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chisoxmike
09-27-2008, 10:08 PM
Unreal. Absolutely unreal.

It seems whatever the Sox do, it's not enough. I guess a **** bullpen will do that to you.



Win tomorrow.

Jurr
09-27-2008, 10:10 PM
If your bullpen sucks, it doesn't matter how many runs the offense scores.
If your offense sucks, it doesn't matter how "on" your starters are.
If your starters suck, none of it matters.

This whole team sucks. Period. It's okay....we've been down this road before, and at some point a world series championship squirted out of that mess.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:11 PM
Aren't we just so pleased that when it was clear the Sox needed bullpen help, KW sent a reliever and a prospect to acquire a DH to play CF?

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:12 PM
:popcorn: for the postgame show

Jurr
09-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Aren't we just so pleased that when it was clear the Sox needed bullpen help, KW sent a reliever and a prospect to acquire a DH to play CF?
As the English would say...curious, indeed.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Aren't we just so pleased that when it was clear the Sox needed bullpen help, KW sent a reliever and a prospect to acquire a DH to play CF?


Wow, you just won't let that one go huh?

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Aren't we just so pleased that when it was clear the Sox needed bullpen help, KW sent a reliever and a prospect to acquire a DH to play CF?
Massett wasn't Chicago tough.

Big Game Javy comes through again, I sure hope he enjoys his house in Puerto Rico in October...god ****ing dammit. We're just pissing this away.

Jurr
09-27-2008, 10:12 PM
By the way, it's nice to see the who's who of old schoolers on tonight. Very pleasureable gameday thread.

Martinigirl
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
Even if by some miracle we get in the playoffs, we can't pitch anymore. This is a nightmare.

And a quick question, why didn't Bobby start the ninth? We shouldn't be playing for extra innings, we needed to hold them down and keep the momentum for our half of the ninth.

kingpin_rcs
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
How can KW watch this and not be in total disgust with the team AND himself.

Whitesoxfan23
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
If your favorite team sucks and you know it clap your hands. Clap clap.

GoGoCrede
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
5 losses in a row, and we're still in it. Royals - Sox MVP

HangWiffum
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
What a disappointing ****ing season. It's fitting that it ends this way.

Brian26
09-27-2008, 10:13 PM
Cleveland's magic number is down to 37.

:bandance:

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:14 PM
By the way, it's nice to see the who's who of old schoolers on tonight. Very pleasureable gameday thread.


I tip my hat out to the clowns on that thread. That was some of the funniest **** I have read. Great Therapy for being a fan of a spineless team.

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Chumbawumba time.


:bandance:

soltrain21
09-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Easily my least favorite Sox team of all time. I'd take Luis Terrero, Tony Phillips and Danny Wright over this crap.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:15 PM
How can KW watch this and not be in total disgust with the team AND himself.

Just wait until he faces the fans at that Friday SoxFest 2009 seminar.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:15 PM
Wow, you just won't let that one go huh?
We coulda used Massett these past couple of weeks a hell of a lot more than we could use Griffey...by the way, IF we make the playoffs, I don't want Javy to so much as THINK about starting.

Brian26
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
By the way, it's nice to see the who's who of old schoolers on tonight. Very pleasureable gameday thread.

Yeah, that was fun. Some great one-liners tonight.

HangWiffum
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
What a way to end the season. The Sox have their longest losing streak of 2008.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
How can KW watch this and not be in total disgust with the team AND himself.

I'm sure he's been taken enough notes to make our tax code look minimal.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
Just wait until he faces the fans at that Friday SoxFest 2009 seminar.


I predict a new manager and coaching staff will be standing besides him....so all will be fine with Sox fans.

You can't continue to pump $120 million of talent and not get results.

WhiteSoxOnly
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
what a ****ing pile of steaming ****,and even worse,they have a chance
to shove it up our asses again tomorrow.Let's hurry up and get in line. :angry:

cleanwsox
09-27-2008, 10:16 PM
Just wait until he faces the fans at that Friday SoxFest 2009 seminar.

They might as well cancel that too.... to protect the players, obviously.

Jurr
09-27-2008, 10:17 PM
I tip my hat out to the clowns on that thread. That was some of the funniest **** I have read. Great Therapy for being a fan of a spineless team.
We're veterans of posting through craptastic corpseball. Boy, I remember the post game threads after Koch blew that one game against Tampa. Ewwwww.........

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:17 PM
We coulda used Massett these past couple of weeks a hell of a lot more than we could use Griffey...by the way, IF we make the playoffs, I don't want Javy to so much as THINK about starting.

Yeah, at least Massett could generate a ground ball every now and then.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:18 PM
I predict a new manager and coaching staff will be standing besides him....so all will be fine with Sox fans.

You can't continue to pump $120 million of talent and not get results.
When nobody in your bullpen can get anybody out and your alleged number two starter can't get anybody out after the fourth, you could have John McGraw manage this team and he would get the same results.

I'm not a fan of Kenny, but this falls on the players much more than Ozzie or Kenny. Ozzie could throw anybody out there and they just don't get the job done.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:18 PM
I predict a new manager and coaching staff will be standing besides him....so all will be fine with Sox fans.

You can't continue to pump $120 million of talent and not get results.

Ozzie should be fired. Every year he's been manager, the Sox have done worse in the second half than the first. Yes, he won the World Series. But who here thinks he could win another one?

I don't.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:18 PM
I predict a new manager and coaching staff will be standing besides him....so all will be fine with Sox fans.

You can't continue to pump $120 million of talent and not get results.

So you're betting that Ozzie & Co. get bounced?

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:19 PM
We coulda used Massett these past couple of weeks a hell of a lot more than we could use Griffey...by the way, IF we make the playoffs, I don't want Javy to so much as THINK about starting.


So Danks or Javy .... they were both bad here at crunch time?

I highly doubt you want Richard as your #3 in that series.

Javy tried going twice on 3 days rest, give him credit. Meanwhile, Danks crapped the bed on full rest.

Woofer
09-27-2008, 10:19 PM
Even if by some miracle we get in the playoffs, we can't pitch anymore. This is a nightmare.

And a quick question, why didn't Bobby start the ninth? We shouldn't be playing for extra innings, we needed to hold them down and keep the momentum for our half of the ninth.
I think that tonight pretty much proves that we have no business being in the playoffs, and it seems the Sox have resigned themselves to that fate.

kevingrt
09-27-2008, 10:20 PM
I think that tonight pretty much proves that we have no business being in the playoffs, and it seems the Sox have resigned themselves to that fate.

It certainly seems that way.

MushMouth
09-27-2008, 10:20 PM
We should let Swisher pitch tomorrow

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:20 PM
When nobody in your bullpen can get anybody out and your alleged number two starter can't get anybody out after the fourth, you could have John McGraw manage this team and he would get the same results.

I'm not a fan of Kenny, but this falls on the players much more than Ozzie or Kenny. Ozzie could throw anybody out there and they just don't get the job done.

KW gets credit for Quentin and Ramirez.

He gets scorn for Griffey, Swisher and Cabrera.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:21 PM
But who here thinks he could win another one?

I don't.

I don't either but it will have absolutely nothing to do with Ozzie.

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 10:21 PM
God, I hope the Royals can sneak another win in the Metrodump.

We need to dominate the non Cliff Lee pitcher tomarrow.

Woofer
09-27-2008, 10:21 PM
It totally fries me that if they would have one 1 game out of the last 5, we would be in first right now.

Konerkoholic
09-27-2008, 10:22 PM
So Danks or Javy .... they were both bad here at crunch time?

I highly doubt you want Richard as your #3 in that series.

Javy tried going twice on 3 days rest, give him credit. Meanwhile, Danks crapped the bed on full rest.

Dank's awful start may be an anomaly, whereas we KNOW Vazquez never shows up in big games.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:22 PM
If this were New York or Boston, Ozzie would probably get fired after something like this. But our organization will not fire him.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:22 PM
I don't either but it will have absolutely nothing to do with Ozzie.

Give him the roster of any playoff team this year. Would he win a World Series with any of those teams?

I don't think so.

WhiteSoxOnly
09-27-2008, 10:23 PM
We coulda used Massett these past couple of weeks a hell of a lot more than we could use Griffey...by the way, IF we make the playoffs, I don't want Javy to so much as THINK about starting.

Nick Massett stunk like yesterday's underwear.He would have have the trots in his diapers like the whole damn team.No loss at all.And i'm sure as hell no
Griffey guy either...3-4 years ago he would have helped when KW first went after him but forget it now.

GoGoCrede
09-27-2008, 10:23 PM
To quote Angela from the Office:
I don't want to blame anyone in particular; I think everyone's to blame.

Woofer
09-27-2008, 10:23 PM
We should let Swisher pitch tomorrow
I wonder if he would look to the sky before every pitch.

ilsox7
09-27-2008, 10:23 PM
That ****ing sucked.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:23 PM
So Danks or Javy .... they were both bad here at crunch time?

I highly doubt you want Richard as your #3 in that series.

Javy tried going twice on 3 days rest, give him credit. Meanwhile, Danks crapped the bed on full rest.
Danks is a ****ing kid who has never been through something like this before, I'd take my chances with him - Javy has shown one thing throughout his career: when the pressure is on, he wilts. He either doesn't have the brains or the balls to be a good pitcher, Richard at least had a great start in a pressure filled situation in New York, he also looked OK today. I'd take my chances with him.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:24 PM
So you're betting that Ozzie & Co. get bounced?


I am very close to putting my house on it:

1. This collapse
2. Ozzie and Kenny no longer eat from the same plate, there is lost love there.
3. Clubhouse meltdown all year with all the crap that has happed from the blowup dolls, OC, Swisher, etc. And this is not the first time an Ozzie led clubhouse has emberassed itself in public.
4. $120 million with no results.

Konerkoholic
09-27-2008, 10:24 PM
God, I hope the Royals can sneak another win in the Metrodump.

We need to dominate the non Cliff Lee pitcher tomarrow.

Well, whatever starter is out there will certainly resemble Cliff Lee.

kruzer31
09-27-2008, 10:24 PM
Well, we are due for a win. Mark beats CLE tomorrow, we crush Freddy on Monday then we beat MIN in our park to take on the Rays in game 1 in TB. Then, anything can happen.


J

SOXBOY
09-27-2008, 10:24 PM
We all knew this wasn't going to be easy for the Sox. I don't like how it was turned out so far but they still have a chance.

roylestillman
09-27-2008, 10:24 PM
Sox are 9-15 for September and we lost 1 game in the standings since September 1st. Just frustrating.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
If this were New York or Boston, Ozzie would probably get fired after something like this. But our organization will not fire him.

Nope. The Yankees stuck with Torre for quite some time.

Brian26
09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Dank's awful start may be an anomaly, whereas we KNOW Vazquez never shows up in big games.

Who is this John Dank you speaketh of?

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Danks is a ****ing kid who has never been through something like this before, I'd take my chances with him - Javy has shown one thing throughout his career: when the pressure is on, he wilts. He either doesn't have the brains or the balls to be a good pitcher, Richard at least had a great start in a pressure filled situation in New York, he also looked OK today. I'd take my chances with him.

I will agree about Richard.

Danks has become the biggest liability for what we have in crappy bullpen. He can't go 6+, we are in trouble.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:26 PM
I became a Sox fan growing up in the early 90s. 1996-1999 I could take, those were down years and dissapointing, but it happens. From 2000 on, the team was competitive and I was pretty content every year. Last season was dissapointing, but a down year happens every now and then.

This year is too much. I don't know how to handle it.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:26 PM
Nope. The Yankees stuck with Torre for quite some time.

But the Yankees made the postseason each of Torre's years in New York.

Konerkoholic
09-27-2008, 10:27 PM
Who is this John Dank you speaketh of?

He was the bad pitcher on the mound last night who looked a little bit like John Danks.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:27 PM
Who is this John Dank you speaketh of?

I don't about Dank, but this team now is pretty rank. I wish I could say playoffs! and take it to the bank, but postseason is on the horizon, only for it to be yanked. I will go down with this ship, even if it does sank.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:27 PM
Give him the roster of any playoff team this year. Would he win a World Series with any of those teams?

I don't think so.
He might not win a world series, but I think he'd make the playoffs. I have trust in ozzie, but when you don't have the players, it's hard to look good...truth be told, I'm not so sure Kenny is to blame for this mess either, after Bobby went down the bullpen which looked so good earlier just fell apart.

LongLiveFisk
09-27-2008, 10:28 PM
It totally fries me that if they would have one 1 game out of the last 5, we would be in first right now.

Exactly. I don't recall another scenario in my life (and if it exists, I'm sure someone here will point it out) where it was THERE FOR THE TAKING and these guys just will NOT take it. It's frustrating as hell to watch this. :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:28 PM
Nope. The Yankees stuck with Torre for quite some time.

The Yankees kept making the playoffs with Torre at the helm. Torre won four World Series before he lost one. And then he made another one. And then he kept making the playoffs.

Ozzie has had one playoff appearance. Yes, he won it all, but his first place teams choked it away in 2004 and 2006. He's about to choke for the third time.

WhiteSoxOnly
09-27-2008, 10:28 PM
Well, we are due for a win. Mark beats CLE tomorrow, we crush Freddy on Monday then we beat MIN in our park to take on the Rays in game 1 in TB. Then, anything can happen.


J

God love ya Kruzer...please share what you're having.I wish i could
still feel that way but after these last 5 games...

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:29 PM
Nope. The Yankees stuck with Torre for quite some time.

This is the first time the Yankees do not play post season in like 10 years.

What are you talking about? :scratch:

manders_01
09-27-2008, 10:29 PM
If this were New York or Boston, Ozzie would probably get fired after something like this. But our organization will not fire him.

Yeah, that firing of Torre didn't work out so well for Yanks though. Manny's joining of the team was huge, don't get me wrong, but the Dodgers were in that race for quite some time.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:30 PM
I am very close to putting my house on it:

1. This collapse
2. Ozzie and Kenny no longer eat from the same plate, there is lost love there.
3. Clubhouse meltdown all year with all the crap that has happed from the blowup dolls, OC, Swisher, etc. And this is not the first time an Ozzie led clubhouse has emberassed itself in public.
4. $120 million with no results.
Neither Kenny or Ozzie will get fired, you can put your house on that...IF I had to choose which one should be gone, it'd be Kenny. In a heartbeat.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:30 PM
No serious head rolls will occur after this season, except maybe Greg Waker's, but if we fail to make the playoffs in 2009 there should be a complete housecleaning.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:30 PM
They Yankees kept making the playoffs with Torre at the helm. Torre won four World Series before he lost one. And then he made another one. And then he kept making the playoffs.

Ozzie has had one playoff appearance. Yes, he won it all, but his first place teams choked it away in 2004 and 2006. He's about to choke for the third time.

2004 I'll chalk up to injuries [Maggs, Big Frank], 2003 I'd say we blew it. At least that season, however, we whimpered down the stretch in September, we blew it in Minnesota and died quietly the rest of the way. Now, we're blowing apart at the end.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:31 PM
Neither Kenny or Ozzie will get fired, you can put your house on that...IF I had to choose which one should be gone, it'd be Kenny. In a heartbeat.

I'd keep Kenny and send Ozzie packing. A team that seems to lack focus and determination, that isn't trying it's hardest when the division is there for the taking down the stretch in September, should be on the manager.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:32 PM
Neither Kenny or Ozzie will get fired, you can put your house on that...IF I had to choose which one should be gone, it'd be Kenny. In a heartbeat.


Kenny is JR's boy.

Ozzie is on the outside from the two.

We will see.

GoGoCrede
09-27-2008, 10:32 PM
After Ozzie's rant, we went on an eight game winning streak. Just think, if Ozzie - Eh. I can't do it.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:33 PM
But the Yankees made the postseason each of Torre's years in New York.

Strawman argument.

I'm trying to figure out the rationale for firing Ozzie.

DannyCaterFan
09-27-2008, 10:33 PM
Shades of 1967 all over again.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:33 PM
The Yankees kept making the playoffs with Torre at the helm. Torre won four World Series before he lost one. And then he made another one. And then he kept making the playoffs.

Ozzie has had one playoff appearance. Yes, he won it all, but his first place teams choked it away in 2004 and 2006. He's about to choke for the third time.
'04 shouldn't be counted as a choke because our two best players went down. '06, hmmm, I don't know if I'd count that as a choke because our pitching staff was just gassed. Here in '08 NOBODY in our bullpen can get anybody out, it doesn't matter who Ozzie puts out there. A manager is only as good as the players he has and there were some moves that Kenny should have made that would have helped (see: Chad Bradford)...like I said, Ozzie can only play with the players Kenny gives him, and there's only been one year that Kenny has gotten Ozzie the sort of players he has wanted and we know what happened that year.

kruzer31
09-27-2008, 10:34 PM
God love ya Kruzer...please share what you're having.I wish i could
still feel that way but after these last 5 games...


Well, i am tired of thinking about how every player on this team isnt't stepping up and tired of everyone complaining. It kills me inside and my wife cant take it anymore with my mood swings. I am emotionally drained and just thinking that I dont have any control over the outcome of these games and its not like the players are not trying. Do you think A.J wanted to belt a 2 run HR to tie it in the 8th. Hell yeah he did, do you think Linebrink wanted to give the 4 back in the ninth. Of course not. Its out of our control and the only thing I can hope for is a 3 game winning streak. The players are probably drinking some beer and b.s. ing right now and not letting it bug them but we are. We care more because its what we love and what we care about most other then family and our careers. I dont know what else to say but if they make it great, if not, I can not let my ulcer bleed anymore because of them.

J

Woofer
09-27-2008, 10:34 PM
I became a Sox fan growing up in the early 90s. 1996-1999 I could take, those were down years and dissapointing, but it happens. From 2000 on, the team was competitive and I was pretty content every year. Last season was dissapointing, but a down year happens every now and then.

This year is too much. I don't know how to handle it.
Dude. I've been watching this crap since 1977. Except for 1983, 1990 and 1993, just about every year went very badly. And even those good years ended badly. 2005 was great, but it almost seems like it was a dream that didn't happen. I think the year in, year out disappointment is making me stressed out and old.

scarsofthumper
09-27-2008, 10:34 PM
I don't know if I should be more disgusted as a White Sox fan, a Chicago resident, or as a Puerto Rican male.

I hope you tear both your quads walking into your new house, Javy.

kevingrt
09-27-2008, 10:34 PM
I'd keep Kenny and send Ozzie packing. A team that seems to lack focus and determination, that isn't trying it's hardest when the division is there for the taking down the stretch in September, should be on the manager.

What is Ozzie suppose to do to focus this team?

Ozzie shows more determination and focus then anyone how do you instill that in your team? I mean when you have the head cases on this team that there are it's not the managers fault they are on the team.

Ozzie can only do so much. The collapse in September of this team is not his fault.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:35 PM
Neither Kenny or Ozzie will get fired, you can put your house on that...IF I had to choose which one should be gone, it'd be Kenny. In a heartbeat.

Also, the Sox won the 2005 World Series dispite of Ozzie and his nonesense "Ozzie Ball."


They won because of Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, & Garland. That's it. Plain and simple.

Hate to quote Scarface, "but who but that thing together," me (Kenny), that's who.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:36 PM
I'd keep Kenny and send Ozzie packing. A team that seems to lack focus and determination, that isn't trying it's hardest when the division is there for the taking down the stretch in September, should be on the manager.
Like I said in a previous post, when nobody in the bullpen can throw a strike, much less record an out, it's hard to keep a team focused and look good. THAT reflects directly on the GM, so does consistently assembling teams that can't execute and are offensively one dimensional (something Kenny has been doing since '01).

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:36 PM
What is Ozzie suppose to do to focus this team?

Ozzie shows more determination and focus then anyone how do you instill that in your team? I mean when you have the head cases on this team that there are it's not the managers fault they are on the team.

Ozzie can only do so much. The collapse in September of this team is not his fault.

Whether Ozzie is doing his job or not is irrelevant. When the players aren't responding, it's time for a change in personnel.

Viva Medias B's
09-27-2008, 10:37 PM
Strawman argument.

I'm trying to figure out the rationale for firing Ozzie.

I'm not necessarily saying he should be fired. My point was that New York and Boston are much less tolerant of blowing away the season like we have.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:37 PM
He might not win a world series, but I think he'd make the playoffs. I have trust in ozzie, but when you don't have the players, it's hard to look good...truth be told, I'm not so sure Kenny is to blame for this mess either, after Bobby went down the bullpen which looked so good earlier just fell apart.

I think he might be able to do it with the Rays or Angels.

But then again, Mike Scioscia and Joe Maddon emphasize the "fundamentals" in ways that Ozzie does not.

Ozzie likes players who can execute the fundamentals, but he doesn't make his players practice those fundamentals.

Scioscia and Madden make their players practice the fundamentals, so that they are able to execute them in games.

I'm not saying that Jerry Manuel was a good manager. But he did make his players practice the fundamentals. Ozzie inherited a team that for the most part had been used to practicing the fundamentals. And the 2005 team added Dye and AJ, both of whom also previously had practiced the fundamentals (Dye came up with the Braves and AJ with the Twins).

Now, after several years of not practicing the fundamentals every day, the Sox are out of practice executing the fundamentals. Combine that with a bunch of hitters who are slow and like to swing for the fences, and we have a recipe for an offense that is powerful but inconsistent.

So, if Ozzie took over the Rays or Angels in 2009, I think he might take them far in the playoffs. But if he managed either of those teams for several years, their ability to execute the fundamentals would atrophy.

Bulls_Fan
09-27-2008, 10:37 PM
Sox have to win tomorrow...then monday...then tuesday.

3 in a row?

Does anyone see "this" team accomplishing that?

PeoriaSoxFan
09-27-2008, 10:38 PM
If you would have told me that Cleveland would score 23 runs against us in 2 games, I would have.... Well, I don't what I would have said at this point. Now, if you tell me tomorrow that Bullington beats Buehrle, than I will say you are nuts. My negativity isn't working, so lets try optimism. We are still in control of our destiny. All we need is a 14 game winning streak and we are WS Champs. (I will gladly settle for a 3 game winning streak!)

soxinem1
09-27-2008, 10:39 PM
I've been holding out hope, but this is how I feel:


http://www.blissonwheels.com/2008/titanic-sinking.jpg

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:39 PM
Like I said in a previous post, when nobody in the bullpen can throw a strike, much less record an out, it's hard to keep a team focused and look good. THAT reflects directly on the GM, so does consistently assembling teams that can't execute and are offensively one dimensional (something Kenny has been doing since '01).


Throwing strikes is all about mechanics. Who works on mechanics with you, the pitching coach.

He has to go.

3 straight seasons of bullpen disaster.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:39 PM
If you would have told me that Cleveland would score 23 runs against us in 2 games, I would have.... Well, I don't what I would have said at this point. Now, if you tell me tomorrow that Bullington beats Buehrle, than I will say you are nuts. My negativity isn't working, so lets try optimism. We are still in control of our destiny. All we need is a 14 game winning streak and we are WS Champs. (I will gladly settle for a 3 game winning streak!)

This is the one thing I am very optimistic about. Buehrle has the biggest stones on the team.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:39 PM
Also, the Sox won the 2005 World Series dispite of Ozzie and his nonesense "Ozzie Ball."


They won because of Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, & Garland. That's it. Plain and simple.

Hate to quote Scarface, "but who but that thing together," me (Kenny), that's who.
Ok, then who put together the disaster of '07? The corpseball teams of '01-'03? The bullpen that is incapable of throwing a strike in September of '08? That would also be Kenny. It's not as though he has a sterling track record here.

We won in '05 because of pitching yes, but you can't win a score less ball game (as this team has shown throughout May), the '05 team's ability to execute was a huge part of that team's success.

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 10:40 PM
It's funny to think that KW had created this 'unstoppable' bullpen earlier this season. Then he trades Masset, and everybody's like "Oh, that's ok because we needed to give up a little to get Ken Griffey Junior". Lo and behold, Ken Griffey Junior has been a bust, sort of, and we can't get an out, ever. Seriously, KW needs to build the pitching staff up again, then deal with the offense, if he even has the money left to do so, and then get back to buisness.

Billy Bavasi would do a better job, for sure. :rolleyes:

Woofer
09-27-2008, 10:40 PM
Sox have to win tomorrow...then monday...then tuesday.

3 in a row?

Does anyone see "this" team accomplishing that?
I think the Sox and Twins could both lose tomorrow. The Sox then would have to win on Monday to tie, and Tuesday for the Division.

kruzer31
09-27-2008, 10:41 PM
Also, the Sox won the 2005 World Series dispite of Ozzie and his nonesense "Ozzie Ball."


They won because of Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, & Garland. That's it. Plain and simple.

Hate to quote Scarface, "but who but that thing together," me (Kenny), that's who.


Pods had a huge first half with 41 SB which was part of Ozzie Ball. I think Credes 2 HRs vs CLE (one walk off) helped as well. I think the offense vs BOS in the ALDS was huge as was El Duque who bailed out Freddy. I think A.J.s antics vs ANA and Credes bat and glove and Konerkos game 3 and 4 first inning homers were part of it too. Dont forget Dye setting the tone vs Clemens and Jenks blowing Bagwell into retirement and Paulies Slam and Pods walk off and Geoff Blum and Willie Harris big single to allow Dye to single him in and Juan diving into the stands to make a better catch then Jeters even though ESPN doesnt believe so. It just wasnt the 4 starters in the playoffs that won the whole thing. It was Ozzie, and everyone that brought us that World Series my man


Jeff

tstrike2000
09-27-2008, 10:41 PM
Just when we think the team couldn't reach a new low, they deliver.

WHILEPITCH
09-27-2008, 10:41 PM
I've been holding out hope, but this is how I feel:


http://www.blissonwheels.com/2008/titanic-sinking.jpg

Why post photos of our steep upper deck right now? just piling it on.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:42 PM
When judging Ozzie for this year, don't look at the bullpen situation.


Just look no further than the emberassment which has become of our fundementals.

Exhibit A

The rundowns.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-27-2008, 10:43 PM
This is the one thing I am very optimistic about. Buehrle has the biggest stones on the team.

The last, best hope for White Sox fans.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:43 PM
Throwing strikes is all about mechanics. Who works on mechanics with you, the pitching coach.

He has to go.

3 straight seasons of bullpen disaster.
Well...when you keep grabbing guys like Sisco, MacDougal, (to a lesser extent) Carrasco and saying "Here you go pitching coach, make them throw strikes!" it sure as hell is asking a lot of out them.

For the record I think there is enough blame to go around here for both Ozzie, Kenny, Coop, but in the end you really need the players to come through, and we really just have a bunch of mediocre players.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:43 PM
This is the first time the Yankees do not play post season in like 10 years.

What are you talking about? :scratch:

Trying to make sense of the asinine fire Ozzie, Kenny arguments.

PeoriaSoxFan
09-27-2008, 10:45 PM
I say we start Borgeouis tomorrow. I don't know why, but he is overdue to see some PT. Maybe Owens and Fields also.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-27-2008, 10:45 PM
Pods had a huge first half with 41 SB which was part of Ozzie Ball. I think Credes 2 HRs vs CLE (one walk off) helped as well. I think the offense vs BOS in the ALDS was huge as was El Duque who bailed out Freddy. I think A.J.s antics vs ANA and Credes bat and glove and Konerkos game 3 and 4 first inning homers were part of it too. Dont forget Dye setting the tone vs Clemens and Jenks blowing Bagwell into retirement and Paulies Slam and Pods walk off and Geoff Blum and Willie Harris big single to allow Dye to score and Juan diving into the stands to make a better catch then Jeters even though ESPN doesnt believe so. It just wasnt the 4 starters in the playoffs that won the whole thing. It was Ozzie, and everyone that brought us that World Series my man


Jeff

Your whole post almost brought tears to my eyes.:(:

tstrike2000
09-27-2008, 10:46 PM
KW gets credit for Quentin and Ramirez.

He gets scorn for Griffey, Swisher and Cabrera.

Don't forget Danks and Floyd to KW's credit. Outside of that, it's not been too good.

PeoriaSoxFan
09-27-2008, 10:46 PM
Ok, then who put together the disaster of '07? The corpseball teams of '01-'03? The bullpen that is incapable of throwing a strike in September of '08? That would also be Kenny. It's not as though he has a sterling track record here.

We won in '05 because of pitching yes, but you can't win a score less ball game (as this team has shown throughout May), the '05 team's ability to execute was a huge part of that team's success.


true that bro. I am out and predicting that I will be posting happy posts tomorrow. Go Sox, never give up!

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:47 PM
For the record I think there is enough blame to go around here for both Ozzie, Kenny, Coop, but in the end you really need the players to come through, and we really just have a bunch of mediocre players.

Some very expensive mediocre players. This is not a good team. They were predicted to be a 4th place team and they are now finally living up to it.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 10:47 PM
'04 shouldn't be counted as a choke because our two best players went down. '06, hmmm, I don't know if I'd count that as a choke because our pitching staff was just gassed. Here in '08 NOBODY in our bullpen can get anybody out, it doesn't matter who Ozzie puts out there. A manager is only as good as the players he has and there were some moves that Kenny should have made that would have helped (see: Chad Bradford)...like I said, Ozzie can only play with the players Kenny gives him, and there's only been one year that Kenny has gotten Ozzie the sort of players he has wanted and we know what happened that year.

Maggs went down on 5/25/04. (He played hurt on 7/19 and 7/21.) Thomas played his last game on 7/6.

The Sox started tanking when Minnesota swept them at the Cell starting July 26.

So they competed just fine for 20 games, no worse than 2.5 games back and at times in first by .5 games.

If it was only due to injury, they would have started tanking almost immediately after they lost Maggs and Frank.

Then they got their hearts ripped out when they gave up against Minnesota, starting in the game where Hunter bulldozed Burke, after which Ozzie praised Hunter for playing hard-nosed baseball.

CHISOXFAN13
09-27-2008, 10:48 PM
Sox have to win tomorrow...then monday...then tuesday.

3 in a row?

Does anyone see "this" team accomplishing that?

****. I better go put money on the Twins then since you have them winning.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 10:50 PM
Exactly. I don't recall another scenario in my life (and if it exists, I'm sure someone here will point it out) where it was THERE FOR THE TAKING and these guys just will NOT take it. It's frustrating as hell to watch this. :angry:

I'm with you lady, a quick 1 to nothing loss Sunday would end this crap:angry:

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:51 PM
Trying to make sense of the asinine fire Ozzie, Kenny arguments.

Firing Kenny to me is asnine.

The Ozzie situation goes beyond the epic collapse we are seeing right now. It has more to do with the crap that has happend behind the scenes. Clubhouse stuff, throwing people under the bus including his boss and hitting coach. Yes you can hide that stuff under the rug when the team is winning and everyone is happy, but when the results are not there, this dirty laundry is exposed heavily and heads begin to roll.

Is it fair? No. But this is not something out of the world. Besides, Ozzie might quit on us as he always threatens to do so when things aren't going right. So the firing might not even be necessary.

Ozzie will either walk away or be asked to walk away.

That's just my feeling.

WHILEPITCH
09-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Sox have to win tomorrow...then monday...then tuesday.

3 in a row?

Does anyone see "this" team accomplishing that?

Royals are the better team than Minnesota at this point in the season.

Playing absolutely on fire. There may be no Tuesday game.

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 10:54 PM
Buehrle is pitching tomarrow. It's our best shot.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 10:54 PM
Shades of 1967 all over again.
Man I thought of that when the Minnesota series started...that means 2009 will be like 1968?


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:W_PTWQaaWCbXFM:http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/rocky_colavito_autograph.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/rocky_colavito_autograph.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php%3Fp%3Dcolavro01&h=310&w=219&sz=15&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__1iWffBJPLksp8miOrvuOkuaTCgc=&tbnid=W_PTWQaaWCbXFM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1968%2BRocky%2BColavito%2BTopps%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN):mad:

Lip Man 1
09-27-2008, 10:55 PM
This may be totally unfair but such is life.

Someone's head needs to get chopped.

That head belongs to Greg Walker.

Amazing. Another garbage pitcher, another high ERA, another seven innings, two runs.

This is a collapse worthy of the choke job in 1967.

Lip

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:55 PM
Maggs went down on 5/25/04. (He played hurt on 7/19 and 7/21.) Thomas played his last game on 7/6.

The Sox started tanking when Minnesota swept them at the Cell starting July 26.

So they competed just fine for 20 games, no worse than 2.5 games back and at times in first by .5 games.

If it was only due to injury, they would have started tanking almost immediately after they lost Maggs and Frank.

Then they got their hearts ripped out when they gave up against Minnesota, starting in the game where Hunter bulldozed Burke, after which Ozzie praised Hunter for playing hard-nosed baseball .

Ugh, still the single worst Sox game I've ever been to. Just something about that game I felt that that was it, that they were done. A bit pessimistic, sure.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:55 PM
Firing Kenny to me is asnine.


Why not fire him as well? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of non fundamental, stupid baseball players in the minors.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 10:55 PM
Maggs went down on 5/25/04. (He played hurt on 7/19 and 7/21.) Thomas played his last game on 7/6.

The Sox started tanking when Minnesota swept them at the Cell starting July 26.

So they competed just fine for 20 games, no worse than 2.5 games back and at times in first by .5 games.

If it was only due to injury, they would have started tanking almost immediately after they lost Maggs and Frank.

Then they got their hearts ripped out when they gave up against Minnesota, starting in the game where Hunter bulldozed Burke, after which Ozzie praised Hunter for playing hard-nosed baseball.
I dunno, I just don't think a team that has a lineup that consisted of guys like Davis, Crede (who hit .230 that year), Valentin, Timo Perez was going to compete against Minnesota. I also don't think our rotation held a candle to a rotation featuring the likes of Radke, Santana and Silva...not to mention the bullpen.

kruzer31
09-27-2008, 10:56 PM
If we dont make the playoffs this year this team might look pretty close to the same without any big time trades. The free agents for 2009 are mostly old and not really that good. They could sign O. Hudson to play second and trade for Figgins but I dont know who goes to the Angels. Inless we pay big money for a Burnett, Sabathia, or Sheets which we wont, the rotation will look the same.

1.Figgins 3b
2.Hudson 2b
3.Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5.Dye RF
6.Konerko 1b
7.Ramirez SS
8.A.J C
9 Swisher/Ownes CF

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, and Richard

Pen... Start with Thorton, Jenks, and Dotel, go from there

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 10:59 PM
http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/r2-d2-princess-leia-hologram.jpg


"Help us, O Mark Buehrle, you're our only hope."

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:59 PM
If we dont make the playoffs this year this team might look pretty close to the same without any big time trades. The free agents for 2009 are mostly old and not really that good. They could sign the Hudson to play second and trade for Figgins but I dont know who goes to the Angels. Inless we pay big money for a Burnett, Sabathia, or Sheets which we wont, the rotation will look the same.

1.Figgins 3b
2.Hudson 2b
3.Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5.Dye RF
6.Konerko 1b
7.Ramirez SS
8.A.J C
9 Swisher/Ownes CF

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, and Richard

Pen... Start with Thorton, Jenks, and Dotel, go from there

That's a lot of speculation. Trading seems like less of an option. Jerry just may have to spend some more money.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 10:59 PM
Buehrle is pitching tomarrow. It's our best shot.


So:

Buehrle - Sunday 3 days rest
Gavin - Monday 3 days rest
Danks - Tuesday 3 days res .... OMG.... well, he might be fresh after Friday's short outing.


Vazquez - Thursday - Game 1 (normal rest)
Buehrle - Friday - Game 2 (normal rest)
Gavin - Sunday - Game 3 (normal rest+1)


So brace youselves Sox fans.... Javy will get the ball for Game 1 !!!

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 11:00 PM
If we dont make the playoffs this year this team might look pretty close to the same without any big time trades. The free agents for 2009 are mostly old and not really that good. They could sign O. Hudson to play second and trade for Figgins but I dont know who goes to the Angels. Inless we pay big money for a Burnett, Sabathia, or Sheets which we wont, the rotation will look the same.

1.Figgins 3b
2.Hudson 2b
3.Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5.Dye RF
6.Konerko 1b
7.Ramirez SS
8.A.J C
9 Swisher/Ownes CF

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, and Richard

Pen... Start with Thorton, Jenks, and Dotel, go from there

I'm tired of quick-fix players like Hudson and Figgins would be. They're not young enough. Period.

If we want to compete in the future, we need to try to find players that will have a rising future for the next several years. Hudson and Figgins smell like OC...

ms620
09-27-2008, 11:00 PM
If we dont make the playoffs this year this team might look pretty close to the same without any big time trades. The free agents for 2009 are mostly old and not really that good. They could sign O. Hudson to play second and trade for Figgins but I dont know who goes to the Angels. Inless we pay big money for a Burnett, Sabathia, or Sheets which we wont, the rotation will look the same.

1.Figgins 3b
2.Hudson 2b
3.Quentin LF
4 Thome DH
5.Dye RF
6.Konerko 1b
7.Ramirez SS
8.A.J C
9 Swisher/Ownes CF

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, and Richard

Pen... Start with Thorton, Jenks, and Dotel, go from there

Richard will not be int he rotation, and Linebrink will be the set up man...

kruzer31
09-27-2008, 11:01 PM
So:

Buehrle - Sunday 3 days rest
Gavin - Monday 3 days rest
Danks - Tuesday 3 days res .... OMG.... well, he might be fresh after Friday's short outing.


Vazquez - Thursday - Game 1 (normal rest)
Buehrle - Friday - Game 2 (normal rest)
Gavin - Sunday - Game 3 (normal rest+1)


So brace youselves Sox fans.... Javy will get the ball for Game 1 !!!


I dont care if Jaime Navarro has the ball for game 1 vs TB, as long as we are in game one.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:02 PM
Don't forget Danks and Floyd to KW's credit. Outside of that, it's not been too good.

I'm not forgetting them. They were not acquired this past offseason. Those deals were made between 2006 and 2007. I was making points about his job for this season.

I don't think I'd fire KW. It's pretty clear the Sox are in a transition year and benefited from an overall down year in the AL Central.

Once it was clear the Sox had "staying power;" that they were a first place team at the trade deadline; KW should have made a deal for pitching help.

Brian Fuentes was available. Houston Street was available. The Astros acquired two relievers who helped them make a late-season run for the Wild Card. But KW didn't like the price of pitching, so he made the splashy move for Junior.

At this point, if the Sox had just won two more games at any time this season, they would have clinched a playoff spot with Minnesota's loss today. Two measly games.

Don't you think that KW could have gotten a reliever who could have been the difference in winning two more games since Aug. 1?

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Why not fire him as well? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of non fundamental, stupid baseball players in the minors.


The talent on that 25 man roster is more than enough to beat out the Twins every year ..... the job on the field is not getting done.

For every bad move Kenny makes he makes up with it by making 3-4 solid ones. That's a pretty good GM to me.

Just think, 29 other GMs envy cheap in-expensive pick ups like Quentin, Alexei, Gavin, Danks.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 11:04 PM
This may be totally unfair but such is life.

Someone's head needs to get chopped.

That head belongs to Greg Walker.

Amazing. Another garbage pitcher, another high ERA, another seven innings, two runs.

This is a collapse worthy of the choke job in 1967.

Lip

And you really can't point any fingers at Coop.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:06 PM
And you really can't point any fingers at Coop.


Why not?

kevingrt
09-27-2008, 11:06 PM
Whether Ozzie is doing his job or not is irrelevant. When the players aren't responding, it's time for a change in personnel.

That is sad. But that is where we are in all professional sports with coaching changes. And it is unfortunate.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:06 PM
I dont care if Jaime Navarro has the ball for game 1 vs TB, as long as we are in game one.
****, I'd think we'd have a better shot with Navarro starting that game than Big Game Javy.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:09 PM
I'm not forgetting them. They were not acquired this past offseason. Those deals were made between 2006 and 2007. I was making points about his job for this season.

I don't think I'd fire KW. It's pretty clear the Sox are in a transition year and benefited from an overall down year in the AL Central.

Once it was clear the Sox had "staying power;" that they were a first place team at the trade deadline; KW should have made a deal for pitching help.

Brian Fuentes was available. Houston Street was available. The Astros acquired two relievers who helped them make a late-season run for the Wild Card. But KW didn't like the price of pitching, so he made the splashy move for Junior.

At this point, if the Sox had just won two more games at any time this season, they would have clinched a playoff spot with Minnesota's loss today. Two measly games.

Don't you think that KW could have gotten a reliever who could have been the difference in winning two more games since Aug. 1?


You keep beating the dead horse. And has been said over 10,000 times on this board. It takes two to make a trade. Kenny wanted pitching help line no one else, problem is no one wanted any of the crap we had to offer.


So you want to make Nintendo Baseball trades now?

Woofer
09-27-2008, 11:10 PM
****, I'd think we'd have a better shot with Navarro starting that game than Big Game Javy.
Nope, would have to go with Javy here, I sure even Esteban Loiazas arm is in better shape than Navarros.

9in'59
09-27-2008, 11:11 PM
I WILL not give up!! This baby is not over!! :angry:

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:11 PM
You keep beating the dead horse. And has been said over 10,000 times on this board. It takes two to make a trade. Kenny wanted pitching help line no one else, problem is no one wanted any of the crap we had to offer.


So you want to make Nintendo Baseball trades now?
Part of the reason no one wanted our crap was because Kenny traded our best pieces for a .220 hitting CF who can't really play defense all that well...

WhiteSoxOnly
09-27-2008, 11:12 PM
Anybody hear any postgame comments yet ?

CHISOXFAN13
09-27-2008, 11:13 PM
I'm not forgetting them. They were not acquired this past offseason. Those deals were made between 2006 and 2007. I was making points about his job for this season.

I don't think I'd fire KW. It's pretty clear the Sox are in a transition year and benefited from an overall down year in the AL Central.

Once it was clear the Sox had "staying power;" that they were a first place team at the trade deadline; KW should have made a deal for pitching help.

Brian Fuentes was available. Houston Street was available. The Astros acquired two relievers who helped them make a late-season run for the Wild Card. But KW didn't like the price of pitching, so he made the splashy move for Junior.

At this point, if the Sox had just won two more games at any time this season, they would have clinched a playoff spot with Minnesota's loss today. Two measly games.

Don't you think that KW could have gotten a reliever who could have been the difference in winning two more games since Aug. 1?

If those two were so "available" why didn;t any other contender land them?

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 11:13 PM
Why not?

Can Coop really get into Vasquez's head and get him to to the next level or is he as far as any one can take him and his talent has to take him to that level.....:scratch:

What does Don Cooper do for Mark Buehrle?

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:13 PM
Easily my least favorite Sox team of all time. I'd take Luis Terrero, Tony Phillips and Danny Wright over this crap.

I agree. It's not because they are not very good or because they are collapsing either. It's they way they sit back and wait for homers and how bad their fundamentals are. You can see it when they play a team like the Twins. They bunt and steal and seem to know how to play the game even if they don't have lots of talent. The underachievement by guys like Swisher kills me.

That said, this team can still win the division and, if they don't, I'm still going to go down with the ship and not give up on them.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:15 PM
You keep beating the dead horse. And has been said over 10,000 times on this board. It takes two to make a trade. Kenny wanted pitching help line no one else, problem is no one wanted any of the crap we had to offer.


So you want to make Nintendo Baseball trades now?

No.

What happened is that KW didn't like the price of relief pitching. It was available, but KW didn't want to pay the price. He could have sent Swisher back to Oakland for Huston Street, who has a 3.73 ERA. Wouldn't that be better than Dotel, Wassermann, Logan or Ramirez?

whitesoxfan
09-27-2008, 11:15 PM
This whole thing just reeks of the end of 2006 when we had chance after chance to get back in the Wild Card race but our pitching went to complete **** and we couldn't buy a win. I remember we ended up losing 3 of 4 to a terrible Seattle team at home to end the year. This series is looking awfully reminiscent of that one.

Just find any way to win tomorrow and get us to Monday. Minnesota very well could lose again as well.

Noneck
09-27-2008, 11:15 PM
This is a collapse worthy of the choke job in 1967.

Lip
Lip,

1967 was no where near as bad as this. They were not as close to prize this late and they lost the last 5 but weren't disgraced in their loses as they are now.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:15 PM
I'm not forgetting them. They were not acquired this past offseason. Those deals were made between 2006 and 2007. I was making points about his job for this season.

I don't think I'd fire KW. It's pretty clear the Sox are in a transition year and benefited from an overall down year in the AL Central.

Once it was clear the Sox had "staying power;" that they were a first place team at the trade deadline; KW should have made a deal for pitching help.

Brian Fuentes was available. Houston Street was available. The Astros acquired two relievers who helped them make a late-season run for the Wild Card. But KW didn't like the price of pitching, so he made the splashy move for Junior.

At this point, if the Sox had just won two more games at any time this season, they would have clinched a playoff spot with Minnesota's loss today. Two measly games.

Don't you think that KW could have gotten a reliever who could have been the difference in winning two more games since Aug. 1?

We will never know that Masset could have been the savior of the season.
I would not be surprised if Kenny knew this would not be a team of winning the Series this year. So that ruled out any desperate moves.

You need to look back before Aug 1. How many games did the feast or faminie lineup cost some games?

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:16 PM
No.
He could have sent Swisher back to Oakland for Huston Street, who has a 3.73 ERA.

I'd take anything for Swisher at this point.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Part of the reason no one wanted our crap was because Kenny traded our best pieces for a .220 hitting CF who can't really play defense all that well...


That trade was a huge failure now that we see it. But back in March, O brother were all the Sox fans flocking down to their local Sports Authority to get a Swisher jersey.

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Part of the reason no one wanted our crap was because Kenny traded our best pieces for a .220 hitting CF who can't really play defense all that well...

I'd hardly call Danny Richar and Nick Masset "our best pieces." That said, we probably would have been better served dealing them for a reliever than Griffey.

EDIT: Nevermind, wrong CF deal!

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:17 PM
This is a collapse worthy of the choke job in 1967.

Lip

It certainly would be the biggest Sox collapse in my 33 years.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:18 PM
We will never know that Masset could have been the savior of the season.
I would not be surprised if Kenny knew this would not be a team of winning the Series this year. So that ruled out any desperate moves.

You need to look back before Aug 1. How many games did the feast or faminie lineup cost some games?


This is the second time I read this so far tonight, if we as Sox fans believe this than we might be the dumbest fanbase in the face of the earth.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:18 PM
This whole thing just reeks of the end of 2006 when we had chance after chance to get back in the Wild Card race but our pitching went to complete **** and we couldn't buy a win. I remember we ended up losing 3 of 4 to a terrible Seattle team at home to end the year. This series is looking awfully reminiscent of that one.

Just find any way to win tomorrow and get us to Monday. Minnesota very well could lose again as well.

That was a tough division in 2006. 95 wins wasn't good enough to win the division.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:19 PM
Some of you are out of your minds.

BainesHOF
09-27-2008, 11:19 PM
Just when I was about to compliment Ranger on how he's been handling the postgame show during our losing streak, he twisted the great point a caller made about pitching guys on short rest.

Then Ranger somehow ventured into a pointless theoretical rant about Richard and how fans would have criticized Ozzie if he pitched the rookie.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 11:20 PM
It certainly would be the biggest Sox collapse in my 33 years.
Actually the end of 2005 could have been......:angry:

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Part of the reason no one wanted our crap was because Kenny traded our best pieces for a .220 hitting CF who can't really play defense all that well...

Ah yes - a guy just off surgery, a guy who was a complete bust, and a corner OF with no power - that would have made a difference.

whitesoxfan
09-27-2008, 11:21 PM
That was a tough division in 2006. 95 wins wasn't good enough to win the division.

I'm just comparing the way we played at the end of the year that year to the way we're playing at the end of the year this year. It's very similar. The pitching and bullpen went to complete shambles at the end of that year and it's doing the same thing this year.

Our guy is taking the bump tomorrow, so I'm confident we'll at least force this thing to Monday with the Tiger killer on the mound.

DrCrawdad
09-27-2008, 11:21 PM
I'd hardly call Danny Richar and Nick Masset "our best pieces." That said, we probably would have been better served dealing them for a reliever than Griffey.

EDIT: Nevermind, wrong CF deal!

No they weren't the best pieces, but they were somewhat valuable pieces. Heck, we may have been better served by not acquiring KGJr (sorry KGJr, I really hoped for the best. In fact, prove me wrong and be a hero tomorrow and then Monday and Tuesday.)

TDog
09-27-2008, 11:21 PM
I predict a new manager and coaching staff will be standing besides him....so all will be fine with Sox fans. ...

That isn't going to happen. I'm not saying I agree with all of the decisions Guillen has made this year. I don't agree with all the decisions he made tonight. I posted int he game thread that I would have put Jenks in the game in the ninth (assuming he was warm) because there was no save situation possible and holding the Indians was critical.

Both intentional walks came around to score. As I saw them being issued, I complained they would probably come around to score, not because I was being pessimistic, but because that what intentional walks do more often than not. I am not second-guessing. I haven't agreed this year with Guillen bunting (except for the suicide squeezes, of which the team was one-for-two, not because the team can't bunt but because giving up an out to advance a runner usually results in no runs being scored.

Most of all, I didn't agree with the Sox going to a four-man rotation, although I believe in four-man rotations in principal. The Sox pitchers haven't been conditioned to go on three days' rest. In tonight's game, failures were probably rooted in the four-man rotation. Vazquez has not pitched well with only three days' rest. Tonight he seemed to have great stuff. He ran out of gas in the fifth.

I knew the Sox would score runs tonight just as they scored runs last night. But I'm not going to say Guillen lost the game because he pitched Vazquez on three days' rest, again, or he brought Linebrink in to pitch the ninth or even that he handed the Indians two runs with intentional walks (the second was in desperation and more excusable -- the first really surprised me, it being so blatantly bad baseball).

Guillen and his coaches have done what they needed to do with what they've had to work with. The four-man rotation was seen as necessary with Contreras lost to a non-throwing-arm injury. Uribe might be best suited as a bench player, but Crede went down and Fields is as big a disappointment offensively as he is defensively. This team lost its MVP and has had to make due.

Up to a point, the Sox had a great bullpen this season. But it's a long season and bullpens are dynamic. Starting pitchers who consistently can't go past six strain them. When one or two important guys can't go, it puts strain on. Dotel lost movement on his fastball and couldn't get his breaking ball over late this year and being undependable put strain on other relievers. Some guys who look great by ever measure stop looking great because hitters have figured them out. Signing a couple of established relievers (i.e. Dotel and Linebrink) won't necessarily make your bullpen stronger in August and September, any more than trading a failing closer for a 40-plus save guy who can bring it up to triple digits (i.e. Foulke for Koch) will improve your bullpen. Pick up a pitcher who was great last year. Rick White down the stretch for the Cardinals in 2002 was awesome. With the White Sox in 2003, he was quite hitable. Pick up a veteran like Alan Embree and he pitches like you could stick a fork in his career. He is still getting a lot of work out of the A's bullpen seven years later.

I don't agree with everything field and head office management has done this year, but they did what they needed to do at the time. They did what they believed needed being done to win. Unfortunately the players haven't won enough up to this point.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:22 PM
Ah yes - a guy just off surgery, a guy who was a complete bust, and a corner OF with no power - that would have made a difference.


Dammit Kenny, that would have gotten you Mariano Rivera.

What an idiot.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:22 PM
If those two were so "available" why didn;t any other contender land them?

The Astros got Randy Wolf for Chad Reineke, a AAA pitcher with a mid-4 ERA who was drafted in the 13th round in 2004 after three college seasons at Miami of Ohio. Think the Sox have any minor league prospects of that caliber?

The Astros got LaTroy Hawkins and cash for minor league infielder Matt Cusick. Hawkins is 2-0 with a 0.45 ERA with the Astros. You think he could have helped the Sox?

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:23 PM
Ah yes - a guy just off surgery, a guy who was a complete bust, and a corner OF with no power - that would have made a difference.
Gio has pitched how many games in the bigs and we're ready to call him a complete bust? I'm not saying they're certain HOFers, but those are three trading trips we sure could have used at the deadline.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:25 PM
That isn't going to happen. I'm not saying I agree with all of the decisions Guillen has made this year. I don't agree with all the decisions he made tonight. I posted int he game thread that I would have put Jenks in the game in the ninth (assuming he was warm) because there was no save situation possible and holding the Indians was critical.

Both intentional walks came around to score. As I saw them being issued, I complained they would probably come around to score, not because I was being pessimistic, but because that what intentional walks do more often than not. I am not second-guessing. I haven't agreed this year with Guillen bunting (except for the suicide squeezes, of which the team was one-for-two, not because the team can't bunt but because giving up an out to advance a runner usually results in no runs being scored.

Most of all, I didn't agree with the Sox going to a four-man rotation, although I believe in four-man rotations in principal. The Sox pitchers haven't been conditioned to go on three days' rest. In tonight's game, failures were probably rooted in the four-man rotation. Vazquez has not pitched well with only three days' rest. Tonight he seemed to have great stuff. He ran out of gas in the fifth.

I knew the Sox would score runs tonight just as they scored runs last night. But I'm not going to say Guillen lost the game because he pitched Vazquez on three days' rest, again, or he brought Linebrink in to pitch the ninth or even that he handed the Indians two runs with intentional walks (the second was in desperation and more excusable -- the first really surprised me, it being so blatantly bad baseball).

Guillen and his coaches have done what they needed to do with what they've had to work with. The four-man rotation was seen as necessary with Contreras lost to a non-throwing-arm injury. Uribe might be best suited as a bench player, but Crede went down and Fields is as big a disappointment offensively as he is defensively. This team lost its MVP and has had to make due.

Up to a point, the Sox had a great bullpen this season. But it's a long season and bullpens are dynamic. Starting pitchers who consistently can't go past six strain them. When one or two important guys can't go, it puts strain on. Dotel lost movement on his fastball and couldn't get his breaking ball over late this year and being undependable put strain on other relievers. Some guys who look great by ever measure stop looking great because hitters have figured them out. Signing a couple of established relievers (i.e. Dotel and Linebrink) won't necessarily make your bullpen stronger in August and September, any more than trading a failing closer for a 40-plus save guy who can bring it up to triple digits (i.e. Foulke for Koch) will improve your bullpen. Pick up a pitcher who was great last year. Rick White down the stretch for the Cardinals in 2002 was awesome. With the White Sox in 2003, he was quite hitable. Pick up a veteran like Alan Embree and he pitches like you could stick a fork in his career. He is still getting a lot of work out of the A's bullpen seven years later.

I don't agree with everything field and head office management has done this year, but they did what they needed to do at the time. They did what they believed needed being done to win. Unfortunately the players haven't won enough up to this point.


I briefly read your novel there, but everything you are discussing is on-field stuff. Other than Fundementals, Ozzie can't be blamed for much of anything else.

The stuff behind the scenes (clubhouse) is what IMO are a concern.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:26 PM
The Astros got Randy Wolf for Chad Reineke, a AAA pitcher with a mid-4 ERA who was drafted in the 13th round in 2004 after three college seasons at Miami of Ohio. Think the Sox have any minor league prospects of that caliber?

The Astros got LaTroy Hawkins and cash for infielder Matt Cusick. And he's 2-0 with a 0.45 ERA with the Astros. You think he could have helped the Sox?


How did Latroy's last stop with media go here... Very bad.

You wanted to deal with that circus?

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:27 PM
How did Latroy's last stop with media go here... Very bad.

You wanted to deal with that circus?
If he put up a 0.45 ERA, yes.

TDog
09-27-2008, 11:27 PM
I briefly read your novel there, but everything you are discussing is on-field stuff. Other than Fundementals, Ozzie can't be blamed for much of anything else.

The stuff behind the scenes (clubhouse) is what IMO are a concern.

Much of the stuff behind the scenes that people are complaining about is in their imaginations.

Medford Bobby
09-27-2008, 11:28 PM
OK, here goes a KARMA changer...every one cleans out there lockers TONIGHT!!:o:

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:29 PM
I can't believe Brooks is on the Radio right now begging and promoting to sell those 4,000 tickets remaining.

If they come, let it be Brooks. But when we play like crap, trying to sell tickets is kind of awkward to hear.

This is why Hawk sounded like a huge dumbass tonight.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:29 PM
How did Latroy's last stop with media go here... Very bad.

You wanted to deal with that circus?

I don't give a **** what happened with the choker Cubs.

He pitched well for the NL champion Rockies last year in a hitters park. He's pitched well this year in a very Cell-like Minute Maid Park.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Much of the stuff behind the scenes that people are complaining about is in their imaginations.
This idea that chemistry leads to winning is something of a misnomer, Tinkers to Evers to Chance didn't talk to each other for years, the '70s A's got into fist fights, the '77 Yankees weren't exactly a group of harmony...you can have chaos in the clubhouse and still win.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:30 PM
I can't believe Brooks is on the Radio right now begging and promoting to sell those 4,000 tickets remaining.

If they come, let it be Brooks. But when we play like crap, trying to sell tickets is kind of awkward to here.

This is why Hawk sounded like a huge dumbass tonight.

I know it's his job, but right now is not a good time to spin this.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Gio has pitched how many games in the bigs and we're ready to call him a complete bust? I'm not saying they're certain HOFers, but those are three trading trips we sure could have used at the deadline.

Based on what Gio did this year, he wouldn't have gotten us anything that we didn't have the pieces to get.

The Swisher deal didn't preclude us from any deadline deals. None - whatsoever.

And Gio WAS a complete bust this season. That's not to say he can't improve - but the As had much bigger plans for him than what they saw.

And DLS...and Sweeney... None of those guys would have gotten us Fuentes or anything if we couldn't trade stuff that we have still in our system.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:32 PM
If he put up a 0.45 ERA, yes.

NYY no pennant race.

Overhere, ask Dotel how it feels to get booed off the field.

Latroy would have had a meltdown after his first HR and sucked after that.


This is the one year I have to say Sox fans at the ballpark took it up one level over Yankee fans when it comes to hating people very easily.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:32 PM
I know it's his job, but right now is not a good time to spin this.

Are you kidding? We still control our own destiny. Why wouldn't he be trying to sell tickets? And why wouldn't fans want to go.

This team just needs to win 3 games in a row...against 3 bad teams...to make the postseason. Now granted - we are a bad team too right now - but why wouldn't Brooks want to sell tickets?

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:34 PM
Are you kidding? We still control our own destiny. Why wouldn't he be trying to sell tickets? And why wouldn't fans want to go.

This team just needs to win 3 games in a row...against 3 bad teams...to make the postseason. Now granted - we are a bad team too right now - but why wouldn't Brooks want to sell tickets?

Why would I be kidding? They are in the middle of a collapse.

I'm going to the game tomorrow, but I have no delusion about what is going on. I want people to go to the game, but you can't possibly be positive about what is happening right now.

GoGoCrede
09-27-2008, 11:35 PM
This is the one year I have to say Sox fans at the ballpark took it up one level over Yankee fans when it comes to hating people very easily.

True. Carrasco was booed off the field last night, and when Wassermann walked in a run he was booed as well. I think every ball thrown also received a hearty boo. Could've been my section though.

Cuck the Fubs
09-27-2008, 11:35 PM
This is just amazing....honestly. :?:

Twins can't beat the Royals, the Sox can't beat a softball team.

As stupid as this sounds, I still say the Sox are going to win this division.

How far they will go in the playoffs....:scratch:

I wonder if Carlos Gomez is still acting like a jackass now :redneck

Soxfest
09-27-2008, 11:35 PM
Choke City here we come, this is horrid how they are playing. Trade Vasquez this winter please!:angry:

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:35 PM
NYY no pennant race.

Overhere, ask Dotel how it feels to get booed off the field.

Latroy would have had a meltdown after his first HR and sucked after that.


This is the one year I have to say Sox fans at the ballpark took it up one level over Yankee fans when it comes to hating people very easily.

Hawkins didn't give up one HR with the Astros, who play in that ridiculous launching pad in Houston.

In fact, he didn't give up one stinking earned run with the Astros until last night.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2008, 11:36 PM
No Neck:


It's incredible just to have to be discussing this in the first place but 67 was worse because of WHO the Sox lost to, without question the two worst teams in the league in Kansas City and Washington.

This year the Twins were still a dozen or so games over .500 and the Indians have been a .500 team this year. The quality of the competition this year is still much better then 1967.

Lip

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:36 PM
I wonder if Carlos Gomez is still acting like a jackass now :redneck

You mean hitting two triples and a double in one game?

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:36 PM
Someone just called Javy "out of shape" on the radio.

They should cancel that radio show for good. Or just not take any calls, ever.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:37 PM
Hawkins has given up just 10 hits and five walks in 20 innings with Houston.

Think that might have helped the Sox bullpen in August and September?

DSpivack
09-27-2008, 11:39 PM
Someone just called Javy "out of shape" on the radio.

They should cancel that radio show for good. Or just not take any calls, ever.

That depends.

Did the caller mean that physically or mentally?

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 11:39 PM
NYY no pennant race.

Overhere, ask Dotel how it feels to get booed off the field.

Latroy would have had a meltdown after his first HR and sucked after that.


This is the one year I have to say Sox fans at the ballpark took it up one level over Yankee fans when it comes to hating people very easily.
Well, Colorado was in a pennant race last year, he did OK there, didn't he? New York was hanging around in the east until August too, then he was shipped to Houston who made a run at the Wild Card until last week, so he's well versed in a pennant race, he's certainly better than Boone Logan or Ehren Wasserman.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Hawkins has given up just 10 hits and five walks in 20 innings with Houston.

Think that might have helped the Sox bullpen in August and September?


Right because those numbers translate exactly the same to AL Baseball.
:rolleyes:

What's your point exactly?

Are you trying to say that not getting the great Latroy Hawkins is the reason we will not win this division or go to the World Series?

That's as asnine as the stupidity I heard earlier that Nick Masset is the reason we are not getting anywhere.


We have bigger holes than you think.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:43 PM
Why would I be kidding? They are in the middle of a collapse.

I'm going to the game tomorrow, but I have no delusion about what is going on. I want people to go to the game, but you can't possibly be positive about what is happening right now.

Who's positive? But the facts arethe facts. If we win out - we make the playoffs. Why wouldn't Brooks encourage folks to show up.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:44 PM
Hawkins didn't give up one HR with the Astros, who play in that ridiculous launching pad in Houston.

In fact, he didn't give up one stinking earned run with the Astros until last night.

Please show me all the threads of people clamouring for Hawkins in June and July. I missed them.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:44 PM
Who's positive? But the facts arethe facts. If we win out - we make the playoffs. Why wouldn't Brooks encourage folks to show up.

Someone who still displays the magic number of a team that is not even in first.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:45 PM
Right because those numbers translate exactly the same to AL Baseball.
:rolleyes:

What's your point exactly?

Are you trying to say that not getting the great Latroy Hawkins is the reason we will not win this division or go to the World Series?

That's as asnine as the stupidity I heard earlier that Nick Masset is the reason we are not getting anywhere.


We have bigger holes than you think.

No, he wouldn't be as dominant in the AL as he has been in the NL. But I'll bet my left nut he'd be better than Logan, Wassermann or Ramirez.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:45 PM
I'm just comparing the way we played at the end of the year that year to the way we're playing at the end of the year this year. It's very similar. The pitching and bullpen went to complete shambles at the end of that year and it's doing the same thing this year.

Our guy is taking the bump tomorrow, so I'm confident we'll at least force this thing to Monday with the Tiger killer on the mound.

It was 2006 they went back to "station to station" baseball. They still are looking to fill that hole in CF for a player who is limited to swinging at bat (I hate the DH). IN 2005 some of those guys had career years and we soon found out in 2006.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:47 PM
The Astros got Randy Wolf for Chad Reineke, a AAA pitcher with a mid-4 ERA who was drafted in the 13th round in 2004 after three college seasons at Miami of Ohio. Think the Sox have any minor league prospects of that caliber?

The Astros got LaTroy Hawkins and cash for minor league infielder Matt Cusick. Hawkins is 2-0 with a 0.45 ERA with the Astros. You think he could have helped the Sox?

If he threw like that - sure.

But when he was traded he was throwing a 5.71/1.44 line. What would you have given for him THEN? Wasn't he DFAd? And just the Yanks took what they could get?

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:48 PM
No, he wouldn't be as dominant in the AL as he has been in the NL. But I'll bet my left nut he'd be better than Logan, Wassermann or Ramirez.


Logan and Wassermann at one point this year were the darlings of WSI.

But it is nice to play Monday Morning QB now that we see they both Suck come September.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:50 PM
Someone who still displays the magic number of a team that is not even in first.

I haven't changed it in a week, it isn't correct, and have had it there since June... *just updated it*

Back to topic please...why wouldn't Brooks go out on the radio and sell optimisim, the fact that we have a chance, and that we can go to the post season if we win out.

captain54
09-27-2008, 11:50 PM
I don't agree with everything field and head office management has done this year, but they did what they needed to do at the time. They did what they believed needed being done to win. Unfortunately the players haven't won enough up to this point.

The honeymoon is over as far as trying to ride the 2005 WS Championship with the fans. What we are seeing is a joke, an embarrassment, and an abomination. Whatever was gained as result of 2005 is just about tapped out.

Whether or not KW or Ozzie did what they thought was the correct move is a mute point. It's about results, and for the most part Sox pitchers have served up batting practice this last week.

You can't expect fans to come out next year, and watch the same kind of disappointing crap. If it's all on the players, then why even have coaches, a field manager or a GM?

KW is here for a lifetime, and Ozzie if anything, would walk before he is let go. The only sacrificial lambs left are Cooper and Walker, and of the two, Walker could be the odd man out.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:50 PM
The stuff behind the scenes (clubhouse) is what IMO are a concern.

You have no clue what goes on there either.

Noneck
09-27-2008, 11:51 PM
No Neck:


It's incredible just to have to be discussing this in the first place but 67 was worse because of WHO the Sox lost to, without question the two worst teams in the league in Kansas City and Washington.

This year the Twins were still a dozen or so games over .500 and the Indians have been a .500 team this year. The quality of the competition this year is still much better then 1967.

Lip

Lip,

I know the A's and the Senators were the the doormats that year but I remember that the pitching wasn't disgraceful and they were not a hitting team. They also were not 1 game away this late with 1 team to beat. I thought after 05 I was able to put 67 to rest forever, I was wrong.

Urban Legend
09-27-2008, 11:51 PM
http://aim.search.aol.com/search/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fbostondirtdogs.boston. com%2FHeadline_Archives%2F10.2_Ozzie_choke_BDD.jpg&moduleId=image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:51 PM
I haven't changed it in a week, it isn't correct, and have had it there since June...

Back to topic please...why wouldn't Brooks go out on the radio and sell optimisim, the fact that we have a chance, and that we can go to the post season if we win out.

Because it's ****ing annoying after their fifth loss in a row, when if they could have just won one of them, they would be in the driver's seat. Who is he trying to convince?

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:52 PM
The honeymoon is over as far as trying to ride the 2005 WS Championship with the fans. What we are seeing is a joke, an embarrassment, and an abomination. Whatever was gained as result of 2005 is just about tapped out.


That's untrue.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:53 PM
Are you kidding? We still control our own destiny. Why wouldn't he be trying to sell tickets? And why wouldn't fans want to go.

This team just needs to win 3 games in a row...against 3 bad teams...to make the postseason. Now granted - we are a bad team too right now - but why wouldn't Brooks want to sell tickets?

Maybe he should try to sell them to Twins fans.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:53 PM
That's untrue.

On this point we agree. I don't think 2005 can ever be taken away.

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:53 PM
I haven't changed it in a week, it isn't correct, and have had it there since June...

Back to topic please...why wouldn't Brooks go out on the radio and sell optimisim, the fact that we have a chance, and that we can go to the post season if we win out.


Because just like Hawk the last 3 nights, you are trying to sell the same crap and the team fails miserably and just make you lose bad.

Just let it go, what happens happens. If the fans want to go, they will go. But don't sound like a fool trying to sell swamp land.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:53 PM
Because it's ****ing annoying after their fifth loss in a row, when if they could have just won one of them, they would be in the driver's seat. Who is he trying to convince?

Anyone who is interested in coming out and watching meaningful baseball at the end of September. If you aren't - that's cool. But why wouldn't the director of marketing (whatever his title is) come out and market if asked to come on a radio show? That's just silly to assume he wouldn't just because the guys on the field played crappy this week.

EuroSox35
09-27-2008, 11:54 PM
I can't blame this loss on Ozzie, but I still hate his in-game decisions. Anyone else wonder why he went to Wise tonight? He had his little hot streak and now it's over. If you're going to have a pinch hitter, why not Griffey, the man who is butter with RISP (and with a terrible righty on the mound to boot?). Between the off the field problems in the worst times possible, now having issues with the clubhouse, lineups (I like Anderson, but from playing him never to the number 2 hole?, never moving Alexie up, the Wise leadoff disaster, etc), handling of the pitchers (either pulling em too soon or not soon enough), and this Ozzieball crap is a myth. Since Manuel left, we were promised fundamentals, but 5 years later, we still can't handle sacrifices, run downs, etc. And to everyone who blames Kenny for not getting Ozzie type of players, you want a ton of Ozunas or Luis Castillo? They're mediocre, and you're not going to get Sizemore or anyone of that caliber. Be happy he just got Ramirez and MVP candidate Quentin out of his ass

DoItForDanPasqua
09-27-2008, 11:54 PM
Because just like Hawk the last 3 nights, you are trying to sell the same crap and the team fails miserably and just make you lose bad.

Just let it go, what happens happens. If the fans want to go, they will go. But don't sound like a fool trying to sell swamp land.

Amen. Like I said, I'll be there, but don't try and tell us things are still OK.

TDog
09-27-2008, 11:54 PM
No Neck:


It's incredible just to have to be discussing this in the first place but 67 was worse because of WHO the Sox lost to, without question the two worst teams in the league in Kansas City and Washington.

This year the Twins were still a dozen or so games over .500 and the Indians have been a .500 team this year. The quality of the competition this year is still much better then 1967.

Lip


Really, if the Sox end up losing this thing, the Twins' collapse will be analogous to the 1967 White Sox, hosting the Royals at home. Of course, the only team to beat the White Sox in about two weeks was the White Sox. Since September 12, they have the best record in the league, probably in baseball.

But going into the five-game losing streak that people call their collapse, the White Sox were in third place, a game out of first.

I think I mentioned the 1973 Mets in Friday's postgame thread. The Mets clinched with their 82nd win on the last day of the season, a cold and rainy Monday in Chicago with the Cardinals losing to make the second game of the doubleheader irrelevant. The Mets, nonetheless took the A's to seven games in the World Series after going back to Oakland with a 3-2 lead.

There is a way to make people feel better about the Sox, and it would start with winning Sunday and Monday.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:54 PM
Maybe he should try to sell them to Twins fans.

Who - by the way - are watching their team play as bad as us...

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 11:55 PM
A lot of things have gone wrong for the Sox this year. If any ONE of them hadn't happened, the Sox would have clinched today.

How about winning just two of these games: one of the home double header games against TOR; one of the six losses during the disastrous May trip to MIN and TOR, one of the three losses in NYY, one of the three losses to COL, one of the three losses when they were swept in DET, the choke-job game in OAK, one of the losses to KC before or after the ASB?

How about Paulie sucking just a little bit less during the first half?

How about Thome sucking just a little bit less in April and May?

How about Swisher not sucking for most of the season?

How about Contreras not tearing his Achilles tendon?

How about Quentin not punching his bat?

Any one of these things happens and the Sox would have clinched tonight.

None of these things were in KW's control.

But not acquiring a reliever at the deadline was completely within KW's control. And for that he deserves scorn.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 11:55 PM
Hawkins has given up just 10 hits and five walks in 20 innings with Houston.

Think that might have helped the Sox bullpen in August and September?

I don't know. It seems stink spreads when it comes to the bullpen. It finally got to Jenks.

EuroSox35
09-27-2008, 11:55 PM
Also, I think we might be better off not even having the out of town scoreboard tomorrow, this team is a huge headcase, they just need to go out and play instead of worrying or being affected by what Minnesota is doing (and it's up to Ozzie to keep them off in the clubhouse as well)

LoveYourSuit
09-27-2008, 11:56 PM
You have no clue what goes on there either.


My source is the newspapers and the media.

That's the only reason why I can speculate.

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:00 AM
A lot of things have gone wrong for the Sox this year. If any ONE of them hadn't happened, the Sox would have clinched today.

How about winning just two of these games: one of the home double header games against TOR; one of the six losses during the disastrous May trip to MIN and TOR, one of the three losses in NYY, one of the three losses to COL, one of the three losses when they were swept in DET, the choke-job game in OAK, one of the losses to KC before or after the ASB?

How about Paulie sucking just a little bit less during the first half?

How about Thome sucking just a little bit less in April and May?

How about Swisher not sucking for most of the season?

How about Contreras not tearing his Achilles tendon?

How about Quentin not punching his bat?

Any one of these things happens and the Sox would have clinched tonight.

None of these things were in KW's control.

But not acquiring a reliever at the deadline was completely within KW's control. And for that he deserves scorn.


So you mention about 10 things and only 1 was within Kenny's control .... but let's pin the season on Kenny.

And the one thing "Kenny is at fault" you are making the huge assumption that people where blowing up Kenny's phone wanting to unload their premier relief arms to him for the crap he had in the farm to offer.

Once again, it takes 2 to make a trade. Either that, or go back to playing Nintendo Baseball Frater. Or join a fantasy league if you want.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-28-2008, 12:01 AM
Who - by the way - are watching their team play as bad as us...

They have lost two in a row, not five.

Woofer
09-28-2008, 12:02 AM
A lot of things have gone wrong for the Sox this year. If any ONE of them hadn't happened, the Sox would have clinched today.

How about winning just two of these games: one of the home double header games against TOR; one of the six losses during the disastrous May trip to MIN and TOR, one of the three losses in NYY, one of the three losses to COL, one of the three losses when they were swept in DET, the choke-job game in OAK, one of the losses to KC before or after the ASB?

How about Paulie sucking just a little bit less during the first half?

How about Thome sucking just a little bit less in April and May?

How about Swisher not sucking for most of the season?

How about Contreras not tearing his Achilles tendon?

How about Quentin not punching his bat?

Any one of these things happens and the Sox would have clinched tonight.

None of these things were in KW's control.

But not acquiring a reliever at the deadline was completely within KW's control. And for that he deserves scorn.

All of this is true, and somewhere Credes back, and Linebrinks arm need to be mentioned.

captain54
09-28-2008, 12:03 AM
No Neck:


It's incredible just to have to be discussing this in the first place but 67 was worse because of WHO the Sox lost to, without question the two worst teams in the league in Kansas City and Washington.

This year the Twins were still a dozen or so games over .500 and the Indians have been a .500 team this year. The quality of the competition this year is still much better then 1967.

Lip

I agree....the Sox were facing two horrible teams in a handful of games to closeout the season....World Series tickets were printed...

Tito Landrum's HR in the 83' ALCS was the one that tore my heart out. We win that game and LaMarr Hoyt, who owned Baltimore, goes the next day

DoItForDanPasqua
09-28-2008, 12:03 AM
All of this is true, and somewhere Credes back, and Linebrinks arm need to be mentioned.

Especially Linebrink's arm. He was a great setup man and shortened the game for the Sox in the first half of the season. That was a huge loss.

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:03 AM
All of this is true, and somewhere Credes back, and Linebrinks arm need to be mentioned.

Pin those on Kenny too.

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:05 AM
They have lost two in a row, not five.


Just like Hawk, on today's telecast he was trying to sell that all was fine because the Twins don't want it as much as we don't.

How quickly he forgot the ass kicking they gave us for 3 straight up at the dome.

We are the ones choking, not them.

DickAllen72
09-28-2008, 12:07 AM
So brace youselves Sox fans.... Javy will get the ball for Game 1 !!!
I'd rather see Richard or Carrasco get the ball than Vazquez in a big game.

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:07 AM
My source is the newspapers and the media.

That's the only reason why I can speculate.

They do that as well.

DSpivack
09-28-2008, 12:07 AM
Just like Hawk, on today's telecast he was trying to sell that all was fine because the Twins don't want it as much as we don't.

How quickly he forgot the ass kicking they gave us for 3 straight up at the dome.

We are the ones choking, not them.

Both of these teams have had plenty of opportunities to take the division in September. Neither has stepped up to the plate, if you will. That's what makes this race so strange to me, it's like neither team wants to win.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2008, 12:08 AM
T-Dog:

Not correct. When the Sox took the field in Kansas City (sitting in second place which is what was more important - check the close of standings for Tuesday, September 26th AND they had two games in hand versus Boston and Detroit and THREE games in hand against Minnesota!) they knew that Minnesota lost to the Angels earlier that afternoon.

They were 1/2 game out with a chance, against an awful team,to sweep and move 1/2 ahead with three games to go.

Things get a lot more complicated from there based on the interviews with a half dozen of said players but this is the short version.

Lip

Woofer
09-28-2008, 12:08 AM
Pin those on Kenny too.

He probably deserves credit for NOT trading away Uribe, although the other Mlb General managers not wanting Uribe either was decisive in him still being on the team.

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:09 AM
I'd rather see Richard or Carrasco get the ball than Vazquez in a big game.


Ozzie does not have it in him to sit out his $12 million veteran.

It will not happen.

jabrch
09-28-2008, 12:09 AM
They have lost two in a row, not five.

Your math is correct - but that changes nothing with respect to the suggestion that someone should sell them tickets to a game in Chicago tomorrow or Monday... *** are you talking about?

TDog
09-28-2008, 12:09 AM
... And the one thing "Kenny is at fault" you are making the huge assumption that people where blowing up Kenny's phone wanting to unload their premier relief arms to him for the crap he had in the farm to offer.

Once again, it takes 2 to make a trade. Either that, or go back to playing Nintendo Baseball Frater. Or join a fantasy league if you want.

We have no idea what the White Sox would have had to give up to acquire a reliever. And we have no idea how many leads said reliever would have lost for the team, facing different hitters, pitching under different conditions. Maybe there is a parallel universe where the White Sox have homefield advantage throughout the postseason, but I don't have access to it and can't channel the moves the White Sox in my universe should have made.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-28-2008, 12:10 AM
Both of these teams have had plenty of opportunities to take the division in September. Neither has stepped up to the plate, if you will. That's what makes this race so strange to me, it's like neither team wants to win.

I think it's more that both teams are in a poor division and really are not that good themselves. I wouldn't say that neither team wants to win. Seattle could want to win more than anyone, but they won't until they get better players.

DSpivack
09-28-2008, 12:11 AM
I think it's more that both teams are in a poor division and really are not that good themselves. I wouldn't say that neither team wants to win. Seattle could want to win more than anyone, but they won't until they get better players.

But haven't these teams played mostly within the division in September? Being mediocre teams is one thing, losing to teams worse than you down the stretch in September is another.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-28-2008, 12:12 AM
Your math is correct - but that changes nothing with respect to the suggestion that someone should sell them tickets to a game in Chicago tomorrow or Monday... *** are you talking about?

Wanting to sell tickets is one thing. Going on the air and talking to us like we are three years old and everything is fine is another. I felt embarrassed for him.

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:12 AM
Who - by the way - are watching their team play as bad as us...

Well they haven't given up double digit scores yet.

BleacherBandit
09-28-2008, 12:13 AM
Well they haven't given up double digit scores yet.

They almost did yesterday.

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:14 AM
But haven't these teams played mostly within the division in September? Being mediocre teams is one thing, losing to teams worse than you down the stretch in September is another.

If the Sox or Twins had played in the AL East this year, I think we are looking at a 95 game loser for both.

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:15 AM
He probably deserves credit for NOT trading away Uribe, although the other Mlb General managers not wanting Uribe either was decisive in him still being on the team.

There was rumors they were going to release him if they couldn't trade him.

ChiSoxFan81
09-28-2008, 12:16 AM
I'd rather see Richard or Carrasco get the ball than Vazquez in a big game.

I couldn't believe they pitched Javy today. Richard or even Broadway would have been better. Not only does Javy choke big time in big games, using him on short rest, and then the rest of the rotation on short rest again, especially after last night's usage of the bullpen, was asinine. And who do they bring in after Javy's collapse anyways? Richard and Broadway. Just unreal.

jabrch
09-28-2008, 12:17 AM
Well they haven't given up double digit scores yet.

What's the significance of a "double digit score"? Not much. A loss is a loss - right?

DSpivack
09-28-2008, 12:18 AM
If the Sox or Twins had played in the AL East this year, I think we are looking at a 95 game loser for both.

That's a bit of hyperbole. I'd say they'd be on par with the Yankees or Blue Jays. Still, either way they wouldn't sniff the playoffs.

jabrch
09-28-2008, 12:18 AM
Wanting to sell tickets is one thing. Going on the air and talking to us like we are three years old and everything is fine is another. I felt embarrassed for him.

You make it sound like we are 20 games out...

DickAllen72
09-28-2008, 12:19 AM
Ozzie does not have it in him to sit out his $12 million veteran.

It will not happen.
I know it won't happen. And if in the unlikely event they do make the playoffs, I'll be rooting for vazquez to shut 'em down.

But I hate seeing Javy pitch in a big game. It's too bad they couldn't set up Buehrle, Floyd and Danks as the three starters in the first round. And although I was just being sarcastic about Carrasco starting over Vazquez, I probably would rather see Richard starting over Javy in a high pressure game like that.

StillMissOzzie
09-28-2008, 12:20 AM
The Astros got Randy Wolf for Chad Reineke, a AAA pitcher with a mid-4 ERA who was drafted in the 13th round in 2004 after three college seasons at Miami of Ohio. Think the Sox have any minor league prospects of that caliber?

The Astros got LaTroy Hawkins and cash for minor league infielder Matt Cusick. Hawkins is 2-0 with a 0.45 ERA with the Astros. You think he could have helped the Sox?

Wolf, I'll give you that one. Hawkins, not so much. The fact that he's an ex-Cub makes him toxic waste, although the way he pitched for the Yanks was much more germaine to the issue.

I don't give a **** what happened with the choker Cubs.

He pitched well for the NL champion Rockies last year in a hitters park. He's pitched well this year in a very Cell-like Minute Maid Park.

Yeah, good for the NL but not so hot in the AL.

No, he wouldn't be as dominant in the AL as he has been in the NL. But I'll bet my left nut he'd be better than Logan, Wassermann or Ramirez.

If he could find his way to USCF, that would be true, but it's not saying too much, and you can add McDougal to that list as well.

C'mon, Sox, just win tomorrow!

SMO
:gulp:

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:26 AM
I think it's more that both teams are in a poor division and really are not that good themselves. I wouldn't say that neither team wants to win. Seattle could want to win more than anyone, but they won't until they get better players.

What has made the Twins good this year is their hitting. They are the best in the majors in hitting with RISP and hitting after 2 outs. Plus it also helps when the 2 guys in the middle of the lineup are batting over .300, one leads the league in RBIs, the other is going for a batting title.
What's the chance of that team having all those happening at once next season?

LoveYourSuit
09-28-2008, 12:28 AM
I couldn't believe they pitched Javy today. Richard or even Broadway would have been better. Not only does Javy choke big time in big games, using him on short rest, and then the rest of the rotation on short rest again, especially after last night's usage of the bullpen, was asinine. And who do they bring in after Javy's collapse anyways? Richard and Broadway. Just unreal.


Another Monday morning QB.

They pitch Richard and he gets lit up .... "What the **** was Ozzie thinking not going with his horses."


Ozzie can't win.

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:30 AM
What's the significance of a "double digit score"? Not much. A loss is a loss - right?

Yes but it sure fosters that dark cloud attitude. It also says your pitching aint worth a ****.

ChiSoxFan81
09-28-2008, 12:32 AM
Another Monday morning QB.

They pitch Richard and he gets lit up .... "What the **** was Ozzie thinking not going with his horses."


Ozzie can't win.

I'm not Monday AM QBing at all. I knew Vazquez was a possiblity, but they weren't decided for sure until today. I had a feeling they'd throw him. I was holding out hope since they were undecided yesterday that they'd change their minds. If they throw one of the rookies and he gets lit up, oh well. Even IF we do make the playoffs at this point, our pitching will be in shambles because of this decision. Besides, we already saw the other day what Javy does, and always has done in big games. We knew this was coming.

jabrch
09-28-2008, 12:35 AM
Yes but it sure fosters that dark cloud attitude. It also says your pitching aint worth a ****.

Which has what to do with your statement that Boyer should try to sell tickets to Sunday, Monday and maybe Tuesday to Twins fans?

The Dark Cloud attitude is up to each individual. I don't get it - with a team still in the hunt with 2 (3) games left. But that's your choice. How the heck would you expect the VP of marketing to not be marketing his last revenue opportunities?

DSpivack
09-28-2008, 12:37 AM
What has made the Twins good this year is their hitting. They are the best in the majors in hitting with RISP and hitting after 2 outs. Plus it also helps when the 2 guys in the middle of the lineup are batting over .300, one leads the league in RBIs, the other is going for a batting title.
What's the chance of that team having all those happening at once next season?

Don't forget that they've had 5 very solid SPs all year round. Baker, Blackburn, Slowey & Perkins have all been good down the stretch, and Liriano has been a big improvement on Livan.

kitekrazy
09-28-2008, 12:39 AM
I'm not Monday AM QBing at all. I knew Vazquez was a possiblity, but they weren't decided for sure until today. I had a feeling they'd throw him. I was holding out hope since they were undecided yesterday that they'd change their minds. If they throw one of the rookies and he gets lit up, oh well. Even IF we do make the playoffs at this point, our pitching will be in shambles because of this decision. Besides, we already saw the other day what Javy does, and always has done in big games. We knew this was coming.

There was a stretch where Javi was pitching great but the famine hitting showed up. The pitching staff is put in this position because of the many, many squandered opportunities.
Ozzie doesn't have the luxury off using the rest of the season to manage for the post season.

I think every manager in this situation goes with Javi before Richard. We're too quick to give this kid a Cy Young because he pitched well against the Yankees.

JB98
09-28-2008, 12:40 AM
The trip home from the Cell seemed a little bit longer than usual tonight. My heart is just filled with despair after watching this game. I mean, this isn't about the Twins or what they've done. In fact, the Twins suck. They can't even beat the Royals at home.

This is about the Sox and what they've done to themselves. If they miss the playoffs, this is basically a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. These guys are too busy pointing fingers at each other to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. They've stopped playing for each other, and that is sad.

I don't know what was said between AJ and Vazquez, but whatever it was, both Cabrera and Uribe reacted right away to get in there and break it up. We just can't have that kind of stuff on the field. Win or lose, we have to do it together.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2008, 12:44 AM
I don't know what was said between AJ and Vazquez, but whatever it was, both Cabrera and Uribe reacted right away to get in there and break it up. We just can't have that kind of stuff on the field. Win or lose, we have to do it together.

What inning was this? I could have sworn I saw AJ pat Javy on the shoulder with Javy reciprocating. Unless it wasn't a pat.

Britt Burns
09-28-2008, 12:45 AM
I am so sick that I just don't know what to say. This is the complete opposite of the '05 playoff run, where we did everything right. This team can't do squat right, day in and day out.

JB98
09-28-2008, 12:51 AM
What inning was this? I could have sworn I saw AJ pat Javy on the shoulder with Javy reciprocating. Unless it wasn't a pat.

Fifth inning, right after Cabrera hit the bases-clearing double for Cleveland. AJ was just furious with Vazquez, and Javy was barking right back at him.

jabrch
09-28-2008, 12:53 AM
I am so sick that I just don't know what to say. This is the complete opposite of the '05 playoff run, where we did everything right. This team can't do squat right, day in and day out.

Britt - isn't this nearly the same as the Sox run? In September, we just barely avoided coughing up the lead to the Tribe.

ChiSoxGirl
09-28-2008, 12:56 AM
Another big game, another Vazquez meltdown. What new? Water is wet and the sky is blue. I've had it with this guy and his 126-129 career record. Seriously Javy, why the hell couldn't you just man up and pitch like the game actually meant something? Oh wait a minute, IT DID!!!!

To me, tonight's game was a mirror image of last night's- not the best outing from the starter, a bullpen implosion, a big fifth inning for the Indians- promptly sucking the life right out of the ballpark, and a Sox team that wouldn't give up, but came up short. Man, to hell with this team! :angry:

This is the biggest implosion/collapse in my nearly twenty years as a Sox fan. I'm going to the game tomorrow, not because I have faith in them and think they can win the division (or even the game tomorrow- not because of Buehrle, of course), but because I love baseball and have to say goodbye to my summer hangout for six months. It just wouldn't be right for me to pass up on my invitation to go tomorrow.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2008, 12:58 AM
Fifth inning, right after Cabrera hit the bases-clearing double for Cleveland. AJ was just furious with Vazquez, and Javy was barking right back at him.

Thanks, I think I had looked away in disgust when it first aired, so I missed the exchange. I took a look at it again and yeah, swear words were probably exchanged. But I think they patted each other later on in the dugout, so things are okay between them - or as okay as they can be.

Vernam
09-28-2008, 01:04 AM
I don't know what was said between AJ and Vazquez, but whatever it was, both Cabrera and Uribe reacted right away to get in there and break it up. We just can't have that kind of stuff on the field. Win or lose, we have to do it together.On TV, you could see Javi say, "**** you" to AJ. After the inning ended, WGN showed a clip of them in the dugout patting each other in a friendly way. I bet it was just one of those dustups that doesn't signify a bigger problem. Or so I hope.

Was at the game yesterday and today, will be there tomorrow, Monday, and Tuesday if that what it comes to. I'm not going to blow smoke, because this has been a miserable stretch of baseball. It does suddenly seem very reminiscent of the death march of 2005 before they clinched the division. The 2008 Sox are nowhere near as good, and the 2008 Twins sure as hell aren't the 2005 Indians. But at these games, you're just waiting for that moment when all the bad vibes will melt away. Kind of like the HR that Crede hit off Riske (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050920soxgamer,0,1522642.story) in the 10th inning just over three years ago. Hold the good thought . . .

To say our starting pitchers are completely gassed is an understatement. Sure, even if we win the division, the odds are steep that we won't get past the first round. And I'm not saying these games have been fun to watch. Not even close. But it's a kooky end of the season. If they wind up playing through Tuesday, it's something I'll tell my grandkids about someday. Hopefully, it'll be because the Sox got it done despite all the weirdness. If they don't, I'll have all winter to ponder what went wrong. It'll be easier to ask what didn't.

Vernam

JB98
09-28-2008, 01:06 AM
Thanks, I think I had looked away in disgust when it first aired, so I missed the exchange. I took a look at it again and yeah, swear words were probably exchanged. But I think they patted each other later on in the dugout, so things are okay between them - or as okay as they can be.

I was really disappointed in AJ. Vazquez made a terrible pitch, a big mistake, no question. But after that, our catcher needs to go to the mound and tell our pitcher to put that mistake behind him, get the next hitter out and keep the club in the game. 4-1 in the fifth is hardly an insurmountable deficit. Instead, it just blew up out there.

AJ should have told Javy, "Don't worry. We'll come back." That's the attitude that was needed in that situation.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2008, 01:10 AM
I was really disappointed in AJ. Vazquez made a terrible pitch, a big mistake, no question. But after that, our catcher needs to go to the mound and tell our pitcher to put that mistake behind him, get the next hitter out and keep the club in the game. 4-1 in the fifth is hardly an insurmountable deficit. Instead, it just blew up out there.

AJ should have told Javy, "Don't worry. We'll come back." That's the attitude that was needed in that situation.

I'm of two minds on that one. On the one hand, it's the third straight start or so when Javy's gotten lit up. Plus, they are on a huge losing streak and have the chance to regain the lead. I'm sure AJ's as frustrated as all of them.

However, you definitely have a point - Javy's enough of a headcase that he needs to know he's got his catcher's support. They did give each other a friendly pat later, but it was too late.

JB98
09-28-2008, 01:18 AM
I'm of two minds on that one. On the one hand, it's the third straight start or so when Javy's gotten lit up. Plus, they are on a huge losing streak and have the chance to regain the lead. I'm sure AJ's as frustrated as all of them.

However, you definitely have a point - Javy's enough of a headcase that he needs to know he's got his catcher's support. They did give each other a friendly pat later, but it was too late.

They're grown men, so I'm sure they'll patch it up if they haven't done so already. But the damage is done.