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Lip Man 1
09-21-2008, 08:06 PM
This will be interesting. Dan Patrick is hosting the one hour special "supposedly" telling all of us the best ever Chicago baseball team.

It'll be aired on WGN Monday at 8PM CST.

Geez, I wonder how many Cubs will be on it?

I'll be taping just because there may be some historical Sox footage I can use. I'll fast forward through the Cub garbage.

Lip

MeteorsSox4367
09-21-2008, 08:14 PM
You just know they'll pick Mark Grace over Frank Thomas.

alohafri
09-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Geez, I wonder how many Cubs will be on it?



Lip

First Base: Derrek Lee
Second Base: Manny Trillo
Third Base: Ron Santo/Aramis Ramirez
Shortstop: (Tie) Ernie Banks/Don Kessinger
Left Field: Dave Kingman
Center Field: Juan Pierre
Right Field: Koske Fukadome
Starting Pitcher: Rick Reuschel
Relief Pitcher: (Tie) Lee Smith/Bruce Sutter
Designated Hitter: Harold Baines

Lip Man 1
09-21-2008, 09:03 PM
Meteors:

It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to see Banks over Thomas at first and Sandberg over Fox at second. (The Chad's and Trixie's of the world I'm sure will have stuffed the WGN voting site...)

Lip

MeteorsSox4367
09-21-2008, 09:08 PM
Lip: You're right. I could live with Banks over Thomas since Banks is a HOFer, but the selection of someone like Grace would tick me off.

As for Sandberg over Nellie Fox, I'm sure that will happen. Sandberg was a marquee player for them. As for Fox, I'm too young to have seen him play, but my Dad always thought Fox was the heart of the Sox.

Noneck
09-21-2008, 09:27 PM
Meteors:

It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to see Banks over Thomas at first

Lip
I've thought of this and all that would do is make either Little Looie or Old Aches and Pains a lock at ss. So I won't mind.

TDog
09-21-2008, 09:27 PM
You could go ahead and complain about the list before it comes out. Even after it does come out, why would I care?

I have gotten into arguments with people who didn't believe Luis Aparicio should be in the Hall of Fame and believed Nellie Fox was one of those unqualified infielders elected by the Veterans Committee.

I would place Aparicio ahead of Banks and Thomas in front of Banks. The result, at best, will be political.

Medford Bobby
09-21-2008, 09:31 PM
This will be interesting. Dan Patrick is hosting the one hour special "supposedly" telling all of us the best ever Chicago baseball team.

It'll be aired on WGN Monday at 8PM CST.

Geez, I wonder how many Cubs will be on it?

I'll be taping just because there may be some historical Sox footage I can use. I'll fast forward through the Cub garbage.

Lip

What, no love for Joe Pepitone?:scratch:

Nellie_Fox
09-22-2008, 01:17 AM
What, no love for Joe Pepitone?:scratch:Pepitone's toupé will probably make the list.

LITTLE NELL
09-22-2008, 05:24 AM
Lip: You're right. I could live with Banks over Thomas since Banks is a HOFer, but the selection of someone like Grace would tick me off.

As for Sandberg over Nellie Fox, I'm sure that will happen. Sandberg was a marquee player for them. As for Fox, I'm too young to have seen him play, but my Dad always thought Fox was the heart of the Sox.
I grew up with Fox and Aparicio. They were the best 2nd baseman and shortstop of their time which in my book makes them Hall of Famers. Fox was in 13 all star games.
Ryno was probably better than Fox stat wise,but they played in different eras. I'm a little biased but I go with Nellie at 2B.
These are players that I saw play
My Chicago team.
1B Banks
2B Fox
SS Aparicio
3B Santo(This really hurts)
LF Williiams
CF Landis or Lemon
RF Sosa(This hurts too)
C Fisk
DH Thomas
SP Pierce
SP Jenkins
SP Wilbur Wood
SP Reushel
SP Horlen
RP Wilhelm
RP Sutter
RP Lee Smith
RP Thigpen
Manager Al Lopez
Ballpark Old Comiskey

johnr1note
09-22-2008, 07:52 AM
I find it interesting that everyone's choices for the greatest players in Chicago history seems to begin for Sox fans in 1959, and consideration for Cubs players around 1966. I realize none (or at least most) of us never saw the great players of the early 20th century, but you can analyze statistics. It becomes pretty obvious.

For example, to argue about the relative merits of who is the best second baseman in Chicago baseball history without a mention of Eddie Collins is slanderous.

For great Sox pitchers, we're going to argue that Wilbur Wood and Joel Horlen should be considered ahead of Ed Walsh and Ted Lyons?

How about Joe Jackson?

The Cubs players from those juggernaut teams of the early 20th century need to be considered. Mordecai Brown must be mentioned. Rogers Hornsby played for the Cubs for a time, you know. Talk about your great 2nd basemen. How about Gabby Hartnett at catcher?

I probably am arguing into the void about this, but if we're truly talking about the greatest Chicago players EVER, well, we need to consider the concept of the entirety of Chicago baseball history (at least the MLB era), and not just the last generation or two.

doublem23
09-22-2008, 08:20 AM
I probably am arguing into the void about this, but if we're truly talking about the greatest Chicago players EVER, well, we need to consider the concept of the entirety of Chicago baseball history (at least the MLB era), and not just the last generation or two.

:geezer:

Old players suck.

itsnotrequired
09-22-2008, 08:24 AM
:geezer:

Old players suck.

If those players were so great, how come they're dead?

kjhanson
09-22-2008, 10:59 AM
If those players were so great, how come they're dead?

Brain Anderson killed them; all of them.

jabrch
09-22-2008, 11:19 AM
Pepitone's toupé will probably make the list.

It would be second place behind Santo's rug.

Britt Burns
09-22-2008, 11:29 AM
First Base: Derrek Lee
Second Base: Manny Trillo
Third Base: Ron Santo/Aramis Ramirez
Shortstop: (Tie) Ernie Banks/Don Kessinger
Left Field: Dave Kingman
Center Field: Juan Pierre
Right Field: Koske Fukadome
Starting Pitcher: Rick Reuschel
Relief Pitcher: (Tie) Lee Smith/Bruce Sutter
Designated Hitter: Harold Baines

I have to disagree...they will pick Sosa as the DH, but exclusively for his time with the Cubs when he would DH in interleague games.

eriqjaffe
09-22-2008, 11:34 AM
I find it interesting that everyone's choices for the greatest players in Chicago history seems to begin for Sox fans in 1959, and consideration for Cubs players around 1966. I realize none (or at least most) of us never saw the great players of the early 20th century, but you can analyze statistics. It becomes pretty obvious.

For example, to argue about the relative merits of who is the best second baseman in Chicago baseball history without a mention of Eddie Collins is slanderous.

For great Sox pitchers, we're going to argue that Wilbur Wood and Joel Horlen should be considered ahead of Ed Walsh and Ted Lyons?

How about Joe Jackson?

The Cubs players from those juggernaut teams of the early 20th century need to be considered. Mordecai Brown must be mentioned. Rogers Hornsby played for the Cubs for a time, you know. Talk about your great 2nd basemen. How about Gabby Hartnett at catcher?

I probably am arguing into the void about this, but if we're truly talking about the greatest Chicago players EVER, well, we need to consider the concept of the entirety of Chicago baseball history (at least the MLB era), and not just the last generation or two.Sir, all of those players are retired or long dead. In fact, your right fielder has been dead for 130 years.

aryzner
09-22-2008, 12:56 PM
According to the WGN site, this is airing this coming Saturday in the afternoon and not tonight.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2008, 02:08 PM
According to the promo's that were running all evening Sunday during WKRP in Cincinnati and according to the Direct TV programming guide, an "All Access" Sox-Cubs special airs at 7 CST, followed by the All Time Team shown at 8PM CST Monday night.

Lip

gregoriop
09-22-2008, 02:37 PM
According to the promo's that were running all evening Sunday during WKRP in Cincinnati and according to the Direct TV programming guide, an "All Access" Sox-Cubs special airs at 7 CST, followed by the All Time Team shown at 8PM CST Monday night.

Lip


We're getting Gossip Girl/One Tree Hill on WGN proper.

aryzner
09-22-2008, 03:26 PM
Maybe it's different elsewhere, I don't know, but on http://www.wgntv.com/ on the front page it says Sept 27. I'll be jealous if you get to watch it early cuz I am looking forward to it! :P

russ99
09-22-2008, 03:27 PM
Banks over Thomas?? In my book Banks is a SS, since he played the last half of his career at 1B, including the declining years. He won his MVP as a SS...

Though I guess the same could be said about Frank as a DH.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2008, 04:46 PM
They may be releasing it differently for WGN-TV in Chicago and Superstation WGN.

Lip

alohafri
09-22-2008, 06:19 PM
According to the promo's that were running all evening Sunday during WKRP in Cincinnati and according to the Direct TV programming guide, an "All Access" Sox-Cubs special airs at 7 CST, followed by the All Time Team shown at 8PM CST Monday night.

Lip

Good. I can watch Monday Night Raw instead. It is less staged. (no teal implied) ;)

HawkDJ
09-22-2008, 06:59 PM
Finally an advantage to living out of state.

DSpivack
09-22-2008, 07:26 PM
They highlight the 7th inning stretch, make no mention of where it started. :rolleyes:

btrain929
09-22-2008, 08:08 PM
So is it official? This isn't on tonight?

DSpivack
09-22-2008, 08:17 PM
So is it official? This isn't on tonight?

It's on right now, at least on the superstation. I'm watching Heroes, though. I did switch during a commercial and saw that Blagojevich though Fergie Jenkins better than Greg Maddux; and arguments over who would be closer; Goose Gossage, Lee Smith, or Bruce Sutter.

JermaineDye05
09-22-2008, 09:49 PM
If The Carlos Quentin isn't the Left Fielder, I will have given up on the media.

DSpivack
09-22-2008, 09:53 PM
If The Carlos Quentin isn't the Left Fielder, I will have given up on the media.

Don't worry, 2 of the 3 OFs are Cubs. I noticed that 1B, 3B, SP, and the closer are all Cubs, too, but didn't see the whole thing [watching Heroes].

Nellie_Fox
09-22-2008, 11:40 PM
I watched most of it. They arrived at Cubs for pretty much every position, and ended the program trying to put Sosa at both outfield and DH, then all agreeing that Big Frank had to be on there somewhere. Randy Hundley got pissed every time someone even suggested a Sox player for any position.

guillensdisciple
09-22-2008, 11:42 PM
I watched most of it. They arrived at Cubs for pretty much every position, and ended the program trying to put Sosa at both outfield and DH, then all agreeing that Big Frank had to be on there somewhere. Randy Hundley got pissed every time someone even suggested a Sox player for any position.

Sigh you didn't teal it! Did they at least have legit reasoning behind this team other then the fact that the players are from the team given to the world as a gift (cubs)?

Nellie_Fox
09-22-2008, 11:49 PM
Sigh you didn't teal it! Did they at least have legit reasoning behind this team other then the fact that the players are from the team given to the world as a gift (cubs)?Let's see. I didn't hear the pitchers. Catcher they did give to Fisk, because he's in the HOF. First base, Ernie (even though some argued that his best years were at short) because he's in the HOF. Second was Sandberg, because he's in the HOF. Short was Aparicio, (even though they tried to put Ernie there too) because he's in the HOF (starting to see a pattern?) Third was Santo, because they all agreed he SHOULD be in the HOF. Outfield was Sosa, Williams, Shoeless Joe.

Of course, there were dissenters on all of these, but that seemed to be the consensus.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Just watched the All Time Chicago Team and I can only speak for myself but it was a waste of time. It was basically a poor man’s version of “the Sportswriters On TV” done so brilliantly by Bill Gleason, Ben Bentley, Rick Telander and Bill Jauss 25 years ago.

The program had ZERO, none, nada actual game footage not even film of the players selected. The best part of it was Dan Patrick voicing over the results and he wasn’t even part of the round table hosted by Dan Roan.

First here were the picks:

SP- Fergie Jenkins
SP- Billy Pierce
SP- Ed Walsh
SP- Greg Maddux
RP- Bruce Sutter
1B- Ernie Banks
2B- Ryne Sandberg
SS- Luis Aparicio
3B- Ron Santo
OF- Billy Williams
OF- Sammy Sosa
OF- Joe Jackson
C- Carlton Fisk
DH- Frank Thomas
Manager- Al Lopez

-------------------------

Now to “highlights” of the program (and I use that term loosely)

The picks were made by baseball writers, broadcasters, historians, former players in Chicago and around the country.

Sitting at the table were Phil Rogers, Mickey Morindini (why?), Mike Downey, Rod Blagojevich, Ron Kittle, Dan Van Dyck, Randy Hundley, Dan McGrath and Rich Lindberg. (Interesting to note, two ex-Cub players)

*When they talked about “Goose” Gossage they showed a picture of him in a Cub uniform (Naturally... he played all of one year there! I guess they couldn't be bothered to ask the Sox P.R. department for a photo, it's not like Scott Reifert doesn't have any...)

*They did actually talk to Carlton Fisk although he was used more in the previous show, “Cubs & Sox All Access”

*Phil Rogers had an interesting comment that Frank Thomas “had the yips about throwing his whole career” Naturally it wasn’t mentioned that the shoulder injury Thomas suffered as a freshman tight end at Auburn contributed mightily to his inability to throw.

*Rogers also had this amazing admission, (direct quote- talking about Sammy Sosa) “if he cheated and he probably did, he kept it hidden better then the others…” (Phil has been a staunch defender of the 'Roid Boy)

*When talking about second baseman, the final voting had Rogers Hornsby (who only played four years with the Cubs) getting 21% of the vote, Nellie Fox got 16%. (Can fans be that totally completely clueless?)

*Randy Hundley is a complete unadulterated idiot. Grade A, number #1. He actually had the stones to admonish Ron Kittle during the program for picking to many White Sox. He “grudgingly” accepted the fact that Frank Thomas had to be at DH. A complete total tool.

*Rich Lindberg, the only panelist, actually equipped to give an accurate assessment of the entire time frame of Chicago baseball wasn’t used much, probably because he was the only one who knew what the hell he was talking about.

*Blagojevich and Morandini both said the best manager in Chicago baseball history was...Lou Piniella

--------------------

They are repeating this pap nonsense Saturday and you certainly have the right to watch it if you choose…as for me, I’m reusing the tape that I recorded both shows on. It’s not worth the time or the effort to watch it again in my opinion.

Lip

Bucky F. Dent
09-23-2008, 07:21 AM
Thanks for the run-down, Lip!

Glad I missed that. Sorry you had to endure it. Next time you need a root canal, let me know. I'll sit in for you.

btrain929
09-23-2008, 09:31 AM
I could argue this list all day, but the biggest idiotic choice is RP. Sutter had the least amount of saves and the least amount of service time between Sutter, Lee, and Thigpen. I didn't use Gossage because he was only with the Cubs 1 year and only a closer for 1 year with the Sox.

Thigpen = 201 saves in 7+ years with the Sox.
Lee = 180 saves in 8 years with the Cubs.
Sutter = 133 saves in 5 years with the Cubs..........????

Give me a ****ing break.

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 09:42 AM
SP- Fergie Jenkins
SP- Billy Pierce
SP- Ed Walsh
SP- Greg Maddux
RP- Bruce Sutter
I can't argue much here, but I probably would have put Gossage as the relief pitcher, as he did play two years in Chicago.

1B- Ernie Banks
2B- Ryne Sandberg
SS- Luis Aparicio
3B- Ron Santo
This is where they really screwed up. Santo is the only correct choice (and there's no contest at third). Thomas was a better player than Banks. In fact, Thomas is the best player to suit up for either club. I also would have kept Banks at SS. I grew up to stories of Aparicio, but he's overrated. Appling is the best Sox SS of all time, but even he's not as good as Banks. Eddie Collins should be at 2B.

OF- Billy Williams
OF- Sammy Sosa
OF- Joe Jackson
They got this absolutely right. As much as I hate Sosa, he wasn't even named in the Mitchell Report. And steroids only enhanced his career, he still would have had 400 HR, easily.

C- Carlton Fisk
DH- Frank Thomas
Manager- Al Lopez
Again, not really a problem. I guess using Thomas at DH opened up 1B for Banks and SS for a White Sox player. So for those of you arguing that there is a Cubs bias, they purposely put in a DH position so that they could put Banks at 1B and a White Sox player at SS.

oeo
09-23-2008, 09:44 AM
The picks were made by baseball writers, broadcasters, historians, former players in Chicago and around the country.

Sitting at the table were Phil Rogers, Mickey Morindini (why?), Mike Downey, Rod Blagojevich, Ron Kittle, Dan Van Dyck, Randy Hundley, Dan McGrath and Rich Lindberg. (Interesting to note, two ex-Cub players)

Wow, what the hell? They expect me to take this seriously when you've got the idiot Phil Rogers, the governor of Illinois :scratch:, and former Chicago great, Mickey Morandini? Hell of a panel!

Noneck
09-23-2008, 09:48 AM
I could argue this list all day, but the biggest idiotic choice is RP. Sutter had the least amount of saves and the least amount of service time between Sutter, Lee, and Thigpen. I didn't use Gossage because he was only with the Cubs 1 year and only a closer for 1 year with the Sox.

Thigpen = 201 saves in 7+ years with the Sox.
Lee = 180 saves in 8 years with the Cubs.
Sutter = 133 saves in 5 years with the Cubs..........????

Give me a ****ing break.

None of the above. The choice should have been Hoyt Wilhelm.

asindc
09-23-2008, 09:51 AM
I watched most of it. They arrived at Cubs for pretty much every position, and ended the program trying to put Sosa at both outfield and DH, then all agreeing that Big Frank had to be on there somewhere. Randy Hundley got pissed every time someone even suggested a Sox player for any position.

I noticed that too. I used to think Hundley was among the classy Cub players from that era, but I was very wrong. He was a jerk when it came to mentioning Sox players. In fact, the only time they showed him selecting a Sox player was when he selected Fisk (his one classy moment) and Frank (as you noted, reluctantly).

asindc
09-23-2008, 09:55 AM
I can't argue much here, but I probably would have put Gossage as the relief pitcher, as he did play two years in Chicago.


This is where they really screwed up. Santo is the only correct choice (and there's no contest at third). Thomas was a better player than Banks. In fact, Thomas is the best player to suit up for either club. I also would have kept Banks at SS. I grew up to stories of Aparicio, but he's overrated. Appling is the best Sox SS of all time, but even he's not as good as Banks. Eddie Collins should be at 2B.


They got this absolutely right. As much as I hate Sosa, he wasn't even named in the Mitchell Report. And steroids only enhanced his career, he still would have had 400 HR, easily.


Again, not really a problem. I guess using Thomas at DH opened up 1B for Banks and SS for a White Sox player. So for those of you arguing that there is a Cubs bias, they purposely put in a DH position so that they could put Banks at 1B and a White Sox player at SS.

I would have selected Gossage by default as well. As effective as Thigpen and Sutter were for more years, Gossage was simply much better than either.

I would have had to flip a coin between Appling and Aparicio. Defense is still way too underrated in determining all-time greats, IMO.

The one real gripe I have is Sandburg over Collins or Fox at 2nd. I would have chosen Collins as well.

I'm glad they had the stones to choose Shoeless for the OF, and Lopez for Manager.

NoNeckEra
09-23-2008, 09:57 AM
Maddux was just 133-110 with the Cubs.

Shouldn't this be more like "career guys" with the Sox and Cubs like Williams, Santo, Banks, Thomas, Looie, Luke, Shoeless Joe, Nellie, etc?

Noneck
09-23-2008, 10:08 AM
I would have selected Gossage by default as well. As effective as Thigpen and Sutter were for more years, Gossage was simply much better than either.


You do realize that Gossage was only the closer for the Sox for 1 year? 1975

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:10 AM
Maddux was just 133-110 with the Cubs.

Shouldn't this be more like "career guys" with the Sox and Cubs like Williams, Santo, Banks, Thomas, Looie, Luke, Shoeless Joe, Nellie, etc?
Shoeless Joe wasn't a career guy. Minor quibble, I know, but it is a common misconception.

NoNeckEra
09-23-2008, 10:14 AM
Shoeless Joe wasn't a career guy. Minor quibble, I know, but it is a common misconception.

Sorry, I meant "Clueless Joe Crede".:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2008, 10:15 AM
Sorry, I meant "Clueless Joe Crede".:rolleyes:
:?:Huh?

NoNeckEra
09-23-2008, 10:19 AM
Nevermind. Good catch "Little Hurt".

btrain929
09-23-2008, 10:46 AM
I would have selected Gossage by default as well. As effective as Thigpen and Sutter were for more years, Gossage was simply much better than either.

You do realize that Gossage was only the closer for the Sox for 1 year? 1975

Thank you. Gossage was a better pitcher, but not until he left Chicago. For service time in Chicago, Thigpen was the best, with Lee Smith a close 2nd.

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2008, 10:51 AM
I grew up to stories of Aparicio, but he's overrated. Appling is the best Sox SS of all time, but even he's not as good as Banks. Only if you are a fantasy baseball player. Aparicio was the best defensive shortstop I ever saw, and he changed the game with his base stealing. But, I know, offense is all that matters.

Noneck
09-23-2008, 10:51 AM
Thank you. Gossage was a better pitcher, but not until he left Chicago. For service time in Chicago, Thigpen was the best, with Lee Smith a close 2nd.

Once again, maybe you are too young but Hoyt Wilhem was beyond compare and possibly the best ever.

doublem23
09-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Maddux was just 133-110 with the Cubs.

Shouldn't this be more like "career guys" with the Sox and Cubs like Williams, Santo, Banks, Thomas, Looie, Luke, Shoeless Joe, Nellie, etc?

Nellie Fox wasn't a career guy, either.

asindc
09-23-2008, 10:59 AM
You do realize that Gossage was only the closer for the Sox for 1 year? 1975

Yes, I knew that. And I also know he only pitched one year for the Cubs. I realize that it is a stretch to pick him over the others. I'm not putting up a strong argument here.

With regard to your Wilhelm response to another poster, I didn't see him pitch, either. I'm willing to defer when it comes to choosing a reliever.

asindc
09-23-2008, 11:01 AM
Only if you are a fantasy baseball player. Aparicio was the best defensive shortstop I ever saw, and he changed the game with his base stealing. But, I know, offense is all that matters.

Thank you. It's remarkable that this has to be noted again and again. There are many ways to prevent runs from being scored, and many ways to produce runs. Aparicio was much better at both than most.

btrain929
09-23-2008, 11:06 AM
Once again, maybe you are too young but Hoyt Wilhem was beyond compare and possibly the best ever.

Depends on what you are saying he is the best at. Closer? No. Shutdown reliever out of the pen? It looks like it based on his ERA. But save-wise, he only had 98 saves in 6 seasons. But did have amazing ERA's every year.

Noneck
09-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Depends on what you are saying he is the best at. Closer? No. Shutdown reliever out of the pen? It looks like it based on his ERA. But save-wise, he only had 98 saves in 6 seasons. But did have amazing ERA's every year.

Saves and the criteria for saves were different back then.

btrain929
09-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Saves and the criteria for saves were different back then.

Go on....

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 11:12 AM
Only if you are a fantasy baseball player. Aparicio was the best defensive shortstop I ever saw, and he changed the game with his base stealing. But, I know, offense is all that matters.
Where did I say offense is all that matters? All I'm saying is that Apping was a better SS than Aparicio (let alone that Appling also spent his whole career on the Sox, which does count for something when putting together a team like this).

I think you're overconsidering defense. Yes, Aparicio has a reputation for being better defensively than Appling (I can't really speak based on fact here, as I never saw either play), but Appling has a reputation (and the numbers to back it up) of being much better offensively.

If you have two players, one with grades of 95 on defense and 70 on offense, the other with grades of 80 and 90, respectively, why wouldn't you take the second? His grades average out to be higher (and that's not even taking into account that defense, though important, isn't quite as important as offense).

I think Appling's much superior offense more than makes up for Aparicio's better defense. His career line is .310/.399/.398. Aparicio's was .262./.311/.343. Appling would have to be the worst defensive SS of all time for Aparicio to be better overall.

(Now that I look at Banks's numbers (.274/.330/.500), I'm thinking that Appling is a lot closer to him than I previously thought. You'd could make a very compelling case that Appling is the best SS in Chicago history.)

NoNeckEra
09-23-2008, 11:13 AM
Nellie Fox wasn't a career guy, either.
You know what I meant by "Career Guy".

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 11:14 AM
Saves and the criteria for saves were different back then.
I don't believe the criteria was much different back then, rather that saves weren't considered as important.

Wilhelm (and Gossage and Sutter and Quisenberry and Fingers) would be brought in during the most important situations, which would often be when the game was tied, or when his team was trailing by a run, or before the ninth inning (so he would't wind up finishing the game), all of which are non-save situations. These days, managers (cough, Scoiscia, cough) treat closers as if they can only come in when they have the opportunity to get a save, probably costing themselves other wins in the process.

Noneck
09-23-2008, 11:52 AM
I don't believe the criteria was much different back then, rather that saves weren't considered as important.

Wilhelm (and Gossage and Sutter and Quisenberry and Fingers) would be brought in during the most important situations, which would often be when the game was tied, or when his team was trailing by a run, or before the ninth inning (so he would't wind up finishing the game), all of which are non-save situations. These days, managers (cough, Scoiscia, cough) treat closers as if they can only come in when they have the opportunity to get a save, probably costing themselves other wins in the process.

I agree with you and the situations that "closers" were brought in the past were different than today. The criteria has changed over the years but how the premier relief pitchers was used would skew the save stats as they are calculated today. More info on this is at the following

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save

Lip Man 1
09-23-2008, 11:57 AM
Reading for thought. Check out the numbers at a time when saves weren't as common:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=1799

Hoyt Wilhelm was the finest relief pitcher to ever wear a Chicago uniform and the discussion isn't even close. His ERA with the Sox year after year after year throwing NOTHING but a knuckleball ends all discussion along with his number of innings pitched.

Lip

btrain929
09-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Reading for thought. Check out the numbers at a time when saves weren't as common:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=1799

Hoyt Wilhelm was the finest relief pitcher to ever wear a Chicago uniform and the discussion isn't even close.

Lip

Since you watched the show, did they even mention Wilhelm's name, along with others as possibles for the Chicago RP? Or did they just say Sutter, his stats, and move on?

barryball
09-23-2008, 12:08 PM
Below were the picks and even though I live and breath all WhiteSox you can see where the Cubs had better players at certain positions.

The final picks are below

SP- Fergie Jenkins
SP- Billy Pierce
SP- Ed Walsh
SP- Greg Maddux
RP- Bruce Sutter
1B- Ernie Banks
2B- Ryne Sandberg
SS- Luis Aparicio
3B- Ron Santo
OF- Billy Williams
OF- Sammy Sosa
OF- Joe Jackson
C- Carlton Fisk
DH- Frank Thomas
Manager- Al Lopez

My comments:
SP's - This seems like fair pickings...does Ted Lyons deserve merit here?

RP - I would have to agree Sutter is the best. Thigpen career with the Sox was short and Lee Smith was probbaly better as well than Thiggy

1B - Ernie is on the team at either SS or 1B and think this is the better spot for him

2B - Eddie Collins (12 years with the sox) post-modern era would get this hands-down but Sandberg is very deserving as well. Nellie Fox is nice but is 3rd best in this group

3B - Santo wins here and Ventura is second best followed by Crede and maybe

SS - This goes to Appling and Aparicio

OF - Joe Jackson, Billy Williams, Ordonez or Baines. I leave Sosa out for being a Roids boy

C - Fisk huntley or Sauer a distant second

DH - Thomas no comparison

Manager - Larusss or Lopez

asindc
09-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Since you watched the show, did they even mention Wilhelm's name, along with others as possibles for the Chicago RP? Or did they just say Sutter, his stats, and move on?

I don't recall hearing Wilhelm's name, but I might have missed it.

btrain929
09-23-2008, 12:12 PM
Below were the picks and even though I live and breath all WhiteSox you can see where the Cubs had better players at certain positions.

The final picks are below

SP- Fergie Jenkins
SP- Billy Pierce
SP- Ed Walsh
SP- Greg Maddux
RP- Bruce Sutter
1B- Ernie Banks
2B- Ryne Sandberg
SS- Luis Aparicio
3B- Ron Santo
OF- Billy Williams
OF- Sammy Sosa
OF- Joe Jackson
C- Carlton Fisk
DH- Frank Thomas
Manager- Al Lopez

My comments:
SP's - This seems like fair pickings...does Ted Lyons deserve merit here?

RP - I would have to agree Sutter is the best. Thigpen career with the Sox was short and Lee Smith was probbaly better as well than Thiggy

1B - Ernie is on the team at either SS or 1B and think this is the better spot for him

2B - Eddie Collins (12 years with the sox) post-modern era would get this hands-down but Sandberg is very deserving as well. Nellie Fox is nice but is 3rd best in this group

3B - Santo wins here and Ventura is second best followed by Crede and maybe

SS - This goes to Appling and Aparicio

OF - Joe Jackson, Billy Williams, Ordonez or Baines. I leave Sosa out for being a Roids boy

C - Fisk huntley or Sauer a distant second

DH - Thomas no comparison

Manager - Larusss or Lopez

Sutter & Ordonez = No.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2008, 12:13 PM
It was on the ballot and mentioned by one of the round table guys briefly.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2008, 01:03 PM
I think Appling's much superior offense more than makes up for Aparicio's better defense. His career line is .310/.399/.398. Aparicio's was .262./.311/.343. Appling would have to be the worst defensive SS of all time for Aparicio to be better overall.And where do you factor in leading the league in stolen bases for nine consecutive seasons? Tack all of those extra bases onto his slugging percentage.

WhiteSox5187
09-23-2008, 01:20 PM
Sutter & Ordonez = No.
Sutter probably belongs in the discussion of best Chicago relievers, as does Lee Smith. At the end of the day though I'd take Wilhelm and Goosage over them in a heartbeat. I'd also take Harold over Sosa in a heartbeat. Harold was a damn good fielder before he ruined his knees, Sosa...not so much.

WhiteSox5187
09-23-2008, 01:21 PM
And where do you factor in leading the league in stolen bases for nine consecutive seasons? Tack all of those extra bases onto his slugging percentage.
Where have you been? Don't you know stolen bases are an overrated stat??

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2008, 01:43 PM
...I'd also take Harold over Sosa in a heartbeat. Harold was a damn good fielder before he ruined his knees, Sosa...not so much.But, but, but, all those home runs!

WhiteSox5187
09-23-2008, 01:45 PM
But, but, but, all those home runs!
Let's not forget the kisses and the hops too!

And the cork.

btrain929
09-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Sutter probably belongs in the discussion of best Chicago relievers, as does Lee Smith. At the end of the day though I'd take Wilhelm and Goosage over them in a heartbeat. I'd also take Harold over Sosa in a heartbeat. Harold was a damn good fielder before he ruined his knees, Sosa...not so much.

I would say about 95% of Gossage's success was after he left Chicago.

ode to veeck
09-23-2008, 02:03 PM
What no Eddie Collins?! This poll sucks. Eddie's numbers are staggering: 3300+ H, .424 obp, 744 SB, 100 more sac hits than anyone who ever played, more games at 2B than anyone ever, etc. Bill James' win share approach listed Eddie as greatest 2B in the history of the game, let alone Sox and Scrubs.

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 02:13 PM
And where do you factor in leading the league in stolen bases for nine consecutive seasons? Tack all of those extra bases onto his slugging percentage.
(EDIT: Nowhere did I mention HR with regards to the SS position, until the very end of the following post. Insinuating that I am choosing players based on HR alone is a strawman argument. In fact, Appling hit for very little power, and I'm advocating his place on the team.)

OK, I'll do just what you suggest.

Luis Aparicio, career:
3504 TB
10230 AB
.343 SLG

506 SB
136 CS

If we add 506 bases to his TB, we're at:
4010 TB+
10230 AB
.392 SLG+

That's closer to Appling.

However, Aparico got caught 136 times. Let's put that into SLG, see how he comes out:
3874 TB+
10230 AB
.379 SLG

OK... so using just SB, Aparicio comes out with a .392 SLG+. If we factor in CS as well, it's .379.

Repeat for Appling and Banks:

Player - Standard - w/SB - w/CS
Appling - .398 - .419 - .406
Banks - .500 - .505 - .499

So Appling and Banks still outslug Aparicio by a good amount.

Now, I actually like calculating SLG without CS, as those aren't really negative total bases. Really, they are more of an true out, which affects OBP (if a player gets a hit but gets caught stealing, he's no longer on base for the batters that follow him, is he?).

The new SLG doesn't take walks into account (and they get you as many bases as a SB does), but I'll leave them out for now for expediency.

Player - Standard OBP/SLG - OBP-CS/SLG+SB
Aparicio - .311/.343 - .294/.392
Appling - .399/.398 - .386/.419
Banks - .330/.500 - .324/.505

This method hurts Banks the most. I'd now lean towards Appling as the best SS. All Banks really has going for him over Appling is HR, and Appling was excellent at not making outs.

If you want to count SB to increase slugging for a player, you have to live with couting CS somehow. OBP seemed the most intuitive place to do so, as OBP measures a player's ability to not make outs, and getting caught stealing is making an out.

I'm not saying Aparicio wasn't a good player, or that he doesn't deserve mention (I'd definitely keep him on this team as a defensive replacement/pinch runner/spot starter), just that both Appling and Banks were better shortstops.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2008, 02:17 PM
Ode:

Rich Lindberg during the show made a strong case for Collins going so far as to say he was probably the best ever in the city...better then Sandberg, better then Fox.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2008, 02:27 PM
(EDIT: Nowhere did I mention HR with regards to the SS position, until the very end of the following post. Insinuating that I am choosing players based on HR alone is a strawman argument. In fact, Appling hit for very little power, and I'm advocating his place on the team.)I didn't mention home runs for shortstop either. I said offense.

Now, I actually like calculating SLG without CS, as those aren't really negative total bases. Really, they are more of an true out, which affects OBP (if a player gets a hit but gets caught stealing, he's no longer on base for the batters that follow him, is he?)Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if a player gets thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double or a double into a triple his base still counts in OBP and SLG.

I'm not saying Aparicio wasn't a good player, or that he doesn't deserve mention (I'd definitely keep him on this team as a defensive replacement/pinch runner/spot starter), just that both Appling and Banks were better shortstops.So just how close does Aparicio have to get offensively before you'll consider his outstanding defense to make up the difference?

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 02:49 PM
I didn't mention home runs for shortstop either. I said offense.
Ah, I see. You were responding to the Sosa-over-Baines comment someone made. My apologies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if a player gets thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double or a double into a triple his base still counts in OBP and SLG.
Correct, which is actually a problem. Strangely enough, this causes "scrappy" players with poor numbers to be even worse than numbers would suggest (though it's often argued in the opposite way).

And my calculations were in no way trying to mimic anything official; I was just responding to your point about counting SB as total bases.

So just how close does Aparicio have to get offensively before you'll consider his outstanding defense to make up the difference?
This sounds stupid, but closer than he is. The gulf in OBP is huge. Aparicio's OBP of .311 is below league average. Appling's OBP of .399 is very far above league average.

Defense matters more at SS than at any other position, but you can also argue that being an above average offensive player (note that I did not say "above average offensive shortstop") is more valuable at SS than any other position.

I believe you that Aparicio was a very good defensive SS. But how good was Appling? Did you ever see him play? Since there are no good quantitative methods to judge defensive players, especially from their eras, we have to go by what we remember.

Now, it could very well be that Appling was 2008-Griffey-in-CF bad. In that case, picking Aparicio would make sense, as his defensive prowess would make up for his offensive failings. However, we don't know how good Appling was. You're essentially saying, "Aparicio was very good defensively, and that makes up for Appling's better offensive production," without actually knowing how much better Aparicio was than Appling in the field.

To sum up what I'm trying to say:
I'll concede your point (though I'm going by only your word) that Aparicio was an "A+" defender. Appling was pretty clearly an "A" hitter. Aparicio was about a "C" hitter. If we weight defense and offense equally (which itself is an iffy proposition), as long as Appling was at least a "C+" defender, they average out to have equal grades. We don't know what grade to give Appling though. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was at least an average defender, so giving him a "C+" grade is not much of a stretch.

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2008, 03:05 PM
If we weight defense and offense equally (which itself is an iffy proposition), as long as Appling was at least a "C+" defender, they average out to have equal grades. We don't know what grade to give Appling though. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was at least an average defender, so giving him a "C+" grade is not much of a stretch.There's the difference. I consider, and always will, shortstop to be a "defense first" position, and not equally weighted with offense.

Of course, since we're dealing with opinion on a "who's better" question, there can be no right or wrong, just a difference.

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 03:15 PM
There's the difference. I consider, and always will, shortstop to be a "defense first" position, and not equally weighted with offense.

Of course, since we're dealing with opinion on a "who's better" question, there can be no right or wrong, just a difference.
I don't know if I necessarily consider it an "offense first" position, though. I meant to say before, that your question shouldn't be "how much better would Aparicio need to be on offense", but rather "just how bad would Appling need to be on defense".

The problem with making choices based on defense is that there is very little evidence to use when making your judgement. You remember seeing that Aparicio was excellent in the field. I don't doubt your observations. But did you see every play? Do you remember the bad plays, or the balls he just didn't get to?

The average fan thinks Derek Jeter is a good defensive SS because they remember a few highlight-reel plays he's made. They don't remember all the balls to his left that went through for singles because he has almost no range to that side.

Now, I'm not saying Aparicio is like that. For all we know, your memories are a representative sample of all his chances. But we also don't know about Appling. I'm not willing to put Aparicio on this team just because he's so much better defensively, when we don't know how good Appling was. As long as Appling was an asset in the field, and not a liability, his offensive numbers push him ahead of Aparicio.

(OLD VERSION: Think of it this way: since 2000, would you rather have had Derek Jeter, an excellent hitting, below-average fielding SS, or Adam Everett, a poor-hitting, but excellent-fielding SS. If you go solely by defense, you would take Everett. But I'd be shocked if I found a single person who knows baseball that wouldn't take Jeter. He's the better player.)

NEW VERSION: Think of it this way: since 2000, would you rather have had Derek Jeter, an excellent hitting, below-average fielding SS, or Orlando Cabrera, an average-to-below-average-hitting, but excellent-fielding SS. If you go solely by defense, you would take Cabrera. But I'd be shocked if I found a single person who knows baseball that wouldn't take Jeter. He's the better player.

Paulwny
09-23-2008, 03:23 PM
Think of it this way: since 2000, would you rather have had Derek Jeter, an excellent hitting, below-average fielding SS, or Adam Everett, a poor-hitting, but excellent-fielding SS. If you go solely by defense, you would take Everett. But I'd be shocked if I found a single person who knows baseball that wouldn't take Jeter. He's the better player.

Bad comparison,
Appling and Aparicio both HOF, tough comparing.
Jeter a future HOF, Everett just another ball player .

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 03:53 PM
Bad comparison,
Appling and Aparicio both HOF, tough comparing.
Jeter a future HOF, Everett just another ball player .
I didn't mean to have Aparicio:Appling::Everett:Jeter. I meant to counter Nellie's defense-first argument.

And Everett is not "just another ball player". He has been the best defensive SS over the last half-decade. Ozzie Smith got into the Hall of Fame being a defense-first SS. Everett's just not as flashy.

I suppose a better example, though, would have been Orlando Cabrera. An average-to-below-average hitter, like Aparacio, but a top tier defensive SS. Would anyone take Cabrera over Jeter (ignoring salary and personality, as we have no idea what Aparicio and Appling would have been like today in those areas)? (I've added this example to my previous post.)

WhiteSox5187
09-23-2008, 04:43 PM
I would say about 95% of Gossage's success was after he left Chicago.
He had some pretty good years in Chicago, it's not his fault he was on an awful team for some of those years.

Noneck
09-23-2008, 04:51 PM
He had some pretty good years in Chicago, it's not his fault he was on an awful team for some of those years.
He was only a closer 1 year as a Sox, 1975. Didn't I already say that?

TornLabrum
09-23-2008, 05:59 PM
My take from watching players on both sides of town for 50 years:

SP- Fergie Jenkins - You can't argue with those six consecutive 20-game seasons. That's a phenomenal accomplishment. It's hard to believe that after that he didn't win 300 games.

SP- Billy Pierce - Best lefty I've seen in a Chicago uniform. If he had pitched for the Sox and Whitey Ford for the Yankees, it would be Pierce in the HOF. On the other hand, Teddy Lyons was a terrific pitcher who would have won 300 games if he hadn't pitched on so many crappy teams.

SP- Ed Walsh - Walsh or Brown. It has to be one of them if we're going to choose a pitcher from that era. I'll go with Walsh, but I'm biased. My grandpa told me stories about him.

SP- Greg Maddux - Maddux was too good for the Cubs. So good they had to let him go. He had more good years with other teams, and that's an argument against his selection to this team. I'd go with Red Faber instead, but then again, that puts two spitballers on the team.

RP- Bruce Sutter - This choice is utter bull****. Hoyt Wilhelm is the best relief pitcher to wear a Chicago uniform, and he wore both of them. Dr. Wilhelm's traveling medicine show was legendary.

1B- Ernie Banks - He has to be in at first or shortstop. He was a better offensive player as a shortstop, but most of the legendary Sox shortstops were better defensively than Banks, although Banks wasn't bad.

2B- Ryne Sandberg - Again, utter bull****. Eddie Collins may be the best second baseman ever.

SS- Luis Aparicio - I'd probably go with Appling because of his bat, but Aparicio is the best defensive shortstop ever to wear a Chicago uniform.

3B- Ron Santo - I'm reminded of the title of one of Rich Lindberg's books about the Sox. Who's on Third. Indeed. Honorable mention goes to Stan Hack just because he's the first Cubs manager I remember, and besides, he looked like Robert Young.

OF- Billy Williams - I'll take him or Minnie.

OF- Sammy Sosa - This is something up with which I will not put. No steroid enhanced cheat makes my team. This club doesn't have a centerfielder, so let's do the right thing and put in Jim Landis or Ken Berry.

OF- Joe Jackson - I happent to think Shoeless Joe didn't cheat. I'll take him or Harold for my third outfielder.

C- Carlton Fisk - Without a doubt.

DH- Frank Thomas - The greatest player to ever wear a Chicago uniform. Putting Sosa on the same team with this guy is a disgrace.

Manager- Al Lopez - Better than Frank Chance? Chance won more World Series than he did. How about Joe McCarthy? Well Joe wasn't in Chicago all that long. Jimmie Dykes was, but he never placed higher than third place. So I'd say Lopez or Chance. Since I'm a Sox fan: Lopez.

Tragg
09-23-2008, 06:23 PM
As much as I hate Sosa, he wasn't even named in the Mitchell Report. And steroids only enhanced his career, he still would have had 400 HR, easily.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They could have put Dawson or Baines on there.

Eddie Collins has to be on that team.

I'd put the Good Doctor before Sutter.

Santo is embarassing, but even more embarassing is that he's the best 3B in Chicago history.

Eddo144
09-23-2008, 06:42 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They could have put Dawson or Baines on there.

Eddie Collins has to be on that team.

I'd put the Good Doctor before Sutter.

Santo is embarassing, but even more embarassing is that he's the best 3B in Chicago history.
Compared to greats at other positions, Santo is kind of an embarrassment. Yet, oddly, throughout the history of baseball, there haven't been as many great third baseman as just about every other position.

Bobby Jenks
09-23-2008, 09:05 PM
I'm really surprised that Dawson was left off. And what about Early Wynn? Granted he wasn't here for a lot of years,but he was veru successful, none the less

NoNeckEra
09-23-2008, 09:40 PM
My take from watching players on both sides of town for 50 years:
OF- Sammy Sosa - This is something up with which I will not put. No steroid enhanced cheat makes my team. This club doesn't have a centerfielder, so let's do the right thing and put in Jim Landis or Ken Berry.

Torn:
I enjoyed your post (especially about Hoyt Wilhelm), but you lost me on Landis & Ken Berry. Neither of those guys would make my top 10 for the Sox, let alone Chicago, unless you're talking DEFENSE only. Neither of these guys could hit a lick.