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View Full Version : IF the Sox don't make it, will there be consequences?


captain54
09-25-2008, 02:20 AM
Just for the sake of discussion, let's say the Sox end up blowing it and not making the postseason.

Do you think there will be consequences for certain members of the organization?? Players? Managers? Coaches?

It's about the only positive I can think of that can come out of the disaster of the Sox not making the playoffs, the fact that some glaring holes and major weaknesses are addressed.

a couple of things come to mind

1)the Sox total meltdown offensively the last week of the season can't reflect well on Greg Walker, whether it's his fault or not
2)Kenny Williams decision to put together the same slow, station to station home run or nothing offense that was prevalent in the first half of this decade, and inability since 2006 to address the bullpen ..
3)Ozzie not making the playoffs 3 years in a row. Keep in mind, Jerry Manuel's Sox made the playoffs in 2000, but failed three years in a row after that until he was finally canned...

It's Dankerific
09-25-2008, 02:29 AM
I think you'll see the same **** next year with a brand new veneer.

Problems will remain Problems. Bright spots will turn up and they will battle it out, in the end there can be only one.

-Just observing and recording, unable to interfere....

Jurr
09-25-2008, 05:59 AM
This team needs an enema, and we've been screaming it for a while.

I'm hoping that a meltdown here leads to a 2004-esque house cleaning. I wouldn't mind another "down" year if it means going a little younger while getting one dimensional losers (yes, Jim Thome, you're going to the Hall of Fame, but teams do better when you leave) off of this roster.

Javy? Gone. Konerko? See ya. Contreras? It's been real. Thome? Learn to go opposite field. Pierzynski? We'll take a guy that can stop a team from running all over the field. Crede? Later.

Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.

DumpJerry
09-25-2008, 06:50 AM
If they don't play next week, it will force them to shore up the weak links. They won't be able to say that despite perceived weaknesses, they still made the playoffs.

A major overhaul is not needed, just some tweaking here and there.

PorkChopExpress
09-25-2008, 06:54 AM
I would think that after three years of not making the postseason, one of which was the worst in recent memory, these guys will have shown that they do not have what it takes and the team will be "blown up" so to speak.

That being said, I hope we do not get to see if we are right or wrong here.

SoxSpeed22
09-25-2008, 07:03 AM
3,900 for me. KW is always looking to reload the team. If he can get some more speed, that would work out for us. What is killing us is when we cannot score any other way.
There is also a hole at third base with the immanent departure of Joe Crede (:whiner:). OC could also leave looking to get paid. Alexei can convert to shortstop, but there could be a problem at second base depending on Getz. Also, get a true centerfielder. That's been a problem since Rowand left, not that I want him back.
The players I want on the Sox next year are: Chone Figgins (free agent), Orlando Hudson (FA) and Fernando Perez (trade). These three guys can add a lot more speed to our lineup and the power is still there from the other spots. They can still hit 200+ home runs with a retooled lineup.
Kenny still has to figure out what to do with Konerko, Thome, Swisher and Jr. Thome has the highest value at this point for AL teams.

aryzner
09-25-2008, 07:20 AM
Speed is all I ask for next year, whether they make the playoffs this year or not. I think most if not all of us want some speed on the bases. I am with the "I want Chone Figgins" crowd on WSI.

Cuck the Fubs
09-25-2008, 07:23 AM
:scratch:

No Joe Crede

No TCQ

No Jose

Yet they are still in first by 1/2 game with 4 to go.

This team needs minor tweakage not a complete overhaul.

Come on guys :rolleyes:

esbrechtel
09-25-2008, 07:38 AM
I do not know how you can bash Kenny Williams...That said I agree we need some speed however we have some (Owens, Wise, Anderson, etc) however they do not play like speed players. Ever since Wise hit the slam in Detriot he has been looking for the long ball in almost every situation. That turns in to a Ray-Durhamesque fly out to the track or a slow roller to the pitcher. If I see that guy fake bunt one more time I am going to :puking:

Eddo144
09-25-2008, 08:05 AM
Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.
Totally. I bet Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps would tie for AL Rookie of the Year, MVP, and Cy Young!

alohafri
09-25-2008, 08:22 AM
:scratch:

No Joe Crede

No TCQ

No Jose

Yet they are still in first by 1/2 game with 4 to go.

This team needs minor tweakage not a complete overhaul.

Come on guys :rolleyes:

Smoke and mirrors. We are in first in the worst division (well, second worst). I want a team that can compete with those other division leaders. I don't have the guts to look up our record against teams above .500, but it can't be that great. Tweakage? Maybe. "Minor" tweakage? No.

asindc
09-25-2008, 08:40 AM
Just for the sake of discussion, let's say the Sox end up blowing it and not making the postseason.

Do you think there will be consequences for certain members of the organization?? Players? Managers? Coaches?

It's about the only positive I can think of that can come out of the disaster of the Sox not making the playoffs, the fact that some glaring holes and major weaknesses are addressed.

a couple of things come to mind

Well, this is how I see it:

1)the Sox total meltdown offensively the last week of the season can't reflect well on Greg Walker, whether it's his fault or not

Though I'm not one to bash Walker, I tend to agree that a change in hitting approach is needed. If that requires a new hitting coach, so be it.


2)Kenny Williams decision to put together the same slow, station to station home run or nothing offense that was prevalent in the first half of this decade, and inability since 2006 to address the bullpen ..

I don't think KW "decided" to put a station-to-station team on the field. He has said repeatedly during the last several months that this team needs more offensive balance, more speed, etc. He tried to getting more speed into the lineup by going after Torii Hunter (I know, I know, not a prototypical leadoff guy, but who else was out there?), but we know what happened there. Bottom line, he recognizes it and has been trying to do something about it.

As for as bullpen, he admittedly overspent (not because his boss is Steinbrenner, but because he had to) for Linebrink and Dotel, but the bullpen is much, much better than last year's. Ask Mets fans if they would have liked Minaya to sign those two to similar contracts instead of the Sox.

3)Ozzie not making the playoffs 3 years in a row. Keep in mind, Jerry Manuel's Sox made the playoffs in 2000, but failed three years in a row after that until he was finally canned...

Has Ozzie managed any differently in 2006, 2007, and this year than he did in 2005? If he has suddenly gotten worse at his job, then the Sox need to make a change, but I don't see how his performance has changed. In 2005, Uribe could lay down a suicide squeeze with the best of them. This year,... In 2005, AJ, Dye, PK, and Crede all could effectively hit with RISP and 2-outs. This year,... You get the idea.

I get the impression that if the Sox had won last night, we would not be seeing half the gloom-and-doom threads are seeing/will see today. And no, this is not a rose-colored view of the situation. Going forth, there are glaring holes to be filled. My point is that KW and Ozzie know that. For now, though, let's buck up folks!

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 08:40 AM
:scratch:

No Joe Crede

No TCQ

No Jose

Yet they are still in first by 1/2 game with 4 to go.

This team needs minor tweakage not a complete overhaul.

Come on guys :rolleyes:

Wow, they really have the kool aide flowing up in Norridge.

Welcom to Sox Country.

Despite those injuries, this team was flawed from day 1. We are struggling to beat out a "rebuilding" Twins team not the ****ing '27 Yankees. It's a bad division. This team cannot win on the road because it is built to hit for the fences at US Cellular Field.

When 99% of the Sox fans on this board and everywhere use the arguement to "just get in and anything can happen" when talking about getting to the play-offs and bringing up the '06 Cardinals, that should be enough to tell you that Sox fans admit that this team is not that good. We are banking on luck to get anywhere rather than trying to be good. I rather be good than lucky. This team needs major changes to get "great/good" status from me.

asindc
09-25-2008, 08:48 AM
Wow, they really have the kool aide flowing up in Norridge.

Welcom to Sox Country.

Despite those injuries, this team was flawed from day 1. We are struggling to beat out a "rebuilding" Twins team not the ****ing '27 Yankees. It's a bad division. This team cannot win on the road because it is built to hit for the fences at US Cellular Field.

When 99% of the Sox fans on this board and everywhere use the arguement to "just get in and anything can happen" when talking about getting to the play-offs and bringing up the '06 Cardinals, that should be enough to tell you that Sox fans admit that this team is not that good. We are banking on luck to get anywhere rather than trying to be good. I rather be good than lucky. This team needs major changes to get "great/good" status from me.

I don't think anyone here, or anywhere else in Sox Country, disagrees with the bolded part. As you can see in my previous post, though, I disagree that management does not recognize the same thing.

guillen4life13
09-25-2008, 08:49 AM
Wow, they really have the kool aide flowing up in Norridge.

Welcom to Sox Country.

Despite those injuries, this team was flawed from day 1. We are struggling to beat out a "rebuilding" Twins team not the ****ing '27 Yankees. It's a bad division. This team cannot win on the road because it is built to hit for the fences at US Cellular Field.

When 99% of the Sox fans on this board and everywhere use the arguement to "just get in and anything can happen" when talking about getting to the play-offs and bringing up the '06 Cardinals, that should be enough to tell you that Sox fans admit that this team is not that good. We are banking on luck to get anywhere rather than trying to be good. I rather be good than lucky. This team needs major changes to get "great/good" status from me.

Hit the nail on the head!

gregoriop
09-25-2008, 08:49 AM
Come on guys :rolleyes:


Are you watching the same team I am? You know, the one that is just getting plain old out-hustled? The one that can't move runners over or only occasionally is able to take the extra base?

Hokiesox
09-25-2008, 08:50 AM
I don't see any way Walker or Ozzie get fired. Fans have been asking about Walker's status for a few seasons, and he's not gone yet. So I don't see him leaving now. I wish they would can him, but I'm not optimistic. As for Ozzie, JR would never fire him. Too much loyalty there.

Whether they make it to October or not, I don't want to see Thome, Konerko, or Pierzynski here next year. I'm sick of slow station-to-station ball. The team hasn't been able to consistently manufacture runs since the first half of 2006 and this has GOT to change. I'm not going to enjoy these last 4 or 5 games. I don't wish my beloved Sox any ill, but this team doesn't excite me. They have their moments, but the up and down attitudes kill me.

soxnut67
09-25-2008, 08:53 AM
This team needs an enema, and we've been screaming it for a while.

I'm hoping that a meltdown here leads to a 2004-esque house cleaning. I wouldn't mind another "down" year if it means going a little younger while getting one dimensional losers (yes, Jim Thome, you're going to the Hall of Fame, but teams do better when you leave) off of this roster.

Javy? Gone. Konerko? See ya. Contreras? It's been real. Thome? Learn to go opposite field. Pierzynski? We'll take a guy that can stop a team from running all over the field. Crede? Later.

Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.


I'm with you on alot of that, but I would mind another "down" year. I am so sick and tired of the home run mentality on this club. But I think they can tweak it and be successful.

Regardless of how the rest of the season pans out, I am for changing the way this team is put together. They are no fun to watch even when they win. This has got to be the worst first-place White Sox team that I have ever seen.

esbrechtel
09-25-2008, 09:01 AM
Whether they make it to October or not, I don't want to see Thome, Konerko, or Pierzynski here next year.

I have to disagree with part of this. AJ handles the pitching staff very well shipping him off would be stupid. I understand you want fast guys but I'm sorry to say it that there are certain positions you want power from (I am not saying that we NEED to have Thome and Konerko) 1st base you tell me where you find a team in the AL with a FAST 1st baseman? Do you want our DH to be a lead off man? Your speed needs to come from your SS, 2nd Baseman and your CF and possibly a LF.

Ideally your line up should look something like this

CF-(Speed)
2b/SS-(Speed situational hitting)
1b-(Power)
DH-(Power)
RF-(Power)
LF-(Speed situational hitting)
C-(situational hitting)
3b-(Power/situational hitting)
SS/2b-(Speed)

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 09:13 AM
The biggest consequence out of all this will be a bit more suffering at the gate IMO. Yes people are backed into season ticket renewals because of thier playoff ticket deposit, but season tickets will only account for about 20K fans per game (if that). Many fans, including my neighbor who has been a full season ticket holder for 12 years now, says he will opt to go with a cheaper partial plan to soak up that deposit. Economic times are getting very tough he says.


The Sox will have to do one hell of a job in the offseason to retain a good amount of ther full season commitments instead of losing them to the partial route.

oeo
09-25-2008, 09:15 AM
I do not know how you can bash Kenny Williams...That said I agree we need some speed however we have some (Owens, Wise, Anderson, etc) however they do not play like speed players. Ever since Wise hit the slam in Detriot he has been looking for the long ball in almost every situation. That turns in to a Ray-Durhamesque fly out to the track or a slow roller to the pitcher. If I see that guy fake bunt one more time I am going to :puking:

And so goes a Walker coached offense. Honestly, I wish the Sox would just give the Twins a dose of their own medicine tonight. Wise, Cabrera, Uribe, Alexei (even Dye since he can't buy a hit)...just pound the ball into the ground and let the dome do the rest.

NLaloosh
09-25-2008, 09:24 AM
I believe the same changes will be made either way.

Believe it or not both KW and Ozzie can see that this is a very slow team. I'm certain that they will try to add speed to atleast 2 positions next year - maybe more.

Just by replacing the 2 worst base runners that I can recall in a Sox uniform (Crede and Konerko) would be a big help.

But, if they could add 2 more players in the mold of Roberts, Figgins, Hudson etc. they should have adequate balance. They don't need a huge overhaul.

I don't believe there will be much at all in the way of management or coaching changes.

BTW, Jim Thome is one of the best baserunners on this team. That says a lot about Thome and the team.

Noneck
09-25-2008, 09:26 AM
I've been reading on this board for awhile about what is wanted and needed for next year. The fact is even if the Sox wanted to change the type of team they have, they don't have the expendable resources (expendable players) to make these changes. We also know when it comes to quality FA's, the Sox will not obtain them because they will be perceived as being overpriced. This being said unless moves like the ones that obtained Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd are made, nothing will change.

jabrch
09-25-2008, 09:30 AM
Win or lose by a game or two or three - will have no impact. Whatever KW and OG were going to do, they will do anyhow. One or two or three games difference means very little when it comes to strategic planning.

There may be significant tactical differences (lots of $ we would lose from not making the post season) but that is different than the strategic plans they have.

CashMan
09-25-2008, 09:32 AM
Well, this is how I see it:


I don't think KW "decided" to put a station-to-station team on the field. He has said repeatedly during the last several months that this team needs more offensive balance, more speed, etc. He tried to getting more speed into the lineup by going after Torii Hunter (I know, I know, not a prototypical leadoff guy, but who else was out there?), but we know what happened there. Bottom line, he recognizes it and has been trying to do something about it.

As for as bullpen, he admittedly overspent (not because his boss is Steinbrenner, but because he had to) for Linebrink and Dotel, but the bullpen is much, much better than last year's. Ask Mets fans if they would have liked Minaya to sign those two to similar contracts instead of the Sox.



Has Ozzie managed any differently in 2006, 2007, and this year than he did in 2005? If he has suddenly gotten worse at his job, then the Sox need to make a change, but I don't see how his performance has changed. In 2005, Uribe could lay down a suicide squeeze with the best of them. This year,... In 2005, AJ, Dye, PK, and Crede all could effectively hit with RISP and 2-outs. This year,... You get the idea.



Station to station team:
AJ- is slow but there isn't a better option
Konerko- slow, and has a few more years left
Thome- slow and we have 1 more year left
Dye- slow but makes up for it offensively
Griff- slow and I am stiff baffled why they acquired him, other than the fact Kenny has a man-crush on him

I would say Kenny has put a station to station team together.

Bullpen overspent:
Half right
Linebrink- I think is a good set-up man
Dotel- wondered what Kenny saw in him and why he decided to give him a 2 year deal.

Ozzie: I don't think his managing has changed, he is still horrible at managing a bullpen. I guess when you get a good leadoff hitter, things become easier. This goes back to Kenny for putting together this team. I am stiff wondering why he acquired Swisher, I do enjoy him hitting 220 though.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 09:42 AM
This team needs an enema, and we've been screaming it for a while.

I'm hoping that a meltdown here leads to a 2004-esque house cleaning. I wouldn't mind another "down" year if it means going a little younger while getting one dimensional losers (yes, Jim Thome, you're going to the Hall of Fame, but teams do better when you leave) off of this roster.

Javy? Gone. Konerko? See ya. Contreras? It's been real. Thome? Learn to go opposite field. Pierzynski? We'll take a guy that can stop a team from running all over the field. Crede? Later.

Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.
Yeah! Like the 2003 Indians! They had a great record of 68-94 after Jim left. I bet they were praising the heavens since they didn't have to put up with Jim's performance from 2002 (.304/.445/.677).

Or the 2006 Phillies, who went 85-77 (mainly because Ryan Howard put up a Jim Thome-esque line of .313/.425/.659).

Getting rid of Javy would be idiotic; let me know where you can find someone at his skill level who can throw over 200 innings with ease. He's an incredibly valuable pitcher in this day and age. Trading Konerko at his lowest value would be foolish. Contreras is gone already due to injury.

None of your suggestions are remotely feasible.

asindc
09-25-2008, 09:43 AM
Station to station team:
AJ- is slow but there isn't a better option
Konerko- slow, and has a few more years left
Thome- slow and we have 1 more year left
Dye- slow but makes up for it offensively
Griff- slow and I am stiff baffled why they acquired him, other than the fact Kenny has a man-crush on him

I would say Kenny has put a station to station team together.

Bullpen overspent:
Half right
Linebrink- I think is a good set-up man
Dotel- wondered what Kenny saw in him and why he decided to give him a 2 year deal.

Ozzie: I don't think his managing has changed, he is still horrible at managing a bullpen. I guess when you get a good leadoff hitter, things become easier. This goes back to Kenny for putting together this team. I am stiff wondering why he acquired Swisher, I do enjoy him hitting 220 though.

1) I didn't say he did not put a station-to-station team together, I said that from all indications, that wasn't his first preference. Some commenters are implying that this is what he planned from the beginning.

2) I agree that a 2-year deal was a stretch, but as I noted and has been noted many, many times in various threads this year, KW admitted he was overspending for both. I took that to mean he didn't like it anymore than you and I do, but the alternative was to not sign them and go with what we had last year. Nope, not for me, and obviously not for KW, either.

3) I'm wondering along with you, although I do believe Swish will pay off in the long run. Not this year, though.

By the way, you might want to edit that last bolded statement.:smile:

Parrothead
09-25-2008, 09:43 AM
I will save money on playoff tickets !

PatK
09-25-2008, 09:51 AM
Lots of harshness directed towards AJ.

You can't blame him for guys running considerig the fact that most of the Sox pitchers do a terrible job of holding the runners.

And it's not like there are any good options out there.

Personally, I'd like to see this team get a bonafide center fielder and leadoff hitter. I don't think this team is as far off as most people seem to.

UofCSoxFan
09-25-2008, 10:00 AM
If they don't play next week, it will force them to shore up the weak links. They won't be able to say that despite perceived weaknesses, they still made the playoffs.

A major overhaul is not needed, just some tweaking here and there.

Nor is a major overhaul even possible. People make it sound like you could replace Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, 2/3 of the bullpen, Cabrerra, and find a CF all in one offseason with no minor league pipeline to speak of.

palehozenychicty
09-25-2008, 10:08 AM
Nor is a major overhaul even possible. People make it sound like you could replace Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, 2/3 of the bullpen, Cabrerra, and find a CF all in one offseason with no minor league pipeline to speak of.


This is the key phrase in your statement, that the Sox have done such an abominable job of developing a farm system we can't do much other than get a guy for .30 on the dollar and let contracts run their course. It's tough to make a great overhaul in philosophy without a foundation. Once that improves, it'll be easier to get improved personnel.

PhillipsBubba
09-25-2008, 10:09 AM
Regardless of what happens, this team will look quite different next year. Ken Williams knows all too well that they lack speed, fundamental skills and the plate discipline needed to win on a regular basis.

The Sox will be younger and not so highly paid next year. So if you have any heroes on this team, take one long last look because many of them will be gone...and rightly so!

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 10:11 AM
Regardless of what happens, this team will look quite different next year. Ken Williams knows all too well that they lack speed, fundamental skills and the plate discipline needed to win on a regular basis.

The Sox will be younger and not so highly paid next year. So if you have any heroes on this team, take one long last look because many of them will be gone...and rightly so!
Where will they be going? There simply isn't a market for a lot of our guys.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 10:12 AM
This is the key phrase in your statement, that the Sox have done such an abominable job of developing a farm system we can't do much other than get a guy for .30 on the dollar and let contracts run their course. It's tough to make a great overhaul in philosophy without a foundation. Once that improves, it'll be easier to get improved personnel.
We took a big step in the right direction this season. I wasn't a big fan of the Brent Morel pick, but otherwise it may have been our best draft in years.

areilly
09-25-2008, 10:16 AM
Nor is a major overhaul even possible. People make it sound like you could replace Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, 2/3 of the bullpen, Cabrerra, and find a CF all in one offseason with no minor league pipeline to speak of.

Agreed. I'd be shocked if there's anything less than 75% of the 9/30/08 roster on the 4/1/09 roster.

palehozenychicty
09-25-2008, 10:18 AM
We took a big step in the right direction this season. I wasn't a big fan of the Brent Morel pick, but otherwise it may have been our best draft in years.


Exactly. If there's a team we should emulate in terms of scouting and managing the FA/trade market, it's the Angels. They do both in a large metropolitan area, so there's no reason that we can't do the same in time.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 10:20 AM
Exactly. If there's a team we should emulate in terms of scouting and managing the FA/trade market, it's the Angels. They do both in a large metropolitan area, so there's no reason that we can't do the same in time.
I just hope we don't emulate their affinity for poor contracts. Hunter may look good now, but wait a few years. And Matthews...what can you say about that?

I think their system is a tad overhyped, but they have an alright philosophy.

Tragg
09-25-2008, 10:21 AM
Just for the sake of discussion, let's say the Sox end up blowing it and not making the postseason.

Do you think there will be consequences for certain members of the organization?? Players? Managers? Coaches?
Certainly should be. major consequences.

palehozenychicty
09-25-2008, 10:28 AM
I just hope we don't emulate their affinity for poor contracts. Hunter may look good now, but wait a few years. And Matthews...what can you say about that?

I think their system is a tad overhyped, but they have an alright philosophy.

That's going to happen though when you dip into free agency. Their scouting and development allows them to take those risks on a Hunter or Matthews.

I think for position players, it hasn't bloomed. We've been hearing for years about Brandon Wood and Kendry Morales, but these guys have barely played or underperformed. Their pitching (Saunders, Lackey, E. Santana, Adenhart) has been much better.

It is just a model, though, for how it can be done.

AnkleSox
09-25-2008, 10:33 AM
Getting rid of Javy would be idiotic; let me know where you can find someone at his skill level who can throw over 200 innings with ease. He's an incredibly valuable pitcher in this day and age.

The problem is that unless the Sox are up by 10 games or completely out of it, Javy will be throwing complete meatballs to scrub hitters who will continue to pound him. Inning eaters are nice, but I'd much rather have a Harden type who can actually dominate down the stretch, not when fighting it out with the Royals for fourth place.

Chilli Palmer
09-25-2008, 10:34 AM
Win or lose by a game or two or three - will have no impact. Whatever KW and OG were going to do, they will do anyhow. One or two or three games difference means very little when it comes to strategic planning.

There may be significant tactical differences (lots of $ we would lose from not making the post season) but that is different than the strategic plans they have.

And you know this? How? Just curious?

kitekrazy
09-25-2008, 10:52 AM
This team needs an enema, and we've been screaming it for a while.

I'm hoping that a meltdown here leads to a 2004-esque house cleaning. I wouldn't mind another "down" year if it means going a little younger while getting one dimensional losers (yes, Jim Thome, you're going to the Hall of Fame, but teams do better when you leave) off of this roster.

Javy? Gone. Konerko? See ya. Contreras? It's been real. Thome? Learn to go opposite field. Pierzynski? We'll take a guy that can stop a team from running all over the field. Crede? Later.

Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.

That is interesting about Thome. Our traditional 3rd, 4th hitters were batting around .250. I would start there.

This team has athletes but they aren't baseball players. (Josh Fields) I get the impression the lack of fundamentals runs deep in this organization. We need to start there.

I would get rid of Walker just to make a change.

I would keep Javy since he would make a decent 4th or 5th starter.

Keep AJ. Sure they steal on him but no one on this staff has the fundamentals like Buerhle. Anyone can run on the Sox pitchers.

tstrike2000
09-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Yes. Walker will hopefully be gone along with probably a couple of the basepath sloths we have.

9in'59
09-25-2008, 10:55 AM
This team needs an enema, and we've been screaming it for a while.

I'm hoping that a meltdown here leads to a 2004-esque house cleaning. I wouldn't mind another "down" year if it means going a little younger while getting one dimensional losers (yes, Jim Thome, you're going to the Hall of Fame, but teams do better when you leave) off of this roster.

Javy? Gone. Konerko? See ya. Contreras? It's been real. Thome? Learn to go opposite field. Pierzynski? We'll take a guy that can stop a team from running all over the field. Crede? Later.

Get some freakin' athletes on this team. Get some players that aren't content. That's how the 05 team worked so well. Everybody had something to prove.

I couldn't have said it better myself! We not only need athletes, but athletes with the ability to think. Mental lapses have killed us all season. After all, baseball is THE thinking man's game!

Lip Man 1
09-25-2008, 11:07 AM
If the worst were to happen directly in front of Kenny I think you'll see even more of an effort to do what Ozzie has been asking for repeatedly in the off season the past few years, as reported by the newspapers, more balance to the offense...an ability to score runs in some other way than hitting a home run.

Lip

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 11:09 AM
Realistically, not much is likely to change next year. AJ, though slow, is actually a good baserunner and quite adept at managing a pitching staff. Thome has something like $13MM due next year. Konerko has trade veto power. Quentin will obviously be back, provided he's healthy, which he should be. Dye will probably be back. The positions that are open are CF, 3B, and 2B/SS (depending on what they do with Cabrera and Ramirez). Maybe they go after Chone Figgins, but he's going to be difficult to pry from the Angels, and I'm not sure what we have to offer. That leaves two positions to be filled via free agency, and given some of the other contracts we have, we aren't going to be getting the cream of the crop.

On the pitching side, our four main starters will probably all be back. There is a chance they will try to trade one of them for a CF or 3B, but then they will have to fill two spots in the rotation. The bullpen will still feature Jenks and Linebrink (good), Thornton and Dotel (decent), and an assortment of ex-Royals and other castoffs that KW picks up. As far as I know, there is nothing exciting waiting in the minors in terms of pitchers. Broadway, Russell, etc. might suddenly turn out to be good, but most likely they will be what they have shown thus far and what most Sox pitching prospects turn out to be.

So, basically, I don't see a whole lot of options. Maybe the Sox can get Taveras for cheap from the Rockies. He definitely has the speed and defense, and he was able to get on base in 2007. With their plethora of OFs, they might be willing to trade him. Figgins would be a good table-setter as well, and maybe Getz will turn into a real major leaguer. Most likely, though, the Sox pick up an Adrian Beltre or other veteran who is on discount because his team wants to dump a contract. I see the Sox as a .490 to .530 team for the next two to three years, with a chance to .550 in seasons when the rest of the divisions sucks (a la 2008). I think Kenny will try to patch the biggest holes that he sees via free agency and by trading what little talent is left in the minors, and that will keep us from really moving forward for a while.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 11:19 AM
I would like to add that as long as the Sox management/coaching/culture takes players with good fundamentals and a willingness to hit the opposite way and turns them into pull-happy, fence-swinging pop out machines, they will be incapable of building a balanced and consistent offense. Just look at what has happened recently with Ramirez and Wise, and in the past to Uribe. The home run philosophy that dominates this offense is, in my opinion, detrimental to playing good baseball. Hitting homers doesn't make you a bad team, but focusing on them to the point of refusing to hit to the opposite field does.

sox1970
09-25-2008, 11:22 AM
The consequences won't be felt in the pitching staff too much. Buehrle, Vazquez, Floyd, and Danks will all be back. They'll probably try to acquire a 5th starter, and put Richard in the pen, with Thornton, Jenks, Dotel, Linebrink, and maybe Carrasco.

For all of the people wantning to trade Vazquez, be careful what you wish for. Look around baseball, and ask if you really want him traded. I sure don't.

The biggest keys to the off season will be getting a legit leadoff guy, trying to move Konerko, and getting an infielder since Cabrera will be gone.

thedudeabides
09-25-2008, 11:23 AM
I certainly think there will be changes on the player level. I expect nothing as far as the coaches and management goes. I really can't see any justification to fire any of them.

I think it was pretty telling that Kenny took the trip to Minnesota, even though he clearly stated he didn't want to, to look his players in the eyes. It tells me there are certain guys he doesn't feel good about. I have no idea which ones. (Javy is really the only one that pops out)

We know it's highly likely that Cabrera and Crede will be gone, which frees up about $15 million. It hurts that the Sox will essentially have to eat Jose's contract next year, but after raises there should still be some money to spend and they have traditionally raised payroll.

That being said, I would expect the Sox to be looking for a second and third basemen with some speed. I don't think either will come from within. I would also expect another starter to be acquired, most likely from a trade. The Sox do have a good track record of acquiring starters at a relative bargain and certainly don't like hitting the free agent market for starters.

I have no idea what is going to happen with the CF situation and that'll be interesting to watch. Other than maybe a slot or two in the bullpen, I can't see a whole lot happening. I really can't see a big overhaul. The rest of the positions are pretty much set in stone. They may try and move Thome/Konerko but they certainly won't give them away, and the market probably won't be very welcoming.

Although, trying to predict what KW will do is nearly impossible. All of these positions may be filled through trades. Say what you want about the farm system, but he has acquired some pretty strong pieces with what he has and I don't expect that to change any time soon.

I don't think any of the plans will change depending on how the rest of the season goes. I believe they see the changes that need to be made and will act accordingly.

oeo
09-25-2008, 11:27 AM
Lots of harshness directed towards AJ.

You can't blame him for guys running considerig the fact that most of the Sox pitchers do a terrible job of holding the runners.

And it's not like there are any good options out there.

AJ is by far our best option. AJ takes too long to get rid of the ball, but our pitchers need to keep runners close. With the exception of Buehrle, no one does this well. Gavin has gotten better by altering his time out of the stretch, but he's still slow as hell to the plate so sometimes it doesn't even matter (and would it hurt to throw it over there a couple of times). Danks' pickoff move has improved immensely, but he doesn't use it a whole lot. Javy is almost in Freddy territory where he just doesn't give a ****.

Not to mention, Cabrera and Alexei constantly just concede third base.

In other words, AJ isn't the only problem defending stolen bases. It's an all around ****ty job.

voodoochile
09-25-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm more on the tweak not tear down mode. I think this season would be already over except for the rash of horrible injuries the Sox sustained late this season.

But, to put another light on it...

Of the big contracts the Sox have, most of them will be back due to simple logistics:

Konerko: has full veto on any trade. Doesn't mean he wouldn't allow one, but the Sox would be selling low, way low.

Thome: He's back, get over it. If he puts up the numbers he did this year, he's worth it anyway.

Dye: I hope he retires as a Sox player. Rough end of year or not, this guy has been money from the moment he arrived and 2 or 3 HR between now and the end of the season will make a lot of people forget about his troubles the rest of this month.

Contreras: He's injured and thus untradable. Sox will have to eat this contract if it's not covered on insurance.

Vazquez: With the development of Danks and Floyd, he could easily drop to 4th starter next year and his numbers are fine for a fourth starter. In fact, he'll probably dominate the pitchers he comes up against because he'll get more run support as his offense faces lesser starters than he is used to.

I don't see any other massive contracts that truly hinder the Sox ability to sign/trade. If any of those players can be traded, certainly they should look at it, but I wouldn't want to sell PK or Vazquez for a bag of baseballs just to free up money. PK, Dye and Vazquez have the most trade value and there are teams who would be interested, probably, but the Sox would probably have to throw in money to make things even if they got prospects back.

Some money will free up from the loss of OC and Crede - though I'd take OC back in a heart beat if the Sox can sign him to a 3 year deal. He's been a team leader from day one, has contributed both with his stick and his glove and seems to have a good clubhouse personality. I doubt he's here, simply because the Sox have to save some money somewhere if they are going to make a run at the positions they really need.

Small money players with at least some trade value include, Swisher, Logan, BA, Richard, Russell, Fields and Getz. Obviously Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd and Danks are on that list too, but they won't be traded unless the Sox get some kind of blockbuster ROI and even then, it's a bad idea, IMO.

Here's what I expect to happen:

No major changes with any big money contract.

Sox acquire one of 3 need positions with the money freed up from OC and Crede - 2B, 3B or CF.

Owens is one B/U OF next year.

Uribe is B/U IF.

Fields will start if they don't acquire 3B.

Getz will start if they don't acquire 2B.

Swish will start in CF if they don't acquire CF.

Ramirez is moving to SS.

I expect KW to sign a veteran retread 5th starter (Maddux anyone?) with Richard and Russell working long relief in the BP. Richard is the B/U plan if anyone gets hurt. With MacDougal apparently finally finding something, the Sox are pretty well set in the BP and I don't see any money being spent there at all. In fact, there's maybe one too many arms, so someone might get traded.

Fields, Swisher, Logan, Richard would be a pretty good starting point in trade talks.

Still, I guess time will tell exactly what happens, but most of this team will be back, IMO.

CashMan
09-25-2008, 11:41 AM
Uribe is B/U IF.

Fields will start if they don't acquire 3B.

Getz will start if they don't acquire 2B.

Swish will start in CF if they don't acquire CF.

Ramirez is moving to SS.

I expect KW to sign a veteran retread 5th starter (Maddux anyone?) with Richard and Russell working long relief in the BP. Richard is the B/U plan if anyone gets hurt. With MacDougal apparently finally finding something, the Sox are pretty well set in the BP and I don't see any money being spent there at all. In fact, there's maybe one too many arms, so someone might get traded.

Fields, Swisher, Logan, Richard would be a pretty good starting point in trade talks.

Still, I guess time will tell exactly what happens, but most of this team will be back, IMO.

I don't think Chicago is on Greg's radar to where he wants to pitch. Uribe will be the 3rd baseman next year, although I hate the idea. Swisher is the starting CF, unless they trade him, which I don't know what you could get for him. BA should be starting in CF next year, but he won't be. I don't know if you can let MacDougal pitch in AAA for 2mill again next year. Signing OC to a contract isn't going to happen. He walked away from Boston after they won a championship, just for money. As for Javy, 10mill for a 4th starter is a lot, but then again a .500 pitcher as your 4th starter isn't bad. And for the 5th starter, I would like to see some of these rookies battle it out, rather than going and acquiring some bum. I still think they gave up on Masset. I think he is a SP, and did not thrive in a RP role.

PatK
09-25-2008, 11:49 AM
I expect KW to sign a veteran retread 5th starter (Maddux anyone?)

Maddux's numbers weren't so hot in pitcher friendly Petco.

He'll get torched at the Cell. No thanks.

oeo
09-25-2008, 11:50 AM
Maddux's numbers weren't so hot in pitcher friendly Petco.

He'll get torched at the Cell. No thanks.

Actually, he was very good in Petco (but if you can't pitch there, you shouldn't be pitching). Still, I agree, Greg Maddux in the AL = very bad news. Besides, he wants to stay on the west coast.

Jurr
09-25-2008, 11:55 AM
You've gotta try and move some players. New blood has to infuse this roster. Get some guys that have A.)talent and B.)something to prove.

Quentin has played like a beast while trying to prove himself as a front line player. Podsednik had to prove that he was worth the trade for Lee as well as proving he wasn't a one year wonder in Milwaukee. Pierzynski ('05 vintage) was trying to shake the 'bad teammate' rap. Everett was a player that the book said was too often injured, as was Dye. Crede and Rowand were considered to be nothing but replaceable parts.

This team is loaded with veterans that are absolutely loaded to the gills with money and fame. Some of the vets have won their ring and have the big contracts to show for it. Those that haven't make comments about heading to the beach and forgetting about it.

Get me some guys with something to prove.

SoxyStu
09-25-2008, 11:57 AM
Win or lose by a game or two or three - will have no impact. Whatever KW and OG were going to do, they will do anyhow. One or two or three games difference means very little when it comes to strategic planning.

There may be significant tactical differences (lots of $ we would lose from not making the post season) but that is different than the strategic plans they have.

Ya know, I, for the most part, agree with you. If they don't finish this thing, they can easily spin how all of the baseball "experts" pegged the White Sox as one of the bottom dwellers of the AL central. They can release how Williams and Guillen knew how great this team good be how they knew what they had all along..etc, etc.

As we've disagreed about members of the coaching staff (I promise I'm not trying to start another debate with you regarding Walk), I don't expect any guillatine to drop on anyone; if some members of the staff aren't back, I think it'll be on their own accord.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 12:04 PM
I would not be surprised in the least to see Uribe in a starting role next year. There are too many positions to fill via free agency and trades, and since there is nothing available from the minors, Uribe will find his way in. That is a piece of the lineup that nobody has complained about yet, but when he's playing every day and batting .235 or so, it will become an issue again.

By the way, somewhat unrelated, but there is an interesting article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=3589629) by Buster Olney on the Yankees farm system and organizational strategy over the last seven years. The only reason I mention it is that I see similarities to the White Sox. We haven't relied as heavily on free agency, but we have focused on making trades to plug holes at the expense of developing players. I hope that this changes soon, because the White Sox don't have the resources of the Yankees to pull this off. I think that continued reliance on acquiring major league talent from outside will lead to an extended period of mediocrity.

CashMan
09-25-2008, 12:11 PM
I would not be surprised in the least to see Uribe in a starting role next year. There are too many positions to fill via free agency and trades, and since there is nothing available from the minors, Uribe will find his way in. That is a piece of the lineup that nobody has complained about yet, but when he's playing every day and batting .235 or so, it will become an issue again.



I think I've made my point that I am the President of the I hate Juan Uribe fan club very clear. I hate him with a passion! And as much as I hate it, he will be the starting 3rd baseman next year. Why, I have no idea. I was still wondering why Eckstein wasn't signed last year. But they will give Uribe a 1 or 2 year deal for like 6mill a year, and he will hit .230. I am sure someone will say he is hitting .250 right now, but everyone gets hot.

JB98
09-25-2008, 12:19 PM
What kills me is Ozzie complains and complains and complains about the home-run-or-nothing style and the lack of situational hitting and speed, yet nothing ever changes.

The problems we face now are still the same problems we faced at the end of the 2006 season. NOTHING has changed.

We're in jeopardy of blowing a playoff spot in September for the second time in three years because of the inability to execute offensively.

If the Sox miss the playoffs, there better be consequences. They need to determine who is accountable and make changes. Whether it's the players, Ozzie, Kenny, the coaches, whatever. What I've seen from this group on this road trip is entirely unacceptable.

There is still time to sack up and win the division. The Sox still have control over their own destiny. But if they throw this opportunity away, somebody has to pay.

35th and Shields
09-25-2008, 12:24 PM
:scratch:

No Joe Crede

No TCQ

No Jose

Yet they are still in first by 1/2 game with 4 to go.

This team needs minor tweakage not a complete overhaul.

Come on guys :rolleyes:

Your right, if we keep basically the same roster for next year we have might have a shot at the division, but when I look at the makeup of our team, we don't have what it takes to win in october. Thats all I care about

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 12:36 PM
What kills me is Ozzie complains and complains and complains about the home-run-or-nothing style and the lack of situational hitting and speed, yet nothing ever changes.

The problems we face now are still the same problems we faced at the end of the 2006 season. NOTHING has changed.

We're in jeopardy of blowing a playoff spot in September for the second time in three years because of the inability to execute offensively.

If the Sox miss the playoffs, there better be consequences. They need to determine who is accountable and make changes. Whether it's the players, Ozzie, Kenny, the coaches, whatever. What I've seen from this group on this road trip is entirely unacceptable.

There is still time to sack up and win the division. The Sox still have control over their own destiny. But if they throw this opportunity away, somebody has to pay.

They are the same problems that we had from 2001 to 2004 as well. After '04, KW got fed up and got rid of two of the biggest sluggers. And it wasn't like Maggs and Lee were .250 hitters who only hit homers; they batted .300 or better and hit plenty of doubles. But, at least the way I interpret it, freeing up that money allowed him to focus on pitchers like Freddy Garcia, which was what ultimately won the championship. If you can build an adequate offense based on consistency to go with a solid defense and dominant pitching staff, you can win a lot of games.

So what the heck happened to Kenny? I think he assumed the reason they won in 2005 was his cunning moves, plus he wanted more offense so he forgot the whole lesson. Since then he's been trying to rob the bargain bin and stockpile veteran power hitters.

CashMan
09-25-2008, 12:36 PM
If the Sox miss the playoffs, there better be consequences. They need to determine who is accountable and make changes. Whether it's the players, Ozzie, Kenny, the coaches, whatever. What I've seen from this group on this road trip is entirely unacceptable.

There is still time to sack up and win the division. The Sox still have control over their own destiny. But if they throw this opportunity away, somebody has to pay.

There are consequences. Raines in 06, and Shines in 07. It didn't make sense why they got rid of them.

twentywontowin
09-25-2008, 12:39 PM
They are the same problems that we had from 2001 to 2004 as well. After '04, KW got fed up and got rid of two of the biggest sluggers. And it wasn't like Maggs and Lee were .250 hitters who only hit homers; they batted .300 or better and hit plenty of doubles. But, at least the way I interpret it, freeing up that money allowed him to focus on pitchers like Freddy Garcia, which was what ultimately won the championship. If you can build an adequate offense based on consistency to go with a solid defense and dominant pitching staff, you can win a lot of games.

So what the heck happened to Kenny? I think he assumed the reason they won in 2005 was his cunning moves, plus he wanted more offense so he forgot the whole lesson. Since then he's been trying to rob the bargain bin and stockpile veteran power hitters.

Kenny is all about making the high risk move that gives you the high upside. Unfortunately, when that doesn't work, it makes people want your head under the guillotine.

Law11
09-25-2008, 12:40 PM
My issue that whatever happens next year we need guys that can step in due to injuries. PK, DYE, AJ, THOME, these guys will continue to have injury issues as they get older.. Minnesota will be right there next year with a young, fast gritty and experienced team while we continue to play hit the target in the seats with a lineup of slow station to station guys who need a homer to score from third (borrowed that from deLuca this morning).

Our pitching will be pretty good but we need a 5th starter, hell even someone just to eat up innings. And a bullpen that doesnt consist of any old KC Royal cast offs or anyone named Boone.

The div will be up for grabs again next year. here's hoping KW can unearth another few gems next off season to get us some speed, some guys who know what fundamental baseball is all about. I dont need a big name. I want guys who can put the bat on the ball and guy who comes out of the pen throwing strikes.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 12:40 PM
That is interesting about Thome.
If by "interesting", you mean factually inaccurate.

So Jurr -- you want a roster full of unproven guys?

I'm guessing we won in 2005 because we had the best starting rotation/bullpen in a long, long time.

JB98
09-25-2008, 12:51 PM
They are the same problems that we had from 2001 to 2004 as well. After '04, KW got fed up and got rid of two of the biggest sluggers. And it wasn't like Maggs and Lee were .250 hitters who only hit homers; they batted .300 or better and hit plenty of doubles. But, at least the way I interpret it, freeing up that money allowed him to focus on pitchers like Freddy Garcia, which was what ultimately won the championship. If you can build an adequate offense based on consistency to go with a solid defense and dominant pitching staff, you can win a lot of games.

So what the heck happened to Kenny? I think he assumed the reason they won in 2005 was his cunning moves, plus he wanted more offense so he forgot the whole lesson. Since then he's been trying to rob the bargain bin and stockpile veteran power hitters.

Kenny seems to feel that he has built a great team this year, as shown in his recent comments about how the Sox should wrapped this division up long ago.

I think he has assembled a very top-heavy roster. There are 10-12 guys on this team who are really damn good players. But there isn't a lot of depth in the organization, and it has shown as injuries have mounted in the second half.

In any season, you are going to have to dip into your farm system for help at some point. Who has come up from Charlotte to help us this year? Wise and Carrasco - two veteran journeymen. That's it. Not a single young player has come up from Charlotte to make an impact.

The coaching staff has limited options in a lot of cases. We're playing Russian Roulette with the fifth-starter spot since Contreras went down. Right-handed middle relief has been a cluster**** since Linebrink got hurt. In a lot of cases, Ozzie's hands are tied. But I wonder whether KW will blame Ozzie, because in his public comments he seems pretty satisfied with the roster he has assembled.

Carolina Kenny
09-25-2008, 12:56 PM
I am tired of it taking four hits to score a run. We just can't continue with below leauge average speed guys:
AJ
Konerko
Thome
Griffey

and then put just average speed guys in the lineup:
Swisher
Dye
Uribe
TCQ

and then decent speed guys
OC (gone anyway)
TCM

Old and slow is no way to build a team. If Major Reconstruction does not make a appearence next year, then certainly in 2010 it will happen.

We need to some how break this log jam and I'm sure Kenny is trying to maximize our assests. As long as our core of starters remain healthy along with a dominating closer (Jenks) we should not drop to the depths of 2007.

With the core of Dye, Konerko, Thome most likely back next year, the places to pick up speed are CF, and 3b. Speed at 3rd is tough to find. That makes finding speed for CF our biggest priority, and don't get me started about the lack of respect for defense and speed that the Sox organization has.

Britt Burns
09-25-2008, 01:00 PM
I think Walker is gone already, with the lone possible exception of a World Series win. He was on thin ice before, I'm sure the last week seals the deal.

kitekrazy
09-25-2008, 01:04 PM
For all of the people wantning to trade Vazquez, be careful what you wish for. Look around baseball, and ask if you really want him traded. I sure don't.


Good point. He's an average to below average starter that can give you innings. He's getting paid the market value owners are willing to give up for pitching.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 01:04 PM
There are consequences. Raines in 06, and Shines in 07. It didn't make sense why they got rid of them.

Sometimes it Raines, sometimes it Shines. :tongue:

Sorry. I had to.

kitekrazy
09-25-2008, 01:12 PM
Maddux's numbers weren't so hot in pitcher friendly Petco.

He'll get torched at the Cell. No thanks.

There's a lot of guys from the NL that would get lit up in the AL. Look at what CC is doing in the NL.

kitekrazy
09-25-2008, 01:20 PM
If by "interesting", you mean factually inaccurate.

So Jurr -- you want a roster full of unproven guys?


I wouldn't go that far. Facts or not so far the Sox have not seen the post season since they traded for a DH. I can't stand the DH. I want one that can also play the field if necessary.

So far the "proven" guys are proving age is catching up. It's the veterans that have choked this year. It's sad when the best player on the team almost didn't make the team.

palehozenychicty
09-25-2008, 01:35 PM
What kills me is Ozzie complains and complains and complains about the home-run-or-nothing style and the lack of situational hitting and speed, yet nothing ever changes.

The problems we face now are still the same problems we faced at the end of the 2006 season. NOTHING has changed.

We're in jeopardy of blowing a playoff spot in September for the second time in three years because of the inability to execute offensively.

If the Sox miss the playoffs, there better be consequences. They need to determine who is accountable and make changes. Whether it's the players, Ozzie, Kenny, the coaches, whatever. What I've seen from this group on this road trip is entirely unacceptable.

There is still time to sack up and win the division. The Sox still have control over their own destiny. But if they throw this opportunity away, somebody has to pay.


Thank you. I've been wondering the same thing. As much as I like KW, he's built the same team (slow, power-laden) most of this decade and the one year he deviated a little with (Podsednik), they won it all. The pitching aligned and was phenomenal, but they were a much better balanced lineup. I hate to say it, but trading for Thome has not made this team better. Yes, the pitching staff has been uneven since then, but the lineup has been too one-dimensional. Again.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 01:37 PM
It's the veterans that have choked this year. It's sad when the best player on the team almost didn't make the team.

The best two players. Neither TCQ nor TCM was expected to make the Opening Day roster.

Though Kenny did clearly make good decisions in acquiring these two guys, there is no way he expected the production they've given. Without them, this team is fighting the Royals and Tigers.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2008, 01:37 PM
As much as I ragged on Kenny this off season, I don't think he should be fired. Fixing the mess from last year was going to take more than one year and Kenny has the frame work for very good team if he makes some minor adjustments. This isn't exactly the team that Ozzie dreamed of in the off season, I'm sure. I fail to see what firing Greg Walker would do besides appease some of the fan base here. Certain players should be gone (I don't think we can have Swisher, Konerko, Thome and Dye on the same team and if I had to choose which one would be gone, it's bye-bye Swish). Obviously more speed is desired, but if the same thing happens in '09 (ie we choke) someone has to be fired.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2008, 01:43 PM
Thank you. I've been wondering the same thing. As much as I like KW, he's built the same team (slow, power-laden) most of this decade and the one year he deviated a little with (Podsednik), they won it all. The pitching aligned and was phenomenal, but they were a much better balanced lineup. I hate to say it, but trading for Thome has not made this team better. Yes, the pitching staff has been uneven since then, but the lineup has been too one-dimensional. Again.

Yep. Agreed. Kenny gets a lot of credit for 2005, but I think the real genius in his moves that year was focusing on pitching with only average hitting. Granted, he wasn't responsible for Garland's breakout year, and it was a gamble that Jose would ever amount to anything, but trading for and signing Freddy was enabled by dumping the salaries of Maggs and Lee.

I think he should again construct an offense that is not Murderers' Row, but nevertheless consistent, and take the extra money to spend on a really good pitching staff. Though I would rather build a team through development, this seems to be the best option for the short term.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2008, 01:46 PM
Yep. Agreed. Kenny gets a lot of credit for 2005, but I think the real genius in his moves that year was focusing on pitching with only average hitting. Granted, he wasn't responsible for Garland's breakout year, and it was a gamble that Jose would ever amount to anything, but trading for and signing Freddy was enabled by dumping the salaries of Maggs and Lee.

I think he should again construct an offense that is not Murderers' Row, but nevertheless consistent, and take the extra money to spend on a really good pitching staff. Though I would rather build a team through development, this seems to be the best option for the short term.
I don't mind if we have a 3-4-5-6 tandem that can mash the hell out of the ball and is station to station, but that means 1-2 and 7-8-9 HAVE to get and HAVE to be able to steal and move runners over so the big boys in the middle can drive them in. We can keep Dye, Konerko, Thome and Quentin (who actually has fairly good speed), but we need a lot of speed to build around those guys.

btrain929
09-25-2008, 01:48 PM
I don't see any way Walker or Ozzie get fired. Fans have been asking about Walker's status for a few seasons, and he's not gone yet. So I don't see him leaving now. I wish they would can him, but I'm not optimistic. As for Ozzie, JR would never fire him. Too much loyalty there.

Whether they make it to October or not, I don't want to see Thome, Konerko, or Pierzynski here next year. I'm sick of slow station-to-station ball. The team hasn't been able to consistently manufacture runs since the first half of 2006 and this has GOT to change. I'm not going to enjoy these last 4 or 5 games. I don't wish my beloved Sox any ill, but this team doesn't excite me. They have their moments, but the up and down attitudes kill me.

Thome just had his option kick in and is actually putting up decent DH numbers, and AJ just signed an extension and is batting .280 at the C position. Stop being dumb.

russ99
09-25-2008, 01:48 PM
I think there will be consequences even if we make it.

Kenny will be AL Executive of the year if the Sox make the playoffs. He's one of the best GM's in baseball and will be here for a long time.

Hopefully Ozzie stays, but things are a bit strained between him and Kenny. I don't see him getting fired, but there's always a chance he walks away. But that would be bad for the Sox.

If Walker isn't cut loose, I'd be shocked. Midseason isn't the time to make a change at hitting coach, but the hitting on this team considering the talent level has been extremely poor, and there will be good replacements available.

Coop, Baines, Cox and Cora have done a good job, they stay. If anything, move Baines into another role and get a baserunning-soild 1B coach.

Crede and Cabrera are gone, and I'd be willing to bet 1-2 of Thome, Konerko and Dye will also be gone. All three have decent numbers but have taken a big step down from '05 (06 in Jim's case) Not sure yet on Javy, since his trade value is pretty low right now, and we'd need to get a nice return on him.

Pierzynski is one of the best catchers in the AL, no way does he leave.

We'll need another starter, reliever, 3B, 2B, CF and another potential slugger for the farm. Kenny will have a busy winter.

Lundind1
09-25-2008, 01:53 PM
Pierzynski is one of the best catchers in the AL, no way does he leave.

We'll need another starter, reliever, 3B, 2B, CF and another potential slugger for the farm. Kenny will have a busy winter.

I second and third both of those ideas. Kenny is now in a effort to rebuild the farm and I think that it will pay off big time, but it will take some time.

btrain929
09-25-2008, 02:10 PM
You've gotta try and move some players. New blood has to infuse this roster. Get some guys that have A.)talent and B.)something to prove.

Quentin has played like a beast while trying to prove himself as a front line player. Podsednik had to prove that he was worth the trade for Lee as well as proving he wasn't a one year wonder in Milwaukee. Pierzynski ('05 vintage) was trying to shake the 'bad teammate' rap. Everett was a player that the book said was too often injured, as was Dye. Crede and Rowand were considered to be nothing but replaceable parts.

This team is loaded with veterans that are absolutely loaded to the gills with money and fame. Some of the vets have won their ring and have the big contracts to show for it. Those that haven't make comments about heading to the beach and forgetting about it.

Get me some guys with something to prove.

Sounds like Reggie Willits to me. Crowded OF in ANA, had a breakout rookie year, then didn't play at all this year. Go get 'em, Kenny!

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2008, 02:18 PM
I think there will be consequences even if we make it.

Kenny will be AL Executive of the year if the Sox make the playoffs. He's one of the best GM's in baseball and will be here for a long time.

Hopefully Ozzie stays, but things are a bit strained between him and Kenny. I don't see him getting fired, but there's always a chance he walks away. But that would be bad for the Sox.

If Walker isn't cut loose, I'd be shocked. Midseason isn't the time to make a change at hitting coach, but the hitting on this team considering the talent level has been extremely poor, and there will be good replacements available.

Coop, Baines, Cox and Cora have done a good job, they stay. If anything, move Baines into another role and get a baserunning-soild 1B coach.

Crede and Cabrera are gone, and I'd be willing to bet 1-2 of Thome, Konerko and Dye will also be gone. All three have decent numbers but have taken a big step down from '05 (06 in Jim's case) Not sure yet on Javy, since his trade value is pretty low right now, and we'd need to get a nice return on him.

Pierzynski is one of the best catchers in the AL, no way does he leave.

We'll need another starter, reliever, 3B, 2B, CF and another potential slugger for the farm. Kenny will have a busy winter.


I agree. Not because AJ is great but becuase Catcher has become a very weak position in the AL.

NLaloosh
09-25-2008, 03:35 PM
Firstly, let me say that regardless of what happens the rest of the season, I feel much better abou the White Sox organization now than I did at this time last year.

This is a very good team right now. With Quentin back next year they will be fine.

They will easily add an acceptable 5th starter. Javy is not going anywhere nor should he. His contract is reasonable for what he is - a good back of the rotation starter. He will never be a # 1 or # 2 no matter how much potential he has.

I don't get all the animosity toward A.J. He's the same player that he's always been. He's slumping at the moment but he plays his butt off and does a good job. He's not paid like the best catcher iin the game. The Sox will not do better here and have no other options. Getting a backup catcher that can shut down the running game is a nice idea.

Thome not going anywhere next year and thank goodness. It's nice to have a player on this team that can take a pitch.

Fields is gone.

Getz will not be starting even if he isn't traded.

2b and 3b is where the changes and the impact have to be made.

And, lastly, SWISHER IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. The guy had a bad year. All 3 of his seasons prior were better. He's only 27! He's a switchitting OF/1B with power and a great team player with a reasonable contract. HE'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

Maybe, the guy just had a tough time adjusting to a new team, city, spot in the lineup and being a full-time CFer. He's had 1 bad season. He'll be fine next year.

Even though I love Paulie and it would be selling low, I think he needs to go . This team can't afford him anymore and needs to get quicker. Swisher should be the full-time 1B.

hi im skot
09-25-2008, 03:36 PM
AJ will slam his bat to the ground and pout some more.

ChiSoxFan7
09-25-2008, 04:07 PM
AJ will slam his bat to the ground and pout some more.

I get what you're saying about the pouting...


but if he didn't get upset that wouldn't be

A) AJ

B) passion.


He loves winning and is one of the players you should love to have on your team and hate to play against. For a while this year he was the only one batting near .300. Every pitcher seems to like pitching to him (calls a good game in my personal opinion)



Finally.... why is it when AJ slams his bat he get ridiculed but when TCQ screams out curses after missing a hit we love his passion. it's the same thing in a different form.

whitesox901
09-25-2008, 04:10 PM
:scratch:

No Joe Crede

No TCQ

No Jose

Yet they are still in first by 1/2 game with 4 to go.

This team needs minor tweakage not a complete overhaul.

Come on guys :rolleyes:

That is a good point to bring up, but heres one I like too

Id like to see some speed, Willits in CF

Young infield; Swisher at 1B, Getz at 2B, Ramirez at SS, Fields at 3B. Im still sticking with Joshy, im betting if he has a full year at third, he can have a decent year gloving third a pretty nice year at the plate. This year he looked bad, but he was injured a couple times at AAA early on.

If Dye can DH, if Thome is traded (which I doubt), the OF look pretty damn good with TCQ, Anderson and Willits.

What? Dont like BA? Look at Its Dankerific's Sig! But the fact of the matter is, I like his D, but not so much his bat, kinda Sounds like Uribe of 05', 06', 07' dosn't it? No biggie, I didnt mind that Juan wasnt the big slugger, but loved his glove, thats how it is with me twords BA.

Also go sign another starter and another bullpen pitcher.

hi im skot
09-25-2008, 04:12 PM
I get what you're saying about the pouting...


but if he didn't get upset that wouldn't be

A) AJ

B) passion.


He loves winning and is one of the players you should love to have on your team and hate to play against. For a while this year he was the only one batting near .300. Every pitcher seems to like pitching to him (calls a good game in my personal opinion)



Finally.... why is it when AJ slams his bat he get ridiculed but when TCQ screams out curses after missing a hit we love his passion. it's the same thing in a different form.

If AJ doesn't putz around slamming his bat Tuesday (or was it Wednesday?) night, he beats out the groundball and the Sox score a run.

Quentin screaming after a pop-up is obnoxious, but it doesn't slow him down.

ChiSoxFan7
09-25-2008, 04:16 PM
If AJ doesn't putz around slamming his bat Tuesday (or was it Wednesday?) night, he beats out the groundball and the Sox score a run.

Quentin screaming after a pop-up is obnoxious, but it doesn't slow him down.


Good point with the slam on w/e night it was, but i would like a player to be that passionate at the right time (ala the 59 jersey game vs. the dodgers) then show no passion at all

that was i guess my point.

hi im skot
09-25-2008, 04:19 PM
Good point with the slam on w/e night it was, but i would like a player to be that passionate at the right time (ala the 59 jersey game vs. the dodgers) then show no passion at all

that was i guess my point.

The White Sox marketing department agrees with you.



I'd prefer hustle to AJ's "passion" on this particular play. His "passionate" act has gotten old over the past two months.

Hokiesox
09-25-2008, 05:18 PM
AJ will slam his bat to the ground and pout some more.

I despise the bat slamming antics.

Jurr
09-25-2008, 06:02 PM
I despise the bat slamming antics.
Reminds me of Homecoming my senior year. Packed crowd. I drop a slant in the game. I come to the sideline and throw my helmet to the ground in anger.

The head coach comes out of nowhere and screams (which was heard by a LOT of people in the stands), "You pick that helmet up...it's worth more than you are! That helmet didn't drop the ball. You did!"

Gulp.

ChiSoxFan7
09-25-2008, 06:56 PM
I despise the bat slamming antics.

better than breaking it across your push off leg....:cool:

Madvora
09-25-2008, 07:12 PM
I hope to god that there will be consequences even if we end up winning the next 4 games in a row.
This team was good enough to win the division with Crede, Contreras and Quentin, but still not as good as it should have been. There were plenty of problems even then that needed to be addressed. I hope they don't turn a blind eye to everything just because they make the playoffs.

DSpivack
09-25-2008, 07:50 PM
Fire Walker.

Fire Ozzie.

At the least.

SOXfnNlansing
09-25-2008, 07:56 PM
I wouldn't categorize the Sox getting bumped out of the playoffs as 'blowing it'. They have been just hanging around the past 6 weeks under .500. No one in the division really got hot. The Sox have had too many weaknesses exposed with all the injuries.

Domeshot17
09-25-2008, 08:04 PM
Not going through the last 7 pages and Im sure Ill be roasted for saying it but if we miss the playoffs I hope Kenny gets canned, or atleast put on an inch long leash. This is his team. This is the team he built. He knew how Ozzie likes to coach and he ignored it. He knew the bullpen had holes and he didn't address them. He made some brilliant moves and he struck out on some. The hard part is I am not sure if there is a better GM available, but at some point he has to be responsible for the team he builds.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Not going through the last 7 pages and Im sure Ill be roasted for saying it but if we miss the playoffs I hope Kenny gets canned, or atleast put on an inch long leash. This is his team. This is the team he built. He knew how Ozzie likes to coach and he ignored it. He knew the bullpen had holes and he didn't address them. He made some brilliant moves and he struck out on some. The hard part is I am not sure if there is a better GM available, but at some point he has to be responsible for the team he builds.
I don't know. I don't think it'd be very smart to blame Kenny for all of this. Despite what he said, I think he thought this would be a transitional season. If we went 84-78 with promising performances from the kids and no meltdown I think he'd retain his job with ease.

Daver
09-25-2008, 08:15 PM
Kenny Williams will not be fired as long as Jerry Reinsdorf is the managing partner, it's not even worth speculating about.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2008, 08:23 PM
Kenny Williams will not be fired as long as Jerry Reinsdorf is the managing partner, it's not even worth speculating about.
Thank you Daver. That's something I forgot to mention as well.

I know you don't like Ozzie's managing -- but doesn't Reinsdorf have the same feelings for OG that he does for Williams? I may be wrong.

rpac44
09-25-2008, 08:58 PM
Thome? Learn to go opposite field.

how many games do you watch? i personally am a fan of thome and would love to have him back so long as he hits in the neighborhood of 30 hr 90 rbi. That aside he's famous for (among other things) having exceptional opposite field power...

areilly
09-26-2008, 09:19 AM
Thank you Daver. That's something I forgot to mention as well.

I know you don't like Ozzie's managing -- but doesn't Reinsdorf have the same feelings for OG that he does for Williams? I may be wrong.

Seems to be the Reinsdorf M.O. - if you're in, you're in. JR's done a lot of things I as a fan despise, but I have always respected his loyalty to his friends.