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View Full Version : Kyle Lohse- 4 yr/41 million?


hawkjt
09-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Wow....what a great country. He is nothing last year,comes up good this year and boom...lifetime security.

Inflation on starting pitching continues unabated. If he was still in the AL he would be bad but in the NL...he is golden. No wonder Freddy Garcia wanted to pitch well today...hell, he is worth 30 million easy.

kittle42
09-29-2008, 10:29 PM
This is why people complaining about Vazquez's contract are wrong.

FedEx227
09-29-2008, 10:31 PM
Oh good god what an awful deal.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_0_20080928.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_4_20080928.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_6_20080928.png

Looks like a career year to me. Good for him, he got paid. But that's a deal that's going to bite them in the ass.

champagne030
09-29-2008, 10:36 PM
Oh good god what an awful deal.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_0_20080928.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_4_20080928.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/739_P_season_mini_6_20080928.png

Looks like a career year to me. Good for him, he got paid. But that's a deal that's going to bite them in the ass.

I agree he produced, in what looks like a career year, but maybe Duncan saw/fixed something. He's basically our Coop. Unless he blows out his arm, I'd bet he earns his contract with salaries being what they are....

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:39 PM
I tend to think you're right. His FIP isn't terrible, but his K numbers dipped a bit (though it came with a dip in BBs as well).

He's the definition of league average, I guess that's what they get paid these days but man... that's a lot of money that could be invested in the draft or something else that may have upside.

pierzynski07
09-29-2008, 11:06 PM
He was crappy, even in the NL, before this year. Good for him, but wow.

DSpivack
09-29-2008, 11:13 PM
Cardinals are desperate for pitching, might as well hold onto him, although that price seems steep.

jabrch
09-29-2008, 11:25 PM
this is why people complaining about vazquez's contract are wrong.

exactly!

That said, this is the price a 5th starter goes for. Want one? Or do you want to trot out guys who MAY not be ready yet?

Me personally - I'm happy with a veteran starter in the back of the rotation. This is a large price to pay for an average guy - but it is the market. Just look at what other guys got last year.

SoxSpeed22
09-30-2008, 12:35 AM
Loshe is one good example as to why Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach in baseball. Even though I love Coop, Duncan has habitually made decent pitchers out of crappy veterans. I don't think this will work out well for St. Louis once teams adjusts to him.

palehozenychicty
09-30-2008, 08:54 AM
exactly!

That said, this is the price a 5th starter goes for. Want one? Or do you want to trot out guys who MAY not be ready yet?

Me personally - I'm happy with a veteran starter in the back of the rotation. This is a large price to pay for an average guy - but it is the market. Just look at what other guys got last year.


I'd prefer the latter if the former won't give you a significantly better performance. Plus the latter may rise above what the former does in time. Vazquez is really nothing more than a fifth starter, but if I could use his salary to sign and develop two aces on the level of Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay/Santana/Sabathia, then I'm for it.

jabrch
09-30-2008, 10:07 AM
I'd prefer the latter if the former won't give you a significantly better performance. Plus the latter may rise above what the former does in time. Vazquez is really nothing more than a fifth starter, but if I could use his salary to sign and develop two aces on the level of Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay/Santana/Sabathia, then I'm for it.


I'm not sure how you think Javy isn't significantly better than the person who we would replace him with. That's Broadway or Richard.

We don't have a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay/etc. sitting in AA or AAA just waiting. Even when we had Gio and DLS, we STILL didn't have that. If you want to see us trot out Clayton Richard and Lance Broadway as our #4 and #5 next year, then I hope you are willing to stand by that all season. For some reason I don't see it. Javy is a solid middle of the rotation guy. ERA around 4.50, will throw 200 IP, no history of injury, that's important. The first two months of the season, when nobody was hitting, Javy was a star for this team. People have no since forgotten it, but Javy had a 3.43 ERA after May. He had 1 start with over 4 ER in his first 12. He had 1 with over 5 in his first 17. He has struggled lately - but Javy Vazquez is a big part of why we are here today (both positive and negative). There's nobody out there right now who we have that I'd want in the 4th spot over him. And we are going to already need to fill #5.

Sure - we'd all love a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay to come from the system. Floyd and Danks (neither ours - but both young) are what we have. But Javy isn't blocking that person. And if we dump Javy as a salary dump, and don't replace him with someone who can deliver at least what he can, we can pretty much give up on next year. I'd hate to see Buehrle/Floyd/Danks/Richard/Broadway as the OD rotation with Poreda as plan B...

hawkjt
09-30-2008, 10:35 AM
I also think Javy is getting hammered a bit too much around town. He had 7 consecutive ''quality'' starts prior to working vs the Yanks on 3 days rest,getting murdered, then vs the Twins on full rest,getting nailed, then on 3 days vs the Indians (where he did have a stretch of 11 straight and was in the fifth giving up one run before blowing up).

So since he went on 3 days rest he has sucked but before that he was good for 7 straight starts. I say he should start Thursday on full rest if the Sox win tonite.
Then MB can go friday on full rest and Gavin can go sunday with an extra days rest which he needs...and Danks on Monday with an extra day...Ozzie needs to go with this setup for the long haul.

kittle42
09-30-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure how you think Javy isn't significantly better than the person who we would replace him with. That's Broadway or Richard.

We don't have a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay/etc. sitting in AA or AAA just waiting. Even when we had Gio and DLS, we STILL didn't have that. If you want to see us trot out Clayton Richard and Lance Broadway as our #4 and #5 next year, then I hope you are willing to stand by that all season. For some reason I don't see it. Javy is a solid middle of the rotation guy. ERA around 4.50, will throw 200 IP, no history of injury, that's important. The first two months of the season, when nobody was hitting, Javy was a star for this team. People have no since forgotten it, but Javy had a 3.43 ERA after May. He had 1 start with over 4 ER in his first 12. He had 1 with over 5 in his first 17. He has struggled lately - but Javy Vazquez is a big part of why we are here today (both positive and negative). There's nobody out there right now who we have that I'd want in the 4th spot over him. And we are going to already need to fill #5.

Sure - we'd all love a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay to come from the system. Floyd and Danks (neither ours - but both young) are what we have. But Javy isn't blocking that person. And if we dump Javy as a salary dump, and don't replace him with someone who can deliver at least what he can, we can pretty much give up on next year. I'd hate to see Buehrle/Floyd/Danks/Richard/Broadway as the OD rotation with Poreda as plan B...

I agree with all of this. Over the course of 162 games, I really don't give a crap if one of my guys who is otherwise durable and consistent career-wise isn't a "big game pitcher." Cross that bridge later in the season when you come to it.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2008, 11:46 AM
Folks:

Like it or not this is the market for the most precious commodity in baseball.

Everyone, including the White Sox, needs to understand this.

Lip

palehozenychicty
09-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm not sure how you think Javy isn't significantly better than the person who we would replace him with. That's Broadway or Richard.

We don't have a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay/etc. sitting in AA or AAA just waiting. Even when we had Gio and DLS, we STILL didn't have that. If you want to see us trot out Clayton Richard and Lance Broadway as our #4 and #5 next year, then I hope you are willing to stand by that all season. For some reason I don't see it. Javy is a solid middle of the rotation guy. ERA around 4.50, will throw 200 IP, no history of injury, that's important. The first two months of the season, when nobody was hitting, Javy was a star for this team. People have no since forgotten it, but Javy had a 3.43 ERA after May. He had 1 start with over 4 ER in his first 12. He had 1 with over 5 in his first 17. He has struggled lately - but Javy Vazquez is a big part of why we are here today (both positive and negative). There's nobody out there right now who we have that I'd want in the 4th spot over him. And we are going to already need to fill #5.

Sure - we'd all love a Beckett/Lincecum/Halladay to come from the system. Floyd and Danks (neither ours - but both young) are what we have. But Javy isn't blocking that person. And if we dump Javy as a salary dump, and don't replace him with someone who can deliver at least what he can, we can pretty much give up on next year. I'd hate to see Buehrle/Floyd/Danks/Richard/Broadway as the OD rotation with Poreda as plan B...

That why I said, if. Reality states otherwise. Vazquez, for all of his issues, does possess durability and will be .500, which is valuable in a rotation. I just think that people expect more out of him here, and it's not happening. He's perfect to round out a rotation, and that's it. He's been on several teams for a reason. Lastly, management wouldn't just dump him in a salary move.

Look, I know that he's not going anywhere. We don't have anyone down there that projects to be an elite pitching prospect. It's not even clear if Broadway or Richard can be a fifth starter next year. We had that problem a few years back with D. Wright. et al. Then again, who thought that Floyd and Danks would win 28 games this year? Sometimes, you just have to let these guys play and figure it out.

In short, Vazquez is fine as a #4 or #5. I just have an issue with people overvaluing his impact or breaking glass when he disappoints. He is who we thought that he was.

NLaloosh
09-30-2008, 01:10 PM
Folks:

Like it or not this is the market for the most precious commodity in baseball.

Everyone, including the White Sox, needs to understand this.

Lip


What if we add some more home run hitters? Wouldn't that trump good pitching ?

Lip Man 1
09-30-2008, 01:46 PM
NL:

Maybe so but then they couldn't touch pitching just brought up from double A! LOL

LIp