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SpartanSoxFan
09-26-2008, 09:32 AM
Anyone listen to Mulley and Hanley this morning on The Score? They talked to the Sun-Times' Sox beat writer Joe Cowley who had some telling comentary on Swisher. Basically, he described how everyone got the impression that even when things were going bad, Swisher would always be the happy-go-lucky, clowning around, good guy in the clubhouse. However, he has now isolated himself in the clubhouse and its very apparent he is unhappy with his current situation with the Sox. Whether he is unhappy with his poor performance, management, teammates, Ozzie, or a combination of all of them is undetermined. Cowley and Mulley even mentioned it will be likely that Swisher will request to be moved within the year.

If this is true, Nick, go ahead and request to be moved. You WON'T be missed at all. Don't let the door hit you on your overrated ass on the way out.

ChiSoxFan81
09-26-2008, 09:36 AM
If he's upset that he isn't getting any playing time, he has no one to blame but himself. He is NOT the player we thought we were getting. Aside from a couple moments, he's been awful. Trading for Griffey should have lit a fire under his ass, but he's continued to struggle. What does he think he'd be doing out there to help the cause? Striking out looking? I think Thome has that act down already.

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 09:42 AM
I think he is eaten up by not playing. Swish seems like a guy who is always all about team. Nothing has changed my mind now that he's been benched in a tight pennant race. I don't think he's sulking. I think he's very frustrated and doesn't want to have that rub off on the rest of the team.

Funny that the two guys who have clearly been the leaders of the clubhouse all year, OC and Swish are now all but guaranteed to be gone ASAP.

It's OG's world, the rest of us are just living in it...

PatK
09-26-2008, 09:42 AM
As much as I don't want to excuse his performance, the Sox had way too many expectations on him.

He is not a center fielder or a leadoff man, and he was expected to do both.

Law11
09-26-2008, 09:43 AM
I heard that this morning too. Along with the comments from OC. Seems to be some real disention brewing in the clubhouse by various guys.

I heard AJ on MJH yesterday talking how he doesnt care what OC says. That OC doesnt hang out with Konerko, AJ, Thome, Crede and shouldnt speak as to how they come out ready for a game.

OC is a cancer and needs to be kicked to the curb. He comes off like some authority on winning when hes a piece of garbage that was shown the door after 3 months in Boston.

Swisher, I really wanted to like this guy but he's been a huge dissapointment.
Kenny cant get every deal to work out and this is one of those.

JUribe1989
09-26-2008, 09:44 AM
Swisher never fit in with this team. Somehow, he had an OBP constantly 140 points higher than his average. He rarely ever swung the bat, just tried to look for walks. The Sox have historically been a low-key professional team and Swisher doesn't fit in with that.

If he wants to sulk around he has no one to blame, but himself. He's the terrible hitter. The Sox are probably just stuck with him now. I can't see how any team would be willing to take him.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 09:45 AM
Ok, i'm a little biased here, because i happen to like Nick Swisher a lot. And granted the guy just has NOT been getting it done lately.

However, how many times did D Wise get on base against MN? I think the answer that you're looking for his once - by a walk. So, how is he playing any better than Swisher?

Furthermore, it's pretty obvious that Dye and Konerko could use some rest, but stubborn old Ozzie doesn't want to give Nick a chance. (see Anderson, Brian).

And you can't really back it up by saying Swisher 'struck out' because anyone who watched the game knows that one of several really, bad calls made by the umps.

ChiSoxFan81
09-26-2008, 09:47 AM
Swisher never fit in with this team. Somehow, he had an OBP constantly 140 points higher than his average. He rarely ever swung the bat, just tried to look for walks. The Sox have historically been a low-key professional team and Swisher doesn't fit in with that.

If he wants to sulk around he has no one to blame, but himself. He's the terrible hitter. The Sox are probably just stuck with him now. I can't see how any team would be willing to take him.


You're signature is dead on. :D:

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 09:47 AM
What is Swisher's reasoning for being mad? He sucked all year plain and simple. If he can't understand that, he shouldn't be playing professional sports. And I love how all the Sox players are so quick to dismiss Orlando and his comments, despite those comments probably being dead on. This team is making me sick.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 09:47 AM
Dear Mr. Swisher,

I'm sorry things didn't work out for you with this whole "baseball" thing. I wish you well in your career endeavors after baseball. Now get the **** out.

Sincerely,

Munchman33

PatK
09-26-2008, 09:49 AM
ouch@ munchman33

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 09:50 AM
Actually Swisher has a very reasonable deal for a few more years. The Sox would probably get a number of interested teams if that's what they choose to do.

Lip

munchman33
09-26-2008, 09:52 AM
Actually Swisher has a very reasonable deal for a few more years. The Sox would probably get a number of interested teams if that's what they choose to do.

Lip

It's reasonable if another GM thinks he'll produce. But Bill Bavasi's out of a job, so there's really nowhere else to send him.

Law11
09-26-2008, 09:54 AM
It's reasonable if another GM thinks he'll produce. But Bill Bavasi's out of a job, so there's really nowhere else to send him.

Unless Matt Millen gets into baseball...

btrain929
09-26-2008, 09:57 AM
This is all Joe Cowley's opinion. HE THINKS Swisher will ask for a trade. HE THINKS he wants out. I don't believe him for a second. Swisher has to realize how poor of a season he's had and take that into the offseason to better himself.

As a team, we're not going to buy extremely high, then sell extremely low on Swisher. He is going nowhere. We just have to hope he comes back next year with a vengeance.

oeo
09-26-2008, 09:57 AM
I think he is eaten up by not playing. Swish seems like a guy who is always all about team. Nothing has changed my mind now that he's been benched in a tight pennant race. I don't think he's sulking. I think he's very frustrated and doesn't want to have that rub off on the rest of the team.

Funny that the two guys who have clearly been the leaders of the clubhouse all year, OC and Swish are now all but guaranteed to be gone ASAP.

It's OG's world, the rest of us are just living in it...

I'm really losing a lot of respect for you today. Ozzie's been put in a tough situation. We've had so many guys that have struggled this year, that Kenny went out and got Junior to try to help get things going. Junior then struggled, as well. So Ozzie's got 2-4 guys that he needs to keep happy, when none of them are playing well. Sorry, somebody's got to lose...earlier this year it was Paulie, and he had a bit of a similar attitude. It's not necessarily that they're fuming, it's just that they're competitors and want to be out there helping their team.

I've defended Swisher, and I will continue to, but Wise was the hot hand. I said he should have been playing this series before it started, and I stick by that. I'm not going to change my mind because things didn't work out.

I really wouldn't read much into this all, anyway. Dye was reportedly doing the same 'sulking' last year, then a few weeks later he signed an extension. If it's frustrating for Swisher, Konerko earlier this year, etc., then you shouldn't have played so damn poorly in the first half that we needed to bring in another bat.

Red Barchetta
09-26-2008, 09:59 AM
I heard that this morning too. Along with the comments from OC. Seems to be some real disention brewing in the clubhouse by various guys.

I heard AJ on MJH yesterday talking how he doesnt care what OC says. That OC doesnt hang out with Konerko, AJ, Thome, Crede and shouldnt speak as to how they come out ready for a game.

OC is a cancer and needs to be kicked to the curb. He comes off like some authority on winning when hes a piece of garbage that was shown the door after 3 months in Boston.

Swisher, I really wanted to like this guy but he's been a huge dissapointment.
Kenny cant get every deal to work out and this is one of those.

That's true. Hunter was Plan A - Y. Swisher was Kenny's plan Z.

Flight #24
09-26-2008, 10:02 AM
I heard AJ on MJH yesterday talking how he doesnt care what OC says. That OC doesnt hang out with Konerko, AJ, Thome, Crede and shouldnt speak as to how they come out ready for a game.


Yet Cabrera's been a winner in other places, while the Sox under Paulie/Thome/AJ/Crede have generally underachieved and choked. Maybe, just maybe what these guys do to "come out ready" isn't all it's cracked up to be? They certainly weren't ready for anything but crap the past few games (and realistically, longer or they wouldn't have needed the last 3 games).

oeo
09-26-2008, 10:04 AM
Yet Cabrera's been a winner in other places, while the Sox under Paulie/Thome/AJ/Crede have generally underachieved and choked. Maybe, just maybe what these guys do to "come out ready" isn't all it's cracked up to be? They certainly weren't ready for anything but crap the past few games (and realistically, longer or they wouldn't have needed the last 3 games).

What, in Boston? When he was there all of three months? GMAB.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 10:05 AM
Yet Cabrera's been a winner in other places, while the Sox under Paulie/Thome/AJ/Crede have generally underachieved and choked. Maybe, just maybe what these guys do to "come out ready" isn't all it's cracked up to be? They certainly weren't ready for anything but crap the past few games (and realistically, longer or they wouldn't have needed the last 3 games).

Who's this Crede you speak of?

btrain929
09-26-2008, 10:05 AM
Yet Cabrera's been a winner in other places, while the Sox under Paulie/Thome/AJ/Crede have generally underachieved and choked. Maybe, just maybe what these guys do to "come out ready" isn't all it's cracked up to be? They certainly weren't ready for anything but crap the past few games (and realistically, longer or they wouldn't have needed the last 3 games).

Yeah, he was a winner in BOS, and they proceeded to ship his ass out of town that offseason :rolleyes:

ode to veeck
09-26-2008, 10:06 AM
Why does anyone bother to read anything by Joe Cowley? He's a Moron in sheep's clothing.

oeo
09-26-2008, 10:06 AM
Why does anyone bother to read anything by Joe Cowley? He's a Moron in sheep's clothing.

Haha. BTW, did he also say Uribe is on his way out?

kevingrt
09-26-2008, 10:09 AM
Why does anyone bother to read anything by Joe Cowley? He's a Moron in sheep's clothing.

It's so true. Just look at the tabloid, er, newspaper he rights for. He just is trying to meet his monthly requirement of rilling up people for no reason.

This guy has been wrong so many times in the past.

TDog
09-26-2008, 10:09 AM
If he's upset that he isn't getting any playing time, he has no one to blame but himself. He is NOT the player we thought we were getting. Aside from a couple moments, he's been awful. Trading for Griffey should have lit a fire under his ass, but he's continued to struggle. What does he think he'd be doing out there to help the cause? Striking out looking? I think Thome has that act down already.

I alluded to my feelings for Nick Swisher in the postgame thread as part of a point I was making about my feelings toward the White Sox. He is a good guy who isn't much of a hitter. The problem is with his approach to hitting.

Nick Swisher is pretty much the player I expected him to be, maybe with a lower batting average. I expected .240. As early as March, I think, I was complaining about his approach to hitting, as he displayed last year. People here insisted he was "a beast" and that he would hit. After last season, many A's fans believed that for their team to improve, they had to move him.

There are many people who post here who like the idea of Nick Swisher. They like his historic on-base percentage, something that has become a pet stat among people who worship stats. On-base percentages don't drive in runs (although hitters who drive in runs may have high on-base percentages). Nick Swisher started the season leading off because he is historically better at getting on base than driving people in.

The Sox wanted Swisher because he could play centerfield and he has historically had a high on-base percentage. If they had picked up Aaron Rowwand (who said he signed with the Giants because he believed in the future of the team with all its great pitching), they wouldn't have traded for Nick Swisher. They got a player who proved unspectacular in center who seemed to go up to the plate looking to walk, too often not swinging until he had taken two strikes, too often taking pitches with two strikes that ended up being called strikes.

What I am saying is consistent with what I have been saying since the Sox acquired Nick Swisher. Too often, I've seen pitchers catch up to hitters whose on-base percentage is based heavily on bases on balls. Eventually, you have to be able to hit. Overall, Brian Anderson has been a bigger threat at the plate this year. And that is really unfortunate.

Thain
09-26-2008, 10:09 AM
Cowley likes to stir the pot. For what it's worth, Scott Merkin puts a somewhat different spin on the situation:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080925&content_id=3548916&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

champagne030
09-26-2008, 10:09 AM
Why does anyone bother to read anything by Joe Cowley? He's a Moron in sheep's clothing.

You don't need to read Cowley to tell Swisher is pouting. You just needed to have your TV tuned into the games in Minnesota.

oeo
09-26-2008, 10:10 AM
You don't need to read Cowley to tell Swisher is pouting. You just needed to have your TV tuned into the games in Minnesota.

No, you don't, but Cowley just may be blowing things out of proportion. And with his ****ty record, all signs point to that being completely true. Has the guy been right once this year?

It wouldn't be the first time a player was a little upset, and it won't be the last.

thomas35forever
09-26-2008, 10:11 AM
Swisher seems like a great guy to have around, but he has no one to blame for his being benched but himself. It's sad because I really want to like him. However, if he's not producing, he's not playing. Griffey did more in this series than Swisher would have. I'm sorry Swish, but that's the way it is. Request to leave if you want to, but people around here aren't going to miss you.

Over By There
09-26-2008, 10:12 AM
What is Swisher's reasoning for being mad? He sucked all year plain and simple. If he can't understand that, he shouldn't be playing professional sports. And I love how all the Sox players are so quick to dismiss Orlando and his comments, despite those comments probably being dead on. This team is making me sick.

OC hasn't won any more championships than some of the other leaders on this club, so I call bull**** on this lingering point of view that many have of him as some sort of clubhouse guru on what it takes to win. He obviously has never wanted to be on the White Sox - he started his bitching early and it hasn't stopped. I just wish he'd shut his trap until the season is over.

champagne030
09-26-2008, 10:13 AM
Cowley likes to stir the pot. For what it's worth, Scott Merkin puts a somewhat different spin on the situation:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080925&content_id=3548916&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I'm going to be honest. Right now, I don't think Wise is helping us.

russ99
09-26-2008, 10:14 AM
What is Swisher's reasoning for being mad? He sucked all year plain and simple. If he can't understand that, he shouldn't be playing professional sports. And I love how all the Sox players are so quick to dismiss Orlando and his comments, despite those comments probably being dead on. This team is making me sick.

I got news for you, other players on this team have sucked all year and are still being given at-bats. I don't understand why Swisher's being singled out.

The other annoying aspect, is he's one of the few Sox hitters who was patient at the plate yesterday and wasn't swinging wildly or trying to jack the ball.

I have no problem with O.C.'s comments at all. My only beef is he should have said them a month ago.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 10:20 AM
[quote=russ99;2057801]I got news for you, other players on this team have sucked all year and are still being given at-bats. I don't understand why Swisher's being singled out.

quote]

I guess I didn't think about it like that. Very good point. This team is just a mess right now.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 10:21 AM
I'm going to be honest. Right now, I don't think Wise is helping us.

There's a reason he was a career triple-Aer, but apparently a big homerun in one game makes him an All-Star in Ozzie's eyes.

wulfy
09-26-2008, 10:24 AM
(Preparing to be blasted ....)

Offensively, I think Kenny thought he was getting a cheaper, younger and cost-contained Rowand in Swisher. And if you like OPS as a measurement of a player, he basically did.

Swisher .746
Rowand .759

Their offensive numbers are very similar, with the exception of BA (Rowand +.56) and HR (Swisher +11). But Swisher is NOT a CF and not a lead-off guy. And he has to hit more than .220 to be a 1B.

While I think Swisher needs to get his head out of his ass next season, I don't see him as the major problem on this team. The fact that Thome and PKDP are both coming back are far bigger issues. Those guys are both rally killers and salary hogs - they kill your flexibility both off and on the field.

puckereduppiet
09-26-2008, 10:27 AM
Let's just say, if Ozzie were a better manager we wouldn't be having this discussion. What traits make a winning manager in MLB?

BainesHOF
09-26-2008, 10:28 AM
Swisher has been horrible this season with the exception of a handful of key home runs. He needs to look in the mirror and stop acting so immature.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 10:32 AM
Swisher has been horrible this season with the exception of a handful of key home runs. He needs to look in the mirror and stop acting so immature.

I think O-Cab is far more immature. Ever since day one I feel like he's treated our players like he was this great infielder who was coming in to rescue them from a losing fate. And now him calling out the vets on the team to the press?

Over By There
09-26-2008, 10:33 AM
Let's just say, if Ozzie were a better manager we wouldn't be having this discussion. What traits make a winning manager in MLB?

What? I guess you're saying that Ozzie needs to do a better job of managing personalities? I can't say I agree that Ozzie is the reason Swisher is allegedly pouting. As others have said, Swish is a professional, and if he can't understand that his performance at the plate has been unacceptable, he needs to grow up. It's amazing the crap that people lay at Ozzie's feet.

Evman5
09-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Nick Swisher is pretty much the player I expected him to be, maybe with a lower batting average. I expected .240. As early as March, I think, I was complaining about his approach to hitting, as he displayed last year. People here insisted he was "a beast" and that he would hit. After last season, many A's fans believed that for their team to improve, they had to move him.

There are many people who post here who like the idea of Nick Swisher. They like his historic on-base percentage, something that has become a pet stat among people who worship stats. On-base percentages don't drive in runs (although hitters who drive in runs may have high on-base percentages). Nick Swisher started the season leading off because he is historically better at getting on base than driving people in.


.

While I completely agree he has had a down year, as recently as 2006 he had 35 Hrs and 95 Rbis. He has averaged about 82 rbis his last 3 seasons at Oakland, so obviously he can drive some runs in. Many believe that he has not reached his prime yet so his numbers should improve. I want to see him around next year. Hopefully he will have less pressure on him to perform and feel comfortable. I think he may have pressed too hard this year trying to impress his teammates when he came over in the trade. Remember he thought he was going to be the franchise player in Oakland. He is a good player and will prove a lot of people wrong next year.

dickallen15
09-26-2008, 10:37 AM
The only person who has said Swisher is pouting is Cowley. I'm no Swisher fan, but Cowley is far from a reliable source. He may be upset he's not playing, but do you really want guys on your team that don't care if they play or not, especially in a huge series? Cowley is probably self-gratifying himself as he looks over the various websites seeing the discussion his 99% chance of BS has caused.

kitekrazy
09-26-2008, 10:40 AM
Unless Matt Millen gets into baseball...
:rolling:

Madscout
09-26-2008, 10:45 AM
What, in Boston? When he was there all of three months? GMAB.
What have you done for me lately. Konerko this series- 1-12 Thome 4-11 Griffey 3-10 AJ 3-11

Cabrera 5-11

When we need him the most, he performs. If there are any numbers you should question, they are in bold.

Madscout
09-26-2008, 10:45 AM
I think O-Cab is far more immature. Ever since day one I feel like he's treated our players like he was this great infielder who was coming in to rescue them from a losing fate. And now him calling out the vets on the team to the press?
Konerko went 1-12 in this past series. He needs to be called out.

PatK
09-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Swisher goes up looking for a walk?

I don't see a guy that hits 20+ homeruns a year as someone looking for a walk.

If anything, he's looking to crack the ball out more often than not.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Konerko went 1-12 in this past series. He needs to be called out.

Called out by Ozzie, fine. By Kenny, fine. But not by Orlando Cabrera, who has certainly rubbed a lot of people the wrong away.

TDog
09-26-2008, 10:57 AM
While I completely agree he has had a down year, as recently as 2006 he had 35 Hrs and 95 Rbis. He has averaged about 82 rbis his last 3 seasons at Oakland, so obviously he can drive some runs in. Many believe that he has not reached his prime yet so his numbers should improve. I want to see him around next year. Hopefully he will have less pressure on him to perform and feel comfortable. I think he may have pressed too hard this year trying to impress his teammates when he came over in the trade. Remember he thought he was going to be the franchise player in Oakland. He is a good player and will prove a lot of people wrong next year.

One of the things that irked A's fans the most about Nick Swisher was that he had many RBI opportunties that he seemed to ignore, preferring to walk rather than put the ball in play with a runner on third and less than two out, for example. The belief is that he should have driven in a lot more runs. If you have watched Nick Swisher this year, you may have seen him come through a few times. Certainly he has had those moments. But more often you don't see him do anything until he there are two strikes on him.

For Nick Swisher to approve as a hitter, he is going to have to change his approach, more often drive the first pitch, which scouting reports say he doesn't swing at. He is going to have to get into a hitting frame of mind instead of a walking frame of mind.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 11:00 AM
One of the things that irked A's fans the most about Nick Swisher was that he had many RBI opportunties that he seemed to ignore, preferring to walk rather than put the ball in play with a runner on third and less than two out, for example. The belief is that he should have driven in a lot more runs. If you have watched Nick Swisher this year, you may have seen him come through a few times. Certainly he has had those moments. But more often you don't see him do anything until he there are two strikes on him.

For Nick Swisher to approve as a hitter, he is going to have to change his approach, more often drive the first pitch, which scouting reports say he doesn't swing at. He is going to have to get into a hitting frame of mind instead of a walking frame of mind.

Agreed. Unfortunately the Sox organization did him no favors by putting him as a lead-off guy forcing him to think about the walk too much.

btrain929
09-26-2008, 11:01 AM
One of the things that irked A's fans the most about Nick Swisher was that he had many RBI opportunties that he seemed to ignore, preferring to walk rather than put the ball in play with a runner on third and less than two out, for example. The belief is that he should have driven in a lot more runs. If you have watched Nick Swisher this year, you may have seen him come through a few times. Certainly he has had those moments. But more often you don't see him do anything until he there are two strikes on him.

For Nick Swisher to approve as a hitter, he is going to have to change his approach, more often drive the first pitch, which scouting reports say he doesn't swing at. He is going to have to get into a hitting frame of mind instead of a walking frame of mind.

I agree he is way too passive. It seems like whenever he gets a 2-0 count, he's automatically taking. The point of getting yourself in a 2-0 count is so you can tear into a pitch right down the middle. He let's them go, however.

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 11:07 AM
The only person who has said Swisher is pouting is Cowley. I'm no Swisher fan, but Cowley is far from a reliable source. He may be upset he's not playing, but do you really want guys on your team that don't care if they play or not, especially in a huge series? Cowley is probably self-gratifying himself as he looks over the various websites seeing the discussion his 99% chance of BS has caused.

Your right about this and Cowley fits right into the sensationalistic journalism style at the Sun-Times. The guy always causes trouble. A guy is having a terrible year and got benched. If he was running around making jokes everyone would be screaming that he doesn't care. You can't win around here.

Just like I've read on this site numerous times that the Sox are losing because they're not mad enough and showing enough emotion. :rolleyes:

areilly
09-26-2008, 11:43 AM
I got news for you, other players on this team have sucked all year and are still being given at-bats. I don't understand why Swisher's being singled out.

For what it's worth, Swisher was brought in to solve a problem the Sox have had since 2006 and fell wildly short. Throughout the season, there were always at least two other options for CF, making it the theoretically Sox' shortest-leashed position. No one will argue that other players haven't been simply awful, but Swisher always has been far from irreplaceable where the 2008 Sox were (and still are) concerned.

But, you know, he's wacky, and people like him. Hopefully that Dirty 30 t-shirt windfall will be put to good use this winter.

oeo
09-26-2008, 12:11 PM
There's a reason he was a career triple-Aer, but apparently a big homerun in one game makes him an All-Star in Ozzie's eyes.

It wasn't just a big homerun. The guy was batting .289 on the month.

And again, what his career has been to this point is really irrelevant. Wise was hitting the ball, and hitting it with authority. No matter who you want to pick playing over him (Anderson or Swisher), your argument blows. He was having a good month and just came in and laid an egg.

btrain929
09-26-2008, 12:14 PM
For what it's worth, Swisher was brought in to solve a problem the Sox have had since 2006 and fell wildly short. Throughout the season, there were always at least two other options for CF, making it the theoretically Sox' shortest-leashed position. No one will argue that other players haven't been simply awful, but Swisher always has been far from irreplaceable where the 2008 Sox were (and still are) concerned.

But, you know, he's wacky, and people like him. Hopefully that Dirty 30 t-shirt windfall will be put to good use this winter.

Just because there were 2 other CF options doesn't mean they were clearly better CF options. Plus, you don't just dish out the farm system for a guy, then bench him for Wise/Anderson because of a bad couple of months. If that was the case, we should have benched Konerko and brought up Eldred.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 12:15 PM
I'd post about Swisher's inexplicably low BABIP and how it relates to his bad season and how ludicrous it would be to ship him out, but it would just spoil the bitch-fest. Keep complaining about his low RBI totals and blah blah blah. I'm sure if a team acquires him (keep in mind, KW is 100000x smarter than Joe Cowley and OG) they'll send us a gift basket when he rebounds next season.

ajismyhero
09-26-2008, 12:24 PM
It wasn't just a big homerun. The guy was batting .289 on the month.

And again, what his career has been to this point is really irrelevant. Wise was hitting the ball, and hitting it with authority. No matter who you want to pick playing over him (Anderson or Swisher), your argument blows. He was having a good month and just came in and laid an egg.

Well, he's not hitting with authority right now. Which is most likely why he is a better bench player than a starter. Or are you happy with him going 0 for 11 in the past series as the lead-off man?

champagne030
09-26-2008, 12:43 PM
Well, he's not hitting with authority right now. Which is most likely why he is a better bench player than a starter. Or are you happy with him going 0 for 11 in the past series as the lead-off man?

And now he's batting .220 for the month. That's what happens when someone uses such a small sample size.

That said, hopefully the Great Oswaldo sticks to his righty/lefty matchup bull**** and Wise's ass is ridin' pine.

JB98
09-26-2008, 12:46 PM
Contrary to what Cowley thinks, I believe Swisher will be our starting 1B or RF next year. I think KW is going to break up the Slowskys in the middle of the lineup, and that means either Dye or Konerko will be dealt.

C - AJ
1B - Paulie or Swish
2B - ????
SS - Alexei
3B - ?????
LF - TCQ
CF - BA
RF - Swish or Dye
DH - Thome

KingXerxes
09-26-2008, 12:59 PM
(Preparing to be blasted ....)

Offensively, I think Kenny thought he was getting a cheaper, younger and cost-contained Rowand in Swisher. And if you like OPS as a measurement of a player, he basically did.

Swisher .746
Rowand .759

Their offensive numbers are very similar, with the exception of BA (Rowand +.56) and HR (Swisher +11). But Swisher is NOT a CF and not a lead-off guy. And he has to hit more than .220 to be a 1B.

While I think Swisher needs to get his head out of his ass next season, I don't see him as the major problem on this team. The fact that Thome and PKDP are both coming back are far bigger issues. Those guys are both rally killers and salary hogs - they kill your flexibility both off and on the field.

I'm certainly not going to blast you, but I'd like to stick my 2 cents in.

I think it was Benjamin Disraeli who said, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics."

Your point about the relative closeness of Swisher's OPS with Rowand's OPS has to take into account the fact that Swisher's is obviously bumped up by the number of home runs he's hit.

Right now the White Sox are full of guys whose OPS looks OK solely due to the fact that they hit a lot of home runs. In putting together a team built to win, it's OK to have a couple of lower average sluggers, but you have got to compliment that with some guys who just get on base often so there is someone to drive in.

I would much rather have a Rowand-type of offensive player as the centerfielder given the rest of this team's make up.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 01:05 PM
I'd post about Swisher's inexplicably low BABIP and how it relates to his bad season and how ludicrous it would be to ship him out, but it would just spoil the bitch-fest. Keep complaining about his low RBI totals and blah blah blah. I'm sure if a team acquires him (keep in mind, KW is 100000x smarter than Joe Cowley and OG) they'll send us a gift basket when he rebounds next season.

The guy just had the worst offensive season in the league of any regular. You really want to pin your hopes on a rebound from a guy that has shown the ability to be this bad? We've got enough problems on this team that we can't ship out. We can use as many sure things as we can get.

LoveYourSuit
09-26-2008, 01:07 PM
I think he is eaten up by not playing. Swish seems like a guy who is always all about team. Nothing has changed my mind now that he's been benched in a tight pennant race. I don't think he's sulking. I think he's very frustrated and doesn't want to have that rub off on the rest of the team.

Funny that the two guys who have clearly been the leaders of the clubhouse all year, OC and Swish are now all but guaranteed to be gone ASAP.

It's OG's world, the rest of us are just living in it...

This is starting to become a concern to me also.

I've been on Ozzie's corner for a long time but he is starting to lose control of this thing.

I'm Nick Swisher I'd be pissed too to have lost my job to a career journeyman in Wise. Wise is not good, I've been telling everyone this for a few weeks now. Swisher has sucked most of the year too, but long term plans (if their were any to begin with) he should have never lost his job to D Wise regardless of the "magical GS he hit vs the Tigers." And I question how magical that HR realy was when it came as a result of Kenny and Ozzie's crappy bullpen giving up the game once again that night.

The D Wise situation is starting to piss me off like Timo Perez. It seems Ozzie leaches on to a guy and tries to ride him as if a miracle of some sort is going to happen. Bad players are bad players for a reason.

mcg
09-26-2008, 01:09 PM
For what it's worth there is blurb in today's Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=238224&src=162) about Swisher having a mechanical problem with his swing but it's too late to do anything about it.

It doesn't say anything about when this flaw was detected but this reeks of 2006 when I believe Walker said that he saw problems with Anderson's swing but thought he should try to work it out himself... or something to that effect.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 01:10 PM
This is starting to become a concern to me also.

I've been on Ozzie's corner for a long time but he is starting to lose control of this thing.

I'm Nick Swisher I'd be pissed too to have lost my job to a career journeyman in Wise. Wise is not good, I've been telling everyone this for a few weeks now. Swisher has sucked most of the year too, but long term plans (if their were any to begin with) he should have never lost his job to D Wise regardless of the "magical GS he hit vs the Tigers." And I question how magical that HR realy was when it came as a result of Kenny and Ozzie's crappy bullpen giving up the game once again that night.

The D Wise situation is starting to piss me off like Timo Perez. It seems Ozzie leaches on to a guy and tries to ride him as if a miracle of some sort is going to happen. Bad players are bad players for a reason.

You guys have absolutely lost your mind. Playing Nick Swisher in this series, after the season he's had, would get any manager in baseball fired immediately. Right now, Nick couldn't hit A ball pitching. Why is that obvious to everyone except the people that post here?

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 01:30 PM
You guys have absolutely lost your mind. Playing Nick Swisher in this series, after the season he's had, would get any manager in baseball fired immediately. Right now, Nick couldn't hit A ball pitching. Why is that obvious to everyone except the people that post here?
Shut the **** up. Just shut up. SHUT THE **** UP. You are so out of your element. You are an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 01:34 PM
Shut the **** up. Just shut up. SHUT THE **** UP. You are so out of your element. You are an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere.

Words cannot express the irony in this post.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:35 PM
And now he's batting .220 for the month. That's what happens when someone uses such a small sample size.

You're doing the same exact thing. Taking his last 10 ABs and comparing them to his last 30. You have a good argument.

Look, I said he was hot, which is why he should have been playing. Streaks are all about sample sizes.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:36 PM
For what it's worth there is blurb in today's Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=238224&src=162) about Swisher having a mechanical problem with his swing but it's too late to do anything about it.

It doesn't say anything about when this flaw was detected but this reeks of 2006 when I believe Walker said that he saw problems with Anderson's swing but thought he should try to work it out himself... or something to that effect.

Walker: he gone!

LoveYourSuit
09-26-2008, 01:38 PM
You guys have absolutely lost your mind. Playing Nick Swisher in this series, after the season he's had, would get any manager in baseball fired immediately. Right now, Nick couldn't hit A ball pitching. Why is that obvious to everyone except the people that post here?


Anyone that thinks D Wise is a better baseball player than Nick Swisher is complete dumb ass. The only tool Swisher wishes he had from Wise is speed. And in this series, It was kind of hard to steal 1B for Mr. Wise.

You play the better baseball player in a key series and hope for them to break out of. That's the reason Dye, Thome, & Konerko all played in this series. They were all slumping but you have to bank on them breaking out. They are your key horsemen. Swisher should be on that list too.

Don't get me wrong, look at all my past posts and you will see that I hate Nick Swisher with a passion. He has been the biggest White Sox dissapointment for big acquisitions in a long time.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 01:39 PM
Words cannot express the irony in this post.
Honestly. Fans like you make me want to puke. No matter what happens, you can't be happy with this team's output. We can win the next five and you'd grumble; Swisher could hit .275 next year and put up an OPS around .900 and you'd find fault with something; TCQ could continue this production, and you'd bemoan something no one else gives a **** about.

Go away. Root for the Twins. Do something. Call Mike North's webcast. I'm sure you guys will have an intellectually stimulating debate on Swisher's goatee or something. I'll stick with the facts on record: Nick Swisher was a good player coming into this season, and he is still a good player. An anomaly in the form of an incredibly unlucky BABIP will not change my opinion.

JB98
09-26-2008, 01:39 PM
Walker: he gone!


Someone has to be accountable for all the September slumps. Even in 2005, the offense slumped in September.

In 2006, the bats all went quiet at once down the stretch. This season has the same feel.

Once is a coincidence. Three times in four years is a trend. Identify the problem and fix it. If it is Walker, he needs to go.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 01:42 PM
Anyone that thinks D Wise is a better baseball player than Nick Swisher is complete dumb ass. The only tool Swisher wishes he had from Wise is speed. And in this series, It was kind of hard to steal 1B for Mr. Wise.

You play the better baseball player in a key series and hope for them to break out of. That's the reason Dye, Thome, & Konerko all played in this series. They were all slumping but you have to bank on them breaking out. They are your key horsemen. Swisher should be on that list too.

Don't get me wrong, look at all my past posts and you will see that I hate Nick Swisher with a passion. He has been the biggest White Sox dissapointment for big acquisitions in a long time.

While I don't feel Nick's as talented as a lot of people here do, I agree that he is more talented than Wise. But there's no way you play him this series with the way he's been playing. He's had such a bad season, and he's in the middle of his worst stretch yet. Add to that how great Wise has been this month, it really should have been a no-brainer.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:44 PM
Someone has to be accountable for all the September slumps. Even in 2005, the offense slumped in September.

In 2006, the bats all went quiet at once down the stretch. This season has the same feel.

Once is a coincidence. Three times in four years is a trend. Identify the problem and fix it. If it is Walker, he needs to go.

I think Alexei's situation is an example of Walker relying on players to fix themselves. He's been quoted as saying in the spring that Alexei had mechanical problems, but he was just going to let him do his thing for awhile (sort of like the BA situation). Well, luckily Alexei fixed them himself or he'd probably be in AAA for most of the year.

It's becoming increasingly evident that he's just there for support, not to actually do his job, which is coach.

LoveYourSuit
09-26-2008, 01:45 PM
While I don't feel Nick's as talented as a lot of people here do, I agree that he is more talented than Wise. But there's no way you play him this series with the way he's been playing. He's had such a bad season, and he's in the middle of his worst stretch yet. Add to that how great Wise has been this month, it really should have been a no-brainer.


With your logic, Thome, Dye, AJ & Konerko should all have been riding the pine for the biggest series since 2005. Because all of those guys are huge slumps.


Owens, Fields, Toby, & Anderson all should have been starting had you made the line up.

areilly
09-26-2008, 01:46 PM
Shut the **** up. Just shut up. SHUT THE **** UP. You are so out of your element. You are an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

You know what's an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere? A fan favorite centerfielder with exactly one good month in a Sox uniform to his credit somehow being counted on to finally come through now that the season is on the line.

No matter which of Griffey or Anderson OG put out there, they would at this point represent an improvement, either through BA's superior defense or Griffey's slightly-less-useless bat. This is inarguable. Maybe, as you say, Swisher had trouble adjusting to batting leadoff - but how do you explain the other 450 plate appearances?

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 01:47 PM
I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

You know what's an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere? A fan favorite centerfielder with exactly one good month in a Sox uniform to his credit somehow being counted on to finally come through now that the season is on the line.

No matter which of Griffey or Anderson OG put out there, they would at this point represent an improvement, either through BA's superior defense or Griffey's slightly-less-useless bat. This is inarguable. Maybe, as you say, Swisher had trouble adjusting to batting leadoff - but how do you explain the other 450 plate appearances?
Never said that. Quality reading comprehension.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 01:49 PM
With your logic, Thome, Dye, AJ & Konerko should all have been riding the pine for the biggest series since 2005. Because all of those guys are huge slumps.


Owens, Fields, Toby, & Anderson all should have been starting had you made the line up.

Konerko was hitting well going into the series, and JD and Thome are both having WAY better seasons than Nick is having.

areilly
09-26-2008, 01:52 PM
Never said that. Quality reading comprehension.

Sorry, I confused threads and posters there. That's what I get for going to art school.

That said, I just don't see what your argument is in favor of Nick Swisher other than he's had bad luck. You cite his BABIP, and I don't argue his is horrendous, but to call an entire season the result of bad luck - especially one that isn't too far off his 2005 season - seems generous, and would actually lend itself more in favor of benching Swisher since he's such a consistently unlucky batter this year.

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 01:54 PM
Oz' take on Swish
Read the " Silent Treatment " section of the article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-080925-mark-buehrle-chicago-white-sox,0,4003793.story

SOXBOY
09-26-2008, 01:58 PM
Swisher needed to sit a few days earlier this season not now. Wise has played very well (at least by his own standards) this year but no way does he play over Swisher or Anderson. Say what you want about Anderson, but he has come up with a big hits late in games more times then not this year.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Swisher needed to sit a few days earlier this season not now. Wise has played very well (at least by his own standards) this year but no way does he play over Swisher or Anderson. Say what you want about Anderson, but he has come up with a big hits late in games more times then not this year.


Where is Anderson in all these playing time Swisher/Wise/Griffey arguements? The guy brings great defense and decent speed.

SOXBOY
09-26-2008, 02:09 PM
Ozzie just fell in love with Wise and has never really been a fan of Anderson. I was amazed that Wise with all that speed couldn't track down some of those hits last nite. I think Anderson would of made those plays.

MisterB
09-26-2008, 02:11 PM
The guy just had the worst offensive season in the league of any regular.

Bad? Certainly. Worst? By what measure? There are guys in the AL with as much playing time as Swisher that have lower BA, OBP and SLG, Less HR, RBI, Hits and Walks and more strikeouts (and some qualify in multiple categories, including about a third of Oakland's starting lineup). The fact that Konerko has brought his numbers UP to the level that Swish has brought his numbers DOWN to means it's not even given that he's had the worst offensive season on his own team.

You really want to pin your hopes on a rebound from a guy that has shown the ability to be this bad? We've got enough problems on this team that we can't ship out. We can use as many sure things as we can get.

And Konerko put up worse numbers (.234/.305/.399) back in '03. I guess we shouldn't have pinned our hopes on someone who had the ability to be that bad.

Don't you have some "slap hitters" or "career middle relievers" to complain about?

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 02:14 PM
You Swisher haters really need to back off. If you expected him to come here and all of a sudden he was going to bat .300 and hit 40+ HR and hit 120+ RBI then it it your own fault for expecting too much. The guy is a lifetime .250 hitter and yeah, is hitting only .220, but realistically that is a difference of only 15 hits. In case you have all forgot he has won us quite a few games, and his power numbers are there. Yes I get sick of seeing him take called third strikes, what seems like at least once a game, but to dump solely on this guy is irresponsible. This whole team has peed down their own leg at plenty times this season. Cabrera, Alexei, Thome, Crede, PK, The Bullpen, The Starters. About the only guy who doesn't deserved to be ripped is CQ, and you could probably even rip him for that boneheaded move to break his hand.

The bottom line is Swisher is having a down year, this is true, but so are a number of others on this team. So lay off.

areilly
09-26-2008, 02:17 PM
The bottom line is Swisher is having a down year, this is true, but so are a number of others on this team. So lay off.

Swisher isn't having just a down year...this is actually about as low as it gets.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 02:24 PM
You Swisher haters really need to back off. If you expected him to come here and all of a sudden he was going to bat .300 and hit 40+ HR and hit 120+ RBI then it it your own fault for expecting too much. The guy is a lifetime .250 hitter and yeah, is hitting only .220, but realistically that is a difference of only 15 hits. In case you have all forgot he has won us quite a few games, and his power numbers are there. Yes I get sick of seeing him take called third strikes, what seems like at least once a game, but to dump solely on this guy is irresponsible. This whole team has peed down their own leg at plenty times this season. Cabrera, Alexei, Thome, Crede, PK, The Bullpen, The Starters. About the only guy who doesn't deserved to be ripped is CQ, and you could probably even rip him for that boneheaded move to break his hand.

The bottom line is Swisher is having a down year, this is true, but so are a number of others on this team. So lay off.

I know at least for me, my anger towards swisher isn't really his overall production, it's the fact that he is apparently pissed or confused on why he has been benched. When you are hitting .220 you should not be in the lineup of a contending team, simple as that. I think most Sox fans in general had very high, probably too high, of expecations for Swisher. But whether he improves next year or not is irrelevant. He sucked this year and has no business complaining.

Rockabilly
09-26-2008, 02:26 PM
It will be no big lost if Swisher is moved elsewhere this offseason..

For a guy hitting about 220 should keep his mouth shut..

As it stands right now I would only keep about 12 guys on this team

Carlos
Alexei
Danks
Floyd
Buehrle
Danks
Dye
Thome
Jenks
Thornton
AJ
Linebrink

The rest can packed their bags and get the hell out...

Lets get a team that has some heart..

cleanwsox
09-26-2008, 02:29 PM
It will be no big lost if Swisher is moved elsewhere this offseason..

For a guy hitting about 220 should keep his mouth shut..

As it stands right now I would only keep about 12 guys on this team

Carlos
Alexei
Danks
Floyd
Buehrle
Danks
Dye
Thome
Jenks
Thornton
AJ
Linebrink

The rest can packed their bags and get the hell out...

Lets get a team that has some heart..

2 Danks? Don't think Jordan is ready yet. :smile:

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:30 PM
Oz' take on Swish
Read the " Silent Treatment " section of the article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-080925-mark-buehrle-chicago-white-sox,0,4003793.story

Here's the funny thing about all this: We don't really know what Swisher thinks. He DECLINED COMMENT when approached by reporters. He didn't say he was pissed off. He didn't say anything.

All this controversy is born out of an inference made by reporters. I think Nick, being a first-year player with the White Sox, is a little naive about how the big-city media works.

Perhaps Swisher thought the best thing to do when approached about his benching was to decline comment, so as to make it a non-story. Unfortunately for Nick, that's now how it works. When you decline comment, that pack of beat reporters is then going to shuffle over to Ozzie's office and say that "Swisher isn't talking. He must be pissed off." Well, you know Guillen's gonna comment, and once he does, it becomes a story.

Swish would have been better off just saying, "Guillen makes the lineups, and I have to live with what he decides." A benign comment like that makes it a non-story, as opposed to a "no comment."

munchman33
09-26-2008, 02:31 PM
And Konerko put up worse numbers (.234/.305/.399) back in '03. I guess we shouldn't have pinned our hopes on someone who had the ability to be that bad.


Konerko can't simply be "traded." If he could, he would be right up there on my list.

And it's nice he worked out. But you can only have so many of those "hit or miss" types before you're in a really bad situation. And we've got several that aren't tradable.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:35 PM
Konerko can't simply be "traded." If he could, he would be right up there on my list.

And it's nice he worked out. But you can only have so many of those "hit or miss" types before you're in a really bad situation. And we've got several that aren't tradable.

I disagree with that. I think Konerko, Dye and Swisher are all candidates for a potential trade. If the Sox trade Konerko, they might have to eat a little money, but not too much. Dye and Swisher are both reasonably priced, and Dye has only one year left on his deal. A potential trading partner would not be accepting a long-term financial commitment with JD. In addition, Konerko only has two years left. So his contract, while pricey, isn't a total albatross either.

areilly
09-26-2008, 02:39 PM
In addition, Konerko only has two years left. So his contract, while pricey, isn't a total albatross either.

NYY? LAA? NYM? SF? Seattle?

D. TODD
09-26-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't mind him sitting for the series, and I don't mind that he is upset about it. Hell, if he is any kind of a competitor he should be angry about not getting to start a game in the biggest series of the year. If he was just the same happy-go lucky goofball then that would bother me more.

From his pinch hit appearenc es I think it has not effected his effort at all. He battled hard, so I have no problem with him being upset, but again I do blame Ozzie for sitting him.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:47 PM
NYY? LAA? NYM? SF? Seattle?

I think you can cross San Francisco and Seattle off that list. As you know, Konerko has a no-trade. I think he would accept if he thought he was going to a competitive team. Neither of those two qualify, especially the Mariners, who have no hope on the horizon for at least the remainder of Paulie's contract.

I could see either of the Los Angeles teams or Arizona as possibilities. Paulie in New York? I can't even hazard a guess how he would feel about that.

areilly
09-26-2008, 02:48 PM
I could see either of the Los Angeles teams or Arizona as possibilities. Paulie in New York? I can't even hazard a guess how he would feel about that.

That was one I wondered about as well. They have a shot, but PK doesn't strike me as the type who would do well personally under that harsh a spotlight.

Rockabilly
09-26-2008, 02:49 PM
2 Danks? Don't think Jordan is ready yet. :smile:


I am so pissed off at this team.. My brain is all messed up

Jordan couldn't do any worse than some of the people that are on the 25 man roster

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:51 PM
That was one I wondered about as well. They have a shot, but PK doesn't strike me as the type who would do well personally under that harsh a spotlight.

The Yankees certainly have a hole at first base. They are ready to cut ties with Giambi and all his baggage, and I think they would like a right-handed bat to help balance out a left-hand dominant lineup.

Hell, the Yanks rolled the dice on Sexson and lost. I wouldn't be stunned if Cashman called KW and asked about Konerko. And those two GMs are good friends who have done business before.

Sockinchisox
09-26-2008, 02:54 PM
The Yankees certainly have a hole at first base. They are ready to cut ties with Giambi and all his baggage, and I think they would like a right-handed bat to help balance out a left-hand dominant lineup.

Hell, the Yanks rolled the dice on Sexson and lost. I wouldn't be stunned if Cashman called KW and asked about Konerko. And those two GMs are good friends who have done business before.

I'd bet the Yankees are going to go all out to sign Teixeira.

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 02:56 PM
I'd bet the Yankees are going to go all out to sign Teixeira.

Agree, after CC, Teixeira is next on their list.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 02:56 PM
I disagree with that. I think Konerko, Dye and Swisher are all candidates for a potential trade. If the Sox trade Konerko, they might have to eat a little money, but not too much. Dye and Swisher are both reasonably priced, and Dye has only one year left on his deal. A potential trading partner would not be accepting a long-term financial commitment with JD. In addition, Konerko only has two years left. So his contract, while pricey, isn't a total albatross either.

You misunderstand me. Konerko has veto power over all trades. And he loves it here. He isn't going anywhere.

I wouldn't trade Dye unless I got two players ready to contribute. He's one of our few "sure" producers (and yes, I am admitting I was wrong when I said before the season he was done).

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:57 PM
I'd bet the Yankees are going to go all out to sign Teixeira.

But they'll have stiff competition from the Angels, and possibly even Boston.

areilly
09-26-2008, 02:57 PM
The Yankees certainly have a hole at first base. They are ready to cut ties with Giambi and all his baggage, and I think they would like a right-handed bat to help balance out a left-hand dominant lineup.

Hell, the Yanks rolled the dice on Sexson and lost. I wouldn't be stunned if Cashman called KW and asked about Konerko. And those two GMs are good friends who have done business before.

I don't even want to imagine the NY Post headlines should PK go into another months-on-end stretch of non-hitting.

KONERK-OH-NO!!
PAULIE? WALNUTS!
PAULIE WANNA CRACK .220

And so on.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:59 PM
You misunderstand me. Konerko has veto power over all trades. And he loves it here. He isn't going anywhere.

I wouldn't trade Dye unless I got two players ready to contribute. He's one of our few "sure" producers (and yes, I am admitting I was wrong when I said before the season he was done).

Yes, I'm aware of Konerko's no-trade rights. That makes him more difficult to move, but it's not impossible.

I think fans sometimes overestimate a player's loyalty to a city.

sox1970
09-26-2008, 03:00 PM
You misunderstand me. Konerko has veto power over all trades. And he loves it here. He isn't going anywhere.

If the Angels or Diamondbacks agreed to a trade for Konerko, I think he would approve the trade. They both have a chance to win every year, and they both have spring training in AZ, where he lives.

If Teixiera signs elsewhere, the Angels are going to need a 1B. Two years of Konerko wouldn't be that big of a commitment for the Angels.

Konerko05
09-26-2008, 03:01 PM
You misunderstand me. Konerko has veto power over all trades. And he loves it here. He isn't going anywhere.


He loves it here when he knows he is wanted. If Konerko doesn't feel like the organization or fans want him around, he isn't going to stick around. He's going to accept the trade to a decent organization that has a desire to have him on their team.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:02 PM
It's OG's world, the rest of us are just living in it...


Ozzie Guillen = Homer Simpson

His detractors = Frank Grimes.

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 03:08 PM
But they'll have stiff competition from the Angels, and possibly even Boston.

By ridding themselves of Giambi, Abreu and Pettite the yanks free up $53 mil.
Plus all the anticipated additional revenue from seats at the new stadium, the yanks will have huge amounts of cash to spend on FA's.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 03:35 PM
When you are hitting .220 you should not be in the lineup of a contending team, simple as that.

If thats the case then I shouldn't be reading all of this Brian Anderson talk.

thedudeabides
09-26-2008, 03:35 PM
Ozzie Guillen = Homer Simpson

His detractors = Frank Grimes.

:rolling:

"How is old Grimey anyway"

"He's Dead"

#1swisher
09-26-2008, 03:36 PM
You misunderstand me. Konerko has veto power over all trades. And he loves it here. He isn't going anywhere.

I wouldn't trade Dye unless I got two players ready to contribute. He's one of our few "sure" producers (and yes, I am admitting I was wrong when I said before the season he was done).

"Konerko loves it here" when did this happen? I remember after WS05 when everyone was chanting "sign the deal,sign the deal" reading somewhere that he didn't like Chicagos' weather. Not disagreeing with you just wanted more clarification.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 03:45 PM
"Konerko loves it here" when did this happen? I remember after WS05 when everyone was chanting "sign the deal,sign the deal" reading somewhere that he didn't like Chicagos' weather. Not disagreeing with you just wanted more clarification.

I remember a long time ago reading how he want to retire here because we were the team that gave him a chance to become a star. This was before he resigned here.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 03:47 PM
If thats the case then I shouldn't be reading all of this Brian Anderson talk.


He's hitting .237 and gives you great defense and decent speed. Swisher gives you .221 and stares at a TON of called third strikes. Give me BA any day over that. If neither of them can hit, you take whats next best, and thats BAs defense.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:48 PM
This is all Joe Cowley's opinion. HE THINKS Swisher will ask for a trade. HE THINKS he wants out. .
.

Considering that Senor Shrunken-Bicepts GREATLY benefitted from playing at USCF this year, it would be a big mistake for him to leave.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 03:50 PM
He's hitting .237 and gives you great defense and decent speed. Swisher gives you .221 and stares at a TON of called third strikes. Give me BA any day over that. If neither of them can hit, you take whats next best, and thats BAs defense.
Well Ozzie don't seem to think so and he has two WS rings, how many did you say you have?

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 03:56 PM
Well Ozzie don't seem to think so and he has two WS rings, how many did you say you have?

Well one of those rings wasn't as a manager, so thats retarted. I'm not saying BA is a star or anything, but how anyone here can defend Nick Swisher is beyond me. And please let me know how Ozzie's decisions worked out this week, looked real impressive to me. I'm an Ozzie guy, but some of his decisions this week boggle my mind. Explain to me why you would pinch hit Swisher for Uribe late in the game instead of Dewayne Wise? That means you must bring in a terrible fielding 3rdbasmen in an extra innings game. Why not just take out Wise, who didn't do a damn thing this series?

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:56 PM
(Preparing to be blasted ....)

Offensively, I think Kenny thought he was getting a cheaper, younger and cost-contained Rowand in Swisher. And if you like OPS as a measurement of a player, he basically did.

Swisher .746
Rowand .759


.

Aaron Rowand is anti-Cabrera. Great in April-May (hitting .340 at some point) this year, but pretty damn bad since.

And I've had my PED suspicions about Rowand just as much as Swisher, so I don't want him or his overrated D. on my team, either.

champagne030
09-26-2008, 03:59 PM
Well Ozzie don't seem to think so and he has two WS rings, how many did you say you have?

Awe ****, my ticket rep has a WS ring. He's qualified in your book and he thinks Oswaldo is a jackass and Anderson should've started during this last series.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 04:01 PM
Awe ****, my ticket rep has a WS ring. He's qualified in your book and he thinks Oswaldo is a jackass and Anderson should've started during this last series.


So does Hawk, and according to him the umps cost us the series.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:05 PM
One of the things that irked A's fans the most about Nick Swisher was that he had many RBI opportunties that he seemed to ignore, preferring to walk rather than put the ball in play with a runner on third and less than two out, for example. The belief is that he should have driven in a lot more runs. If you have watched Nick Swisher this year, you may have seen him come through a few times. Certainly he has had those moments. But more often you don't see him do anything until he there are two strikes on him.

For Nick Swisher to approve as a hitter, he is going to have to change his approach, more often drive the first pitch, which scouting reports say he doesn't swing at. He is going to have to get into a hitting frame of mind instead of a walking frame of mind.

I think some people who can't see past their hatred of BB & S-metrics and as such misunderstand the reason why Swisher is not a good hitter, this year anyway.

It's NOT because Swisher walks a lot, but, rather, it's because he CAN'T hit due to his long swing & tendency to pull off pitches on the outer-half of the plate.

Swisher's problem is NOT that he takes a close 3-2 pitch for 'Ball 4' with RISP - that only helps the team... No, his problem is that when he has a 3-1 count and the pitch is a get me over fastball middle-away, he pulls off of it, hitting a pop-foul into the stands - instead of hammering it hard on the line to LF for an RBI single.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 04:05 PM
Awe ****, my ticket rep has a WS ring. He's qualified in your book and he thinks Oswaldo is a jackass and Anderson should've started during this last series.
Wow, a ticket rep! So you're saying a glorified telemarketer has the credentials to manage a MLB team. Now I've heard it all:rolleyes:

#1swisher
09-26-2008, 04:07 PM
Well one of those rings wasn't as a manager, so thats retarted. I'm not saying BA is a star or anything, but how anyone here can defend Nick Swisher is beyond me. And please let me know how Ozzie's decisions worked out this week, looked real impressive to me. I'm an Ozzie guy, but some of his decisions this week boggle my mind. Explain to me why you would pinch hit Swisher for Uribe late in the game instead of Dewayne Wise? That means you must bring in a terrible fielding 3rdbasmen in an extra innings game. Why not just take out Wise, who didn't do a damn thing this series?

I totally agree!

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:07 PM
So does Hawk, and according to him the umps cost us the series.

Hawk and Ozzie may turn the umps against the Sox (if they already haven't) if they don't shut up pronto.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 04:09 PM
Wow, a ticket rep! So you're saying a glorified telemarketer has the credentials to manage a MLB team. Now I've heard it all:rolleyes:

So based on your posts, because Ozzie has ONE ring as a mgr, he can do no wrong? If thats so, why is Brenly in the cubs TV booth? Why did Cito Gaston not get a job for a decade when he had TWO rings? I love Ozzie, always have, always will, but that doesn't mean he's perfect or fans can't question some of his dumbass moves.

areilly
09-26-2008, 04:10 PM
So does Hawk, and according to him the umps cost us the series.

Don't forget about bitburger (http://cgi.ebay.com/2001-Arizona-Diamondbacks-World-Series-Ring_W0QQitemZ230292838261QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 230292838261&_trkparms=72%3A1207%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) and jeanstreet908 (http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-Yankee-world-series-championship-ring_W0QQitemZ250298112954QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 250298112954&_trkparms=72%3A1207%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14). They also are proven winners and therefore made the right decisions this week.

areilly
09-26-2008, 04:11 PM
Hawk and Ozzie may turn the umps against the Sox (if they already haven't) if they don't shut up pronto.

"That's bull! YOU'RE BULL!"

I don't really like Hawk's announcing, but that's still my all-time favorite call by any announcer, ever.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 04:11 PM
Well one of those rings wasn't as a manager, so thats retarted. I'm not saying BA is a star or anything, but how anyone here can defend Nick Swisher is beyond me. And please let me know how Ozzie's decisions worked out this week, looked real impressive to me. I'm an Ozzie guy, but some of his decisions this week boggle my mind. Explain to me why you would pinch hit Swisher for Uribe late in the game instead of Dewayne Wise? That means you must bring in a terrible fielding 3rdbasmen in an extra innings game. Why not just take out Wise, who didn't do a damn thing this series?
It's called a "gut" feeling and those obvioulsy dont always work, but that doesn't mean you stop making them. If Swisher ends up hitting a HR or something all of a sudden Ozzie is a genious and everybody here wants to hold his balls.


And furthermore even one ring as a manager is still one more than you or anybody here for that matter, will ever have

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 04:13 PM
It's called a "gut" feeling and those obvioulsy dont always work, but that doesn't mean you stop making them. If Swisher ends up hitting a HR or something all of a sudden Ozzie is a genious and everybody here wants to hold his balls.


So it's a "gut" feeling to pinch hit for your only decent thirdbasemen, allowing a terrible defensive thirdbasemen to take the field in an extra innings game, when a LF is up right after that who stranded a ton of runners in the series? Not to mention a semi injured terrible defensive thirdbasemen? I agree that if Swisher had a big hit we'd all be happy, but fact of the matter is, that was a dumb move.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:14 PM
I'd post about Swisher's inexplicably low BABIP and how it relates to his bad season and how ludicrous it would be to ship him out, but it would just spoil the bitch-fest. Keep complaining about his low RBI totals and blah blah blah. I'm sure if a team acquires him (keep in mind, KW is 100000x smarter than Joe Cowley and OG) they'll send us a gift basket when he rebounds next season.

You can take your BABIP condescension and shove it.

No BABIP will help you when you are, say, tardy on straight as arrow 88 mph fastballs, pull off pitches 2 inches off outside corner & have your knees buckled by rolling curveballs right down broadway - as Swisher has for most of 2008.

If you believe he will rebound in 2009 in a major way, that's your right, and I hope you're 100% correct on that front.... But don't you dare so much as imply that Swisher's sucking donkey ass in 2008 is due to anything OTHER than Swisher sucking donkey ass.

Please watch some games and not boxscores, is my point.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 04:16 PM
So it's a "gut" feeling to pinch hit for your only decent thirdbasemen, allowing a terrible defensive thirdbasemen to take the field in an extra innings game, when a LF is up right after that who stranded a ton of runners in the series? Not to mention a semi injured terrible defensive thirdbasemen? I agree that if Swisher had a big hit we'd all be happy, but fact of the matter is, that was a dumb move.

Hindsight is 20/20 my friend.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 04:19 PM
Hindsight is 20/20 my friend.

Nothing bad came of it, but had Fields made a dumb error, everyone on this board would be attacking that move. But that doesn't change the fact it was a stupid move. Other than Ozzie's "gut", can you give an explanation on how that move makes sense on any level? Blindly supporting Ozzie or Swisher just because of their histories is moronic.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:19 PM
Shut the **** up. Just shut up. SHUT THE **** UP. You are so out of your element. You are an embarrassment to Sox fans everywhere.

What the hell?

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 04:29 PM
Nothing bad came of it, but had Fields made a dumb error, everyone on this board would be attacking that move. But that doesn't change the fact it was a stupid move. Other than Ozzie's "gut", can you give an explanation on how that move makes sense on any level? Blindly supporting Ozzie or Swisher just because of their histories is moronic.
What other explanation do you need???? Ozzie knew that they needed that game last night, and he tried to do everything he thought he should to make that happen. And he failed. That is the only reason his decisions were wrong, and the only reason why we know it. It is almost impossible to notice a bad decision if it doesn't fail, right? And I have never heard Ozzie come out and say, "Every decision I make is the right one", have you?

What about leaving Jenks in for 2+ innings when he hasn't done that all season? Where are all the complaints about that? Ozzie made his decisions right or wrong, but the players then have to execute. Ozzie didn't cause them to go 3 up and 3 down in 6/10 innings but they did, which I would argue is a big reason why they lost that game.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 04:33 PM
What other explanation do you need???? Ozzie knew that they needed that game last night, and he tried to do everything he thought he should to make that happen. And he failed. That is the only reason his decisions were wrong, and the only reason why we know it. It is almost impossible to notice a bad decision if it doesn't fail, right? And I have never heard Ozzie come out and say, "Every decision I make is the right one", have you?

What about leaving Jenks in for 2+ innings when he hasn't done that all season? Where are all the complaints about that? Ozzie made his decisions right or wrong, but the players then have to execute. Ozzie didn't cause them to go 3 up and 3 down in 6/10 innings but they did, which I would argue is a big reason why they lost that game.


Win or lose, it just makes no sense to me to force the worst defensive infielder your team has on the field in an extra innings game for no reason. that's my complaint. I understand some decisions work, many do not. BUt this one, even though it was irrelevant, really bugs me for some reason. There is just not one logical reason for this move with Wise coming up after Uribe. I'm certainly not blaming the loss on this move at all, it just seems completey dumb to me. Ive been defending Ozzie most of the day to people, it ain't his fault numerous veteran hitters did not hit in big games. But to say Ozzie has no blame on this collapse is also ridiculous.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 04:43 PM
Win or lose, it just makes no sense to me to force the worst defensive infielder your team has on the field in an extra innings game for no reason. that's my complaint. I understand some decisions work, many do not. BUt this one, even though it was irrelevant, really bugs me for some reason. There is just not one logical reason for this move with Wise coming up after Uribe. I'm certainly not blaming the loss on this move at all, it just seems completey dumb to me. Ive been defending Ozzie most of the day to people, it ain't his fault numerous veteran hitters did not hit in big games. But to say Ozzie has no blame on this collapse is also ridiculous.
Swisher when he doesn't strike out, takes a lot of walks. Wise is probably the best bunter on the team at the moment from what I've seen. Could be he was counting on Swish to get on and DW to bunt him over, then pray for the ever elusive clutch base hit by OC or whoever to drive him in. Seems like a good plan to me, if it would've worked

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:44 PM
:rolling:

"How is old Grimey anyway"

"He's Dead"


http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/FrankGrimes.gif

"Good Heavens! This is a palace! H-How can, how in the world can you afford to live in a house like this, Simpson? Look at the size of this place! I -- I live in a single room above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley. [notices some pictures on the wall] I'm sorry, isn't that ... You? Went into outer space? No, I don't want to see your Grammy. God, I've had to work hard every day of my life, and what do I have to show for it? This briefcase and this haircut! And what do you have to show for your lifetime of sloth and ignorance? Everything! A dream house! Two cars! A beautiful wife! A son who owns a factory! Fancy clothes and [sniffs] lobsters for dinner. And do you deserve any of it? No! I'm saying you're what's wrong with America, Simpson. You coast through life, you do as little as possible, and you leech off of decent, hardworking people like me. Heh, if you lived in any other country in the world, you'd have starved to death long ago. You're a fraud. A total fraud.

It was nice meeting you"

russ99
09-26-2008, 04:45 PM
http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/FrankGrimes.gif

"Good Heavens! This is a palace! H-How can, how in the world can you afford to live in a house like this, Simpson? Look at the size of this place! I -- I live in a single room above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley. [notices some pictures on the wall] I'm sorry, isn't that ... You? Went into outer space? No, I don't want to see your Grammy. God, I've had to work hard every day of my life, and what do I have to show for it? This briefcase and this haircut! And what do you have to show for your lifetime of sloth and ignorance? Everything! A dream house! Two cars! A beautiful wife! A son who owns a factory! Fancy clothes and [sniffs] lobsters for dinner. And do you deserve any of it? No! I'm saying you're what's wrong with America, Simpson. You coast through life, you do as little as possible, and you leech off of decent, hardworking people like me. Heh, if you lived in any other country in the world, you'd have starved to death long ago. You're a fraud. A total fraud.

It was nice meeting you"

My all-time favorite. Thanks for that, made me chuckle on a dark Sox day.

Frontman
09-26-2008, 04:48 PM
Anyone who would consider OC as a leader needs to get their head examined; and anyone who can claim to know why a person is acting a certain way should have either "Ph.D." or "Psy.D." after their name on a diploma. Otherwise, they are just guessing as to intent.

Swish had a rough year. The Sox put him in as a player to shore up areas on the team that was lacking last season. He didn't work out in those roles. Of course he'd be reserved and quiet. Considering how the team performed on this road trip; I'm not surprised by anyone on the roster being on the quiet/reserved side.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 05:02 PM
"That's bull! YOU'RE BULL!"

I don't really like Hawk's announcing, but that's still my all-time favorite call by any announcer, ever.

Bwa-hahhahaha.

That's what makes the Hawkaroo Teh Greatest of All Time.


:hawk
"WILD-PEACH! :angry:"


.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 05:24 PM
And please let me know how Ozzie's decisions worked out this week, looked real impressive to me. I'm an Ozzie guy, but some of his decisions this week boggle my mind. Explain to me why you would pinch hit Swisher for Uribe late in the game instead of Dewayne Wise? That means you must bring in a terrible fielding 3rdbasmen in an extra innings game. Why not just take out Wise, who didn't do a damn thing this series?


While you're at it...

Please explain to me how he doesn't have Uribe guard the line yet again (he got burned on the same **** with Mike Aviles at USCF a few weeks back among other instances) with Matt Thornton throwing inside to a RH - when the Sox were up 6-4.

Please explain to me how he doesn't have Wise play closer to the line despite the hitting spray charts - when the Sox were leading 6-1.

Please explain to me how he allows Griffey who can't hit LHP to save his life right now, to hit against both Reyes and Breslow - with RH Brian Anderson on the bench, ready to come in for defensive purposes anyway - again while the Sox were leading, looking to put the crucial game away.

Etc. Ad infinitum.

Contrast it with Gardenhire shrewdly removing Blackburn before he had a chance to implode 3rd time through the Sox line-up despite Blackburns's respectable pitching line - even though his pen was worse than Sox pen, arguably.... And then substituting LH Buescher for RH Harris who proceeded to hit a hugely important lead-off double off Thornton.... Not to mention, excellent defensive alignments.

The camera shots of Ozzie sitting there with arms crossed, bewildered & clueless, said it all.

.

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 06:21 PM
Hawk and Ozzie may turn the umps against the Sox (if they already haven't) if they don't shut up pronto.

Yep, the umps hear about all the knocks they get from Hawk.
Instead of studying crowd noise, Hawk should have studied how berating an umpire causes the umpire's conscious mind to tell the subconscious mind to screw the sox.

Hunker down
09-26-2008, 06:26 PM
All year we saw Swisher on TV, heard him on the radio. If he would have just shut-up and play baseball, he still might be in the lineup.

Frontman
09-26-2008, 06:33 PM
All year we saw Swisher on TV, heard him on the radio. If he would have just shut-up and play baseball, he still might be in the lineup.

Don't say that. I said something similar about BMac two seasons ago and was absolutely hated for it.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
09-26-2008, 06:42 PM
Swisher >>>>> Wise.

Play him.


/end thread.

Believe It!
09-26-2008, 06:59 PM
So based on your posts, because Ozzie has ONE ring as a mgr, he can do no wrong? If thats so, why is Brenly in the cubs TV booth? Why did Cito Gaston not get a job for a decade when he had TWO rings? I love Ozzie, always have, always will, but that doesn't mean he's perfect or fans can't question some of his dumbass moves.
So based on your post, you know for a fact that Brenly wants to manage but just CANT get a job. And that Cito has been waiting all this time to get back in and just now had the chance. Get real.

JimRivera
09-27-2008, 12:14 AM
Swisher was a totally different dude with Oaktown, true. Why the heck he didn't fit in here in a huge mystery, at least to me. Well, he did slam a nice hit to right field last night, too bad we lost AGAIN.
Well we're still in it...I'll be driving over on the Indiana Toll Road, Ohio Turnpike, and I-75 up to Comerica Park on Monday if that game is played.
GO SOX !!! I ain't quitting on them yet. :mad:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2405652012_97876aa3df.jpg?v=0

manders_01
09-27-2008, 12:35 AM
Swisher was a totally different dude with Oaktown, true. Why the heck he didn't fit in here in a huge mystery, at least to me. Well, he did slam a nice hit to right field last night, too bad we lost AGAIN.
Well we're still in it...I'll be driving over on the Indiana Toll Road, Ohio Turnpike, and I-75 up to Comerica Park on Monday if that game is played.
GO SOX !!! I ain't quitting on them yet. :mad:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2405652012_97876aa3df.jpg?v=0

Umm, the game would be played in Chicago. :?:

Nellie_Fox
09-27-2008, 12:58 AM
He's hitting .237 and gives you great defense and decent speed. Swisher gives you .221 and stares at a TON of called third strikes. Give me BA any day over that. If neither of them can hit, you take whats next best, and thats BAs defense.I won't argue defense; Swisher is no center fielder, and shouldn't be there. However, batting average is one of the worst stats to judge a player by. On base percentage: Swisher .333, Anderson .275. OPS: Swisher .745, Anderson .726.

Hawk and Ozzie may turn the umps against the Sox (if they already haven't) if they don't shut up pronto.

Yep, the umps hear about all the knocks they get from Hawk.
Instead of studying crowd noise, Hawk should have studied how berating an umpire causes the umpire's conscious mind to tell the subconscious mind to screw the sox.Since this year I've had the Extra Innings package to watch the games, I haven't been listening to the radio crew. However, last night I was driving the 90 miles from Rochester back to Mankato, and had WSCR on the car radio. Farmer and Stone were bitching about the umpiring just as much as Hawk, but I never see them criticized for it on here. They were even still bitching about the umpiring from Wednesday's game.

DickAllen72
09-27-2008, 01:00 AM
Funny that the two guys who have clearly been the leaders of the clubhouse all year, OC and Swish are now all but guaranteed to be gone ASAP.

It's OG's world, the rest of us are just living in it...
:rolling:

Adele_H
09-27-2008, 02:31 AM
. Farmer and Stone were bitching about the umpiring just as much as Hawk, but I never see them criticized for it on here..

First thing's first: Stone doesn't come CLOSE to bitching about the umps as much or as, um, passionately as Hawk does. Unless the calls are blatanly incorrect and costly.

Secondly, Ed Farmer has flown off the reservation. I fancy that criticising him is like criticising someone with a (develop)mental disability, at this point. (He's also far less prominent than Hawk, so when he grumbles about the pitch being "right down the middle...called a 'ball'", few notice.)

pmck003
09-27-2008, 04:29 AM
Looking at this thread, I imagine that players in the clubhouse are also at least thinking about who to blame. The media (Joe C.) loves to write about this stuff. Problem is that everyone and no one gets the blame. Think about who carried the team during the year; arguably Crede early on and Quentin throughout until last month. I was hoping Griffey might step up and be the new motivator/producer, but he has not done that so far as I would know through the media and only a little at the plate in losing efforts at the dome.

What do you want Swisher to do at this point, grab on to some pom poms and yell? Do you honestly think so strongly about a 220 hitter that he would of won one of these last games? Woudl Sparky Anderson have put him in the lineup? I don't blame Swisher's supposed moping one bit for anyone's struggles on the team.

Lets face it, the lineup is dramatically reduced without Crede (healthy) and Quentin and the bullpen has stunk relative to winning teams bullpens (thinking about this if you wanna blame KW, do you think Linebrink would of been worth 1 or 2 wins had he stayed healthy?). If you want someone to blame, look at who is supposed to be the most productive. Konerko/Thome have been sub-par to their own and most playoff-worthy 1B/DH standards all year. Dye has struggled lately. Javy and Danks didn't come through with dominant performances during this stretch. Griffey and Ozzie. Anyone you want in the bullpen. I'm sure all these professionals are greatly affected by Swisher's conditon. What does it mean if they are?

NLaloosh
09-27-2008, 04:34 AM
Swisher: Give the guy a break. He's pissed off because the team has played like **** and so he he for the past 2 months.

He's 27 and he's had his first bad season after coming to a new city/team and playing a new position defensively and hitting in a new spot in the lineup.

Usually, when players are put in postions where they have little experience they tend to fail.

In Oakland, Swisher was not the regular CFer. He also was not the regular leadoff hitter or number two hitter.

The Sox would be truly dense to trade Swisher. He's one of the very few Sox players with a good OBP. He has about as much verstaility as anyone on the team, a good contract, a good team guy and a lot of ability.

Maybe, in 2009, the Sox should bat Swisher 6th or 7th and have him play 1B regularly filling in at the OF corners occasionally. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see numbers like his 3 seasons in Oakland.

Maybe they would have a younger, faster, switch hitting, better defensive, cheaper, more versatile first baseman that could still put up a line like .260/.380 with 30 homers and 90+ rbi's. Sounds perefectly reasonable to me.

But, if you would rather expect him to start in CF and bat leadoff........

Thain
09-27-2008, 08:23 AM
Here's what Swisher had to say on the matter:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-27-white-sox-side-chicagosep27,0,7475970.story

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 10:28 AM
He's 27 and he's had his first bad season after coming to a new city/team and playing a new position defensively and hitting in a new spot in the lineup.



This is where in an unfair manner I'm for firing Walker. It's seems players from other teams eventually ride the Sox feast or famine train.

I don't understand the Swisher hate at all.

I never understood the favoritism be got from Ozzie either by being a defensive replacement for PK. unless it was because of his injuries.

Let's keep in mind the money players in the lineup (PK, Thome) were not putting up the expected numbers. If Morneau and Mauer had a season like that we are waiting to play in the post season.

When you have a team as slow as the Sox, OBP is a damning thing. As DJ points out why does it take 4 singles for the Sox to score one run?

After 3 years of this I've grown to hate the DH and prefer it to be out of baseball.

TomBradley72
09-27-2008, 11:34 AM
I have no problem trading him. Since we'll have Thome/Konerko/Dye/TCQ on next year's team...the only real role for him is "super sub". If we could get an arm for the bullpen....I'd be happy to see the Swisher era come to an end. We need to reduce our strike outs and increase our overall defense, team speed and ability to manufacture runs...he doesn't help us in any of those areas for 2009. His contract is relatively low...hopefully someone will want him.

oeo
09-27-2008, 11:58 AM
Here's what Swisher had to say on the matter:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-27-white-sox-side-chicagosep27,0,7475970.story

:lol:

Joe Cowley is wrong again; he should just quit now. His sources ****ing blow, and he can't even make good judgments of a situation. Hey Cowley: you suck!

canOcorn
09-27-2008, 12:02 PM
While you're at it...

Please explain to me how he doesn't have Uribe guard the line yet again (he got burned on the same **** with Mike Aviles at USCF a few weeks back among other instances) with Matt Thornton throwing inside to a RH - when the Sox were up 6-4.

Please explain to me how he doesn't have Wise play closer to the line despite the hitting spray charts - when the Sox were leading 6-1.

Please explain to me how he allows Griffey who can't hit LHP to save his life right now, to hit against both Reyes and Breslow - with RH Brian Anderson on the bench, ready to come in for defensive purposes anyway - again while the Sox were leading, looking to put the crucial game away.

Etc. Ad infinitum.

Contrast it with Gardenhire shrewdly removing Blackburn before he had a chance to implode 3rd time through the Sox line-up despite Blackburns's respectable pitching line - even though his pen was worse than Sox pen, arguably.... And then substituting LH Buescher for RH Harris who proceeded to hit a hugely important lead-off double off Thornton.... Not to mention, excellent defensive alignments.

The camera shots of Ozzie sitting there with arms crossed, bewildered & clueless, said it all.

.

I thought Swisher had a problem with his swing that couldn't be corrected this season? Now it's suddenly fixed? :scratch:

This smells of Ozzie trying to throw darts at a board.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 12:06 PM
Again and again, Cowley shows what a complete douchbag he is.

jabrch
09-27-2008, 12:07 PM
I thought Swisher had a problem with his swing that couldn't be corrected this season? Now it's suddenly fixed? :scratch:

This smells of Ozzie trying to throw darts at a board.

Any time you make a change this late in the season that is what it is. Same as benching him for Wise was. At this point, it is a crap shoot. There's no right or wrong answer. The best manager or the worst manager just has to make a call here, and the odds are about even right now that you are right or wrong. In fact, the odds are much better that you are wrong either way, and won't be proven right. So what's the difference?

Adele_H
09-27-2008, 03:51 PM
I thought Swisher had a problem with his swing that couldn't be corrected this season? Now it's suddenly fixed? :scratch:

This smells of Ozzie trying to throw darts at a board.

Actually I don't have a problem with Ozzie starting Swisher in LF at USCF. Baby Giambi is our best defensive LF (as sad as it sounds), and he can at least draw a walk or pop one out of the stadium.

As long as Anderson, the only real CF on this team, starts in CF every game, I don't mind either Griffey or Swisher in LF.

Yesterday it wouldn't have mattered much anyway: the pitching staff (exacerbated by AJP's poor handling thereof) killed the team's chances of winning the game, anyway.

Adele_H
09-27-2008, 03:57 PM
There is a difference - perhaps too subtle for some to notice - between a team CHOKING... and JUST NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH.

In 2006, it may have been the latter.
In 2008, there is no doubt it's the former.

eastchicagosoxfan
09-27-2008, 04:03 PM
I have no problem trading him. Since we'll have Thome/Konerko/Dye/TCQ on next year's team...the only real role for him is "super sub". If we could get an arm for the bullpen....I'd be happy to see the Swisher era come to an end. We need to reduce our strike outs and increase our overall defense, team speed and ability to manufacture runs...he doesn't help us in any of those areas for 2009. His contract is relatively low...hopefully someone will want him.

I like what this guy says. By the way he's signed through 2011.

BleacherBandit
09-27-2008, 04:37 PM
I like what this guy says. He's signed through 2011.

:o:

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 05:14 PM
Contrary to what Cowley thinks, I believe Swisher will be our starting 1B or RF next year. I think KW is going to break up the Slowskys in the middle of the lineup, and that means either Dye or Konerko will be dealt.

C - AJ
1B - Paulie or Swish
2B - ????
SS - Alexei
3B - ?????
LF - TCQ
CF - BA
RF - Swish or Dye
DH - Thome

:o:

You're penciling BA into CF?

Let me mark this down!

:tongue:

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 05:51 PM
I won't argue defense; Swisher is no center fielder, and shouldn't be there. However, batting average is one of the worst stats to judge a player by. On base percentage: Swisher .333, Anderson .275. OPS: Swisher .745, Anderson .726.

By extension, that means that Anderson has a higher slugging percentage than Swisher: .451 to .412. Also, BA has done a lot of that slugging against LHP, even though he has never hit lefties all that well, even back in high school (as Daver has argued). It's reasonable to assume that with regular playing time against RHP, and his new and improved attitude, BA would hit better than he has to date.

Swisher should not be a regular starter at any position, but should be the super-sub, rotated among LF, RF, CF and 1B in these arrangments:

#1: LF TCQ, CF BA, RF Dye, 1B PK, DH Thome, Bench Swish
#2: LF TCQ, CF Swish, RF Dye, 1B PK, DH Thome, Bench BA
#3: LF TCQ, CF BA, RF Dye, 1B Swish, DH PK, Bench Thome
#4: LF TCQ, CF BA, RF Swish, 1B PK, DH Dye, Bench Thome
#5: LF Swish, CF BA, RF Dye, 1B PK, DH Quentin, Bench Thome

Let's say there are 13 games every two weeks. In those 13 games, use lineups #1 & #2 5X each; and #3, #4 & #5 1X each. That means within a fortnight:

Thome would be not start but be used as a pinch hitter in 3 games;

PK, Dye and Quentin each would DH once;

BA would start in CF 8 games and be a defensive replacement in up to 5;

Swish would start 8 games, 5 of those in CF.

Daver
09-27-2008, 06:01 PM
:o:

You're penciling BA into CF?

Let me mark this down!

:tongue:

I doubt Brian Anderson will be on the team next season.

Jerome
09-27-2008, 06:08 PM
maybe Kenny could convince another GM to read the Swisher chapter of Moneyball, and then swing a trade for him right after he gets done reading it

eastchicagosoxfan
09-27-2008, 06:18 PM
I doubt Brian Anderson will be on the team next season.
His contract is up at the end of the year. Is he arbitration eligible?

canOcorn
09-27-2008, 06:21 PM
maybe Kenny could convince another GM to read the Swisher chapter of Moneyball, and then swing a trade for him right after he gets done reading it

Maybe Kenny could convince another team to take Ozzie off his hands and then find a manager that stresses fundamentals.

Daver
09-27-2008, 06:24 PM
His contract is up at the end of the year. Is he arbitration eligible?

The Sox own his rights for at least another three years, I'm not going to check his actual service time right now.

Brian26
09-27-2008, 06:48 PM
I doubt Brian Anderson will be on the team next season.

Harrelson has dropped enough hints throughout the season that BA will probably be with another team next year.

As much as some people disagree, I still think Hawk is involved in personnel decisions at least on a casual basis with Ozzie and KW. He doesn't have final say by any means, but he's still got a little pull in the organization- case in point was him talking Ozzie into letting Dewayne Wise start some games down the stretch.

canOcorn
09-27-2008, 06:54 PM
Harrelson has dropped enough hints throughout the season that BA will probably be with another team next year.

As much as some people disagree, I still think Hawk is involved in personal decisions at least on a casual basis with Ozzie and KW. He doesn't have final say by any means, but he's still got a little pull in the organization- case in point was him talking Ozzie into letting Dewayne Wise start some games down the stretch.

Ozzie should be fired if that's the case.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2008, 08:17 PM
Harrelson has dropped enough hints throughout the season that BA will probably be with another team next year.

As much as some people disagree, I still think Hawk is involved in personal decisions at least on a casual basis with Ozzie and KW. He doesn't have final say by any means, but he's still got a little pull in the organization- case in point was him talking Ozzie into letting Dewayne Wise start some games down the stretch.

I agree. And I also think he's at least in part responsible for the Sox having a "power first" organizational philosophy. Look at all the Sox hitters who hit just like he did as a player. Greg Walker was just like Hawk as a hitter: high power, high strikeout, low-average. No wonder Hawk thinks he's a good hitting coach. Hawk is JR's longest-tenured employee on the "baseball side" of the organization. JR wanted him to be GM. After his post-GM "exile," JR brought him back. He's the most influential "informal" advisor in the organization.

jdm2662
09-27-2008, 08:21 PM
Ozzie should be fired if that's the case.

Agreed on that. I seriously hope Kenny and Ozzie doesn't take input from a fricking self know it all announcer. You'd like to think they learned their lessons the first time around...

Jurr
09-27-2008, 08:30 PM
Agreed on that. I seriously hope Kenny and Ozzie doesn't take input from a fricking self know it all announcer. You'd like to think they learned their lessons the first time around...
I thought Fisk was great in the outfield.....:o:

jdm2662
09-27-2008, 08:39 PM
I thought Fisk was great in the outfield.....:o:

Firing Tony LaRussa because he didn't like him, Steve Carlton, and trading Bobby Bonilla are the three things this 9-year-old remembered during the Hawk regime. Yep, how I surived in the late 80s is beyond me. :?:

Brian26
09-27-2008, 08:54 PM
Agreed on that. I seriously hope Kenny and Ozzie doesn't take input from a fricking self know it all announcer. You'd like to think they learned their lessons the first time around...

Remember who begged KW to sign AJ.

AZChiSoxFan
09-27-2008, 09:48 PM
It's reasonable if another GM thinks he'll produce. But Bill Bavasi's out of a job, so there's really nowhere else to send him.


:rolling::rolling:

AZChiSoxFan
09-27-2008, 09:59 PM
I thought Fisk was great in the outfield.....:o:

LOL....This thread is killing me.

nasox
09-27-2008, 10:05 PM
Again and again, Cowley shows what a complete douchbag he is.

If this is a reference to what I think it is...

HAHAHAHA

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2008, 12:39 AM
I don't understand the Swisher hate at all.

I never understood the favoritism be got from Ozzie either by being a defensive replacement for PK. unless it was because of his injuries.I don't remember Swisher being a pure defensive replacement for Konerko in a game. There have been several times that a pinch-runner was sent in for Paulie late in a game, and Swisher took over first the next half-inning, but not purely a situation of taking Paulie out for Swisher defensively.

JB98
09-28-2008, 12:46 AM
:o:

You're penciling BA into CF?

Let me mark this down!

:tongue:

We've got three holes to fill - 3B, CF and whichever middle infield spot isn't going to be occupied by Ramirez.

How realistic is it to fill all three from outside the organization? We don't have any middle infield prospects. Fields looks like a bust, so forget about him as the 2009 3B.

If we can get a 2B and a 3B from outside the organization that can help us both offensively and defensively, then I can live with BA and his crappy bat in CF.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2008, 07:13 AM
We've got three holes to fill - 3B, CF and whichever middle infield spot isn't going to be occupied by Ramirez.

How realistic is it to fill all three from outside the organization? We don't have any middle infield prospects. Fields looks like a bust, so forget about him as the 2009 3B.

If we can get a 2B and a 3B from outside the organization that can help us both offensively and defensively, then I can live with BA and his crappy bat in CF.

I agree on all counts. I was just busting JB's chops because he's a notorious BA-hater. :tongue:

Frontman
09-28-2008, 07:52 AM
Harrelson has dropped enough hints throughout the season that BA will probably be with another team next year.

As much as some people disagree, I still think Hawk is involved in personnel decisions at least on a casual basis with Ozzie and KW. He doesn't have final say by any means, but he's still got a little pull in the organization- case in point was him talking Ozzie into letting Dewayne Wise start some games down the stretch.

Any proof of that, or could it just be a case of Harrelson being around the team all the time to know how KW/Ozzie think?

voodoochile
09-28-2008, 09:14 AM
We've got three holes to fill - 3B, CF and whichever middle infield spot isn't going to be occupied by Ramirez.

How realistic is it to fill all three from outside the organization? We don't have any middle infield prospects. Fields looks like a bust, so forget about him as the 2009 3B.

If we can get a 2B and a 3B from outside the organization that can help us both offensively and defensively, then I can live with BA and his crappy bat in CF.

Actually, I'd consider giving Fields one more crack at the job with the assumption that Uribe would be signed to back him up if he fails. From the sounds of things Fields just had an awful year of luck compounded by injuries. They felt he was as ready defensively as he could be but went with Joe for obvious reasons. Then Fields got hurt and sat for a month+ at AAA and when he came back he couldn't figure out the defensive stuff Cora had coached him on.

I'd go Fields and Getz with Uribe as the super sub, put money into a 5th starter and see what they can work out in trade for a CF. Or if Getz or Fields are part of the trade package, then make a run at a FA to fill the slot.

manders_01
09-28-2008, 10:37 AM
I don't understand the Swisher hate at all.

Neither to do I. I think Swish has been a great addition to the team both on the field and in the clubhouse. And based on the comments and signage Friday night, Swish has psyched himself out in the box. As someone stated in another thread, I don't think his apparent mopping around the clubhouse is him pitching a fit about not getting starts. Swish seems like the guy who wants to help his team in any way he can. It seemed to me that he was upset that he couldn't help his team.

His teammates still have faith in him, I still have faith in him, I hope plenty of the fans still do too. I hope Swish is in a White Sox uniform for many years to come! :thumbsup:

tstrike2000
09-28-2008, 11:11 AM
I don't understand the Swisher hate at all.

You don't understand the hate because he's hitting something like .190 on the road overall and .200 from the right side of the plate? Nobody hates Swisher the person, he's a guy you root for. Swisher the player outside of 24 jacks is essentially a bench player.