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View Full Version : For those who bitch about KW...


asindc
09-18-2008, 09:55 AM
... please count your blessings:

http://ussmariner.com/

Lundind1
09-18-2008, 10:02 AM
... please count your blessings:

http://ussmariner.com/

Yeah, things could be worse. KW will rebuild our farm system too.

SoxSpeed22
09-18-2008, 10:09 AM
That trade made sense at the time. The Mariners finished second in the division and they needed an ace to get over the top. Unfortunately for them, it didn't work. Now the team is in shambles, as well as the farm system.
Back to the Sox farm system, even though it is no good now, they are taking the right steps to correct it.

asindc
09-18-2008, 10:16 AM
That trade made sense at the time. The Mariners finished second in the division and they needed an ace to get over the top. Unfortunately for them, it didn't work. Now the team is in shambles, as well as the farm system.
Back to the Sox farm system, even though it is no good now, they are taking the right steps to correct it.

At the time of the trade, many people, including myself, were surprised that Seattle gave up so much for an injury-prone pitcher. I think that is where the criticism lies. This was foreseeable.

Lundind1
09-18-2008, 10:20 AM
I attribute the Mariners failure on the fact that they just had a bad year. I really think that they would have been right there had they not had as many major setbacks. Remember, in 07 they were fighting for the AL West title and finish with a very good winning record.

SoxSpeed22
09-18-2008, 10:21 AM
At the time of the trade, many people, including myself, were surprised that Seattle gave up so much for an injury-prone pitcher. I think that is where the criticism lies. This was foreseeable.That is true. The Mariners decided it worth a shot and they came up empty.

chisoxfanatic
09-18-2008, 10:25 AM
For those of you who complain about how lean Chicago sports have been from time to time, I'll tell you NOBODY can top what has been going on in Seattle at this present moment. They lost their NBA franchise, the M's are absolutely in shambles, and their Seahawks will be disappointing. I feel pretty bad for them considering that is my second favorite city.

Domeshot17
09-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Yeah, things could be worse. KW will rebuild our farm system too.

I like Kenny but can you tell me how? We got Beckham because we had a high pick but the rest of the top rounds were not stellar. We wasted a high pick on his kid who sucks almost as bad as Oney Guillen who is rolling right around to make the 25 man roster next year.

We brought in Buddy Bell, that is a start, but we haven't really shown much more ability to develop the guys we draft, we haven't shown the willingness to open the pocket book for the tough signs (and overpaying for Danks's brother shouldn't count, because he isn't prime talent, he had an extremely disappointing College Career and was just another case of Kenny making sure Kenny got his man. There are some talented pitchers we let get away).

It just bothers me we don't spend in the draft. Poreda over Porcello is still mind boggling to me. Poreda looks more and more like he has a Matt Thornton type Career ahead of him, and some scouts are starting to call Porcello one of the 5 best arms in the minors.

oeo
09-19-2008, 12:26 AM
I like Kenny but can you tell me how? We got Beckham because we had a high pick but the rest of the top rounds were not stellar. We wasted a high pick on his kid who sucks almost as bad as Oney Guillen who is rolling right around to make the 25 man roster next year.

We brought in Buddy Bell, that is a start, but we haven't really shown much more ability to develop the guys we draft, we haven't shown the willingness to open the pocket book for the tough signs (and overpaying for Danks's brother shouldn't count, because he isn't prime talent, he had an extremely disappointing College Career and was just another case of Kenny making sure Kenny got his man. There are some talented pitchers we let get away).

It just bothers me we don't spend in the draft. Poreda over Porcello is still mind boggling to me. Poreda looks more and more like he has a Matt Thornton type Career ahead of him, and some scouts are starting to call Porcello one of the 5 best arms in the minors.

The 2008 draft class is looking to be quite strong to this point. Still early, but things look good. That's a start.

oeo
09-19-2008, 12:33 AM
I attribute the Mariners failure on the fact that they just had a bad year. I really think that they would have been right there had they not had as many major setbacks. Remember, in 07 they were fighting for the AL West title and finish with a very good winning record.

They were probably the luckiest team in baseball last year. The hype surrounding them was insane. I don't think anyone could have expected what they've done this year, but they were not a great team last year.

Foulke You
09-19-2008, 01:07 AM
That trade made sense at the time. The Mariners finished second in the division and they needed an ace to get over the top. Unfortunately for them, it didn't work. Now the team is in shambles, as well as the farm system.
The Bedard trade made sense for them at the time. The Mariners had a great bullpen, balanced offense, great defense, and a wishy washy rotation last year that prevented them from making the playoffs. They tried to address their rotation weakness with the Bedard deal who was an established front of the rotation starter. They gambled and it failed so I don't think you can hang the GM with that one. However, the one deal you absolutely CAN hang the GM for is signing Carlos freakin' Silva to a 4 year deal worth $42 million!! The mighty Silva went 4W-15L with a 6.42 E.R.A for the M's this year and they get to enjoy overpaying him for the next 3 years.

WhiteSox5187
09-19-2008, 03:08 AM
I think I ripped just about all of Kenny's moves this off season (except the quentin trade and signing Alexei) and I didn't like it when we traded for Danks or Floyd...having said that, whether we make the playoffs or not, I owe Kenny an apology. I was 100% dead wrong about all of those moves. Kenny has many many flaws, but at the end of the day, he knows how to put together a good team...though i probably could have put together a good team too!:tongue:

hellview
09-19-2008, 07:15 AM
Yeah, things could be worse. KW will rebuild our farm system too.

Why would Kenney decide to rebuild a farm systems when he hasn't done a damn thing with it for the last 5 years?

chaerulez
09-19-2008, 07:58 AM
For those of you who complain about how lean Chicago sports have been from time to time, I'll tell you NOBODY can top what has been going on in Seattle at this present moment. They lost their NBA franchise, the M's are absolutely in shambles, and their Seahawks will be disappointing. I feel pretty bad for them considering that is my second favorite city.

Seattle sports have been pretty bleak for it's entire history. The most popular team when I lived there were the Washington Huskies because they won a co national title. The Seahawks were below average but they decided to be really bad, the Mariners had the best young player in the game but had never made it to the postseason in their franchise history, and the Sonics were good but they also became the first #1 seed to lose to a #8 seed in the playoffs. And their sports heros tend to leave them, I think Steve Largent was the most revered sports figure then and probably still is now maybe with Ichiro. A-Rod, Griffey and Randy Johnson all left because they wanted more money. Shawn Kemp decided he liked to eat too much cheeseburgers and dabble in cocaine while having ten children. Gary Payton kind of left on bad terms, people in the city were hurt by his departure. Well, at least they got a MLS team which supposely has already over 10,000 season tickets sales which I imagine would be tops in the entire league. Cleveland and Philly have had similar bad sports histories also.

chaerulez
09-19-2008, 07:59 AM
Why would Kenney decide to rebuild a farm systems when he hasn't done a damn thing with it for the last 5 years?

I don't think it's a lack of trying, just bad drafting and the fact we haven't had much success with international scouting.

hellview
09-19-2008, 08:14 AM
I don't think it's a lack of trying, just bad drafting and the fact we haven't had much success with international scouting.

Well I'm sure the Pirates have been trying for the last 16 years too. The bottom line is the Sox are more then likely going to stick with low ceiling college pitchers.

Outside of Beckham (which was top 10 talent) I don't have any faith in Kenny to rebuild anything. Unless Jerry opens the check book and starts going after Boras guys and spending some cash I don't see Kennedy rebuilding anything.

asindc
09-19-2008, 08:33 AM
The Bedard trade made sense for them at the time. The Mariners had a great bullpen, balanced offense, great defense, and a wishy washy rotation last year that prevented them from making the playoffs. They tried to address their rotation weakness with the Bedard deal who was an established front of the rotation starter. They gambled and it failed so I don't think you can hang the GM with that one. However, the one deal you absolutely CAN hang the GM for is signing Carlos freakin' Silva to a 4 year deal worth $42 million!! The mighty Silva went 4W-15L with a 6.42 E.R.A for the M's this year and they get to enjoy overpaying him for the next 3 years.

I generally agree with what you are saying. My point in citing to the link is that KW gets ripped a lot for not taking chances, but the Bedard signing is an example of what can happen when you do. It has set that franchise back at least 3-4 years. And I repeat what I said earlier, it was foreseeable.

I like KW's buy low/sell high approach. As for the farm system, he has work to do.

goofymsfan
09-19-2008, 09:46 AM
Seattle sports have been pretty bleak for it's entire history. The most popular team when I lived there were the Washington Huskies because they won a co national title. The Seahawks were below average but they decided to be really bad, the Mariners had the best young player in the game but had never made it to the postseason in their franchise history, and the Sonics were good but they also became the first #1 seed to lose to a #8 seed in the playoffs. And their sports heros tend to leave them, I think Steve Largent was the most revered sports figure then and probably still is now maybe with Ichiro. A-Rod, Griffey and Randy Johnson all left because they wanted more money. Shawn Kemp decided he liked to eat too much cheeseburgers and dabble in cocaine while having ten children. Gary Payton kind of left on bad terms, people in the city were hurt by his departure. Well, at least they got a MLS team which supposely has already over 10,000 season tickets sales which I imagine would be tops in the entire league. Cleveland and Philly have had similar bad sports histories also.

Edgar Martinez is probably the most revered sports figure in Seattle. He stayed when the rest left for "greener" pastures. Gary Payton, left on bad terms but he admitted his mistake and I think fans still appreciate the things he did do while he was here.

I generally agree with what you are saying. My point in citing to the link is that KW gets ripped a lot for not taking chances, but the Bedard signing is an example of what can happen when you do. It has set that franchise back at least 3-4 years. And I repeat what I said earlier, it was foreseeable.

I thought the Bedard trade was way too lopsided. I have a hard time seeing how trading 5 players for one is a good deal especially when one was a key piece to the bullpen and another a potential starting outfielder (which was a needed piece). The three minor league pitchers in addition just cleared out what little pitching we had in the minors especially when pitching is such a sought after commodity. From the M's standpoint, the trade was destine to be a failure. I think Bavasi managed to find a way to top the Varitek/Lowe for Slocombe trade. :rolleyes:

palehozenychicty
09-19-2008, 10:11 AM
I like Kenny but can you tell me how? We got Beckham because we had a high pick but the rest of the top rounds were not stellar. We wasted a high pick on his kid who sucks almost as bad as Oney Guillen who is rolling right around to make the 25 man roster next year.

We brought in Buddy Bell, that is a start, but we haven't really shown much more ability to develop the guys we draft, we haven't shown the willingness to open the pocket book for the tough signs (and overpaying for Danks's brother shouldn't count, because he isn't prime talent, he had an extremely disappointing College Career and was just another case of Kenny making sure Kenny got his man. There are some talented pitchers we let get away).

It just bothers me we don't spend in the draft. Poreda over Porcello is still mind boggling to me. Poreda looks more and more like he has a Matt Thornton type Career ahead of him, and some scouts are starting to call Porcello one of the 5 best arms in the minors.

Me too. I'd rather they invest more in the draft than FA. At least the potential for upside exists on your parent club, if it doesn't manifest into trades.