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FloridaTigers
10-01-2008, 12:59 AM
To be honest, I don't know what to expect out of the 2009 from the Tigers. They've been following a White Sox trajectory (2005 WS for Sox, 2006 Tigers make it to WS. 2006 Sox are good but lose to upstart Tigers. 2007 Tigers are good, but lose to upstart Indians. 2007 Sox end up in the cellar. 2008 Tigers end up in cellar) so hopefully the trend continues, which would be good for the Tigs.

Either the pitching will rebound, Bonderman stays healthy and Verlander returns to form...or it remains injury prone. And of course, we're not even talking about the clustermess of the bullpen...

drewcifer
10-01-2008, 01:25 AM
To be honest, I don't know what to expect out of the 2009 from the Tigers. They've been following a White Sox trajectory (2005 WS for Sox, 2006 Tigers make it to WS. 2006 Sox are good but lose to upstart Tigers. 2007 Tigers are good, but lose to upstart Indians. 2007 Sox end up in the cellar. 2008 Tigers end up in cellar) so hopefully the trend continues, which would be good for the Tigs.

Either the pitching will rebound, Bonderman stays healthy and Verlander returns to form...or it remains injury prone. And of course, we're not even talking about the clustermess of the bullpen...

Who cares - Can we talk about this here AFTER the playoffs?

Nellie_Fox
10-01-2008, 01:28 AM
Who cares - Can we talk about this here AFTER the playoffs?No, but we can talk about it in Talking Baseball, where I have now moved it.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2008, 02:14 AM
Who cares - Can we talk about this here AFTER the playoffs?
I think he might have been responding to something I wrote in a previous post about the Tigers, sorry! :redface:

munchman33
10-01-2008, 09:27 AM
To be honest, I don't know what to expect out of the 2009 from the Tigers. They've been following a White Sox trajectory (2005 WS for Sox, 2006 Tigers make it to WS. 2006 Sox are good but lose to upstart Tigers. 2007 Tigers are good, but lose to upstart Indians. 2007 Sox end up in the cellar. 2008 Tigers end up in cellar) so hopefully the trend continues, which would be good for the Tigs.

Either the pitching will rebound, Bonderman stays healthy and Verlander returns to form...or it remains injury prone. And of course, we're not even talking about the clustermess of the bullpen...

To be fair, we weren't in the cellar last year. Just a notch better. Just like in 2005, when we were just a notch better than "making" the World Series. :cool:

guillensdisciple
10-01-2008, 11:48 AM
To be honest, I don't know what to expect out of the 2009 from the Tigers. They've been following a White Sox trajectory (2005 WS for Sox, 2006 Tigers make it to WS. 2006 Sox are good but lose to upstart Tigers. 2007 Tigers are good, but lose to upstart Indians. 2007 Sox end up in the cellar. 2008 Tigers end up in cellar) so hopefully the trend continues, which would be good for the Tigs.

Either the pitching will rebound, Bonderman stays healthy and Verlander returns to form...or it remains injury prone. And of course, we're not even talking about the clustermess of the bullpen...

The tiger's won't have the season they had this year next year. That was an abomination. Your pitching went to hell, which won't happen again. Verlander won't have another year like that. Just like the White Sox, everything went to the negative, look for a very good Tigers team next year. Perhaps next year you will compete with the sox!

DumpJerry
10-01-2008, 12:48 PM
The tiger's won't have the season they had this year next year. That was an abomination. Your pitching went to hell, which won't happen again. Verlander won't have another year like that. Just like the White Sox, everything went to the negative, look for a very good Tigers team next year. Perhaps next year you will compete with the sox!
Nope. Their bullpen was the worst, their starting pitching is gutted and they traded their catcher to the Yankees.

The Kitties will not be a factor next year.

Marqhead
10-01-2008, 01:09 PM
Nope. Their bullpen was the worst, their starting pitching is gutted and they traded their catcher to the Yankees.

The Kitties will not be a factor next year.

Agreed. Their pitching in both areas was always their weakness, and they have done nothing to make that situation better.

Bonderman - who knows how he'll return
Verlander - better down the strech, needs to get back to form
Willis - hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Robertson - garbage
Gallaraga - a promising young pitcher who should get better

Bullpen - laughable

Unless they do a ton of work this offseason I don't see them anywhere near the top next year.

asindc
10-01-2008, 01:19 PM
Agreed. Their pitching in both areas was always their weakness, and they have done nothing to make that situation better.

Bonderman - who knows how he'll return
Verlander - better down the strech, needs to get back to form
Willis - hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Robertson - garbage
Gallaraga - a promising young pitcher who should get better

Bullpen - laughable

Unless they do a ton of work this offseason I don't see them anywhere near the top next year.

Yes, as KW might say, they just have to do more to put themselves in a better position to compete with us.:cool:

kraut83
10-01-2008, 02:22 PM
Agreed. Their pitching in both areas was always their weakness, and they have done nothing to make that situation better.

Bonderman - who knows how he'll return
Verlander - better down the strech, needs to get back to form
Willis - hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Robertson - garbage
Gallaraga - a promising young pitcher who should get better

Bullpen - laughable

Unless they do a ton of work this offseason I don't see them anywhere near the top next year.

Bonderman is Detroit's answer to Vazquez. A mental midget with a lot of talent.

palehozenychicty
10-01-2008, 02:33 PM
Agreed. Their pitching in both areas was always their weakness, and they have done nothing to make that situation better.

Bonderman - who knows how he'll return
Verlander - better down the strech, needs to get back to form
Willis - hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Robertson - garbage
Gallaraga - a promising young pitcher who should get better

Bullpen - laughable

Unless they do a ton of work this offseason I don't see them anywhere near the top next year.


That's why I didn't buy them this year. When they made that run in 2006, their pitching was the best in the league, on both ends. They haven't been nearly as good since then, and simply went for more hitting.

NLaloosh
10-01-2008, 03:47 PM
Honestly, I was impresses with the Tigers org. 2 years ago but now things look bleak.

They made a real dumb move with Willis. Somehow, they messed up no-brainers with Verlander and Bonderman. And, now their bullpen is a big mess.

The lineup is pretty old loooking. It would certainly help if Cabrera would get in shape.

But, the worst part is that I hear that they want to trade Ordonez and dump payroll. That's not a good sign for 2009.

Oblong
10-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Those Magglio rumors are coming from one writer and it's just speculation. He's got a 2 year extension that will kick in for 2010 and 2011 based on plate appearances in 2009. He'll be due $45 million the next 3 years. The only way he gets traded is if they get quality in return that makes the team better and addresses the needs.

Dombrowski said he's got some untouchables but at the same time he said when you finish in last place you have to listen to all the offers.

I do think the team will bounce back. When he addressed the problems with the team he hit all the right areas. The bullpen blew 28 games this year. I have no idea what the leage average is but if you just that in half then suddenly the team is at or near first place. The bullpen this year was just atrocious come late July/August. It all fell apart that Friday game with the Sox where Dye hit the homer. That was the trigger.

And Cabrera's not really fat. I stood next to him when he was wearing a T shirt and jeans. No belly hanging over. The guy's just big. 6' 4" at least.

JermaineDye05
10-01-2008, 10:22 PM
Honestly, I was impresses with the Tigers org. 2 years ago but now things look bleak.

They made a real dumb move with Willis. Somehow, they messed up no-brainers with Verlander and Bonderman. And, now their bullpen is a big mess.

The lineup is pretty old loooking. It would certainly help if Cabrera would get in shape.

But, the worst part is that I hear that they want to trade Ordonez and dump payroll. That's not a good sign for 2009.

He wasn't in that bad of shape this season, if he was I'd like to see him when he's in real good shape. I mean he set a new career high in HR (37) and RBI (127)

Optipessimism
10-01-2008, 10:23 PM
Those Magglio rumors are coming from one writer and it's just speculation. He's got a 2 year extension that will kick in for 2010 and 2011 based on plate appearances in 2009. He'll be due $45 million the next 3 years. The only way he gets traded is if they get quality in return that makes the team better and addresses the needs.

Dombrowski said he's got some untouchables but at the same time he said when you finish in last place you have to listen to all the offers.

I do think the team will bounce back. When he addressed the problems with the team he hit all the right areas. The bullpen blew 28 games this year. I have no idea what the leage average is but if you just that in half then suddenly the team is at or near first place. The bullpen this year was just atrocious come late July/August. It all fell apart that Friday game with the Sox where Dye hit the homer. That was the trigger.

And Cabrera's not really fat. I stood next to him when he was wearing a T shirt and jeans. No belly hanging over. The guy's just big. 6' 4" at least.
Tampa Bay could be a great fit for Maggs if they Tigers deal him. The Rays are going to have to open a rotation slot for Price and they need an OF/DH.

Something like Edwin Jackson (who they've been rumored to be shopping) + Jeff Niemann + Reid Brignac + Eduardo Morlan (from the Twins) would be a nice haul that could address several areas. That would give them a SS without having to spend on FA, two pitchers for the back of the rotation which allows them to dump Robertson if they can find a taker, and a potential future closer. I don't know if that's a realistic deal or not, but TB could be big players on the trade market this year and Maggs would seem a prime target if he's out there.

whitesox901
10-12-2008, 02:41 PM
Detroit needs a big overhaul in pitching, you think we have a HR or nuttin' offense. The Tiggs really need to fix there hitting too.

JermaineDye05
10-12-2008, 02:43 PM
Detroit needs a big overhaul in pitching, you think we have a HR or nuttin' offense. The Tiggs really need to fix there hitting too.

The Tigers at least have a genuine lead off hitter, who happens to be a darn good center fielder as well.

Billy Ashley
10-12-2008, 04:00 PM
Clearly a lot depends on what they do in the off-season.

Detroit was no where as good offensively as they played in 07, I argued a ton that I felt they would see a slight down turn in their offense despite landing one of the best offensive forces in baseball in Cabrera this season. This I argued would be the result of good players like Granderson, Polanco, and Mags playing well but not as well as they had the year before (As they are all stars, but not first ballot hall of famers as they played in 07). I didn't expect their pitching to be good, but felt they'd be reliable enough to get them around 90 wins....

So I was half right.

As for the Central, I think it's wide open next year. The Tigers are better than they played this year. The White Sox could be better, could be worse, and I still believe that the Indians have a terrific core to work with (though the loss of Sabathia certainly hurts their starting pitching). It should be a fun division next season.

Michstate45
10-13-2008, 12:11 AM
Pitching Pitching Pitching Pitching Pitching. Need I say it more?

The hitting was inconsistant, but it was there. Terrible years from Renteria, Jaque Jones, Sheffield, and Rodriguez really covered up the fact that the rest of the team hit about as well as you would expect them to.

Having guys like Granderson, Polanco, Ordonez, and Cabrera on the team should be plenty of offense. Heck, look at what the Twins can do with just Morneau and Mauer? or even Tampa Bay. I don't see why there should be changes in that area.

jabrch
10-13-2008, 10:08 AM
For all the Sox pitching "woes" with Javy and our pen, Detroit (and Cleveland) have it much worse both in terms of their rotations and their bullpens. Both will have to spend a boatload of money to shore up their weaknesses.

Just look at Rotations
Sox

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Javy
Richard

Indians
Lee
Carmona
Sowers
Lewis
Jackson

Tigers
Verlander
Galaraga
Robertson
Willis/Miner/Bonderman?

Let's say the #1s are all about equal. This year Lee was the best by a longshot, last year Verlander was. Buehrle was the year before. Any could be the best in 2009.

As far as the #2s, lets say Floyd = Carmona, for arguements sake. Both are better than whomever is the Tigers #2 until proven otherwise.

Danks is the best #3 by a landslide. In fact, he's as good as any of the #2s too.

As far as the #4s, Javy is the one most likely to go 200 IP and be under 4.50.

The #5s are all crapshoots. So who knows.

I'm more worried about Minny again next year than either of these two teams.

It will be interesting to see if anyone goes out and spends big $ on SPs in the division.

Billy Ashley
10-13-2008, 10:34 AM
For all the Sox pitching "woes" with Javy and our pen, Detroit (and Cleveland) have it much worse both in terms of their rotations and their bullpens. Both will have to spend a boatload of money to shore up their weaknesses.

Just look at Rotations
Sox

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Javy
Richard

Indians
Lee
Carmona
Sowers
Lewis
Jackson

Tigers
Verlander
Galaraga
Robertson
Willis/Miner/Bonderman?

Let's say the #1s are all about equal. This year Lee was the best by a longshot, last year Verlander was. Buehrle was the year before. Any could be the best in 2009.

As far as the #2s, lets say Floyd = Carmona, for arguements sake. Both are better than whomever is the Tigers #2 until proven otherwise.

Danks is the best #3 by a landslide. In fact, he's as good as any of the #2s too.

As far as the #4s, Javy is the one most likely to go 200 IP and be under 4.50.

The #5s are all crapshoots. So who knows.

I'm more worried about Minny again next year than either of these two teams.

It will be interesting to see if anyone goes out and spends big $ on SPs in the division.

I'd agree with your general point but...

I'd rank Floyd below Danks by a healthy margin.

On paper the White Sox clearly have the best rotation, and it's not even close. Let's examine it further.

1. Danks-

Danks is an elite starter now. He's leap frogged Buehrle. The only issue with Danks is that he saw a big leap in his IP totals this year. Unfortunately, given the way the division played out, Gullien was unable to give him adequate rest to avoid such an increase in work load. This is no ones fault, it's how the season progressed (The same is true of Boston's Lester). In the end you risk development if you have a realistic shot at a title and the White Sox had a legit shot this year. That said, given the work load increase we could very well see a regression. Additionally given his age and that increase, Guillen's got to be careful to monitor for injury. Danks (and Lester for that matter) both have chances to be Andy Pettitte. However, injury could turn them into Wade Miller or Mark Mulder as well.

2. Buehrle-

Another year, another typical solid in every aspect effort from the southpaw. He's an underrated pitcher. Next year, there isn't much reason to expect regression.

3. Floyd (This is where I'm gonna get hammered by other posters on this board)-

Floyd looks great right now, but wasn't actually that good of a pitcher this season. Compared to last season, his K numbers stayed the same, his walk numbers went up, his LD% and FB% remained virtually identical and his home run rate was halved? That doesn't make a lick of sense. He should have allowed near 50 home runs this season. His BABIP was also a freakishly low .268. His ERA is unsustainable, he had a FIP of 4.77 and that's not even addressing the bizarre cut in his home run rate. Really he was lucky to have an ERA below 5.50 this year playing half his game in such a bandbox.

4. Vasquez-

Was the anti Floyd this year. He pitched a hell of a lot better than his ERA would suggest. According to his peripherals (K rate, walk rate and so on) he should have had an ERA around 3.80 this year. Now this is not new territory for Vasquez as he's had some of these types of seasons before (and they're no doubt frustrating). However, he's a tremendous candidate for a big bounce back year next season. Unfortunately given that he's a fly ball pitcher playing in Chicago, he'll always give up bombs. But he should be a whole lot better next season.

In short, I very much dig 3/4 of Chicago's definite starting five next season. I can't make that same claim about many other clubs.

whitesox901
10-13-2008, 11:16 AM
For all the Sox pitching "woes" with Javy and our pen, Detroit (and Cleveland) have it much worse both in terms of their rotations and their bullpens. Both will have to spend a boatload of money to shore up their weaknesses.

Just look at Rotations
Sox

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Javy
Richard

Indians
Lee
Carmona
Sowers
Lewis
Jackson

Tigers
Verlander
Galaraga
Robertson
Willis/Miner/Bonderman?

Let's say the #1s are all about equal. This year Lee was the best by a longshot, last year Verlander was. Buehrle was the year before. Any could be the best in 2009.

As far as the #2s, lets say Floyd = Carmona, for arguements sake. Both are better than whomever is the Tigers #2 until proven otherwise.

Danks is the best #3 by a landslide. In fact, he's as good as any of the #2s too.

As far as the #4s, Javy is the one most likely to go 200 IP and be under 4.50.

The #5s are all crapshoots. So who knows.

I'm more worried about Minny again next year than either of these two teams.

It will be interesting to see if anyone goes out and spends big $ on SPs in the division.

All of Detroit Possible Starters:

Verlander: Good 2006 & 2007, bad 2008. Look for a better 2009

Minor: Good as a reliver, as a start, iffy.

Galarraga: Good year last year, probable #2 starter

Robertson: Had one winning season, he'll be in the rotation with all the money the Tiggz owe him

Willis: Good times, bad times. NL pitcher comes to the AL and gets shelled the first year. Overpaid, probably in Rotation because of it.

Garcia: They're hoping he does will in winter ball and if so, look for an invite to spring training.

Bullpen:
Rodney: Alot of bad innings, alot listening to my sister moaning & cussing when he gives up runs

Zumaya: Constant injury to arms

Lopez & Dolsi: Pretty reliable

Glover, Fossum & Seay: 4.45+ ERA

INDIANS: Dont really know alot about them, no-one in my household watched them like they did with Detroit. But we all know what theyre capible of. I like Cleveland's pitching better than I do Detroits, But maybe everyone in Mo-Town will pitch monster seasons. But Im liking Mark, Gavin and Jon better than Cliff, Fuasto and Sowers in the Mistake by the Lake

ROYALS: Young, and isnt that what they want?

TWINKIES: Who knows

Oblong
10-13-2008, 12:25 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Detroit starts the season with 5 or 6 guys on the pitching staff that were not on the team at any time last year.

Willis and Nate will not be given starting jobs just because of their contracts. They'll eat the deals if they have to. They're also not counting on Zumaya or Rodney in their plans at this point. Those are two things the organization has pretty much admitted to.

Once August hit in 2008 the team was just throwing arms out there to see if anything stood out. Garcia's the only one who did. But they still have to sign him. He's a free agent. He says he'll give Detroit first crack but I'd feel better about it if he were already signed. If he does will in the winter leagues then teams will start lining up. He looked pretty good in his starts in Detroit this year.

I think the 2009 Tiger team will be a lot different from the 2008 team so it's hard to judge right now how good or bad they'll be.

The Royals are a franchise that's scaring me. They've got a good GM now and their owner's ready to spend his Wal Mart money.

Billy Ashley
10-13-2008, 12:30 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Detroit starts the season with 5 or 6 guys on the pitching staff that were not on the team at any time last year.

Willis and Nate will not be given starting jobs just because of their contracts. They'll eat the deals if they have to. They're also not counting on Zumaya or Rodney in their plans at this point. Those are two things the organization has pretty much admitted to.

Once August hit in 2008 the team was just throwing arms out there to see if anything stood out. Garcia's the only one who did. But they still have to sign him. He's a free agent. He says he'll give Detroit first crack but I'd feel better about it if he were already signed. If he does will in the winter leagues then teams will start lining up. He looked pretty good in his starts in Detroit this year.

I think the 2009 Tiger team will be a lot different from the 2008 team so it's hard to judge right now how good or bad they'll be.

The Royals are a franchise that's scaring me. They've got a good GM now and their owner's ready to spend his Wal Mart money.

I like Moore, but the Royals don't have much to build with right now.

Grienke and Meche are a solid 1-2
Gordon is a very solid 3b
Butler is a very talented bat with no position
Aviles is likely to regress
Guillen is ok
Soria is of course awesome but his value is limited due to his role

I just don't see how they're that big a threat. It's not like they have the depth in the minors that the Rays have.

Sox4ever77
10-13-2008, 12:37 PM
I'd agree with your general point but...

I'd rank Floyd below Danks by a healthy margin.

On paper the White Sox clearly have the best rotation, and it's not even close. Let's examine it further.

1. Danks-

Danks is an elite starter now. He's leap frogged Buehrle. The only issue with Danks is that he saw a big leap in his IP totals this year. Unfortunately, given the way the division played out, Gullien was unable to give him adequate rest to avoid such an increase in work load. This is no ones fault, it's how the season progressed (The same is true of Boston's Lester). In the end you risk development if you have a realistic shot at a title and the White Sox had a legit shot this year. That said, given the work load increase we could very well see a regression. Additionally given his age and that increase, Guillen's got to be careful to monitor for injury. Danks (and Lester for that matter) both have chances to be Andy Pettitte. However, injury could turn them into Wade Miller or Mark Mulder as well.

2. Buehrle-

Another year, another typical solid in every aspect effort from the southpaw. He's an underrated pitcher. Next year, there isn't much reason to expect regression.

3. Floyd (This is where I'm gonna get hammered by other posters on this board)-

Floyd looks great right now, but wasn't actually that good of a pitcher this season. Compared to last season, his K numbers stayed the same, his walk numbers went up, his LD% and FB% remained virtually identical and his home run rate was halved? That doesn't make a lick of sense. He should have allowed near 50 home runs this season. His BABIP was also a freakishly low .268. His ERA is unsustainable, he had a FIP of 4.77 and that's not even addressing the bizarre cut in his home run rate. Really he was lucky to have an ERA below 5.50 this year playing half his game in such a bandbox.

4. Vasquez-

Was the anti Floyd this year. He pitched a hell of a lot better than his ERA would suggest. According to his peripherals (K rate, walk rate and so on) he should have had an ERA around 3.80 this year. Now this is not new territory for Vasquez as he's had some of these types of seasons before (and they're no doubt frustrating). However, he's a tremendous candidate for a big bounce back year next season. Unfortunately given that he's a fly ball pitcher playing in Chicago, he'll always give up bombs. But he should be a whole lot better next season.

In short, I very much dig 3/4 of Chicago's definite starting five next season. I can't make that same claim about many other clubs.

There is no way I would list Danks as an elite starter. He's had ONE year. Big deal. There are one year wonders all over the place. Until he proves he's an elite starter for 3-4 years, he's a question mark.

WhiteSox5187
10-13-2008, 04:21 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Detroit starts the season with 5 or 6 guys on the pitching staff that were not on the team at any time last year.

Willis and Nate will not be given starting jobs just because of their contracts. They'll eat the deals if they have to. They're also not counting on Zumaya or Rodney in their plans at this point. Those are two things the organization has pretty much admitted to.

Once August hit in 2008 the team was just throwing arms out there to see if anything stood out. Garcia's the only one who did. But they still have to sign him. He's a free agent. He says he'll give Detroit first crack but I'd feel better about it if he were already signed. If he does will in the winter leagues then teams will start lining up. He looked pretty good in his starts in Detroit this year.

I think the 2009 Tiger team will be a lot different from the 2008 team so it's hard to judge right now how good or bad they'll be.

The Royals are a franchise that's scaring me. They've got a good GM now and their owner's ready to spend his Wal Mart money.
In that make up game, Garcia left because of shoulder discomfort, no? I wouldn't really count on anything from Freddy, there are a lot of innings in that arm and I think he's just about done. The Tigers do have a good core offense with Granderson, Maggs, and Caberera...but I don't think you can count on Renteria, Polonco (who is getting near the end of the line) or Sheffield. And the pitching is a disaster. But we'll see. I didn't think they'd do anything in '06 either.