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View Full Version : Even if we lose tonight, it's not TOTALLY over...


anewman35
09-25-2008, 07:50 AM
I'm as pessimistic as anyone, but I'm trying to look at it this way - even if we lose, it's not as if the division is totally over. We'd be a half game behind with a series to play. If we could win all 4 of our games (at home, where we're much better), we at worst tie the Twins. If we can do that and the Twins lose a game or two (and stranger things have happened), we're in. Obviously, a win tonight would make things MUCH easier, but try not to completely flip if we lose tonight (save that for after the weekend if we actually do blow it...)

SoxSpeed22
09-25-2008, 08:13 AM
It would feel like it's over, but there's a chance that the Twins could have a letdown against KC. Stranger things have happened.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-25-2008, 08:20 AM
I have to disagree - we'd be a 1/2 game down, hosting 3 at home, but the Twins get KC at home? That does not bode well.....not a DC, but KC at Minnesota with them a 1/2 game up? That puts ALL the pressure on us, moreso than it is now.

anewman35
09-25-2008, 08:23 AM
I have to disagree - we'd be a 1/2 game down, hosting 3 at home, but the Twins get KC at home? That does not bode well.....not a DC, but KC at Minnesota with them a 1/2 game up? That puts ALL the pressure on us, moreso than it is now.

I realize that. Never said it would be easy, or ideal. But still POSSIBLE. And I think we'll do better with the pressure at home than in Minnesota, since we don't suck (as much) at home.

cbotnyse
09-25-2008, 08:41 AM
The playoffs start tonight. We have to win, bottom ****ing line.

Law11
09-25-2008, 08:49 AM
The playoffs start tonight. We have to win, bottom ****ing line.

Funny how they started for Minnesota two nights ago... maybe if we showed up with the same mindset we wouldnt be holding our breath on the season tonight.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:03 AM
We still control our own destiny; a loss tonight changes that. Yeah, it wouldn't be totally over, but we'd have to depend on the Royals to help us out.

MCHSoxFan
09-25-2008, 09:09 AM
We still control our own destiny; a loss tonight changes that. Yeah, it wouldn't be totally over, but we'd have to depend on the Royals to help us out.

Exactly.

jenn2080
09-25-2008, 09:12 AM
Hopefully with all the money the Sox have from our playoffs they will buy a ****ing bullpen next year. We are done and done.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:14 AM
Hopefully with all the money the Sox have from our playoffs they will buy a ****ing bullpen next year. We are done and done.

They already tried that this year. See: Dotel, Octavio and Linebrink, Scott. What they really need to do is get more help from the minor league system. And there are guys down there that may be able to help next year (Link, Rodriguez, Poreda, Teixera).

Besides, it's been the offense that's killed us this road trip, not the bullpen. You have to score more than one or two games everyday unless your starter is going to give you 8 innings.

cws05champ
09-25-2008, 09:15 AM
We still control our own destiny; a loss tonight changes that. Yeah, it wouldn't be totally over, but we'd have to depend on the Royals to help us out.
The Royals are 16-7 in September, and won at Min earlier in the month. It looks like Meche and Greinke will start two of the games as well as Kyle Davies. I don't want to depend on the Royals of course but it could be worse...the MAriners could be playing Minnesota next.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:20 AM
The Royals are 16-7 in September, and won at Min earlier in the month. It looks like Meche and Greinke will start two of the games as well as Kyle Davies. I don't want to depend on the Royals of course but it could be worse...the MAriners could be playing Minnesota next.

We certainly didn't have many problems with Kansas City and that was in KC. Take out a couple of mistakes by Gavin on Saturday, insert an actual offense, and the Sox go to an easy sweep.

Sockinchisox
09-25-2008, 09:30 AM
The Royals are 16-7 in September, and won at Min earlier in the month. It looks like Meche and Greinke will start two of the games as well as Kyle Davies. I don't want to depend on the Royals of course but it could be worse...the MAriners could be playing Minnesota next.

Greinke has been shut down, Duckworth is going instead of him.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Hopefully with all the money the Sox have from our playoffs they will buy a ****ing bullpen next year. We are done and done.


How did buying a bullpen go for you this year?

Very bad.

And any one who suggest the homegrown route ..... Wasserman + Logan + Russel.

No ****ing thanks.


Clean house once again if the scouting department is that bad

WisSoxFan
09-25-2008, 09:34 AM
We still control our own destiny; a loss tonight changes that. Yeah, it wouldn't be totally over, but we'd have to depend on the Royals to help us out.

XXX

That's not true. Even with a loss tonight we still control our own destiny. If we win out (3 over Cleveland, 1 over Detroit and the tie-breaker game against Minnesota [assuming the Twins sweep KC] we win the division.) We don't lose control of our destiny until we have more losses than the Twins.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:35 AM
How did buying a bullpen go for you this year?

Very bad.

I wouldn't say it went 'very bad.' Without Linebrink and Dotel, where the hell would we be at? Unfortunately, Linebrink got hurt, and Dotel is hit or miss, but our bullpen would be as bad as last year's if it weren't for those two. For everyone that complains about this bullpen (and it's been terrible lately), it's not nearly as bad as the 2007 pen.

The thing is, there are not unlimited resources. We have other holes, and already have a lot of money in our bullpen. We need help to come from elsewhere.

And any one who suggest the homegrown route ..... Wasserman + Logan + Russel.

No ****ing thanks.First of all, those are not the only guys we have. Secondly, both Logan and Russell have good stuff. If they could ever learn to throw strikes consistently, they would both be mainstays in the bullpen. Logan has had his problems for a few years now, so who knows if he ever gets it into his head that he needs to throw strikes (although he is only 23). Russell, OTOH, is a rookie this year. You can't give up on him that quickly.

Thome25
09-25-2008, 09:38 AM
Either way I can't wait for the 2008 season to be over. Too many roller coaster rides, ulcers, and headaches. Unless they win the World Series, the makeup of this team needs to be drastically changed--and in a hurry.

UofCSoxFan
09-25-2008, 09:40 AM
We still control our own destiny; a loss tonight changes that. Yeah, it wouldn't be totally over, but we'd have to depend on the Royals to help us out.

We still control our own destiny even if we lose.

If we enter the final weekend down a half game, even if Minnesota wins out, if we sweep CLE and beat Detroit we are tied with the Twins for the one game playoff. We win that and we're in.

Don't get me wrong, if we lose tonight, I don't see us winning our next 5 games, but we still would control our own destiny. Of course so would the Twins at that point too.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:41 AM
XXX

That's not true. Even with a loss tonight we still control our own destiny. If we win out (3 over Cleveland, 1 over Detroit and the tie-breaker game against Minnesota [assuming the Twins sweep KC] we win the division.) We don't lose control of our destiny until we have more losses than the Twins.

Alright, technically we still do, but we have to go into the weekend facing the Indians, while the Twins get the Royals. I'm not expecting a sweep of the Tribe, which means we need the Royals to win at least one. I phrased that wrong. We will be more dependent on the Royals if we lose tonight.

esbrechtel
09-25-2008, 09:44 AM
Bullpens are the biggest crap shoot in sports....Who would have thought at the begining of 05 that Neal Cotts and Cliff Polite would be lights out? Who had heard of Bobby Jenks? Who would have thought that the mighty Singu Takatsu would not be our closer that season?

That said, Who would have thought that Neal would spend some major time in triple A in 2007 and 2008?

Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don't. Don't you remember when we had the best bullpen ever? (Joe Morgan)

Next season-
Jenks=Solid, Thornton=Solid, Linebrink=Solid if he avoids injury, Dotel=streaky at best but if you play him when he is hot you are fine, Logan=Trash had some flashes in '08, Wasserman=potential maybe, I'm hoping, Russell=need more AAA time, Richard=I think this kid could be a great Bullpen arm, Carrasco=good for 1 or 2 innings, Ramirez=maybe a full season with the doc will cure him? Macdougal=washed up


if you look at 7(Thornton)-8(Linebrink)-9(Jenks) innings we are solid we just need someone to step in to stop the bleeding (Carrasco?) and a lefty specialist (Richard?) and a righty specialist (Wasserman? I hope not but who knows)

voodoochile
09-25-2008, 09:47 AM
How did buying a bullpen go for you this year?

Very bad.

And any one who suggest the homegrown route ..... Wasserman + Logan + Russel.

No ****ing thanks.


Clean house once again if the scouting department is that bad

For the most part Dotel and Linebrink have been fine when healthy and not over used. Sure they've had their bad moments, but that's just the nature of the beast. No team has 3-4 shutdown, lightsout guys to call on. Every bullpen has wins and losses and blown saves.

Personally, I'm fine going in to next year with Thornton, Carrasco, Dotel, Linebrink and Jenks + two from the minors (Richard (if he isn't starting) and Russell, for example).

Of all the problems on this team, while it hasn't been perfect, the bullpen has been down the list of problem areas. Yeah, things were rough in August when Linebrink was out and everyone else got over used, but the rest of the season, it's been just fine - at least the major players have been. Guys like Ramirez and Wasserman are fillins to protect everyone else's arms and throw the mop up innings. Yeah, they wanted more from Ramirez, but live and learn.

voodoochile
09-25-2008, 09:49 AM
XXX

That's not true. Even with a loss tonight we still control our own destiny. If we win out (3 over Cleveland, 1 over Detroit and the tie-breaker game against Minnesota [assuming the Twins sweep KC] we win the division.) We don't lose control of our destiny until we have more losses than the Twins.

Correct and all the games would be at home...

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 09:50 AM
I wouldn't say it went 'very bad.' Without Linebrink and Dotel, where the hell would we be at? Unfortunately, Linebrink got hurt, and Dotel is hit or miss, but our bullpen would be as bad as last year's if it weren't for those two. For everyone that complains about this bullpen (and it's been terrible lately), it's not nearly as bad as the 2007 pen.

The thing is, there are not unlimited resources. We have other holes, and already have a lot of money in our bullpen. We need help to come from elsewhere.

First of all, those are not the only guys we have. Secondly, both Logan and Russell have good stuff. If they could ever learn to throw strikes consistently, they would both be mainstays in the bullpen. Logan has had his problems for a few years now, so who knows if he ever gets it into his head that he needs to throw strikes (although he is only 23). Russell, OTOH, is a rookie this year. You can't give up on him that quickly.


Bullpens are hit or miss ever year. This is why buying one is never a good choice. Sox were backed into a bad corner with pitiful scouting and development in the farm that they had to go buy one this year to be competitive.

Development is my way to go, but I don't see anyone in that farm from the names mentioned that I would give 2 cents to. This is where Don Cooper loses plenty of points from me, the fact that he has pretty much done nothing with our own home grown arms. Yes he does greatness with other people's high draft picks scraps, but how about making somehting out of the people already in your system?

I laugh when people jump all over Walker for crappy offense, but yet no one says anything about Coop and 3 straight season of bullpen implosions.

ChiSoxFan81
09-25-2008, 09:51 AM
Tonight is do or die. All we really needed to do in this series was win one game to be comfortable. Now, we only have one game left. If we lose tonight, we have to match the Twins over the weekend, win the makeup game, and then win a one game playoff. Even if we somehow survived all of that, our playoffs chances would be greatly diminished. TODAY is the day that will determine our fate. The Twins would feel unstoppable if they got the sweep.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 09:57 AM
For the most part Dotel and Linebrink have been fine when healthy and not over used. Sure they've had their bad moments, but that's just the nature of the beast. No team has 3-4 shutdown, lightsout guys to call on. Every bullpen has wins and losses and blown saves.

Personally, I'm fine going in to next year with Thornton, Carrasco, Dotel, Linebrink and Jenks + two from the minors (Richard (if he isn't starting) and Russell, for example).

Of all the problems on this team, while it hasn't been perfect, the bullpen has been down the list of problem areas. Yeah, things were rough in August when Linebrink was out and everyone else got over used, but the rest of the season, it's been just fine - at least the major players have been. Guys like Ramirez and Wasserman are fillins to protect everyone else's arms and throw the mop up innings. Yeah, they wanted more from Ramirez, but live and learn.

No question those guys had their high moments this year for us, but it is the long term investment that gets a little bit scarry. Linebrink IMO will end up getting some sort shoulder surgery this year, just a feeling I have based on what has happened to him here down the stretch. Dotel might be getting brain surgery too. Make no mistake, the Sox are not the Yankees here where they can just fill gaps with 4 yr $15 million deals for relief pitchers. The Linebrink deal could end up handcuffing this team out of the pen for the next few years, let's just hope that's not the case.

And in no way you can blame Kenny, there was nothing within the farm that could have helped this team turn that ****ty bullpen from 2007 around. He had to make these moves.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:58 AM
Bullpens are hit or miss ever year. This is why buying one is never a good choice. Sox were backed into a bad corner with pitiful scouting and development in the farm that they had to go buy one this year to be competitive.

I don't understand what you're bitching about. The Sox buying a bullpen actually helped.

Development is my way to go, but I don't see anyone in that farm from the names mentioned that I would give 2 cents to. This is where Don Cooper loses plenty of points from me, the fact that he has pretty much done nothing with our own home grown arms. Yes he does greatness with other people's high draft picks scraps, but how about making somehting out of the people already in your system?You can only do so much with the talent that's given to you. I feel we have talent in Logan, but he just can't get his head screwed on straight. Is that on the pitching coach? Coop can help with mechanics and pound his philosophies into your head, but you have to mature mentally on your own.

I laugh when people jump all over Walker for crappy offense, but yet no one says anything about Coop and 3 straight season of bullpen implosions.We've already been through this before. Whenever Walker actually helps a hitter go from terrible to good, come talk to me. Walker doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because he hasn't done jack.

Jenks4Prez
09-25-2008, 10:25 AM
Correction for the original poster...WHEN we lose tonight.

comet2k
09-25-2008, 10:30 AM
Tonight is do or die. All we really needed to do in this series was win one game to be comfortable. Now, we only have one game left. If we lose tonight, we have to match the Twins over the weekend, win the makeup game, and then win a one game playoff. Even if we somehow survived all of that, our playoffs chances would be greatly diminished. TODAY is the day that will determine our fate. The Twins would feel unstoppable if they got the sweep.

Agree. Losing tonight would leave no room for error, put the Sox on thin ice and leave the Twins on solid ground.

The Sox are 10-5 against the Indians, but the Tribe has been playing better ball lately. Ditto for the Royals, who are 11-4 vs. the Twins. I don't like our chances of taking all three from the Indians and then winning two more to make the playoffs.

Tonight's the night to improve the odds.

Jim Shorts
09-25-2008, 10:36 AM
The top of the order would have to man up and start hitting.

I haven't seen signs of that since September came around.

spiffie
09-25-2008, 10:40 AM
Correction for the original poster...WHEN we lose tonight.
You're still here? The season ended yesterday. Come back next April when baseball starts up again. Or at least quit spreading whiny negative **** all over threads.

SteveFakeBlood
09-25-2008, 01:02 PM
I appreciate any and all positive threads at this point. It's hard for the season to be over when we're in first. If we lose tonight, we'll still only be done when we're mathematically eliminated. That's it. Until then, let's just cram the negativity. I get enough of that pessimism from my Dad. Feel free to tell me "I told you so" if we don't win the division.

Another thing, our "awful" bullpen was actually one of the biggest reasons we were so successful in the first half- Jenks, Linebrink and Thornton were lights out for much of the year.

~Steve

kitekrazy
09-25-2008, 02:25 PM
The Royals are 16-7 in September, and won at Min earlier in the month. It looks like Meche and Greinke will start two of the games as well as Kyle Davies. I don't want to depend on the Royals of course but it could be worse...the MAriners could be playing Minnesota next.

Too bad we didn't end the season with 4 game series at Detroit.

Lundind1
09-25-2008, 02:34 PM
Too bad we didn't end the season with 4 game series at Detroit.

We might find a way to blow that if it were the case, who knows.

I need to completely out before I wave the white flag, which btw....should be a bad word phrase on here.

Hosey22
09-25-2008, 02:49 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose tonight that means we lose the season series to the Twins. Which would mean even if we somehow manage to tie for the division, the tie-breaker would be unnecessary because the Twins hold the lead for the season series. In essence we would need to hope for a sweep of the Indians who have Cliff Lee going on Sunday and for the Royals to take at least one. Then go on and win the make-up game on Monday. Possible, but a very tall order. Lets just win the **** game tonight.

CHISOXFAN13
09-25-2008, 02:50 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose tonight that means we lose the season series to the Twins. Which would mean even if we somehow manage to tie for the division, the tie-breaker would be unnecessary because the Twins hold the lead for the season series. In essence we would need to hope for a sweep of the Indians who have Cliff Lee going on Sunday and for the Royals to take at least one. Then go on and win the make-up game on Monday. Possible, but a very tall order. Lets just win the **** game tonight.

I don't know why this rule is consistently botched on this site.

There is no tiebreaker unless both teams are in the playoffs. This isn't the NFL.

If there is a tie, we play. Period. End of story.

bluestar
09-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Just to try to keep things in perspective:

In 2006, the Royals played the Tigers in KC in late September and were swept. Then the Royals went on the road for their final six games. The Twins beat them twice and lost once. The Royals moved on to Detroit and won the first two games of the series. The Twins came into Chicago and lost the first two games. The Tigers and Twins went into their respective last games of the season tied. The Royals beat the Tigers to complete the improbable sweep of the series, while the Twins beat the Sox 5-1 to win the division.

That Royals team was terrible, yet they swept a team that went on to win the pennant.

Anything can happen. I'll quit hoping only if and when the Sox are eliminated.

hi im skot
09-25-2008, 05:41 PM
Correction for the original poster...WHEN we lose tonight.

That's the attitude.

UofCSoxFan
09-25-2008, 07:39 PM
Just to try to keep things in perspective:

In 2006, the Royals played the Tigers in KC in late September and were swept. Then the Royals went on the road for their final six games. The Twins beat them twice and lost once. The Royals moved on to Detroit and won the first two games of the series. The Twins came into Chicago and lost the first two games. The Tigers and Twins went into their respective last games of the season tied. The Royals beat the Tigers to complete the improbable sweep of the series, while the Twins beat the Sox 5-1 to win the division.

That Royals team was terrible, yet they swept a team that went on to win the pennant.

Anything can happen. I'll quit hoping only if and when the Sox are eliminated.

Great post. I've been preaching on deaf ears on this the past two days. Good to see not all Sox fans have gone nuts.

Another thing to keep in mind, even if the Sox lose tonight, they STILL control there own destiny. Granted they'd have tow win 5 in a row if the Twins swept the Royals, but these "the season hinges on today" posts are crap. Granted a win today makes things a lot easier, all is not lost.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2008, 11:39 PM
If we lose tonight, for all practical purposes the season is over. This team will roll over and die, just like it did in this series. We may have already lost, I'm not watching the game (I watched the last two and a fine lot that did).

SteveFakeBlood
09-25-2008, 11:52 PM
Just to try to keep things in perspective:

Anything can happen. I'll quit hoping only if and when the Sox are eliminated.

Yeah, unfortunately that attitude doesn't get you far around here. The actual results are bad enough, but the "I told you so"'s just pour salt into the wound. On the plus side, I don't have to deal with Cubs fans on a daily basis anymore. So the smugness won't be quite as unbearable. This ****ing sucks. Go Sox, Go Royals- that's all we've got.

~Steve

hi im skot
09-25-2008, 11:52 PM
It's over.

anewman35
09-27-2008, 12:03 AM
See, despite what some here seemed to think, Minnesota CAN lose to KC. Of course, we can't seem to beat Cleveland, which is an issue, but I don't think it's entirely out of the question for them to lose another one of the next two games.

kitekrazy
09-27-2008, 12:17 AM
If the Sox lose game 2, Cleveland sweeps. They won't touch Lee.

FielderJones
09-27-2008, 12:20 AM
If the Sox lose game 2, Cleveland sweeps. They won't touch Lee.

Will they touch his replacement if his stiff neck doesn't get better? Or, maybe he'll feel up to pitching and throw it out of whack fielding a grounder between the mound and third. Lee might not be 100%. If he's not, why would Cleveland put him out there in a meaningless game for them?

Chisox353014
09-27-2008, 12:20 AM
It's now a 2 game season. Sunday's games are guaranteed to be meaningful. We still control our own fate.
Another chance to take control blown tonight, however. :gah:

We should really think about winning, starting immediately. Don't know how much more help KC is going to give us. Davies can't pitch every game.

EuroSox35
09-27-2008, 12:24 AM
Still far from over. People were wrong in thinking that we had to 'win out' starting tonight. Now that's probably the case starting Sat, but who knows, KC didn't pull any punches tonight, it's true, you never know...