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View Full Version : Who Is YOUR CF For the Minnesota Series?


TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 11:59 AM
Between our need for offense and assuming some close games on astroturf where defense will really matter...who do we go with in CF for the Minnesota series?

My vote: Anderson

Mr.1Dog
09-22-2008, 11:59 AM
Anderson.

hi im skot
09-22-2008, 12:00 PM
Torii Hunter

voodoochile
09-22-2008, 12:00 PM
We're facing three RHP this series. I don't think it matters one bit what you want. Ozzie hasn't started BA against a RHP all year I don't think.

DaveFeelsRight
09-22-2008, 12:03 PM
Jr for one game, Swish for one and the wise for the last.

eriqjaffe
09-22-2008, 12:04 PM
Knowing how much Ozzie loves to play the hot hand, I'd be surprised to see BA get the nod over Wise.

Of course, I fully expect it to be Griffey in center with Wise in left, and BA as a late-inning defensive replacement.

sox1970
09-22-2008, 12:08 PM
I'd definitely want Anderson, as I think this series will require the best defense possible.

But I can almost guarantee it'll be Wise in left and Griffey in center on Tuesday. That's just how Ozzie works.

EMachine10
09-22-2008, 12:09 PM
Should be Anderson.

chisoxfanatic
09-22-2008, 12:10 PM
Easily BA.

hawkjt
09-22-2008, 12:12 PM
Start jr. on tues with wise in left.
start BA or Swish on wednesday with wise in left
start jr on thurs. with wise in left.

Blackburn is a righty I think BA/swish can hit .
Jr. should not play 3 straight nites on turf.
Wise needs to play every game and hit second.

Go get'em sox.

TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 12:12 PM
We're facing three RHP this series. I don't think it matters one bit what you want. Ozzie hasn't started BA against a RHP all year I don't think.

I don't disagree...but the poll is about "YOUR" choice.

psyclonis
09-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Game 1 definitely BA

rdwj
09-22-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm sure Ozzie won't start him, but BA should be our starting CF

doublem23
09-22-2008, 12:42 PM
Anyone not named "Brian Anderson."

kittle42
09-22-2008, 12:44 PM
Anybody but Anderson

And that will undoubtedly be the choice.

In the middle of a huge pennant race and people still can't let the Anderson thing go.

He hasn't started all year. He won't start now. Why? He doesn't give this team the best chance to win, at least according to the manager.

voodoochile
09-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I don't disagree...but the poll is about "YOUR" choice.

I'll go with Ozzie and pick Griffey...

WhiteSoxBlog
09-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I would say put Wise and Griffey out there when Buehrle is pitching 'cause he's more likely to keep it in the infield so it's safer and they seem to be more reliable at bat right now. Then, Wise + Anderson in the OF when Floyd is pitching because he gets more fly balls. I would also keep the use of #30 to a minimum.

guillensdisciple
09-22-2008, 12:55 PM
It really shouldn't be that big of a difference playing Brian Anderson in center. Especially since he is a better fielder then both Grif and Swish. Also he has a better bat then Swish (for now). So what is the difficulty here?

CWSpalehoseCWS
09-22-2008, 01:58 PM
It would have to be Anderson because that field is so crappy.

WisSoxFan
09-22-2008, 02:03 PM
After see CWSpalehoseCWS' attendance record for 2008 I don't really care who play CF as long as he/she makes the trip to Minneapolis for the games. :D:

FedEx227
09-22-2008, 02:07 PM
Wise or Anderson. I'd like to have tip-top defense out there, especially with the fast surface of the Dome.

Daver
09-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Wise or Anderson. I'd like to have tip-top defense out there, especially with the fast surface of the Dome.


Dwayne Wise isn't good in left, and you want him in center?

munchman33
09-22-2008, 02:57 PM
How is Nick Swisher getting votes?

ajismyhero
09-22-2008, 02:57 PM
Has Griffey ever played in that dome before.....?

Foulke You
09-22-2008, 03:05 PM
Has Griffey ever played in that dome before.....?
I'm thinking you must be a relatively young White Sox fan. Griffey played many years for the Mariners before he laced up the spikes for the Reds. He played his home games at the King Dome in Seattle and yes, played road games in Minnesota before. He should be fine in the dome.

Foulke You
09-22-2008, 03:07 PM
I'll go with Ozzie and pick Griffey...
I'm going with Griffey as well. This is why we brought him here and he has to know this is his shot to make the postseason. He should be ready. Use Anderson as a late inning defensive sub in the 7th or 8th for Griffey if we have the lead.

ajismyhero
09-22-2008, 03:08 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=cws&baseballScope=CHA&teamPosCode=all&statType=1&timeSubFrame=2008&sitSplit=ba&venueID=ven8&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

Based on that, I say Anderson.

Thanks for answering the question about Griffey - I guess he was an ALer when I was a kid, but for some reason I've always thought of him as a NLer.

russ99
09-22-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm going with Wise, as we need his bat and baserunning a lot more than the defensive upgrade from Anderson. Starting Griffey in CF would be asking for trouble.

Foulke You
09-22-2008, 04:31 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?c_id=cws&baseballScope=CHA&teamPosCode=all&statType=1&timeSubFrame=2008&sitSplit=ba&venueID=ven8&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

Based on that, I say Anderson.

Thanks for answering the question about Griffey - I guess he was an ALer when I was a kid, but for some reason I've always thought of him as a NLer.
Wow...look at how poorly J.D. and Konerko have hit in the dome this year. Paulie is 2 for 15 and Dye is 3 for 22. Although Paulie has gotten considerably hotter since we last played the Twins. No problem about the dome question. I figured you were probably under 20 years old. Sometimes I think our posters here forget that Griffey is 38 years old and is now an old veteran that young Sox fans probably never saw play in his Mariners days. I still think of him as "the kid" from Seattle myself. Now, all we need is Griffey to recapture that Seattle magic for a few weeks and we'll be all set.

Adele_H
09-22-2008, 04:38 PM
There is only one viable option for CF, and that option is Brian Anderson.

Especially after witnessing the horrendeous OF display on Saturday in KC.

doublem23
09-22-2008, 04:39 PM
If the Sox want to win these games, they best do what they do best, beating the crap out of other teams. Playing Brian "No Stick, All Glove" Anderson isn't playing to win, it's playing not to lose.

Foulke You
09-22-2008, 04:43 PM
There is only one viable option for CF, and that option is Brian Anderson.

Especially after witnessing the horrendeous OF display on Saturday in KC.
I think some on this board are being a bit too negative about Griffey's CF defense. He has actually looked a lot better than I thought he would out there and in some series has made some good plays. I was expecting Mackowiak style CF defense but he has been better than I expected. I thought he looked very solid at Fenway Park and in Yankee Stadium this year. Griffey takes good routes to flyballs and still has great instincts. Junior knows exactly where that ball is going when it is hit, it's just a matter of whether his 38 year old legs can get him to where he needs to be before the ball drops there.:D: Ideally, I like having Griffey face the right handers with Anderson playing the late innings as a defensive sub. Against left handers, Anderson should play the whole game. Just my opinion.

Adele_H
09-22-2008, 05:19 PM
. "No Stick, All Glove" Anderson.

As opposed to "No stick, no glove" Griffey, Swisher?

TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm going with Griffey as well. This is why we brought him here and he has to know this is his shot to make the postseason. He should be ready. Use Anderson as a late inning defensive sub in the 7th or 8th for Griffey if we have the lead.

A 38 y.o. with almost no range and back problems on astro turf? So we can benefit from his .240's batting average?

TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 05:41 PM
If the Sox want to win these games, they best do what they do best, beating the crap out of other teams. Playing Brian "No Stick, All Glove" Anderson isn't playing to win, it's playing not to lose.

So we should play "No Stick. No Range" Griffey?

Get the pictures of Willie Mays in '73 for the Mets ready. Griffey on astroturf is almost unfair to HIM and his reputation/legacy.

Here's the post All Star break production for Griffey and Anderson:

Ken Griffey, Jr.: .248-1-14 in 113 ABs w/.345 slg., .673 OPS
Brian Anderson: .262-3-8 in 42 ABs w/.571 slg. , .867 OPS
(if you "normalize" for ABs, in 113 ABs, BA projects to: .262-8-22),

Where is the big impact on offense that offsets Griffey's liabilities on defense?

TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 05:43 PM
I think some on this board are being a bit too negative about Griffey's CF defense. He has actually looked a lot better than I thought he would out there and in some series has made some good plays. I was expecting Mackowiak style CF defense but he has been better than I expected. I thought he looked very solid at Fenway Park and in Yankee Stadium this year. Griffey takes good routes to flyballs and still has great instincts. Junior knows exactly where that ball is going when it is hit, it's just a matter of whether his 38 year old legs can get him to where he needs to be before the ball drops there.:D: Ideally, I like having Griffey face the right handers with Anderson playing the late innings as a defensive sub. Against left handers, Anderson should play the whole game. Just my opinion.

Watching Griffey cover CF is like watching a guy try to run in quicksand. His range has to be at least 30% less than the average CF...that's alot of extra space for a team like the Twins to drop in hits or have doubles make it to the wall...especially on turf.

2906
09-22-2008, 05:51 PM
So we should play "No Stick. No Range" Griffey?

Get the pictures of Willie Mays in '73 for the Mets ready. Griffey on astroturf is almost unfair to HIM and his reputation/legacy.

I'm not sure what's the point of this thread. You start a poll, push Brian Anderson to start (which is fine), and then proceed to debate everybody who voted someone other than Anderson in your poll. Why have a poll? Why not just start another Brian Anderson thread? The whole board knows you think Anderson should be starting, it's been well established by now.

TomBradley72
09-22-2008, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure what's the point of this thread. You start a poll, push Brian Anderson to start (which is fine), and then proceed to debate everybody who voted someone other than Anderson in your poll. Why have a poll? Why not just start another Brian Anderson thread? The whole board knows you think Anderson should be starting, it's been well established by now.

Sorry. I thought constructive debate was the reason these boards existed. I didn't realize if you start a thread you are only allowed one post of your opinion, and are not allowed any responses after that. I'll have to review the guidelines of these boards again. I am only debating the choice of Griffey. I believe that will be the choice Ozzie makes and I think it has a good chance of costing us the Division.

tstrike2000
09-22-2008, 06:03 PM
Bullpen and offense are what's been killing this team lately. So, I guess emphasis should be put on offense and that means not starting Anderson.

2906
09-22-2008, 06:06 PM
Sorry. I thought constructive debate was the reason these boards existed. I didn't realize if you start a thread you are only allowed one post of your opinion, and are not allowed any responses after that. I'll have to review the guidelines of these boards again. I am only debating the choice of Griffey. I believe that will be the choice Ozzie makes and I think it has a good chance of costing us the Division.

You know what, save the sarcastic overreaction nonsense.

We know where you stand, you've stated it only about 100 times. But go ahead and repeat yourself to no end if you wish.

FedEx227
09-22-2008, 06:11 PM
Dwayne Wise isn't good in left, and you want him in center?

I tried to calm the Anti-BA crew by at least throwing another guy in there that can at least hit while he's up there. I really want my best defense on the field for this entire series, so I would go Anderson, but that's not liked much around these parts.

I just fear a few Carlos Gomez gap triples that Griffey can't get to.

MarySwiss
09-22-2008, 06:17 PM
Tough call. I'd say play BA for his glove, but not if it means you have to sit Wise.

BigP50
09-22-2008, 06:22 PM
I say Wise.

He has been hitting home runs, making smart base running decisions and he can lay down a bunt

BoysMom3
09-22-2008, 08:11 PM
BA, but I don't see it happening.

DumpJerry
09-22-2008, 08:15 PM
One Dog.

FarWestChicago
09-22-2008, 08:21 PM
Why not just start another Brian Anderson thread?This is just another Brian Anderson thread. :D:

btrain929
09-22-2008, 08:53 PM
God, I'm bored.

Frater Perdurabo
09-22-2008, 09:13 PM
Give me BA, especially in the dome.

In CF, I gladly will give up offense to get better defense.

This year, BA has been slugging better than Griffey and Swisher.

Wise is outhitting all of them, but I still prefer BA's glove.

Based on how they are playing this season, especially recently, it seems to me the choice is obvious: BA in CF; Wise in LF.

kittle42
09-22-2008, 09:37 PM
Anderson won't get a start, I'd bet. We may as well be debating whether Wasserman should close in the 9th.

champagne030
09-22-2008, 09:40 PM
Anderson won't get a start, I'd bet. We may as well be debating whether Wasserman should close in the 9th.

Do not dare Oswaldo, PLEASE. :smile:

voodoochile
09-22-2008, 10:10 PM
82!

It's late September with the Sox in first having not played BA much at all this year and yet 82 FOBA's want to see him in the most crucial games of the year starting Tuesday...

Un-be-****ing-lievable...

Adele_H
09-22-2008, 10:17 PM
82!

It's late September with the Sox in first having not played BA much at all this year and yet 82 FOBA's want to see him in the most crucial games of the year starting Tuesday...

Un-be-****ing-lievable...

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it? But truth spoken by the majority - 82 so far and going strong - can also leave a permanent footprint on the soul.

'Brian Anderson' is not just a superbly gifted CF; it's a way of life.

voodoochile
09-22-2008, 10:45 PM
Truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it? But truth spoken by the majority - 82 so far and going strong - can also leave a permanent footprint on the soul.

'Brian Anderson' is not just a superbly gifted CF; it's a way of life.

I have no idea what that first paragraph means.


BA is a superb defensive outfielder who can't hit for ****. The Sox are in first with him riding pine all season, I see no reason to change now...

jabrch
09-22-2008, 10:47 PM
82!

It's late September with the Sox in first having not played BA much at all this year and yet 82 FOBA's want to see him in the most crucial games of the year starting Tuesday...

Un-be-****ing-lievable...


How hard is this to believe? You've been here for a while now...

Daver
09-22-2008, 10:53 PM
I have no idea what that first paragraph means.


BA is a superb defensive outfielder who can't hit for ****. The Sox are in first with him riding pine all season, I see no reason to change now...

How well are Griffey and Swisher hitting?

Let's just follow WSI logic and start Wise in center and Owens in left, neither one of them can field their postion but they have speed, it's all that counts.

voodoochile
09-22-2008, 10:58 PM
How well are Griffey and Swisher hitting?

Let's just follow WSI logic and start Wise in center and Owens in left, neither one of them can field their postion but they have speed, it's all that counts.

I'll take my chances that either Swish or Griffey will bust out and have a big series offensively over the chance that BA will make a major difference with his glove

Adele_H
09-22-2008, 11:13 PM
..

The voting distribution of 83:4 in favor of Anderson (over Ozzie's season-long toy soldier, Swisher) as the best choice for CF position, restores my faith in humanity just a little.

Daver
09-22-2008, 11:21 PM
I'll take my chances that either Swish or Griffey will bust out and have a big series offensively over the chance that BA will make a major difference with his glove

A glove is only one defensive tool.

Ask Jerry Owens what the other ones are, he is wondering the same thing himself.

JB98
09-22-2008, 11:25 PM
I'd go with Wise, but Ozzie will start Griffey.

munchman33
09-23-2008, 12:53 AM
82!

It's late September with the Sox in first having not played BA much at all this year and yet 82 FOBA's want to see him in the most crucial games of the year starting Tuesday...

Un-be-****ing-lievable...

We're in this situation DESPITE the play out of that position this year. But we haven't locked things up, and these games matter. We want the best option, and BA is very likely it. And this is coming from an adamant anti-BA guy.

BadBobbyJenks
09-23-2008, 01:16 AM
Why are people upset that some of us want to see the best center fielder we have on the roster play?

doublem23
09-23-2008, 07:35 AM
Why are people upset that some of us want to see the best center fielder we have on the roster play?

Because he's not.

tstrike2000
09-23-2008, 07:50 AM
But truth spoken by the majority - 82 so far and going strong - can also leave a permanent footprint on the soul.

I think you've watched your movie a few too many times.

TomBradley72
09-23-2008, 08:10 AM
82!

It's late September with the Sox in first having not played BA much at all this year and yet 82 FOBA's want to see him in the most crucial games of the year starting Tuesday...

Un-be-****ing-lievable...

You have to consider the alternatives. He's more or less winning the "tallest midget award". If we had a solid CF, there wouldn't be a debate. All three alternatives are very mediocre, especially for a contender. The astroturf compounds the issue.

TomBradley72
09-23-2008, 08:14 AM
I'll take my chances that either Swish or Griffey will bust out and have a big series offensively over the chance that BA will make a major difference with his glove

We've been waiting all season for that to happen, what's a few more days? Swish with his <.200 batting average since the All Star break and Griffey with his 1 HR in 113 Abs...makes sense.

FedEx227
09-23-2008, 08:16 AM
A glove is only one defensive tool.

Ask Jerry Owens what the other ones are, he is wondering the same thing himself.

He's improved, he can get it to the cutoff man on only 3 hops now.

palehozenychicty
09-23-2008, 08:34 AM
As someone said earlier, this is the race for the tallest midget. None of the options we roll out there are strong. Anderson hasn't hit consistently in his short MLB stint, Swisher has been awful all year, Griffey's got one foot in the retirement community, etc. Ozzie can put out whatever he wants, but people still thinking that Swisher or Griffey will be major contributors are taking a huge leap of faith.

champagne030
09-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Why are people upset that some of us want to see the best center fielder we have on the roster play?

They're either afraid to admit the truth, drunk, stoned or delusional.

chaerulez
09-23-2008, 08:53 AM
How is Nick Swisher getting votes?

How is Griffey getting votes? He has 1 HR in 113 ABs for the White Sox (a season after he hit 30 so I don't know where his power went and he did hit 15 for the Reds in 350 ABs), and he simply can't play center field anymore.

chaerulez
09-23-2008, 09:03 AM
Also, I pointed this out earlier in the season, we won't give BA a pass on his lack of offensive skills even though he plays superb defense. Yet, the same fans gush over how Uribe saved us at third base. Well BA is having a "Uribe like" year at the plate (small sample size I know) where he's hit 8 HRs in under 200 ABs, so he's shown some pop at the expense of having a low OBP. We were content with Uribe's .300 or lower OBP as long as he hit 20 HRs and played great defense, why can't we take that from BA?

I think it's some sort of counter culture, because BA has garnered so much support, it was only inevitable a portion of the fanbase would backlash against it. I'm not saying play BA because he's a great player, or even good, or even MLB average. I'm saying play him because he's the best option on this team. If Griffey or Wise had the offensive skills of Soriano, I would advocate them in the lineup despite their defense, but they don't. If we had even an average CF like Reed Johnson or David DeJesus I would say play him instead. But we don't have a guy who can hit at least .280 and play at least an average CF.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 10:00 AM
They're either afraid to admit the truth, drunk, stoned or delusional.

Funny, that was my explanation for the large number of FOBA's who have suddenly crawled out of the woodwork...

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 10:01 AM
Also, I pointed this out earlier in the season, we won't give BA a pass on his lack of offensive skills even though he plays superb defense. Yet, the same fans gush over how Uribe saved us at third base. Well BA is having a "Uribe like" year at the plate (small sample size I know) where he's hit 8 HRs in under 200 ABs, so he's shown some pop at the expense of having a low OBP. We were content with Uribe's .300 or lower OBP as long as he hit 20 HRs and played great defense, why can't we take that from BA?

I think it's some sort of counter culture, because BA has garnered so much support, it was only inevitable a portion of the fanbase would backlash against it. I'm not saying play BA because he's a great player, or even good, or even MLB average. I'm saying play him because he's the best option on this team. If Griffey or Wise had the offensive skills of Soriano, I would advocate them in the lineup despite their defense, but they don't. If we had even an average CF like Reed Johnson or David DeJesus I would say play him instead. But we don't have a guy who can hit at least .280 and play at least an average CF.


IF defense>>>>>OF defense

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:01 AM
Funny, that was my explanation for the large number of FOBA's who have suddenly crawled out of the woodwork...
Who do you want in CF voodoo? At this point it's difficult to make an actual argument against Brian Anderson.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:04 AM
IF defense>>>>>OF defense
You can't be serious?

Up the middle defense>>>>>>>>>Corner defense

If Griffey/Swisher were pasting the ball, that'd be one thing. But they are scuffling right now and defense is very important in this series. Javy is a flyball pitcher, Gavin is essentially a flyball pitcher. There's no defensible reason for Griffey to be in CF.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 10:04 AM
Who do you want in CF voodoo? At this point it's difficult to make an actual argument against Brian Anderson.

Like I said earlier, stick with Griffey. 3 RHP and hope he finds the stick he is capable of having. Heck, I'd rather see Swish out there and hope he finds his bat in the final week. I expect Wise in LF for at least 2 of the games with Swish probably getting the third.

I'd rather play players who have a chance to rise to the occasion. Swish and Griffey both fit that bill. Both of them know what it takes to play at playoff levels. Both of them have shown that ability in the past. I'll take my chances.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 10:05 AM
You can't be serious?

Up the middle defense>>>>>>>>>Corner defense

If Griffey/Swisher were pasting the ball, that'd be one thing. But they are scuffling right now and defense is very important in this series. Javy is a flyball pitcher, Gavin is essentially a flyball pitcher. There's no defensible reason for Griffey to be in CF.

We disagree. Leave it at that.

Javy is a strikeout pitcher.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:06 AM
Like I said earlier, stick with Griffey. 3 RHP and hope he finds the stick he is capable of having. Heck, I'd rather see Swish out there and hope he finds his bat in the final week. I expect Wise in LF for at least 2 of the games with Swish probably getting the third.

I'd rather play players who have a chance to rise to the occasion. Swish and Griffey both fit that bill. Both of them know what it takes to play at playoff levels. Both of them have shown that ability in the past. I'll take my chances.
Griffey is a liability defensively, no matter where you put him. If you want to just hand him the job and "hope he finds his bat" -- go right ahead. Play with uncertainties, play with gambles that have little to no chance of paying off.

There is one certainty among the candidates in CF: no one plays CF at the caliber Brian does. No one even comes close.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:07 AM
We disagree. Leave it at that.

Javy is a strikeout pitcher.
Well, that's incorrect. Javy gives up more flyballs than any other kind of batted ball. That = flyball pitcher. Don't really know how you can argue against that.

TomBradley72
09-23-2008, 11:04 AM
Well, that's incorrect. Javy gives up more flyballs than any other kind of batted ball. That = flyball pitcher. Don't really know how you can argue against that.

If you're argument is based on Griffey "magically" finding his stroke after 1 HR in 113 ABs or Swisher "magically" finding his stroke after hitting .194 in 170 ABs since the All Star break...anything is possible. Beyond that BA is hitting .245 vs. RHs this year. Swisher: .227.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 11:25 AM
If you're argument is based on Griffey "magically" finding his stroke after 1 HR in 113 ABs or Swisher "magically" finding his stroke after hitting .194 in 170 ABs since the All Star break...anything is possible. Beyond that BA is hitting .245 vs. RHs this year. Swisher: .227.

Swisher's OPS is 100 points higher against RHP this season, but nice try on the selective statistics to make a case...

asindc
09-23-2008, 11:41 AM
Funny, that was my explanation for the large number of FOBA's who have suddenly crawled out of the woodwork...

Voodoo, I'm not even close to being a FOBA, but I have to admit I like the idea of BA starting in CF for these 3 games. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the stories about the Humpdome's ghosts and gobblins, but a recognition of the type of offensive team Minny is.

Minny is a situational/gap hitting team with relatively little power. Given such, being able to cover more of the field is more important to me than whatever better numbers Jr. might be able to produce over BA. I agree that BA is still generally clueless at the plate, but if he can prevent 3-4 balls from falling in as doubles or triples, I'm willing to put up with it in this very short term.

If Minny's offense was more like the Sox, then I would say it doesn't matter as much, since you can position OFs with more effectiveness against our team than theirs. But I would rather put our best defense behind our pitching for this series and put more pressure on their young pitching to hold our offense down.

TomBradley72
09-23-2008, 12:00 PM
Swisher's OPS is 100 points higher against RHP this season, but nice try on the selective statistics to make a case...

Fair enough...but I'm giving Swish the benefit of using the entire season..not his "NL Pitcher" level hitting of the 2nd half.

champagne030
09-23-2008, 12:27 PM
Fair enough...but I'm giving Swish the benefit of using the entire season..not his "NL Pitcher" level hitting of the 2nd half.

Screw the benefit of the doubt. Captain Morgan is hitting a .190 on the road for the whole ****ing year. I'll pass on his substandard defense and abysmal offense.

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 02:38 PM
Swisher's nice try on the selective statistics to make a case...

Brian Anderson = destroyer of worlds in Metrodome this year.

.500 ba, 1375 OPS.

chaerulez
09-23-2008, 02:52 PM
IF defense>>>>>OF defense

Generally that's true, LF and RF are two of the least important outfield positions. But 3B isn't that high up either. And CF is certainly more important than 3B.

Foulke You
09-23-2008, 03:12 PM
Brian Anderson = destroyer of worlds in Metrodome this year.

.500 ba, 1375 OPS.
Pretty small sample size. A whole 4 for 8. This is what? 2 games? I wouldn't declare him a Twins killer based on that.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 03:22 PM
Generally that's true, LF and RF are two of the least important outfield positions. But 3B isn't that high up either. And CF is certainly more important than 3B.

I disagree simply based on number of chances per game if nothing else. Add in that 3B has to both deal with screaming liners and sharp grounders that might be doubles and bunts that might be hits and almost as much ground to cover on popups/short flyballs/foul pops as CF does and IMO, 3B is more important defensively than CF.

I know... I know... it's unconventional, sort of like not wanting to suddenly change things up last minute. I'd give the guys who got us here a chance to close it out rather than put a year long bench warmer in the game in the most crucial series of the year, but you folks think and vote how you want.

I'd rather have Swisher out there than BA, but I expect Griffey at least two games.

I have nothing against BA as a late inning defensive substitute. In fact I prefer it. I just want the majority of the AB to go to guys who actually have a history during their career of you know... hitting the baseball or at least making contact...

sox1970
09-23-2008, 03:40 PM
No surprise here...Griffey starts tonight.

Cabrera, Pierzynski, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Wise, Uribe

southsideirish71
09-23-2008, 03:51 PM
No surprise here...Griffey starts tonight.

Cabrera, Pierzynski, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Wise, Uribe

Ozzie is getting a serious case of Manuelitis.

Griffey cant hit, and cant run. So lets trot him out in a dome with a big OF. Thats a recipe for success.

Wise has provided a spark in the 2 hole. So lets run him away, so we can inject some AJ in there.

Unreal.

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 04:05 PM
we NEED Brian Anderson

Gammons Peter
09-23-2008, 04:11 PM
So lets trot him out in a dome with a big OF.


whats so big about it? 408 in cf? wow a whole 8 feet deeper than the cell

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 04:14 PM
whats so big about it? 408 in cf? wow a whole 8 feet deeper than the cell

Geometry will show that means alot more coverable ground, add that to the faster turf over natural grass, and you gots a situation.

nug0hs
09-23-2008, 04:20 PM
Owens definitely starts in center tonight. In his short career he is batting .600 vs. Baker (3 for 5 w/2 K). Wise and Anderson are both 0fer vs. Baker. I guarantee you Owens starts tonight.

kittle42
09-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm still shocked at the level of insanity around here as it relates to Anderson. Ask 30 managers of major league ballclubs whom they would play tonight, and in this series generally, in CF given the importance of the series and the machups with pitching, and I'm guessing all 30 of them might say Griffey. Swisher would likely come in second. As voodoo said, you know, actually playing guys who in their careers have actually shown an ability to hit the ball is preferable at this juncture.

JB98
09-23-2008, 04:34 PM
we NEED Brian Anderson

Why? We've gotten this far with him as the fourth outfielder. Why change now?

kittle42
09-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Why? We've gotten this far with him as the fourth outfielder. Why change now?

Had he started every game, the Sox would already have 100 wins. He saves at least 5 runs per game with his defense, as teams purposely try to hit the ball away from him and thus mess up their swings.

doublem23
09-23-2008, 04:39 PM
we NEED Brian Anderson

... to ride the pine.

Yes, I agree. :cool:

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 04:44 PM
I'm still shocked at the level of insanity around here

Yes, because you - and you only - have a monopoly on sanity.

(Between you, jabrch and delben91 clearly having cornered the market on *the* right way of being/doing, in general, it's amazing how the rest of us are able to survive. :rolleyes:)


Ask 30 managers of major league ballclubs whom they would play tonight, and in this series generally, in CF


...Starting with Griffey's two previous managers who haven't played him in CF since 2006...

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 04:48 PM
Why? We've gotten this far with him as the fourth outfielder. Why change now?

Had he started every game, the Sox would already have 100 wins. He saves at least 5 runs per game with his defense, as teams purposely try to hit the ball away from him and thus mess up their swings.

... to ride the pine.

Yes, I agree. :cool:

We've gotten this far DESPITE him as the 4th OF. We'd be setting the playoff rotation if he had replaced some of the ****ty CF we've been getting. The pitchers would probably have less wear on their arms too.

In any case, Brian should play in any hard to defend outfield. Whether its because its HUGE like Detroit or SafeCo or fast like turf.

As has been mentioned many times, Brian has produced in limited time what the starters have produced all season. I think its alot more likely that the dude doing well in limited time is going to perform better than the dudes sucking it up all ****ing year long.

The fact of the matter is that if Brian changed his last name to anything but ANDERSON this whole board would be unanimous in its demand to management to play Brian X!!!!

kittle42
09-23-2008, 04:50 PM
Yes, because you - and you only - have a monopoly on sanity.

(Between you, jabrch and delben91 clearly having cornered the market on *the* right way of being/doing in general, it's amazing how the rest of us are able to survive. :rolleyes:)

I have no problem with people telling me I'm wrong and expressing a different opinion. They can call me insane, too, if they want. Despite my oft condescending tone, I do not pretend to be the arbiter of all that is right and wrong in baseball.

...Starting with Griffey's two previous managers who haven't played in him in CF since 2006...

Yes, well, I am saying that they, if presented with the same situation and personnel the Sox have right now, would play Griffey (or at least Swisher) in CF. I am not talking about what they would do with the 2006, 2007 or 2008 Reds.

sox1970
09-23-2008, 04:57 PM
I'm not an Anderson supporter, but I do think he should start in the Metrodome. We'll see if Griffey turns any singles into doubles or triples.

Best case scenario, Sox get out to a big lead early, and they put Anderson in around the 7th inning.

kittle42
09-23-2008, 04:57 PM
Best case scenario, Sox get out to a big lead early, and they put Anderson in around the 7th inning.

That would be awesome!

JB98
09-23-2008, 05:06 PM
I'm not an Anderson supporter, but I do think he should start in the Metrodome. We'll see if Griffey turns any singles into doubles or triples.

Best case scenario, Sox get out to a big lead early, and they put Anderson in around the 7th inning.

I still think Griffey should be in LF, with Wise in CF. But again, we've gotten this far doing it this way....

Daver
09-23-2008, 05:35 PM
I still think Griffey should be in LF, with Wise in CF. But again, we've gotten this far doing it this way....

Griffey has almost never played left, and Dwayne Wise has no business ever playing center feild, the only reason he does is because Ozzie Guillen is an idiot.

JB98
09-23-2008, 05:40 PM
Griffey has almost never played left, and Dwayne Wise has no business ever playing center feild, the only reason he does is because Ozzie Guillen is an idiot.

I think Wise has played better in CF than several others the Sox have trotted out there over the course of the last several years, including Griffey.

If Griffey can play CF, he can surely play LF.

But it isn't going to happen, so it isn't really worth debating.

Jerome
09-23-2008, 05:42 PM
BA

if it was the Cell I could live with Griffey/Swisher but I want as much range as possible out there in that big OF

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 05:43 PM
we NEED Brian Anderson

...as a late inning defensive substitution. Even your signature supports that concept...

chisoxfanatic
09-23-2008, 05:45 PM
Can we have the Griffey from Little Big League steal a home run from Justin Morneau tonight?

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 05:49 PM
We've gotten this far DESPITE him as the 4th OF. We'd be setting the playoff rotation if he had replaced some of the ****ty CF we've been getting. The pitchers would probably have less wear on their arms too.

In any case, Brian should play in any hard to defend outfield. Whether its because its HUGE like Detroit or SafeCo or fast like turf.

As has been mentioned many times, Brian has produced in limited time what the starters have produced all season. I think its alot more likely that the dude doing well in limited time is going to perform better than the dudes sucking it up all ****ing year long.

The fact of the matter is that if Brian changed his last name to anything but ANDERSON this whole board would be unanimous in its demand to management to play Brian X!!!!

Look, according to the very stats you've collected this season if the Sox had started BA in CF the entire season they'd have 82 wins and be 2 full games behind the Twinkies right now ((20/38) * 156 = 82). Now since BA wouldn't have started every game and since the Sox are markedly better when he doesn't start, they might actually be tied with the Twinkies, but that's about as good as it would get.

You're the one collecting the stats, at least have the guts to stand up and acknowledge what they mean...

Daver
09-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Look, according to the very stats you've collected this season if the Sox had started BA in CF the entire season they'd have 82 wins and be 2 full games behind the Twinkies right now ((20/38) * 156 = 82). Now since BA wouldn't have started every game and since the Sox are markedly better when he doesn't start, they might actually be tied with the Twinkies, but that's about as good as it would get.

You're the one collecting the stats, at least have the guts to stand up and acknowledge what they mean...

He also only starts against the pitching he has historically struggled the most against, which skews any projection you are making, at that point what the hell are the projections worth?

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Look, according to the very stats you've collected this season if the Sox had started BA in CF the entire season they'd have 82 wins and be 2 full games behind the Twinkies right now ((20/38) * 156 = 82). Now since BA wouldn't have started every game and since the Sox are markedly better when he doesn't start, they might actually be tied with the Twinkies, but that's about as good as it would get.

You're the one collecting the stats, at least have the guts to stand up and acknowledge what they mean...

You've told me about a million times that my statistics are worthless.

The stats don't show when Ozzie is a moron and pulls BA if he does start or if BA only gets to start Sunday lineup special games. It also doesn't show that if he was the STARTER you could sit him against the pitchers that he doesn't do well against (you know, like what is done with every other player on the team) in order to rest him.

There are tons of situations the stats don't accurately show, some against the BA argument, some for the BA argument.

The clearest stat is when BA doesn't play AT all. Which is when the Sox DON'T WIN

Know BA, Know winning. NO BA, NO WINNING.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 06:05 PM
You've told me about a million times that my statistics are worthless.

The stats don't show when Ozzie is a moron and pulls BA if he does start or if BA only gets to start Sunday lineup special games. It also doesn't show that if he was the STARTER you could sit him against the pitchers that he doesn't do well against (you know, like what is done with every other player on the team) in order to rest him.

There are tons of situations the stats don't accurately show, some against the BA argument, some for the BA argument.

The clearest stat is when BA doesn't play AT all. Which is when the Sox DON'T WIN

Know BA, Know winning. NO BA, NO WINNING.

Oh I see, the stats only matter when they favor BA... nevermind then...:rolleyes:

Lefty34
09-23-2008, 06:08 PM
Griffey has almost never played left, and Dwayne Wise has no business ever playing center feild, the only reason he does is because Ozzie Guillen is an idiot.

Neither does the 38-year old, slow, heavy Griffey, and that troller earlier helped us see how much of a piece of crap Swisher is both as a player and a person. That leaves Anderson, who is probably the best defensive CF on the Sox right now, and with the size of the ball park and the turf, he is the right choice for CF.

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Oh I see, the stats only matter when they favor BA... nevermind then...:rolleyes:

How about we let BA start the next 3 games and I'll take whatever percentage that creates from him "starting" and if its still lower than the current winning percentage i will shut up about BA forever.

We both know, with how limited BA's starts are, that each individual start changes its percentage a TON. But, over the course of the season, when BA doesn't play, the Sox don't win. That has nothing to do with "stats only mattering when they favor BA"

If you are advocating starting someone else for the first inning and then immediately replacing him with BA, to truly take advantage of the stats, I'm all with you. In fact, I'm sure the percentages would go up because whoever BA replaced wouldn't be able to come back in the game.

Daver
09-23-2008, 06:22 PM
Neither does the 38-year old, slow, heavy Griffey, and that troller earlier helped us see how much of a piece of crap Swisher is both as a player and a person. That leaves Anderson, who is probably the best defensive CF on the Sox right now, and with the size of the ball park and the turf, he is the right choice for CF.

I'd take Griffey over Wise, at least he can read the ball off the bat. I offered no opinion on Swisher or Anderson.

Lefty34
09-23-2008, 06:26 PM
I'd take Griffey over Wise, at least he can read the ball off the bat. I offered no opinion on Swisher or Anderson.

I know you didn't, I was talking about the trolling Reds fan. I still think that BA is the best defender in CF, but obviously his offense is lacking.

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 06:33 PM
He also only starts against the pitching he has historically struggled the most against, which skews any projection you are making, at that point what the hell are the projections worth?

Well he's had close to 100 AB against RHP this season and has posted a .247 BA with an OBP under .300 and an OPS of .635. If those are the guys he historically hits better, they seem to be catching up to him.

How about we let BA start the next 3 games and I'll take whatever percentage that creates from him "starting" and if its still lower than the current winning percentage i will shut up about BA forever.

We both know, with how limited BA's starts are, that each individual start changes its percentage a TON. But, over the course of the season, when BA doesn't play, the Sox don't win. That has nothing to do with "stats only mattering when they favor BA"

If you are advocating starting someone else for the first inning and then immediately replacing him with BA, to truly take advantage of the stats, I'm all with you. In fact, I'm sure the percentages would go up because whoever BA replaced wouldn't be able to come back in the game.

Here's a stat for your signature. I just calculated it. I admit, it was a quick count, so I might be off by one or two, but here goes...

With BA playing but having zero plate appearances the Sox are 28-4!

I think that concludes the discussion of whether BA should be the starting CF in the most crucial series of the year...

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 06:36 PM
I know you didn't, I was talking about the trolling Reds fan. I still think that BA is the best defender in CF, but obviously his offense is lacking.

yeah, BA's line is only .262/.295/.571/.867 since the all-star break. The other guys we're talking about have done MUCH better, right?

It's Dankerific
09-23-2008, 06:40 PM
Here's a stat for your signature. I just calculated it. I admit, it was a quick count, so I might be off by one or two, but here goes...

With BA playing but having zero plate appearances the Sox are 28-4!

I think that concludes the discussion of whether BA should be the starting CF in the most crucial series of the year...

Yeah, who wants BA when if he has a plate appearance the sox are 38-30
(if your math is right).

Now, following the Voodoo Projection formula :((38/60) * 156 = 87). Showing we'd be a full game better, or that much closer to clinching. The math is in, its clear, (thanks for the help with that), BA = winning. Most important series of the year, BA better play.

Daver
09-23-2008, 06:45 PM
Well he's had close to 100 AB against RHP this season and has posted a .247 BA with an OBP under .300 and an OPS of .635. If those are the guys he historically hits better, they seem to be catching up to him.




Comparing a spot starter against someone that plays on a regular basis is comparing apples to coconuts, and you know it.

You can do better than this can't you?

voodoochile
09-23-2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah, who wants BA when if he has a plate appearance the sox are 38-30
(if your math is right).

Now, following the Voodoo Projection formula :((38/60) * 156 = 87). Showing we'd be a full game better, or that much closer to clinching. The math is in, its clear, (thanks for the help with that), BA = winning. Most important series of the year, BA better play.

And again as a late inning substitute, I have no problem with that...

TomBradley72
09-23-2008, 07:04 PM
This is the worst managerial decision I can remember going into a big game. A .248 average, .345 slugging....and the worst overall defense of ANY starting CF in the major leagues. For all the Griffey advocates...I ask if anyone can name a starting CF for a .500+ team who is WORSE than Griffey on defense.

I hope I've been wrong in this whole discussion...because usually the baseball Gods make sure the ball finds (or whizzes by) a guy in this situation.

FarWestChicago
09-23-2008, 07:47 PM
This is the worst managerial decision I can remember going into a big game.You FOBA's are so prone to completely absurd hyperbole. You are always good for a laugh. :happyguy:

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 07:57 PM
, the only reason he does is because Ozzie Guillen is an idiot.

You mean Ozzie is not a genius/fearless leader of mangs???!!

:thud:


.

Tragg
09-23-2008, 08:37 PM
Why? We've gotten this far with him as the fourth outfielder. Why change now? Because defense is absolutely critical in the concrete dome and in this series right now. And he's been hitting pretty well.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2008, 09:25 PM
You FOBA's are so prone to completely absurd hyperbole. You are always good for a laugh. :happyguy:

It's only hyperbole when an FOBA does it. Obviously this isn't hyperbole:

Had he started every game, the Sox would already have 100 wins. He saves at least 5 runs per game with his defense, as teams purposely try to hit the ball away from him and thus mess up their swings.

:tongue:

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 09:34 PM
Well lessi:

1. Griffey DP kills a Sox rally.

2. Griffey's limited range in the OF opens door for a back-breaking Twins rally.


Not to let Big-Game Javy or the rest of the Walkerballers off the hook.... But in pennant pressure-cookers such as this one, a couple of no-out (mis)plays here and there can absolutely turn the proverbial tide one way or the other just.like.that.

Simply and indesputably put: in no small part thanks to KGJ, this game is a Twinkie blow-out - instead of a close, winnable game.

:puking::puking:

Lefty34
09-23-2008, 09:42 PM
You FOBA's are so prone to completely absurd hyperbole. You are always good for a laugh. :happyguy:

That means next to nothing when you think about and your attention span is longer than 1 second. So because one or two people made an off the cuff statement that is more than likely completely false, you can make a blanketing statement about a whole group of people? Not every person has made a bad argument about BA playing, in fact most of them were well founded. Is it just hyperbole because some people can't get passed the idea of having an actual defender in CF as opposed to someone who is supposed to produce constantly? Specifically, when we are playing a critical series in a dome that ranks 15th in the MLB in Park Factor for doubles? Especially compared with the postage stamp of a field we play on where you might be able to get away with sub-par defense.

And aren't we all supposed to be about inclusion on this forum as opposed to exclusion? Frankly I'm hurt at being labeled.

kittle42
09-23-2008, 09:54 PM
It's only hyperbole when an FOBA does it. Obviously this isn't hyperbole:



:tongue:

It's parody. Or mocking.

Madscout
09-23-2008, 10:40 PM
It's Dankerific says it best.

With Brian Anderson starting in CF : 20-18
With Brian Anderson just IN the game : 66-34
With ANY one else starting in CF : 65-49
With NO Brian Anderson ANYWHERE : 18-33

and last few games on the road with Griffey starting in CF 0-5

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 10:52 PM
It's Dankerific says it best.

With Brian Anderson starting in CF : 20-18
With Brian Anderson just IN the game : 66-34
With ANY one else starting in CF : 65-49
With NO Brian Anderson ANYWHERE : 18-33

and last few games on the road with Griffey starting in CF 0-5

Enough with the pointless staturbation ^

Open the eyes, watch a few games and recognise the obvious:

1) Anderson improves the team defensively
2) Anderson improves the team offensively (the way Swisher and Junior have been hitting since ASB).

Griffey is a DH, ideally. And if he's such a "natural", he'll adapt to LF just fine - that is, if you absolutely must play him in the field.

JB98
09-23-2008, 10:53 PM
Because defense is absolutely critical in the concrete dome and in this series right now. And he's been hitting pretty well.

Wise is hitting pretty well too. And you hate his guts.

I voted Wise for CF in this poll, for the record.

kittle42
09-23-2008, 11:21 PM
Enough with the pointless staturbation ^

Open the eyes, watch a few games and recognise the obvious:

1) Anderson improves the team defensively
2) Anderson improves the team offensively (the way Swisher and Junior have been hitting since ASB).

1. Yes.

2. No, or, at best, extraordinarily questionable.

drewcifer
09-23-2008, 11:24 PM
And that will undoubtedly be the choice.

In the middle of a huge pennant race and people still can't let the Anderson thing go.

He hasn't started all year. He won't start now. Why? He doesn't give this team the best chance to win, at least according to the manager.

120 people can. 67 can't (so far).

"People".

Daver
09-23-2008, 11:25 PM
Wise is hitting pretty well too. And you hate his guts.

I voted Wise for CF in this poll, for the record.

You really can never have too many outfielders that would be better off wearing their glove on their head. The Sox only have two, time to see what is available via trade.

BIGWHITEsox
09-23-2008, 11:35 PM
BRIAN ANDERSON

without a doubt.


or maybe swisher can start hitting again? that'd be cool, too.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 12:23 AM
1. Yes.

2. No, or, at best, extraordinarily questionable.

1. And as you saw today with Griffey turning an out (albeit a tough one) into a "triple"... defense is important. Especially when Vazquez is on the mound in a big road game... presto: big Twinkie inning ensued that TKO'd the Sox.

2. Lesse: Anderson has outproduced Swisher since ASB; Greg Walker has been raving about his recent improvement in plate coverage, which coincides with what many of us have been seeing even during his limited AB (not playing hurts timing in young players).

Sadly: Ozzie being a petty, self-centered person that he is, at this point I don't think he plays Anderson if only because if Brian succeeds but the team, heaven forbid, comes up juuuust short of Postseason, Ozzie would be catching hell for not having played our 1st rounder more during Swisher's hellacious slumps.


.

kittle42
09-24-2008, 12:42 AM
Sadly: Ozzie being a petty, self-centered person that he is, at this point I don't think he plays Anderson if only because if Brian succeeds but the team, heaven forbid, comes up juuuust short of Postseason, Ozzie would be catching hell for not having played our 1st rounder more during Swisher's hellacious slumps.

That's a bit of a stretch. Was anyone giving him hell for not playing Uribe while Crede was hitting .110 during his "comeback?"

chaerulez
09-24-2008, 01:01 AM
At least Griffey hit a second HR in what his 138th at bat?

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:06 AM
That's a bit of a stretch. Was anyone giving him hell for not playing Uribe while Crede was hitting .110 during his "comeback?"

Can you see the main difference between the two situations?

It dares not say its name. :redneck

TomBradley72
09-24-2008, 07:01 AM
You FOBA's are so prone to completely absurd hyperbole. You are always good for a laugh. :happyguy:

Still laughing?

Ken "I'm Now Willie May w/the Mets" Griffey helped open the flood gates. And we're now much more at risk for blowing the lead than we were 24 hours ago.

FOBA and proud of it. I value defense over aging "old timer game" CFs who can hit 2 HR in 120 ABs.

WhiteSoxBlog
09-24-2008, 07:32 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/2884957866_81b2ce6d64_o.jpg

Pale Hose 8 (http://palehose8.blogspot.com/) FTW. Or maybe FTL :(:

2906
09-24-2008, 07:52 AM
That's a bit of a stretch. Was anyone giving him hell for not playing Uribe while Crede was hitting .110 during his "comeback?"

It's not only a bit of a stretch, it's downright dumb.

2906
09-24-2008, 07:53 AM
Still laughing?

Ken "I'm Now Willie May w/the Mets" Griffey helped open the flood gates. And we're now much more at risk for blowing the lead than we were 24 hours ago.

FOBA and proud of it. I value defense over aging "old timer game" CFs who can hit 2 HR in 120 ABs.

The pitching lost that game. I'm glad when Griffey couldn't come up with the ball on that dive it made you happy though.

Lefty34
09-24-2008, 09:26 AM
The pitching lost that game. I'm glad when Griffey couldn't come up with the ball on that dive it made you happy though.

But you see that's the thing, he had to dive. Someone who is quicker (Anderson), has more acceleration (Anderson) and who is not 38 (Anderson) probably would have been able to get to the ball on the fly and make the putout.

2906
09-24-2008, 09:31 AM
But you see that's the thing, he had to dive. Someone who is quicker (Anderson), has more acceleration (Anderson) and who is not 38 (Anderson) probably would have been able to get to the ball on the fly and make the putout.

Maybe. You don't know it for sure, neither do I, neither does anyone here.

It was a 9-3 game, it was all about lack of pitching. Kubel's two HR's and Young's HR would've been enough to win the game on their own.

NLaloosh
09-24-2008, 10:43 AM
I say play Griffey in the first game and he'll probably knock in 3 runs. And, he'll cost you a few in the OF.

Tragg
09-24-2008, 11:01 AM
Wise is hitting pretty well too. And you hate his guts.

I voted Wise for CF in this poll, for the record.
But he doesn't play great defense.
I don't hate his guts - I get nervous when Ozzie falls in love with mediocre veterans - 2007 ball. But for now, play Wise in left.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:08 PM
...and if Ozzie starts Anderson and Brian FAILS, while the team, heaven forbid, barely misses out on Postseason... Then Ozzie gets ripped by the "always dance with the girl that brung you to the prom" crowd for not playing Swish, Griff, etc.

So in the grand tradition of ass-covering managing/hedging.... Ozzie decides to take his chances on Anderson (who already arguably lost out on key development thanks to Ozzie, in the first place) never panning out, and instead puts his reputation in the hands of Kenny's veteran acquisitions.

Emphasis on "Kenny's".


.

Bob G
09-24-2008, 01:21 PM
This really shouldn't be a topic for debate - Griffey is not a CF - period, end of story. This is obvious to anyone who watches the games and if someone can't accept that fact they are in denial. When KW traded for him many Reds fans were saying the same thing.

I have no problem with Griffey as a DH or PH but he should not be in the outfield - especially in a place like the crapdome.

The triple probably didn't cost us the game last night but it helped open the flood gates and we just might be in a tight game tonight or tomorrow where one play can make the difference. If Ozzie doesn't want to play BA then put Owens in there but no more Griffey in CF!!!

Daver
09-24-2008, 02:37 PM
Owens is a worse outfielder than Griffey.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 02:40 PM
Owens is a worse outfielder than Griffey.

So if Griffey > Wise, Owens... and such a great, instinctive "natural" OF who quickly adapted to RF....

Put him in LF, put Anderson in CF - and everyone's happy.

kittle42
09-24-2008, 02:57 PM
Put him in LF, put Anderson in CF - and everyone's happy.

Including the opposition's starting pitcher.

voodoochile
09-24-2008, 03:32 PM
Including the opposition's starting pitcher.

Actually, I'm kinda hoping to see Swish in LF tonight. Just got a feeling. I can't believe OG will bench KGJ after he finally connected last night.

sox1970
09-24-2008, 03:37 PM
Lineup tonight per Score:

Wise, Cabrera, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Pierzynski, Uribe

Yes, Griffey will suck again.

2906
09-24-2008, 03:41 PM
Lineup tonight per Score:

Wise, Cabrera, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Pierzynski, Uribe

Yes, Griffey will suck again.

Hmmm ... the biggest news there is Cabrera out of the leadoff spot. And Pierzynski down to 8th. With one exception it's left-right-left-right.

Madscout
09-24-2008, 03:48 PM
Including the opposition's starting pitcher.
Also including our starting pitcher. Cuts both ways, my friend.

kittle42
09-24-2008, 03:51 PM
Also including our starting pitcher. Cuts both ways, my friend.

Good point!

kittle42
09-24-2008, 03:51 PM
Lineup tonight per Score:

Wise, Cabrera, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Pierzynski, Uribe

Yes, Griffey will suck again.

This lineup strikes fear into the heart of, well, no one.

Jaffar
09-24-2008, 03:57 PM
This lineup strikes fear into the heart of, well, no one.

It scares the **** out of me!

FielderJones
09-24-2008, 03:59 PM
Yes, Griffey will suck again.

Can't wait to see what massť shot off Punto's bat will skip past Griffey on that billiard table surface for extra bases.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 04:23 PM
Lineup tonight per Score:

Wise, Cabrera, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Pierzynski, Uribe

Yes, Griffey will suck again.

Well, he doesn't have to suck, does he?

I hope Griff goes 3 for 4 with 5 RBI tonight.

Doesn't change the fact that I'd rather see him in LF (if you can play CF-RF, you can play LF) than in CF.

chisoxfanatic
09-24-2008, 04:25 PM
Lineup tonight per Score:

Wise, Cabrera, Dye, Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Ramirez, Pierzynski, Uribe

Yes, Griffey will suck again.
Well, to be fair, Buehrle is a ground ball pitcher. That doesn't mean Griffey won't be tested tonight; but, this is the best game to get Griffey in there. Last night, however, should've been BA's night.

RCWHITESOX
09-24-2008, 04:39 PM
And that will undoubtedly be the choice.

In the middle of a huge pennant race and people still can't let the Anderson thing go.

He hasn't started all year. He won't start now. Why? He doesn't give this team the best chance to win, at least according to the manager.

Could not have said it better. I would rather have Jim Landis sight unseen!

southsideirish71
09-24-2008, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by kittle42 http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2048953#post2048953)
And that will undoubtedly be the choice.

In the middle of a huge pennant race and people still can't let the Anderson thing go.

He hasn't started all year. He won't start now. Why? He doesn't give this team the best chance to win, at least according to the manager
.

Is this the same manager who would of had Owens in LF and Quentin on the bench to start this season. Thank the baseball gods for nixing that one.

Chicken Dinner
09-24-2008, 04:52 PM
Ozzie is addicted to that lefty/righty match up thing.

2906
09-24-2008, 05:09 PM
.

Is this the same manager who would of had Owens in LF and Quentin on the bench to start this season. Thank the baseball gods for nixing that one.

They only would have had Quentin on the bench because he wasn't healthy coming into spring training. I'm sure you remember the articles back in February and March.

Tragg
09-24-2008, 07:31 PM
...and if Ozzie starts Anderson and Brian FAILS, while the team, heaven forbid, barely misses out on Postseason... .
There's an extreme little chance that he fails. Failing for him would be playing poor D. i think it's likely he'll deliver offensively no worse than most of these guys....but the reason to play him is D.
This is a pointless discussion because Ozzie won't play him.

Tragg
09-24-2008, 07:34 PM
They only would have had Quentin on the bench because he wasn't healthy coming into spring training. I'm sure you remember the articles back in February and March.
No, Ozzie had a healthy Quentin pencilled in for AAA. Quentin was healthy the last week of Spring, and Ozzie's keen eye for talent was Owens-Ramirez -Quentin-Anderson (BA on the ml team because of D). At 2nd, Ozzie had it Uribe-Ramirez.
He put the hapless Owens unabated at CF for the last 6 weeks of the season last year... and after producing a.320 obp with no power, Ozzie pencilled him in for a starting spot. he ran Sweeney off after 3 weeks and Anderson is always a platoon.
You could take a random fan out of the stands and they could evaluate talent better than Guillen.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 09:39 PM
...

Yesterday was Griffey's turn to kill whatever modest hope Sox had of winning.

Today Wise decides "to hell with it: I have hit a grandslam before, how hard can it be? So let's swing real slugger-like at pitches chest high & away..."

....in the process stranding 5 critical baserunners just between two AB alone...


Ozzie & Greg Walker must be beaming with pride.

2906
09-24-2008, 09:45 PM
No, Ozzie had a healthy Quentin pencilled in for AAA. Quentin was healthy the last week of Spring, and Ozzie's keen eye for talent was Owens-Ramirez -Quentin-Anderson (BA on the ml team because of D). At 2nd, Ozzie had it Uribe-Ramirez.
He put the hapless Owens unabated at CF for the last 6 weeks of the season last year... and after producing a.320 obp with no power, Ozzie pencilled him in for a starting spot. he ran Sweeney off after 3 weeks and Anderson is always a platoon.
You could take a random fan out of the stands and they could evaluate talent better than Guillen.

Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about.

I was down there in Tucson for 3 weeks, from late Feb. to early March.

I talked to Cora and Williams, in addition to following all the articles that were published.

Here's what the deal was ... they wanted a lead off hitter as everyone knows. The best they had coming in was Owens so they had him penciled in, emphasis on penciled. That means not in pen.

They did not know if Quentin would be healthy to start the season. They had him ticketed for the DL, not AAA, for the first month of the season due to the off season shoulder surgery.

Further, all the plans changed on 2/28 when Owens pulled his groin. That's when Swisher got penciled into CF full time. Before that, per Cora, he was going to play a bit in CF, a bit in LF, help at 1B. A jack of all trades guy and he was also the Plan B for LF if Carlos wasn't healthy.

Quentin was shut down halfway thru spring training due to him trying too hard to come back too quickly. Then he relaxed, healed up a bit, and you saw what you saw in the 3rd game of the season.

It was all based on health. If you think Quentin was acquired to sit on the bench or play in AAA, think again because you're dead wrong.

It was all predicated on the player(s) health and when Quentin proved he was healthy he was in the lineup.

Anything else you'd like to know, or do you prefer to dabble in more incorrect speculation regarding 2008?

2906
09-24-2008, 09:47 PM
No, Ozzie had a healthy Quentin pencilled in for AAA. Quentin was healthy the last week of Spring, and Ozzie's keen eye for talent was Owens-Ramirez -Quentin-Anderson (BA on the ml team because of D). At 2nd, Ozzie had it Uribe-Ramirez.
He put the hapless Owens unabated at CF for the last 6 weeks of the season last year... and after producing a.320 obp with no power, Ozzie pencilled him in for a starting spot. he ran Sweeney off after 3 weeks and Anderson is always a platoon.
You could take a random fan out of the stands and they could evaluate talent better than Guillen.

To further elaborate, Owens was far from healthy the last week of spring.

Try again, except maybe next time get your facts straight.

TomBradley72
09-24-2008, 09:58 PM
Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about.

I was down there in Tucson for 3 weeks, from late Feb. to early March.

I talked to Cora and Williams, in addition to following all the articles that were published.

Here's what the deal was ... they wanted a lead off hitter as everyone knows. The best they had coming in was Owens so they had him penciled in, emphasis on penciled. That means not in pen.

They did not know if Quentin would be healthy to start the season. They had him ticketed for the DL, not AAA, for the first month of the season due to the off season shoulder surgery.

Further, all the plans changed on 2/28 when Owens pulled his groin. That's when Swisher got penciled into CF full time. Before that, per Cora, he was going to play a bit in CF, a bit in LF, help at 1B. A jack of all trades guy and he was also the Plan B for LF if Carlos wasn't healthy.

Quentin was shut down halfway thru spring training due to him trying too hard to come back too quickly. Then he relaxed, healed up a bit, and you saw what you saw in the 3rd game of the season.

It was all based on health. If you think Quentin was acquired to sit on the bench or play in AAA, think again because you're dead wrong.

It was all predicated on the player(s) health and when Quentin proved he was healthy he was in the lineup.

Anything else you'd like to know, or do you prefer to dabble in more incorrect speculation regarding 2008?

Thanks for posting this. We've had to read about 1,000,000 posts with the same refrain all season about how dumb Ozzie/KW are because they were going to pick Owens over Quentin.

champagne030
09-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about.

I was down there in Tucson for 3 weeks, from late Feb. to early March.

I talked to Cora and Williams, in addition to following all the articles that were published.

Here's what the deal was ... they wanted a lead off hitter as everyone knows. The best they had coming in was Owens so they had him penciled in, emphasis on penciled. That means not in pen.

They did not know if Quentin would be healthy to start the season. They had him ticketed for the DL, not AAA, for the first month of the season due to the off season shoulder surgery.

Further, all the plans changed on 2/28 when Owens pulled his groin. That's when Swisher got penciled into CF full time. Before that, per Cora, he was going to play a bit in CF, a bit in LF, help at 1B. A jack of all trades guy and he was also the Plan B for LF if Carlos wasn't healthy.

Quentin was shut down halfway thru spring training due to him trying too hard to come back too quickly. Then he relaxed, healed up a bit, and you saw what you saw in the 3rd game of the season.

It was all based on health. If you think Quentin was acquired to sit on the bench or play in AAA, think again because you're dead wrong.

It was all predicated on the player(s) health and when Quentin proved he was healthy he was in the lineup.

Anything else you'd like to know, or do you prefer to dabble in more incorrect speculation regarding 2008?

Relaxed and healed up a bit? Holy **** is that a pile of ****. I, too, talked to Williams. This was the last week of ST in 2006. Brian Anderson was going to be the "everyday" CF. He began to be platooned on day 2. Kenneth can give Oswaldo the players, but it's Oswaldo who determines who plays.

Go ahead and continue dabbling in more bull**** speculation regarding 2008.

2906
09-24-2008, 10:36 PM
Relaxed and healed up a bit? Holy **** is that a pile of ****. I, too, talked to Williams. This was the last week of ST in 2006. Brian Anderson was going to be the "everyday" CF. He began to be platooned on day 2. Kenneth can give Oswaldo the players, but it's Oswaldo who determines who plays.

Go ahead and continue dabbling in more bull**** speculation regarding 2008.

Great. Another one who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Can you read? This was about spring training two thousand and eight, as in 2008.

I didn't say anything about 2006.

Don't post if you can't keep up with the topic.

champagne030
09-24-2008, 11:13 PM
Great. Another one who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Can you read? This was about spring training two thousand and eight, as in 2008.

I didn't say anything about 2006.

Don't post if you can't keep up with the topic.

Reading comprehension is a skill.

I don't give a **** what KW or JC said this past spring. Oswaldo is the one who makes the lineup. They all talk out of one side of their mouth and **** out the other. Take the time to understand the writing and you'll realize it doesn't matter if it's 2006 or 2008.

Anyway, I cannot help it if you take every word KW says as gospel.

Feel free to go back to la la land.......

2906
09-24-2008, 11:17 PM
Reading comprehension is a skill.

I don't give a **** what KW or JC said this past spring. Oswaldo is the one who makes the lineup. They all talk out of one side of their mouth and **** out the other. Take the time to understand the writing and you'll realize it doesn't matter if it's 2006 or 2008.

Anyway, I cannot help it if you take every word KW says as gospel.

Feel free to go back to la la land.......

Read and listen.

I was talking about Quentin, Owens, Swisher, and 2008.

Go back and read the thread, sober up, and see what it's about. You're missing a good thread with all your off topic ranting.

The topic was very specific. If you want to expand it to rant on your personal biases, go ahead. Leave me out of it. I'll continue to post what I know, and what I've been told. Read TomBradley72's reply as well, it might help you figure things out.

champagne030
09-24-2008, 11:30 PM
Read and listen.

I was talking about Quentin, Owens, Swisher, and 2008.

Go back and read the thread, sober up, and see what it's about. You're missing a good thread with all your off topic ranting.

The topic was very specific. If you want to expand it to rant on your personal biases, go ahead. Leave me out of it. I'll continue to post what I know, and what I've been told. Read TomBradley72's reply as well, it might help you figure things out.

I've read it all and am quite sober. Owens was our starting CF, regardless of tCQ's health, and Swish was to play LF. The only reason tCQ made it to Chicago to start the season was because Owens got hurt.

End of story. Maybe after you sleep it off you'll come see reality.

2906
09-24-2008, 11:37 PM
I've read it all and am quite sober. Owens was our starting CF, regardless of tCQ's health, and Swish was to play LF. The only reason tCQ made it to Chicago to start the season was because Owens got hurt.

End of story. Maybe after you sleep it off you'll come see reality.

To repeat, you don't know what you're talking about.

If your backwards baseball cap is on too tight, kindly remove it before posting again.

Owens was NOT the guaranteed CF. It was contingent on his performance and his health. They liked him as a leadoff hitter. They did NOT acquire Quentin to either sit him on the bench or send him to AAA, and Guillen knew this full well. Guillen has consistently been the one to badger Williams on getting better OBP guys, guys who could give the team better at bats. Williams and Guillen were in lock step on this.

Owens had something to prove, he needed to prove it over Swisher and Quentin, if/when healthy. You apparantly do not remember Williams had Quentin shut down during ST because he felt Quentin was pressing too hard to get in the lineup too soon. Quentin healed up nicely, just as I stated, I was there in Tucson, I know what I heard and what I saw. You weren't there, so stop talking and listen for once.

Owens got hurt, as I presume you know and have retained, and the picture changed. That's why Swisher went full time in CF. Before that, Swisher was going to play all over ... just as he did in Oakland. Some LF, some CF, some 1B, even some DH to spell Thome. And go figure, this is exactly what Williams said when he was acquired.

I see you did not go back to 2006 on your most recent post. Would you like me to correct you on that too, or shall we save that for another time?

Daver
09-24-2008, 11:37 PM
If you two can't play nice you're going to spend the rest of this season posting elsewhere.

2906
09-24-2008, 11:47 PM
If you two can't play nice you're going to spend the rest of this season posting elsewhere.

I understand clearly why you are saying this.

There are some bad and wrong misconceptions out there that are perpetuated by certain posters, it seems the only way to get the truth out is to be blunt.

And if I have been too blunt, I apologize to the site.

However, everything I said stands, 100%, because it's the truth. If people want to believe it, ok. If not, that's their issue.

DMarte708
09-25-2008, 12:38 AM
I understand clearly why you are saying this.

There are some bad and wrong misconceptions out there that are perpetuated by certain posters, it seems the only way to get the truth out is to be blunt.

And if I have been too blunt, I apologize to the site.

However, everything I said stands, 100%, because it's the truth. If people want to believe it, ok. If not, that's their issue.
Haha, apology not accepted. Banned.

JB98
09-25-2008, 01:57 AM
Haha, apology not accepted. Banned.

Actually, I think the mods banned him for a separate flame war from this one.

Thank goodness there is only one more night of this wretched series.

TomBradley72
09-25-2008, 09:00 AM
Actually, I think the mods banned him for a separate flame war from this one.

Thank goodness there is only one more night of this wretched series.

Is it my imagination or have these boards become alot "meaner" recently? I come here to have "armchair GM" type debates and the type of White Sox conversations I have with my buddies over a beer or two. But debating tactics and strategies or venting/celebrating the performance of the team doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Eventually people here will start to "attacK" and start to make it vicious and personal.

It's one thing to disagree...but the meanness...I don't get it.

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 02:50 PM
Is it my imagination or have these boards become alot "meaner" recently? I come here to have "armchair GM" type debates and the type of White Sox conversations I have with my buddies over a beer or two. But debating tactics and strategies or venting/celebrating the performance of the team doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Eventually people here will start to "attacK" and start to make it vicious and personal.

It's one thing to disagree...but the meanness...I don't get it.

IMO, the board is fine, more than fine.

If Sox win tonight, and then take at least 2 during the weekend.... everything will go back to 'happy love times' mode.

As for personal attacks, that's just human nature. But I can tell you for a fact that there are a hell of a lot less ad hominem here on WSI than other Sox boards. It's not even close. Believe me.

.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2008, 02:52 PM
But I can tell you for a fact that there are a hell of a lot less ad hominem here on WSI than other Sox boards combined. Believe me.There's a reason for that. :club:

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 03:03 PM
There's a reason for that.

...Because WSI'ers are a genetically superior breed? :dunno:











(LOL, i'll miss this board after the season; no hard feeling Nellie_Fox.)

Jaffar
09-25-2008, 03:44 PM
(LOL, i'll miss this board after the season; no hard feeling Nellie_Fox.)

The board stays very active year round.

FedEx227
09-25-2008, 03:52 PM
the board stays very active year round.

Liar!!

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 05:41 PM
The board stays very active year round.

Not what I meant, hehe.

JB98
09-25-2008, 05:43 PM
Is it my imagination or have these boards become alot "meaner" recently? I come here to have "armchair GM" type debates and the type of White Sox conversations I have with my buddies over a beer or two. But debating tactics and strategies or venting/celebrating the performance of the team doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Eventually people here will start to "attacK" and start to make it vicious and personal.

It's one thing to disagree...but the meanness...I don't get it.

Yeah, people are kinda pissy right now.

Marqhead
09-25-2008, 06:02 PM
Yeah, people are kinda pissy right now.

Everyone is on edge. Its understandable.