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View Full Version : Ozzie Guillen is DA MANager , big game manager


sunofgold
10-01-2008, 10:37 AM
We usually tell about big game performances from players like Danks, Griffey, Thome, Floyd, Buehrle, AJ.

How about our manager! He is awesome. He made some great decisions (some gutsy) in the last few games. How about keeping Floyd in the game after he threw away a ball and gave up the lead? How about pitching Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks on three days rest? Even..how about motioning in his outfielders before the last out?

If you think about, he has been clutch in crucial games. He is 3-0 in elimination games and 11-1 in the playoffs in 2005. Those are some impressive numbers for the most crucial games. He seems to get the most out of his players in these games.

He definitely know this team better than anybody else. He knows what buttons to push. He is brutally honest , however it seems to work. He will tell a player that he stunk, when he stunk. He will tell a player that he ruled, when he ruled.

I think that is why he called out Javy. He knows that he has to find a way to get Javy motivated. Maybe it didn't work so far, but it could work in the postseason. Couldn't hurt for trying.

Also, it seems to work to keep a loose clubhouse and dugout. He lets the guys have fun and he likes to have fun.

hawkjt
10-01-2008, 10:47 AM
I like how he immediately named Javy the starter...that has to pump up Javy who has not been in postseason for a long time himself.

Motioning in the outfielders one pitch before Casilla hit the bloop is a freeze frame manager moment.

Leaving in Johnny in the 8th after they got the guy on first took guts...but Johnny made him look good by getting the double play.

Simply put, he is the best Sox manager in my lifetime...apologies to Al Lopez who pre-dates me.

twsoxfan5
10-01-2008, 10:58 AM
The fact that he was calling in the outfield and there was a duck snort hit was amazing. I could not believe that happened.

Hokiesox
10-01-2008, 11:09 AM
The fact that he was calling in the outfield and there was a duck snort hit was amazing. I could not believe that happened.

You know? I can't stand him as much as a lot of people between games 1 and 160. But he does enough to get us into positions to win. And then, he turns it on. We have to respect that about him. I never like the way we get there, but we seem to get there. He's now won 2 division championships in 4 years. That hasn't happened in a long time.

kitekrazy
10-01-2008, 11:14 AM
and what if they lost this?

Last weekend everyone wanted to fire

Kenny
Ozzie
Coop
Walker

I'm still in favor of getting rid of Walker.

twsoxfan5
10-01-2008, 11:53 AM
and what if they lost this?

Last weekend everyone wanted to fire

Kenny
Ozzie
Coop
Walker

I'm still in favor of getting rid of Walker.

Take it easy Debbie Downer. Lets all enjoy today and worry about that stuff later.

asindc
10-01-2008, 12:05 PM
We usually tell about big game performances from players like Danks, Griffey, Thome, Floyd, Buehrle, AJ.

How about our manager! He is awesome. He made some great decisions (some gutsy) in the last few games. How about keeping Floyd in the game after he threw away a ball and gave up the lead? How about pitching Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks on three days rest? Even..how about motioning in his outfielders before the last out?

If you think about, he has been clutch in crucial games. He is 3-0 in elimination games and 11-1 in the playoffs in 2005. Those are some impressive numbers for the most crucial games. He seems to get the most out of his players in these games.

He definitely know this team better than anybody else. He knows what buttons to push. He is brutally honest , however it seems to work. He will tell a player that he stunk, when he stunk. He will tell a player that he ruled, when he ruled.

I think that is why he called out Javy. He knows that he has to find a way to get Javy motivated. Maybe it didn't work so far, but it could work in the postseason. Couldn't hurt for trying.

Also, it seems to work to keep a loose clubhouse and dugout. He lets the guys have fun and he likes to have fun.

This is why I've always defended him. He's proven to me he knows how to run this team. In big games, he is always on top of it.

BringBackBlkJack
10-01-2008, 12:35 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Ozzie receives so much flak from the media and Sox fans for his managing style and decisions, arguably more criticism than any other member of the White Sox organization. And yes, maybe he asks to be the target by his eccentric personality. However, he handles his business like a professional and as mentioned above gets the most out of what he's given. Say what you want about him but you cannot deny the fact that he busts his ass and gives his all to make this club the best it can be.

IronFisk
10-01-2008, 12:44 PM
I loved how he managed us in 05. I always thought as long as we get in, Ozzie will take care of business.

Here's his chance to build on an 11-1 record :smile:

CashMan
10-01-2008, 12:47 PM
I love how everyone is jumping on the Ozzie is a GREAT manager bandwagon, just because Danks pitched a great game. It still sucks at managing a bullpen, and it has blown a decent amount of games because of it.

SouthPaw72
10-01-2008, 12:49 PM
:dtroll:Okay, I too love Ozzie. I think he is a great manager,but sometimes I do get alittle worried with how long it takes him sometimes to pull a pitcher who is loading bases and giving up run after run.

I do have to say, last night when I saw him calling in the outfield, then boom that shallow hit to center caught by Andersen floored me. How'd he know that...lol

BringBackBlkJack
10-01-2008, 01:02 PM
I love how everyone is jumping on the Ozzie is a GREAT manager bandwagon, just because Danks pitched a great game. It still sucks at managing a bullpen, and it has blown a decent amount of games because of it.

So it's unfair to give Guillen credit when Danks performed great, but it's all Ozzie's fault when a bullpen pitcher performs poorly??? :scratch:

thedudeabides
10-01-2008, 01:18 PM
I love how everyone is jumping on the Ozzie is a GREAT manager bandwagon, just because Danks pitched a great game. It still sucks at managing a bullpen, and it has blown a decent amount of games because of it.

It's funny how nobody complained about how he used his bullpen in '05 or in the first half of this season, when they were being called a great bullpen. Bad bullpens will make a manager look bad, but I know some people will never give Ozzie credit.

He doesn't abuse his starters or relievers which is huge in my opinion.

To the OP, I'm glad you started this thread. I think it's time to give the man his due. He took a team most thought would be mediocre at best, that fought of a lot of crucial injuries and took the division. Here's to you Oz. :gulp:

CashMan
10-01-2008, 01:28 PM
So it's unfair to give Guillen credit when Danks performed great, but it's all Ozzie's fault when a bullpen pitcher performs poorly??? :scratch:

I've been a Danks fan, since they acquired him , he is GOOD! And pitched insane last night. I don't think Ozzie had anything to do with Danks last night. Sure he has made good decisions, but I would say the bullpen is a huge issue. And example was the other night. Thorton comes in gets a guy out, and error happens and he pulls him. Why?

Moses_Scurry
10-01-2008, 01:28 PM
Every Sox message board needs to have this thread right now.

Ozzie may not be the best field manager. He may not even be in the top half of the league (although, I'm not sure how one would quantify this other than W/L record which says otherwise).

HOWEVER, Oz managed an outstanding game last night. He has pushed his team into the playoffs after numerous injuries that would crush many lesser teams. He deserves a TON of credit for last night and for this season. I know the haters won't give it to him, but maybe the more mature ones will.

One thing is for sure, Oz is going to be managing our Sox for a looooooong time (unless he decides to hang it up). So, everybody better get used to it!

CashMan
10-01-2008, 01:30 PM
It's funny how nobody complained about how he used his bullpen in '05 or in the first half of this season, when they were being called a great bullpen. Bad bullpens will make a manager look bad, but I know some people will never give Ozzie credit.

He doesn't abuse his starters or relievers which is huge in my opinion.

:gulp:

05--career years out of a few people and 3 closers, 2 of which were good.

About the starters, Ozzie has not realized Javy is going back to the 5ip then he blows up. I think Ozzie is above average, but I do not think he is great.

CashMan
10-01-2008, 01:33 PM
HOWEVER, Oz managed an outstanding game last night. He has pushed his team into the playoffs after numerous injuries that would crush many lesser teams. He deserves a TON of credit for last night and for this season. I know the haters won't give it to him, but maybe the more mature ones will.


I am not hating, just trying to be real. Explain how he managed soo great last night. Starting the GREAT Dewayne Wise over BA? As far as I am concerned, the entire game was Danks.

Sox Supporter
10-01-2008, 01:36 PM
I am not hating, just trying to be real. Explain how he managed soo great last night. Starting the GREAT Dewayne Wise over BA? As far as I am concerned, the entire game was Danks.

1. I am sure glad he put BA in CF in the 9th so he could make that catch.

2. That said, your point is well taken on Wise. Who do you think starts against the Rays: Wise or Swish?

CashMan
10-01-2008, 01:41 PM
1. I am sure glad he put BA in CF in the 9th so he could make that catch.

2. That said, your point is well taken on Wise. Who do you think starts against the Rays: Wise or Swish?

I think BA in center is a no-brainer. As for who starts, it should be BA, but it will be Wise since it seems Swish is in his doghouse. I really do not know what else BA has to do in order to play.

Moses_Scurry
10-01-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm pretty happy that he decided to go against conventional wisdom and keep Danks on short rest in for the 8th. A bullpen meltdown would have been a horrible dagger to witness. Considering Danks had only made it to the 8th once this year, and has had troubles in innings after the 6th, I'd say it was a pretty gutsy call.

Putting BA in center was a pretty good call as well. This one was more obvious though.

Also, some managers would have relieved Danks in the 7th as well! Think about it. He had never gone on 3 days rest, and he has a history of trouble after the 6th. Plus, his pitch count was getting up there. Gardenhire, the manager whom everybody loves, took his starter out early. It's not like he was pitching a horrible game.

This game was all Danks, because Ozzie had the foresight to let it be all Danks.

CashMan
10-01-2008, 01:48 PM
This game was all Danks, because Ozzie had the foresight to let it be all Danks.


I still don't think so. Buehrle was on 2days rest, Floyd on 1 day, I guess you could of pitched Javy and watched him blow up again, I don't think a 5th starter was an option. Danks was dominating through 7, you would of had to be an idiot in order to take him out. I kinda wish he would of left him in there for the 9th, but I know he was over 100 pitches. Danks is an ACE, and he will show it in the playoffs and next year.

Jim Shorts
10-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I was shocked that Ozzie let Johnny pitch the 8th, shocked.

I love Ozzie Guillen. Always have. Always will.

2906
10-01-2008, 01:59 PM
I still don't think so. Buehrle was on 2days rest, Floyd on 1 day, I guess you could of pitched Javy and watched him blow up again, I don't think a 5th starter was an option. Danks was dominating through 7, you would of had to be an idiot in order to take him out. I kinda wish he would of left him in there for the 9th, but I know he was over 100 pitches. Danks is an ACE, and he will show it in the playoffs and next year.

I tend to give credit/blame to players vs. hanging it on the manager.

The manager, though, has say so whether or not a pitcher stays in or gets pulled. Many managers would've yanked Danks due to pitch count. Guillen kept him in and gets credit. Just as he would've been roasted on this site if Danks would have thrown a gopher ball vs. a double play ball.

So you can't say it was all Danks. He performed and was great. Guillen gave him the opportunity to stay in there and showed confidence in him. Guillen has showed confidence in Floyd and Danks all year long, which in my mind is a big part of why those two have grown up and are ready to shine. Just like Danks did last night.

asindc
10-01-2008, 02:14 PM
I love how everyone is jumping on the Ozzie is a GREAT manager bandwagon, just because Danks pitched a great game. It still sucks at managing a bullpen, and it has blown a decent amount of games because of it.

This statement definitely does not apply to "everyone." Some of us have always appreciated the job Ozzie does, even if we don't agree with his bullpen handling or decision to start Wise over BA, or even starting Javy game 1 of the ALDS, for instance. He gets it done. Period.

CashMan
10-01-2008, 02:24 PM
This statement definitely does not apply to "everyone." Some of us have always appreciated the job Ozzie does, even if we don't agree with his bullpen handling or decision to start Wise over BA, or even starting Javy game 1 of the ALDS, for instance. He gets it done. Period.


I think you can read my statement and realize I didn't mean it literally. I guess just because I am bored I will argue to argue. From your statement, it would indicate to me that you like Ozzie and you are already on the bandwagon. Which would mean, you would not be one of the ones I was talking about. Yes? If he gets it done, why did the Sox have to play a 1 game playoff?

thedudeabides
10-01-2008, 02:27 PM
I think you can read my statement and realize I didn't mean it literally. I guess just because I am bored I will argue to argue. From your statement, it would indicate to me that you like Ozzie and you are already on the bandwagon. Which would mean, you would not be one of the ones I was talking about. Yes? If he gets it done, why did the Sox have to play a 1 game playoff?

Seriously man, we get where you stand. The thread was created to give Ozzie props because he has been roasted and questioned non-stop in 1000 threads during the year, not so you can argue with every post. The Sox played in a one game playoff and got it done. You want to give 100% credit to Danks fine, just let the people who want to give credit to Ozzie do just that.

asindc
10-01-2008, 02:32 PM
I think you can read my statement and realize I didn't mean it literally. I guess just because I am bored I will argue to argue. From your statement, it would indicate to me that you like Ozzie and you are already on the bandwagon. Which would mean, you would not be one of the ones I was talking about. Yes? If he gets it done, why did the Sox have to play a 1 game playoff?

Because Eric Wedge and Jim Leyland don't get the opportunity? Wow, I guess you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

By the way, Ozzie's 1 World Series victory and 2 Division championships in 4 years is the most successful run by a Sox manager in team history. But if he really knew what he was doing he would be going for his 4th straight World Series crown at this point. Man, why can't he get it together?!

CashMan
10-01-2008, 02:42 PM
Because Eric Wedge and Jim Leyland don't get the opportunity? Wow, I guess you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

By the way, Ozzie's 1 World Series victory and 2 Division championships in 4 years is the most successful run by a Sox manager in team history. But if he really knew what he was doing he would be going for his 4th straight World Series crown at this point. Man, why can't he get it together?!

I was implying they should of won enough games not for it to come to the 1 game playoff.

thedudeabides
10-01-2008, 02:46 PM
I was implying they should of won enough games not for it to come to the 1 game playoff.

Well, it's official that Ozzie is a ****ty manager and Gardenhire is even ****tier because he lost to Ozzie in that playoff. :dtroll:

CashMan
10-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Well, it's official that Ozzie is a ****ty manager and Gardenhire is even ****tier because he lost to Ozzie in that playoff. :dtroll:

Perhaps you should read a little more, since I said he was above avg manager.

BringBackBlkJack
10-01-2008, 02:55 PM
Perhaps you should read a little more, since I said he was above avg manager.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but if this is how you speak about someone doing an above average job, I'd hate to see your opinion of someone who is below average...

thedudeabides
10-01-2008, 03:03 PM
Perhaps you should read a little more, since I said he was above avg manager.

I read you say that, and than turn around and give the reasons why you don't like him over and over and over. Like I said, you can bash him in a million other threads. This was created to give him credit. If you don't want to fine, just don't post in it.

I swear no matter what the Sox do some people will just continue to bitch. I'm so glad I'm not that bitter towards a team I love to follow.

CashMan
10-01-2008, 03:04 PM
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but if this is how you speak about someone doing an above average job, I'd hate to see your opinion of someone who is below average...

I think a team can do well and have an above avg manager, I think a team could do horrible and have a great manager. I think the Twins have a great manager, but losing an Ace and one of their better hitters is something hard to came back from. If I am not mistaken didn't their 1st baseman get hurt also?

CashMan
10-01-2008, 03:05 PM
I swear no matter what the Sox do some people will just continue to bitch. I'm so glad I'm not that bitter towards a team I love to follow.

I said Danks pitched awesome. Floyd pitched awesome. Buehrle pitcheed awesome.

thedudeabides
10-01-2008, 03:09 PM
Thanks for ruining this thread and turning it into a debate about how you feel. :angry:

I'm done with you.

asindc
10-01-2008, 03:12 PM
Thanks for ruining this thread and turning it into a debate about how you feel. :angry:

I'm done with you.

Ditto.

Tragg
10-01-2008, 03:19 PM
Keeping the clubhouse loose and getting the team to play well - A+
In-game strategy: C
Talent evaluation - non-pitchers: F -
Talent evaluation pitchers: B

I think he would be a lot better off getting a couple of real coaches other than cooper on this staff.

LuzinskiRoofShot
10-01-2008, 03:22 PM
I think a team can do well and have an above avg manager, I think a team could do horrible and have a great manager. I think the Twins have a great manager, but losing an Ace and one of their better hitters is something hard to came back from. If I am not mistaken didn't their 1st baseman get hurt also?

Stop while you're behind...

So losing an Ace and a Centerfielder is hard to recover from for the Twins yes and Gardsy is an outstanding manager... But what about losing an All Star 3rd basemen (Crede), All Star Left Fielder and MVP candidate (Quentin), Starting Pitcher (Contreras) for the season. Plus losing your set up man (Linebrink) and 1st Basemen (Konerko) for significant portions of the season.

Also, their "first basemen" is Justin Frickin Morneau and last I checked he played 163 games in 2008.

CashMan
10-01-2008, 03:25 PM
Stop while you're behind...

So losing an Ace and a Centerfielder is hard to recover from for the Twins yes and Gardsy is an outstanding manager... But what about losing an All Star 3rd basemen (Crede), All Star Left Fielder and MVP candidate (Quentin), Starting Pitcher (Contreras) for the season. Plus losing your set up man (Linebrink) and 1st Basemen (Konerko) for significant portions of the season.

Also, their "first basemen" is Justin Frickin Morneau and last I checked he played 163 games in 2008.


When your team is built on speed and pitching it is a heavy blow. I will give you TCQ, but how many errors and what was Crede's BA, Konerko's BA, Jose wasn't pitching so well and I will give you Linebrink. Maybe I was wrong about Morneau, I thought he went down.

Moses_Scurry
10-01-2008, 06:12 PM
I think a team can do well and have an above avg manager, I think a team could do horrible and have a great manager. I think the Twins have a great manager, but losing an Ace and one of their better hitters is something hard to came back from. If I am not mistaken didn't their 1st baseman get hurt also?

Explain to me exactly what makes Gardenhire such a "great manager", compared to Ozzie. What exactly do you base it on? The reason you don't like Ozzie is because you claim he makes stupid moves. I guarantee you that if you look at any Twins message board during a losing game, you will see many posts outlining mistakes Gardenhire made and why he should be fired. You only see Ozzie's bad moves because you follow the team day in and day out. Unless you follow every teams' managers and tally up all of their bonehead decisions, you won't KNOW where Ozzie ranks on the list. For all you know, Ozzie could have the least bonehead decisions of all of them!

Plus, because you disagree with the move, doesn't mean it is the wrong move. If you say that it does, then you are saying that you would be a better manager than Ozzie. I hope you are not saying that.

I'm not saying Gardenhire is a bad manager. I think the results speak for themselves. Just like Ozzie's results speak for themselves.

ma-gaga
10-01-2008, 06:33 PM
Explain to me exactly what makes Gardenhire such a "great manager" ... I guarantee you that if you look at any Twins message board during a losing game, you will see many posts outlining mistakes Gardenhire made and why he should be fired. You only see Ozzie's bad moves because you follow the team day in and day out.

I couldn't agree more.

Following the Twins, I really dislike and hate some of Gardenhire's in-game strategies, the way he publicly 'rips' certain players and protects others, and the way he has complexes about certain teams (NY Yankees) and can't beat them despite having equal or better talent. ... But he clearly is a good "manager". He keep the Team unified, competitive, and doesn't let them get too down after crushing defeats.

Overall, I think he's a good manager. Unfortunately I think there is a "ceiling" with him and he can only take you so far. It's a horrible thought that the best I will see is maybe a couple of ALDS series and nothing more. I mean, having a compitetive teams beats' the snot out of being a team like Kansas City, but ... at some point you want the big payoff, and I'm not sure Gardenhire will ever get there.

I call this the "grass is greener" theory of baseball. Other teams players/managers look a lot better when you only see them 7 to 18 (19) games a year, then when you see them for 162 (163).

Moses_Scurry
10-01-2008, 06:34 PM
Keeping the clubhouse loose and getting the team to play well - A+
In-game strategy: C
Talent evaluation - non-pitchers: F -
Talent evaluation pitchers: B

I think he would be a lot better off getting a couple of real coaches other than cooper on this staff.

An F- is a little harsh, don't you think? Considering that Ozzie was the sole reason the Alexei didn't play the entire year in AAA.

Sox Supporter
10-01-2008, 07:15 PM
Explain to me exactly what makes Gardenhire such a "great manager", compared to Ozzie. What exactly do you base it on? ...

I'm not saying Gardenhire is a bad manager. I think the results speak for themselves. Just like Ozzie's results speak for themselves.

Let me give you one on Gardenhire in the 9th that I could not believe:

I was stunned when he pinch hit for Gomez in the 9th with Kubel. Keep in mind that Gomez has been a Sox killer, AND if he gets on in the 9th, he was guaranteed to steal 2nd. Now, I can see pinch-hitting Kubel, but for punch and Judy hitting Casillo rather than Gomez.

Tragg
10-01-2008, 09:58 PM
An F- is a little harsh, don't you think? Considering that Ozzie was the sole reason the Alexei didn't play the entire year in AAA.
Ozzie wanted Carlos Quentin in AAA - that in itself is F minus. In addition:
He had Alexei behind Uribe for 6 weeks.
Jerry Owens ahead of Carlos Quentin (and Ramirez and Anderson)
Wise (.250 career obp; .086 batting average the last 2 weeks. .248 batting average this year) ahead of Swisher, Anderson and sometimes Griffey AND bats him second.
Last year Erstad ahead of all outfielders.
Guillen wants hackers with speed. (Wise)
F minus easy

CashMan
10-02-2008, 11:00 PM
I get ripped the day before the BIG game, and what happend? Javy had a meltdown, and Ozzie being the GREAT manager he is, waits toooooo long to pull Javy. Man oooooooo Man is he a GREAT manager! Lets start another thread for him!!!!!

2906
10-03-2008, 08:48 AM
Ozzie wanted Carlos Quentin in AAA

Again, for the 100th time ... completely untrue.

2906
10-03-2008, 08:51 AM
I get ripped the day before the BIG game, and what happend? Javy had a meltdown, and Ozzie being the GREAT manager he is, waits toooooo long to pull Javy. Man oooooooo Man is he a GREAT manager! Lets start another thread for him!!!!!

It's real easy to come on here and crow after the fact.

Did you do the same when he left Danks in vs. Minnesota and the White Sox won the game to get into the playoffs?

asindc
10-03-2008, 08:51 AM
Again, for the 100th time ... completely untrue.

Leave it alone, man. Unless you agree that Ozzie doesn't know what the hell he is doing, some of our fans will not concede any point when it comes to him.

2906
10-03-2008, 08:53 AM
Leave it alone, man. Unless you agree that Ozzie doesn't know what the hell he is doing, some of our fans will not concede any point when it comes to him.

Well, you're probably right. But when the same people keep posting the same totally incorrect assumptions, it deserves a rebuttal.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 08:57 AM
It's real easy to come on here and crow after the fact.

Did you do the same when he left Danks in vs. Minnesota and the White Sox won the game to get into the playoffs?

There wasn't a post praising how great Ozzie was at the time. And second, Ozzie knows Javy sucks, yet he allowed him to pitch game 1, which I thought was a huge mistake. I said he wasn't a great manager, although many people said he was, and he showed yesterday why he isn't. You do not let your #4 starter, start one of the most important games of the year. He also said Floyd was in the pen, in case Javy had a meltdown, why did Richard pitch?

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-03-2008, 09:03 AM
...Ozzie knows Javy sucks, yet he allowed him to pitch game 1, which I thought was a huge mistake.

Ozzie stated he wanted to win one in Tampa. So, letting Javy pitch game 1 allowed him to put Buerhle, Danks and Floyd onto their regular rotation days with rest - you remember them right? They won SUNDAY, MONDAY and TUESDAY.

Maybe Javy ends up being the sacrificial lamb for the 2008 postseason. AFAIAC, that's fine with me. You can be mad at all the other things Ozzie does wrong - it's your right, I suppose. :scratch:

CashMan
10-03-2008, 09:07 AM
Ozzie stated he wanted to win one in Tampa. So, letting Javy pitch game 1 allowed him to put Buerhle, Danks and Floyd onto their regular rotation days with rest - you remember them right? They won SUNDAY, MONDAY and TUESDAY.




How many days rest did Mark pitch his last game on? You remember he won right? I think it sends a bad message to your team, telling them you were not looking to win game 1. This is the Sox World Series atm. You do not save them for the next round. You pitch to win every game in the playoffs.

2906
10-03-2008, 09:11 AM
There wasn't a post praising how great Ozzie was at the time. And second, Ozzie knows Javy sucks, yet he allowed him to pitch game 1, which I thought was a huge mistake. I said he wasn't a great manager, although many people said he was, and he showed yesterday why he isn't. You do not let your #4 starter, start one of the most important games of the year. He also said Floyd was in the pen, in case Javy had a meltdown, why did Richard pitch?

Ok, so you like to second guess and look like a genious after the fact. Got it.

Who exactly in your mind should have started game 1?

thedudeabides
10-03-2008, 09:13 AM
Ok, so you like to second guess and look like a genious after the fact. Got it.

Who exactly in your mind should have started game 1?

Your arguing with a troll. Do yourself a favor and stop.

2906
10-03-2008, 09:18 AM
Your arguing with a troll. Do yourself a favor and stop.

You know what, now that I look back over this thread, you're right.

Have at it, Cash Man.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 09:20 AM
Ok, so you like to second guess and look like a genious after the fact. Got it.

Who exactly in your mind should have started game 1?

I know, I LOVE to second guess! I also love to follow a manager who has a mindset of only winning one game in Tampa. Mark Buehrle! His last start was on 3 days rest and this one would of been the same.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Your arguing with a troll. Do yourself a favor and stop.

Because you cannot argue your point, I am a troll, I LIKE it.

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-03-2008, 09:47 AM
I know, I LOVE to second guess! I also love to follow a manager who has a mindset of only winning one game in Tampa. Mark Buehrle! His last start was on 3 days rest and this one would of been the same.

Cash Man/Troll/ESPN fan/whatever - the Sox are 1-12 in domes this year. Knowing that, REALISTICALLY, there's not ONE manager out there that wouldn't want to split and win one game, knowing you can then win two at home and take the series. And yes, you're right, Buehle did win for us on 3 days rest....but there's also 11 games still to win to take the WS. There are such things as constructive losses.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 09:53 AM
Cash Man/Troll/ESPN fan/whatever - the Sox are 1-12 in domes this year. Knowing that, REALISTICALLY, there's not ONE manager out there that wouldn't want to split and win one game, knowing you can then win two at home and take the series. And yes, you're right, Buehle did win for us on 3 days rest....but there's also 11 games still to win to take the WS. There are such things as constructive losses.

And the name calling starts! Wow, how mature. You actually have to win, in order to move to the next series. Answer this for me. So we were going to lose, and Ozzie put Javy in to lose, then why waste Javy? Let Richard pitch game 1, and let Javy get a little more rest.

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-03-2008, 10:07 AM
....then why waste Javy?

The only fire Javy is shown this season is jawing at AJ on the mound. If you plan on trying to win one of two, you save your better pitcher for his standard rest. No one knows what Javy is going to show up.

Ozzie didn't "waste" Javy - Javy did it to himself. Try watching his last 4 starts.

Moses_Scurry
10-03-2008, 10:11 AM
I know, I LOVE to second guess! I also love to follow a manager who has a mindset of only winning one game in Tampa. Mark Buehrle! His last start was on 3 days rest and this one would of been the same.

So, who start's game 2 if Buehrle loses game 1? Another 3 day rest project?

At some point one of JV/Richard is going to have to start a game if the Sox are going to make and win the World Series. That is still a fact even now!

CashMan
10-03-2008, 11:02 AM
So, who start's game 2 if Buehrle loses game 1? Another 3 day rest project?

At some point one of JV/Richard is going to have to start a game if the Sox are going to make and win the World Series. That is still a fact even now!

I think you have to go with the 3 days rest guy. This isn't like the regular season where there WILL be another series. I am not saying I like or even want Buehlre/Danks/Floyd pitching on 3 days rest, but I think it is a must.

2906
10-03-2008, 11:24 AM
why waste Javy? Let Richard pitch game 1, and let Javy get a little more rest.

First you said this: "You do not let your #4 starter, start one of the most important games of the year."

And then you said let Richard pitch game 1.

The way Guillen did it, he has Buehrle set to pitch Game 5 on normal rest if they get there. Which would be the biggest game of the year. Sounds like he knows what he's doing, and you don't. Again.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 12:18 PM
First you said this: "You do not let your #4 starter, start one of the most important games of the year."

And then you said let Richard pitch game 1.

The way Guillen did it, he has Buehrle set to pitch Game 5 on normal rest if they get there. Which would be the biggest game of the year. Sounds like he knows what he's doing, and you don't. Again.

I don't think you got the joke. Someone said Ozzie knew they would lose game 1. So my joke was let Javy rest more and throw Richard out there. Perhaps you should read a little more, before trying to flame someone.

Moses_Scurry
10-03-2008, 12:36 PM
I think you have to go with the 3 days rest guy. This isn't like the regular season where there WILL be another series. I am not saying I like or even want Buehlre/Danks/Floyd pitching on 3 days rest, but I think it is a must.

Well, we'll just have to disagree on that. I think you're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion as much as I am. I just feel that the Sox have a better chance of winning 3 out of 5 with all pitchers going on full rest. It's just unfortunate that that means that somebody outside of Buehrle, Danks, Floyd had to pitch game 1. I'm sure that if the Sox had clinched a week ago and had time to set the rotation to their liking that Vazquez would have been either in the bullpen or pitching game 4 at the earliest.

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-03-2008, 01:08 PM
I don't think you got the joke. Someone said Ozzie knew they would lose game 1.

Maybe you should read the posts more thoroughly yourself.

I never said Ozzie knew they would lose game 1. I said Ozzie hoped to WIN one game in Tampa. But, knowing he put three of his starting pitchers out there with three days' rest (resulting in the 3 biggest W's so far this year), putting Javy out there for game 1 allowed Ozzie to put the other three BACK on their standard rest schedule.

BTW - I do owe you an apology. My bad for the name calling before.....I just don't see how Ozzie can be blamed for game 1's loss based on Javy. Javy needs to look in the mirror and determine who he is as a pitcher.

CashMan
10-03-2008, 01:23 PM
BTW - I do owe you an apology. My bad for the name calling before.....I just don't see how Ozzie can be blamed for game 1's loss based on Javy. Javy needs to look in the mirror and determine who he is as a pitcher.


I don't mind a debate, or a discussion, I do mind being called a Troll for stating an opinion. I am not going to praise a team for sucking it up the last week or 2 of the season then praise them for winning the last 3 games. I know we couldn't set our rotation like other teams, I just don't think Javy was the right choice. I might be wrong, perhaps that is why I am not a manager. I know it is easy to play armchair manager, but Ozzie is not good with the pitching staff. That is a fact. I would of went with the big 3, on 3 days rest but that is me. I hope you are right, and putting them back on a schedule will make them more lethal. I really hope the Sox win and advance, but to be real, I just don't see it happening.

Moses_Scurry
10-03-2008, 01:33 PM
I don't mind a debate, or a discussion, I do mind being called a Troll for stating an opinion. I am not going to praise a team for sucking it up the last week or 2 of the season then praise them for winning the last 3 games. I know we couldn't set our rotation like other teams, I just don't think Javy was the right choice. I might be wrong, perhaps that is why I am not a manager. I know it is easy to play armchair manager, but Ozzie is not good with the pitching staff. That is a fact. I would of went with the big 3, on 3 days rest but that is me. I hope you are right, and putting them back on a schedule will make them more lethal. I really hope the Sox win and advance, but to be real, I just don't see it happening.

We all have the benefit of hindsight. If the Sox lose this series, it's very easy to point fingers and say Ozzie messed up. But there is no way of knowing what would have happened with the other option (Starting the pitchers on 3 days rest). It could just be a case of being damned either way. I don't mind differing opinions. Just remember that it is an opinion and not a fact. You stating that it is a fact that Ozzie is not good with the pitching staff is incorrect. It's not a fact. It is your opinion. I happen to think that for his career, Ozzie has done fine with the pitching staff. Not many managers would have allowed 4 straight complete games in the ALCS!

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-03-2008, 01:42 PM
I think we all agree that we want to see them take every game - but we have to be real and know that with their poor performance in domes, there will be ones that get away from you. No one wants to only win one, but to be honest, winning tonight means Tampa comes here with the wind out of their sails...

Back To The Blackout. :bandance:

thedudeabides
10-03-2008, 02:18 PM
I don't mind a debate, or a discussion, I do mind being called a Troll for stating an opinion. I am not going to praise a team for sucking it up the last week or 2 of the season then praise them for winning the last 3 games. I know we couldn't set our rotation like other teams, I just don't think Javy was the right choice. I might be wrong, perhaps that is why I am not a manager. I know it is easy to play armchair manager, but Ozzie is not good with the pitching staff. That is a fact. I would of went with the big 3, on 3 days rest but that is me. I hope you are right, and putting them back on a schedule will make them more lethal. I really hope the Sox win and advance, but to be real, I just don't see it happening.

That doesn't sound like an opinion. You have constantly contradicted yourself for the sake of picking an argument with everyone that enters this discussion. And I called you a troll because you clearly hate Ozzie and your trying to bring down the one positive thread about him on this board.

And stop telling everyone to go back and read, when your clearly not even reading your own posts.

2906
10-03-2008, 02:27 PM
I don't think you got the joke. Someone said Ozzie knew they would lose game 1. So my joke was let Javy rest more and throw Richard out there. Perhaps you should read a little more, before trying to flame someone.

Perhaps you should learn what you're talking about before trying to post.

2906
10-03-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't mind a debate, but Ozzie is not good with the pitching staff. That is a fact.

And don't try to debate if you can't figure out the difference between opinion and fact.

champagne030
10-03-2008, 02:55 PM
And don't try to debate if you can't figure out the difference between opinion and fact.

Pot meet Kettle.

Tragg
10-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Again, for the 100th time ... completely untrue.
Completely true. Guillen watched these players in the spring, Quentin was healthy coming out of spring, and Ozzie had it Owens, Ramirez, Quentin, Anderson for the 3rd outfielder spot, with Anderson a given to make the team for defensive replacement abilities, Quentin to AAA. Owens gets hurt, Swish moves to left and Ramirez starts over Quentin. Ramirez doesn't hit for 2 whole games, Quentin gets a chance and tears it up almost immediately; then Ramirez backs up Uribe for a month and a half. Completely true.

2906
10-03-2008, 08:04 PM
Pot meet Kettle.

You'd know. In fact you're the expert, pot boy.

2906
10-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Completely true. Guillen watched these players in the spring, Quentin was healthy coming out of spring, and Ozzie had it Owens, Ramirez, Quentin, Anderson for the 3rd outfielder spot, with Anderson a given to make the team for defensive replacement abilities, Quentin to AAA. Owens gets hurt, Swish moves to left and Ramirez starts over Quentin. Ramirez doesn't hit for 2 whole games, Quentin gets a chance and tears it up almost immediately; then Ramirez backs up Uribe for a month and a half. Completely true.

Absolutely untrue, again.

Quentin was NOT acquired to be in AAA. I was out there in Tucson for three weeks while you were in Louisiana or wherever you were dreaming this **** up.

Owens got hurt in February. They didn't know if Quentin would be healthy, they had him planned for LF all along, at least that's what both Cora and Williams said when I had a chance to talk with them.

So again, you are wrong. Nothing personal, but you are dead wrong.

kevingrt
10-03-2008, 08:28 PM
Absolutely untrue, again.

Quentin was NOT acquired to be in AAA. I was out there in Tucson for three weeks while you were in Louisiana or wherever you were dreaming this **** up.

Owens got hurt in February. They didn't know if Quentin would be healthy, they had him planned for LF all along, at least that's what both Cora and Williams said when I had a chance to talk with them.

So again, you are wrong. Nothing personal, but you are dead wrong.

If you don't mind me asking how did you personally talk to Cora and KW? Just like at spring training games or something?

champagne030
10-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Completely true. Guillen watched these players in the spring, Quentin was healthy coming out of spring, and Ozzie had it Owens, Ramirez, Quentin, Anderson for the 3rd outfielder spot, with Anderson a given to make the team for defensive replacement abilities, Quentin to AAA. Owens gets hurt, Swish moves to left and Ramirez starts over Quentin. Ramirez doesn't hit for 2 whole games, Quentin gets a chance and tears it up almost immediately; then Ramirez backs up Uribe for a month and a half. Completely true.

:nod:

If you don't mind me asking how did you personally talk to Cora and KW? Just like at spring training games or something?

It was a dream.

Tragg
10-03-2008, 10:27 PM
Absolutely untrue, again.

Quentin was NOT acquired to be in AAA. I was out there in Tucson for three weeks while you were in Louisiana or wherever you were dreaming this **** up.

Owens got hurt in February. They didn't know if Quentin would be healthy, they had him planned for LF all along, at least that's what both Cora and Williams said when I had a chance to talk with them.

So again, you are wrong. Nothing personal, but you are dead wrong. Ozzie vanquished the far superior Ryan Sweeney for....Jerry Owens; Notice who's on the playoff roster? Jerry Owens. You don't seem to dispute my depth chart...the gap between Quentin and Owens is about equal to the gap between Albert Pujols and Ross Gload - except to Ozzie Guillen. The only thing you dispute is whether Quentin was destined for AAA.
Where was Carlos Quentin, the man "planned for LF all along", on opening day.
Ozzie had him on the bench. And he was perfectly healthy sitting on Ozzie Guillen's bench.

2906
10-04-2008, 07:00 AM
:nod:



It was a dream.

Actually it wasn't a dream. But then again you wouldn't know, you were sitting behind your keyboard thinking you know everything.

If you want to continue this discussion with me, troll boy, PM me.

2906
10-04-2008, 07:19 AM
Ozzie vanquished the far superior Ryan Sweeney for....Jerry Owens; Notice who's on the playoff roster? Jerry Owens. You don't seem to dispute my depth chart...the gap between Quentin and Owens is about equal to the gap between Albert Pujols and Ross Gload - except to Ozzie Guillen. The only thing you dispute is whether Quentin was destined for AAA.
Where was Carlos Quentin, the man "planned for LF all along", on opening day.
Ozzie had him on the bench. And he was perfectly healthy sitting on Ozzie Guillen's bench.

Listen and learn because you don't know what you're talking about.

Owens got hurt in February. February. He was NOT planned for ANYTHING other than competing for the leadoff spot and playing some CF. When Swisher was acquired he was a safety net in case Owens couldn't do it or get it done, and to play other positions.

They knew it would take some time for Quentin to get healthy. Guillen knew it, Williams knew it, most fans knew it, except maybe for you. I don't see what is so hard for you to grasp.

Guillen did NOT have Owens ahead of Quentin on some depth chart. Not sure what sort of newspapers or information you're reading down there, or if you just have it set in your mind. It isn't true. Get the blinders off.

Quentin still wasn't "right" (healthy) when they left Tucson. He wasn't completely 100% all of April. But he is very tough, and started to come around the last week of spring.

It was all about health and competition. Not sure why you don't get it. And that's exactly how it was designed coming into spring training, and that's exactly how it was articulated by those in charge. What real difference does it make, except to you apparently, where Owens stacked up on some depth chart you have written in paper? Except that you seem to have a bone to pick with Guillen and this is your way of saying "I'm right" even when you're dead wrong. You weren't there. You didn't hear or see things out of the mouths of people who make the decisions. Not to toot my own horn because I don't care about that, but I was there.

Ramirez ... he had a good spring. They wanted to see where he'd fit and they wanted him to get his feet wet right away vs. a fastball pitcher (Sabathia). They didn't know what they had, other than Ramirez had great bat speed in Tucson and was a gifted ballplayer. That's why he started the first two games, in addition to (for the I don't know how many times I've had to say it) Quentin still wasn't 100%.

This is all normal baseball activity, it happens all the time with every team. Players compete, players get hurt, one guy rises above, etc. And then the GM and manager respond. You saw what happened. Owens got hurt early, Quentin rose above after the season started. Later on, Ramirez got slotted at 2B because the entire staff (Williams, Guillen, Cora, etc.) saw he could be very very good there.

It's all pretty simple. As for your supposed golden depth chart ... again ... there wasn't any. Guys were there to compete, Swisher was a safety net that would play multiple positions, and play a lot.

As for Sweeney, Oakland wanted him. It wasn't as if the White Sox chose between who to send out there. Oakland wanted him.

Bottom line, this is the way it was, not some mumbo jumbo crap that you've been spewing. And every time you post things that aren't true, I'll post the truth. And in this case, I know the truth, and you don't.

Lastly, any AAA assignment for Quentin would have been a rehab stint, nothing more. Strictly until he got 100% healthy, not because of some mythical depth chart written in Louisiana or a misguided notion by some guy sticking pins in a Guillen voodoo doll. They knew full well what they had in Quentin, they have been chasing him for years.

2906
10-04-2008, 07:39 AM
If you don't mind me asking how did you personally talk to Cora and KW? Just like at spring training games or something?

I don't mind you asking at all. I spend a lot of time out there for business and family reasons. I do my best to arrange my time out there in late Feb. and early March and have been lucky enough to spend a few weeks out there the last several years. Some time is spent in the east valley (Phoenix) and then as much time as I can in Tucson, there is a nice inexpensive motel there called the Lazy 8 which isn't too far from TEP.

On the complex at TEP there a bunch of back fields where they play intersquad or B games and I enjoy watching the prospects and there is always a White Sox coach or front office guy hanging around. It is free and very enjoyable. Further, after awhile you begin to learn the spots in Tucson where the players and coaches like to go ... Kingfisher on Grant Rd. is one, there are several places out on Tanque Verde on the east side, there's a small chain of sports bars called Risky Business, Thome likes to hang out with his dad at one of the locations, etc. Bob Dobbs which is a sports bar just east of AU is another. I have had a chance to talk with Juan Nieves in particular at Kingfisher. A few years ago I'd see Frank Thomas at the Terra Cotta up on Sunrise Drive and the Flying V bar at Ventana Canyon (out east) is another casual place where you'll see the players and coaches.

Williams is always around and is very gracious with his time just as long as you are respectful. Cora is very forthcoming and articulate and it seems he has significant input, plus he has Guillen's ear.

So over the years you get to know these guys a little and they'll talk, given the right circumstances and setting.