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View Full Version : Guillen On Vazquez


stevied23
09-22-2008, 11:25 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3602173

:o:

Marqhead
09-22-2008, 11:30 AM
Calling him out, I like it. Doubt it will have much of an effect, but it would be great if it did.

Go get em Javy.

btrain929
09-22-2008, 11:32 AM
OK..........?

The article has 2 lines from Ozzie. I don't see it as Ozzie "bashing" him. I'd be more shocked/upset about Javy's "i could care less" attitude.

White City
09-22-2008, 11:37 AM
Javy sounds really bad there. I hope he's going to have a more direct to response to Ozzie on the mound on Tuesday.

I think maybe Ozzie looks at Javy and expects him to be our ace, given the injury to Contreras and Javy's ability to pitch deep and get Ks. Javy has to step up and pitch the month of his life if we are going to win the World Series.

Good for Ozzie to question Javy's manhood a little. Now do your part, Javy. You audition for Game 1 of the World Series on Tuesday night.

chisoxmike
09-22-2008, 11:39 AM
I love it.

It's time Vazquez puts up or shuts up.

stevied23
09-22-2008, 12:06 PM
I love the fact that Ozzie called him out I just can't believe that was Vazquez's reply

soxfanaticpaulie
09-22-2008, 12:12 PM
Well, Ozzie would have had to think of a steamer of a lie to try and say that Javy can be a big game pitcher, because there is no evidence of it. It's not even an issue of Javy proving people wrong, it's a matter of taking that step and becoming a big game pitcher for the first time in his career. He certainly didn't do it last week in New York. I doubt he'll do it tomorrow night, but I hope he does.

DaveFeelsRight
09-22-2008, 12:18 PM
I liked that he called him out and all but the reply from Vazquez was weak.

chisoxfanatic
09-22-2008, 12:19 PM
I liked that he called him out and all but the reply from Vazquez was weak.
That, it was; but, let's hope Javy has a strong reply on the mound tomorrow.

oeo
09-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Where did ESPN get that angry picture of Ozzie from? :lol:

DaveFeelsRight
09-22-2008, 12:24 PM
That, it was; but, let's hope Javy has a strong reply on the mound tomorrow.Yeah. It's kinda like Cerrano in Major League 2. He just doesn't care haha. Well, it seems that way.

JermaineDye05
09-22-2008, 12:31 PM
We really need the Javy from last season to be in Minnesota. Last season teams couldn't touch him. Once he's locating that running fastball on the inside corner and has his changeup working, he's filthy. The problem is he tends to nibble a lot, he'll get a guy to 0-2 or 1-2 and then immediately go to 3-2. It seems like he wants to go for the strike out, I don't know if it's he doesn't trust the defense or if he doesn't trust his stuff enough to get guys out.

Ranger
09-22-2008, 12:37 PM
I think that article leaves out quite a bit from Vazquez. You'll get a better idea of what he was saying in this one:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1175996,CST-SPT-ssep21.article

hi im skot
09-22-2008, 12:47 PM
I think that article leaves out quite a bit from Vazquez. You'll get a better idea of what he was saying in this one:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1175996,CST-SPT-ssep21.article


Yeah, the ESPN article made Javy sound a little flaky. This article is much better.

guillensdisciple
09-22-2008, 01:03 PM
With the stuff Javy has he could be the ace of any staff. The problem with him has always been the big moment. If he finds a way to not fall under pressure he could be one of the best pitchers in baseball.

pmck003
09-22-2008, 01:07 PM
His talk on what he will do in retirement make me wonder if he really enjoys pitching that much if he doesn't care about his performance.

FoulTerritory
09-22-2008, 01:15 PM
I have no idea what Vasquez is talking about. Its okay if he sucks because he has a family and a home?

I have a family and a home too, which has very little to do with the quality of my job performance.

Jim Shorts
09-22-2008, 01:17 PM
I have no idea what Vasquez is talking about. Its okay if he sucks because he has a family and a home?

I have a family and a home too, which has very little to do with the quality of my job performance.

Considering that he has millions already, his performance vs. yours is quite different.

It wasn't a very good thing to say by javy. I expected more from a varsity letterman.

EuroSox35
09-22-2008, 01:50 PM
Vazquez does not seem to be the type of personality that responds well to this sort of thing. I don't buy this bs that he's not a 'big game' pitcher, I just think he's an inconsistent pitcher, it could be all meaningful or meaningless games, sometimes he'll be great, sometimes he'll suck

His response doesn't bother me either, he's saying, 'I'm going to go out and do my thing, and not worry about my legacy, or what others think', killing yourself mentally about not being Cy Young after the fact is a loser mentality, after your done with your career, enjoy life, at that time there's bigger things than baseball

Konerko05
09-22-2008, 02:09 PM
With the stuff Javy has he could be the ace of any staff. The problem with him has always been the big moment. If he finds a way to not fall under pressure he could be one of the best pitchers in baseball.

That big moment is usually the 6th inning. Over his whole career, opponents are batting .300 with a .867 OPS in the 6th.

Javy just needs to go out there with confidence in his stuff and attack the strike zone with quality pitches. He has good enough stuff to strike guys out on pitches over the plate.

I know it was against Kansas City, but his line a couple weeks ago was pretty amazing.

IP H R BB SO
8 5 0 0 1 10

He threw 109 pitches. 81 were strikes. That's like Greg Maddux territory. It's a pretty good indicator of what Javy can do when he is attacking the zone.

thomas35forever
09-22-2008, 03:07 PM
Ozzie was right in calling him out. He needs to step up right now if he wants to help this team make the playoffs. One poster was right that it's "put up or shut up" time for him. That said, don't let us down Javy.

Foulke You
09-22-2008, 04:15 PM
That big moment is usually the 6th inning. Over his whole career, opponents are batting .300 with a .867 OPS in the 6th.

Javy just needs to go out there with confidence in his stuff and attack the strike zone with quality pitches. He has good enough stuff to strike guys out on pitches over the plate.

I know it was against Kansas City, but his line a couple weeks ago was pretty amazing.

IP H R BB SO
8 5 0 0 1 10

He threw 109 pitches. 81 were strikes. That's like Greg Maddux territory. It's a pretty good indicator of what Javy can do when he is attacking the zone.
That 5th or 6th inning has definitely been the problem with Javy. He can be cruising and then all of the sudden it is blooper, walk, and a 3 run blast. I think part of the problem is that he doesn't trust his fastball. Something tells me Javy will be up for this start though. He hasn't had back to back bad starts in a couple months and has pitched well against the Twins this year.

chisoxmike
09-22-2008, 04:16 PM
That 5th or 6th inning has definitely been the problem with Javy. He can be cruising and then all of the sudden it is blooper, walk, and a 3 run blast. I think part of the problem is that he doesn't trust his fastball. Something tells me Javy will be up for this start though. He hasn't had back to back bad starts in a couple months and has pitched well against the Twins this year.

He also doesn't like throwing his change up. That would be a deadly pitch for him.

Adele_H
09-22-2008, 04:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3602173

:o:

Not surprising.

I've always felt it was just a job for Vazquez, one of the reasons why he never quite lived up to his abilities.

And truth be told, it would be beyond hypocritical for me to judge the man on that basis - enjoying life (and serving the Lord), afterall, is what it's all about.

I just wish Javy would toss a few 1-hitters during a pennant race & playoffs, if it's all the same to him. Not too much to ask, is it?

,

Ranger
09-22-2008, 04:50 PM
I have no idea what Vasquez is talking about. Its okay if he sucks because he has a family and a home?

I have a family and a home too, which has very little to do with the quality of my job performance.

I think he's trying to say that he doesn't like the reputation of not being a big game pitcher. He's not saying that he doesn't care how well he does.

However, he now has a chance to have something to say about how he is perceived.

BigP50
09-22-2008, 04:55 PM
I think that Javy is pitching the first game of the series. Hopefully he is lights out!

SpartanSoxFan
09-22-2008, 06:14 PM
Like it or not, fair or unfair, this start for Javy is arguably the most meaningful of his career, and will cement his legacy as a big game pitcher (or lack thereof).

EuroSox35
09-23-2008, 02:34 PM
Front page of ESPN.com now says 'Guillen vs Vazquez'

bluestar
09-23-2008, 02:43 PM
In all the discussion about Vazquez, I rarely see anyone mention the effect of umpiring on Vazquez. I think this is a critical factor for him. If the umpire has a very tight or inconsistent strike zone, Vazquez generally struggles. If the umpire has a generous strike zone, Vazquez generally does well.

I honestly think if Vazquez had the benefit of a 1990's Glavine/Maddux/Smoltz strike zone on a regular basis, he would be regarded as one of the most dominant pitchers in the game.

I'm not blaming the umpires, but I don't think Vazquez is very good at adjusting to different strike zones. He likes to nibble around the corners too much, and an umpire with a tight strike zone is deadly for him.

oeo
09-23-2008, 02:46 PM
Front page of ESPN.com now says 'Guillen vs Vazquez'

:duel:

hi im skot
09-23-2008, 02:49 PM
Javy's got this one.

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 02:55 PM
In all the discussion about Vazquez, I rarely see anyone mention the effect of umpiring on Vazquez. I think this is a critical factor for him. If the umpire has a very tight or inconsistent strike zone, Vazquez generally struggles. If the umpire has a generous strike zone, Vazquez generally does well.

I honestly think if Vazquez had the benefit of a 1990's Glavine/Maddux/Smoltz strike zone on a regular basis, he would be regarded as one of the most dominant pitchers in the game.

I'm not blaming the umpires, but I don't think Vazquez is very good at adjusting to different strike zones. He likes to nibble around the corners too much, and an umpire with a tight strike zone is deadly for him.

That's just too bad. When you nibble, you run that risk.

That's why as strike-zones (and ballparks) around shrink, pitchers who can consistently be in the strike zone - whether by blowing hitters away, by completely fooling them or by inducing ground-balls - without getting killed, are at such premium these days.

Vazquez simply is not quite good enough mentally/mechanically to be able to pitch from the stretch, especially 3rd time through the opposing line-up. That's why he struggles in the 6th inning, for example.

beasly213
09-23-2008, 02:57 PM
Go get um Javy. I feel confident he is going to shut down the Twins.
Just walk Morneau and Mauer if guys are on base. :redneck

alohafri
09-23-2008, 09:25 PM
Rob Dibble said, "And that's why Javier Vazquez is a .500 pitcher. With the stuff he has, he should be one of the dominant pitchers in the league. He just doesn't seem to care."

I think he is proving Dibbs right tonight.

Adele_H
09-23-2008, 09:45 PM
Rob Dibble said, "And that's why Javier Vazquez is a .500 pitcher. With the stuff he has, he should be one of the dominant pitchers in the league. He just doesn't seem to care."

I think he is proving Dibbs right tonight.

Caveat: when bases are empty & things generally go Javy's way.

Javy had an excellent 1st inning, benefitting from a couple of questionable calls in his favor.

2nd inning? Starts it off by dropping an excellent back-door curve the ump doesn't give him... an "injustice" to which the ever stoic Javy responds by throwing the next 5 pitches well out of the strike zone, followed by a BP-quality floating change-up into Kubel's wheelhouse.

HR. 2-1 Twins, and the rest is history.

Konerko05
09-23-2008, 09:47 PM
Vazquez is a joke.

Noneck
09-23-2008, 09:49 PM
Vazquez is a joke.

Jokes are amusing but he doesn't amuse me.

stevied23
09-23-2008, 09:50 PM
I wish I could say I'm surprised at Vazquez's performance. They are just going to have to get after it tomorrow. Knocking some guys in who are sitting on 2nd base with 0 or 1 outs wouldn't hurt either.

EuroSox35
09-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Rob Dibble said, "And that's why Javier Vazquez is a .500 pitcher. With the stuff he has, he should be one of the dominant pitchers in the league. He just doesn't seem to care."

I think he is proving Dibbs right tonight.

I don't think the problem is that he doesn't care, but pitching isn't all about stuff, and in the end, he's a .500 pitcher. It's not about big games vs meaningless games to me

Just from watching him, I don't see how you can say he doesn't care, you can tell he battles himself, the people inside the team say that's his biggest problem, he's almost too fierce out there. That's why I thought this strategy by Ozzie was dumb as hell in this situation...

Jurr
09-23-2008, 09:55 PM
I don't think the problem is that he doesn't care, but pitching isn't all about stuff, and in the end, he's a .500 pitcher. It's not about big games vs meaningless games to me

Just from watching him, I don't see how you can say he doesn't care, you can tell he battles himself, the people inside the team say that's his biggest problem, he's almost too fierce out there. That's why I thought this strategy by Ozzie was dumb as hell in this situation...
It's definitely all about makeup with Javy. He's got the great stuff without the confidence and composure to consistently harness his stuff. It sucks to watch.

SpartanSoxFan
09-23-2008, 09:56 PM
I don't think the problem is that he doesn't care, but pitching isn't all about stuff, and in the end, he's a .500 pitcher. It's not about big games vs meaningless games to me

Just from watching him, I don't see how you can say he doesn't care, you can tell he battles himself, the people inside the team say that's his biggest problem, he's almost too fierce out there. That's why I thought this strategy by Ozzie was dumb as hell in this situation...

Javy might act like he doesn't care, but the reality is that he psyches himself out in situations like this and when one pitch or call doesn't go his way, he allows the world to cave in on him. He is a mental-midget. Plain and simple.

drewcifer
09-23-2008, 09:57 PM
I don't think the problem is that he doesn't care, but pitching isn't all about stuff, and in the end, he's a .500 pitcher.

Not anymore. A very VERY expensive sub-.500 pitcher.

kitekrazy
09-23-2008, 10:00 PM
Not anymore. A very VERY expensive sub-.500 pitcher.

You obviously haven't seen how expensive pitching is in MLB.

drewcifer
09-23-2008, 10:02 PM
You obviously haven't seen how expensive pitching is in MLB.

Ok. :rolleyes:

sunofgold
09-24-2008, 12:30 AM
This guy had a great year last year. He has the stuff to be an ace. He piles up a lot of strikeouts. But, he is 12-15. Imagine if he was 15-12. We would have about clinched this thing already.

We traded a lot to get this guy from Arizona. Then, we gave him a lot of money which we could have given to another starter.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 12:33 AM
This guy had a great year last year. He has the stuff to be an ace. .

Real aces don't come unglued in big games as easily as he does - whenever there are couple of runners on base and an umpire doesn't give him 3 inches off the plate, you could see it in his face...

Vazquez is a # 2-3 even at his absolute best.

drewcifer
09-24-2008, 12:34 AM
This guy had a great year last year. He has the stuff to be an ace. He piles up a lot of strikeouts. But, he is 12-15. Imagine if he was 15-12. We would have about clinched this thing already.

We traded a lot to get this guy from Arizona. Then, we gave him a lot of money which we could have given to another starter.

He could NEVER be an ace. That has always been obvious about him. He strikes out alot, he throws innings, and gets into jams to hand off to BPs. That is ALWAYS how he has pitched. It was the book when he left NY, actually. AZ took a chance on him being much more exceptional in the weakest division in a weaker league. And yet he still was pedestrian.

In 06 when we got him, that IP portion of his history seemed to be a good fit. Except that our exceptionally "good" bullpen was suddenly exceptionally bad.

Also, that off-season was a very thin off-season for pitching. We got him in trade actually, not $.

Pretty much everything about your post is wrong.

chisoxfanatic
09-24-2008, 12:35 AM
Real aces don't come unglued in big games as easily as he does - whenever there are couple of runners on base and an umpire doesn't give him 3 inches off the plate, you could see it in his face...

Vazquez is a # 2-3 even at his absolute best.
He's not even the #2 or 3 on this TEAM! He's no greater than a #4 right now.

KingXerxes
09-24-2008, 12:43 AM
I thought Guillen's comments (albeit just a couple of quotes) were uncalled for, and fairly typical of Guillen.

First off, if Vasquez lays an egg (which he did), Guillen is positioning himself to get off the hook by questioning Vasquez's ability to win in the first place.

Had Vasquez thrown a three hit shut out, Guillen had positioned himself to take the credit for it by "lighting a fire".

This is the same crap everybody saw and heard when the White Sox came off that mid-year trip in Tampa/St. Pete. He sits around yakking about how "this team is not going to win", and "changes are going to be made" - and why? Because then if the team wins, he stands to get a lot of the credit, and if they lose he'll miss a lot of the blame (by saying he was front and center in identifying their problems - none of which evidently are in his control).

Listen Guillen - If you don't think Vasquez is a big game pitcher, then it's YOUR JOB to see that he doesn't pitch in big games. You can't have it both ways by starting him and complaining about it.

He wants to talk about how everybody on the White Sox should play like men, act like men, walk like men, talk llike men - He should start following his own advice.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:03 AM
He's not even the #2 or 3 on this TEAM! He's no greater than a #4 right now.

That's because the team is winning and playing meaningful baseball.

Now, if 2008 Sox were having 2007 Sox kind of season, Vazquez would be having... 2007 Vazquez kind of numbers. i.e. #2-3 starter.

guillensdisciple
09-24-2008, 01:08 AM
I thought Guillen's comments (albeit just a couple of quotes) were uncalled for, and fairly typical of Guillen.

First off, if Vasquez lays an egg (which he did), Guillen is positioning himself to get off the hook by questioning Vasquez's ability to win in the first place.

Had Vasquez thrown a three hit shut out, Guillen had positioned himself to take the credit for it by "lighting a fire".

This is the same crap everybody saw and heard when the White Sox came off that mid-year trip in Tampa/St. Pete. He sits around yakking about how "this team is not going to win", and "changes are going to be made" - and why? Because then if the team wins, he stands to get a lot of the credit, and if they lose he'll miss a lot of the blame (by saying he was front and center in identifying their problems - none of which evidently are in his control).

Listen Guillen - If you don't think Vasquez is a big game pitcher, then it's YOUR JOB to see that he doesn't pitch in big games. You can't have it both ways by starting him and complaining about it.

He wants to talk about how everybody on the White Sox should play like men, act like men, walk like men, talk llike men - He should start following his own advice.

None of this is Ozzie's fault. Players love him, he is doing what any manager should be doing. You think good managers don't call out their players? I am sorry I don't see what you are blaming him for.

KingXerxes
09-24-2008, 01:26 AM
None of this is Ozzie's fault. Players love him, he is doing what any manager should be doing. You think good managers don't call out their players? I am sorry I don't see what you are blaming him for.

The only thing I'm "blaming" him for is that he makes a choice - Vasquez - to start a game against Minnesota last night, and before the first pitch is even thrown he's talking about how Vasquez doesn't step up in big games.

This is called arguing from both sides of the fence, and he does it constantly. If he felt that Vasquez has a problem stepping up into big games, then he shouldn't have started him. If he chose to start Vasquez, then he should stick by him.

I have no problem "calling out" players when the calling out is done in private, and face to face.

This was self-centered positioning on Guillen's part, not the first time we've seen it, and certainly not the last.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:36 AM
I thought Guillen's comments (albeit just a couple of quotes) were uncalled for, and fairly typical of Guillen.

First off, if Vasquez lays an egg (which he did), Guillen is positioning himself to get off the hook by questioning Vasquez's ability to win in the first place.

Had Vasquez thrown a three hit shut out, Guillen had positioned himself to take the credit for it by "lighting a fire".

This is the same crap everybody saw and heard when the White Sox came off that mid-year trip in Tampa/St. Pete. He sits around yakking about how "this team is not going to win", and "changes are going to be made" - and why? Because then if the team wins, he stands to get a lot of the credit, and if they lose he'll miss a lot of the blame (by saying he was front and center in identifying their problems - none of which evidently are in his control).

Listen Guillen - If you don't think Vasquez is a big game pitcher, then it's YOUR JOB to see that he doesn't pitch in big games. You can't have it both ways by starting him and complaining about it.

He wants to talk about how everybody on the White Sox should play like men, act like men, walk like men, talk llike men - He should start following his own advice.

I asked Daver this earlier in another thread, so I might as well ask you, too:

"Do you think Ozzie is the Fundamentals genius & fearless leader of mangs.... that we've all been led to believe he was all this time?"

DaveFeelsRight
09-24-2008, 01:52 AM
I dunno if you guys heard this but supposedly Vazquez was battling an ear infection while he was pitching.

KingXerxes
09-24-2008, 01:52 AM
I asked Daver this earlier in another thread, so I might as well ask you, too:

"Do you think Ozzie is the Fundamentals genius & fearless leader of mangs.... that we've all been led to believe he was all this time?"

I've never believed he was a fundamentals genius.

As far as being a "leader of men" - I look at it this way. A leader is only as powerful as the people underneath him will allow him to be. If the entire White Sox roster buys into Ozzie Guillen, then he can be a very effective leader - if they don't he's sunk. I suspect in the long term that his calculated "blow ups" will wear thin on the team and he'll lose them. Maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but someday.

I'm not on the roster of the White Sox though, and my view is that he's a duplicitous blow hard. The sorriest part about all of this is that he's not alone in this respect within the White Sox organization.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:56 AM
I dunno if you guys heard this but supposedly Vazquez was battling an ear infection while he was pitching.

Yeast infection is more like it.

DaveFeelsRight
09-24-2008, 01:59 AM
Yeast infection is more like it.Haha man, I think this "ear infection" is a excuse for him blowing so hard.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 02:24 AM
Listen Guillen -

He wants to talk about how everybody on the White Sox should play like men, act like men, walk like men, talk llike men
.


http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/080523/Grand-Funk_l.jpg

Im gonna'
Walk like a mang,
Talk like a mang...


.

Lillian
09-24-2008, 08:05 AM
This discussion brings up the question of who starts in the Division playoffs, if the Sox get there. It's only a five game series, and you really only need three starters. Would you just skip Javy?

chisoxfanatic
09-24-2008, 08:14 AM
This discussion brings up the question of who starts in the Division playoffs, if the Sox get there. It's only a five game series, and you really only need three starters. Would you just skip Javy?
That isn't even a question. It's a given. If you care about giving yourself the best opportunity to win, Javy has to be as far away from that mound as possible. I wouldn't want him in charge when the series could be on the line.

Lundind1
09-24-2008, 08:23 AM
I've never believed he was a fundamentals genius.

As far as being a "leader of men" - I look at it this way. A leader is only as powerful as the people underneath him will allow him to be. If the entire White Sox roster buys into Ozzie Guillen, then he can be a very effective leader - if they don't he's sunk. I suspect in the long term that his calculated "blow ups" will wear thin on the team and he'll lose them. Maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but someday.

I'm not on the roster of the White Sox though, and my view is that he's a duplicitous blow hard. The sorriest part about all of this is that he's not alone in this respect within the White Sox organization.

So are you gonna call Tony LaRussa one, Lou Pinella one, Ron Gardenhire one, Joe Torre one, and Jim Leyland one....because the last time I checked, these are all winning managers and they all call their players out from time to time.

When you question one's ability is when you see what he/she is made of. If Ozzie is not getting the desired response from his player then they won't be around. You have to remember that he is also a winning manager.

KingXerxes
09-24-2008, 11:22 AM
So are you gonna call Tony LaRussa one, Lou Pinella one, Ron Gardenhire one, Joe Torre one, and Jim Leyland one....because the last time I checked, these are all winning managers and they all call their players out from time to time.

When you question one's ability is when you see what he/she is made of. If Ozzie is not getting the desired response from his player then they won't be around. You have to remember that he is also a winning manager.

The next time that LaRussa, Pinella, Gardenhire, Torre or Leyland "calls out" their starting pitcher - to the media - before that pitcher is scheduled to pitch will be the first time collectively any one of them has ever done it.

Do they call players out? Absolutely, but more along the lines of, "We need some guys to step up and give us a quality 7 inning start." or "Look, Joe hasn't been hitting lately and we need guys that are hitting right now." If they ever pointedly accuse a player of not coming through in big situations, and I'm certain they do, it's not in the newspapers.

Another great example of the dynamic I'm talking about is in today's paper. What possible reason would Kenny Williams have to blurt out that the White Sox should have already clinched the division? This is rank posturing (i.e. "I put together a great team that should be ten games up right now - the players are not performing the way they should.") What part of the concept of "team" doesn't Kenny Wiliams get? If this team is underachieving, and I actually think they're overachieving, then he is as much to blame as anybody for this fact. But no! Not in his mind. Then he'll blabber on about how the entire White Sox organization wins and loses as a team, a concept that doesn't square with his comments (or attitude).

They want to have it both ways. I suspect - in time - it will wear thin on those in uniform. I mean, how long can you listen to a guy explain that an outfielder - with bad knees - will have an easier time playing center field than right? Come on already!

After the Cubs clinched the division, there was an interview with the chairman (I forget his name), but in the interview he stated, while the Cubs hit the skids in early September, he and the general manager were constantly discussing what they could have or should have done to put the team in a situation where this didn't happen. That's quite a different attitude than the "Not Me!" carping out of the White Sox front office.

Again, Kenny Williams does not sign my checks, and Ozzie Guillen is not my boss. I realize my perspective is different from the guys playing. If this sort of double-talk works with the team, then it works, but I don't like the odds.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-24-2008, 11:51 AM
I agree with KingXerxes about the Sox management. I've felt since the 05-06 offseason that they were doing and saying all the wrong things. I find their BS very difficult to endure.

Here's something to consider regarding Vazquez: the way the rotation is lined up, he's scheduled to go on Sunday against Cliff Lee, unless they go with a four man rotation and pitch him and Buehrle on three days' rest. If he really is the big game choker that he seems to be, we'd better hope to have this thing wrapped up by then.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2008, 11:55 AM
Rocky:

Buehrle was quoted today in the Sun-Times, I think, as saying if needed he goes Sunday afternoon on short rest. (That speaks volumes.)


Sunogold:

It is interesting to note, maybe it's just random chance but if you look at Vazquez's career, his best seasons seem to have come in years the team he pitched for was bad. (i.e. out of the race early on)

Lip

alohafri
09-24-2008, 12:05 PM
Caveat: when bases are empty & things generally go Javy's way.

Javy had an excellent 1st inning, benefitting from a couple of questionable calls in his favor.

2nd inning? Starts it off by dropping an excellent back-door curve the ump doesn't give him... an "injustice" to which the ever stoic Javy responds by throwing the next 5 pitches well out of the strike zone, followed by a BP-quality floating change-up into Kubel's wheelhouse.

HR. 2-1 Twins, and the rest is history.

I hate the term "mental midget" but this gives credence to that argument about Javy. He doesn't seem to be able to pitch around the calls that don't go his way. He seems to dwell on them for a couple of batters.

DaveFeelsRight
09-24-2008, 12:11 PM
I agree with KingXerxes about the Sox management. I've felt since the 05-06 offseason that they were doing and saying all the wrong things. I find their BS very difficult to endure.That's great and all but it seems that pitching on short rest hasn't been working so far.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-24-2008, 12:22 PM
That's great and all but it seems that pitching on short rest hasn't been working so far.

I'm not suggesting that is what we should do, but that we are in a tight situation and we need to clinch before Javy pitches again. I would hate to see an 8-0 blowout to Cleveland on the last day of the season in a must-win game.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Dave:

The problem is who else can the Sox turn to? Broadway? Richard??

See the dilemma they are in?

They didn't have the depth to protect themselves when Contreras got hurt.

In today’s game with the way pitchers are “babied” for lack of a better word, the law of averages shows that the chances of a pitching staff making it through a season ALL healthy and ALL without having a bad year are slim or none.

That means that you better have reliable insurance ready to go when these situations come up. The issues with the Sox minor league system complicates this tremendously as well.

Lip

DaveFeelsRight
09-24-2008, 12:24 PM
I'm not suggesting that is what we should do, but that we are in a tight situation and we need to clinch before Javy pitches again. I would hate to see an 8-0 blowout to Cleveland on the last day of the season in a must-win game.I know you didn't say. All that I was mentioning was that letting pitchers throw on short rest hasn't payed off so far.

EndemicSox
09-24-2008, 12:28 PM
Guy simply can't handle pressure situations, it certainly doesn't mean he is a "mental midget", because he isn't stupid, far from it actually, but stress simply isn't something he handles very well. I don't like these types of pitchers, they don't have a place on a playoff calibre team. If he is on the bump in the playoffs, it will not be pretty.

sunofgold
09-24-2008, 12:31 PM
He will probably pitch in the Cleveland series. Maybe some of this stuff that Ozzie has said will help in the long term...like his next start. If JV pitches well his next start, all of the past will be forgotten. I think that he just needs to get over the hump and throw a great game in an important game.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-24-2008, 12:50 PM
Guy simply can't handle pressure situations, it certainly doesn't mean he is a "mental midget", because he isn't stupid, far from it actually, but stress simply isn't something he handles very well. I don't like these types of pitchers, they don't have a place on a playoff calibre team. If he is on the bump in the playoffs, it will not be pretty.

His comments about retiring to Puerto Rico and being with his family, where none of this mattered, don't engender confidence. He doesn't seem to care that much, and when things don't go his way he's ready to give up.

I still think that Guillen should have talked to Vazquez in private rather than going through the media, but you have to admit, he was right.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:01 PM
I know you didn't say. All that I was mentioning was that letting pitchers throw on short rest hasn't payed off so far.

No coincidence 2 of Vazquez's worst starts in a while come after going on 3-day rest.

Buerhle got lit up not long after going on 3-day rest earlier this season, as well.

I won't even mention brief 2004 experiement with Freddy Garcia.

Solution: start Richard and bite the bullet for one game VS. deal with after-effect on several starters in several games.

Somewhat ironically, Richard ended up looking the best of all starters against the Yankees.

JB98
09-24-2008, 01:05 PM
His comments about retiring to Puerto Rico and being with his family, where none of this mattered, don't engender confidence. He doesn't seem to care that much, and when things don't go his way he's ready to give up.

I still think that Guillen should have talked to Vazquez in private rather than going through the media, but you have to admit, he was right.

How do you know that Guillen didn't talk to Vazquez in private? My guess is he probably did.

Vazquez is a talented guy, but he doesn't ever seem to be there for his teammates when they need him most.

I think Guillen's error was trusting Vazquez to pitch the first game of an important series. I don't really think the blubbering in the papers matters all that much.

stevied23
09-24-2008, 01:08 PM
At this point, I'd rather see Richard than Vasquez.

alohafri
09-24-2008, 01:13 PM
At this point, I'd rather see Richard than Vasquez.

Bee Bee Richard! :redneck

alohafri
09-24-2008, 01:16 PM
:jaime

"I know how you feel Javy. Those ingrates didn't appreciate what I brought to the table either."

KingXerxes
09-24-2008, 01:39 PM
How do you know that Guillen didn't talk to Vazquez in private? My guess is he probably did.

If he did talk to Vasquez in private (I have no way of knowing if he did or didn't, but I'll assume he did), then what could possibly be the reason that he would utter the same things to the media? The reason you speak to somebody in private is so the whole world doesn't hear about it.

JB98
09-24-2008, 01:53 PM
If he did talk to Vasquez in private (I have no way of knowing if he did or didn't, but I'll assume he did), then what could possibly be the reason that he would utter the same things to the media? The reason you speak to somebody in private is so the whole world doesn't hear about it.

He probably said what he said to the media to try to motivate Vazquez. Of course, it didn't work, so it's easy to say now it was the wrong thing to do.

As I said, Guillen's real error was trusting Vazquez to pitch the first game of a big series in the first place. With the rainouts a couple weekends back, they certainly had ample opportunity to juggle the rotation and set it the way they wanted for this series. I'm perplexed as to why they selected Vazquez over Buehrle or Floyd for the opener.

Adele_H
09-24-2008, 01:57 PM
If he did talk to Vasquez in private (I have no way of knowing if he did or didn't, but I'll assume he did), then what could possibly be the reason that he would utter the same things to the media? The reason you speak to somebody in private is so the whole world doesn't hear about it.

But then Ozzie wouldn't be the whacky duplicitous spotlight-whore that we've all come to love, now would he?

:tsk:

KingXerxes
09-25-2008, 09:55 AM
Last night, after the game (pursuant to the Chicago Tribune):

"Our offense couldn't get anything going, and then when we get something going on, they don't hit in the clutch," Guillen said. "To win games like this, you have to hit in the clutch because of the type of club we have. That's the reason we lost."

Maybe I'm picking fly crap out of pepper here, but I truly wish he would stop excluding himself from the team on negative issues.

esbrechtel
09-25-2008, 09:57 AM
In his defense when they win he doesn't say "we" either...just my $0.02

KingXerxes
09-25-2008, 10:08 AM
In his defense when they win he doesn't say "we" either...just my $0.02

I'll keep an eye out for that. The last week or so has worn thin on everybody - and it's been gnawing at me for a few days that he and Williams seem to be exonerating themselves on a fairly regular basis lately.

It's just gotten under my skin - that's all.

esbrechtel
09-25-2008, 10:10 AM
I know the whole living in the past thing, but he didn't even go out on to the field when they won the WS....and he had even said "It's not me, They did it" I totally get the frustration, and I am really not a HUGE Ozzie fan but to his credit he usually gives the players credit :D:

KingXerxes
09-25-2008, 10:18 AM
Duly noted.

TomBradley72
09-25-2008, 11:13 AM
I think the whole rotation adjustments to 3 days rest...probably wasn't a good idea....only MB seems to be able to handle it. Bigger picture...a years ago we acquired Javy to be out #4 or #5 starter...a good role for him. All of a sudden he's our #1 starter in the biggest series of the season...that's obviously more than we can expect from him. The right order for us is probably MB-Floyd-Danks-Javy-Richard at this point.

oeo
09-25-2008, 11:19 AM
Last night, after the game (pursuant to the Chicago Tribune):

"Our offense couldn't get anything going, and then when we get something going on, they don't hit in the clutch," Guillen said. "To win games like this, you have to hit in the clutch because of the type of club we have. That's the reason we lost."

Maybe I'm picking fly crap out of pepper here, but I truly wish he would stop excluding himself from the team on negative issues.

He takes the hit all the time for the team's struggles. He's fed up.

BTW, what's Ozzie going to do in order to get guys to execute? They just can't do it, and haven't been able to do it all year.

KingXerxes
09-25-2008, 02:06 PM
He takes the hit all the time for the team's struggles. He's fed up.

BTW, what's Ozzie going to do in order to get guys to execute? They just can't do it, and haven't been able to do it all year.

My point has nothing to do with Guillen's aggravation level - which I'm certain is high. It has everything to do with the mixed pronouns of "we" and "they".

If "they" are not getting clutch hits (as Guillen said), then it is "they" who lost as a team - not "we" as he also said.

As I wrote before, I think I'm just irritated (primarily from Kenny Williams' quotes earlier this week), but this I wish this "we"/"they" stuff would stop.

If this team has nobody on it who can execute, then Guillen's next quote should be, ""Go ask Kenny Williams.......he put this team together."

Win or lose - do it as a unit.

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 02:23 PM
In his defense when they win he doesn't say "we" either...

Come on now.

Ozzie is famous for saying "my" team, or otherwise sneaking in the "I" into damn near every interview context or situation. And when there is any kind of issue worth attention, he will invariably make it about himself.... unless the team is falling apart, then of course it really isn't about him as KingXerxes pointed.

Compare your average Lou Piniella press conferences with those of Ozzie Guillen, for example. See how many times either says I, my, me, or otherwise attempts to steer the flow unto himself.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2008, 02:25 PM
If "they" are not getting clutch hits (as Guillen said), then it is "they" who lost as a team - not "we" as he also said.I can't believe it has been reduced to worrying about whether the manager uses we or they, and when he does it. However, in your example, Ozzie does not bat, so "they" didn't hit. However, as for winning and losing as a team, then the manager and coaches figure into the equation, and "we" becomes appropriate.

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 02:35 PM
BTW, what's Ozzie going to do in order to get guys to execute? They just can't do it, and haven't been able to do it all year.

^^^ is such nonsense it isn't even funny.

AJ can't bunt? Don't have him bunt. (especially in situations when he is facing a pitcher he's hitting .700+ lifetime against)

Uribe can't steal? The don't have him steal.

Dye, Konerko, Swisher used to be able to hit to ALL fields with authority. Not anymore. The outer half of the plate doesn't exist.

Basic run-down & hit-n-run plays are botched regularly; defensive aligments are at times head-scratchingly wrong. Why, I can't see at all why a self-styled Fundamentals Guru would be held responsible at some point...

The team that Ozzie wanted... can't hit on the road, can't field, can't run, can't control the running game, and folds under slightest whiff of pressure - save for a couple of newcomers Alexei & Quentin who just don't know better, yet.

This is a 110-120 Millon dollar juggernaut of a Sox team. I think they're underachieving. I think Ozzie is not entirely blameless in all of this.

Adele_H
09-25-2008, 05:51 PM
Guillen's aggravation level - which I'm certain is high.

Ozzie kinda subdued right now, but you could tell he wants to bodily harm Cabrera for his comments on B&B.

Swisher better not knock on his office door or "da tru we comao".

KingXerxes
09-25-2008, 10:58 PM
Ozzie does not bat, so "they" didn't hit. However, as for winning and losing as a team, then the manager and coaches figure into the equation, and "we" becomes appropriate.

OK - Let's juxtapose the above with a scenario where Ozzie Guillen pulls a pitcher with the lead, and the reliever gets rocked, and the White Sox lose.

After the game, a White Sox player speaking to reporters utters something to the effect of:

"He made a mistake by putting the wrong pitcher in, that's why we lost."

How do you think that would fly? This player would be justifiably crucified for not being a team player, and I imagine would be given his release.

What's good for the goose............

Adele_H
09-26-2008, 03:42 AM
OK - Let's juxtapose the above with a scenario where Ozzie Guillen pulls a pitcher with the lead, and the reliever gets rocked, and the White Sox lose.

After the game, a White Sox player speaking to reporters utters something to the effect of:

"He made a mistake by putting the wrong pitcher in, that's why we lost."

How do you think that would fly? This player would be justifiably crucified for not being a team player, and I imagine would be given his release.

What's good for the goose............

Ultimately, Ozzie is Ozzie - and he ain't changin' for noone but the Devil.

If Ozziot had any control over the team.... among other things.... by now he would have seen the need to, um, "persuade" a Stanford grad like Quentin to, I dunno... STOP SLAMMING HIS HAND AGAINST BASEBALL BATS, WALLS AND OTHER EVEN REMOTELY SOLID OBJECTS.

Alas.

.