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View Full Version : Would you rather see Richard Game 1?


stevied23
10-01-2008, 10:42 AM
Personally I would. I just think he gives us a better chance to win. Vasquez is almost guaranteed to give up at least 5 runs. He had a chance to redeem himself again Cleveland and he **** the bed. No reason to start the series down 0-1.

esbrechtel
10-01-2008, 10:44 AM
I think Javy is a guy you have to start. He has more experience and if he looks bad you have Richard come in early...REALLY early if necessary...

Law11
10-01-2008, 10:46 AM
No way.. I just remember Jim Parque in 2000 starting it off. Dont know how it relates other than I doubt he'd get the job done.

soltrain21
10-01-2008, 10:47 AM
Can I tell you after game 1 is over?

Seriously though. Javy has the stuff to shut the Rays down. Maybe he will use the last couple of pitching performances as a motive to get his head out of his ass. I doubt it, though.

I guess we will find out tomorrow.

drewcifer
10-01-2008, 10:49 AM
Personally I would. I just think he gives us a better chance to win. Vasquez is almost guaranteed to give up at least 5 runs. He had a chance to redeem himself again Cleveland and he **** the bed. No reason to start the series down 0-1.

Javy has pitched twice in Tampa this year and hasn't given up 5 runs if you combine those games.

He hasn't been great in big games, but nothing is guaranteed.

hawkjt
10-01-2008, 10:50 AM
I want Richard ready to go if Javy loses it but Javy has a 2.21 era in his last three starts vs the Rays over 20 innings? This is a no-brainer.

He got messed up when he went on short rest for the first time all year vs the Yanks and Indians...now he will be back on full rest...I think he will come up solid.

mcfish
10-01-2008, 10:51 AM
I'd much rather see Javy. Give him a short leash, be ready and willing to pull him if he starts showing a blowup inning coming. Have a man ready in the pen - don't let it get to 4-5 runs before the switch.

kittle42
10-01-2008, 10:51 AM
Rookie who has shown very little outside of one start v. veteran who often screws up but is capable of killing the Rays? Easy choice.

thomas35forever
10-01-2008, 10:52 AM
Only if it's in a relief appearance. Javy will have had an extra day to rest, so hopefully he'll have better stuff this time.

ChiSoxFan81
10-01-2008, 10:53 AM
No. As poorly as Javy has pitched lately, I have to believe that he can get it together. If not, we have to go down with the hose we rode in on. Richard had moments, especially in NY, but if Ozzie declined to use him at the end of the year in favor of a 4 man rotation, there is no reason whatsoever to go to him now.

SOXPHILE
10-01-2008, 10:53 AM
Javy has to go. You can't put Richard into that situation IMO. You will have the luxury of being able to give Vazquez a short leash with the bullpen having at least one more arm available, and fully rested.

kitekrazy
10-01-2008, 10:55 AM
Why has everyone made Richard into Cy Young because of what he did in Yankee Stadium?

He's still a big question mark after hitters see him the 2nd or 3rd time.

asindc
10-01-2008, 11:02 AM
It has to be Javy. Here are my reasons:

1) The obvious: He's the only one of the four starters who has his normal rest;

2) If Ozzie doesn't start him, we have a high-priced pitcher on our hands whose confidence will be shaken going into next season;

3) If there was anytime for a player to redeem himself, this is a gift-wrapped opportunity. Don't think for a second that he hasn't noticed the clutch performances of the other starters, 2 of whom are younger than him; and

4) Even if he doesn't have it, we have a well-rested bullpen thanks to MB, Gavin, and Danks.

kittle42
10-01-2008, 11:07 AM
Why has everyone made Richard into Cy Young because of what he did in Yankee Stadium?

Because Hawk said so.

btrain929
10-01-2008, 11:09 AM
I think Javy is a guy you have to start. He has more experience and if he looks bad you have Richard come in early...REALLY early if necessary...

My thoughts exactly. Very short leash for Javy.

White City
10-01-2008, 11:14 AM
No way.. I just remember Jim Parque in 2000 starting it off. Dont know how it relates other than I doubt he'd get the job done.

He had a quality start (6 IP, 3 runs scored, 7 base runners). Our pitching staff melted down going into that series, and yet still managed to deliver a respectable showing. We just had ZERO offense.

NLaloosh
10-01-2008, 11:16 AM
He HAS to pitch because if you skip him then the Sox have to win throughout the playoffs without him and that's not going to happen.

To win any of these series they need all 4 starters especially to continue on. We just have to hope that Javy gets it back and he can.

jabrch
10-01-2008, 11:38 AM
Not a chance. For all the pissing and moaning about Vazquez, he has all the tools to be extremely effective. He has had many games so far this year where has was completely dominant. I see no reason to believe he can't strap it on and deliver for us.

Clayton has never seen anything like what he'd see opening a playoff series.

If it wasn't going to be Javy, I'd bring Mark back on 3 days rest.

voodoochile
10-01-2008, 11:39 AM
**** no...

That's just crazy talk...

chisoxmike
10-01-2008, 11:41 AM
You can't have Richard start at all. You just can't.

I am not a fan of Vazquez at all, but I'd rather go down with our four guys than a rookie that can't even throw a ball to first base.

pythons007
10-01-2008, 11:46 AM
You have to start Javy. I say just have someone in the bullpen ready to go in the 5th. His last start wasn't all that bad against Cleveland, IIRC he was lights out up until the 5th or 6th! Javy should take what Danks and Floyd did and say, "Hey I'm the vet, and I should show my team that I can pitch just like these guys!"

I for one am behind Javy! First pitch strikes mother ****er!!!

sox1970
10-01-2008, 11:53 AM
Javy may surprise everyone tomorrow afternoon. He certainly has the motivation after the last few starts. I hope Good Javy shows up Thursday.

WSox597
10-01-2008, 11:57 AM
If Vazquez does start, just have Richard up in the 2nd inning.

Maybe that would send a message to Vazquez, "you need to get your stuff together."

Maybe.

Hell if he can't get up for the playoffs, what can he get up for?

Lip Man 1
10-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Steve:

That's like asking if you'd rather drown or burn to death. Not much of a choice is it?

Vazquez is the lesser of the two evils.

Lip

stevied23
10-01-2008, 12:46 PM
Steve:

That's like asking if you'd rather drown or burn to death. Not much of a choice is it?

Vazquez is the lesser of the two evils.

Lip


Very true

JermaineDye05
10-01-2008, 12:51 PM
:hawk

"Give me the lefthander"

EndemicSox
10-01-2008, 12:54 PM
You think there is any chance Javy shows up with the stress involved in a playoff game? May as well forfeit...

With that being said, Richard 'aint ready for this stage. The Sox are between a rock and hard place, hopefully the offense can put 10 runs on the board.

If, and it is a big if, the Sox can pull off game 1, they should win this series. It's time for an offensive explosion.

JB98
10-01-2008, 12:55 PM
Vazquez is an obvious choice.

Richard had one good game against a Yankee lineup that struggled against lefties all year. Even if Richard throws well, he's only a five-inning pitcher.

If Vazquez throws well, it will be seven or eight solid innings and a White Sox win. That's a big 'if', of course, but I'll take my chances. It's clearly the best option to me.

jabrch
10-01-2008, 12:57 PM
Steve:

That's like asking if you'd rather drown or burn to death. Not much of a choice is it?

Vazquez is the lesser of the two evils.

Lip


Ever the optimist, huh Lip?

SouthPaw72
10-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Well I'd love to see Danks pitch again but that aint gonna happen so why not Javy it is. He is either hot or just crap. Hopefully he is pumped up and will kick butt. I don't have faith in our bullpen at all. I know I should but we need to invest some serious money in there for next year.

jabrch
10-01-2008, 01:07 PM
we need to invest some serious money in there for next year.

Don't bet on it. We just did that last offseason. Before Linebrinnk went down, the pen was pretty damn good. I'd be willing to roll the dice if Linebrink is healthy, that we will be fine next year.

rdwj
10-01-2008, 01:07 PM
I think Vazquez was really upset with the way he was booed off the field. He's either going to go out and give us his best pitching performance of the year or totally implode.

Personally, I think he gets it done!

getonbckthr
10-01-2008, 01:09 PM
I don't want Ozzie announcing the rotation yet. If we win Thursday go Floyd game 2. If we lose game 1 I want Buerhle game 2.

ajismyhero
10-01-2008, 01:14 PM
Danks said something in an interview yesterday about he and Javy both feeling like they let the team down against Cleveland and how if they hadn't gotten to the playoffs they would blame themselves. Hopefully, Javy will be jazzed up the same way Danks was last night.

sox1970
10-01-2008, 01:15 PM
I don't want Ozzie announcing the rotation yet. If we win Thursday go Floyd game 2. If we lose game 1 I want Buerhle game 2.

It's an interesting thought, leaning on Floyd more than Buehrle, who has the post-season experience.

I'd just stick with Vazquez-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Buehrle, and hope for the best. They did ok on 3 days rest once. Not sure they'll go that way again.

mcfish
10-01-2008, 01:19 PM
I don't want Ozzie announcing the rotation yet. If we win Thursday go Floyd game 2. If we lose game 1 I want Buerhle game 2.
Why go Floyd on short rest and then Buehrle on long rest instead of both on regular rest? Especially if we win game 1 - send Buehrle out there and try to put 'em away.

jabrch
10-01-2008, 01:24 PM
I don't want Ozzie announcing the rotation yet. If we win Thursday go Floyd game 2. If we lose game 1 I want Buerhle game 2.


Why?

After Javy goes, let the guys go on regular rest.

getonbckthr
10-01-2008, 01:29 PM
The reason if I have a preference Mark is throwing at home. However being down 0-1 Mark is a must. Stealing game 1 allows to go Buerhle game 3 which I have faith he would win either as a clincher or to take 2-1 advantage.

Rohan
10-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Why has everyone made Richard into Cy Young because of what he did in Yankee Stadium?

He's still a big question mark after hitters see him the 2nd or 3rd time.

No one has done that...
It's an intriguing thought to entertain... We've established that Javy has a history of being a head case and hasn't done well under pressure in the past. So we're analyzing other possibilities..
I would agree though.. Let's get Javy out there and see what cooper and ozzie can do with his psyche.

voodoochile
10-01-2008, 01:46 PM
Don't bet on it. We just did that last offseason. Before Linebrinnk went down, the pen was pretty damn good. I'd be willing to roll the dice if Linebrink is healthy, that we will be fine next year.

Completely agree. We are already seeing a return to early season form in the bullpen these past few weeks. At least for the big money players we are counting on. The big 4 seem to be fine. It is such a tightrope act they have worked this end season but we seem to be firing on all cylinders as we enter the playoffs at least pitching wise. Bring back TCQ and it could be a real fun ride...

voodoochile
10-01-2008, 01:48 PM
I don't want Ozzie announcing the rotation yet. If we win Thursday go Floyd game 2. If we lose game 1 I want Buerhle game 2.

I disagree. Now that we can go back to working on full rest, you take it. Why rush Floyd back again? Then Buehrle is available game 5 again on regular rest if OG decides to skip Javy...

Buehrle is the leader of the pitching staff.

Buehrle is the ace of the pitching staff.

Buehrle is the guy who should be pitching every game he can these playoffs.

Konerko05
10-01-2008, 01:52 PM
Anyone who wants to start a rookie with a 6.04 ERA in game 1 of the ALDS is absolutely insane.

stevied23
10-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Anyone who wants to start a rookie with a 6.04 ERA in game 1 of the ALDS is absolutely insane.

As opposed to a veteran who has pitched a combined 11.3 innings in his last 3 starts has close to a 5 ERA and is obviously 0-3 during that stretch? I'm not saying that Richard should absolutely start but I think we have come to expect these kind of performances from Vazquez. Don't hate on me. I'm a fan just like the rest of ya.

If, by some chance, Vazquez pitches well in the playoffs, do you think that will impact his chances of being back with the team next year??

Flight #24
10-01-2008, 03:20 PM
It has to be Javy. Here are my reasons:

1) The obvious: He's the only one of the four starters who has his normal rest;

2) If Ozzie doesn't start him, we have a high-priced pitcher on our hands whose confidence will be shaken going into next season;

3) If there was anytime for a player to redeem himself, this is a gift-wrapped opportunity. Don't think for a second that he hasn't noticed the clutch performances of the other starters, 2 of whom are younger than him; and

4) Even if he doesn't have it, we have a well-rested bullpen thanks to MB, Gavin, and Danks.

Well put, and I'd add:

5) Having made the playoffs and being a decided underdog, Javy's got a lot less pressure on him now than Saturday when they needed to win or hope the Twins lost.

6) Along the lines of #s 2 & 5, if Javy has to pitch at some point (and I think he does), game 1 on the road is the lowest pressure because even if you lose you still have Buehrle coming in for game #2 on full rest and then you head home. That's better than if he goes later in the series and the Rays win 1 or 2 before his turn which makes his start more critical/hi-pressure.

I'm cautiously optimistic that we see a good (not great) outing from Javy tomorrow. Something along the lines of 6-7IP, 3-4ER. The key will be getting to Shields for some runs early.

sox1970
10-01-2008, 03:20 PM
As opposed to a veteran who has pitched a combined 11.3 innings in his last 3 starts has close to a 5 ERA and is obviously 0-3 during that stretch? I'm not saying that Richard should absolutely start but I think we have come to expect these kind of performances from Vazquez. Don't hate on me. I'm a fan just like the rest of ya.

If, by some chance, Vazquez pitches well in the playoffs, do you think that will impact his chances of being back with the team next year??

Absolutely Vazquez should start tomorrow.

Vazquez is under contract. He'll be the number 4 starter next year--and he'll be a .500 pitcher and throw 200+ innings.

He has value to the Sox. He's just had a rough patch at the end.

Flight #24
10-01-2008, 03:22 PM
If, by some chance, Vazquez pitches well in the playoffs, do you think that will impact his chances of being back with the team next year??
IMO, Javy's back regardless. No one's giving up prime prospects for him, and for a solid #3 or 4 starter who'll give you 200IP and a chance to win most times out, he's fairly or even under-paid. See Kyle Lohse's recent deal as a comparison.

Yes, he craps the bed in big games, but that's why you make him a #3 or 4 behind Buehrle-Danks-Floyd next year. That lets you slot in a rookie (Poreda? Richard?) at the #5 and/or a veteran (who could ideally swing to the 'pen if the rookie pans out).

stevied23
10-01-2008, 03:24 PM
He's got great stuff I will definitely admit that. I honestly think that if he faces an ump with a small strike zone he can't paint the corners as effectively and that forces him to make pitches he normally wouldn't. I have accepted the fact that he is a career .500 pitcher but I wish the good half of that percentage would start happening now.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2008, 03:43 PM
Jab:

Well I guess it could be worse...it could have been Jose Contreras!

Lip

stevied23
10-02-2008, 02:39 PM
Jab:

Well I guess it could be worse...it could have been Jose Contreras!

Lip

I don't think there is a worse.......

soxrme
10-02-2008, 02:41 PM
I would rather have Richard now!!!!!!!

EndemicSox
10-02-2008, 02:45 PM
If Richard/Russell/anyone isn't on the mound come inning 4, Ozzie needs his head checked. Mrs. Vazquez has no place on a playoff team, stuff be damned.

EDIT: Javy is losing now, no pressure...watch him coast!

soxinem1
10-02-2008, 02:46 PM
I would rather have Richard now!!!!!!!

At least he shows more heart.

stevied23
10-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Just a ridiculous display. It frustrates the hell out of me I'll say that much. :angry:

StarvingRussian
10-02-2008, 03:40 PM
After what Richard is doing now, I wish he would have started. Javy sucks.

ChiSoxFan81
10-02-2008, 03:42 PM
Look, we got to see Richard in game 1 anyways. Too bad it's cause Big Game Javy sucks.

Malgar 12
10-02-2008, 05:44 PM
He had a quality start (6 IP, 3 runs scored, 7 base runners). Our pitching staff melted down going into that series, and yet still managed to deliver a respectable showing. We just had ZERO offense.

Zero is an overstatement :(:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2008, 05:52 PM
After what Richard is doing now, I wish he would have started. Javy sucks.

Don't you think Richard is now thinking the exact same thing? Watching a veteran implode 4 times in a row will go a long way towards convincing a rookie that he can do better.

Vazquez did Richard a HUGE FAVOR today. Richard has every reason to believe he's Ozzie's best option for #4 starter. I'm betting Ozzie agrees with Richard, too.

As for what Vazquez thinks about this situation, who really gives a **** what he thinks?
:cool:

Chisox353014
10-02-2008, 05:57 PM
Don't you think Richard is now thinking the exact same thing? Watching a veteran implode 4 times in a row will go a long way towards convincing a rookie that he can do better.

Vazquez did Richard a HUGE FAVOR today. Richard has every reason to believe he's Ozzie's best option for #4 starter. I'm betting Ozzie agrees with Richard, too.

As for what Vazquez thinks about this situation, who really gives a **** what he thinks?
:cool:

I believe Vazquez is thinking something along the lines of "should I go with a Southwestern or Cape Cod motif for my guest room?"

Frontman
10-02-2008, 06:03 PM
After what Richard is doing now, I wish he would have started. Javy sucks.

Complete hindsight. A rookie who has less than a dozen major league starts under his belt shouldn't start Game 1 of the playoffs. Yes, Javy stunk it up; but he was a veteran pitcher who could of had the chance of giving the Sox a "W." He wet the bed, the Sox will try and get a "W" tomorrow.

Johnny Mostil
10-02-2008, 06:15 PM
Jab:

Well I guess it could be worse...it could have been Jose Contreras!

Lip

Injured or healthy? Contreras has had some postseason success before (though I'd agree it may be less likely now). By contrast, Vazquez has now had four postseason appearances and been horrid in every single one. (He did get a W for one with the Yanks--in which the Yanks scored 19 runs.)

Oh, well, enough hindsight. Let's get 'em tomorrow . . .

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Complete hindsight. A rookie who has less than a dozen major league starts under his belt shouldn't start Game 1 of the playoffs. Yes, Javy stunk it up; but he was a veteran pitcher who could of had the chance of giving the Sox a "W." He wet the bed, the Sox will try and get a "W" tomorrow.

EXACTLY. It isn't reasonable to throw Richard to the wolves with a Game 1 start in the ALDS. He did just fine in relief and now has a world of confidence... thanks in part to watching Vazquez prove again how utterly worthless he has become.

Vazquez is basically done for the rest of 2008 -- and Richard is the direct beneficiary -- thanks to what happened in Tampa today. We have a new, confident young pitcher to replace a pathetic piece of **** who must now prove he has any value at all by pitching mop up in the bullpen.

We got a new #4 starter today. Let's count our blessings and move on.

voodoochile
10-02-2008, 06:22 PM
I still want Javy starting his starts when they come up. Yes, I want MB starting game 5 if/when we get there, but then I want Javy starting game 1 of the next series (or if they can push him back to game 3 while keeping Danks and Floyd on normal rest) then do so.

Richard had a nice middle relief outing today, but he gave up a crucial run right when he entered the game and then wore out after a little over 3 innings. That hardly is an endorsement to hand him the ball for Javy's next outing.

I may be in the minority on this issue, but you go with Javy because the odds are he'll eventually do something spectacular. Yeah, you make him the 4th starter and use the other 3 as much as you can, but you still use Javy when his turn finally comes up.

Johnny Mostil
10-02-2008, 06:24 PM
you go with Javy because the odds are he'll eventually do something spectacular.

How are you calculating these odds? The law of averages really isn't a law.:wink:

sox1970
10-02-2008, 06:26 PM
If the Sox are fortunate enough to advance, they'll only need Vazquez/Richard for the 4th game of each of the ALCS and World Series.

You won't see Vazquez pitching before Game 4 of the ALCS. They have plenty of work to do before then without him.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-02-2008, 06:32 PM
You won't see Vazquez pitching before Game 4 of the ALCS. They have plenty of work to do before then without him.

I agree talking right now about the ALCS is a bit silly but...
:redneck

Vazquez WILL NOT get an opportunity to redeem himself before Game 4 of the ALCS and based on what he did today, forget about Ozzie ever trusting him again with an important start.

Vazquez blew it and he blew it in spectacular fashion. If the Sox make it to Game 4, you can expect Richard on the bump with a short leash. The Sox bullpen figures to be well-rested by then.

Vazquez is done for 2008. Don't fight it.
:cool:

Adele_H
10-02-2008, 06:55 PM
I agree talking right now about the ALCS is a bit silly but...
:redneck

Vazquez WILL NOT get an opportunity to redeem himself before Game 4 of the ALCS and based on what he did today, forget about Ozzie ever trusting him again with an important start.

Vazquez blew it and he blew it in spectacular fashion. If the Sox make it to Game 4, you can expect Richard on the bump with a short leash. The Sox bullpen figures to be well-rested by then.

Vazquez is done for 2008. Don't fight it.
:cool:

Personal responsibility (of players to perform)

Yeah, Ozzie didn't make this substitution... and Coop didn't correct that mechanical flaw... and Walker - well, I don't know what the hell he does to remain employed all these months/years...

But ultimately, it's all on Javy. He's the one with all the talent & experience. He's the one making mega-bucks. Even going by the odds/statistical trends, Javy was due for a quality outing in that dome - but instead, he stunk up the joint, even after being given the lead.

In other words: not acceptable - any more than, say, Ryan Dempster choking for the Cubs after being given the lead yesterday would be acceptable to a Cubs fan.

Instead of blaming Piniella/Ozzie for putting faith in their respective horses, the blame should be pointed in one direction only.

mcfish
10-03-2008, 12:25 AM
If the Sox make it to Game 4, you can expect Richard on the bump with a short leash. The Sox bullpen figures to be well-rested by then.
Problem is, I don't know if Ozzie actually owns such a leash. I was and still am in favor of Javy starting game 1 in Tampa. But the leash should have been MUCH shorter. I don't understand why Ozzie would let Javy, with his track record and poor results of late, put you in such a big hole before pulling him.

Everything I thought before the game was predicated on the idea that Ozzie would be willing to pull Javy as soon as he got into a jam. Instead, Ozzie tried to get 5 innings out of him because apparently Ozzie thinks that you automatically lose if you pull your starter before that.