes for basically every hitter the Sox have. Some guys are versatile, some guys aren't. Essentially, the results each individual gets at the plate are due to their abilities.

I've talked with Walker several times, and when one of his hitters goes into a slump, he knows exactly what they're doing wrong mechanically to the detail. The problem is that it isn't as simple as saying "here's what you're doing wrong, now do it this way..." You can tell a guy what he needs to do, but it's up to him to correct it and it isn't ever an overnight fix....and really some guys just aren't capable of doing it the way you want them to. (I liken it in some ways to those of you that golf. Now, obviously, it's not the same as baseball, but the mechanics of the swing are similar in that it's tough to make a perfect swing. I'm not much of a golfer, but I know quite a few people who are and are still trying to correct some flaw in their swings. And no matter what they do, they still continue to slice or whatver. Granted, this is not the same as being a hitter at the MLB level, but you get the idea of how tough it is to correct something even when you know EXACTLY what you're doing wrong.)

Some guys will never change what they do. Take, for instance, Uribe. You think they want him to step toward the 3rd base dugout when he swings at a pitch outside? Or swing at pitches in his face? Of course they don't. All the coaching in the world isn't going to get Uribe to change anything he does. He might adjust for a while, but ultimately he's always going to go back to what he's been doing his whole life.

The only thing that can really be done to change a player is to break him down the moment he's drafted and reports to lower levels of the minors. Some guys (like Beckham) you won't touch...maybe only minor adjustments. Others need to be torn apart and rebuilt at a young age because they have the talent to be good hitters. But by the time you get to the Majors, it's too late for many adjustments.

soxinem1
10-07-2008, 12:15 PM
Uribe will not be our 3B next year. Let him be our utility guy off the bench. If he doesn't want to resign with us, I'm pretty sure he's a B FA and would net us a draft pick.

As far as young speedster, have LA throw in my boy Reggie Willits with Figgins. They don't play him because they have an old crowded OF. He had a great year in '07, then barely played in '08. He's definitely a grinder. :D:

That would be aces with me. He can field, hit, and run. This is a move I can see KW making. He might even develop a little x-tra base power in time. LAAAAA has five OF's for three spots, and let Matthews, Jr. play over him.

steff
10-07-2008, 12:25 PM
A lot of that has to do with Jim coming back "home" with the Sox. He grew up in Peoria, his parents still live there, and he has mentioned many times how he got rejuvenated by coming back to Illinois and playing so close to his parents. A new lease on life is I think how he phrased it.


Jim's dad lives near him in Hinsdale and his mother died several years ago of breast cancer.