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thomas35forever
09-20-2008, 08:44 PM
Tough one to lose. Tomorrow's proven to be huge.

ms620
09-20-2008, 08:44 PM
Sox got beat by a pretty good pitcher. Not much more to it.

turners56
09-20-2008, 08:45 PM
Nice try in the 9th. We were feet away from tying it up.

turners56
09-20-2008, 08:45 PM
Sox got beat by an average pitcher. Not much more to it.

Fixed it for ya.

JB98
09-20-2008, 08:46 PM
Sigh...try to win tomorrow.

Why can't the Sox hit on the road?

beasly213
09-20-2008, 08:47 PM
Fixed it for ya.

Agreed. How many times has Thome struck out to end the game or an inning?

In his entire Sox career I've seen 2 clutch home runs and or hits from him.

Not all his fault this game at all I'm just saying.

Offense played like dog ****.

FedEx227
09-20-2008, 08:47 PM
Sox got beat by a pretty good pitcher. Not much more to it.

Not true.

Davies sports a career 5.74 ERA.

We hit like ****, plain and simple.

LoveYourSuit
09-20-2008, 08:47 PM
The thread title is the story of the season..... wait for everyone else to collapse behind us so we can win.

God forbid we take matters into our hands.


4 ****ing hits!!!

Corpseball!!!

BigP50
09-20-2008, 08:48 PM
man tomorrow's game's (Sox @ Royals AND Twins @ Rays) are going to be so huge.

I mean the diiference between a 2.5 game lead and a 3.5 game is lead is giant

realflava23
09-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Ah so close by Dye.

turners56
09-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Sigh...try to win tomorrow.

Why can't the Sox hit on the road?

Good question. Why can't teams win on the road this year period?

We might lose another series to these sorry Royals tomorrow if Danks isn't on his game. I was worried that Gavin might pitch bad, but that wasn't exactly the case. He did have a nice streak of batters retired.

Our offense has to realize that we need to win to win the division, not hope that the Twins lose. We had an opportunity to increase our lead tonight to a point where we would all be comfortable with our position in the standings. 2.5 games isn't bad, but 3.5 is just security in everybody's hearts.

Oh and about that 9th inning. When I saw Teahen turn around on Dye's fly ball, I thought it was gone. Guess not...*sigh.

LoveYourSuit
09-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Sigh...try to win tomorrow.

Why can't the Sox hit on the road?


Scarry when you will be starting the post season with 2 games on the road when 3 games is all it takes to beat us.

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Absolutely disgusting game. Floyd, on 3 days rest, was pretty good into the 7th. The Royals then picked up 2 more. Sure enough, the 5 run lead was enough to sorta wake up the offense. Dye juuuuuust missed one to tie it in the nith, and that was that.

I guess we can count on Kyle Davies competing for the Cy Young the next 10 years, along with Radhames Liz, John Wasdin, and Michael Bowden.

ms620
09-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Not true.

Davies sports a career 5.74 ERA.

We hit like ****, plain and simple.

Most people here are clueless. Davies is a young pitcher, as he jsut turned 25. Take a look at his game logs:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7501/gamelog;_ylt=Au9jsvaJIFZn4g0jtbb7GlCFCLcF?year=200 8

He has been pretty consistant, and take away 2 poor outings, and his ERA is well under 4. He also did something Javy can't do, and that is win in New York. He is not Cy Young, bu tpeople see his name, do not really know who he is, see he is on KC, and think he must stink. That is not the case.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 08:51 PM
this is for ms620 since he called me a clueless idiot in the game thread:

What are you talking about? Do you know that the chances of hitting a home run are much lower then of getting a hit. I am afraid it is logic like this that has allowed the White Sox to continue harboring home run hitting clubs for the past 8 years (except for the 05 team which would have won this game with good hitting to tie it up and a dramatic home run to win it) and come up short many times. Dye hits a single we get one run in. You move the chain. Thome is then under less pressure. Instead you have JD going for the game tying run, how can you call that clueless, it is perfectly logical. What do you know about baseball?

You want to win you have to mix all facets of the game. You need power, you need speed, and you need pitching. The white sox have power. That is it. They don't hit for average, they don't get on base often enough and when they do they have trouble driving people in. The White Sox have explosions that they can sustain for some time. Have you asked yourself if they can sustain this kind of baseball to win 11 games in the playoffs against EXTREMELY good pitching.


Answer me this or am I still being clueless?

turners56
09-20-2008, 08:52 PM
Absolutely disgusting game. Floyd, on 3 days rest, was pretty good into the 7th. The Royals then picked up 2 more. Sure enough, the 5 run lead was enough to sorta wake up the offense. Dye juuuuuust missed one to tie it in the nith, and that was that.

I guess we can count on Kyle Davies competing for the Cy Young the next 10 years, along with Radhames Liz, John Wasdin, and Michael Bowden.

Dye had two pitches to just crush in that AB against Soria. He fouled the first one off and then just missed the second. Obviously, Soria wasn't on his game at all. We missed an opportunity to put a hurting on him.

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 08:52 PM
man tomorrow's game's (Sox @ Royals AND Twins @ Rays) are going to be so huge.

I mean the diiference between a 2.5 game lead and a 3.5 game is lead is giantAnd it would have been nice to win tonight and make sure we went into the dome up by at least 2.5. Lets hope the Rays keep their eyes on the prize tomorrow and take it to Liriano, because we will probably be taking it ourselves from Brandon Duckworth.

LoveYourSuit
09-20-2008, 08:52 PM
Most people here are clueless. Davies is a young pitcher, as he jsut turned 25. Take a look at his game logs:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7501/gamelog;_ylt=Au9jsvaJIFZn4g0jtbb7GlCFCLcF?year=200 8

He has been pretty consistant, and take away 2 poor outings, and his ERA is well under 4. He also did something Javy can't do, and that is win in New York. He is not Cy Young, bu tpeople see his name, do not really know who he is, see he is on KC, and think he must stink. That is not the case.


When you claim to be an "elite" team, you should feast on this kind of guy.

No excuses. The Sox offense sucked tonight.

ms620
09-20-2008, 08:53 PM
this is for ms620 since he called me a clueless idiot in the game thread:

What are you talking about? Do you know that the chances of hitting a home run are much lower then of getting a hit. I am afraid it is logic like this that has allowed the White Sox to continue harboring home run hitting clubs for the past 8 years (except for the 05 team which would have won this game with good hitting to tie it up and a dramatic home run to win it) and come up short many times. Dye hits a single we get one run in. You move the chain. Thome is then under less pressure. Instead you have JD going for the game tying run, how can you call that clueless, it is perfectly logical. What do you know about baseball?

You want to win you have to mix all facets of the game. You need power, you need speed, and you need pitching. The white sox have power. That is it. They don't hit for average, they don't get on base often enough and when they do they have trouble driving people in. The White Sox have explosions that they can sustain for some time. Have you asked yourself if they can sustain this kind of baseball to win 11 games in the playoffs against EXTREMELY good pitching.


Answer me this or am I still being clueless?

With the current state of the White Sox, and the fact that Soria is a dominant closer, what is more likely:

Hitting a 3 run homer, or putting together a string of hits?

Also, asking these White Sox to put together a string of hits is like asking Konerko, Dye, etc. to bunt. They struggle at doingit, so why try. Stick to what your good at. Live and die by it. NExt year, assemble a team that does not need to rely on the home run. But for this season, you have to.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 08:53 PM
Absolutely disgusting game. Floyd, on 3 days rest, was pretty good into the 7th. The Royals then picked up 2 more. Sure enough, the 5 run lead was enough to sorta wake up the offense. Dye juuuuuust missed one to tie it in the nith, and that was that.

I guess we can count on Kyle Davies competing for the Cy Young the next 10 years, along with Radhames Liz, John Wasdin, and Michael Bowden.

Don't forget Phil Hughes.

ms620
09-20-2008, 08:54 PM
When you claim to be an "elite" team, you should feast on this kind of guy.

No excuses. The Sox offense sucked tonight.

I guess Tampa is not "Elite" since Davies beat them too.

turners56
09-20-2008, 08:56 PM
Most people here are clueless. Davies is a young pitcher, as he jsut turned 25. Take a look at his game logs:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7501/gamelog;_ylt=Au9jsvaJIFZn4g0jtbb7GlCFCLcF?year=200 8

He has been pretty consistant, and take away 2 poor outings, and his ERA is well under 4. He also did something Javy can't do, and that is win in New York. He is not Cy Young, bu tpeople see his name, do not really know who he is, see he is on KC, and think he must stink. That is not the case.

Average doesn't mean he stinks. He's is not a good pitcher, he is not a pretty good pitcher. He's a pitcher who failed in Atlanta (under one of the best pitching coaches in baseball) and has failed for most of his career.

This season is his first decent season. But he has yet to prove himself as a CONSISTENT pitcher. He will have his good starts (like tonight) on occasion and he will have his bad starts. He is not a shut down pitcher who can get the win when his team needs one. He is not a GOOD pitcher. His 4.04 ERA says that he is a barely above average pitcher. But based on his resume and his 5 career ERA, it's absolutely fair to say that he is average.

chisoxfanatic
09-20-2008, 08:56 PM
JD looked extremely pissed in the dugout after missing that one by inches. He's been pressing for the whole month. I was hoping Teahen would crash into the bullpen door, which looked ajar, and at least miss that.

We can STILL clinch at the Baggie Dome; but, if we don't have a Sox win and a Twins loss tomorrow, that can only happen with a sweep there.

I'm hoping we don't get corpseball in Soxtober. :(

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 08:56 PM
Don't forget Phil Hughes.I was considering putting him on the list, but he actually might be a respectable pitcher someday. He is above being on the White Sox' Cy Young list.

southsideirish71
09-20-2008, 08:57 PM
My favorite is when Hawk starts the PR machine late in the game, when he realizes that people might question our offense against such a bad pitcher.

"Well Fiesty, people constantly get on Walk for having a bunch of guys go for the fences, thats far from the truth. The problem Walk says is when they do go for the fences, they dont have men on. They fixed that this year. And its not that they are purposesly swinging for the fence. its that they have strong men, strong men swing hard and hit home runs. "

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 09:00 PM
With the current state of the White Sox, and the fact that Soria is a dominant closer, what is more likely:

Hitting a 3 run homer, or putting together a string of hits?

Also, asking these White Sox to put together a string of hits is like asking Konerko, Dye, etc. to bunt. They struggle at doingit, so why try. Stick to what your good at. Live and die by it. NExt year, assemble a team that does not need to rely on the home run. But for this season, you have to.

With the way the White Sox play it would be the home run? I am not arguing that but I remember Hawk saying that it is the home run that could be the ultimate rally killer. The Sox had two men on base and it seemed like things were turning for good. A.J. reached on an error, two men on base against Soria. He was missing his spots. He was throwing pitches that could be hit. JD almost crushed it because he got a pitch that he should have crushed but if he hadn't who knows what happens. Soria's mentalty changes, team mentality changes, the game is just different. Yes the sox might lose 5-3. With Dye being the only one who hit but assuming he did make contact the chain moves and the sox could have extended the game. Who knows they might have won it with a three run homer. Consecutive hits open up games, the sox can't do that.

cws05champ
09-20-2008, 09:01 PM
Pathetic offensive performance. Plain and simple. How about a couple XB hits in a row? We should be up 3.5 by now. Nothing more to say....

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 09:02 PM
My favorite is when Hawk starts the PR machine late in the game, when he realizes that people might question our offense against such a bad pitcher.

"Well Fiesty, people constantly get on Walk for having a bunch of guys go for the fences, thats far from the truth. The problem Walk says is when they do go for the fences, they dont have men on. They fixed that this year. And its not that they are purposesly swinging for the fence. its that they have strong men, strong men swing hard and hit home runs. "
:lol:
I missed that one. As I pointed out in the game thread, Hawk had finally been honestly lately. There were moments when he was practically screaming at the team in recent weeks. He was calling a spade a spade, and saying they were playing like crap.

I guess with our magic number going down 3 in less than 24 hours, he was back in his happy smiley mood. When Davies is on, he is unhittable, we ran into the wrong pitcher on the wrong day, and so on.

ms620
09-20-2008, 09:03 PM
Average doesn't mean he stinks. He's is not a good pitcher, he is not a pretty good pitcher. He's a pitcher who failed in Atlanta (under one of the best pitching coaches in baseball) and has failed for most of his career.

This season is his first decent season. But he has yet to prove himself as a CONSISTENT pitcher. He will have his good starts (like tonight) on occasion and he will have his bad starts. He is not a shut down pitcher who can get the win when his team needs one. He is not a GOOD pitcher. His 4.04 ERA says that he is a barely above average pitcher. But based on his resume and his 5 career ERA, it's absolutely fair to say that he is average.

Gavin Floyd has a career ERA of 4.98. After tonight, it is probable over 5. However, ERA does not tell the entire story. Take out 2 very poor outings for Davies, which accounted for 12 ER in about 5 innings, and his ERA in his other starts is under 3.5. He also has given up 3 ER or less in 15 of 19 starts. I would take that any day.

ms620
09-20-2008, 09:03 PM
Consecutive hits open up games, the sox can't do that.

That is my point. You want JD to swing for the fences there. That is the Sox only hope.

Woofer
09-20-2008, 09:05 PM
I think that Tampa Bay is going to be playing hung over tomorrow, I think that Minnesota will win. The Sox knew early on that they could have gained ground, and they failed tonight. Let's hope they can win tomorrow, and try to get a few in that dome from hell.:angry:

LoveYourSuit
09-20-2008, 09:06 PM
Just in September alone we have played dead for about 6-7 games. We split those and this division is in our pocket already.


Instead, we allow the Twins to continue to breathe and they have the last bullet in them with 3 games in their trashy dome.

This is so frustrating.

chisoxfanatic
09-20-2008, 09:06 PM
I think that Tampa Bay is going to be playing hung over tomorrow, I think that Minnesota will win. The Sox knew early on that they could have gained ground, and they failed tonight. Let's hope they can win tomorrow, and try to get a few in that dome from hell.:angry:
Tampa still hasn't clinched their division. They want that division badly. Sonnanstine's gonna be throwing fire. It would be nice for the Magic # to go down to 4 tomorrow. I'd love to have a chance to clinch up in the Baggie Dome without needing a sweep.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 09:08 PM
That is my point. You want JD to swing for the fences there. That is the Sox only hope.

I understand that but J.D. has never been the power hitter he has always come up with big doubles when we needed them but for some reason he aimed for the fences. He might be pressing now that he has to fill the void left by Quentin.

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Le horror. :puking::puking:


Out-classed by the hungrier Royals in every respect.

Between

1) the 3-day-rested Floyd meatballing it up.
2) Walkerball against a one-dimensional bum like Davies, complete with a pseudo-rally (aka 'loser's lament') at the end.
3) More awful fundamentals, including Dye misplaying a ball into inside-the-park HR, with Griffey not even bothering to move, just as he didn't on a double by Guillen earlier.... "CF" Swisher showing off blazing wheels again by being out on a would-be error by Gordon... Boone Logan jog to 1st base.... Momentum-killing DP back when the game was still scoreless.

Great job giving Minnesota hope. ****


.

ms620
09-20-2008, 09:09 PM
I understand that but J.D. has never been the power hitter he has always come up with big doubles when we needed them but for some reason he aimed for the fences. He might be pressing now that he has to fill the void left by Quentin.

Please stop. Seriously. Never been the power hitter? Never has had big homers? Wow, have you been a White Sox fan since September?

Woofer
09-20-2008, 09:10 PM
Do not forget that in 2005, we ended any postseason hope that Cleveland had, by sweeping them at home to end the regular season. They will try to return the favor to us if they get the chance to. This is the scenario that I have dreaded for weeks, and this is where it is going to end up.

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 09:12 PM
1) the 3-day-rested Floyd meatballing it up.
2) Walkerball against a one-dimensional bum like Davies, complete with a pseudo-rally (aka 'loser's lament') at the end.
3) More awful fundamentals, including Dye misplaying a ball into inside-the-park HR, with Griffey not even bothering to move, just as he didn't on a double by Guillen earlier.... "CF" Swisher showing off blazing wheels again by being out on a would-be error by Gordon... Boone Logan jog to 1st base.... Momentum-killing DP back when the game was still scoreless.

Great job giving Minnesota hope. ****
Floyd wasn't that bad. He fought today. The homer to Gordon and the one in the 7th were bad, but the one to DeJesus was made entirely by Dye going to hard for a ball he had no chance to catch, slamming into the wall, and then doing a ridiculous backwards somersault. And of course, the 5th run he gave up was let in by Logan. But it doesn't matter. Floyd could have pitched a gem and get stuck with the loss tonight.

TomBradley72
09-20-2008, 09:13 PM
2) Kennyball against a one-dimensional bum like Davies, complete with a pseudo-rally (aka 'loser's lament') at the end.


.

Fixed it.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Please stop. Seriously. Never been the power hitter? Never has had big homers? Wow, have you been a White Sox fan since September?

I think you are taking his 320 foot shots to right field as some sign of power. He IS NOT A POWER HITTER. He makes solid contact and if goes over it goes over. Power hitter: Jim Thome, Paul Konerko, and Carlos Quentin. Jermaine is a hitter. He will get those in the gaps doubles, he will get well hit singles, and he will get that home run. The home run isn't hit because he is a power hitter, he just made enough contact and hit it the right way. Damn man, if anyone on the sox can make contact it would be him, Cabrera, or Ramirez. Stop insulting other peoples fanhood *******! Have I once said anything bad about you prior to this, I am just trying to settle a point not insult you you dumb ass.

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Tampa still hasn't clinched their division. They want that division badly. Sonnanstine's gonna be throwing fire. It would be nice for the Magic # to go down to 4 tomorrow. I'd love to have a chance to clinch up in the Baggie Dome without needing a sweep.There might be a letdown with the Rays, but you are right, they are still in a race. And they want the division title because they would much rather face our bullpen and Walkerball than the Angels. However, they are facing a very good pitcher tomorrow. He is not Kyle Davies good, but he is good nonetheless.

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 09:15 PM
Fixed it.Once again, FAIL.

LoveYourSuit
09-20-2008, 09:16 PM
Do not forget that in 2005, we ended any postseason hope that Cleveland had, by sweeping them at home to end the regular season. They will try to return the favor to us if they get the chance to. This is the scenario that I have dreaded for weeks, and this is where it is going to end up.


It's sad we need to map out these scenarios every night because of not being able to take charge as a "team that wants it" should.

We have to win tomorrow. If the Twins do not lose tomorrow too, then we have to take 2 of 3 from them in Minn. This way we only have to win 1 game of the 4 home games remaining with Cle and 1 with Det. This will allow us to set up our pitching staff for the post season.

TomBradley72
09-20-2008, 09:16 PM
Man.....Griffey is a complete embarassment in CF. I've been watching baseball since 1971...he's has the least range of any CF I've ever seen. He MIGHT be passable in LF...but CF? No way. If he's out there in Minnesota he'll kill us. His .248 BA is not worth the price we pay on defense.

DickAllen72
09-20-2008, 09:25 PM
man tomorrow's game's (Sox @ Royals AND Twins @ Rays) are going to be so huge.

I mean the diiference between a 2.5 game lead and a 3.5 game is lead is giant
The difference between a 1.5 game lead and a 3.5 game lead is even bigger. Sox better win and Twins better lose or the Sox are in trouble heading into that series in Minnesota on Tuesday.

southsideirish71
09-20-2008, 09:27 PM
Man.....Griffey is a complete embarassment in CF. I've been watching baseball since 1971...he's has the least range of any CF I've ever seen. He MIGHT be passable in LF...but CF? No way. If he's out there in Minnesota he'll kill us. His .248 BA is not worth the price we pay on defense.

I would rather have Anderson in CF not hitting but playing a good CF, over an older player that a 90 loss dog didnt even trot out there last year and this year. I wish he exercised his no trade protection and saved Kenny from himself.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 09:29 PM
True but if the Twins win and sox win or lose and lose 2.5 is not suicidal because we have the blanket of just needing to win one. Even though I believe the sox should be going for the clinch in Minnesota. If the dome treats us like usual though this might be a very very dull three games.

Sockinchisox
09-20-2008, 09:30 PM
Win tomorrow and I'll feel better about going into Minny, lose tomorrow and I'll be scared ****less. (Unless Minny loses tomorrow as well.)

BigP50
09-20-2008, 09:30 PM
The difference between a 1.5 game lead and a 3.5 game lead is even bigger. Sox better win and Twins better lose or the Sox are in trouble heading into that series in Minnesota on Tuesday.


or if we both win or both lose we still have a 2.5 game lead which make me breathe a lot easier then having a 1.5 game lead

Lip Man 1
09-20-2008, 09:34 PM
By my count and it could be incorrect, this is the 4th time this month the Sox had a chance to get to the "magic number" of a three game lead or more over the Twins and weren't able to get it done.

I agree with those who posted earlier, if Ozzie sees that Minnesota is losing Sunday (and they start an hour before the Sox) he needs to do absolutely everything he can to win the game...especially with a day off on Monday.

Buehrle said it best last night, as quoted in the newspapers today, that having a 2 1/2 game lead (or more) is very important going to Minnesota "because of the way we play there..." (direct quote)

Lip

BigP50
09-20-2008, 09:38 PM
we need to get into the Metrodome extra early for batting practice

Quentin08
09-20-2008, 09:38 PM
The odds of us going into Minny w/ a 2.5 or 3.5 lead are greater than us going into Minny w/ a 1.5 lead. And the odds of going there w/ a 2.5 lead are greater than going in w/ a 3.5 lead. So chances are, we'll fly into Minny with a 2 1/2 lead.

The chances of us getting swept in the abominable dome are slimmer than us winning at least 1. If we just win 1, we'll come home to a packed house w/ a 1 1/2 game lead. All we need is 1 win. I think we'll clinch this thing at home. Get your tickets now!

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 09:44 PM
That is my point. You want JD to swing for the fences there. That is the Sox only hope.

See, the simpletonism ^^^ is a nice encapsulation of the problem with the Sox.

Kind of like Ed Farmer's frequent "a bloop & a blast here would it make it a 3 run game" garbage of analysis reflecting the flawed thinking of a certain segment of our fanbase.


1. Dye hasn't hit a HR in a long time. He's pretty much an automatic out right now on the Road, especially in close/late. Poor (early) pitch recognition & a loopy swing.
2. Soria doesn't give up HR at home. Soria doesn't give up HR to right-handed batters, period.
3. Only 1 out, and Thome & Alexei coming up. In that situation, Dye's job is to get on base at ANY cost to set up a big inning and put some real pressure on Sora. Dye's approach should be swing at nothing borderline or with late movement until/unless before he gets to 2 strikes; get ahead in the count against slightly erratic Soria and think linedrive-linedrive-linedrive, up the middle, up the middle, up the middle....

(No, Cabrera chasing a pitch a foot off the plate didn't help the rally, either. Neither did Griffey & Swisher wasting 2-0, 3-1 counts respectively an inning earlier. A lot of people to blame.)

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 09:49 PM
See, the simpletonism ^^^ is a nice encapsulation of the problem with the Sox.

Kind of like Ed Farmer's frequent "a bloop & a blast here would it make it a 3 run game" garbage of analysis reflecting the flawed thinking of a certain segment of our fanbase.


1. Dye hasn't hit a HR in a long time. He's pretty much an automatic out right now on the Road, especially in close/late. Poor (early) pitch recognition & a loopy swing.
2. Soria doesn't give up HR at home. Soria doesn't give up HR to right-handed batters, period.
3. Only 1 out, and Thome & Alexei coming up. In that situation, Dye's job is to get on base at ANY cost to set up a big inning and put some real pressure on Sora. Dye's approach should be swing at nothing borderline or with late movement until/unless before he gets to 2 strikes; get ahead in the count against slightly erratic Soria and think linedrive-linedrive-linedrive, up the middle, up the middle, up the middle....

(No, Cabrera chasing a pitch a foot off the plate didn't help the rally, either. Neither did Griffey & Swisher wasting 2-0, 3-1 counts respectively an inning earlier. A lot of people to blame.)

Read what I wrote as my first post in this thread. This simple "long ball can win it all" theory is what has led to many disappointing years for the sox where they had it but couldn't hang on. Home run teams don't win championships. Thank you for re-stating to this guy (who called my argument clueless and stated that I must not watch white sox baseball) what I said.
You want to win this game, you get on base. You want to lose you kill any chance of a rally by going for the long ball and failing.

Basically it is like that ultimate risk scenario, you can strike it rich sometimes but most of the time you will fail.

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 09:52 PM
Floyd wasn't that bad. He fought today.



Floyd gave up 5 runs on 3 HR (DeJesus ball banged high off the wall and would have been out on most days in most parks during the summer, anyway). He also had numerous other close calls, including Teahan riding one to the wall with a man on. Floyd was very hittable, in other words.

You have to remember that baseball games are as much of a Starting Pitcher Duel (just ask Las Vegas betting establishment) as anything. Floyd was going up against Davies. Davies shut us down cold. Floyd needed to respond accordingly - and couldn't. That, my friend, is the bottomline, excuses or not.

Jeckle2000
09-20-2008, 09:57 PM
Floyd gave up 5 runs on 3 HR (DeJesus banged high off the wall and would have been out on most days in most parks during the summer, anyway). He also had numerous other close calls, including Teahan riding one to the wall with a man. Floyd was very hittable, in other words.

You have to remember that baseball games are as much of a Starting Pitcher Duel (just ask Las Vegas betting establishment) as anything. Floyd was going up against Davies. Davies shut us down cold. Floyd needed to respond accordingly - and couldn't. That, my friend, is the bottomline, excuses or not.

This wasn't Gavin's fault. In his first full year in the majors he battled for 6 IP and gave up only 3 ER's... Ozzie throwing him back out there in the 7th was a stupid move. He was pushing his luck. If he was on regular rest then I have no problem throwing him back out there. But when your on short rest and your starter gives you a quality start you get him out of there and turn it over to the bullpen. Especially when they were hitting him around pretty good earlier in the game.

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 09:57 PM
Basically it is like that ultimate risk scenario, you can strike it rich sometimes but most of the time you will fail.

...and even if JD succeeds in launching an improbable moonshot right there, it's still only a 5-5 game, bases empty and Royals coming to bat in the bottom of the order against the struggling Sox pen...

Look. There is time for everything, including for overswinging. This, however, was not one of such times.

And you know what? Almost paradoxically, those dramatic late-inning HR often times come when a (strong) hitter ISN'T trying to park it. Baseball is a funny, funny game that way.

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 10:01 PM
This wasn't Gavin's fault. .

At some point... You're either a problem or a solution. Trite but true. Floyd has been the solution plenty of times this season, but today he was a problem - not the only problem, but a problem nonethless.

People talk ad naseum about situational hitting. Well, there is also situational pitching. Example: notice how Mark Buerhle didn't give up a 3-run shot until Sox had a commanding 7-0 lead yesterday; until Sox scored in the 4th, he allowed nothing.

BigP50
09-20-2008, 10:03 PM
it is somewhat his fault in a way

he allowed what 4 runs? and we only scored 2.

not blaming him for the loss but unfortunatley he was part of the problem

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 10:05 PM
it is somewhat his fault in a way

he allowed what 4 runs? and we only scored 2.

not blaming him for the loss but unfortunatley he was part of the problem
Semi- agree on this one. The guy can't pitch gems all the time. The offense needed to be there that is all.

JB98
09-20-2008, 10:06 PM
The difference between a 1.5 game lead and a 3.5 game lead is even bigger. Sox better win and Twins better lose or the Sox are in trouble heading into that series in Minnesota on Tuesday.

I think the dome has a lot of people spooked.

I'm much more frightened by the way the Sox have been playing lately.

BigP50
09-20-2008, 10:07 PM
Semi- agree on this one. The guy can't pitch gems all the time. The offense needed to be there that is all.


I semi agree :D:

there have also probably been some games he has pitched where we have scored a good amount of runs and didn't do so well

ms620
09-20-2008, 10:09 PM
See, the simpletonism ^^^ is a nice encapsulation of the problem with the Sox.

Kind of like Ed Farmer's frequent "a bloop & a blast here would it make it a 3 run game" garbage of analysis reflecting the flawed thinking of a certain segment of our fanbase.


1. Dye hasn't hit a HR in a long time. He's pretty much an automatic out right now on the Road, especially in close/late. Poor (early) pitch recognition & a loopy swing.
2. Soria doesn't give up HR at home. Soria doesn't give up HR to right-handed batters, period.
3. Only 1 out, and Thome & Alexei coming up. In that situation, Dye's job is to get on base at ANY cost to set up a big inning and put some real pressure on Sora. Dye's approach should be swing at nothing borderline or with late movement until/unless before he gets to 2 strikes; get ahead in the count against slightly erratic Soria and think linedrive-linedrive-linedrive, up the middle, up the middle, up the middle....

(No, Cabrera chasing a pitch a foot off the plate didn't help the rally, either. Neither did Griffey & Swisher wasting 2-0, 3-1 counts respectively an inning earlier. A lot of people to blame.)

1. Soria had pitched 6 straight outings without allowing a hit; 5 1/3 innings.

2. Soria has blown 3 saves this season; in each of those outings, he gave up a home run. That means, in every appearance that he did not give up a home run, he did not blow the save.

3. Only 8 games this season had he given up multiple hits in 1 appearance; only 3 of those were at home.

So now let me ask you...what is more likely, the Sox winning due to a JD game tying home run, or the sox winning due to a JD single up the middle?

BigP50
09-20-2008, 10:11 PM
it was funny, I think everyone knew that pitch that Thome struck out on was coming, at least I did. He is not good at hitting the giant curves

Jeckle2000
09-20-2008, 10:11 PM
At some point... You're either a problem or a solution. Trite but true. Floyd has been the solution plenty of times this season, but today he was a problem - not the only problem, but a problem nonethless.

People talk ad naseum about situational hitting. Well, there is also situational pitching. Example: notice how Mark Buerhle didn't give up a 3-run shot until Sox had a commanding 7-0 lead yesterday; until Sox scored in the 4th, he allowed nothing.

Yes, completely ignore the fact that he's not used to going on three day rest and shouldn't of been out on three days rest this time either. The fact is that he gave us a quality start and Ozzie pushed his luck. It was a bad move.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2008, 10:14 PM
Jeckle:

Whom else would you rather have in his place?

Ozzie is taking his best shot with the best pitchers he has. It's not his fault they don't have the depth.

Lip

BigP50
09-20-2008, 10:15 PM
Ozzie should just remember this

Just Say NO to Horacio

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 10:18 PM
1. Soria had pitched 6 straight outings without allowing a hit; 5 1/3 innings.

2. Soria has blown 3 saves this season; in each of those outings, he gave up a home run. That means, in every appearance that he did not give up a home run, he did not blow the save.

3. Only 8 games this season had he given up multiple hits in 1 inning; only 3 of those were at home.

So now let me ask you...what is more likely, the Sox winning due to a JD game tying home run, or the sox winning due to a JD single up the middle?
It isn't about one being more likely then the other. First of all your sentence makes no sense. The sox can't win on a game- trying home run (yes now I am being a smart ass).

Now let me explain the simple notion that a home run is a very low percentage hit. Take the numbers on that for the entire league for the average number of at bats it takes for baseball players to hit a home run. It doesn't matter what a team is built like or what it has been doing recently. It is easier to hit the ball on the field.

What you are missing here is the fact that with a single or a double, and he said this clearly, you have a chance for the big inning. You get two hits or three you score 1 run or two and then you are in a much better probability to tie the game up. If less then one out you can get a sac fly maybe (the sox have done this once) you can even squeeze.

You see the possibilities are completely different whereas with a home run you have one just ONE way out of it, If you mess up you are done. Plus home runs kill rallies. Look what it did, he flied out going for the big fly. Two outs on Jim Thome who chokes like no other in the clutch. You know the results.

Doesn't matter what Soria has done, if he is so good then his chances of giving up a homer are even less then giving up consecutive hits.

ms620
09-20-2008, 10:22 PM
It isn't about one being more likely then the other. First of all your sentence makes no sense. The sox can't win on a game- trying home run (yes now I am being a smart ass).

Now let me explain the simple notion that a home run is a very low percentage hit. Take the numbers on that for the entire league for the average number of at bats it takes for baseball players to hit a home run. It doesn't matter what a team is built like or what it has been doing recently. It is easier to hit the ball on the field.

What you are missing here is the fact that with a single or a double, and he said this clearly, you have a chance for the big inning. You get two hits or three you score 1 run or two and then you are in a much better probability to tie the game up. If less then one out you can get a sac fly maybe (the sox have done this once) you can even squeeze.

You see the possibilities are completely different whereas with a home run you have one just ONE way out of it, If you mess up you are done. Plus home runs kill rallies. Look what it did, he flied out going for the big fly. Two outs on Jim Thome who chokes like no other in the clutch. You know the results.

Doesn't matter what Soria has done, if he is so good then his chances of giving up a homer are even less then giving up consecutive hits.

Please refer to my previous statement regarding your posts. If you cant udnerstand how those stats relate to this situation, than there is no point even continuing this discussion. Who knows what JDs intentions were during that AB. Maybe he wantred to hit it up the middle, but got a pitch he thought he could turn on, and tried to hit it out. Who knows. All I know is we saw what Thome did, and I am not confident that the rest of the Sox hitters were all of a sudden going to string together a bunch of hits. JD hits that home run there, and there is a good chance if the Sox make it to the 10th inning, Soria is out of the game. That was the Sox best chance to win.

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 10:30 PM
Yes, completely ignore the fact that he's not used to going on three day rest and shouldn't of been out on three days rest this time either.

I am not ignoring anything. In fact, it's the first thing I mentioned in my first post in this thread. And I've said it repeatedly that 4-man rotation thing is a bad idea for this team.

Ultimately, it's irrelvant. The only objective is to get the jobe done. And Floyd was mediocre, to put it mildly, today. He failed to get the job done.

If Floyd holds them scoreless in the 3rd, there is less room for error for Kyle Davies - who knows, the Sox very well could have amassed a rally in the 4th just as they did on Friday... Complexion of the game changes, different relievers come in, etc. Maybe we win.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 10:30 PM
Please refer to my previous statement regarding your posts. If you cant udnerstand how those stats relate to this situation, than there is no point even continuing this discussion. Who knows what JDs intentions were during that AB. Maybe he wantred to hit it up the middle, but got a pitch he thought he could turn on, and tried to hit it out. Who knows. All I know is we saw what Thome did, and I am not confident that the rest of the Sox hitters were all of a sudden going to string together a bunch of hits. JD hits that home run there, and there is a good chance if the Sox make it to the 10th inning, Soria is out of the game. That was the Sox best chance to win.

I understand what you are getting at but I just hope you understand that the home run is not the only or best option regardless of how the white sox are playing. Too many people think home- run is a god- send when down by a substantial amount. They end rallies- consistent hits create rallies (I don't know how many times I have said this but you can take many examples where teams just die out during a game because of a home run). I understand what you are saying about J.D. not having a notion of hitting a home run and seeing the opportunity arise then taking it. Maybe, just maybe, if he just looks to hit it the other way or in the gap instead- it bodes well for the sox.

Medford Bobby
09-20-2008, 10:32 PM
Win tomorrow and I'll feel better about going into Minny, lose tomorrow and I'll be scared ****less. (Unless Minny loses tomorrow as well.)
Thank GOD that The Raymonds STILL have something to play for as the may have clinched a playoff spot, but not yet won the division, other wise we'd see the Twinkies play the Raymonds "B" team and bat boys.......:o:

jabrch
09-20-2008, 10:32 PM
Ozzie throwing him back out there in the 7th was a stupid move. He was pushing his luck.

Where can I find those 20/20 Hindsight Glasses you have?

With as much as the pen has struggled lately, Ozzie had every reason to try Gavin for one more inning.

jabrch
09-20-2008, 10:36 PM
Jeckle:

Whom else would you rather have in his place?

Ozzie is taking his best shot with the best pitchers he has. It's not his fault they don't have the depth.

Lip

Lip - I'd argue that they have the depth - but right now, they are just struggling. (Dotel, Linebrink, etc. have been solid much of the year)

Adele_H
09-20-2008, 10:38 PM
Doesn't matter what Soria has done, if he is so good then his chances of giving up a homer are even less then giving up consecutive hits.

I will reipeaterate:

1) Soria has given up NO home runs at home all year.
2) Soria has only given up 1 HR to right-handers all year.
3) Dye on the Road these days is not a pretty sight. Higher-percentage approach > very low-percentage approach.

voodoochile
09-20-2008, 10:38 PM
Ozzie should just remember this

Just Say NO to Horacio

He's clearly been trying to rest Octavio and Carasco in particular these past few weeks. He has to try to balance the games he needs to win now without burning everyone out for the post season. It's a rough rope to walk and he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I get the impression the bullpen is recovering a bit now and with Monday off, OG should be able to use the main guys tomorrow with no loss of effectiveness for the Twinkie series.

It would be really cool to go into the playoffs just getting healthy including TCQ with a well rested bullpen and a rotation set up properly.

I know, I know, first we have to get there, but it won't do us any good to get there if every arm is ragged...

Chisox353014
09-20-2008, 11:13 PM
Have to look big picture after tonight. Yes it's frustrating that we haven't been able to add that extra game to the lead, but we started the weekend up 1.5 and are now up 2.5. 3 of the 4 decisions have gone our way since Friday.

Just have to win tomorrow and we're in great shape still. If the Twinks lose, even better. This Twins team is not good. We should be going into the Dome with the attitude of "let's sweep these guys." :Rocker:

TheOldRoman
09-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Have to look big picture after tonight. Yes it's frustrating that we haven't been able to add that extra game to the lead, but we started the weekend up 1.5 and are now up 2.5. 3 of the 4 decisions have gone our way since Friday.

Just have to win tomorrow and we're in great shape still. If the Twinks lose, even better. This Twins team is not good. We should be going into the Dome with the attitude of "let's sweep these guys." :Rocker:Very true, but the Sox are not increasing their lead. 2 and 4 on a road trip against a Yankees team with nothing to play for and the Royals is really, really bad. The Sox are better than the Twins now, and have been all season. That doesn't count for much the way the Sox are playing. With their horrible play in September, they have put themselves in a position where they have to win at least 1 in the dome to have a chance. 1 out of 3 shouldn't be that hard to do anywhere, but we are 1-3 and 1-1 so far on our road trip.

Hell, assuming the Sox go into the series with a 2.5 lead and a magic number of 5, if they only win 1, they will have to either count on the Twins losing to the Royals or sweep the Indians to clinch without playing the makeup game.

oeo
09-20-2008, 11:23 PM
Have to look big picture after tonight. Yes it's frustrating that we haven't been able to add that extra game to the lead, but we started the weekend up 1.5 and are now up 2.5. 3 of the 4 decisions have gone our way since Friday.

Just have to win tomorrow and we're in great shape still. If the Twinks lose, even better. This Twins team is not good. We should be going into the Dome with the attitude of "let's sweep these guys." :Rocker:

I think the biggest comfort going into that Twins series is it looks like their starting rotation is completely collapsing (Liriano, Perkins, Blackburn, and Slowey all terrible in their most recent start). We haven't been scoring off of starting pitchers lately, so if the Twins rotation sucking it up, we could have our way in Minny.

guillensdisciple
09-20-2008, 11:25 PM
I think the biggest comfort going into that Twins series is it looks like their starting rotation is completely collapsing (Liriano, Perkins, Blackburn, and Slowey all terrible in their most recent start). We haven't been scoring off of starting pitchers lately, so if the Twins rotation sucking it up, we could have our way in Minny.

Sox hitting makes bad pitching look good.

socaljeff
09-20-2008, 11:38 PM
Man.....Griffey is a complete embarassment in CF. I've been watching baseball since 1971...he's has the least range of any CF I've ever seen. He MIGHT be passable in LF...but CF? No way. If he's out there in Minnesota he'll kill us. His .248 BA is not worth the price we pay on defense.

I thought the Griffey at bat in the 9th was the key. The lead-off man walks, and then the Royals go to the bullpen. And then Griffey - still down by three and needing base runners - gets ahead 2-0. Instead of forcing the new pitcher to throw a strike, Griffey swings at the next pitch and pops up weakly to short left.

The guy has been playing in the majors for 20 years ... does he not understand that unless he's the potential tying run in that situation, he does NOT swing at that 2-0 pitch?? Does he not understand situational baseball? Very frustrating ... his at-bat changed the tone of the entire inning.:angry:

Jeckle2000
09-20-2008, 11:57 PM
Jeckle:

Whom else would you rather have in his place?

Ozzie is taking his best shot with the best pitchers he has. It's not his fault they don't have the depth.

Lip

Considering Danks has had more then enough rest since his last start I'd pick him. I can't believe that anyone is putting this loss on Floyd. When Ozzie makes him go on short rest then I'd take 6 IP and 3 ER's every time. The manager pushed his luck and we lost. End of story.

guillensdisciple
09-21-2008, 12:08 AM
This is a calm down quote for myself for the next week.

The sox have 8 games left
The twins have 7.

If the sox go 4 and 4 the rest of the way the Twins have to go 6-1
5-3 to 8-0

3-5 to 5-2

2-6 to 4-3


whatever scenario you draw for the sox they would have to have a massive choke job and the twins have to have an insane resurrection for the twins to win and sox to lose.

All signs are pointing playoffs for the sox.

oeo
09-21-2008, 12:35 AM
Sox hitting makes bad pitching look good.

Over the past 6 games, with the exception of Phil Hughes, this is false. You could put Davies in there, but it's also quite possible we caught him at the wrong time.

pudge
09-21-2008, 03:14 AM
I thought the Griffey at bat in the 9th was the key. The lead-off man walks, and then the Royals go to the bullpen. And then Griffey - still down by three and needing base runners - gets ahead 2-0. Instead of forcing the new pitcher to throw a strike, Griffey swings at the next pitch and pops up weakly to short left.

The guy has been playing in the majors for 20 years ... does he not understand that unless he's the potential tying run in that situation, he does NOT swing at that 2-0 pitch?? Does he not understand situational baseball? Very frustrating ... his at-bat changed the tone of the entire inning.:angry:

It depends on how bad the pitch was. As a hitter, your ultimate goal is to get a 2-0, 3-1 count so you can swing at something good to hit. I didn't see the pitch so I can't say in this case, but your assumption that Griffey did a dumb thing could be completely wrong.

pudge
09-21-2008, 03:15 AM
This is a calm down quote for myself for the next week.

The sox have 8 games left
The twins have 7.

If the sox go 4 and 4 the rest of the way the Twins have to go 6-1
5-3 to 8-0

3-5 to 5-2

2-6 to 4-3


whatever scenario you draw for the sox they would have to have a massive choke job and the twins have to have an insane resurrection for the twins to win and sox to lose.

All signs are pointing playoffs for the sox.

this is your smartest post in this entire thread. :cool:

TDog
09-21-2008, 04:15 AM
Gavin Floyd has a career ERA of 4.98. After tonight, it is probable over 5. However, ERA does not tell the entire story. Take out 2 very poor outings for Davies, which accounted for 12 ER in about 5 innings, and his ERA in his other starts is under 3.5. He also has given up 3 ER or less in 15 of 19 starts. I would take that any day.

People here complain every time the Sox don't score in double digits whenever they face a pitcher with an ERA over 4. I've long argued that gamelogs show how well a pitcher can pitch when they're on, how some pitchers with high ERAs have pitched great games when they had they were able to throw strikes. Young pitchers are especially unpredictable. Radhames Liz couldn't get out of the sixth against the Sox, and people here whined, but he allowed fewer baserunners in eight shutout innings against the Twins a week ago. He also pitched better in June in beating the Twins than he did in August beating the White Sox.

This isn't high school or a video game. Most major league pitchers Gio Gonzalez can look great against the Blue Jays and Rays and get rocked by the White Sox. In two starts this year, Clayton Richard has pitched six shutout innings, and he has an ERA exceeding 6.

I enjoyed listening to A's announcer Ray Fosse complain in April that the offense was performing especially poorly when John Danks shut them down. Look at his career stats. And because he had a bad game against the Twins before facing the A's, he had an ERA of 8 going into that game. Forget that he held the Indians to one run in 6.2 innings in his first start.

Sox fans sound just as silly tonight.

ms620
09-21-2008, 09:29 AM
I will reipeaterate:

1) Soria has given up NO home runs at home all year.
2) Soria has only given up 1 HR to right-handers all year.
3) Dye on the Road these days is not a pretty sight. Higher-percentage approach > very low-percentage approach.

Not surprising that you did not reply to my response. Read it again, realize what you are saying makes so sense, and then feel free to respond. People cannot get on Dye for almost hitting a game tying 3 run home run in the ninth. Its ridiculous. It actually might be one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard from White Sox fans.

guillensdisciple
09-21-2008, 09:35 AM
this is your smartest post in this entire thread. :cool:
Thanks, I guess!

So my arguments about home run hitting prior to this must have made no sense.

:whiner:

alohafri
09-21-2008, 09:39 AM
Yes, completely ignore the fact that he's not used to going on three day rest and shouldn't of been out on three days rest this time either. The fact is that he gave us a quality start and Ozzie pushed his luck. It was a bad move.

Well, he better step up and be a man and LEARN to go on three days rest! If I see Clayton Richard starting a playoff game, someone had better have had his arm amputated or I'm checking Ozzie into a mental institution. In October baseball it is ALL three days rest.

voodoochile
09-21-2008, 09:42 AM
Well, he better step up and be a man and LEARN to go on three days rest! If I see Clayton Richard starting a playoff game, someone had better have had his arm amputated or I'm checking Ozzie into a mental institution. In October baseball it is ALL three days rest.

Actually, no... it's not. In October it's standard rest and you can get away with only 4 starters because of the days off. They never play more than 3 games in a row in the playoffs before getting an off day.

alohafri
09-21-2008, 12:23 PM
Actually, no... it's not. In October it's standard rest and you can get away with only 4 starters because of the days off. They never play more than 3 games in a row in the playoffs before getting an off day.

Good point. I failed to realize the built in days off so everyone (except the White Sox) can get night games in during the playoffs...not to mention travel.

I still don't want Clayton Richard starting this October. We'll talk October 2010 at a later date.

Adele_H
09-21-2008, 12:48 PM
Not surprising that you did not reply to my response. Read it again, realize what you are saying makes so sense, .

I didn't reply to your post because someone else already did, and also, frankly, because I was laughing too hard at your line of "reasoning".

You and Ed Farmer can continue yer salivating over the prospect of seeing the magical unicorn (aka 'HR by a badly slumping RH batter off Soria in his house this season'). I'll stick to more plausible, fundamentals-happy scenarios.

Oh and people aren't getting on Dye for hitting a glorified pop-up. They aren't even getting on Dye for missing a cookie middle-away the pitch before.

They are getting on Dye for his disappearing act, both offensively & defensively, pretty much the entire month of September when Quentin-less Sox arguably needed him the most... and also for being ineffective on the Road pretty much the whole year, which just so happens to coincide with the team's struggles on the road.