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stevied23
09-29-2008, 09:07 PM
In all seriousness, what a special player. Talk about a guy who just loves playing the game of baseball. He always looks so relaxed and just looks like he's having fun playing baseball with his buddies in a vacant lot.

This may sound corny, but that grand slam got me very emotional. It was a special moment that reminded me of the way I felt throughout the entire '05 season. I hope that that slam is the start of something very good for this team. They have battled through a lot of injuries and questions about the offense and bullpen. No team, in my opinion, deserves to go to the postseason more than these guys. They are just going to have to reach down deep inside and take care of business tomorrow.

Forget all the opportunities that they have had up to this point. It's all coming down to this game, and once we win, we can forget about all the negative things that have happened and focus on the Rays. GO SOX!!!!

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 09:12 PM
It was a great moment for a very solid ball player. Additionally, the ball player in question has likely had about as crazy a 24 month period anyone can have in pro sports. He left his home country and had to adjust to a new culture, which can be hard enough. Given the situation is Cuba, it was likely even harder for him. It's not like he can go back in the off season.

Hard not to be happy for him.

ChiSoxFan7
09-29-2008, 09:14 PM
ALEXEI RAMIREZ you are RIDICULOUS!

JB98
09-29-2008, 09:15 PM
There was a lot of excitement when Ramirez hit that ball. Let's hope that hit is the one that takes all the pressure off.

Big-time clutch hit by Ramirez.

turners56
09-29-2008, 09:21 PM
ALEXEI RAMIREZ you are RIDICULOUS!

He is our Devin Hester.

ode to veeck
09-29-2008, 09:33 PM
In the postgame, Ozzie said he said something like just relax to him as he went to bat with the sacks loaded and Ramirez said something like he was gonna kill it. Like those stones and the quick wrists to back it up. We may be losing Crede but we're picking up a maturing kid who's lights out w/RISP and can play nearly anywhere on the infield

hawkjt
09-29-2008, 09:46 PM
Clearly, Alexei hit the wall the last couple of weeks but he came up big today. And yes, seeing that ball fly deep into the left field bleachers and the accompanying wild gyrations of the bleachers jumping up and down all at once does remind of PK's granny to left in the Series or Pods homer or Tadahito's wells bomb.....nothing like the exhilaration one feels as they watch a homer like that fly away....tonite...I love Alexei and baseball.
Tomorrow...do it again.

SBSoxFan
09-29-2008, 09:48 PM
Rookie of the Year special. :bandance:

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Best thing ever...no joke....

EndemicSox
09-29-2008, 09:49 PM
His bat speed is special, I wish ESPN would show the bat speed radar gun again...I'd wager there are only a few players on AR's level...

Dan Mega
09-29-2008, 09:57 PM
He swings a big and fast bat. Just imagine what this guy could do with a little bit of weight on him? Sheesh.

As much crap as I give KW, what a find.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 09:59 PM
He swings a big and fast bat. Just imagine what this guy could do with a little bit of weight on him? Sheesh.

As much crap as I give KW, what a find.

At this point he's pretty much a slightly worse Alfonso Soriano (when Soriano was 26), Soriano has his flaws... but for the money he's being paid and the production he's given this year I'm sure Williams is pretty freaking happy about it as well.

StepsInSC
09-29-2008, 10:02 PM
He's the grindiest grinder who ever grinded.

Huisj
09-29-2008, 10:04 PM
I've been pretty down on this team lately, feeling like the way they've played, they haven't deserved to keep getting these extra chances to still get into the playoffs. I haven't been able to feel the excitement about this team that I felt during certain moments down the stretch in '05.

That slam by Ramirez definitely started to change that feeling though. I was jumping and yelling and clapping and prancing around my apartment like a lunatic when he hit that.

Frontman
09-29-2008, 10:11 PM
Alexei is a joy to watch play the game. He's so non-ego its just awesome to see a professional ballplayer play with the joy of a kid.

Sure, he can pull a move that we all groan when he tries too hard; but he's been an absolute treasure on the field.

That kid is special. No doubt about it.

And as far as being the Sox's Hester? I respectfully disagree. Alexei is further along in his development than Hester; and I hate to say it, seems smarter than Hester as far as understanding the game.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:12 PM
So special he should be R.O.Y. and not Longoria. Although I think our favorite National Sporting Network will lobby for Evan. Plus, Alexei might get screwed because this is the best year ever for TB.

MeteorsSox4367
09-29-2008, 10:13 PM
I was jumping and yelling and clapping and prancing around my apartment like a lunatic when he hit that.

Yep. I was in my kitchen and I scared the hell out of the dog because I was screaming and dancing around and pounding on the table.

Damn, was that clutch.

I also saw that someone sitting in the scout seats had a Ramirez jersey t-shirt. I gotta say those look pretty cool.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:14 PM
So special he should be R.O.Y. and not Longoria. Although I think our favorite National Sporting Network will lobby for Evan. Plus, Alexei might get screwed because this is the best year ever for TB.

I don't seem to understand how Tampa now is considered part of the north east but what the heck.

Tell me again how he's had a better year than Longoria?

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:17 PM
I don't seem to understand how Tampa now is considered part of the north east but what the heck.

Tell me again how he's had a better year than Longoria?

I think because they jumped on the TB Bandwagon.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:20 PM
I think because they jumped on the TB Bandwagon.

Still even if they have, hasn't Longoria had a better year anyway?

I mean, yeah White Sox fans should celebrate Ramirez... but that doesn't mean he's the best rookie this season. Astro fans have every right to love Berkman, doesn't mean he's better than Pujols.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:31 PM
Still even if they have, hasn't Longoria had a better year anyway?

I mean, yeah White Sox fans should celebrate Ramirez... but that doesn't mean he's the best rookie this season. Astro fans have every right to love Berkman, doesn't mean he's better than Pujols.

Alexei has been on the team since opening day. Longoria joined in May. Longoria got hurt in September and Alexei has battled through the rigors of a MLB season where he's been going through a much shorter Cuban league in the past. The same Cuban league that is the same as rookie ball here. Also, every time you think the afore mentioned has happened, he comes through with a huge hit.

MiamiSpartan
09-29-2008, 10:32 PM
The guy has been clutch all season long. I just love to watch him play, because you can tell he's having a great time out there....
What a talent! I love the fact that he plays in the Sox' pinstripes!:bandance:

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:35 PM
Alexei has been on the team since opening day. Longoria joined in May. Longoria got hurt in September and Alexei has battled through the rigors of a MLB season where he's been going through a much shorter Cuban league in the past. The same Cuban league that is the same as rookie ball here. Also, every time you think the afore mentioned has happened, he comes through with a huge hit.


And Longoria has pretty much outperformed Ramirez in every facet of the game despite being held down in AAA (To limit service time BTW) and getting hurt.

I'd understand the service time argument if it weren't for two factors:

1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water
2: Because of Ramirez riding the bench early in the season and where they bat in the order Longoria actually has more plate appearances than Ramirez.

Solid player, great story, fantastic bargain... not the best rookie in the AL, not even close.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:39 PM
And Longoria has pretty much outperformed Ramirez in every facet of the game despite being held down in AAA (To limit service time BTW) and getting hurt.

I'd understand the service time argument if it weren't for two factors:

1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water
2: Because of Ramirez riding the bench early in the season and where they bat in the order Longoria actually has more plate appearances than Ramirez.

Solid player, great story, fantastic bargain... not the best rookie in the AL, not even close.

Fine, whatever, I don't want to argue. If you want to have love for TB then fine. I'm guessing you had the baseball package and watched every TB game. If the Sox make it to Thursday, are you going to tell me how great TB is and how the Sox should be at home?

stevied23
09-29-2008, 10:39 PM
I for one, don't want to debate who is going to win ROY. I know it's going to be Longoria and he deserves it.

IMO, I think Alexei has a bigger upside. He is very versatile, is scary good defensively, and comes up with huge hits when needed. Four grand slams in his rookie year...need I say more? Some players are lucky to get 4 in their career.

Plus, you take into account that he is going to get more accustomed to pitching as well as overall MLB baseball here in the states.

If the Rays don't win the division I think Ramirez might get the nod for ROY.

SBSoxFan
09-29-2008, 10:42 PM
At this point he's pretty much a slightly worse Alfonso Soriano (when Soriano was 26), Soriano has his flaws... but for the money he's being paid and the production he's given this year I'm sure Williams is pretty freaking happy about it as well.

While that may be arguable offensively, there's not a WARP- or VORP-like stat you can dig up that puts Soriano, at 26 or any other age, anywhere near Alexei defensively.

As an aside, in a similar number of ABs this year, Soriano struck out 103 times, Longoria 122, and Alexei 61.

stevied23
09-29-2008, 10:43 PM
And Longoria has pretty much outperformed Ramirez in every facet of the game despite being held down in AAA (To limit service time BTW) and getting hurt.

I'd understand the service time argument if it weren't for two factors:

1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water
2: Because of Ramirez riding the bench early in the season and where they bat in the order Longoria actually has more plate appearances than Ramirez.

Solid player, great story, fantastic bargain... not the best rookie in the AL, not even close.

Longoria's stats are better. But blowing Ramirez out of the water? That's stretching it.
Ramirez might not be the BEST rookie in the AL but it is close. If it wasn't close the argument wouldn't come up.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:43 PM
Fine, whatever, I don't want to argue. If you want to have love for TB then fine. I'm guessing you had the baseball package and watched every TB game. If the Sox make it to Thursday, are you going to tell me how great TB is and how the Sox should be at home?

No I actually hate Tampa. They've only been around for around a decade and they've already done more things that I've found classless, clueless and down right stupid than any other team save who ever is currently employing Dusty Baker. I hope Tampa gets swept in round one... I don't think they're a great story, hell I don't even think they should have won the East.

What I can do is give credit where credit is due. Longoria has been a better player. Fandom has nothing to do with rational thought. I've always kept my preference in baseball a secret on this board, but I'll tell you I've slammed them and several of their players on this board several times. Analysis should be void of preference.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:45 PM
[quote=Billy Ashley;2064848]1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water

Out of the water?

Longoria: .272 25 85 7SB .343 OBP .963FP and 12 errors
Alexei: Before today... .288 20 73 12 SB .313OBP .981 FP 11 errors.

These don't blow anything out of the water.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:46 PM
no i actually hate tampa. They've only been around for around a decade and they've already done more things that i've found classless, clueless and down right stupid than any other team save who ever is currently employing dusty baker. I hope tampa gets swept in round one... I don't think they're a great story, hell i don't even think they should have won the east.

What i can do is give credit where credit is due. Longoria has been a better player. Fandom has nothing to do with rational thought. I've always kept my preference in baseball a secret on this board, but i'll tell you i've slammed them and several of their players on this board several times. Analysis should be void of preference.

go red sox!

Patrick134
09-29-2008, 10:48 PM
And Longoria has pretty much outperformed Ramirez in every facet of the game despite being held down in AAA (To limit service time BTW) and getting hurt.

I'd understand the service time argument if it weren't for two factors:

1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water
2: Because of Ramirez riding the bench early in the season and where they bat in the order Longoria actually has more plate appearances than Ramirez.

Solid player, great story, fantastic bargain... not the best rookie in the AL, not even close.


They have similar at bat totals, what "blows him out of the water"?


The 6 extra homers ?
Longoria's 122 K's to Alexei's 61?
Longorias mammoth 8 extra rbi's?
Longoria's 1 extra error?



I'd hardly say Alexei is blowing Longoria away, but to suggest the opposite is sheer nonsense.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:50 PM
[quote=Billy Ashley;2064848]1: Longoria's statistics blow Ramirez out of the water

Out of the water?

Longoria: .272 25 85 7SB .343 OBP .963FP and 12 errors
Alexei: Before today... .288 20 73 12 SB .313OBP .981 FP 11 errors.

These don't blow anything out of the water.

Fielding percentage is just about as useful as wins, saves and RBIs. One plays in an offensive haven, while the other plays in a park that favors pitching. Ramirez actually has cost the White Sox more runs while stealing (given that he sucks at it) and while it would be foolish to suggest Longoria's a burner out there, atleast he's not costing outs with his seven steals.

Just looks at the players OPS and OPS+. .874 is a bigger number .770. 130 is significantly better than 101. I'm not making this stuff up.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:50 PM
They have similar at bat totals, what "blows him out of the water"?


The 6 extra homers ?
Longoria's 122 K's to Alexei's 61?
Longorias mammoth 8 extra rbi's?
Longoria's 1 extra error?



I'd hardly say Alexei is blowing Longoria away, but to suggest the opposite is sheer nonsense.

Leave him alone, he's bitter the Rays took the division from the Red Sox.

DaveFeelsRight
09-29-2008, 10:55 PM
that grand slam will go down in sox history

SBSoxFan
09-29-2008, 10:57 PM
[quote=Dub25;2064876]

Fielding percentage is just about as useful as wins, saves and RBIs. One plays in an offensive haven, while the other plays in a park that favors pitching. Ramirez actually has cost the White Sox more runs while stealing (given that he sucks at it) and while it would be foolish to suggest Longoria's a burner out there, atleast he's not costing outs with his seven steals.

Just looks at the players OPS and OPS+. .874 is a bigger number .770. 130 is significantly better than 101. I'm not making this stuff up.

Yep. Bill James made it up for you. :tongue:

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 10:57 PM
OK for those who are bad at reading comprehension:

Longoria is a good fielding third basemen by just about every metric and scout alike. Additionally, he's done roughly 30 % better in terms of OPS when weighted against his home park in relation to Ramirez. Ramirez on the other hand is pretty much seen as a poor fielder by every metric as well as scout. Are both wrong?

How is it that only White Sox fans think Ramirez should win the RoY? Is everyone else a fool? Or is it that Longoria is a pretty darn special player already while Ramirez is merely pretty good?

I guess I'm a bad guy for pointing that out, but wave useless stuff like BA, and FP around as much as you want... Longoria beats Ramirez in every statistic that matters handily.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 10:59 PM
[quote=Billy Ashley;2064888]

Yep. Bill James made it up for you. :tongue:

Not sure how it happened but you meant to qoute Billy Ash.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 11:01 PM
OK for those who are bad at reading comprehension:

Longoria is a good fielding third basemen by just about every metric and scout alike. Additionally, he's done roughly 30 % better in terms of OPS when weighted against his home park in relation to Ramirez. Ramirez on the other hand is pretty much seen as a poor fielder by every metric as well as scout. Are both wrong?

How is it that only White Sox fans think Ramirez should win the RoY? Is everyone else a fool? Or is it that Longoria is a pretty darn special player already while Ramirez is merely pretty good?

I guess I'm a bad guy for pointing that out, but wave useless stuff like BA, and FP around as much as you want... Longoria beats Ramirez in every statistic that matters handily.

Are youy related to him? We all know Evan is good but my God you would have thought I was comparing a crap player to Evan. Evan does not blow away Alexei... oh whatever.

SBSoxFan
09-29-2008, 11:03 PM
[quote=SBSoxFan;2064902]

Not sure how it happened but you meant to qoute Billy Ash.

Crazy. WSI's message board metrics are really going to take a hit for that!

soxfanreggie
09-29-2008, 11:03 PM
Very!

I think that's the only word you need.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 11:13 PM
Are youy related to him? We all know Evan is good but my God you would have thought I was comparing a crap player to Evan. Evan does not blow away Alexei... oh whatever.

Ahh, the "are you related?" argument, followed by the every so convincing "What ever" Move over Cicero, there is a new great debater in town and his name is Dub.

It's not an insult to not look as good as a player with a Warp 3 of 9. That's a borderline superstar. Ramirez is not one of those yet, I sincerely doubt he ever will be either. That doesn't make him a bad player.

Longoria will be much better in the following statistics at years end: OPS, OPS+, Vorp, FRAA, Vorp, Warp 3, RBI, HR (And when you consider the home parks they play in 7 is a massive difference), Plus/minus, RBI, SB%, RC, RC/27, and many fewer outs.

I guess I'm blinded by my irrational hatred of Alexei Ramirez (Who I've been calling a good player with a fantastic story all freaking night) when I state that Longoria has been better in just about every way.

I'm clearly the biased one here.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 11:18 PM
Ahh, the "are you related?" argument, followed by the every so convincing "What ever" Move over Cicero, there is a new great debater in town and his name is Dub.

It's not an insult to not look as good as a player with a Warp 3 of 9. That's a borderline superstar. Ramirez is not one of those yet, I sincerely doubt he ever will be either. That doesn't make him a bad player.

Longoria will be much better in the following statistics at years end: OPS, OPS+, Vorp, FRAA, Vorp, Warp 3, RBI, HR (And when you consider the home parks they play in 7 is a massive difference), Plus/minus, RBI, SB%, RC, RC/27, and many fewer outs.

I guess I'm blinded by my irrational hatred of Alexei Ramirez (Who I've been calling a good player with a fantastic story all freaking night) when I state that Longoria has been better in just about every way.

I'm clearly the biased one here.

Whatever, you're taking all of this wrong way. But hey, Go Red Sox!

stevied23
09-29-2008, 11:18 PM
Ahh, the "are you related?" argument, followed by the every so convincing "What ever" Move over Cicero, there is a new great debater in town and his name is Dub.

It's not an insult to not look as good as a player with a Warp 3 of 9. That's a borderline superstar. Ramirez is not one of those yet, I sincerely doubt he ever will be either. That doesn't make him a bad player.

Longoria will be much better in the following statistics at years end: OPS, OPS+, Vorp, FRAA, Vorp, Warp 3, RBI, HR (And when you consider the home parks they play in 7 is a massive difference), Plus/minus, RBI, SB%, RC, RC/27, and many fewer outs.

I guess I'm blinded by my irrational hatred of Alexei Ramirez (Who I've been calling a good player with a fantastic story all freaking night) when I state that Longoria has been better in just about every way.

I'm clearly the biased one here.

I don't have an issue with many of the things you have stated but how do you arrive at the conclusion that Ramirez is "not even close to being the best rookie in the AL" and your serious doubt that he will ever be a superstar?

Dub25
09-29-2008, 11:20 PM
I don't have an issue with many of the things you have stated but how do you arrive at the conclusion that Ramirez is "not even close to being the best rookie in the AL" and your serious doubt that he will ever be a superstar?

Because "he loves the Red Sox", said the man from Berwyn.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 11:21 PM
Whatever, you're taking all of this wrong way. But hey, Go Red Sox!


I would like to know why you think the Go Red Sox thing applies.

Additionally, given this sites views on political speech I hope my Cicero crack didn't offend anyone. I know that election in 20 B.C. is still a sensitive topic around here.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 11:23 PM
I would like to know why you think the Go Red Sox thing applies.

Additionally, given this sites views on political speech I hope my Cicero crack didn't offend anyone. I know that election in 20 B.C. is still a sensitive topic around here.

On politics, study this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97276

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 11:28 PM
I don't have an issue with many of the things you have stated but how do you arrive at the conclusion that Ramirez is "not even close to being the best rookie in the AL" and your serious doubt that he will ever be a superstar?

I suppose it depends on how one defines close. I think Ramirez is a serous candidate for the second best rookie this season. I could be swayed to the SS in KC, maybe but I still believe my initial belief that Ramirez is number 2 is likely correct.

On the Superstar note, no I don't think Ramirez will ever become one. The deck is stacked against 99% of all players to become that. He could surprise me, wouldn't be the first time but I think given his lack of plate discipline I'd expect him to be a valuable piece of a good team. I mean how many real superstars are there? Pujols, A-Rod, Utley, Santana, I'm talking about elite elite players here. Who on the White Sox qualifies for that? Maybe Quentin? Danks?

What about my alleged beloved Red Sox? I don't see a real certified superstar on that team. Maybe Ortiz if he's healthy. Beckett? I doubt Pedrioa repeats this year to year.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 11:30 PM
On politics, study this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97276


Jeez, I was referencing that. I made a crack about debating Cicero, who as it happens has been dead for 2000 years. I then jokingly apologized for the reference, in that it might offend someone who really cared about Roman political theory... given the dialog tonight... I doubted anyone would be offended.

SpartanSoxFan
09-29-2008, 11:39 PM
He is definetely All-Star caliber, a true 5-tool player. I'm not saying he is a Hall-of-Fame guy necessarily, but he will be among the best 2Bs in the game very soon.

Dub25
09-29-2008, 11:40 PM
Jeez, I was referencing that. I made a crack about debating Cicero, who as it happens has been dead for 2000 years. I then jokingly apologized for the reference, in that it might offend someone who really cared about Roman political theory... given the dialog tonight... I doubted anyone would be offended.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97276

Go Red Sox

Eddo144
09-29-2008, 11:44 PM
If the Rays don't win the division I think Ramirez might get the nod for ROY.
I assume you mean Division Series, since the Rays already won the AL East Division. However, the MVP, Cy Young, and Rookie of the Year voting are done prior to the playoffs, so the outcome of the Division Series will not affect who wins Rookie of the Year.

For those wondering what part of Longoria's year was so much better than Alexei, it's his OBP (.343 for Longoria, .313 for Ramirez). Alexei actually makes out at a higher rate than an average hitter (he makes out 68.7% of the time; the league average is 65.8%).

Alexei's a hell of a player, and does have more upside than Longoria, in my opinion, but he did not have a better year.

Billy Ashley
09-29-2008, 11:44 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97276

Go Red Sox

I hardly think referencing a political philosopher from 2000 years about that maybe like 3 people on this board could accurately describe would be seen as violating behavior codes when "The word could use less of you" is acceptable but as you said before: What ever.

Go Padres.

hawkjt
09-29-2008, 11:46 PM
that grand slam will go down in sox history

For one thing, it was the last homer call by hawk and DJ together.

It set up a playoff game just two days shy of the famous bucky Dent game on 10-2-78... Could OC be Bucky Dent tomorrow?

guillensdisciple
09-30-2008, 12:43 AM
Before the year began I already knew that the White Sox had at least one player in their hopeful 25 man roster that would be a real talent.
My dad and his family had been keeping track of Alexei Ramirez ever since he had begun playing for his city team in "Pinal Del Rio" (the same team as Jose Contreras). Whenever we were down there my family's talk was always about how great of a young player this guy was, many of them knew it was inevitable that he left to play in America because the money he could make would be astronomical.

Apparently, he slipped under the radar, and the White Sox have found their real gem. When I came back to Cuba last winter and told my family that the Sox had picked up Alexei after having an abysmal year they all assured me that whichever team he plays on, if not vastly better because of him, will see very great effort and number outputs out of this player. Of course, I didn't understand their logic at the time. Alexei seemed to small and not strong enough to grind it out in the bigs, but they said his vision in the batters box and control of the bat is what made him who he was as a hitter.

I went into the year with a skeptical optimism, hoping that what my family was saying actually panned out.

From what I have seen it has, not many people have spoked about him and not many people will begin to do so until next year, but man is this kid going to be amazing. He reminds me of Alfonso Soriano in build, but Reggie Jackson (this is an overstatement but I needed to pick a clutch player) in character.

The White Sox have found two all- star caliber players for the future, that could lead this team to success and prosperity for as long as they stay on the team.

GO SOX!!!

DSpivack
09-30-2008, 01:07 AM
In a postgame interview, Rich King interviewd Ramirez in spanish. Didn't know King knew spanish, was kinda impressive.

Nellie_Fox
09-30-2008, 01:14 AM
In a postgame interview, Rich King interviewd Ramirez in spanish. Didn't know King knew spanish, was kinda impressive.Except for the fact that Alexei's answers didn't match the question King said he had asked, and King couldn't understand Alexei and needed the interpreter. I suspect that the Cuban dialect and accent is different, but I have no first-hand knowledge.

GoGoCrede
09-30-2008, 01:26 AM
Except for the fact that Alexei's answers didn't match the question King said he had asked, and King couldn't understand Alexei and needed the interpreter. I suspect that the Cuban dialect and accent is different, but I have no first-hand knowledge.

What bothered me was how King kept cutting off Alexei to explain to the fans what he'd just asked. Oh, well. Viva Alexei!

MISoxfan
09-30-2008, 01:30 AM
How is it that only White Sox fans think Ramirez should win the RoY? Is everyone else a fool? Or is it that Longoria is a pretty darn special player already while Ramirez is merely pretty good?

I guess I'm a bad guy for pointing that out, but wave useless stuff like BA, and FP around as much as you want... Longoria beats Ramirez in every statistic that matters handily.

Hahaha, I don't even think Ramirez deserves the ROY over Longoria. He put up numbers that could win the ROY in some seasons, but was unlucky enough to run up against a a better candidate this year. However this is the absolute worst argument I've ever heard. We're supposed to base our argument on what everyone else thinks? Everyone else who voted Rollins for NL MVP last year and Morneau in 2006. The same everyone else who will likely vote for Howard and Pedroia this year :rolleyes:.

Maybe its the everyone else who voted Longoria over Dye for an All-Star this year. You know the Longoria who had an .871 OPS in the first half vs Dye's .998. Why was it only Sox fans wanted Dye? Surely we must have been wrong then according to your logic! Maybe its because there is more than actual on the field results lending itself to the nationwide Longoria manlove.

I guess I'm a bad guy for pointing out that Dye beat Longoria in basically every single statistical category, worthless or otherwise.

guillensdisciple
09-30-2008, 02:01 AM
Except for the fact that Alexei's answers didn't match the question King said he had asked, and King couldn't understand Alexei and needed the interpreter. I suspect that the Cuban dialect and accent is different, but I have no first-hand knowledge.

Cuban Spanish is a rushed Spanish. It has the same grammatical features as the Spanish taught throughout America but Cuban people rush it and tend to throw a lot of slang in there.

EuroSox35
09-30-2008, 02:36 AM
Reliever brought in with the bases loaded, 1st pitch he sees, SLAM, I can appreciate that :D:

:walnuts
Nice one kid

Adele_H
09-30-2008, 03:59 AM
Alexei? Big fan. I think if TCM doesn't let his early success go to his head (see: Cano, Robinson), he's a perennial All-Star for the next 5-7 years. Could even win the MVP.

That said, Longoria is a clear ROY choice (just as Cliff Lee is a Cy Young choice, Pujols NL MVP, etc.)

I don't need stats to tell me Longoria is a good defensive 3B. His only peer in AL is Beltre (who, admittedly, is hurt by the unofficial edict that Seattle players only play hard every other Thursday during a non-leap year).

Billy Ashley
09-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Hahaha, I don't even think Ramirez deserves the ROY over Longoria. He put up numbers that could win the ROY in some seasons, but was unlucky enough to run up against a a better candidate this year. However this is the absolute worst argument I've ever heard. We're supposed to base our argument on what everyone else thinks? Everyone else who voted Rollins for NL MVP last year and Morneau in 2006. The same everyone else who will likely vote for Howard and Pedroia this year :rolleyes:.

Maybe its the everyone else who voted Longoria over Dye for an All-Star this year. You know the Longoria who had an .871 OPS in the first half vs Dye's .998. Why was it only Sox fans wanted Dye? Surely we must have been wrong then according to your logic! Maybe its because there is more than actual on the field results lending itself to the nationwide Longoria manlove.

I guess I'm a bad guy for pointing out that Dye beat Longoria in basically every single statistical category, worthless or otherwise.

I made that argument only after reason and evidence failed to sway other posters. Of course common understanding doesn't always work. However, just about every fan, analyst (traditional and saber loving), and player outside of this web site think that, given the statistics Longoria is a better pick.

The Jimmy Rollins pick was a load of crap given that he wasn't even the best SS in the NL East last year. However that stupid verdict was rendered be equally stupid sports writers, I would think most fans and analyst would have agreed that the MVP should have gone to someone else last season.

As far as Dye vs Longoria. You're right, Dye should have made it. Sucks it didn't happen.

Frontman
09-30-2008, 08:45 AM
I can see that slam going into the montage next season, win or lose tonight. That was an awesome moment. Hell, I had tears in my eyes it was awesome; and I didn't cry in 2005 until it was completely over!!!

Mohoney
09-30-2008, 08:49 AM
That said, Longoria is a clear ROY choice (just as Cliff Lee is a Cy Young choice, Pujols NL MVP, etc.)

Albert Pujols is not winning the NL MVP. If he does, it's a major stretch.

stevied23
09-30-2008, 08:51 AM
I don't think there are that many people disagreeing with you on who is going to be the AL ROY. What someone really thinks and what someone really wants are two different things entirely.

I think more people are just surprised that you think there is this huge gap between the two. You mention that Longoria is on the brink of superstardom and go on to mention that true superstars are the likes of Pujols, A-Rod, etc. Well if the statistics I'm looking at are right, Longoria isn't approaching superstardom numbers wise. And if he is, Alexei is right behind him. Do I believe that Longoria will be a perennial All Star? Abosolutely. Alexei? Yes and the reason being that there is more room for Alexei to improve than Longoria.

Craig Grebeck
09-30-2008, 08:57 AM
Albert Pujols is not winning the NL MVP. If he does, it's a major stretch.
Seriously. All he did was hit .357/.462/.653. Give me a break.

Eddo144
09-30-2008, 09:18 AM
Albert Pujols is not winning the NL MVP. If he does, it's a major stretch.
Craig Grebeck gave you the numbers, but Pujols has essentially had a slightly-above-average season compared to himself, but a dominating one compared to every other player.

If he doesn't win, it would be a travesty.

Billy Ashley
09-30-2008, 09:34 AM
I don't think there are that many people disagreeing with you on who is going to be the AL ROY. What someone really thinks and what someone really wants are two different things entirely.

I think more people are just surprised that you think there is this huge gap between the two. You mention that Longoria is on the brink of superstardom and go on to mention that true superstars are the likes of Pujols, A-Rod, etc. Well if the statistics I'm looking at are right, Longoria isn't approaching superstardom numbers wise. And if he is, Alexei is right behind him. Do I believe that Longoria will be a perennial All Star? Abosolutely. Alexei? Yes and the reason being that there is more room for Alexei to improve than Longoria.


How many 22 year olds post OPS+ of 130? How many of those do it at a difficult defensive position while also playing excellent defense? I understand that the difference doesn't look so great when one only looks at the triple crown counting statistics. However in terms of OPS, OPS+, Vorp and Warp we see a massive difference. This is in large part due to Ramirez's counting statistics being somewhat artificially enhanced by where he plays (and this of course is no fault of his own, just a reality). What has made John Danks so impressive to me this season (and Buerhle over the past 6 years) is that he's put up very good numbers while playing half his games in a pitchers nightmare. I was wrong about Danks (I thought he was an excellent prospect and much better than McCarthy) in that I feared a pitcher with fly ball tenancies such as him would not be able to succeed in such a ball park.

Ramirez has an OPS+ of 101. This is very good for a second basemen. He still lags well behind Kinsler, Roberts, and Pedrioa at second. Given his age we could very well see him leap frog Roberts, but then he's merely "only" the third best offensive player at a position that's fairly weak. Add to the fact that his defense is suspect and we see what Ramirez really is: A very valuable middle infielder who should be a staple of the White Sox infield for the next several seasons. Now can we give him a break for all the adjustments he's had to make this season both professionally and culturally? I'd argue yes. However it seems unlikely with adjustments he's going to turn into Kinsler or Utley (and really, do the white sox need that? No, he's plenty good enough).

Longoria on the other hand has posted the second best OPS+ of any rookie in recent memory (Braun's 2007 was a truly freakish event) while also playing very good defense. According to WARP 3 he's already 9 wins over replacement player and he's only 22. He's already posted a VORP in the 30s and was seen by just about every reputable minor league analyst as being no worse than the third best prospect in all of baseball coming into this season (Where he ranked 1-3 depends entirely on who you'd rather have of Bruce, Joba or Longoria, I think at this point it's a slam dunk for Longoria).

In summation, it's not that Ramirez isn't good. If he was a free agent today he'd likely command a multi year contract worth tens of millions. It is that Longoria is already close to the level with guys like David Wright.

asindc
09-30-2008, 10:02 AM
How many 22 year olds post OPS+ of 130? How many of those do it at a difficult defensive position while also playing excellent defense? I understand that the difference doesn't look so great when one only looks at the triple crown counting statistics. However in terms of OPS, OPS+, Vorp and Warp we see a massive difference. This is in large part due to Ramirez's counting statistics being somewhat artificially enhanced by where he plays (and this of course is no fault of his own, just a reality). What has made John Danks so impressive to me this season (and Buerhle over the past 6 years) is that he's put up very good numbers while playing half his games in a pitchers nightmare. I was wrong about Danks (I thought he was an excellent prospect and much better than McCarthy) in that I feared a pitcher with fly ball tenancies such as him would not be able to succeed in such a ball park.

Ramirez has an OPS+ of 101. This is very good for a second basemen. He still lags well behind Kinsler, Roberts, and Pedrioa at second. Given his age we could very well see him leap frog Roberts, but then he's merely "only" the third best offensive player at a position that's fairly weak. Add to the fact that his defense is suspect and we see what Ramirez really is: A very valuable middle infielder who should be a staple of the White Sox infield for the next several seasons. Now can we give him a break for all the adjustments he's had to make this season both professionally and culturally? I'd argue yes. However it seems unlikely with adjustments he's going to turn into Kinsler or Utley (and really, do the white sox need that? No, he's plenty good enough).

Longoria on the other hand has posted the second best OPS+ of any rookie in recent memory (Braun's 2007 was a truly freakish event) while also playing very good defense. According to WARP 3 he's already 9 wins over replacement player and he's only 22. He's already posted a VORP in the 30s and was seen by just about every reputable minor league analyst as being no worse than the third best prospect in all of baseball coming into this season (Where he ranked 1-3 depends entirely on who you'd rather have of Bruce, Joba or Longoria, I think at this point it's a slam dunk for Longoria).

In summation, it's not that Ramirez isn't good. If he was a free agent today he'd likely command a multi year contract worth tens of millions. It is that Longoria is already close to the level with guys like David Wright.

I think you are correct in that a lot of posters here are looking through White Sox-colored glasses in assessing TCM vs. Longoria. While I think it is closer than you think, I would not hesitate to vote for Longoria, and I say this as a lifelong Sox fan.

However, since you are an admitted "propeller head" when it comes to stats, let me just say that the arguments you present are one of the reasons I don't pay that much attention to the numbers. If you just watch the two guys play, I don't know if that many keen observers would put that much distance between the two if they did not know the numbers involved.

Contrast that with say, Thome and Ortiz (at least pre-2008). Yes Thome might hit more homers and draw more walks, but even White Sox fans would have to admit that they would prefer Ortiz over Thome at this point. My point here is that without even looking at the numbers, Ortiz is the better offensive player. When it comes to comparing TCM with Longoria, however, only when you look at the numbers can you discern major differences in the level of play.

BTW, I think Alexei's defense is better than you are giving him credit for.

stevied23
09-30-2008, 10:29 AM
Please reference this

http://www.thedailytube.com/video/11605/wait-did-alexei-ramirez-just-do-that

MISoxfan
09-30-2008, 03:01 PM
I think you are correct in that a lot of posters here are looking through White Sox-colored glasses in assessing TCM vs. Longoria. While I think it is closer than you think, I would not hesitate to vote for Longoria, and I say this as a lifelong Sox fan.

However, since you are an admitted "propeller head" when it comes to stats, let me just say that the arguments you present are one of the reasons I don't pay that much attention to the numbers. If you just watch the two guys play, I don't know if that many keen observers would put that much distance between the two if they did not know the numbers involved.

Contrast that with say, Thome and Ortiz (at least pre-2008). Yes Thome might hit more homers and draw more walks, but even White Sox fans would have to admit that they would prefer Ortiz over Thome at this point. My point here is that without even looking at the numbers, Ortiz is the better offensive player. When it comes to comparing TCM with Longoria, however, only when you look at the numbers can you discern major differences in the level of play.

BTW, I think Alexei's defense is better than you are giving him credit for.

David Ortiz isn't even in the same league as Jim Thome. Especially not now with Manny gone. Manny was the real offensive force on that tandem.

hi im skot
09-30-2008, 03:06 PM
go red sox!

Is this really the best you can do?

Weak.

voodoochile
09-30-2008, 03:14 PM
I would like to know why you think the Go Red Sox thing applies.

Additionally, given this sites views on political speech I hope my Cicero crack didn't offend anyone. I know that election in 20 B.C. is still a sensitive topic around here.

Yo, Billy... not today... today is a day for Sox fans to rejoice and revel in an amazing moment in our team's history. AR is a huge part of why it is such a special moment. You want to start a thread on the merits of AL ROY contenders, take it to TB.

Let us have our moment. Anything that takes away from that to focus on your "rational arguments" is trolling, IMO because it deflects the attention from the moment on to you.

Please, a little respect for Sox fans and our moment and simply not today...

voodoochile
09-30-2008, 03:18 PM
Damn... forgot to answer...

Here's a little perspective...

The all time GS record is held by a guy named Gehrig. It's 23.

AR is quite simply one of the biggest discoveries ever for a Sox GM. He's got blazing speed, sick range, power, can hit for average and doesn't strike out a lot. Once he learns to read pitches better and gets a bit of SB/LO training, the sky is the limit.

Oh and his ability to rise to the big moment is already as good as anyone on this team. Hope the veterans can get some inspiration from this kid and take it to the twinkies from the word go tonight.

:hawk
"Don't tell me what you hit..."

Adele_H
09-30-2008, 03:45 PM
Contrast that with say, Thome and Ortiz (at least pre-2008). Yes Thome might hit more homers and draw more walks, but even White Sox fans would have to admit that they would prefer Ortiz over Thome at this point. My point here is that without even looking at the numbers, Ortiz is the better offensive player. When it comes to comparing TCM with Longoria, however, only when you look at the numbers can you discern major differences in the level of play.

BTW, I think Alexei's defense is better than you are giving him credit for.

There is no comparison between Ortiz and Thome the last 5 years. Both are powerful and selective, but Ortiz was simply a better all-around (that includes ability to hit for average, perform in the "clutch", consistently hit good pitchers, etc) hitter. Ortiz hasn't been quite the same since he broke his wrist, though.

Yes, Alexei's is at least average with the glove - and before the ASB he well-above average. 2B position is new to him, so his technique/footwork is not all there yet. He makes some mistakes where his head doesn't appear to be in the game. Failure to pay attention to the runner at 2B is my personal peeve. But Alexei also makes enough spectacular plays that someone like Dustin Pedroia can only dream to cancel out the mistakes.

Defensive 'Win Shares' AND Zone Rating can kiss my ass, in other words.

jabrch
09-30-2008, 03:51 PM
Please don't feed the trolls.

:dtroll:

EndemicSox
09-30-2008, 06:59 PM
I don't care what the defensive metrics say about Ramirez in the field, he makes all the plays he should make and then some. When it comes to defense, no stat beats the eye test, and Alexei is damn fine infielder.

Billy Ashley
09-30-2008, 07:51 PM
Yo, Billy... not today... today is a day for Sox fans to rejoice and revel in an amazing moment in our team's history. AR is a huge part of why it is such a special moment. You want to start a thread on the merits of AL ROY contenders, take it to TB.

Let us have our moment. Anything that takes away from that to focus on your "rational arguments" is trolling, IMO because it deflects the attention from the moment on to you.

Please, a little respect for Sox fans and our moment and simply not today...

First of all, I'm not trolling. I've even stated that I hope the CWS win today. They're a much better team than the Twins. I've also stated time and time again that Ramirez is a good player. I've just also stated that Longoria happens to be better. If that's trolling, grow some thicker skin.

I mean hell, someone told me the world would be better off with out me for just disagreeing with them.

stevied23
10-01-2008, 04:41 PM
The final thing I will say in this thread is that I will take Alexei and his 30 points lower OPS any day of the week. Thank you very much.

slavko
10-01-2008, 06:27 PM
Saw him with his shirt off in the postgame celebration and started thinking Darfur. He's bound to put on some weight, but I hope it helps his game, not that it needs any help.

Mohoney
10-02-2008, 02:18 AM
Seriously. All he did was hit .357/.462/.653. Give me a break.

And finished in what, 4th place?

Ryan Howard led the majors in homers and RBIs, and locked up that division championship for the Phillies with very little support. I would vote for Howard way before I would vote for Pujols.

EuroSox35
10-02-2008, 03:38 AM
Longaria will win ROTY. Alexei will have the better DS/postseason

Craig Grebeck
10-02-2008, 07:15 AM
And finished in what, 4th place?

Ryan Howard led the majors in homers and RBIs, and locked up that division championship for the Phillies with very little support. I would vote for Howard way before I would vote for Pujols.
Very little support? :scratch:

He has Rollins (last year's MVP, bit of a down year but still solid for a SS), Werth (awesome year), Utley, Burrell, and Victorino. That's one of the most talented offenses in baseball.

Billy Ashley
10-02-2008, 08:40 AM
Longaria will win ROTY. Alexei will have the better DS/postseason

I doubt any of you would trade a RoY for 3 wins this week.

Billy Ashley
10-02-2008, 08:44 AM
Very little support? :scratch:

He has Rollins (last year's MVP, bit of a down year but still solid for a SS), Werth (awesome year), Utley, Burrell, and Victorino. That's one of the most talented offenses in baseball.

Never mind that he was worse than Ultey, Burrell, Victorino and Lidge this season.

Ryan Howard is a good player. He had an average year this season though. As usual he hit a ton of home runs and drove in a bunch of runs. These things are expected from him given that 1) he plays in a band box and 2) he has a bunch of good hitters hitting in front of him,

However he is god awful on the field, essentially worthless on the base paths and unable (this season) to get on base at a clip high enough to warrant and serious consideration for the MVP over Pujols it will be the greatest robbery since the 1940s.

Craig Grebeck
10-02-2008, 09:19 AM
Never mind that he was worse than Ultey, Burrell, Victorino and Lidge this season.

Ryan Howard is a good player. He had an average year this season though. As usual he hit a ton of home runs and drove in a bunch of runs. These things are expected from him given that 1) he plays in a band box and 2) he has a bunch of good hitters hitting in front of him,

However he is god awful on the field, essentially worthless on the base paths and unable (this season) to get on base at a clip high enough to warrant and serious consideration for the MVP over Pujols it will be the greatest robbery since the 1940s.
List of better MVP candidates in NL:
Berkman
Pujols
H. Ramirez
Wright
Beltran
A. Ramirez
Utley
Holliday
Braun
Fielder
A. Gonzalez
Ludwick
McLouth
Ethier

Billy Ashley
10-02-2008, 09:25 AM
List of better MVP candidates in NL:
Berkman
Pujols
H. Ramirez
Wright
Beltran
A. Ramirez
Utley
Holliday
Braun
Fielder
A. Gonzalez
Ludwick
McLouth
Ethier


Agreed. Howard was essentially Carlos Delgado this season (Pretty good offense, nothing else). Delgado doesn't deserve an MVP either. The fact that Howard will likely get some first place votes and Ultey will gain none would amaze me if it weren't for the contempt I already hold against those punching the ballots.

StepsInSC
10-02-2008, 09:55 AM
Ryan Howard led the majors in homers and RBIs, and locked up that division championship for the Phillies with very little support. I would vote for Howard way before I would vote for Pujols.

You're nuts. Howard is a glorified platoon player coming off the worst year of his career. Anyone who votes for him should be stripped of their right to vote. He hits HRs, yes, in a park that Eddie Gaedel could hit a HR in. That's about it. He hit .251. Got on base at a clip of a measly .339 (both a full tenth of a point less than Pujols!). And when he plays against lefties he does nothing but hurt his team (.224 BA!! .294 OBP!!) To me MVP doesn't mean someone who should be platooned.

Frontman
10-02-2008, 11:01 AM
I doubt any of you would trade a RoY for 3 wins this week.

Agreed. Let Longoria have his RoY trophy, let us have baseball next weekend.

Mohoney
10-02-2008, 12:24 PM
Very little support? :scratch:

He has Rollins (last year's MVP, bit of a down year but still solid for a SS), Werth (awesome year), Utley, Burrell, and Victorino. That's one of the most talented offenses in baseball.

Out of those 5 guys, only Victorino and Rollins had really good Septembers. Howard had a monster September under the pressure of a close division race. He is the biggest reason that the Phillies were able to hold off the Mets.

Pujols and the Cardinals were done in August. He had a nice season, but that team accomplished practically nothing.

Adele_H
10-02-2008, 12:34 PM
You're nuts. Howard is a glorified platoon player coming off the worst year of his career..

Ok, people who want Howard to win the MVP over Pujols this year may be a bit misguided. But calling Howard a glorified bench player is equally wrong, if not more so.

For one, do you not understand what kind of difference just having a monster, even one having a "down year", like that batting behind you has on quality of pitches for Utley? I know, I know - line-up protection is a myth, the pitchers are emotionless robots without any tactical acumen, blablablaba :rolleyes:

Secondly, do you know how HARD it is to drive in 150-160 runs? Especially in the NL? Ask Paul Konerkos, Jim Thomes, Jermaine Dyes of this world who even in their bestest years couldn't dream of numbers like that.

Yes, this year Howard's weakness has been that when the bases are EMPTY he's a fairly crappy hitter because he chases a TON of bad pitches trying to do too much; the pitchers don't have an incentive to give in to him. That's a flaw that needs to be corrected going forward. But I'll gladly take his 309 BA and 1044 OPS w. Runners On in the meantime. In a down year.

And the best part? Unlike guys like Pujols, Chipper Jones or even Manny who still draw some suspicions, Howard is most likely one of the few truly "clean" sluggers in the game.

In short: I really hope Philly trades that "glorified platoon player" to the Sox in the off-season. :D:

ron_j_galt
10-02-2008, 12:56 PM
Ryan Howard's season = Albert Pujols's season with 60 additional PA, 34 fewer hits, 6 fewer non-intentional walks, 11 fewer total bases, and 3 fewer extra base hits. The difference in slugging % between Pujols and #2 (Ludwick) is greater than the difference between #2 and #10 (Utley). Ryan Howard had an 814 OPS playing a poor first base before September (when he hit only slightly better than Pujols did for the entire season), which is one of the reasons the Phillies had to catch the Mets in the first place.

Craig Grebeck
10-02-2008, 01:26 PM
Ok, people who want Howard to win the MVP over Pujols this year may be a bit misguided. But calling Howard a glorified bench player is equally wrong, if not more so.

For one, do you not understand what kind of difference just having a monster, even one having a "down year", like that batting behind you has on quality of pitches for Utley? I know, I know - line-up protection is a myth, the pitchers are emotionless robots without any tactical acumen, blablablaba :rolleyes:

Secondly, do you know how HARD it is to drive in 150-160 runs? Especially in the NL? Ask Paul Konerkos, Jim Thomes, Jermaine Dyes of this world who even in their bestest years couldn't dream of numbers like that.

Yes, this year Howard's weakness has been that when the bases are EMPTY he's a fairly crappy hitter because he chases a TON of bad pitches trying to do too much; the pitchers don't have an incentive to give in to him. That's a flaw that needs to be corrected going forward. But I'll gladly take his 309 BA and 1044 OPS w. Runners On in the meantime. In a down year.

And the best part? Unlike guys like Pujols, Chipper Jones or even Manny who still draw some suspicions, Howard is most likely one of the few truly "clean" sluggers in the game.

In short: I really hope Philly trades that "glorified platoon player" to the Sox in the off-season. :D:
Link? Who suspects those guys?

He had the 49th best OBP in the NL, as well as the 14th best OPS in the NL. That's pretty pedestrian for a first baseman.

Craig Grebeck
10-02-2008, 01:27 PM
Out of those 5 guys, only Victorino and Rollins had really good Septembers. Howard had a monster September under the pressure of a close division race. He is the biggest reason that the Phillies were able to hold off the Mets.

Pujols and the Cardinals were done in August. He had a nice season, but that team accomplished practically nothing.
What does that matter? Just cause Pujols' team had a patchwork pitching staff and lineup doesn't mean he didn't contribute more to his team than Howard.

StepsInSC
10-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Ok, people who want Howard to win the MVP over Pujols this year may be a bit misguided. But calling Howard a glorified bench player is equally wrong, if not more so.

I didn't say "bench" player. I said "platoon." Big difference. I think there is a reasonable argument for benching him against lefties.

soxinem1
10-02-2008, 03:55 PM
Ask me again after next season.