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View Full Version : *Official* "Playoffs, playoffs"? need a drink Postgame thread, Part II


WhiteSox5187
09-26-2008, 01:09 AM
It probably wasn't held at the baggie dome either.
If it were held there, it would have been flipped, bounced off the turf, rolled into CF and stayed on its side, which, sadly, is what the Twins would have called.

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2008, 01:09 AM
Continue to rant.

doublem23
09-26-2008, 01:10 AM
Let the good times roll...

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:10 AM
****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ilsox7
09-26-2008, 01:11 AM
Let's talk about eclairs . . .

kitekrazy
09-26-2008, 01:12 AM
if it were held there, it would have been flipped, bounced off the turf, rolled into cf and stayed on its side, which, sadly, is what the twins would have called.

lol.

GoGoCrede
09-26-2008, 01:12 AM
I just remembered, whatever happened to Slowey's arm? That seems so long ago now.

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:14 AM
I like eclairs.

ilsox7
09-26-2008, 01:15 AM
I like eclairs.

Kirstin's in Burr Ridge makes the best ones.

DSpivack
09-26-2008, 01:15 AM
I'm 24 years old, became a Sox after my dad, a Cub fan but really a fan of both teams, took me to an ALCS game in 1993. The crowd was electric. Ever since I have been a diehard Sox fan.

I don't remember a worse feeling than I do right now. 2003 was bad, but at least they didn't choke as late in September then.

Can they still win the division? Sure. Is this a big improvement on 2007? Greatly. But I'm not really confident this weekend, not with what this team has shown in September. I don't know if they're pressing too much, or they don't have balls or heart or swagger or intangibles or if any of that is really just BS, but something just seems missing from this team. Confidence, perhaps. Whether it's just not the right collection of talent, or a lack of talent, or the manager is to blame, I am not quite sure. I am no baseball expert.

All I know is that I never been this dissapointed in a White Sox team. Certainly there have been worse ones, but never ones that have broken my heart, or at least it seems likely that they will, more than this team. I guess this is what 1967 felt like.

ode to veeck
09-26-2008, 01:15 AM
OK, I'll bid 5 tomatoes;

:tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward :tomatoaward

that can't be beat even with a straight flush category five dark cloud

Blueprint1
09-26-2008, 01:16 AM
I am done.

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:16 AM
:scratch: can't even get tomato award right...

EDIT: There you go!

CMPDragRacing
09-26-2008, 01:16 AM
im really thankfull that i work second shift because i was unable to watch this series if i would have been at home something large would have been thrown through my new tv. this team is horrible up in the dome. for the love of god i hope they sweep the indians this weekend.

i want this team to succeed so badly its not even funny.

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:17 AM
so who starts Sat. for the White Sox? Vazquez? Richard? Toby Hall?

Discuss.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:17 AM
Let's talk about eclairs . . .

Much like the French, the Sox waved the white flag this week.

ilsox7
09-26-2008, 01:18 AM
Much like the French, the Sox waved the white flag this week.

I bet the French make better custard than the 2008 White Sox.

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:19 AM
I bet the French make better custard than the 2008 White Sox.

How about Creme Brulee?

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2008, 01:20 AM
:scratch: can't even get tomato award right...Looks fine to me. :whistle:

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:20 AM
Looks fine to me. :whistle:


nothing a little editing can't fix

IronFisk
09-26-2008, 01:20 AM
I just remembered, whatever happened to Slowey's arm? That seems so long ago now.

Sad ain't it? Thought we were going to just waltz after that. Problem is, so did the Sox - shut out from that point forward :whiner:

Hmmm, I'd rather have lost it earlier than have them drag our hearts to the final week. I'd take a playoff loss easier than this. However, doesn't even touch into the galaxy of 1983 - that was pure pain. If I could survive that, anything else is a breeze!

Great run boys...

GO SOX!!!

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:21 AM
I am done.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/pix/fork.jpg

GoGoCrede
09-26-2008, 01:21 AM
Sad ain't it? Thought we were going to just waltz after that. Problem is, so did the Sox - shut out from that point forward :whiner:

Hmmm, I'd rather have lost it earlier than have them drag our hearts to the final week. I'd take a playoff loss easier than this. However, doesn't even touch into the galaxy of 1983 - that was pure pain. If I could survive that, anything else is a breeze!

Great run boys...

GO SOX!!!

I can still hear Hawk screaming, "HE THREW IT AWAY!"

PaleHoser
09-26-2008, 01:22 AM
so who starts Sat. for the White Sox? Vazquez? Richard? Toby Hall?

Discuss.

Let's see what happens Friday night. All I know is that I'd rather see anyone but Vazquez. Maybe pitch a reliever every inning - there's only 12 in the bullpen.

ilsox7
09-26-2008, 01:22 AM
How about Creme Brulee?

I hear OC makes a mean creme brulee. The Sox will certainly miss that post-game treat next year.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:23 AM
How about Creme Brulee?

It's spelled B-u-e-h-r-l-e, stupid. :rolleyes:

salty99
09-26-2008, 01:24 AM
I hear OC makes a mean creme brulee. The Sox will certainly miss that post-game treat next year.

Speaking of post-game treats, when is the last time we saw the Toby Hall pie-in-the-face? Seems like so long ago.....

Mr. White Sox
09-26-2008, 01:24 AM
angry buzzed off of wine rant:

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I never enjoy a White Sox-less post-season, and having one with a fawning Cubs-loving, Red Sox-loving media compounds the grrrrr.

GO DEVIL RAYS!

WisSoxFan
09-26-2008, 01:24 AM
I made this comment in an earlier post in part 1, but it got lost in the shuffle.

I believe the Sox scored in only five different innnings for this entire series. The Twins scored in five tonight. That says a lot, IMO.

JGarlandrules20
09-26-2008, 01:28 AM
Does anyone else feel a weird calm after all this?...

Maybe I've just been drained of all emotion. :(:

Konerko05
09-26-2008, 01:32 AM
I made this comment in an earlier post in part 1, but it got lost in the shuffle.

I believe the Sox scored in only five different innnings for this entire series. The Twins scored in five tonight. That says a lot, IMO.

Twins averages.
.299
.286
.330
.306
.274
.294
.295
.281
.262

White Sox averages.
.259
.283
.285
.247
.238
.244
.295
.280
.251

ode to veeck
09-26-2008, 01:33 AM
Much like the French, the Sox waved the white flag this week.

they're just not showing up until Yorktown

IJay22
09-26-2008, 01:35 AM
This was just a deflating loss. Like others, I had to have a drink or in my case a couple after this game lol. I think this season is over, but I REALLY hope they prove me wrong. The only guys I see safe on this team for next season is Quentin, Alexei Ramirez, Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, and Jenks. I guess I'll add Linebrink too. Other than that, the 09' white sox better look different or its gonna be a lot of trouble for the next couple of years. Now back to my vodka and oj. :gulp:

chisoxfanatic
09-26-2008, 01:40 AM
so who starts Sat. for the White Sox? Vazquez? Richard? Toby Hall?

Discuss.
:jaime
Put me in, coach! I'm ready to pitch...today!

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 01:40 AM
Konerko:

It's ironic but looking at the official box score I noticed the same thing. The Twins don't hit home runs but they do everything else that's needed to win games, they get on base, they get two out hits, the steal bases, they play exceptional defense and they bunt.

Looking back over the three games I just realized they used a bunt to score a run (or set up a run) in every game. I'd guess it's been ten years, maybe longer since the White Sox did something like that.

Again maybe something good in the long run comes out of this. Kenny can't be that stubborn, that obtuse, that egocentric that he doesn't see this all or nothing offense in the end, gets exactly that...nothing. I've got to think philosophical changes offensively are coming. Hell Ozzie's been screaming for it for the past two years.

Lip

Chisox353014
09-26-2008, 01:41 AM
Does anyone else feel a weird calm after all this?...

Maybe I've just been drained of all emotion. :(:

I do. The level of anxiety when we play this piece of **** team is just ridiculous. (But then every possible thing seems to go their way nearly every time.)
No matter what happens this weekend at least that's done with. I'm just glad I was at Sigur Ros tonight and didn't have to actually watch the last 6 innings happen.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:45 AM
Konerko:

It's ironic but looking at the official box score I noticed the same thing. The Twins don't hit home runs but they do everything else that's needed to win games, they get on base, they get two out hits, the steal bases, they play exceptional defense and they bunt.

Let's not be fooled with this Twins team. They stepped up to the task these last few days to play the White Sox tough like they always do. But I've watched them play other teams this year, and they've never looked as good as they did this series.

I said it earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins crap their pants tomorrow. The White Sox are gone, in come the Royals...I guess we'll see if that intensity keeps up.

hi im skot
09-26-2008, 01:50 AM
Does anyone else feel a weird calm after all this?...

Maybe I've just been drained of all emotion. :(:

Yep. Of course, watching "The Office" on DVR certainly helped my mood.

OMG!!!!

chisoxfanatic
09-26-2008, 01:52 AM
I said it earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins crap their pants tomorrow. The White Sox are gone, in come the Royals...I guess we'll see if that intensity keeps up.
Did you SEE how pumped up that Twins team is? They have the scent of a divisional title in their collective olfactory nerves right now. I highly doubt that will happen, which means we will NEED to sweep this series.

God, do I hope Lee isn't able to pitch Sunday.

oeo
09-26-2008, 01:54 AM
Did you SEE how pumped up that Twins team is? They have the scent of a divisional title in their collective olfactory nerves right now. I highly doubt that will happen, which means we will NEED to sweep this series.

Yeah, I saw it. They always look like that when they play the Sox. :shrug:

If only they could play like that against everyone, they might have a few World Series in the past 6 years.

chisoxfanatic
09-26-2008, 01:58 AM
If only they could play like that against everyone, they might have a few World Series in the past 6 years.
That's what pisses me off the most about them. They are good in the regular season; but, they can't do **** in the playoffs. So, they basically waste a spot in the playoff bracket for another team who might actually do something in October. It really pisses me off.

TDog
09-26-2008, 02:02 AM
The Royals have to beat the Twins 8 times in 3 games for us to win the division, to make up for the four straight we're going to lose after this.

It's ****in' over. Just stop with the it's not over stuff. It's not cute, and just makes the rest of us feel worse.

I have tried to file this post twice without success. The most recent time, the thread was closed by the time I pushed enter, and the post was lost. But I know the above quote is shared by a number of smug, self-loathing White Sox fans, so the response shouldn't be limited to the author of the above garbage, anyway. I spent the last two days in San Francisco and returned home with a serious sunburn (seriously, who gets a sunburn in late September in San Francisco?) and the White Sox in extra innings with the Twins. My face hurt. My head hurts. And I have to get this off my chest.

I have never triggered the language filter at WSI. I consider myself intelligent enough to be able to communicate my thoughts and ideas without the use of profanity. However, the above post nearly inspired asterisks to spew forth from my keyboard. I don't think it is possible to make you feel worse because you seem to revel in the satisfaction that comes with seemingly being right about White Sox failures.

I know I was critical of the Nick Swisher deal since it was made -- not because of who the White Sox gave up, but because I have never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter. I do like Nick Swisher from what I've seen of him. I have always supported him and wished him well, even when I suggested in May he shouldn't be starting. I have never gloated over his failures, or the failures of Josh Fields, although in March I advocated keeping him at AAA this season. I grew up a White Sox fan when it took character to be a White Sox fan, because there wasn't any bandwagon to hop onto. And I can be as pessimistic as anyone, having seen play that would make younger fans cry. What irritates me about self-loathing White Sox fans is that they seem to express more animosity, often more arbitrarily, than White-Sox hating Cubs fans do.

I missed following the White Sox lose two games they should have won, and would have had a better chance of winning if they were playing in a real baseball stadium and not the home to a hybrid of arena baseball. In the Metrodome, I once saw Jack McDowell lose a shutout and a game when what appeared to be a two-out single bounced high over Harold Baines' head to score the winning run. I saw games at Metropolitan stadium. I saw Joe Horlen lose there. I saw Wilbur Wood win a game there that Hoyt Wilhelm came in to save. The barn the Twins call home is a waste of real estate in comparison. It angers me that major league baseball sanctions play there. It especially angers me that a White Sox season could be decided there.

A lot of WSI posters gave up up on the season when Jose Contreras went down. A lot gave up on the season when Carlos Quentin went down. Some who remained gave up on the season when they assumed Paul Konerko was done for the year. A lot of the people giving up now have given up at least before. I haven't given up. I know the White Sox haven't given up (despite the assumption of self-loathing White Sox fans).

The Twins can't go to the postseason unless the White Sox lose more than the Twins do.

Meanwhile, the Royals have been playing good baseball. They swept three in Detroit after losing two of three against the Sox after winning seven straight. Two weeks ago, they beat the Twins in a game Liriano started. Liriano goes Friday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins experience a bit of a letdown. The Royals certainly will be the looser team Friday night. The Royals, who care about staying out of last place, easily could win two of three. A sweep would surprise me, but it's possible. The Royals have some players who can play the kind of garbage the Metrodome offers.

Even if the Twins sweep the Royals, the White Sox are only a five-game home winning streak from the ALDS. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's true that what kills you indeed kills you, but the White Sox haven't been killed. They could have a finest hour in store for them.

I haven't given up on the 2008 White Sox. And I don't have much use for people who have.

Chicago5oooh
09-26-2008, 02:10 AM
I have tried to file this post twice without success. The most recent time, the thread was closed by the time I pushed enter, and the post was lost. But I know the above quote is shared by a number of smug, self-loathing White Sox fans, so the response shouldn't be limited to the author of the above garbage, anyway. I spent the last two days in San Francisco and returned home with a serious sunburn (seriously, who gets a sunburn in late September in San Francisco?) and the White Sox in extra innings with the Twins. My face hurt. My head hurts. And I have to get this off my chest.

I have never triggered the language filter at WSI. I consider myself intelligent enough to be able to communicate my thoughts and ideas without the use of profanity. However, the above post nearly inspired asterisks to spew forth from my keyboard. I don't think it is possible to make you feel worse because you seem to revel in the satisfaction that comes with seemingly being right about White Sox failures.

I know I was critical of the Nick Swisher deal since it was made -- not because of who the White Sox gave up, but because I have never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter. I do like Nick Swisher from what I've seen of him. I have always supported him and wished him well, even when I suggested in May he shouldn't be starting. I have never gloated over his failures, or the failures of Josh Fields, although in March I advocated keeping him at AAA this season. I grew up a White Sox fan when it took character to be a White Sox fan, because there wasn't any bandwagon to hop onto. And I can be as pessimistic as anyone, having seen play that would make younger fans cry. What irritates me about self-loathing White Sox fans is that they seem to express more animosity, often more arbitrarily, than White-Sox hating Cubs fans do.

I missed following the White Sox lose two games they should have won, and would have had a better chance of winning if they were playing in a real baseball stadium and not the home to a hybrid of arena baseball. In the Metrodome, I once saw Jack McDowell lose a shutout and a game when what appeared to be a two-out single bounced high over Harold Baines' head to score the winning run. I saw games at Metropolitan stadium. I saw Joe Horlen lose there. I saw Wilbur Wood win a game there that Hoyt Wilhelm came in to save. The barn the Twins call home is a waste of real estate in comparison. It angers me that major league baseball sanctions play there. It especially angers me that a White Sox season could be decided there.

A lot of WSI posters gave up up on the season when Jose Contreras went down. A lot gave up on the season when Carlos Quentin went down. Some who remained gave up on the season when they assumed Paul Konerko was done for the year. A lot of the people giving up now have given up at least before. I haven't given up. I know the White Sox haven't given up (despite the assumption of self-loathing White Sox fans).

The Twins can't go to the postseason unless the White Sox lose more than the Twins do.

Meanwhile, the Royals have been playing good baseball. They swept three in Detroit after losing two of three against the Sox after winning seven straight. Two weeks ago, they beat the Twins in a game Liriano started. Liriano goes Friday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins experience a bit of a letdown. The Royals certainly will be the looser team Friday night. The Royals, who care about staying out of last place, easily could win two of three. A sweep would surprise me, but it's possible. The Royals have some players who can play the kind of garbage the Metrodome offers.

Even if the Twins sweep the Royals, the White Sox are only a five-game home winning streak from the ALDS. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's true that what kills you indeed kills you, but the White Sox haven't been killed. They could have a finest hour in store for them.

I haven't given up on the 2008 White Sox. And I don't have much use for people who have.

Amen.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 02:13 AM
T-Dog:

My biggest concern is apparently what's going on in the clubhouse. It seems these guys have fallen apart mentally and are now blaming others, pointing fingers, looking out for themselves.

That's very dangerous and does not reflect well on Ozzie.

Lip

CHISOXFAN13
09-26-2008, 02:15 AM
T-Dog:

My biggest concern is apparently what's going on in the clubhouse. It seems these guys have fallen apart mentally and are now blaming others, pointing fingers, looking out for themselves.

That's very dangerous and does not reflect well on Ozzie.

Lip

I hope we make the playoffs, but I also can't wait for the biggest headcase of all to be playing shortstop elsewhere next year. Have fun on your fourth team in five years.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:34 AM
I hope we make the playoffs, but I also can't wait for the biggest headcase of all to be playing shortstop elsewhere next year. Have fun on your fourth team in five years.

Amen to that. Cabrera isn't a good enough player, nor has he been a member of the White Sox long enough, to be saying some of the things he has said.

Konerko05
09-26-2008, 02:38 AM
Amen to that. Cabrera isn't a good enough player, nor has he been a member of the White Sox long enough, to be saying some of the things he has said.

I actually liked what Ozzie said about Cabrera's rants. I'm paraphrasing, but it was something along the lines of "if you want to be a leader, you have to start in Spring training.... not with 5 games left."

Sockinchisox
09-26-2008, 02:44 AM
Let's not be fooled with this Twins team. They stepped up to the task these last few days to play the White Sox tough like they always do. But I've watched them play other teams this year, and they've never looked as good as they did this series.

I said it earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins crap their pants tomorrow. The White Sox are gone, in come the Royals...I guess we'll see if that intensity keeps up.

Their act doesn't fly on the road either, they rarely get bloops and dunks on the road. And you're right when they're on the road, they look..well like us on the road.

doublem23
09-26-2008, 02:48 AM
I have tried to file this post twice without success. The most recent time, the thread was closed by the time I pushed enter, and the post was lost. But I know the above quote is shared by a number of smug, self-loathing White Sox fans, so the response shouldn't be limited to the author of the above garbage, anyway. I spent the last two days in San Francisco and returned home with a serious sunburn (seriously, who gets a sunburn in late September in San Francisco?) and the White Sox in extra innings with the Twins. My face hurt. My head hurts. And I have to get this off my chest.

I have never triggered the language filter at WSI. I consider myself intelligent enough to be able to communicate my thoughts and ideas without the use of profanity. However, the above post nearly inspired asterisks to spew forth from my keyboard. I don't think it is possible to make you feel worse because you seem to revel in the satisfaction that comes with seemingly being right about White Sox failures.

I know I was critical of the Nick Swisher deal since it was made -- not because of who the White Sox gave up, but because I have never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter. I do like Nick Swisher from what I've seen of him. I have always supported him and wished him well, even when I suggested in May he shouldn't be starting. I have never gloated over his failures, or the failures of Josh Fields, although in March I advocated keeping him at AAA this season. I grew up a White Sox fan when it took character to be a White Sox fan, because there wasn't any bandwagon to hop onto. And I can be as pessimistic as anyone, having seen play that would make younger fans cry. What irritates me about self-loathing White Sox fans is that they seem to express more animosity, often more arbitrarily, than White-Sox hating Cubs fans do.

I missed following the White Sox lose two games they should have won, and would have had a better chance of winning if they were playing in a real baseball stadium and not the home to a hybrid of arena baseball. In the Metrodome, I once saw Jack McDowell lose a shutout and a game when what appeared to be a two-out single bounced high over Harold Baines' head to score the winning run. I saw games at Metropolitan stadium. I saw Joe Horlen lose there. I saw Wilbur Wood win a game there that Hoyt Wilhelm came in to save. The barn the Twins call home is a waste of real estate in comparison. It angers me that major league baseball sanctions play there. It especially angers me that a White Sox season could be decided there.

A lot of WSI posters gave up up on the season when Jose Contreras went down. A lot gave up on the season when Carlos Quentin went down. Some who remained gave up on the season when they assumed Paul Konerko was done for the year. A lot of the people giving up now have given up at least before. I haven't given up. I know the White Sox haven't given up (despite the assumption of self-loathing White Sox fans).

The Twins can't go to the postseason unless the White Sox lose more than the Twins do.

Meanwhile, the Royals have been playing good baseball. They swept three in Detroit after losing two of three against the Sox after winning seven straight. Two weeks ago, they beat the Twins in a game Liriano started. Liriano goes Friday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins experience a bit of a letdown. The Royals certainly will be the looser team Friday night. The Royals, who care about staying out of last place, easily could win two of three. A sweep would surprise me, but it's possible. The Royals have some players who can play the kind of garbage the Metrodome offers.

Even if the Twins sweep the Royals, the White Sox are only a five-game home winning streak from the ALDS. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's true that what kills you indeed kills you, but the White Sox haven't been killed. They could have a finest hour in store for them.

I haven't given up on the 2008 White Sox. And I don't have much use for people who have.

Sorry for closing the thread on you. :redface: When the replies get in the 490's you got to make sure you copy your post before you send it.

But I agree. Even if this season is over, that means I only have 3 games left to enjoy before another, cold brutal winter comes.

RockJock07
09-26-2008, 02:53 AM
T-Dog:

My biggest concern is apparently what's going on in the clubhouse. It seems these guys have fallen apart mentally and are now blaming others, pointing fingers, looking out for themselves.

That's very dangerous and does not reflect well on Ozzie.

Lip

That's the wildcard in all of this, yes they can still get in, but mentally, where is this team right now? I didn't hear much about how the clubhouse was afterward but in the one interview I saw with Ozzie he appeared quite calm. My reaction right afterward was one of anger, like everyone here, I hoped that Ozzie just went balistic on his players and any reporter dumb enough to ask what happened tonight.

After 3 hours, I've calmed down, I'm still very disappointed but I've calmed down. My hope is that Ozzie talked to the guys after and said something to the effect of: "look, we played awful this series and roadtrip but there is still light however dim it may be, lets go out in front of our fans tomorrow and play our game."

I'm so torn because on one hand this team could win out because we all know they are good enough to do so but on the other hand this was the biggest series in 3 seasons and they came out lifeless and didn't do anything right in 3 games and now are left crushed limping back home after a 3-7 roadtrip.

I think the Sox could play with just about anyone in these playoffs, I can't sit here and honestly say that they are the most talented but anything can happen.

Whatever happens I hope Kenny gives Ozzie what he wants, speed and pitching. Say what you want about the starters and bullpen but the offense lost this division back in May and June and something needs to be done about it.

DSpivack
09-26-2008, 02:56 AM
T-Dog:

My biggest concern is apparently what's going on in the clubhouse. It seems these guys have fallen apart mentally and are now blaming others, pointing fingers, looking out for themselves.

That's very dangerous and does not reflect well on Ozzie.

Lip

If this is indeed true, that Ozzie has lost the team, then there is absolutely no way he should be back as manager next season.

Rockabilly
09-26-2008, 02:59 AM
This team should be torn apart after the season.. Which most likely will be sunday..

We have played like **** for the last 6 weeks...

Good BYE to

Konerko
Griffey
Crede
Javy
Contreras
Hall
Logan


I would keep OC he is the only player who has done any good in the last few weeks

JB98
09-26-2008, 03:05 AM
This team should be torn apart after the season.. Which most likely will be sunday..

We have played like **** for the last 6 weeks...

Good BYE to

Konerko
Griffey
Crede
Javy
Contreras
Hall
Logan


I would keep OC he is the only player who has done any good in the last few weeks

Vazquez isn't going anywhere. He's here to stay, like him or not. Hopefully, he will enter next season as our No. 5 starter instead of our No. 2.

DSpivack
09-26-2008, 03:14 AM
This team should be torn apart after the season.. Which most likely will be sunday..

We have played like **** for the last 6 weeks...

Good BYE to

Konerko
Griffey
Crede
Javy
Contreras
Hall
Logan


I would keep OC he is the only player who has done any good in the last few weeks

Vazquez isn't going anywhere. He's here to stay, like him or not. Hopefully, he will enter next season as our No. 5 starter instead of our No. 2.

Agreed, Vazquez isn't a top of the line starter, but for his durability and price, he's definitely worth keeping. Konerko has no real trade value, either, we just have to hope he bounces back next season. I have no reason to think that he won't. Logan and Crede are gone. Hall, not sure about his contract situation; it'd be nice to have a backup catcher with a real arm. Griffey could possibly be back, but that depends if he wants to come back as a bench player earning not very much money. I somehow doubt that. Contreras I doubt plays at all next year; we'll see what his injury situation is and what insurance that the Sox may have had on him.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 03:22 AM
Spivack:

Well Ozzie insists he hasn't lost the team and he should know I guess.

Cabrera is gone folks, there is ZERO possibility of him coming back. He's wanted out since early in the year when he was quoted as saying how much he missed the Angels, the organization and playing there.

The Sox will offer arbitration to get the two draft picks but there is no chance of him returning. Ditto for Crede. Griffey is probably gone. Contreras is done because of his injury. Based on what Ozzie has said Boone Logan is out and based on what some (including Chris Rongey) are saying, Fields may be too.

Hall is a free agent but with very little in the sparse minor league system he may be back.

Lip

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:31 AM
I have tried to file this post twice without success. The most recent time, the thread was closed by the time I pushed enter, and the post was lost. But I know the above quote is shared by a number of smug, self-loathing White Sox fans, so the response shouldn't be limited to the author of the above garbage, anyway. I spent the last two days in San Francisco and returned home with a serious sunburn (seriously, who gets a sunburn in late September in San Francisco?) and the White Sox in extra innings with the Twins. My face hurt. My head hurts. And I have to get this off my chest.

I have never triggered the language filter at WSI. I consider myself intelligent enough to be able to communicate my thoughts and ideas without the use of profanity. However, the above post nearly inspired asterisks to spew forth from my keyboard. I don't think it is possible to make you feel worse because you seem to revel in the satisfaction that comes with seemingly being right about White Sox failures.

I know I was critical of the Nick Swisher deal since it was made -- not because of who the White Sox gave up, but because I have never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter. I do like Nick Swisher from what I've seen of him. I have always supported him and wished him well, even when I suggested in May he shouldn't be starting. I have never gloated over his failures, or the failures of Josh Fields, although in March I advocated keeping him at AAA this season. I grew up a White Sox fan when it took character to be a White Sox fan, because there wasn't any bandwagon to hop onto. And I can be as pessimistic as anyone, having seen play that would make younger fans cry. What irritates me about self-loathing White Sox fans is that they seem to express more animosity, often more arbitrarily, than White-Sox hating Cubs fans do.

I missed following the White Sox lose two games they should have won, and would have had a better chance of winning if they were playing in a real baseball stadium and not the home to a hybrid of arena baseball. In the Metrodome, I once saw Jack McDowell lose a shutout and a game when what appeared to be a two-out single bounced high over Harold Baines' head to score the winning run. I saw games at Metropolitan stadium. I saw Joe Horlen lose there. I saw Wilbur Wood win a game there that Hoyt Wilhelm came in to save. The barn the Twins call home is a waste of real estate in comparison. It angers me that major league baseball sanctions play there. It especially angers me that a White Sox season could be decided there.

A lot of WSI posters gave up up on the season when Jose Contreras went down. A lot gave up on the season when Carlos Quentin went down. Some who remained gave up on the season when they assumed Paul Konerko was done for the year. A lot of the people giving up now have given up at least before. I haven't given up. I know the White Sox haven't given up (despite the assumption of self-loathing White Sox fans).

The Twins can't go to the postseason unless the White Sox lose more than the Twins do.

Meanwhile, the Royals have been playing good baseball. They swept three in Detroit after losing two of three against the Sox after winning seven straight. Two weeks ago, they beat the Twins in a game Liriano started. Liriano goes Friday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins experience a bit of a letdown. The Royals certainly will be the looser team Friday night. The Royals, who care about staying out of last place, easily could win two of three. A sweep would surprise me, but it's possible. The Royals have some players who can play the kind of garbage the Metrodome offers.

Even if the Twins sweep the Royals, the White Sox are only a five-game home winning streak from the ALDS. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's true that what kills you indeed kills you, but the White Sox haven't been killed. They could have a finest hour in store for them.

I haven't given up on the 2008 White Sox. And I don't have much use for people who have.

1. This sucks. This hurts. I don't pretend to know what it was like for fans in 1970 or even in 1999, but I bet it didn't hurt as much as this does. Then again, we'll always have Paris, err I mean, we'll always have 2005; nobody can take that away... not even the Cubs, heaven forbid, winning it all this year.

2. I have no interest in 'I told you so'-ing for the sake of 'I told you so'-ing; not unless there is a valuable lesson to be learned for other, less discerning Sox fans. I've tried to warn people about Greg Walker having looong outlived his usefulness with this particular collection of hitters; and tried to expose Ozzie Guillen for the self-centered, classless ignoramus that he is and has always been......... But I honestly belived in this team - hell I thought that Sox had this divison won by 5+ games, that even Ozzie couldn't screw this up. Oh how wrong I was on that last account.

3. 'Good all-around baseball' is all I asked for going into the series. Not specific results - because you can't always get them in this crazy unpredictable game - but at least I expected the team to show up WITHOUT fear, WITHOUT over-thinking, WITHOUT personal agendas. I hoped in vain. Minnesota was struggling coming into the series; all the pressure was on them. All the match-ups favored the Sox - talent-wise if nothing else.

And yet... between our Starters putting runners on base in the first 2 innings like there was no tomorrow......... Our hitters all but conceeding the outer half of the plate, for the most part unable to handle even rolling breaking pitches......... Our defense displaying even less range than what we're accustomed to seeing - not that they were helped by some strange-ass defensive alignment ........ Our best reliever giving up 0-2 XBH to borderline AAAA talents in a super-crucial situation........ No running game to speak off, while the Twins took extra base seemingly at will.... .......Manager, in addition to trotting out moronic line-ups driven by irrationality and personal gripes than baseball sense, failing to substitute for a hapless LH with a southpaw on the mound late in the game while ahead.......... 3 different instances of a Sox player seemingly forgetting how many outs there were..... etc, etc, etc.......... That was not good all-around baseball, suffice it to say.

No, this was a classic textbook choke job.

The only positive is that this humbling experience may force some people on the team to spend some much needed time both in front of a mirror & in the batting cage. There are 4 games left to save the season.

Otherwise, the hundreds (thousands, for some people) of $$$ & hundreds of hours spent on this underachieving team that we'll never get back, will have been pretty much for naught.

TDog
09-26-2008, 03:48 AM
Sorry for closing the thread on you. :redface: When the replies get in the 490's you got to make sure you copy your post before you send it.

But I agree. Even if this season is over, that means I only have 3 games left to enjoy before another, cold brutal winter comes.

I know I should have copied my post, although I didn't notice the high post count in the thread.. This isn't the first time I've posted into a closed thread, and I've never complained because I understood it was my own fault. Tonight I'm physically sore, seriously sunburned, and the only thing I find more irritating than two one-run losses to the Twins is the I told you so crowd. My apologies if it sounded as if I was whining about the mods doing heir job.

It's Dankerific
09-26-2008, 04:36 AM
Ozzie Guillen, MANAGER OF THE ****ING YEAR

PeteWard
09-26-2008, 05:10 AM
Much like the French, the Sox waved the white flag this week.

They actually had the highest casualties in WW I. They fought like dogs. And died like dogs. Historically, the Italians were much more prone to giving up--or switching sides--than the Frogs.

Dan H
09-26-2008, 06:09 AM
I agree with Adele H. Couldn't have said it better.

harwar
09-26-2008, 06:54 AM
Ramblings' from an insane White Sox fan ..
I might be the only fan not shocked by this as i expected the first 2 losses but i thought that we would AT LEAST (just barely) win the last one.:mad:
I realize that Griffey hit some home runs but i'd rather he was a left-handed bat off the bench.I'm pretty sure that he actually retired already but no one has the nerve to tell him..
Dye stopped hitting when Carlos Q. went down and that's not a surprise,but combined with some of the weird routes that he is taking to fly ball's this past month,i'm wondering if he doesn't have a problem with his eyes..
I never thought that Swish would ever loose that smile of his but it has been replaced by a grim mask..
I really hate to see Alexi R. starting to take on the bad habits of some of these guys .. i watched him make adjustments all year long during his at bats .. and now he seems to be back on his heels more .. swinging for the fences ..
Orlando C. came aboard and first i was happy .. then i was disappointed .. now i see they only guy on the team that seems to even care about what is happening ..
I would like to see this team run like a football team with Don C. in TOTAL control of the pitching staff .. he sets the rotation .. manages the bullpen .. and so on ..
I'm really hoping for a change in the lineup next year as i have heard 2 scouts say that they are amazed that a team that scores the great majority of their runs via the home run .. and only the home run .. have such a good winning percentage ..
I remember Black Jack saying to Farmer that he would much rather pitch to a team like the White Sox over the twins and that he would Have "no problem" getting them to get themselves out.
It appears to me that they ARE beaten and HAVE given up .. the stress must be unbelievable ..
All that being said .. i'm a pretty sick guy and in a wheel chair but i will be at ALL THREE GAMES this weekend cheering on the team that i love and i will never give up on them ...
GO WHITE SOX ...

white sox bill
09-26-2008, 07:27 AM
Since I get up at 4:45, once I saw Twinks tie it, I cashed it in and went to bed full knowing out boyzz would blow another one. Maybe we should have forfeited, as was suggested in newspaper. It was thinking outside the box, but basically we gave up anyway.

I would bet my life and my lifes savings that if the Twinks played all 162 games at the Dome, they would win 125 of them.

We're still in it! Just need a little help from our friends in Missouri!

Thome25
09-26-2008, 07:31 AM
Ramblings' from an insane White Sox fan ..
I might be the only fan not shocked by this as i expected the first 2 losses but i thought that we would AT LEAST (just barely) win the last one.:mad:
I realize that Griffey hit some home runs but i'd rather he was a left-handed bat off the bench.I'm pretty sure that he actually retired already but no one has the nerve to tell him..
Dye stopped hitting when Carlos Q. went down and that's not a surprise,but combined with some of the weird routes that he is taking to fly ball's this past month,i'm wondering if he doesn't have a problem with his eyes..
I never thought that Swish would ever loose that smile of his but it has been replaced by a grim mask..
I really hate to see Alexi R. starting to take on the bad habits of some of these guys .. i watched him make adjustments all year long during his at bats .. and now he seems to be back on his heels more .. swinging for the fences ..
Orlando C. came aboard and first i was happy .. then i was disappointed .. now i see they only guy on the team that seems to even care about what is happening ..
I would like to see this team run like a football team with Don C. in TOTAL control of the pitching staff .. he sets the rotation .. manages the bullpen .. and so on ..
I'm really hoping for a change in the lineup next year as i have heard 2 scouts say that they are amazed that a team that scores the great majority of their runs via the home run .. and only the home run .. have such a good winning percentage ..
I remember Black Jack saying to Farmer that he would much rather pitch to a team like the White Sox over the twins and that he would Have "no problem" getting them to get themselves out.
It appears to me that they ARE beaten and HAVE given up .. the stress must be unbelievable ..
All that being said .. i'm a pretty sick guy and in a wheel chair but i will be at ALL THREE GAMES this weekend cheering on the team that i love and i will never give up on them ...
GO WHITE SOX ...

Good observations!!......I'm sorry to hear about your health. Good luck to you......I hope everything turns out alright with that.

VenturaFan23
09-26-2008, 08:25 AM
I hate both the Twins and Sox for obvious reasons right now. Ugh.

Dice
09-26-2008, 08:30 AM
http://thumbnail.search.aolcdn.com/truveo/images/thumbnails/8F/EF/8FEFEFB9E703F779A2B96B.jpg

"We couldn't do diddly-pooh offensively"

alohafri
09-26-2008, 08:31 AM
We're still in it! Just need a little help from our friends in Missouri!

They have shut down their #1, Greinke. They aren't going to be any help.

TomBradley72
09-26-2008, 08:57 AM
We just don't have the organizational depth to respond to injuries. TCQ goes down and we end up w/D Wise in LF for the pennant race. Ken Griffey is by far the lowest quality CF starting for any of the teams in the post season or still in the hunt. Dye is out of gas. At his age he needs days off..we can't give them to him because we don't have the depth. Same with Ramirez. He's needed an "Iguchi type work load" in his 1st full season in the bigs. Ever since we lost Crede (so Uribe covers 3rd, because one of our top prospects, Fields, can't be trusted on defense) then Getz...we just have to keep putting Alexei out there. No meaningful bullpen help when Linebrink goes down ot Dotel and Logan fall off the cliff. Richard struggled to replace Contreras which led to Ozzie's "4 man rotation" which I think hurt Javy but also led to very high pitch counts for Floyd.

KW has overseen the minor league system for over a decade in one capacity or another. The buck stops with him. The line up and pitching staff that face the Twins this week was not a post season quality line up.

tstrike2000
09-26-2008, 09:05 AM
They have shut down their #1, Greinke. They aren't going to be any help.

Hawk (mainly) and DJ were whining about that last night because they said they're supposed to be pitching their best during a pennant race. I was thinking, "More idiotic comments from Hawk." If the Royals were the ones in the pennat race then of course they'll keep him pitching, but since they're not playing for crap and on the road, they can do whatever the hell they want.

The Sox shouldn't have to rely on the Royals as they had to really just win one game and couldn't do it with their bullpen implosion with an offense that can't hit or beat a senior citizens track team. To a Toons team playing well or not, we have to sweep and hope for that Monday game to run the table, so to speak.

ImaGrinder
09-26-2008, 09:06 AM
I have tried to file this post twice without success. The most recent time, the thread was closed by the time I pushed enter, and the post was lost. But I know the above quote is shared by a number of smug, self-loathing White Sox fans, so the response shouldn't be limited to the author of the above garbage, anyway. I spent the last two days in San Francisco and returned home with a serious sunburn (seriously, who gets a sunburn in late September in San Francisco?) and the White Sox in extra innings with the Twins. My face hurt. My head hurts. And I have to get this off my chest.

I have never triggered the language filter at WSI. I consider myself intelligent enough to be able to communicate my thoughts and ideas without the use of profanity. However, the above post nearly inspired asterisks to spew forth from my keyboard. I don't think it is possible to make you feel worse because you seem to revel in the satisfaction that comes with seemingly being right about White Sox failures.

I know I was critical of the Nick Swisher deal since it was made -- not because of who the White Sox gave up, but because I have never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter. I do like Nick Swisher from what I've seen of him. I have always supported him and wished him well, even when I suggested in May he shouldn't be starting. I have never gloated over his failures, or the failures of Josh Fields, although in March I advocated keeping him at AAA this season. I grew up a White Sox fan when it took character to be a White Sox fan, because there wasn't any bandwagon to hop onto. And I can be as pessimistic as anyone, having seen play that would make younger fans cry. What irritates me about self-loathing White Sox fans is that they seem to express more animosity, often more arbitrarily, than White-Sox hating Cubs fans do.

I missed following the White Sox lose two games they should have won, and would have had a better chance of winning if they were playing in a real baseball stadium and not the home to a hybrid of arena baseball. In the Metrodome, I once saw Jack McDowell lose a shutout and a game when what appeared to be a two-out single bounced high over Harold Baines' head to score the winning run. I saw games at Metropolitan stadium. I saw Joe Horlen lose there. I saw Wilbur Wood win a game there that Hoyt Wilhelm came in to save. The barn the Twins call home is a waste of real estate in comparison. It angers me that major league baseball sanctions play there. It especially angers me that a White Sox season could be decided there.

A lot of WSI posters gave up up on the season when Jose Contreras went down. A lot gave up on the season when Carlos Quentin went down. Some who remained gave up on the season when they assumed Paul Konerko was done for the year. A lot of the people giving up now have given up at least before. I haven't given up. I know the White Sox haven't given up (despite the assumption of self-loathing White Sox fans).

The Twins can't go to the postseason unless the White Sox lose more than the Twins do.

Meanwhile, the Royals have been playing good baseball. They swept three in Detroit after losing two of three against the Sox after winning seven straight. Two weeks ago, they beat the Twins in a game Liriano started. Liriano goes Friday night, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins experience a bit of a letdown. The Royals certainly will be the looser team Friday night. The Royals, who care about staying out of last place, easily could win two of three. A sweep would surprise me, but it's possible. The Royals have some players who can play the kind of garbage the Metrodome offers.

Even if the Twins sweep the Royals, the White Sox are only a five-game home winning streak from the ALDS. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's true that what kills you indeed kills you, but the White Sox haven't been killed. They could have a finest hour in store for them.

I haven't given up on the 2008 White Sox. And I don't have much use for people who have.

I had to stop reading at the "I never liked Nick Swisher as a hitter" part.

The beginning of your post was pretty well written, though. Kudos.

SoxandtheCityTee
09-26-2008, 10:14 AM
Ramblings' from an insane White Sox fan ..
I might be the only fan not shocked by this as i expected the first 2 losses but i thought that we would AT LEAST (just barely) win the last one.:mad:
. . .

All that being said .. i'm a pretty sick guy and in a wheel chair but i will be at ALL THREE GAMES this weekend cheering on the team that i love and i will never give up on them ...
GO WHITE SOX ...

Not insane, but loyal -- which can seem, and feel, like the same thing at such times. Hearing that someone like you, who has to deal with ill health, will be at all three games reminds me of many things about fandom that are very moving but hard to explain. So do these posts about previous heartbreaks.

I can't talk about those now. I will be hoping that you see some wonderful Sox wins, harwar!

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 10:20 AM
Reading today's newspapers and seeing a lot of this dumped on Ozzie caused me to wonder, was it Ozzie that acquired two of the three biggest head cases on the team? (Cabrera, Swisher). The other being Boone Logan.

If blame is going to be assigned then I think it needs to be assigned properly, not making one individual a scape goat.

Lip

KingXerxes
09-26-2008, 10:23 AM
Reading today's newspapers and seeing a lot of this dumped on Ozzie caused me to wonder, was it Ozzie that acquired two of the three biggest head cases on the team? (Cabrera, Swisher). The other being Boone Logan.

If blame is going to be assigned then I think it needs to be assigned properly, not making one individual a scape goat.

Lip

Lip - I haven't read the paper today, but heard Joe Cowley on the radio and was somewhat surprised. What the hell is Nick Swisher's problem now? I always knew (or at least suspected) that Cabrera wasn't a team favorite, but "Mr. I'm Just Having Fun"? What's up with him?

munchman33
09-26-2008, 10:29 AM
Reading today's newspapers and seeing a lot of this dumped on Ozzie caused me to wonder, was it Ozzie that acquired two of the three biggest head cases on the team? (Cabrera, Swisher). The other being Boone Logan.

If blame is going to be assigned then I think it needs to be assigned properly, not making one individual a scape goat.

Lip

Ozzie kept us in a playoff race with this ragtag bunch of hackers, despite how much he despises a team built this way. I don't see how anyone could blame Ozzie. He didn't make this mess, he's just the one publicly trying to fix it.

Flight #24
09-26-2008, 10:32 AM
This team has with one exception, crapped the bed when it counted. That's going back to when Kenny took over. And in 2005, we all remember the near-death experience that preceded the WS run.

For whatever reason, the Sox under Kenny's regime (I would say Kenny & Ozzie but it predates Oz) have been mentally weak and shoked in key games in the 2d half. Great quote in the paper today from Kenny re: How can they only have 1 division title with all the games they've won?

Answer: They are mentally weak as an organization and lacking in fundamentals. The Twins can throw a beer vendor our there and be sure he'll get down a bunt or hit to the right side. The Sox can't bring a guy up through the system for years and get that result. That's how you scratch your way back in a game like yesterday - then the Sox turtle up and gag it away.

There is slim hope, but I have no faith that this team can get their sack up enough to make it happen. That's less because I'm pessimistic and more because I've watched this team in the 2d half (and prior years) and they've consistently underperformed when it counted. I'll be there Sunday though hoping they're still in it!

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 10:34 AM
We just don't have the organizational depth to respond to injuries. TCQ goes down and we end up w/D Wise in LF for the pennant race. Ken Griffey is by far the lowest quality CF starting for any of the teams in the post season or still in the hunt. Dye is out of gas. At his age he needs days off..we can't give them to him because we don't have the depth. Same with Ramirez. He's needed an "Iguchi type work load" in his 1st full season in the bigs. Ever since we lost Crede (so Uribe covers 3rd, because one of our top prospects, Fields, can't be trusted on defense) then Getz...we just have to keep putting Alexei out there. No meaningful bullpen help when Linebrink goes down ot Dotel and Logan fall off the cliff. Richard struggled to replace Contreras which led to Ozzie's "4 man rotation" which I think hurt Javy but also led to very high pitch counts for Floyd.

KW has overseen the minor league system for over a decade in one capacity or another. The buck stops with him. The line up and pitching staff that face the Twins this week was not a post season quality line up.

With Quentin and a healthy Contreras would it have been?

Lack of depth is one thing to discuss, but this team if healthy the last 6 weeks probably walks away with the division.

Losing a #3 pitcher and an MVP candidate won't help any team. Where are the Red Sox without Pappi these past 3 weeks?

Where are the Rays without Longoria?

The Angels without Vlad?

The only team that's probably immune are the Twinkies and anyone who thinks that team is going to succeed in the playoffs needs their head examined.

And still we stand a chance...

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 10:37 AM
Reading today's newspapers and seeing a lot of this dumped on Ozzie caused me to wonder, was it Ozzie that acquired two of the three biggest head cases on the team? (Cabrera, Swisher). The other being Boone Logan.

If blame is going to be assigned then I think it needs to be assigned properly, not making one individual a scape goat.

Lip

I'm actually starting to come around on this point. I don't know if Ozzie has the ability to build a "team concept" Often the guys you seem doing that are members of the team. Guys like AJ and Konerko in 2005 and OC and Swish this year, but the main problems I have with Ozzie are how he uses his personnel. I can no longer condone his bullpen management and I don't know why he insisted on three straight games of Wise over Swisher this week.

He's stubborn to a fault and it hurts the team...

oeo
09-26-2008, 10:41 AM
Reading today's newspapers and seeing a lot of this dumped on Ozzie caused me to wonder, was it Ozzie that acquired two of the three biggest head cases on the team? (Cabrera, Swisher).

If those two are our biggest problem, then we're in great shape. I don't really understand how they've been a complete detriment to the team, anyway. This goes both ways, because after the complete lack of fun and energy they showed in 2007, most of this year, they did a complete 180 on that. Things have changed within the last month, but I don't think we would have seen that resiliency we saw all year without those two.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 10:44 AM
King:

There are reports that on Wednesday night after he was pinch run for in the 9th inning he came into the dugout, walked right past his teammates and proceeded down the tunnel back into the dressing room.

Then on Thursday before the game he refused all interviews. The media went to Ozzie who said Swisher is upset about not playing but that he's hitting .220 and Ozzie has an obligation to put the lineup out there that gives the team the best chances to win.

Supposedly the past few weeks he has isolated himself from his teammates and has been sulking.

I have no idea if any of this is true but next week when things calm down I'll make some calls and check.

Lip

oeo
09-26-2008, 10:44 AM
I can no longer condone his bullpen management and I don't know why he insisted on three straight games of Wise over Swisher this week.

He's stubborn to a fault and it hurts the team...

This amazes me. Look back before this series, and what was the talk? Keep riding Wise while he's hot! Swisher needs to ride pine the rest of the year!

It's amazing what the results of three games will change. Dewayne Wise playing wasn't the problem in Minnesota. If you truly believe that, then I just don't know what to say.

KingXerxes
09-26-2008, 10:45 AM
Great Lip - Thanks.

As The World Turns.

hi im skot
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
This amazes me. Look back before this series, and what was the talk? Keep riding Wise while he's hot! Swisher needs to ride pine the rest of the year!

It's amazing what the results of three games will change. Dewayne Wise playing wasn't the problem in Minnesota. If you truly believe that, then I just don't know what to say.

How many runners did he strand in the series?

Sure, he didn't have any help, but he didn't do much to help the team.

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
This amazes me. Look back before this series, and what was the talk? Keep riding Wise while he's hot! Swisher needs to ride pine the rest of the year!

It's amazing what the results of three games will change. Dewayne Wise playing wasn't the problem in Minnesota. If you truly believe that, then I just don't know what to say.

Not from me you didn't. I have never advocated for anyone but Swish in LF since TCQ went down.

Oh and if Wise wasn't a major part of the problem this past series when he went 0/12 1 BB, 3 K and a whole bunch of crappy defense, then who was?

DeWayne Wise.... He is who we thought he is, a journeyman, AAAA OF who should be used sparingly...

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 10:52 AM
How many runners did he strand in the series?

Sure, he didn't have any help, but he didn't do much to help the team.


9LOB, 6 on Wednesday...

GoGoCrede
09-26-2008, 10:55 AM
Sigh. My friend turned it off to watch the Office, and then this morning she messages me with, "THEY LOST?" Apparently the score was 6-1 when she flipped the channel. I should've watched the Office, heard it was good.

Flight #24
09-26-2008, 10:59 AM
Not from me you didn't. I have never advocated for anyone but Swish in LF since TCQ went down.

Oh and if Wise wasn't a major part of the problem this past series when he went 0/12 1 BB, 3 K and a whole bunch of crappy defense, then who was?

DeWayne Wise.... He is who we thought he is, a journeyman, AAAA OF who should be used sparingly...

Meanwhile, Denard Span continues to be a killer for the Twins.

It's organizational folks - how they identify and develop talent and what skills they insist on. You come back and are mentally tough when you know that you'll be able to scratch out that run on 3d with less than 2 outs to get to within 3. You know you can do it again next inning, and so on. Meanwhile you choke when you continuously have the same situation but come up emtpy.

The Sox are able to identify and develop talent, but not guys who can execute. They give it lip service, but the simple fact that after 7 years under Kenny they still can't do it tells you that that's all it is - lip service. And that - is why they fail.

champagne030
09-26-2008, 11:01 AM
I'm actually starting to come around on this point. I don't know if Ozzie has the ability to build a "team concept" Often the guys you seem doing that are members of the team. Guys like AJ and Konerko in 2005 and OC and Swish this year, but the main problems I have with Ozzie are how he uses his personnel. I can no longer condone his bullpen management and I don't know why he insisted on three straight games of Wise over Swisher this week.

He's stubborn to a fault and it hurts the team...

:thud:You've seen the light......:cool:

kobo
09-26-2008, 11:04 AM
He's stubborn to a fault and it hurts the team...
Agree. How he could think Wise gives the team a better chance to win than Swisher, even though Swisher was struggling, astounds me. These 3 games were basically playoff games, and the great Oswaldo thought having Wise lead off and Griffey in CF was the best way to win. To his credit Griffey came through in the first 2 games, but he does not belong in CF, especially in the dome. If you want to play Wise then put him in CF and move Griffey over to LF. And if the reports are true about them asking Griffey where he would be more comfortable, LF or CF, and him saying CF then shame on Ozzie for allowing that to happen. That's not helping the team, that's catering to an individual and putting him over the team. I'm glad Griff won't be here next year.

ode to veeck
09-26-2008, 11:20 AM
T-Dog:

My biggest concern is apparently what's going on in the clubhouse. It seems these guys have fallen apart mentally and are now blaming others, pointing fingers, looking out for themselves.

That's very dangerous and does not reflect well on Ozzie.

Lip

Nice post TDog. Of course, the Clubhouse is going to be a tough place after 3 brutal games in a poor excuse for a ballpark. Let's see how they regroup or not when they are back at the Cell again this weekend.

roylestillman
09-26-2008, 11:30 AM
Otherwise, the hundreds (thousands, for some people) of $$$ & hundreds of hours spent on this underachieving team that we'll never get back, will have been pretty much for naught.

I agreed with a lot of your post until I got to this part. This is not an underachieving team. In many aspects (Uribe, Danks, Floyd Quentin Ramirez) it was an overachieving team which magnified some of the managerial choices made in this series. Streaks and luck caused Ozzie to go with players like Wise as "the hot hand" while the numbers on the back of his baseball card showed him as a career mediocre AAA ballpalayer.

The contrast to Twins brand of baseball made it unbearable. Dye. Thome. Konerko. No threat to steal, no sense in bunting, a single gets any one of them from second to third. As much as Pods has been villified on this board, I still say the first half of 2005 was all him. A base stealing threat threw off pitcher after pitcher and allowed the 2 and 3 hitters the pitches to turn, well Iguchi for instance, into a threat. Proirity #1 in the off season is to get speed in that lead of position and get one of the aging tortoises off the basepaths.

Other observations

If Walker can't teach anybody how to bunt, find somebody. Firing is not necessary just hire a "bunting consultant."

Figure out why Danks and Floyd unravel whenever somebody's on first - they actually pitch better when they get to second. Work on a way for them to hold runners on without screwing up their delivery.

Just because you have 12 picthers in the bullpen, don't think you have to use them all. Its looked like Spring Training since Sept. 1st.Give up on Logan and McDougal. Get Broadway out of the doghouse.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 11:34 AM
9LOB, 6 on Wednesday...

GMAB. When Swisher went 0-12 with 9 K's (like recent history dictated he would) you'd be calling for Ozzie's head. Ozzie did the only thing a good manager could. He put the guy out there that gave him the best chance to win.

kitekrazy
09-26-2008, 11:44 AM
The Sox are able to identify and develop talent,

More often it's when they come from another organization.

TDog
09-26-2008, 11:46 AM
Meanwhile, Denard Span continues to be a killer for the Twins.

It's organizational folks - how they identify and develop talent and what skills they insist on. ...

Denard Span has surprised a lot of people in baseball, including people in the Twins organization. He began this season in his sixth year in the minors. He was impressive in high-A-ball for a couple of months, but he otherwise was never an impressive hitter.

Last season in the International League, he hit .267. Despite his speed, he was thrown out trying to steal 14 times in 39 attempts. Jerry Owens in the International League played fewer games because he was called up to the Sox, but he .284 and was caught stealing just eight times in 31 attempts. Span made the Twins after having a great spring, didn't hit especially well and was sent back down. He hit .340 in 40 games for Rochester and returned because of injuries.

It is likely that if Span had continued to play as he always did in the past that he would have become a minor league free agent at the end of the year. The Twins are being commended for hanging on to him long enough to see him develop. You hear people saying things like "no one expected it, but sometimes players with great speed are late bloomers."

Span isn't an example of a deep organization. Coming into this season, the belief was that Span was regressing. He suddenly found it. Owens is what Span was before the light went on.

champagne030
09-26-2008, 11:53 AM
Denard Span has surprised a lot of people in baseball, including people in the Twins organization. He began this season in his sixth year in the minors. He was impressive in high-A-ball for a couple of months, but he otherwise was never an impressive hitter.

Last season in the International League, he hit .267. Despite his speed, he was thrown out trying to steal 14 times in 39 attempts. Jerry Owens in the International League played fewer games because he was called up to the Sox, but he .284 and was caught stealing just eight times in 31 attempts. Span made the Twins after having a great spring, didn't hit especially well and was sent back down. He hit .340 in 40 games for Rochester and returned because of injuries.

It is likely that if Span had continued to play as he always did in the past that he would have become a minor league free agent at the end of the year. The Twins are being commended for hanging on to him long enough to see him develop. You hear people saying things like "no one expected it, but sometimes players with great speed are late bloomers."

Span isn't an example of a deep organization. Coming into this season, the belief was that Span was regressing. He suddenly found it. Owens is what Span was before the light went on.

Span is a great defensive player. Owens sucks, in every way, in the outfield.

soxfanreggie
09-26-2008, 11:55 AM
After this one, I definitely needed a drink. I'm not sure I want to see Griffey in there with PK, Thome, and Dye. I just don't know if I can handle that much slowness in the line-up and on the field.

We need someone to be jacked up for the Cleveland series, who will also man-up and lead us on offense. We wasted two good starting performances; let's hope we don't blow another one.

TDog
09-26-2008, 12:04 PM
Span is a great defensive player. Owens sucks, in every way, in the outfield.

Span wasn't going to make the Twins with his glove. If Owens hit better than Span (as he did in the International League before this season), his glove wouldn't keep him from making the Sox any more than Podsedkik's glove kept him from starting for the Sox.

champagne030
09-26-2008, 01:04 PM
Span wasn't going to make the Twins with his glove. If Owens hit better than Span (as he did in the International League before this season), his glove wouldn't keep him from making the Sox any more than Podsedkik's glove kept him from starting for the Sox.

I'm just not buying the Owens/Span comparison. Owens was 3 years older and repeating AAA. Span was highly rated for years by the Twins, who struggled during his first season of AAA. The second year he dominated.

Span >>>>> Owens.

PaleHoser
09-26-2008, 01:42 PM
Vazquez isn't going anywhere. He's here to stay, like him or not. Hopefully, he will enter next season as our No. 5 starter instead of our No. 2.

I'd like to buy him a ticket to Oz over the winter so he can find some heart ala "the Tin Man".

If it were me, I'd trade him to Washington, Seattle or any other version of baseball Siberia that can be found. That way he can pitch in a pressure-free environment and go home to Puerto Rico and count his money when all is said and done.

Regarding bunting, it can't be coached or taught to those that don't want to do it. I've coached Little League for years and have had kids refuse to listen and refuse to work at it. Why would a 30+ year-old millionaire be any different? How often do they show bunts on "Baseball Tonight"?

That, lies with Ozzie. How long has he stuck with veterans this year when they weren't hitting? So if you're still playing regularly when you're only getting 3-4 hits a week, what are the consequences if you don't advance a runner?

Lack of team speed has absolutely killed us for three years. Offensively, the inability to score from second on clean base hits to the outfield - with two outs no less - or to go from first to third on a base-hit has killed us. The inability to get to a ball hit into the gap before it turned into a triple killed us.

Even if KW manages to add speed to the lineup, it will still be limited offensively because we have so many regulars who swing and miss ALOT - Swisher, Thome, Uribe. You can't hit-and-run with these guys, and that my friends is an observation my wife made last night (bless her heart). Watching the Twins hit she says "they sure don't strike out much do they". Put the ball in play on the ground (think about the groundout that moved Punto from 1st to 2nd in the 10th last night) and good things can happen, particularly on carpet.

Unfortunately, most of these guys and their cement shoes will be back in March because of their 10-5 rights, no trade clauses, etc. It's a shame some of them can't be offered buyouts for early retirement like they do in manufacturing periodically.

Tragg
09-26-2008, 01:44 PM
It's amazing what the results of three games will change. Dewayne Wise playing wasn't the problem in Minnesota. If you truly believe that, then I just don't know what to say.
He certainly was part of the problem - the Sox didn't hit in Minnesota, and he was at the bottom of the barrel - Wise laid a goose-egg - o-fer.
Sure, play him - he came into the series reasonably hot ....but not at leadoff. That's ridiculous. Like it or not, the facts are real: Wise has had a good week in June and a good 10 days in September...other than that, he's been a minor league caliber ballplayer his entire career. Guillen's infatuated.

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 01:46 PM
GMAB. When Swisher went 0-12 with 9 K's (like recent history dictated he would) you'd be calling for Ozzie's head. Ozzie did the only thing a good manager could. He put the guy out there that gave him the best chance to win.

Funny, I seem to remember Swish drawing a walk in one AB and getting rung up on a questionable check swing appeal in his other in this series.

And, no... I wanted Swish to start this series from the get go because I wanted the players who have proven to be successful over several years not just spot starts this season.

JB98
09-26-2008, 01:57 PM
I'd like to buy him a ticket to Oz over the winter so he can find some heart ala "the Tin Man".

If it were me, I'd trade him to Washington, Seattle or any other version of baseball Siberia that can be found. That way he can pitch in a pressure-free environment and go home to Puerto Rico and count his money when all is said and done.

Regarding bunting, it can't be coached or taught to those that don't want to do it. I've coached Little League for years and have had kids refuse to listen and refuse to work at it. Why would a 30+ year-old millionaire be any different? How often do they show bunts on "Baseball Tonight"?

That, lies with Ozzie. How long has he stuck with veterans this year when they weren't hitting? So if you're still playing regularly when you're only getting 3-4 hits a week, what are the consequences if you don't advance a runner?

Lack of team speed has absolutely killed us for three years. Offensively, the inability to score from second on clean base hits to the outfield - with two outs no less - or to go from first to third on a base-hit has killed us. The inability to get to a ball hit into the gap before it turned into a triple killed us.

Even if KW manages to add speed to the lineup, it will still be limited offensively because we have so many regulars who swing and miss ALOT - Swisher, Thome, Uribe. You can't hit-and-run with these guys, and that my friends is an observation my wife made last night (bless her heart). Watching the Twins hit she says "they sure don't strike out much do they". Put the ball in play on the ground (think about the groundout that moved Punto from 1st to 2nd in the 10th last night) and good things can happen, particularly on carpet.

Unfortunately, most of these guys and their cement shoes will be back in March because of their 10-5 rights, no trade clauses, etc. It's a shame some of them can't be offered buyouts for early retirement like they do in manufacturing periodically.

All you folks who want to trade Vazquez, who are you going to replace him with? We don't have any internal options within the organization. Keep in mind, Jose Contreras suffered a serious injury. He isn't going to be ready for spring training. He might come back by the All-Star break, but the Sox have to plan as if he won't be back at all.

If you ship out Vazquez, then you've got TWO holes in the rotation. Neither Clayton Richard nor Lance Broadway have shown me enough to suggest they are ready to step in.

As I indicated, Vazquez is OK as long as he's at the back of the rotation, pitching against other back-of-the-rotation pitchers.

I've never been a FOJV, and I can't believe I'm defending him. But you have to look at the big picture, as opposed to just raging about how Vazquez screwed the pooch Tuesday night.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 01:59 PM
I agree with Adele H. Couldn't have said it better.

Ha, that's a first. Someone agreeing... I don't know what to say. :scratch:

I'd like to thank the Academy and Allah...


.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 02:12 PM
Orlando C. came aboard and first i was happy .. then i was disappointed .. now i see they only guy on the team that seems to even care about what is happening ..

.

I know. Isn't that ironic?

Although Cabrera did cost the Sox a big run defensively, both on Wed. and last night (weak throw on a DP & limited range on Span's blooper), so he ain't exactly Mr. Perfect Mr. October, either.

GoGoCrede
09-26-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm reminded of what Minnie Minoso said on the WS DVD: "When you play together, it's tough to beat you." I don't think this team has been playing together for a while (the merry-go-round of outfielders every day doesn't help either).

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 02:21 PM
. Dye is out of gas. At his age he needs days off... we can't give them to him because we don't have the depth. Same with Ramirez. He's needed an "Iguchi type work load" in his 1st full season in the bigs.

...

Ozzie's "4 man rotation" which I think hurt Javy but also led to very high pitch counts for Floyd.



Exactly. The two players who needed rest the most - Dye & Ramirez - haven't had the rest least until it was too late (Quentin's moronic injury). Even Thome was ridden into the ground...

The whole point of Griffey trade is to bring aboard a back-up DH/RF/LF. Incomprehensible stupidity.

As for 4 man rotation, it's partly responsible for at least 3 bad starts thus far. Bad idea, implemented by a bad manager.

TDog
09-26-2008, 02:23 PM
I'm just not buying the Owens/Span comparison. Owens was 3 years older and repeating AAA. Span was highly rated for years by the Twins, who struggled during his first season of AAA. The second year he dominated.

Span >>>>> Owens.

Obviously Span is better than Owens, but Span spent five years in the minors and was regarded as a disappointment coming into spring training and failed to beat out Gomez. But for injuries to Cuddyer, he wouldn't have come up until later in the season. Obviously he has some ability. He was drafted out of high school in the first round becasue he was believed to have a high ceiling. The Expos drafted Jerry Owens in the second round because they saw a similar upside. The Twins are fortunate he developed before he was eligible to become a minor league free agent.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:24 PM
Exactly. The two players who needed rest the most - Dye & Ramirez - have the rest least until it was too late (Quentin's moronic injury). Even Thome was ridden into the ground...

The whole point of Griffey trade is to bring aboard a back-up DH/RF/LF. Incomprehensible stupidity.

As for 4 man rotation, it's partly responsible for at least 3 bad starts thus far. Bad idea, implemented by a bad manager.

I disagree with you on the point about the four-man rotation. It is not ideal, and only Buehrle has responded well to it. But Richard and Broadway are not good options, and Guillen is trying to ride his best starting pitchers.

I can't blame him for that, and I wish he would have taken the same philosophy with his bullpen. He's spent too much time screwing around with the Wassermans, Logans and MacDougals of the world.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 02:38 PM
I disagree with you on the point about the four-man rotation. It is not ideal, and only Buehrle has responded well to it. But Richard and Broadway are not good options, and Guillen is trying to ride his best starting pitchers.
.

Broadway blows, but Richard is basically 2007 Danks in that he has ML talent... responded wih the best start of all Sox starters this road trip in terms of pitch quality (Danks was up there, too).

Instead of biting the bullet on one (successful) Richard and retaining normal rest, the whole thing backfires, affecting several Sox starters, including Vazquez and Floyd.

JB98
09-26-2008, 02:49 PM
Broadway blows, but Richard is basically 2007 Danks in that he has ML talent... responded wih the best start of all Sox starters this road trip in terms of pitch quality (Danks was up there, too).

Instead of biting the bullet on one (successful) Richard and retaining normal rest, the whole thing backfires, affecting several Sox starters, including Vazquez and Floyd.

It's not an easy call for the coaching staff, though. I'm sure Ozzie and Coop considered and debated the point that you're making. They decided the best thing was to cut it down to four men. It's not ideal. Neither is having to throw Richard in the heat of a pennant race. While he had a nice start in New York, his overall body of work at the big-league level this year is quite poor. Would you have wanted Richard to start one of the games at Minnesota?

Really, this is all a product of the Sox not having a deep farm system and not having enough protection against injuries to key people. Wise and Carrasco, both veteran journeymen, are the only two players to come up from Charlotte and contribute anything this season.

We just don't have any young players who are capable of filling gaps, even in the short-term. Hell, Fields was supposedly our best prospect. Crede went down, yet it is Uribe who is stepping up to fill the position. Last season, Uribe was hated and despised on this board. Now, everyone agrees that Uribe is a better option at 3B than Fields. That's quite an indictment on the Sox player development as far as I'm concerned.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 02:51 PM
Where are the Rays without Longoria?
...

Didn't the Rays go 19-10 when Longoria was on DL?

Point being, Rays didn't exactly pucker up and lay down as the Sox offense clearly has without Quentin (especially on the road).

Rays had utter dreck like Upton, Hinske, Zobrist, Gross, Iwamura, etc hold fort......While we had hall-of-famers and all-star caliber talent like Dye, Konerko, Griffey, AJ, Thome, Alexei, Swisher, Cabrera.

TDog
09-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Didn't the Rays go 19-10 when Longoria was on DL?

Point being, Rays didn't exactly pucker up and lay down as the Sox offense clearly has without Quentin (especially on the road).

Rays had utter dreck like Upton, Hinske, Zobrist, Gross, Iwamura, etc hold fort......While we had hall-of-famers and all-star caliber talent like Dye, Konerko, Griffey, AJ, Thome, Alexei, Swisher, Cabrera.

The Rays don't need Longoria as much as the White Sox need Quentin. Aybar may have done better at third than Longoria would have, just as Uribe has done a good job as Crede's replacement. Longoria was by no means the team's MVP.

Injuries happen, of course, but where would the Twins be if they had lost Morneau?

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:12 PM
Dewayne Wise playing wasn't the problem in Minnesota. If you truly believe that, then I just don't know what to say.

What's amazing here is how devoid of critical thought some of your posts have been lately as you tell others they don't know what they're talking about.

Wise didn't hurt the team? Let's look at the tape, shall we:

Ok, assuming that game 1 was a blow-out that Sox had no chance of winning anyway (although if Kubel's "lead-off triple" is caught, Twins may not have the big inning - just as if Thome's "double" is caught yesterday, Slowey is off the hook most likely)

Sox still lost 2 excruciatingly close games on Wed & Thu, though they only needed to win one, remember?

So back to Wise:

Game 2: not that his "circle the wagons" and "throw to the wrong base with a noodle arm" routine was cute, mind you..... But his 2 AB where he stranded 5 runners, chasing a couple of pitches chest-high & away, clearly trying to park it, were nothing short of unforgivable - not just the result of the AB and the ramification on the game's outcome, but the putrid approach at the plate, the "I do what I do and screw you" body language - from your lead-off hitter, no less...

Game 3: more awfulness at the plate from the all-important lead-off spot, no I don't see how that could possibly hurt the team in a razor tight pennant race contest on the road... But what really hurt the team was his typically bad angle on Gomez's 1-out "triple" to LF. At the very least, it should have been a double, in which case Gomez probably doesn't score - and Sox win in regulation.

Daver is right of course: while not good enough for CF, Griffey may be a better corner OF than Wise. And people looking for most balance, would have had Griffey in LF and Brian Anderson in CF the last two games, in which case Sox probably win at least one if not both.


.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:23 PM
The Rays don't need Longoria as much as the White Sox need Quentin.

I don't agree. Longoria is not quite the hitter Quentin is, but his Gold Glove defense puts him on Carlos's level - or at the very least, in the neighborhood.

And you know what? Your post may be right, but what it does is it ignores the REAL problem: the team seemingly used Quentin's injury as an excuse to roll over & die this weekend - when even MEDIOCRE brand of baseball would have resulted in taking at least 1 game from the reeling Twins.

PS. What you're also fogetting is that Quentin himself was looking tired & beat-up for days if not weeks before his "freak accident". As big a Quentin fan as I've been, I honestly cannot say whether or not he would have been the White Horse Savior in September or just merely a good hitter, as other hitters around him were grasping for air. Something to consider.

kobo
09-26-2008, 03:29 PM
I don't agree. Longoria is not quite the hitter Quentin is, but his Gold Glove defense puts him on Carlos's level - or at the very least, in the neighborhood.

And you know what? Your post may be right, but what it does is it ignores the REAL problem: the team seemingly used Quentin's injury as an excuse to roll over & die this weekend - when even MEDIOCRE brand of baseball would have resulted in taking at least 1 game from the reeling Twins.

PS. What you're also fogetting is that Quentin himself was looking tired & beat-up for days if not weeks before his "freak accident". As big a Quentin fan as I've been, I honestly cannot say whether or not he would have been the White Horse Savior in September or just merely a good hitter, as other hitters around him were grasping for air. Something to consider.
Who is using Quentin's injury as an excuse? The majority of the lineup has been hitting like **** all month, it's not like they got to MN and decided, '**** it, season's over, let's not try'.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:30 PM
Injuries happen, of course, but where would the Twins be if they had lost Morneau?



Minnesota lost their ace for half the season (not counting the time it took him regain his form, which he still hasn't).

(If anybody should be complaining about injuries, it should be Cleveland.)

Injuries prevented the Sox from winning 94-96 games, but they shouldn't overshadow the blatant choking & mismanagement of the team down the stretch, IMO.

Frankly, Sox have too much talent, even counting maddening underachievers like Dotel, MacDougal and Uribe, to have gone down like little bitches as they have.

Konerko05
09-26-2008, 03:50 PM
King:

There are reports that on Wednesday night after he was pinch run for in the 9th inning he came into the dugout, walked right past his teammates and proceeded down the tunnel back into the dressing room.


This is definitely true because I watched it happen on the broadcast. I even made a post about it in Wednesday's game thread.

When the camera cut to the dugout Brian Anderson and a couple other players were trying to say "good job," and he just stormed past both of them straight into the clubhouse.

I don't care how upset he is about playing time, that is inexcusable. It was the 9th inning of the biggest game of the year to that point, and he didn't even care if they won or lost because he was no longer in the game.

Ozzie called him a "winner." That is not a winner. A winner doesn't hit .221 and cry in the dugout. I thought his attitude was one of the reasons he was brought here. Makes me appreciate even more how Juan Uribe has conducted himself throughout the year.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:58 PM
.

I don't care how upset he is about playing time, that is inexcusable. It was the 9th inning of the biggest game of the year to that point, and he didn't even care if they won or lost because he was no longer in the game.

Ozzie called him a "winner." That is not a winner. A winner doesn't hit .221 and cry in the dugout. I thought his attitude was one of the reasons he was brought here. Makes me appreciate even more how Juan Uribe has conducted himself throughout the year.

And to think:

how much lecturing and brow-beating re: Swisher' Ph.D. in (Team) Chemistry many of us had to endure from his fanboys... :rolleyes:

How apropo.

It's Dankerific
09-26-2008, 04:07 PM
And to think:

how much lecturing and brow-beating re: Swisher' Ph.D. in (Team) Chemistry many of us had to endure from his fanboys... :rolleyes:

How apropo.

Talking about that now is just rubbing it in their faces. What they do is for the service of all Sox-kind.

I'm so happy I got to see Ozzie do it his way for a whole ****ing roadtrip of pain and a nightmare in a dome. We couldnt put defense out in the OF for one ****ing game? Just to see what happens? but we can put Wise at leadoff as our end of the year experiment??? **** you and your 0-12 ass Wise, but I don't blame you. You just want to play baseball. Its not your fault some dumbass keeps putting you out there to miserably fail.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:15 PM
Just to see what happens? but we can put Wise at leadoff as our end of the year experiment??? **** you and your 0-12 ass Wise, but I don't blame you. You just want to play baseball. Its not your fault some dumbass keeps putting you out there to miserably fail.

Look, I think Ozzie is a remarkably overrated manager in every respect... but there is no way Dewayne Wise and the rest of the Mental Midgets should escape the wrath of Sox fans for what transpired over the last 3 days.

Both are are culpable. The petty, short-sighted manager. And the selfish, uninspired and/or knee-buckley players. Both.

.

It's Dankerific
09-26-2008, 04:28 PM
Look, I think Ozzie is a remarkably overrated manager in every respect... but there is no way Dewayne Wise and the rest of the Mental Midgets should escape the wrath of Sox fans for what transpired over the last 3 days.

Both are are culpable. The petty, short-sighted manager. And the selfish, uninspired and/or knee-buckley players. Both.

.

I disagree. Wise is not very good. I have no doubt he tried his best.

kobo
09-26-2008, 04:36 PM
Look, I think Ozzie is a remarkably overrated manager in every respect... but there is no way Dewayne Wise and the rest of the Mental Midgets should escape the wrath of Sox fans for what transpired over the last 3 days.

Both are are culpable. The petty, short-sighted manager. And the selfish, uninspired and/or knee-buckley players. Both.

.
You'd be one of those fans that would boo the team tonight if you were at the game, aren't you?

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:40 PM
I disagree. Wise is not very good. I have no doubt he tried his best.

No, Wise isn't very good, but I've seen him with much better approach/swings even recently.... against better pitchers than what he faced this week.

Simply put: after hitting that Grand Slam and a short-porch HR in NY in back-to-back games that were featured on Sportscenter, Wise started to believe in his own hype.

Whereas previously he was looking more along the lines of a poor man's Span... in Minnesota, Wise swung like he was Ken freakin' Griffey Jr - from the lead-off spot!

In general, once you start overlooking personal responsibility (of Major League players to perform), you're heading down one slippery slope...

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 04:44 PM
You'd be one of those fans that would boo the team tonight if you were at the game, aren't you?

I don't boo players - unless it's for blatant non-effort or criminal activity.

Wrong again, in other words.

Tragg
09-26-2008, 04:54 PM
What's amazing here is how devoid of critical thought some of your posts have been lately as you tell others they don't know what they're talking about.

Wise didn't hurt the team? Let's look at the tape, shall we:

Ok, assuming that game 1 was a blow-out that Sox had no chance of winning anyway (although if Kubel's "lead-off triple" is caught, Twins may not have the big inning - just as if Thome's "double" is caught yesterday, Slowey is off the hook most likely)

Sox still lost 2 excruciatingly close games on Wed & Thu, though they only needed to win one, remember?

So back to Wise:

Game 2: not that his "circle the wagons" and "throw to the wrong base with a noodle arm" routine was cute, mind you..... But his 2 AB where he stranded 5 runners, chasing a couple of pitches chest-high & away, clearly trying to park it, were nothing short of unforgivable - not just the result of the AB and the ramification on the game's outcome, but the putrid approach at the plate, the "I do what I do and screw you" body language - from your lead-off hitter, no less...

Game 3: more awfulness at the plate from the all-important lead-off spot, no I don't see how that could possibly hurt the team in a razor tight pennant race contest on the road... But what really hurt the team was his typically bad angle on Gomez's 1-out "triple" to LF. At the very least, it should have been a double, in which case Gomez probably doesn't score - and Sox win in regulation.

Daver is right of course: while not good enough for CF, Griffey may be a better corner OF than Wise. And people looking for most balance, would have had Griffey in LF and Brian Anderson in CF the last two games, in which case Sox probably win at least one if not both.


.
I agree.
But it's not Wise's fault he's a poor player. It's Guillen's fault for thinking he's a quality player and playing him. Inexplicably moved to leadoff the last week of the season?

palehosepub
09-26-2008, 05:34 PM
I have been watching White Sox games for 40 years. Last night was the absolutely most depressing loss I have ever witnessed. The only game that comes close is the 1- 0 loss in the 1983 playoffs when Britt Burns gave up an extra inning home run to Tito Nobody. At least that game was a well played game....

Railsplitter
09-26-2008, 05:35 PM
:angry:

TDog
09-26-2008, 06:20 PM
I don't agree. Longoria is not quite the hitter Quentin is, but his Gold Glove defense puts him on Carlos's level - or at the very least, in the neighborhood.

And you know what? Your post may be right, but what it does is it ignores the REAL problem: the team seemingly used Quentin's injury as an excuse to roll over & die this weekend - when even MEDIOCRE brand of baseball would have resulted in taking at least 1 game from the reeling Twins.

PS. What you're also fogetting is that Quentin himself was looking tired & beat-up for days if not weeks before his "freak accident". As big a Quentin fan as I've been, I honestly cannot say whether or not he would have been the White Horse Savior in September or just merely a good hitter, as other hitters around him were grasping for air. Something to consider.

I'm not forgetting anything. I think people are overrating Longoria. I am not that impressed with him. I don't think they missed much with Aybar replacing him. If Aybar had been in the starting lineup last Sunday, maybe the Twins don't score all those runs due to Longoria's poor defense. The Rays lost the game in which Longoria hit the three home runs against the Twins, anyway.

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 06:36 PM
I'm not forgetting anything. I think people are overrating Longoria. I am not that impressed with him. I don't think they missed much with Aybar replacing him. .

You're talking about replacing a 900 OPS hitting future Gold Glover who knows how to run bases and hits in the "clutch".... with a 700 OPS hitting average 3B who doesn't know how to run bases and doesn't hit in the "clutch".

Unreal.

BoysMom3
09-26-2008, 06:56 PM
I have been watching White Sox games for 40 years. Last night was the absolutely most depressing loss I have ever witnessed. The only game that comes close is the 1- 0 loss in the 1983 playoffs when Britt Burns gave up an extra inning home run to Tito Nobody. At least that game was a well played game....

Palehose, I am so glad you said that. I have been feeling so depressed after last night's game, and I've been questioning myself - do I jump on and off the bandwagon? Am I a fairweather fan? Am I a pantswetter? And I agree - last night I was a pantswetter, but I'm not a dark cloud. And I've felt so low about our chances from here on out.

However, I don't really understand how those numbers and percentages and probabilities work, so when I kept reading that if we lost last night we were done, I really thought that was the case. So since we're still alive, I still have hope. Not high hopes by any means, but I'll still be watching and cheering for My Beloved tonight. Although I smacked a door and said "f" all night in my head and wanted to say it out loud really, really badly!

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 07:00 PM
The Rays lost the game in which Longoria hit the three home runs against the Twins, anyway.

What's your point? That Longoria pads his stats in blow-outs? His 1200 OPS in Close & Late situations will disagree.

Or do you believe that just because Dan Wheeler blew a 9th inning lead that it somehow negatively reflects on the timeliness of Longoria's 3 HR that game?

The issue is simple: Quentin is an idiot to have self-injured like that, and the star-studded Sox line-up revealed their inner choker without TCQ there to hold their collective hand.

All Dye, AJ, Thome, Swisher and Co. had to do to ensure Sox Postseason was to hit half-way decently against pedestrian pitching down the stretch - and they couldn't even do that!

Leave it at that.

TDog
09-26-2008, 08:10 PM
You're talking about replacing a 900 OPS hitting future Gold Glover who knows how to run bases and hits in the "clutch".... with a 700 OPS hitting average 3B who doesn't know how to run bases and doesn't hit in the "clutch".

Unreal.

I'm not talking about replacing Longoria, who, by the way, could indeed be a future Gold Glove winner becaue often the award goes to people who don't deserve it. I am saying that Aybar pretty much did what Longoria would be expected to do while he was out. The Rays didn't miss him, at least, not from a production standpoint. And after Longoria came back, his defense cost them a game at home against the Twins.

The White Sox have not replaced Quentin's offense, although Wise picked up a couple of key hits. The people who hit around Quentin seem to have suffered from his loss as well. The Sox were able to replace Crede. They weren't able to replace Quentin.