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Sockinchisox
09-25-2008, 09:08 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/09/25/williams.whitesox/

WhiteSox5187
09-26-2008, 12:03 AM
I'd wait and see how we do in '09 before re-signing him.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 12:26 AM
Folks:

It's not even an issue... as long as Jerry is running the show, Kenny will be the G.M.

Now Kenny at some point might decide to leave but it will be his decision, JR will never fire him, you can write that in concrete.

Lip

DSpivack
09-26-2008, 12:27 AM
As long as we don't give Ozzie an extension.

CHISOXFAN13
09-26-2008, 12:37 AM
As long as we don't give Ozzie an extension.

Ditto.

thomas35forever
09-26-2008, 12:48 AM
As long as we don't give Ozzie an extension.
Too late. It happened near the end of last year.

DSpivack
09-26-2008, 12:59 AM
Too late. It happened near the end of last year.

Fine, then buy him out.

chisoxfanatic
09-26-2008, 01:02 AM
I think we should have Daver manage the Sox. If anyone gets out of line, they'll have to answer to the elephant gun.

Rockabilly
09-26-2008, 01:40 AM
KW should get an extension

DumpJerry
09-26-2008, 05:52 AM
I think we should have Daver manage the Sox. If anyone gets out of line, they'll have to answer to the elephant gun.
FOBAs would be very unhappy.

WSox597
09-26-2008, 06:02 AM
Hopefully they're not talking extension with Griffey.

Ziggy S
09-26-2008, 07:08 AM
Here's to more aging, free swinging, bad fielding, low batting average, one dimensional sluggers and awful pitchers that used to play for the Royals being aquired over the years.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 07:25 AM
Here's to more aging, free swinging, bad fielding, low batting average, one dimensional sluggers and awful pitchers that used to play for the Royals being aquired over the years.
Yeah! Forget the fact that he is universally recognized as a top five GM.

Boondock Saint
09-26-2008, 07:28 AM
Yeah! Forget the fact that he is universally recognized as a top five GM.

He's made some of the best moves in recent memory, but he's also made some of the dumbest moves in recent memory, as well. KGJ, Horacio Ramirez and Nick Swisher hurt. Bad. I just want him to be more consistent. I'd be happy with him making just average moves if it eliminates the stupid ones.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 07:29 AM
He's made some of the best moves in recent memory, but he's also made some of the dumbest moves in recent memory, as well. KGJ, Horacio Ramirez and Nick Swisher hurt. Bad. I just want him to be more consistent. I'd be happy with him making just average moves if it eliminates the stupid ones.
Swisher will pay off. Be patient.

Boondock Saint
09-26-2008, 07:35 AM
Swisher will pay off. Be patient.

When? This team obviously isn't rebuilding, so why would you trade for a "project" like Swisher? Trading for a "project" (I put it in quotes because I'm not the least bit convinced he'll pan out) when your goal is to contend now is counterproductive.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 07:37 AM
When? This team obviously isn't rebuilding, so why would you trade for a "project" like Swisher? Trading for a "project" (I put it in quotes because I'm not the least bit convinced he'll pan out) when your goal is to contend now is counterproductive.
He's not a project. He's been very, very productive in the two seasons prior to this one. Sometimes there are actual reasons for a player's decline; as opposed to: he sucks, he's got no heart, wah wah wah, etc.

jabrch
09-26-2008, 09:36 AM
Fine, then buy him out.


That won't happen either. Unless Guillen decides he doesn't want to be here, he will be here.

voodoochile
09-26-2008, 09:44 AM
Folks:

It's not even an issue... as long as Jerry is running the show, Kenny will be the G.M.

Now Kenny at some point might decide to leave but it will be his decision, JR will never fire him, you can write that in concrete.

Lip

KW deserves an extension. He's had one of the best runs by a Sox GM ever.

palehozenychicty
09-26-2008, 09:55 AM
He's made some of the best moves in recent memory, but he's also made some of the dumbest moves in recent memory, as well. KGJ, Horacio Ramirez and Nick Swisher hurt. Bad. I just want him to be more consistent. I'd be happy with him making just average moves if it eliminates the stupid ones.


Every GM is going to make mistakes, though, and only Swisher has really hurt because he isn't a good hitter and doesn't have a true position. We also gave up three players for him because his contract is so cheap.
Where KW has been at fault is developing a farm system, which affects the team in the long run of a season because nobody is available to step in and give the regulars a breather, then the injuries hit and they hold on for dear life. It's been happening too often this decade that the team runs out of gas in the second half. Their lead was so big in 2005 that they managed to get away with it. Nearly every other year, though, it's bitten the team in the ass. Hopefully this year's draft can produce some quality young talent.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 09:57 AM
Extend him so he can finish the job. 2008 was part of the process to turn the 2007 disaster team back into a legitimate World Series contender. We have a new core and some good players, now we need the balance, fundamentals, and defense to take the next step. MLB had better watch out because a frightening series of roundhouse kicks are coming.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 09:59 AM
Voodoo:

Please be clear, I'm not automatically disagreeing with you, just trying to present both sides of the coin.

Kenny has had seven winning seasons in nine years and won a World series but he's also only made the post season one time (as of today) under his tenure.

I guess it depends on your point of view when trying to determine how good he is.

And Pale does bring up a valid point about the farm system. Kenny was in charge of it before he became the G.M. and there have been problems with it for a decade.

Lip

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 10:11 AM
Voodoo:

Please be clear, I'm not automatically disagreeing with you, just trying to present both sides of the coin.

Kenny has had seven winning seasons in nine years and won a World series but he's also only made the post season one time (as of today) under his tenure.

I guess it depends on your point of view when trying to determine how good he is.

And Pale does bring up a valid point about the farm system. Kenny was in charge of it before he became the G.M. and there have been problems with it for a decade.

Lip
It's hard to pin the farm system on Kenny. He's made trades to make the Major League club better and I don't think you can fault a GM for trying to win, especially when his trades by and large have worked out as well as Kenny's has.

The problems with the Sox system extend far beyond Kenny's reach. Yes he's the man in charge, but he's not in the minor league clubhouses listening to what his coaches tell his players, he's not in Latin America making sure the scouts are giving the right guys the right contracts, and he's not the one afraid to consistently go over slot.

It's a LOT easier for GM's like Epstein and Cashman to build a farm when they have the ability to target top international free agents and still pick up great prospects who fall in the draft.

And, when it comes to signing major league talent for big money, Kenny is a lot smarter with his money. Contracts like Julio Lugo, Kei Igawa, and Carl Pavano would have crippled this team. Kenny has yet to make those kinds of mistakes.

HawkDJ
09-26-2008, 10:32 AM
He's made some of the best moves in recent memory, but he's also made some of the dumbest moves in recent memory, as well. KGJ, Horacio Ramirez and Nick Swisher hurt. Bad. I just want him to be more consistent. I'd be happy with him making just average moves if it eliminates the stupid ones.


The story for KW is always the smaller transactions. He did give us Quentin, Alexei, Danks and Floyd, which is a pretty solid fairly young core. He needs to get back to what made us successful in 2005. We don't have to be the fastest team in the league but solid role players at the top (Podsednik, Iguchi) are crucial. I think he tried to do that with Cabrera, a solid #2, but Swisher is obviously not a lead off guy.

khan
09-26-2008, 10:36 AM
Extend him so he can finish the job. 2008 was part of the process to turn the 2007 disaster team back into a legitimate World Series contender. We have a new core and some good players, now we need the balance, fundamentals, and defense to take the next step. MLB had better watch out because a frightening series of roundhouse kicks are coming.

Ok, I'll play along. Exactly who do you consider a part of this "new core?"

Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez might go on to have fine careers, or they might continue the natural process of "White Soxing" into free-swinging, poor fielding sluggers that can't catch, run, or throw. We don't know if these guys are one year wonders or not.

Danks and Floyd might be a part of the "new core," but on the other hand, they might also be one year wonders as well.

Exactly who in the bullpen is a part of the "new core?" Boone "I-got-promoted-straight-from-ROOKIE-ball-because-the-front-office-didn't-have-a-better-plan" Logan? Wasserman? Ramirez? Who?

The OF is a joke, as well. The big acquisition in Swisher spent more time on the radio and TV running his piehole than he did on the basepaths this season. His numbers this year are WORSE than Rob Mackowiac's were when Kenny ran him out of town. And he cost the team 3 prospects, too!

What will the middle IF look like next year? For that matter, what will the corner IF look like? Does this team REALLY want YET ANOTHER slow strikeout-in-waiting who can't catch a cold at 3B next year in Fields? Does this team REALLY want a soft-spoken poor performer as their overpaid captain at 1B?

Speaking of which, WHO is this team's leader? It isn't Konerko, he of the "we'll just get them tomorrow"? Crap on Cabrera if you want, but at least I see him TRYING to win, unlike konerko and others in this team. And Cabrera will be GONE next year.


The other problem that I have with this team/Kenny is that I'd like to have a team with more interchangeable parts. I'd like to have some more players that can run, throw, catch, and hit for average. Where are these guys in this organization? If other teams can find and develop them, why can't the White Sox, too?

I'm tired of the guys who can hit for power [at home only], and then disappear away from home. I'm tired of Kenny drafting ex-football players that can't play dead, as Kenny tries to live his baseball dreams vicariously through his stupid draft picks. I'm tired of Kenny picking up players that he's had a man-crush on for years.[Griffey, Swisher, and others]

I'll give Kenny his due, in that he did put together a winner in '05. But its looking like this organization will go through a 3 year playoff drought. And I just don't see this "new core" of which you write.

I see a tired, old, lifeless team. I see expensive "has-beens" in this roster. I see gaping holes in the starting 9 that any one of us could've seen before the season. I see a team who blew their chance to win this year, and perhaps their only chance to win for YEARS, given the quality of the other teams in the division. I see a minor league system without much of quality. I see a lack of vision and direction in the player development at the minor league system.

munchman33
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
Yeah! Forget the fact that he is universally recognized as a top five GM.

I've seen many publications that have listed top GM's in baseball, some even ranked by peers. I've never once seen Kenny listed in the top five. This "universe" you're talking about....are you the only one living there?

russ99
09-26-2008, 11:04 AM
Ok, I'll play along. Exactly who do you consider a part of this "new core?"

Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez might go on to have fine careers, or they might continue the natural process of "White Soxing" into free-swinging, poor fielding sluggers that can't catch, run, or throw. We don't know if these guys are one year wonders or not.

Danks and Floyd might be a part of the "new core," but on the other hand, they might also be one year wonders as well.

Exactly who in the bullpen is a part of the "new core?" Boone "I-got-promoted-straight-from-ROOKIE-ball-because-the-front-office-didn't-have-a-better-plan" Logan? Wasserman? Ramirez? Who?

The OF is a joke, as well. The big acquisition in Swisher spent more time on the radio and TV running his piehole than he did on the basepaths this season. His numbers this year are WORSE than Rob Mackowiac's were when Kenny ran him out of town. And he cost the team 3 prospects, too!

What will the middle IF look like next year? For that matter, what will the corner IF look like? Does this team REALLY want YET ANOTHER slow strikeout-in-waiting who can't catch a cold at 3B next year in Fields? Does this team REALLY want a soft-spoken poor performer as their overpaid captain at 1B?

Speaking of which, WHO is this team's leader? It isn't Konerko, he of the "we'll just get them tomorrow"? Crap on Cabrera if you want, but at least I see him TRYING to win, unlike konerko and others in this team. And Cabrera will be GONE next year.


The other problem that I have with this team/Kenny is that I'd like to have a team with more interchangeable parts. I'd like to have some more players that can run, throw, catch, and hit for average. Where are these guys in this organization? If other teams can find and develop them, why can't the White Sox, too?

I'm tired of the guys who can hit for power [at home only], and then disappear away from home. I'm tired of Kenny drafting ex-football players that can't play dead, as Kenny tries to live his baseball dreams vicariously through his stupid draft picks. I'm tired of Kenny picking up players that he's had a man-crush on for years.[Griffey, Swisher, and others]

I'll give Kenny his due, in that he did put together a winner in '05. But its looking like this organization will go through a 3 year playoff drought. And I just don't see this "new core" of which you write.

I see a tired, old, lifeless team. I see expensive "has-beens" in this roster. I see gaping holes in the starting 9 that any one of us could've seen before the season. I see a team who blew their chance to win this year, and perhaps their only chance to win for YEARS, given the quality of the other teams in the division. I see a minor league system without much of quality. I see a lack of vision and direction in the player development at the minor league system.

The only rebuttal to that is would you rather have seen the 2008 White Sox without the players Kenny has brought in? He's done a spectacular job.

The man should be Executive of the Year and you want to run him out of town...

And I'd prefer my GM to take chances on Major Leaguers and Major League-ready players instead of relying on prospects who can and will fizzle out. Joe Borchard anyone?? Do you really expect Fields and Anderson to start for us next season? I certainly don't.

Kenny will continue to phase out the older declining players for new talent. Last September I was really in doubt about the future of the Sox going forward 3-5 years. This September I'm not (playoffs or not) and Kenny's the guy to thank for that.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 11:26 AM
Opti:

Remember though he was IN CHARGE of all minor league operations before he became the G.M.

He hired the guys, he hired the scouts and so forth.

And since he's been the G.M. he's approved all the hirings in the minor league system since them. He's also had to clean house in the wake of the scandal which I'm sure hurt him personally badly because of what his friend Wilder did.

So he has to assume some responsibility for the state of the system the past ten years. I'm hopefully Buddy Bell (Kenny's hire) can finally succeed.

Lip

khan
09-26-2008, 11:34 AM
The only rebuttal to that is would you rather have seen the 2008 White Sox without the players Kenny has brought in? He's done a spectacular job.
And I've already patted him on the back for Quentin and Alexei Ramirez. How about Griffey? And Horacio ramirez? And the immortal Rob Macko- I mean Nick Swisher? He's made more mistakes than good moves this year, if you look at the total picture. He FAILED to address the gaping hole in the pitching staff at the trade deadline. He FAILED to address the loss of Contreras when he got injured. Paul Byrd would've been a big help to this team, IMHO...

The man should be Executive of the Year and you want to run him out of town...
I disagree. And if you can show us exactly where I posted that I wanted him run out of town, let us know. OK?

Otherwise, I'm guessing you've been reading imaginary posts.

Joe Borchard anyone??
Thank you for making my point for me about FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYERS that Kenny drafted.

Do you really expect Fields and Anderson to start for us next season? I certainly don't.
Again, these are Kenny's picks. Fields is ANOTHER FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYER that can't keep himself from striking out. Another slugger who can't run, catch, throw, or hit for average. Another of the SAME. DAMN. THING.

Kenny will continue to phase out the older declining players for new talent.
When has he done this? He's ALWAYS gone for the older player over the younger one. Griffey, Thome, Dye, and others are examples of older players brought in to replace younger ones. I honestly can't remember if/when he's ever replaced an older player with a younger one.

Just to make sure that you understand me, I don't think that Kenny should be run out of town. He's won a world series, and he deserves credit for that. But he has to change some of his approaches. And this team needs some major changes, both at the big club, and in the minor leagues.

soxfan43
09-26-2008, 11:34 AM
I don't see us finding anyone better than Kenny to run the show. I think the problem here is timing, this is no time to be working on or announcing an extension for anyone in this organization. Same thing with Omar Minaya and the mets.

cards press box
09-26-2008, 11:48 AM
I'll give Kenny his due, in that he did put together a winner in '05. But its looking like this organization will go through a 3 year playoff drought. And I just don't see this "new core" of which you write.

I see a tired, old, lifeless team. I see expensive "has-beens" in this roster. I see gaping holes in the starting 9 that any one of us could've seen before the season. I see a team who blew their chance to win this year, and perhaps their only chance to win for YEARS, given the quality of the other teams in the division. I see a minor league system without much of quality. I see a lack of vision and direction in the player development at the minor league system.

Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, Floyd and Jenks just didn't fall into the Sox' lap. Kenny Williams acquired these players through shrewd moves. I also think that Nick Swisher will have good years for the Sox, even though this year has been somewhat disappointing.

Nothing in the farm system? Williams just drafted Gordon Beckham and Jordan Danks. By all accounts, Aaron Poreda is a top lefty pitcher and Juan Silverio is a blue chip middle infielder in the Sox system. Josh Fields has been plagued by injuries this year but, don't forget,he hit 24 homers in 2/3 of a season in 2007. The core of the Sox rotation is solid.

As you note, Williams has won a World Series. He also rebuilt the Sox on the fly and has put them into a position to compete for the pennant for years to come.

I know that everyone is disappointed about the series in Minnesota but that shouldn't cloud everyone's judgment. It is true that the Sox offense lacked speed and did not show a lot of balance this year. I don't know that the open market last offseason offered any type of solution for this problem. This year, Orlando Hudson will be available and, hopefully, there are several options on the table to bring some more speed, defense and balance to the White Sox. On the whole, Williams and Guillen have done good jobs. If the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, it is because they just didn't "have the horses," after losing so many key players to injury.

I've seen many publications that have listed top GM's in baseball, some even ranked by peers. I've never once seen Kenny listed in the top five. This "universe" you're talking about....are you the only one living there?

Kenny Williams is not only one of the best 5 GM's in the game today, he is the best GM that the White Sox have ever had. In fact, can anyone name a former White Sox GM that was better? I cannot.

areilly
09-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Kenny Williams is not only one of the best 5 GM's in the game today, he is the best GM that the White Sox have ever had. In fact, can anyone name a former White Sox GM that was better? I cannot.

I think that speaks more to the Sox' history of lame front office personnel than to the abilities of Kenny Williams.

khan
09-26-2008, 12:18 PM
Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, Floyd and Jenks just didn't fall into the Sox' lap. Kenny Williams acquired these players through shrewd moves.
I agree, and I laud Kenny for these moves.

I also think that Nick Swisher will have good years for the Sox, even though this year has been somewhat disappointing.
I disagree. He has neither the ability offensively, nor the work ethic to better himself. He's on TV more than he's on base. He can't run. He can't catch. He can't throw. He can't hit right-handed, and I no longer see why he should bother to try. He's an overpaid 4th OF at best. That Swisher cost the team 3 players is sad.

Nothing in the farm system? Williams just drafted Gordon Beckham and Jordan Danks.
And Williams has been in charge of the minor league system for a decade. While I look hopefully to the proposition of these two developing into something, it is equally possible that these two will not. They're YEARS away from being anything, unless the Sox stupidly rush them up, leading to yet another underdeveloped player.

By all accounts, Aaron Poreda is a top lefty pitcher
A two-pitch pitcher usually ends up in the bullpen. Actually, Poreda HIMSELF admitted that he had a good fastball, but not much else.

and Juan Silverio is a blue chip middle infielder in the Sox system.
I actually like Silverio, but he's years away from the big club.

Josh Fields has been plagued by injuries this year but, don't forget,he hit 24 homers in 2/3 of a season in 2007.
Also don't forget that he struck out 150 times in 2007. Any moron can swing for the fences in garbage time, as Fields did in 2007.
Also don't forget that he hit ~.250 this year IN AAA, which usually doesn't predict good numbers in the majors.
And that he can't catch a cold.
And that he can't run.
In other words, Josh Fields is yet another slow strikeout king that can't catch or run. He epitomizes exactly what is wrong with this team and this organization.

The core of the Sox rotation is solid.
Agreed.

As you note, Williams has won a World Series. He also rebuilt the Sox on the fly and has put them into a position to compete for the pennant for years to come.
No offense, but:

If you think that this team will compete with a younger, better Cleveland team and/or a younger, more fundamentally-sound Minnesota team in the future, then you simply don't understand baseball. With the way this team is constructed, and with the types of players it has, the White Sox just blew their only chance to win for the next couple of years, IMHO.

It is true that the Sox offense lacked speed and did not show a lot of balance this year.
And this has been a problem for the overwhelming majority of this decade. This team has been a slow-pitch softball team for years. Kenny's had ample time to fix it, and he's done exactly jack and **** about it.


On the whole, Williams and Guillen have done good jobs.
I agree. But they both have to approach their jobs differently to achieve different and better results. Kenny has to build the team differently. As in, maybe finding a few players that can run, catch, throw, and hit for average. As in, maybe CF and other spots are a good place to find a guy who is a "defense first" player, rather than yet another plodding slugger.

Ozzie has to teach the fundamentals differently and better. As in managing the run downs better. As in hitting situationally differently and better. As in finding other ways to win when the power isn't working.

It has been a decade under Williams, and 5 years under Guillen. And the team is STILL constructed the same way it was back in 2000-2003, just with different names. And the team STILL plays the same way, with poor defense, big power, but a poor ability to manufacture runs. Or hit to the right side. Or throw to the correct base. Or hold the other teams' runners on. Or keep the other team from running all over the basepaths.

Insanity is doing the same things over and over, but expecting different results. And it seems [to me, anyway] that they're doing the same things over, and over and over and over, with no end in sight.

If the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, it is because they just didn't "have the horses," after losing so many key players to injury.
And if this team did not "have the horses," it is ENTIRELY the GM's fault.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 12:26 PM
Cards:

Interesting question...it depends on your definition. If your definition is "win a World Series" then Kenny is it.

Personally I give it to Roland Hemond because of the state of the franchise when he took over. No money, few fans an aging decrepit stadium, rumors of a move to Milwaukee.

Yet in one season he went from 56 wins to 79. In two seasons they were fighting the A's for the division. Given all the surrounding circumstances (which Kenny has not had to face) my choice is Roland.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 12:26 PM
I've seen many publications that have listed top GM's in baseball, some even ranked by peers. I've never once seen Kenny listed in the top five. This "universe" you're talking about....are you the only one living there?
If you can name me five better -- go right ahead. Just two weeks ago Jim Duquette of MLB.com named Kenny the 4th best GM in the game. (http://video.aol.com/video-detail/duquette-baseballs-top-5-gms/1117804987) I've seen more than a few of the BP writers (even Sheehan) admit Kenny is now a top five general manager. Talking heads on sports radio/ESPN refer to KW as a top GM. Considering guys on the sabermetric side as well as the mainstream side think he's doing a good job, I'd say that's (in baseball terms) universal.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 12:31 PM
If you can name me five better -- go right ahead. Just two weeks ago Jim Duquette of MLB.com named Kenny the 4th best GM in the game. (http://video.aol.com/video-detail/duquette-baseballs-top-5-gms/1117804987) I've seen more than a few of the BP writers (even Sheehan) admit Kenny is now a top five general manager. Talking heads on sports radio/ESPN refer to KW as a top GM. Considering guys on the sabermetric side as well as the mainstream side think he's doing a good job, I'd say that's (in baseball terms) universal.
But baseball people say he's overrated!!!

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 12:37 PM
I agree, and I laud Kenny for these moves.


I disagree. He has neither the ability offensively, nor the work ethic to better himself. He's on TV more than he's on base. He can't run. He can't catch. He can't throw. He can't hit right-handed, and I no longer see why he should bother to try. He's an overpaid 4th OF at best. That Swisher cost the team 3 players is sad.


And Williams has been in charge of the minor league system for a decade. While I look hopefully to the proposition of these two developing into something, it is equally possible that these two will not. They're YEARS away from being anything, unless the Sox stupidly rush them up, leading to yet another underdeveloped player.


A two-pitch pitcher usually ends up in the bullpen. Actually, Poreda HIMSELF admitted that he had a good fastball, but not much else.


I actually like Silverio, but he's years away from the big club.


Also don't forget that he struck out 150 times in 2007. Any moron can swing for the fences in garbage time, as Fields did in 2007.
Also don't forget that he hit ~.250 this year IN AAA, which usually doesn't predict good numbers in the majors.
And that he can't catch a cold.
And that he can't run.
In other words, Josh Fields is yet another slow strikeout king that can't catch or run. He epitomizes exactly what is wrong with this team and this organization.


Agreed.


No offense, but:

If you think that this team will compete with a younger, better Cleveland team and/or a younger, more fundamentally-sound Minnesota team in the future, then you simply don't understand baseball. With the way this team is constructed, and with the types of players it has, the White Sox just blew their only chance to win for the next couple of years, IMHO.


And this has been a problem for the overwhelming majority of this decade. This team has been a slow-pitch softball team for years. Kenny's had ample time to fix it, and he's done exactly jack and **** about it.



I agree. They both have to approach their jobs differently to achieve different and better results.


And if this team did not "have the horses," it is ENTIRELY the GM's fault.
There are so many fallacies here that I'm not sure what to do with them. I'll organize them by color.

If you laud him for those moves, please recognize the fact that there are many GMs around the game who haven't made that many "impact" moves in their careers, let alone in the period of 05-08.

Complete and utter bull****. If he has no ability, what did he do in 2006 and 2007? Put the ball on a tee? Ever look at his BABIP? Line drive rate? Anything substantial? Oh, no, you just listened to Joe Cowley instigate and made fun of him for making infrequent appearances on Tribune Live. I get it. He sucks. Tell me, have you spent a lot of time with him working on his swing? I'm curious how you know so much about his work ethic.

Actually, Beckham will probably be here by 2010. He's a legit blue-chipper who has a fantastic shot of sticking in the middle of the infield for years to come. Also, Kenny's approach to the minor league system has been different from many others. He's used prospects to acquire major league talent, year after year. There are many teams with great farm systems, even elite farm systems (AZ) who continue to struggle. This draft was different, he built up the system drafting a ton of high reward guys. It will pay off.

And yet Poreda continues to dominate at nearly every level. Damn two pitch pitcher. Left handed power with that kind of control is worth the wait. Keep doubting him though, despite the results.

Other points:
-I wouldn't count on Silverio. You say you're a fan -- how many times have you seen him hit?
-Fields is valuable if used correctly.
-If you really think we should play some scrappy, hit-and-run bull**** in our ballpark, good luck finishing above the Royals. Could we be more athletic? Yes. Were we a good offensive team this season? No doubt about it.
-The "don't have the horses" line originated from OG -- who is a ****ing idiot. That's well established. KW needs a manager who won't constantly call him out for not acquiring his "type" (i.e. not good) of players.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 12:50 PM
Opti:

Remember though he was IN CHARGE of all minor league operations before he became the G.M.

He hired the guys, he hired the scouts and so forth.

And since he's been the G.M. he's approved all the hirings in the minor league system since them. He's also had to clean house in the wake of the scandal which I'm sure hurt him personally badly because of what his friend Wilder did.

So he has to assume some responsibility for the state of the system the past ten years. I'm hopefully Buddy Bell (Kenny's hire) can finally succeed.

Lip
I'm not saying KW doesn't shoulder any of the blame. He shoulders blame no matter what happens because he's the guy. All I'm saying is that sometimes you have to trust people and they let you down. You think you've got the right guys in place but you don't, and it takes a long time to figure that stuff out.

All the changes the Sox have made since the 2007 season are great to see but it only shows they recognize a problem and it's no guaranteed solution or even improvement. We're probably not going to see the benefits of these changes for at least another two to three years.

All we can hold Kenny 100% accountable for are the moves he's made. During this choking in Minnesota I have had a lot more problems with Ozzie's same lineups and sometimes baffling in-game decisions than I've had with the actual players Kenny has put on the roster - not the field but the roster, as it is Ozzie who decides who goes on the field. Sometimes the deals don't work (Swisher) but when you have players sitting on the bench that are capable of playing the type of game that needs to be played in order to beat the Twins and you instead go to the same damn all-or-nothing sluggers that haven't been hitting for weeks now, that is nobody's fault but Ozzie's. If he wanted to see something different he would've done something different, but Kenny isn't the one to blame here.

I think there are a few delusional posters on every Sox fan board who always have to pin things on the GM, obviously bypassing all the great moves he DID make to focus on all the ones he SHOULD have made when we don't even know if those mystery moves were possible, and, on top of that, it's all viewed in hindsight anyway. The same fans that say "I knew Josh Fields was going to never amount to anything!" said the same things about Gavin Floyd, proving they don't know **** from **** and thusly should shut the **** about Kenny's aptitude as a GM.

duke of dorwood
09-26-2008, 12:56 PM
I think that speaks more to the Sox' history of lame front office personnel than to the abilities of Kenny Williams.

Frank Lane was the best GM we ever had

khan
09-26-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm curious how you know so much about his work ethic.

I know when I have to focus at my job, I don't **** around or run my piehole in front of a TV camera. When I was in the Marines, we didn't **** around before going on a patrol in Mogidishu. We focused on the job at hand, so that we'd perform at our best. So that WE could win.

But here's that ***** Nick Swisher, running his piehole on TV and on radio, playing grabass, while his OBA plummets to a level that I could achieve at 37 years old and with my arthritic knees. He should blow off the media a little more, and work on becoming better at his job instead. THAT's how I know his work ethic sucks balls. THAT's why he won't ever be a good player.


Actually, Beckham will probably be here by 2010.

Which is, as I posted, YEARS from now. Assuming he doesn't get hurt or pick up bad habits along the way. But thank you for agreeing with me.

Also, Kenny's approach to the minor league system has been different from many others. He's used prospects to acquire major league talent, year after year.

And now, what is there to use to acquire major league talent at this point? To participate in this or any market, a trader has to have something of value. In baseball, for better or for worse, a team has to have some farmhands of value.

I don't mind using the minor leagues to acquire major league talent. But there have to be some useable pieces to trade.


And yet Poreda continues to dominate at nearly every level. Damn two pitch pitcher. Left handed power with that kind of control is worth the wait. Keep doubting him though, despite the results.

Sure. And many others have been lights out in the minor leagues, just by overpowering lesser talents in AA and AAA. By beating up guys who won't sniff the majors. In the bigs, a starter needs more than 1 quality pitch; A reliever can get by with 1 quality pitch. In effect, Poreda will become Matt Thornton at best? Good, but not great. [And again, this is assuming Poreda has a 2nd pitch to use with his fastball.]

-Fields is valuable if used correctly.

Yeah, as an organization guy to help the AAA team win games. He can't hit for average, run, or catch. He's yet another former football player that isn't very good at baseball.

Could we be more athletic? Yes.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Frank Lane was the best GM we ever had
From his comment I doubt he has any clue what he's talking about anyway. I haven't been around long enough to see the good runs of much of the past, but I grew up watching those 90's teams that those lame ducks built. BlackJack, Alvarez, Fernandez, Roberto Hernandez, Ventura, Thomas, Tim Raines, Cora and Guillen up the middle, etc. What a bunch of scrubs.:?:

sox1970
09-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Cards--

If Silverio is so great, why did he suck so bad in Rookie ball?

He's a 20 year old bust. And yes, he's 20.

palehozenychicty
09-26-2008, 01:19 PM
It's hard to pin the farm system on Kenny. He's made trades to make the Major League club better and I don't think you can fault a GM for trying to win, especially when his trades by and large have worked out as well as Kenny's has.

The problems with the Sox system extend far beyond Kenny's reach. Yes he's the man in charge, but he's not in the minor league clubhouses listening to what his coaches tell his players, he's not in Latin America making sure the scouts are giving the right guys the right contracts, and he's not the one afraid to consistently go over slot.

It's a LOT easier for GM's like Epstein and Cashman to build a farm when they have the ability to target top international free agents and still pick up great prospects who fall in the draft.

And, when it comes to signing major league talent for big money, Kenny is a lot smarter with his money. Contracts like Julio Lugo, Kei Igawa, and Carl Pavano would have crippled this team. Kenny has yet to make those kinds of mistakes.

Julio Lugo was a mistake, but those teams can afford to take those risks. The Yankees not having a good farm has finally caught up with them this year. It was only a matter of time.

The Red Sox lost Lugo and barely skipped a beat. Lowrie's already a better player and has potential to hit for power with a plus arm. So you can take more risks in FA if you have a good system. It's used for backup and nothing more.

Yes, KW wants to win, and I admire the effort. He's largely built the same type of team, however, during his reign. Too much power, not enough athleticism or fundamental play. He's been very good with grading pitchers, but position players have been uneven.

I just wish that since the organization doesn't traditionally pay for top-tier FAs, then invest more in your farm. It's easier to get more fundamental play and athleticism when you are drafting and nurturing those abilities. As people have said, it's difficult to teach power-hitting veterans how to sacrifice for one another. It's also difficult to revamp a team with just FAs and castoffs and be a perennial WS threat.

I think they're in a unique position to do both, so let's see if they can do it. Even with paying slightly above slot, you get a better cost-benefit investment for the long run.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2008, 01:29 PM
I know when I have to focus at my job, I don't **** around or run my piehole in front of a TV camera. When I was in the Marines, we didn't **** around before going on a patrol in Mogidishu. We focused on the job at hand, so that we'd perform at our best. So that WE could win.
Ah, what's the phrase I'm looking for here?

Quantum leap.

Your activities/demeanor in the Marines and Nick's activity/demeanor in MLB are truly apples and monkeys.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 01:47 PM
Julio Lugo was a mistake, but those teams can afford to take those risks. The Yankees not having a good farm has finally caught up with them this year. It was only a matter of time.

The Red Sox lost Lugo and barely skipped a beat. Lowrie's already a better player and has potential to hit for power with a plus arm. So you can take more risks in FA if you have a good system. It's used for backup and nothing more.

Yes, KW wants to win, and I admire the effort. He's largely built the same type of team, however, during his reign. Too much power, not enough athleticism or fundamental play. He's been very good with grading pitchers, but position players have been uneven.

I just wish that since the organization doesn't traditionally pay for top-tier FAs, then invest more in your farm. It's easier to get more fundamental play and athleticism when you are drafting and nurturing those abilities. As people have said, it's difficult to teach power-hitting veterans how to sacrifice for one another. It's also difficult to revamp a team with just FAs and castoffs and be a perennial WS threat.

I think they're in a unique position to do both, so let's see if they can do it. Even with paying slightly above slot, you get a better cost-benefit investment for the long run.
The Yankees have a very good farm and what they're dealing with now is IMO an overreliance on older players. Chamberlain and Hughes were elite pitching prospects, two of the best in all of baseball. They developed Wang, and Kennedy next year can easily be doing for the Yankees what Kevin Slowey is doing for the Twins. It just takes time. Some of the players don't work out, but by this time 2009 the baseball world could just as easily be gushing about how dominant the Yanks' rotation will be for the next 10 years.

Lugo was just a flat out stupid signing. Lowrie wasn't that far away even then and they could have gone with a short term commitment to a defensive stopgap yet opted to throw a ton of money at a poor defensive player even though they didn't need the extra offense.

I agree on the importance of investing more in the farm although I think a lot of this has to do with JR. As far as taking players with higher ceilings, they've done a much better job of that this year.

The main reason I want to see the Sox spend more on the draft is because it allows them to get prospects other teams want, and it seems that it's only the small market perpetually rebuilding teams that trade the best players. Since Kenny trades prospects I'd rather see him have the best farm possible, but it doesn't have much at all to do with having homegrown pre-arb players. If the difference between trading for Dan Haren and trading for Jarrod Washburn is $8 million worth of prospects, spend the $8 million and get the better player on the better contract.

EuroSox35
09-26-2008, 01:57 PM
It would be well deserved imo. I'll just quote what I said in the gamethread, that I couldn't put the blame on Kenny if this team didn't get it done:

The 4 best players for the Sox this season, the reason we are here, in no particular order, Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, Floyd. If it weren't for an injury Ozzie would have sent Quentin down in favor of Owens. We know the great deals Kenny pulled off for Quentin and Ramirez. People are mad about the Garland trade, well, if it wasn't for that, one of Floyd and Danks, our two best pitchers, don't get to pitch. Meanwhile, he basically had a real tough decision to pick between Garland and Buehrle, and Buehrle has been much better this year. I'm just sick of him getting a lot of blame, when he pulled rabbits out of his ass after losing out of big name guys

No, this isn't the perfect team, Kenny isn't perfect, but neither are teams that are put together with over 250 million dollars.Not to mention those 4 are also very young, meaning you can build around them, you can expect more from them, etc. Sure, he seems to get the under the radar guys that other teams push away, but he sure as hell seems to be right a lot (Jenks, Thornton, the players I already mentioned, etc)

areilly
09-26-2008, 02:02 PM
From his comment I doubt he has any clue what he's talking about anyway. I haven't been around long enough to see the good runs of much of the past, but I grew up watching those 90's teams that those lame ducks built. BlackJack, Alvarez, Fernandez, Roberto Hernandez, Ventura, Thomas, Tim Raines, Cora and Guillen up the middle, etc. What a bunch of scrubs.:?:

Those were the same teams I grew up with, but you have to look before that. Sox GMs have, historically, built a lot of entertaining contenders at best - and yes, I realize it could be worse. Yes, there was Hemond; but there was also Hawkeroo.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2008, 02:15 PM
Daver has said and perhaps he can supply some numbers, that the Sox haven't spent additional money on the farm system in ten years or so.

Lip

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 02:27 PM
Daver has said and perhaps he can supply some numbers, that the Sox haven't spent additional money on the farm system in ten years or so.

Lip


Just a possibility, who knows?, JR may give KW a free rein, gives him a lump sum of cash to spend as he sees fit. KW may make the decision on how much for the sox and how much for the minors.
Again, other than the bean counters, who knows?

khan
09-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Your activities/demeanor in the Marines and Nick's activity/demeanor in MLB are truly apples and monkeys.

What, too heavy for you?

OK, how about this: In my CURRENT job, when I have an important presentation or a big client to meet, I don't **** around or play grabass, like The Immortal Nick Swisher does. Still nothing?


OK, maybe the next time The Immortal Nick Swisher is playing in CF, he can look to his left and to his right at the team's two MVP candidates:

One is an aging guy who, despite his diminishing abilities, stays focused on the job at hand. I don't see him on TV or hear him on the radio when he struggles. I don't read stories about him ****ing around when the team needs to be focused. Maybe that's why he's been able to endure and excell when other players are out of the game.

The other is a young guy, with an injury history. He too doesn't play grabass or **** around. He does what is necessary to improve. When the rest of the league had him scouted earlier this season, he adapted and continued to excell. Maybe that's why this youngster, WHO WAS AN AFTERTHOUGHT in spring training, has an OBP that is higher than Swisher's. Maybe his focus, work ethic, and professionalism are why [until his injury] he was carrying this team of clowns. This, despite his relative lack of experience.


But not The Immortal Nick Swisher. He's more focused on having Corey from Fox ask him stupid questions. He's more focused on hearing the sound of his own voice on the radio. Great work ethic, no?

Daver
09-26-2008, 02:44 PM
Just a possibility, who knows?, JR may give KW a free rein, gives him a lump sum of cash to spend as he sees fit. KW may make the decision on how much for the sox and how much for the minors.
Again, other than the bean counters, who knows?

JR let's the baseball people run the team, the only time he gets involved is when he is asked too, like Frank Thomas' contract negotiations years ago. I have been told that by more than enough people involved with the team to doubt it.

Noneck
09-26-2008, 02:49 PM
JR let's the baseball people run the team, the only time he gets involved is when he is asked too, like Frank Thomas' contract negotiations years ago. I have been told that by more than enough people involved with the team to doubt it.


Did you mean this this or did you mean "I have been told that by more than enough people involved with the team to not doubt it."

Viva Medias B's
09-26-2008, 02:52 PM
Folks:

It's not even an issue... as long as Jerry is running the show, Kenny will be the G.M.

Now Kenny at some point might decide to leave but it will be his decision, JR will never fire him, you can write that in concrete.

Lip

JR will be as loyal to KW as Wirtz was to Pulford.

Paulwny
09-26-2008, 02:52 PM
JR let's the baseball people run the team, the only time he gets involved is when he is asked too, like Frank Thomas' contract negotiations years ago. I have been told that by more than enough people involved with the team to doubt it.

So does JR give KW the money/budget and KW determines how much for the big club and how much for the minors ?

Daver
09-26-2008, 03:07 PM
So does JR give KW the money/budget and KW determines how much for the big club and how much for the minors ?
KW runs all baseball operations, the accounts determine the budget.

Daver
09-26-2008, 03:08 PM
Did you mean this this or did you mean "I have been told that by more than enough people involved with the team to not doubt it."

Yeah, I really shoud learn to type.

D. TODD
09-26-2008, 03:09 PM
Well deserved, I'm all for keeping KW!

Domeshot17
09-26-2008, 03:19 PM
Meh, Kenny is just par for the course. He is an average GM. He wins some trades like Quentin, and he loses some trades like Swisher. He has his pro's that he is aggressive, and he has his cons that he falls in love with guys and brings them in expecting them to play like they did in their prime (Thome-JR-Alomar-Alomar). He is one of the worst GM's in the league when it comes to drafting and developing players (and hiring the staff to do so). In his 10 years not 1 of his first round picks has become anything in the major leagues. He has blown money and top round picks on players like HIS OWN SON. He has constantly passed on prime talent to draft easy signs (passing on Rick Porcello, who is considered one of the 10 best arms in the minors for Aaron Poreda who most do not even project as a Starting Pitching), and refuses to draft or sign Boras clients (which really screws us come draft time). However, he does do a good job of spinning prospects.

He doesn't suck, far from it. However this notion he is some fantastic GM is just being blind. He is what he is and that is an average GM. He brought us a World Series but that was also his only post season trip. He pretty much has proven he is able to put together teams that can win between 85-88 games a year, fight for a spot. He has shown he can sometimes find bargains on the FA market but will never compete for a top tier FA, that he works primarily through Trades before the season and isn't great and making the team better at the trade deadline. What you see is what you get with him.

Dibbs
09-26-2008, 03:36 PM
I am all for giving Kenny an extension. He makes more great moves than he does bad ones. He is a hard working guy and is aggressive towards improving the club.

cards press box
09-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Cards:

Interesting question...it depends on your definition. If your definition is "win a World Series" then Kenny is it.

Personally I give it to Roland Hemond because of the state of the franchise when he took over. No money, few fans an aging decrepit stadium, rumors of a move to Milwaukee.

Yet in one season he went from 56 wins to 79. In two seasons they were fighting the A's for the division. Given all the surrounding circumstances (which Kenny has not had to face) my choice is Roland.

Lip

I can totally see that. If Bill Melton doesn't get hurt in '72, the Sox might well have caught the A's and gone to the World Series. That '72 team is still one my all-time favorites.

You make an excellent point. For much of his tenure, Roland Hemond had to work around severe financial constraints and persistent relocation rumors. Williams, though, has had to deal with this inexplicable Cub phenomenon draining much of the revenue and resources available from baseball fans in this market. Cubs mania, as we now know it, didn't really fully explode until late in Hemond's tenure. The fact that the Cubs have drawn 3 million for godawful teams essentially cretaed a permanent barrier preventing the Sox from drawing the resources necessary to compete for a World Series.

In 2005, through shrewd personnel and management decisions, Williams broke through this barrier and got the title for the White Sox. That's why I would pick him over Hemond, albeit just by a nose.


Frank Lane was the best GM we ever had

I know that he made two of the great one-sided trades ever (Joe Tipton for Nellie Fox) and (Aaron Robinson for Billy Pierce) and that he put the Go-Go Sox in place but he still ranks behind Williams. In his time with the White Sox and other teams, Lane made many, many deals. Some of them made no sense, like Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn. Lane arguably put the Sox in the '59 series when, as Indians GM, he traded Early Wynn and Al Smith to the White Sox for Minnie Minoso. In the end, Lane was just too mercurial and his record doesn't match the number of small deals (like picking Bobby Jenks off of the waiver wire or dealing Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin) that Williams has made and that have yielded great dividends.

Noneck
09-26-2008, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I really shoud learn to type.

I am crap at that also.

I was just hoping that you had a juicy tidbit.

cards press box
09-26-2008, 04:33 PM
Josh Fields is yet another slow strikeout king that can't catch or run. He epitomizes exactly what is wrong with this team and this organization..

Fields is having surgery in the offseason on his knee. It's hard to judge what kind of offensive player he will be until we have an opportunity to play for couple of seasons while healthy. He hasn't shown much defense at 3rd base, though. Hopefully, that will improve

No offense, but:

If you think that this team will compete with a younger, better Cleveland team and/or a younger, more fundamentally-sound Minnesota team in the future, then you simply don't understand baseball. With the way this team is constructed, and with the types of players it has, the White Sox just blew their only chance to win for the next couple of years, IMHO.

No offense to you but I understand baseball perfectly well. The Sox have a good catcher in AJ. He is 31 and should have some fine years behind the plate. The Sox have Alexei Ramirez at either SS or 2B and he is a star in the making. Gordon Beckham might not get here for a couple of years, so I would expect the Sox to explore free agent options at 2B, like Orlando Hudson or Mark Ellis. Like Beckham, Jordan Danks might not get to CF for a couple of years but the Sox might have some options, including the somewhat forgetten Brian Anderson, who has had a nice comeback year.

The Sox, as you admit, have a solid corps of startersa nd have Jenks in the bullpen. So, the Sox have strength up the middle, strength in the starting rotation, a lights out closer (although, unfornuately, not last night), a budding MVP candidate in Carlos Quentin and you're telling me the Sox have no chance the next couple of years? Huh?

Detroit will, no doubt, revamp their roster. Cleveland is currently rebuilding and they have problems of their own. What's more, can they reasonably count on Cliff Lee going 22-3 next year? Minnesota is one year away from abandoning their dome stadium and will have to adjust to that. They won't be able to play pinball in that stupid dome any more and, who knows, their pitch and putt offense might not work so well in a normal park. Beyond that, Liriano has not looked dominant and, in the end, they have a staff full of #3 starters and Joe Nathan who, for the first time in a long time, has looked somewhat vulnerable down the stretch (although, unfornuately, not last night). With a few moves, the Sox could easily stay in the mix in this division for a while.


This team has been a slow-pitch softball team for years. Kenny's had ample time to fix it, and he's done exactly jack and **** about it.

If the Sox ran a "pitch-and-putt team" out in U.S. Cellular Field, they would ge killed, pure and simple. Yes, they need more speed at the non-power positions. Guys like Alexei Ramirez, who combine speed and power, are rare. Oh yeah, and who signed Ramirez?


And if this team did not "have the horses," it is ENTIRELY the GM's fault.

Please do not take my quote out of context. They don't have the horses now because they have decimated with injuries in the last month. The Sox 3rd baseman has been out essentially the entire 2nd half, the Sox lost their 3rd starter in August, the Sox lost their second best reliever in late July and, to top it all off, the Sox lost their MVP candidate in September. No team has enough depth to deal with that.

The Sox "had the horses" for most of the season. It appears, however, that perhaps they could not withstand injuries to four critical players down the stretch. That is not the GM's fault. It's nobody's fault.

khan
09-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Fields is having surgery in the offseason on his knee. It's hard to judge what kind of offensive player he will be until we have an opportunity to play for couple of seasons while healthy. He hasn't shown much defense at 3rd base, though. Hopefully, that will improve.
I disagree. Fields is a strikeout king, and he's BEEN a strikeout king, even before he hurt his knee. As you stated, he can't catch a cold. And, based on the way he reacted to not being handed the 3B spot, I question his heart, desire, drive, and professionalism. In short, based on his play, I think he sucks. Based on how he reacted to being sent to Charlotte, I think he's a p***** and a coward.

Cleveland is currently rebuilding and they have problems of their own. What's more, can they reasonably count on Cliff Lee going 22-3 next year?
Sure, but I'd rather have Cleveland's roster that boasts both a 30 base stealer [Sizemore] as well as a few 30 HR hitters [when healthy] than the Sox's collection of beer league players. They have a Cy Young Award winner in Lee, and a future star in Carmona. Theirs is a BASEBALL team that is versatile, in that they can beat you with speed AND power, where we have a softball team. BASEBALL teams win BASEBALL games. Softball teams tend to lose big games.

Granted Cleveland has a few holes in their bullpen, but one or two signings can change that.


Minnesota is one year away from abandoning their dome stadium and will have to adjust to that.
But they play BASEBALL, not softball. With all of their problems, they still do the little things right. They can catch the ball, run, hit for average, situationally hit, and throw. We can't.


If the Sox ran a "pitch-and-putt team" out in U.S. Cellular Field, they would ge killed, pure and simple.
And if you can show us where I posted that the Sox should be a "pitch-and-putt team," you'll let us know right? Otherwise, you're reading imaginary posts again.

I think there is plenty of room in a 40 man roster for both a 30 base stealer AND a 30 HR hitter. There is room for a few guys that can catch and throw, too. There is room for a player or two that can play more than one position. There is room for a guy who can hit in critical situations. Cleveland already has most, if not all of these things. But for some reason you [and Kenny] believe that it has to be ALL power/no speed, or ALL speed/no power.

Given all of this, I think Kenny deserves an extension. But he has to change his approach to constructing a team. Otherwise, we're doomed to watching the same thing next year, and the year after that, and the year after that...

veeter
09-26-2008, 05:31 PM
Great news. The Sox will get at least one more ring with Kenny Williams as the GM.

FedEx227
09-26-2008, 05:38 PM
Just a possibility, who knows?, JR may give KW a free rein, gives him a lump sum of cash to spend as he sees fit. KW may make the decision on how much for the sox and how much for the minors.
Again, other than the bean counters, who knows?

Kenny has proven in his years as Sox GM he does not value the minor league system and has no plans to build or develop through the system. That's become blatantly clear. It's nothing against him because he's put a competitive team on the field and has done it with relative youth, but he has no interest in building from the farm. Money will not change that.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 06:45 PM
Detroit will, no doubt, revamp their roster. Cleveland is currently rebuilding and they have problems of their own. What's more, can they reasonably count on Cliff Lee going 22-3 next year? Minnesota is one year away from abandoning their dome stadium and will have to adjust to that. They won't be able to play pinball in that stupid dome any more and, who knows, their pitch and putt offense might not work so well in a normal park. Beyond that, Liriano has not looked dominant and, in the end, they have a staff full of #3 starters and Joe Nathan who, for the first time in a long time, has looked somewhat vulnerable down the stretch (although, unfornuately, not last night). With a few moves, the Sox could easily stay in the mix in this division for a while.

I agree with pretty much all of what you wrote so I'm just quoting what I'll comment on.

The talk is Detroit will be cutting payroll, and how do they expect to do that without practically gutting their team? The only players making a lot of money that other teams would love to have are Maggs, Cabrera, and possibly Carlos Guillen. Polanco could fetch a ton but he's not exactly breaking the bank; in fact his contract dollar-for-dollar is one of the best bargains around the game for a post-arbitration player. Robertson would be a salary dump, Bonderman would fetch something although IMO it wouldn't be enough to justify giving up on him and opening another hole in the rotation, and nobody is going to take Sheffield or Willis. It is going to be extremely difficult for the Tigers to work this offseason, and while they have boatloads of talent on paper and a rebound is certainly not out of the question, a whole lot would have to go right for them.

Cleveland it appears has been one giant mess since the end of their glory days. Yes, they made a huge run in the 2nd half of '05 and almost made the World Series last year, but that team is loaded with extremely inconsistent players. They've got some nice SP but Sabathia's loss is going to hurt and it's pretty safe to say Cliff Lee won't replicate this year's performance just because he's set the bar so freaking high for himself. The 2009 Indians could just as easily end up in first as last, so they're not a threat until they prove they're a threat. Besides, this is another team that seems to only show up for one half of the season.

Minnesota will have to play a different type of game once that park is finished, but they're already changing to a type of team that will be successful in that park. The Twins of 2010 and beyond are going to hit a lot more home runs than the Twins we're used to, and the proof is in that young 3-4-5-6 group of Mauer-Morneau-Kubel-Young. They'll still be a balanced team that plays the right way, but that heart of the order is going to be much more dangerous in the future than it is now.

Optipessimism
09-26-2008, 07:33 PM
Those were the same teams I grew up with, but you have to look before that. Sox GMs have, historically, built a lot of entertaining contenders at best - and yes, I realize it could be worse. Yes, there was Hemond; but there was also Hawkeroo.
I realize as a franchise we've had our darker moments, but you're saying KW looks as good as he does mainly because of his predecessors? Kenny's most recent predecessors were actually pretty successful, all things considered. Had those 90's teams existed during the era of divisional play, and had it not been for the strike in '94, we easily could have won a WS or two during that period. Every single year I see teams make the playoffs in both leagues that couldn't hold a candle to some of those Sox teams.

As far as the people who came before that point, how many people would really look back 25 years or more to compare a GM of the past to Kenny Williams? There wouldn't be a point in it anyway. It was an entirely different ballgame back then; there's nothing to compare.

Kenny looks good because of Brian Sabean's AJ trade. He looks good because of the Yankees' bad FA signings. He looks good because while Orioles have been blowing tons of money for years now just to continue finishing in the cellar, Kenny has been able to take two horrible disappointments - the '04 Sox and the '07 Sox - and turn one into a WS winner and the other into a potential division winner. Kenny looks good because he's built the cores of his teams through undervalued players like Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, Uribe, Jermaine Dye, Jenks, etc., who were considered busts, has-beens, or never-will-be's. You can only successfully compare Kenny Williams to his competition in this era, and against that competition Kenny is a terrific general manager.

Also, your comments about "entertaining contenders at best" shows an attitude common with Sox fans that seems to say anything short of making the playoffs is a wasted season. Let me ask you seriously, how much better did it feel to see the Sox get swept by the Mariners in 2000 in comparison to their choking down the stretch in 2006? Personally, I couldn't tell them apart. They both sucked. The only differences are that the choking in '06 was more drawn out and the death blow came after we were already beaten lifeless, while against the Mariners in 2000 it was a quicker, yet more permanent and less humane death because hope still existed well into the final game.

It is the race itself that puts asses in seats, creates fan interest, and supports payroll. Kenny has put us in some races and he's made the type of moves that convince fans he wants to finish those races. That's really all you can ask for. Give me Kenny and his shrewdness any day over the Twins who show up in Spring Training after a "winning" season in which they got their asses handed to them in the playoffs without having made one significant addition to convince the fans they actually care about winning it all.

Tragg
09-26-2008, 08:53 PM
He's made some of the best moves in recent memory, but he's also made some of the dumbest moves in recent memory, as well. KGJ, Horacio Ramirez and Nick Swisher hurt. Bad. I just want him to be more consistent. I'd be happy with him making just average moves if it eliminates the stupid ones.
He's made a lot of trades that didn't help much. But look at the other side - what did he give up in those trades? Not many difference-makers that's for sure.
He's got the guts to make trades - that's a rare commodity in itself.
I think the biggest weakness has been the quality of the draft.

As for Guillen - isn't he tied up for another 5 years or something? He got a crazy extension last year.

DrCrawdad
09-26-2008, 09:52 PM
I've been a KW supporter since he got the job, but I'm non-too-pleased with the results of the Swisher trade and the late p/u of KGJr was a dud.

whitesoxfan1986
09-26-2008, 10:34 PM
I believe that the Yankees fans have this whole baseball season thing correct. Any season that does not end with a ring on your team's finger is a complete failure when you have the horses. As fans, at the start of every season where you have the talent to compete, you should expect to at least have a shot. I like KW because this is his mindset. he goes into each offseason with the "What can I do to help my team win NOW" attitude.
There is a point where you may have the horses, but the horses aren't performing like they should. Example: when your entire team is approaching their mid 30s and a decline in performance is upon them, and you need a roster overhaul now because you need to sell high on these players because they will become overpriced. At this point, you need to blow it up and rebuild.

What is a big no-no for a GM, in my opinion when rebuilding, is to trade these guys for A ball players. You do exactly what KW does, you trade them for ML ready talent, guys who are blocked by productive players in an organization, or guys who have all of the tools, but haven't put it together yet at the ML level and are still in the 24-26 year old range. You go find guys like Carlos Quentin, Gavin Floyd, and John Danks. This way you minimize the crappy years, and hell may even eliminate them. I think the Sox, at this point, need to trade off their older players, and go into a mini rebuilding phase. They have a core of young, talented, and productive players, but the supporting cast around them sucks. If I were KW I would go search the Tampa Bay farm system for Major league ready talent that will not make it to the majors with the team because their roster is full of young, blossoming major league talent. TB's rotation is already filled up, trade for some of their young arms for petes sake, or if they like their young guys more, take the guys they have now.


Even when you rebuild, you don't have to lose 90-100 games. Look at the Twins this year, they traded Santana and let Hunter go, and everyone banished them to the basement, but they acquired major league ready talent, and they are in first place. So, even when you "rebuild" you can still compete.

FedEx227
09-26-2008, 11:21 PM
I believe that the Yankees fans have this whole baseball season thing correct. Any season that does not end with a ring on your team's finger is a complete failure.

I'm sorry, but that's a very stupid theory, when the odds are about 3% at the beginning of the year. You can't honestly tell me 29 teams year in and year out are failing. A team that rebuilds and improves their win total is not a failing team, they've had a successful season. It's a very unreasonable notion to think your team is going to win a World Series every single year.

And if that's the correct baseball mentality to have: the Yankees have failed 74% of the time.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2008, 12:08 AM
1986:

Paragraphs are your friend.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-27-2008, 01:08 AM
1986:

Paragraphs are your friend.

LipAmen. I took one look at that block of text and skipped right over it.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2008, 04:55 AM
I can totally see that. If Bill Melton doesn't get hurt in '72, the Sox might well have caught the A's and gone to the World Series. That '72 team is still one my all-time favorites.

You make an excellent point. For much of his tenure, Roland Hemond had to work around severe financial constraints and persistent relocation rumors. Williams, though, has had to deal with this inexplicable Cub phenomenon draining much of the revenue and resources available from baseball fans in this market. Cubs mania, as we now know it, didn't really fully explode until late in Hemond's tenure. The fact that the Cubs have drawn 3 million for godawful teams essentially cretaed a permanent barrier preventing the Sox from drawing the resources necessary to compete for a World Series.

In 2005, through shrewd personnel and management decisions, Williams broke through this barrier and got the title for the White Sox. That's why I would pick him over Hemond, albeit just by a nose.




I know that he made two of the great one-sided trades ever (Joe Tipton for Nellie Fox) and (Aaron Robinson for Billy Pierce) and that he put the Go-Go Sox in place but he still ranks behind Williams. In his time with the White Sox and other teams, Lane made many, many deals. Some of them made no sense, like Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn. Lane arguably put the Sox in the '59 series when, as Indians GM, he traded Early Wynn and Al Smith to the White Sox for Minnie Minoso. In the end, Lane was just too mercurial and his record doesn't match the number of small deals (like picking Bobby Jenks off of the waiver wire or dealing Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin) that Williams has made and that have yielded great dividends.
I'm going to give credit to Hemond over Williams because Hemond took a 100 loss team and within two years had it fighting for a playoff spot with virtually no payroll. He did the same thing again in 1977 and some of the moves he made in '77 led to us winning the division in '83. Also he brought up guys like Tony LaRussa, David Dombrowski and Walt Jocketty (all three of whom have rings) under his tutitlidge (forgive my spelling). I am convinced that had we not fired Hemond in '85 for Hawk, we would not have had the dark ages of the late 1980s.

FarWestChicago
09-27-2008, 06:37 AM
I've seen many publications that have listed top GM's in baseball, some even ranked by peers. I've never once seen Kenny listed in the top five. This "universe" you're talking about....are you the only one living there?Let me give you a hint, munch. When you look at those "lists" and see munchman33 at the top...it means you are hallucinating. You aren't actually the best GM in baseball. :wink:

jabrch
09-27-2008, 11:51 AM
I've been a KW supporter since he got the job, but I'm non-too-pleased with the results of the Swisher trade and the late p/u of KGJr was a dud.

Craw - Swish had a bad year - but he was not really outperformed significantly by the guys we gave up. I know Sweeney had an OK year, but a corner OF with a .385 SLG% is just not what we need. I know the .288/.351 would have been nice, but he wouldn't have played here at all until CQ got hurt. DLS and Gio have done nothing good this year - between injury (DLS) and failure (Gio).

The trade didn't work out in hindsight - but it wasn't a terrible move. Nick isn't my type of ball player. I like guys who are more aggressive swingers than Swisher. But that being said, everyone kept saying we needed more OBP. That was his calling card in Oak.

I'm willing to wait a year or two to see what Nick does, and to see what Sweeney/Gio/DLS do to call that a bad deal.

soxfanreggie
09-27-2008, 04:05 PM
Doesn't he have a contract that automatically adds a year, every year. Will this be a contract that actually defines the length and take out the auto renewal? I think the contract can be terminated with a low buyout, which may be why they're doing this.

asindc
09-27-2008, 04:37 PM
Amen. I took one look at that block of text and skipped right over it.

I did the same thing.

DrCrawdad
09-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Craw - Swish had a bad year - but he was not really outperformed significantly by the guys we gave up. I know Sweeney had an OK year, but a corner OF with a .385 SLG% is just not what we need. I know the .288/.351 would have been nice, but he wouldn't have played here at all until CQ got hurt. DLS and Gio have done nothing good this year - between injury (DLS) and failure (Gio).

The trade didn't work out in hindsight - but it wasn't a terrible move. Nick isn't my type of ball player. I like guys who are more aggressive swingers than Swisher. But that being said, everyone kept saying we needed more OBP. That was his calling card in Oak.

I'm willing to wait a year or two to see what Nick does, and to see what Sweeney/Gio/DLS do to call that a bad deal.

Yeah, but we gave up 2 young arms who could have been used in a better trade plus Sweeney probably has been nearly as good as Swisher (I don't want to debate this but just merely pointing out that Swish has sucked. Swish is probably a better run producer.)

Let's not overlook too that to get Griffey the Sox traded away another BP arm in Nick Masset.

I'm not calling for KW's head on a pole, but IMHO these two trades did nothing to improve the Sox, depleted us of valuable, trade-able parts.

Tragg
09-27-2008, 07:36 PM
Yeah, but we gave up 2 young arms who could have been used in a better trade plus Sweeney probably has been nearly as good as Swisher (I don't want to debate this but just merely pointing out that Swish has sucked. Swish is probably a better run producer.)


Yep there's an opportunity cost - we could have used those players to get someone better.
Plus, Sweeney's played as good a CF as a bunch of the people we put out there this year.....Guillen's the one who saw no use in Sweeney.

Daver
09-27-2008, 09:53 PM
Let me give you a hint, munch. When you look at those "lists" and see munchman33 at the top...it means you are hallucinating. You aren't actually the best GM in baseball. :wink:

Munch's list also says unproven minor league pitchers are far more valuable than major league players with a proven history. I think the list is written by leprechauns.

munchman33
09-27-2008, 09:59 PM
Let me give you a hint, munch. When you look at those "lists" and see munchman33 at the top...it means you are hallucinating. You aren't actually the best GM in baseball. :wink:

Munch's list also says unproven minor league pitchers are far more valuable than major league players with a proven history. I think the list is written by leprechauns.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/03/seinfeld-wiz.jpg

whitesoxfan1986
09-27-2008, 10:18 PM
I'm sorry, but that's a very stupid theory, when the odds are about 3% at the beginning of the year. You can't honestly tell me 29 teams year in and year out are failing. A team that rebuilds and improves their win total is not a failing team, they've had a successful season. It's a very unreasonable notion to think your team is going to win a World Series every single year.

And if that's the correct baseball mentality to have: the Yankees have failed 74% of the time.
Did you read my whole post? What I said(though not very well, I admit. I revised my post for clarification) is that for teams that have the talent pool assembled to contend, anything short of a title is a complete failure. When you're rebuilding, it's a different story. I would say that about 1/3 of the majors falls into the win or you failed category. I also think that teams who turn over their roster and do not start to compete within 2-4 years should fire their GMs. After that happens it is clear that the GM you have sucks at talent evaluation, and since the only way out now is to build through the draft, you need someone who you believe can identify talent.

The two teams that stubbornly won't get rid of the talented, but aging players in their mid 30s are the Yankees and the Sox. In order to consistently contend, IMO, you have to have most of your team in the 27-33 year old range. Guys who are 33-34 and solid, but not superstars (guys like Konerko and Dye fall into this category) should be phased out of the team and sold high on for young talent, and the young talent should be acquired smartly. I can't stand when teams trade for guys in A ball. You trade for guys who are Major league ready(Danks), or guys who are major league talent, but are blocked(TCQ) or reclamation projects like Gavin Floyd, who are still young and have a chance. Homer Bailey is numero uno on my offseason wish list. Think Gavin all over again, but with better stuff.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2008, 10:44 PM
Paragraphs are your friend (times two)

Lip

whitesoxfan1986
09-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Paragraphs are your friend (times two)

Lip
I fixed both of them so people can read it easier. If you want to read it now, go ahead.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2008, 11:25 PM
Thank you. Not being sarcastic, without them they look like one long run on sentence.

Lip

Daver
09-27-2008, 11:35 PM
Did you read my whole post? What I said(though not very well, I admit. I revised my post for clarification) is that for teams that have the talent pool assembled to contend, anything short of a title is a complete failure. When you're rebuilding, it's a different story. I would say that about 1/3 of the majors falls into the win or you failed category. I also think that teams who turn over their roster and do not start to compete within 2-4 years should fire their GMs. After that happens it is clear that the GM you have sucks at talent evaluation, and since the only way out now is to build through the draft, you need someone who you believe can identify talent.

The two teams that stubbornly won't get rid of the talented, but aging players in their mid 30s are the Yankees and the Sox. In order to consistently contend, IMO, you have to have most of your team in the 27-33 year old range. Guys who are 33-34 and solid, but not superstars (guys like Konerko and Dye fall into this category) should be phased out of the team and sold high on for young talent, and the young talent should be acquired smartly. I can't stand when teams trade for guys in A ball. You trade for guys who are Major league ready(Danks), or guys who are major league talent, but are blocked(TCQ) or reclamation projects like Gavin Floyd, who are still young and have a chance. Homer Bailey is numero uno on my offseason wish list. Think Gavin all over again, but with better stuff.

The Rangers did not consider Danks MLB ready, that is why he was traded for McCarthy, who made enough starts to convince scouts he was ready. I have been told, and I doubt the veracity of it, that Kirk Champion scouted Danks and Masset himself.

MISoxfan
09-29-2008, 01:57 PM
Who are all of these slow players who can't hit for average, field, or throw the ball? I think the only one on the entire roster that fits that definition is Thome and he is a DH. Thome's average should rebound a bit next season anyway.

palehozenychicty
09-29-2008, 02:14 PM
Who are all of these slow players who can't hit for average, field, or throw the ball? I think the only one on the entire roster that fits that definition is Thome and he is a DH. Thome's average should rebound a bit next season anyway.


That's a strong leap of faith for a brittle DH in the post-steroid, PED era.

Flight #24
09-29-2008, 02:53 PM
It's hard to pin the farm system on Kenny. He's made trades to make the Major League club better and I don't think you can fault a GM for trying to win, especially when his trades by and large have worked out as well as Kenny's has.

The problems with the Sox system extend far beyond Kenny's reach. Yes he's the man in charge, but he's not in the minor league clubhouses listening to what his coaches tell his players, he's not in Latin America making sure the scouts are giving the right guys the right contracts, and he's not the one afraid to consistently go over slot.


I fault Kenny not for the talent level, but for the fact that throughout his tenure as Farm director and GM he's preached "execution", but his young players are consistently unable to execute. When an individual player or 2 cannot do it, that's on them. But over an extended period of time, when they consistently cannot, that's on the system and by extension, the guy who's in charge of that system and has the ability to put people in place to develop those fundamentals.

Kenny gives it lip service, but the proof is in the consistent (lack of) results. That's why the Twins can consistently compete and win close games with 2-4 good players and an array of who-dats who actually....contribute offensively because they move guys along, bunt, hit sac flies, etc. Whereas the Sox, while more talented top to bottom, crap the bed when it comes to anything fundamental.

palehozenychicty
09-29-2008, 03:22 PM
The Yankees have a very good farm and what they're dealing with now is IMO an overreliance on older players. Chamberlain and Hughes were elite pitching prospects, two of the best in all of baseball. They developed Wang, and Kennedy next year can easily be doing for the Yankees what Kevin Slowey is doing for the Twins. It just takes time. Some of the players don't work out, but by this time 2009 the baseball world could just as easily be gushing about how dominant the Yanks' rotation will be for the next 10 years.

Lugo was just a flat out stupid signing. Lowrie wasn't that far away even then and they could have gone with a short term commitment to a defensive stopgap yet opted to throw a ton of money at a poor defensive player even though they didn't need the extra offense.

I agree on the importance of investing more in the farm although I think a lot of this has to do with JR. As far as taking players with higher ceilings, they've done a much better job of that this year.

The main reason I want to see the Sox spend more on the draft is because it allows them to get prospects other teams want, and it seems that it's only the small market perpetually rebuilding teams that trade the best players. Since Kenny trades prospects I'd rather see him have the best farm possible, but it doesn't have much at all to do with having homegrown pre-arb players. If the difference between trading for Dan Haren and trading for Jarrod Washburn is $8 million worth of prospects, spend the $8 million and get the better player on the better contract.


I think that the Yanks have done well with drafting pitchers, as you stated, but those players that they're overrelying on are all on the field. Other than Austin Jackson, they don't have any position players that are ready to break in yet. Gardner played very well at the end of the season, but who knows how real that is? Cano is like a taller Alomar, with prodigious talents and little guts.

That being said, I'd love to have both of them. Gardner is like Brett Butler with an arm and would make this team a lot better at the top. Them being the Yankees, they'll look for someone more expensive at centerfield, although it may be a salary absorption/trade.

I won't cry if they don't get them, but it's an important piece.

I buy this, as well as using the $8 million in prospects to get premier talent. You cannot pass up a player of that caliber in Haren if the opportunity presents itself. When was the last time the Sox had prospects good enough to get a player of that ilk, though? That's the issue with having a poor system. It takes two to tango, but you gotta have something that people want. And if they REALLY want it, you'll get more.

Yes, Lugo was a dumb signing, but they were still good enough all around to get into October. Their playoff standing was never in danger this season.

jabrch
09-29-2008, 03:58 PM
That's a strong leap of faith for a brittle DH in the post-steroid, PED era.

I hope you aren't implying that the brittle DH in question had anything to do with PEDs...

EndemicSox
09-29-2008, 05:15 PM
Good to hear, the Sox could do much worse. Now get rid of the old contracts, and bring in some fresh blood. Kenny can start with Texeira!

MISoxfan
09-29-2008, 07:56 PM
That's a strong leap of faith for a brittle DH in the post-steroid, PED era.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect .260/.370/.500 next season.

palehozenychicty
09-30-2008, 08:55 AM
I hope you aren't implying that the brittle DH in question had anything to do with PEDs...


No, I'm not. I don't know anything until it's known.

jabrch
09-30-2008, 10:44 AM
No, I'm not. I don't know anything until it's known.

That's pretty crappy.

Thome is well known around the game to have nothing to do with any of this. For you to verbally link him to it, then say you don't know until it's known is...weak.

I'll be clear here. Jim Thome has never been linked to anything by anyone of any legitimacy. In this day and age, that warrant more than just "I don't know until it is known". That's enough for me.

Want to talk about Bonds - that's a different story. Giambi - different story. Want to talk about Santiago? Kent? John Jaha? Stairs? Grieve? Long? That's fine.

But associating Jim to PEDs is crap.

NLaloosh
09-30-2008, 10:50 AM
Here's to more aging, free swinging, bad fielding, low batting average, one dimensional sluggers and awful pitchers that used to play for the Royals being aquired over the years.

Here's to more playoffs and more World Series Championships.

khan
09-30-2008, 10:54 AM
That's pretty crappy.

Thome is well known around the game to have nothing to do with any of this. For you to verbally link him to it, then say you don't know until it's known is...weak.

I'll be clear here. Jim Thome has never been linked to anything by anyone of any legitimacy. In this day and age, that warrant more than just "I don't know until it is known". That's enough for me.

Look, I HOPE you're right. Not only because Thome's a likeable guy and a Hall of Famer, but he's OUR guy.

Having said that, HE didn't volunteer to talk to the investigators. ANYONE who played in MLB from the mid '90s until today absolutely played with team mates that were cheating, and against opposition that were cheating. But by NOT stepping forward, by being a part of the players' coverup, and by being too cowardly to be a whistle-blower, Jim Thome and others [whether HE HIMSELF did PEDs or not] are accomplices to other players' crimes. By not speaking out, CLEAN MLB players [such as Thome] aided and abetted other cheaters and criminals.

Because of this, Thome and others will have to face the bullets of suspicion for the rest of their lives. And I have NO problem with that.

Only Big Frank had the BALLS to stand up for what is right. And ONLY Big Frank can be considered above the fray on the PED issue.

palehozenychicty
09-30-2008, 11:30 AM
That's pretty crappy.

Thome is well known around the game to have nothing to do with any of this. For you to verbally link him to it, then say you don't know until it's known is...weak.

I'll be clear here. Jim Thome has never been linked to anything by anyone of any legitimacy. In this day and age, that warrant more than just "I don't know until it is known". That's enough for me.

Want to talk about Bonds - that's a different story. Giambi - different story. Want to talk about Santiago? Kent? John Jaha? Stairs? Grieve? Long? That's fine.

But associating Jim to PEDs is crap.


Really? You are still on it? C'mon, dude. I'm not pinning Thome as a steroid or PED user. It's just comical that you are on my sack about Thome.

I only said that it may not be a wise move to pay an aging hitter with a brittle physique in this era which is post-steroid, post-PED. That's it. I used the 'post' era simply as a mark on a timeline.
He got his option, so it's a moot point. I personally don't think he had anything to do with steroids and PEDs. Moving on......