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View Full Version : History Repeats Itself?


Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Some of you might remember the "urban legend" from 2003. The story about a Sox player on first base supposedly telling Doug Mientkiewicz of the Twins, "congratulations on winning the division."

This supposedly happened early in the decisive three game series when nothing was determined in Minnesota. I've never seen any factual documentation of this and many at the time were saying the Sox player was Carl Everett (which I find really hard to believe...)

According to this though something like this DID take place last night. Keep in mind the player saying this was Justin Morneau who absolutely hates and loaths the White Sox organization.

But it is interesting all the same.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/1186538,CST-SPT-deluca26.article

Lip

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 10:40 AM
I've had it with Cabrera. It sounds like he's setting himself up to dart out of here as fast as he can and make the Sox look bad while doing it.

In my eyes, he can't leave fast enough.

ChiSoxFan81
09-26-2008, 10:41 AM
While I can easily see the Twins concocting such a story to jab at the White Sox, I can also see that selfish bastard Cabrera doing such a thing. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he signed with the Twins next year. I'm not going to be upset to see that piece of crap gone.

hi im skot
09-26-2008, 10:45 AM
According to this though something like this DID take place last night. Keep in mind the player saying this was Justin Morneau who absolutely hates and loaths the White Sox organization.




A lot of Sox players seem to think he's a good guy. :shrug:

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 10:47 AM
Dude:

He was ready to leave back in May when he told the newspapers how much he missed the Angels organization.

Lip

munchman33
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
Dude:

He was ready to leave back in May when he told the newspapers how much he missed the Angels organization.

Lip

If I played in that organization and got traded here, I'd probably want to go back too.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 10:51 AM
Can you blame the guy? I don't get all this hatred for Cabrera. Yes, the pressbox/error thing was wrong. But clearly Ozzie or our beloved captain konerko isn't lighting a fire under this team, can you really blame orlando for trying? he's been seeing this crap all year and finally got fed up and spoke out, at this point, it was worth a shot. I don't blame him a bit for wanting to get out of town, this team is going nowhere fast next year as currently constructed. the old guys we are stuck with are just getting older.

thomas35forever
09-26-2008, 11:02 AM
The same thing happened to me last night. One of the Score producers who I'm friends with sent me an I/M during the game last night saying "congrats on winning the division" or something like that." Oh yeah, and he's a Cubs fan. Blame him too.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 11:13 AM
Sox Fan 43:

The timing was wrong. Like Ozzie said, he decides to say this now with five games left?

Where was this in the spring when the offense couldn't hit the ball off a tee?

Or how about in August when things started to go south?

I'm not saying he's wrong for what he said either. I think he's dead right, but this seems self serving like he's trying to project the impression about how much of a leader he is to help his pending free agency.

Lip

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-26-2008, 11:14 AM
Can you blame the guy? I don't get all this hatred for Cabrera. Yes, the pressbox/error thing was wrong. But clearly Ozzie or our beloved captain konerko isn't lighting a fire under this team, can you really blame orlando for trying? he's been seeing this crap all year and finally got fed up and spoke out, at this point, it was worth a shot. I don't blame him a bit for wanting to get out of town, this team is going nowhere fast next year as currently constructed. the old guys we are stuck with are just getting older.

I agree. I think Cabrera is overrated both defensively and offensively, but for a slightly above average SS he is decent. I don't see what he did wrong here, though. Maybe he hasn't been a team leader up to this point, but somebody sure as **** needs to step up. And what does Ozzie do? He cuts him down, tells him to shut up. Ozzie can't stand to have somebody competing for his spotlight. He's the only one that's allowed to call people out, or as Kenny would say, throw them under the bus.

And even if he did agree with Morneau that the Twins don't give up and play hard, what's the big deal with that? It's true. The White Sox, on the other hand ...

I think the situation here with Cabrera is probably similar to what unfolded with AJ in San Fransisco. He felt comfortable with his old team, and was used to a certain level of energy in the clubhouse. Then he gets traded, whether he wants to or not, and the veterans on the new team don't seem to have any energy. When they start losing at the end of the season and their playoff hopes are disappearing rapidly, he gets frustrated and tries to stir things up. This is not received well, because he was never fully accepted to begin with, so people get angry with him.

I'm not saying that Cabrera is a great guy, or that we should keep him (I hope we don't), but that his actions aren't that bad. I think the whole team is falling apart and this is just one outcropping of the inner turmoil.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 11:15 AM
Dude:

He was ready to leave back in May when he told the newspapers how much he missed the Angels organization.

Lip

Definitely. That team is consistently near the top, has a good mix of old and young players, with plenty more on their way. Not to mention the weather.

Over By There
09-26-2008, 11:18 AM
If I played in that organization and got traded here, I'd probably want to go back too.

I bet the Angels boards would love to have your perspective. You're just eating this all up, aren't you. :rolleyes:

munchman33
09-26-2008, 11:38 AM
I bet the Angels boards would love to have your perspective. You're just eating this all up, aren't you. :rolleyes:

Not really. I prefer being the outsider. Right now everyone sounds like me. :tongue:

Nobody is enjoying this. We traded it all in for one last shot in the dark, actually had a chance at it, and then pissed it away. And now we're stuck with the reality of a really old, really expensive team with little depth or talent in it's lower levels. We could have an epically bad stretch these next few years if the chairman doesn't decide to add lots of payroll this offseason.

sunofgold
09-26-2008, 11:45 AM
We swept the Indians in 2005 to end the season. Also, we have swept both home series against the Indians this year. Let's hope that we continue to have their number at home and at the end of the season.

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 11:58 AM
I agree. I think Cabrera is overrated both defensively and offensively, but for a slightly above average SS he is decent. I don't see what he did wrong here, though. Maybe he hasn't been a team leader up to this point, but somebody sure as **** needs to step up. And what does Ozzie do? He cuts him down, tells him to shut up. Ozzie can't stand to have somebody competing for his spotlight. He's the only one that's allowed to call people out, or as Kenny would say, throw them under the bus.

And even if he did agree with Morneau that the Twins don't give up and play hard, what's the big deal with that? It's true. The White Sox, on the other hand ...

I think the situation here with Cabrera is probably similar to what unfolded with AJ in San Fransisco. He felt comfortable with his old team, and was used to a certain level of energy in the clubhouse. Then he gets traded, whether he wants to or not, and the veterans on the new team don't seem to have any energy. When they start losing at the end of the season and their playoff hopes are disappearing rapidly, he gets frustrated and tries to stir things up. This is not received well, because he was never fully accepted to begin with, so people get angry with him.

I'm not saying that Cabrera is a great guy, or that we should keep him (I hope we don't), but that his actions aren't that bad. I think the whole team is falling apart and this is just one outcropping of the inner turmoil.

I don't think it's a good idea to further fire up a charging team. Then after the game says he can't recall the conversation? How is that leadership? Ozzie had a conversation at the beginning of the year with him asking him to be more of a leader. He waits until the final two weeks to start spouting off to media members about how nobody cares? Theres a difference between calling out teamates and telling everyone that nobody wants to win.

AJ was interviewed on AM1000 Wednesday and to sum it up he diplomatically said that Orlando really isn't close with his teamates and 24 other guys disagree with what he said. This doesn't exactly sound like people are rallying around him. It sounds selfish to me.

I was very excited when the Sox acquired him, but he has been a disappointment. I can see why he will be moving on to his 5th team next year. I always found it odd why Boston finally found a SS and had the money to sign him, but didn't.

nccwsfan
09-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Can you blame the guy? I don't get all this hatred for Cabrera. Yes, the pressbox/error thing was wrong. But clearly Ozzie or our beloved captain konerko isn't lighting a fire under this team, can you really blame orlando for trying? he's been seeing this crap all year and finally got fed up and spoke out, at this point, it was worth a shot. I don't blame him a bit for wanting to get out of town, this team is going nowhere fast next year as currently constructed. the old guys we are stuck with are just getting older.

In Orlando Cabrera's world:
Cabrera > The Team

Lip is right- he's wanted out of here for most of the year and was a hired hand at best. Thanks for 2008 and good luck elsewhere.

HangWiffum
09-26-2008, 12:14 PM
what's so different between what cabrera did and the lavish praise ozzie tosses on twins every year?

NoNeckEra
09-26-2008, 12:21 PM
In Orlando Cabrera's world:
Cabrera > The Team

Lip is right- he's wanted out of here for most of the year and was a hired hand at best. Thanks for 2008 and good luck elsewhere.
He's not the first, nor will he be the last to talk himself out of the Sox organization. That being said, he's the last guy I'd blame for this disaster.

But let's insert some realism into the equation: Both the Sox and Twins are 11 under on the road. That's not worthy of the playoffs. Either will go quietly in the ALDS.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-26-2008, 12:22 PM
what's so different between what cabrera did and the lavish praise ozzie tosses on twins every year?

Exactly. I'm no Cabrera fan, but Ozzie praises the Twinkies and attacks his own players. Cabrera does the same thing, and Ozzie can't tolerate it. And all he said was they needed more hustle. Is there anyone here who thinks the White Sox have enough hustle?

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2008, 12:32 PM
Not really. I prefer being the outsider. Right now everyone sounds like me. No, everyone does not sound like you.

We traded it all in for one last shot in the dark ...Nicely mixed metaphor.

We could have an epically bad stretch these next few years if the chairman doesn't decide to add lots of payroll this offseason.Yeah, that's the only way; add payroll. That's how the Twins did it. That's how the Rays did it.

Exactly. I'm no Cabrera fan, but Ozzie praises the Twinkies and attacks his own players. Cabrera does the same thing, and Ozzie can't tolerate it. And all he said was they needed more hustle. Is there anyone here who thinks the White Sox have enough hustle?The point is, you don't come in as a first-year player with a team, show that your main concern is yourself, play an essentially mediocre season, and then go pontificating to the press about how the other players on the team should be behaving. He's just pissed because winning a championship would have increased his value on the free-agent market.

It's part of the manager's job to talk to the press about the team's performance, not Cabrera's.

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 12:38 PM
Exactly. I'm no Cabrera fan, but Ozzie praises the Twinkies and attacks his own players. Cabrera does the same thing, and Ozzie can't tolerate it. And all he said was they needed more hustle. Is there anyone here who thinks the White Sox have enough hustle?

Your wrong. You really need to go read and listen to his interviews. He essentially said that the guys on the team don't go out to win and they quit when the other team gets a lead. There's a big difference. That's like calling your teamates losers.

If all he said was people need to hustle more, nobody would have a problem with it.

Instead, now there are bull**** clubhouse issue's with a huge weekend series coming up. Great leadership. That type of stuff really sits well with veteran players.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 12:41 PM
No, everyone does not sound like you.

Nicely mixed metaphor.

Yeah, that's the only way; add payroll. That's how the Twins did it. That's how the Rays did it.

The point is, you don't come in as a first-year player with a team, show that your main concern is yourself, play an essentially mediocre season, and then go pontificating to the press about how the other players on the team should be behaving. He's just pissed because winning a championship would have increased his value on the free-agent market.

It's part of the manager's job to talk to the press about the team's performance, not Cabrera's.

Well when you have a garbage farm system, there aren't many other options to improve your team quickly.

Fenway
09-26-2008, 12:45 PM
Cabrera wore out his welcome in Boston in only 3 months in 2004.

For whatever reason even though he played very well the Red Sox just gave him his ring and made no effort to resign him. He then had issues in Anaheim as well and previously had problems in Montreal.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 12:49 PM
Cabrera wore out his welcome in Boston in only 3 months in 2004.

For whatever reason even though he played very well the Red Sox just gave him his ring and made no effort to resign him. He then had issues in Anaheim as well and previously had problems in Montreal.


Fenway, can you be more specific on why boston made no effort? Where there any specific instances of Cabrera pissing off teammates? My buddy in the next cube over is a BoSox fan, and he can't remember anything.

khan
09-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Your wrong. You really need to go read and listen to his interviews. He essentially said that the guys on the team don't go out to win and they quit when the other team gets a lead. There's a big difference. That's like calling your teamates losers.
Like him or not, I happen to agree with what he was saying. At least he's pointing out the obvious, though the timing was poor on his part.

Instead, now there are bull**** clubhouse issue's with a huge weekend series coming up. Great leadership. That type of stuff really sits well with veteran players.

And where has the "great leadership" been from paul konerko? Where has HE been all this year? All I've seen him do is mumble how the team just "needs to try to get it done tomorrow" or some other **** like that.

The stupid antics in the clubhouse, the incessant appearances on TV and radio by AJ, Swisher, and others, Cabrera's comments, and konerko's lack thereof all show that this team has no leader on it. No one who is both good enough and vocal enough to have a collective positive effect on his team mates in this roster.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Like him or not, I happen to agree with what he was saying. At least he's pointing out the obvious, though the timing was poor on his part.



And where has the "great leadership" been from paul konerko? Where has HE been all this year? All I've seen him do is mumble how the team just "needs to try to get it done tomorrow" or some other **** like that.

The stupid antics in the clubhouse, the incessant appearances on TV and radio by AJ, Swisher, and others, Cabrera's comments, and konerko's lack thereof all show that this team has no leader on it. No one who is both good enough and vocal enough to have a collective positive effect on his team mates in this roster.

Anyone catch the new Survivor last night? One of the guys on there was sorta voted to be a tribe leader despite not really wanting the job, I couldn't help but think he reminded me of Konerko. The guy is not a leader, that is clear. There is no leader on this team and they are falling apart. I know with Ozzie around it's probably difficult to find a leader, but its clear this team needs one.

Fenway
09-26-2008, 01:19 PM
Fenway, can you be more specific on why boston made no effort? Where there any specific instances of Cabrera pissing off teammates? My buddy in the next cube over is a BoSox fan, and he can't remember anything.

All I know is there were some off the field issues that made the front office uncomfortable.

Francona is very good at keeping dirty laundry in-house which is pretty hard to do given the New England media.

When they made the Nomar trade they planned on him being the shortstop long term but something made them look elsewhere.

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 01:57 PM
Like him or not, I happen to agree with what he was saying. At least he's pointing out the obvious, though the timing was poor on his part.



And where has the "great leadership" been from paul konerko? Where has HE been all this year? All I've seen him do is mumble how the team just "needs to try to get it done tomorrow" or some other **** like that.

The stupid antics in the clubhouse, the incessant appearances on TV and radio by AJ, Swisher, and others, Cabrera's comments, and konerko's lack thereof all show that this team has no leader on it. No one who is both good enough and vocal enough to have a collective positive effect on his team mates in this roster.

How Konerko deals with the press doesn't reflect his leadership in the clubhouse and in the dugout. They made him a captain because he has shown leadership in the past and represents the organization well. He is a competitor. Just because he doesn't call teamates out in the media doesn't mean he isn't showing leadership. Quiet leadership can also be very effective. If you want to call out Konerko's play, that is fine. He hasn't stepped up lately, but he gets along well with his teamates and nobody has ever uttered one bad thing about him as a teamate or a leader.

That is the complete opposite of Cabrera. Who seems to wear out his welcome fast wherever he goes.

The Red Sox let him go after initially wanting him to be there long term solution, the Angels traded him after one of his most productive seasons, and the Sox wanted to talk extension when they traded for him and that has apparently changed. I see a pattern developing here. But, blame it on Konerko because he likes to keep things in house instead of shouting to the media.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 02:00 PM
Yeah, that's the only way; add payroll. That's how the Twins did it. That's how the Rays did it.


I'm guessing you're not versed in the developmental philosophies this organization uses at the minor league level, as well as the lack of talent there. Because your comment makes no sense unless you're talking about fours years from now.

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2008, 02:13 PM
I'm guessing you're not versed in the developmental philosophies this organization uses at the minor league level, as well as the lack of talent there. Because your comment makes no sense unless you're talking about fours years from now.Don't tell me what I am and am not versed in. Your expertise has been well demonstrated.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 02:20 PM
Don't tell me what I am and am not versed in. Your expertise has been well demonstrated.

I'm not the one expecting us to magically become the Twins or Rays next year.

We don't have a ton of talent to trade or bring up. We've got one way to improve, and that's spend.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:21 PM
Your wrong. You really need to go read and listen to his interviews. He essentially said that the guys on the team don't go out to win and they quit when the other team gets a lead. There's a big difference. That's like calling your teamates losers.

If all he said was people need to hustle more, nobody would have a problem with it.

Instead, now there are bull**** clubhouse issue's with a huge weekend series coming up. Great leadership. That type of stuff really sits well with veteran players.

I don't necessarily disagree with what Cabrera said, but the problem is he doesn't have enough street cred in the locker room to be making those types of comments.

He's in his first (and probably only) year with the team. And it's not like he's an All-Star or something. He's just a guy who was acquired as a stopgap.

If Konerko or Buehrle or AJ had made the exact same comments, I believe each man on the team would have listened and at least considered that there might be some truth to them. But with OC, I think the other guys on the team just thought to themselves, "He can shut the **** up anytime now."

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2008, 02:21 PM
I'm not the one expecting us to magically become the Twins or Rays next year.No, you're the one who has already voted Fautino De Los Santos into the Hall of Fame.

gobears1987
09-26-2008, 02:26 PM
Dude:

He was ready to leave back in May when he told the newspapers how much he missed the Angels organization.

Lip
And Rowand said the same thing about the Sox when in Philly.

(I didn't mean to mention his name and open up a can of worms)

munchman33
09-26-2008, 02:29 PM
No, you're the one who has already voted Fautino De Los Santos into the Hall of Fame.

I did qualify it by saying "if he doesn't get injured." So as stupid as a lot of people think I am for saying it, the scenerio will never have a chance to get played out.

Back to the topic....How do we improve next year? We have little depth to trade with. Kenny might be able to swing one trade. But there's no help on the horizon from the minors. We need a starting middle infielder, starting third baseman (Fields is not that person, at least not enough yet to give him the job), another starting pitcher, a starting CF, and at least one more bullpen arm.

That's a lot of money to spend. I'm not saying JR won't spend it, I'm just saying it's not going to be easy to right this ship.

whitesox901
09-26-2008, 02:46 PM
Justin Morneau who absolutely hates and loaths the White Sox organization.

Why is that anyway? Reinsdorf run over his cat or something? :scratch:

EuroSox35
09-26-2008, 03:01 PM
I actually like Cabrera, and think what he said on the radio was appropriate and correct, but man can he be a moron on that baseball field. Just the steal attempts alone, doing the same thing to Dye more than once even after they had a fight over it, stealing third with 2 outs multiple times, sure, it worked last night, but it's not the smartest play in the world.

Eddo144
09-26-2008, 03:02 PM
Well when you have a garbage farm system, there aren't many other options to improve your team quickly.
The Twins and Rays built up their farm systems by having top draft picks (Mauer, Young, Longonria, Upton) and trading away some of their most productive players at their peaks (Santana, Pierzynski). You really want the Sox to take that approach?

For the Sox to get to the current state of Tampa and Minnesota, they'd have to (a) finish in fourth or fifth place for 3+ seasons and (b) trade Konerko, Dye, Buehrle, and possibly Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, and Floyd in the next 5 years.

EuroSox35
09-26-2008, 03:03 PM
All I know is there were some off the field issues that made the front office uncomfortable.

Francona is very good at keeping dirty laundry in-house which is pretty hard to do given the New England media.

When they made the Nomar trade they planned on him being the shortstop long term but something made them look elsewhere.

This was brought up when we traded for him, even an outsider can start to get the idea, when a guy is heralded for clubhouse/leader qualities, but can't stay on a team, you start to get the picture...

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Anyone read the Outside the Lines article on the bonus skimming scandal? Dave Wilders scheme was apparently getting scouts to drastically overstate the talent of a player so they could get a bigger bonus and he could skim more off the top. Anyone else think that this could be a big factor in the state of our farm system? He wasn't scouting guys he thought could make it to the bigs, he was trying to make money. So in theory our farm system is probably filled with guys who the club thought were solid prospects, but in turn really were not. Interesting read though, whether you agree with my idea or think I'm an idiot.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3609833&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

veeter
09-26-2008, 06:26 PM
Not really. I prefer being the outsider. Right now everyone sounds like me. :tongue:

Nobody is enjoying this. We traded it all in for one last shot in the dark, actually had a chance at it, and then pissed it away. And now we're stuck with the reality of a really old, really expensive team with little depth or talent in it's lower levels. We could have an epically bad stretch these next few years if the chairman doesn't decide to add lots of payroll this offseason.I thought the Sox were supposed to be epically bad this year. There they go contending again.

veeter
09-26-2008, 06:27 PM
I did qualify it by saying "if he doesn't get injured." So as stupid as a lot of people think I am for saying it, the scenerio will never have a chance to get played out.

Back to the topic....How do we improve next year? We have little depth to trade with. Kenny might be able to swing one trade. But there's no help on the horizon from the minors. We need a starting middle infielder, starting third baseman (Fields is not that person, at least not enough yet to give him the job), another starting pitcher, a starting CF, and at least one more bullpen arm.

That's a lot of money to spend. I'm not saying JR won't spend it, I'm just saying it's not going to be easy to right this ship.Gordon Beckham IS the horizon. He'll help very soon.