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View Full Version : *Official* Offense Can't Tag Hughes Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
09-17-2008, 08:49 PM
Why can't we execute?

TheOldRoman
09-17-2008, 08:50 PM
Yep.

Evman5
09-17-2008, 08:50 PM
Oh well....lets go Tribe! Get the split tomorrow and bring out the brooms against KC

cleanwsox
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Get that man in the bullpen now. What a joke that unit has become outside of Thorton and Jenks.

sox102
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Wow. Nice thread title.

Jurr
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Because we aren't a championship caliber ballclub.

delben91
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
This ought to be a fun thread.

This time yesterday everyone was counting all the ways that showed how easy it'll be to clinch a tie heading into Minnesota.

Tonight...?

cnw8052
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Maybe the Sox should start playing tee-ball?

They wouldn't have to pitch the ball, and maybe, just maybe they could hit....

:angry::angry::angry::angry:

oeo
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Oh well....lets go Tribe! Get the split tomorrow and bring out the brooms against KC

The Sox should be 3 for 3 in this series. Tonight should have been in the bag. Hughes was terrible, Richard was awesome, and we lose.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 08:52 PM
Make no mistake, I have been saying for a few weeks now.

This bullpen is going to if not cost us the Division, it will make us a 3 and out target for round 1.


PATHETIC!!!


And Walker Balll is right behind it.

The Dude
09-17-2008, 08:52 PM
Why can't we execute?

Pathetic..

Pathetic managing by Ozzie leaving Richard in after he seemed like he wanted to take him out. You should never listen to a pitcher when he says he is ok. Especially a young one like Richard.
Pathetic RP by Linebrink and a terrible WP by the great one MacDougal.

Oh and did I mention PATHETIC hitting?

The only positive is the way Richard pitched through 6 innings.

GO TRIBE!

SOXPHILE
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
You know what would be really neat ? If the ****ing offense was able to maybe get more than 1 run !

A special "shout out" to Mike McDougal for throwing a wild pitch to the first batter he faced, and of course, to Scott Linebrink, for throwing up all over himself on the mound, and removing whatever small hope there was for a comeback.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
Wow. Nice thread title.It explains so much too! It seems like when the Sox get the lead, no matter what it is, they sleep their little hearts out and expect the game to end with a win. With this bullpen, there is no way on this planet that is going to happen. It's actualy very useless, they can't even hold a 7 run lead! :scratch:

JB98
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
Really, that's a perfect title for this thread. Hughes was not impressive. The Sox had chances to get to him, and they failed miserably with RISP. The Yankee relievers pitched well. We really needed to score against a weak starting pitcher, and we didn't.

Ozzie made a good decision to pitch Richard over Broadway. I did feel he left Clayton in two batters too long, but as inept as this bullpen has been, it is hard to blame the manager for sticking with a starter.

Hitters need to pick it up. Anytime these guys want to start scoring some runs away from USCF would be fine with me.....

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
This all goes hand in hand with White Sox not hitting pitching that they should hit, we probably should have won the first game of the series and this one. We might win tomorrow against Mussina and we won against Pettite.... how messed up is that?


I don't know what it is, but that was an ugly display of hitting, and if the Twins win today I no longer have any idea where this season is headed?


Another thing, this team actually has sparks of the '05 team as of now. The starting pitching looks sensational much like th '05 team. However the '05 team woulda won this game 1-0 or 2-1. We NEED someone to fill that hole in the seventh inning. Then I consider this team a considerable threat to win the pennant.

BadBobbyJenks
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
Fire Greg Walker!

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
Get that man in the bullpen now. What a joke that unit has become outside of Thorton and Jenks.


And Thornton and Jenks have not been spectacular lately either.


It's a crap fest in that pen.

sox1970
09-17-2008, 08:54 PM
I'm done complaining about this team. They're flawed. If they make the playoffs, good season. Anything else is gravy.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 08:54 PM
With Richard on the hill, with a bullpen as spotty as ours, why is Guillen taking leadoff doubles and playing for 1 run, with the heart of the order coming up?
The Sox did NOT get to 18 over .500 playing that type of baseball. The Sox played for big innings. Down the stretch, it's "ozzieball", even though a)we don't have the pitching for it; b)the players can't execute it.

Later, he takes the bat out of Ramirez' hands, which would have left it to Uribe drive a runner in.
And even if the bunts get executed you still have to hit a sac fly or something....playing regular ball, we've stranded runners on 3rd with less than 2 outs all year long.
He's got in in his mind "move the runners over".....it's ridiculous managing.

The Sox have also let 1 run defecits absolutely explode in the 7th and 8th innings the last few weeks.

hawkjt
09-17-2008, 08:55 PM
OC did his job tonite with two doubles...should have scored on both.
DWise messed up twice with OC on 2nd...inexcusable ..did get a hit later
JD is in a funk...just out of sorts which is bad news when he is hitting 3rd.
Thome...also funking it up lately.
PK...looked rusty tonite.
Junior...pretty dependable lately
AJ...ice cold.
Alexei...not tonite
Juan...not tonite

Bad offense tonite...and really since the Jays hit town.
They look tired.

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Pathetic..

Pathetic managing by Ozzie leaving Richard in after he seemed like he wanted to take him out.

Uh yeah, it worked out well....

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Fire Greg Walker!


Funny you say that because on the other side of the ball stands the fat man who has had his bullpen impload on him TWO YEARS in a row!

What the **** Coop?

SBSoxFan
09-17-2008, 08:56 PM
Pathetic..

Pathetic managing by Ozzie leaving Richard in after he seemed like he wanted to take him out. You should never listen to a pitcher when he says he is ok. Especially a young one like Richard.


It didn't look like Ozzie had any intention of taking Richard out.

I think Konerko should've gotten the lead out in the 7th, but it's irrelevant know. :dunno:

Tragg
09-17-2008, 08:56 PM
Richard is going to be key to this bullpen in the playoffs - at least he better be. He's 3 times the pitcher most of those clods are.

JB98
09-17-2008, 08:57 PM
With Richard on the hill, with a bullpen as spotty as ours, why is Guillen taking leadoff doubles and playing for 1 run, with the heart of the order coming up?
The Sox did NOT get to 18 over .500 playing that type of baseball. The Sox played for big innings. Down the stretch, it's "ozzieball", even though a)we don't have the pitching for it; b)the players can't execute it.

Later, he takes the bat out of Ramirez' hands, which would have left it to Uribe drive a runner in.
And even if the bunts get executed you still have to hit a sac fly or something....playing regular ball, we've stranded runners on 3rd with less than 2 outs all year long.
He's got in in his mind "move the runners over".....it's ridiculous managing.

The Sox have also let 1 run defecits absolutely explode in the 7th and 8th innings the last few weeks.

That was a bad move by Guillen.

We've got to stop giving away precious outs with bunts and steal attempts. We simply don't have the personnel to win that way.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 08:58 PM
Did I not read a stat today that we lead MLB with quality starts?

It's pathetic that we have not won 100 games by now with that stat.

Quality start after quality start down the drain.

Bad bullpeN + Bad Offense = BAD BAEBALL.

:angry:

JB98
09-17-2008, 08:58 PM
It didn't look like Ozzie had any intention of taking Richards out.

I think Konerko should've gotten the lead out in the 7th, but it's irrelevant know. :dunno:

Can you blame him the way this bullpen has pitched?

oeo
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
It didn't look like Ozzie had any intention of taking Richards out.

He shouldn't have; Richard was rolling. See what the bullpen did when they came in? You want to go to that crap?

Ozzie took him out when the game was still tied.

delben91
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
Wheeeeeeeeeeee

rdwj
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
eh - it's one game. It sounds very much like the last couple weeks in 05. We're gonna fold - we're not good enough - bla, bla, bla.

Just relax - the Twins are still 2 behind in the loss column, TCQ might be back before too long and the Twins have the Rays while we get the Royals.

I like our chances

Evman5
09-17-2008, 09:01 PM
DWise messed up twice with OC on 2nd...inexcusable ..did get a hit later


.

He did his job the second time....bunted him over and led to our only run

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:02 PM
eh - it's one game. It sounds very much like the last couple weeks in 05. We're gonna fold - we're not good enough - bla, bla, bla.

Just relax - the Twins are still 2 behind in the loss column, TCQ might be back before too long and the Twins have the Rays while we get the Royals.

I like our chances

I do too. If we go 6-5 the rest of the way, the Twinks need to go 8-3 to match.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:02 PM
eh - it's one game. It sounds very much like the last couple weeks in 05. We're gonna fold - we're not good enough - bla, bla, bla.

Just relax - the Twins are still 2 behind in the loss column, TCQ might be back before too long and the Twins have the Rays while we get the Royals.

I like our chances


Can he relieve out of the pen?

SBSoxFan
09-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Can you blame him the way this bullpen has pitched?

He shouldn't have; Richard was rolling. See what the bullpen did when they came in? You want to go to that crap?

Ozzie took him out when the game was still tied.

No, I don't blame him for leaving Richard in. I was rebutting the assertion that Richard talked Ozzie into leaving him in.

I would've liked to see someone else against Cano, however. Even MacDougal.

Evman5
09-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Can he relieve out of the pen?

No, but he might be able to help us put more than a run on the board against a scrub like Hughes

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:04 PM
eh - it's one game. It sounds very much like the last couple weeks in 05. We're gonna fold - we're not good enough - bla, bla, bla.

Just relax - the Twins are still 2 behind in the loss column, TCQ might be back before too long and the Twins have the Rays while we get the Royals.

I like our chances

Oh, I think we'll win the division. The thing that pisses me off is we keep giving games away. They should have won all 3 games in this series so far, but here we sit at 1-2. I guess it's been like this all year, though. These are the 2008 White Sox...better than their record indicates, they just can't finish.

southsideirish71
09-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Another guy with a 9 ERA comes in and puts the team down. Low and away, low and away. Every hitters swinging from their toes, looking for this mysterious fastball down the middle, only to find out its a slider, or a changeup. Good hitting teams figure out how to drive the runner in. Good hitting teams use the entire field, not just the spot between the 3rd basesman and the SS. Another QS lost. Its April again.

TheOldRoman
09-17-2008, 09:05 PM
Can he relieve out of the pen?I know you are on a one man crusade in this thread, but do you realize that we scored one ****ing run tonight? 1 Run. Against a horrible pitcher (this year) on a very off day, who hung breaking balls left and right? As bad as the bullpen was, it shouldn't have mattered. They should have tagged Hughes for 8 or made the Yankees go to the pen in the 3rd.

thomas35forever
09-17-2008, 09:05 PM
No, I don't blame him for leaving Richard in. I was rebutting the assertion that Richard talked Ozzie into leaving him in.

I would've liked to see someone else against Cano, however. Even MacDougal.
Agreed. He was responsible for the Yankees offense early on and I didn't have confidence in leaving Richard out there in that situation.

doublem23
09-17-2008, 09:05 PM
Funny you say that because on the other side of the ball stands the fat man who has had his bullpen impload on him TWO YEARS in a row!

What the **** Coop?

:scratch:

Stop before you say something stupid.

whitesoxfan
09-17-2008, 09:05 PM
Because we aren't a championship caliber ballclub.

Cardinals fans down here said the same **** in 2006.

Just get to the playoffs. Anything can happen once you're in.

rdwj
09-17-2008, 09:06 PM
Can he relieve out of the pen?

Post season pen will have a Richard to help solidify it. Guys can and do get hot. We need that to happen sometime soon. Who ever is going to win this thing needs that to happen - so it's not like we're alone.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:07 PM
I know you are on a one man crusade in this thread, but do you realize that we scored one ****ing run tonight? 1 Run. Against a horrible pitcher (this year) on a very off day, who hung breaking balls left and right? As bad as the bullpen was, it shouldn't have mattered. They should have tagged Hughes for 8 or made the Yankees go to the pen in the 3rd.


This offense has been flawed from day 1. Even with CQ in there, we pissed away plenty of Starting Pitching Gems in April, May and June.

The concept of crappy offense will not change, even if CQ comes back (and assuming his wrist is 100%).

TheOldRoman
09-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Another guy with a 9 ERA comes in and puts the team down. Low and away, low and away. Every hitters swinging from their toes, looking for this mysterious fastball down the middle, only to find out its a slider, or a changeup. Good hitting teams figure out how to drive the runner in. Good hitting teams use the entire field, not just the spot between the 3rd basesman and the SS. Another QS lost. Its April again.And that is the most frustrating thing. Take a mediocre to bad pitcher who can locate, have him throw off speed stuff out of the zone, and the Sox will chase pitches all night long. We know that. But when you have a bad pitcher, on an off day, who can't locate and consistently misses in the zone, it is even worse.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 09:09 PM
:scratch:

Stop before you say something stupid.WAAAAY too late for that.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Post season pen will have a Richard to help solidify it. Guys can and do get hot. We need that to happen sometime soon. Who ever is going to win this thing needs that to happen - so it's not like we're alone.

I'd like to see Richard used as the second lefty out of the bullpen, behind Thornton. He never runs into trouble until he hits the third time through the order. Pitching in relief, the opposing hitters wouldn't get three cracks at him.

Richard > Ramirez > Logan

The question, is what do we do for right-handed relief? :scratch: Jenks is the only righty out of the bullpen I can trust right now. We have to hope either Linebrink or Dotel gets it figured out.

Jurr
09-17-2008, 09:10 PM
eh - it's one game. It sounds very much like the last couple weeks in 05. We're gonna fold - we're not good enough - bla, bla, bla.

Just relax - the Twins are still 2 behind in the loss column, TCQ might be back before too long and the Twins have the Rays while we get the Royals.

I like our chances
The Sox showed the entire season that they had what it took to be a force in the postseason. They stepped on their own feet for a month or so, then things turned around when the tension eased off of their throats.

That team, once the postseason came around, played the exact same players night in and night out, winning 11 of 12 in the process. This team doesn't have a group of 9 players to consistently put on the field. That chemistry does not exist. When the season's on the line, Ozzie is having to guess who he's going to put out there. Will it be Wise? Anderson? Griffey? Swisher? Who knows?

Even with the great season the Sox had in '05, many games in that postseason came down to clutch moments from the bullpen. Games 2 and 3 of the ALDS, as well as every game of the world series come to mind. Can we count on this bullpen for anything? Could you imagine seeing Macdougal come up with the bases loaded and nobody out? Nope.

It's just not the same, and that's okay. This team, like another poster said, is flawed. It has been an exciting season, and we have gotten our money's worth as fans. Is this a team that's going to challenge Anaheim, Boston, and Tampa for a pennant? I sincerely doubt it.

southsideirish71
09-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Post season pen will have a Richard to help solidify it. Guys can and do get hot. We need that to happen sometime soon. Who ever is going to win this thing needs that to happen - so it's not like we're alone.

Our starting pitching is playoff caliber.

We just need the following. Someone to Un-Walk the team. Let them know that up the middle and oppo are in fact not outs. That when you get a guy in scoring position that a single can score them. You dont need to hit a dramatic home run to score them. That shortening your swing up when you have a man on, and have 2 strikes is okay. Swinging from your heels trying to park the 0-2 pitch that bounces into the other batters box isnt going to work.

We need a hypnotist to make Ozzie forget about the bunt.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Post season pen will have a Richard to help solidify it. Guys can and do get hot. We need that to happen sometime soon. Who ever is going to win this thing needs that to happen - so it's not like we're alone.


Other than 1 appearance in OAK, has Richard relieved at any level this year? I guess if we are going to convert him, might as well do it now instead of experimenting in the post season.

Here's my take on the rest of the year:

1. We will win the division because the Twins are not that good. 89 wins will get us in.

2. I am hanging all hopes on what appears to be a starting staff getting very hot at just the right time. Come those play-off games, Ozzie is going to let them lose to go 7-8 inning each night. He did it once in '05, I am willing to bet that this will be his formula to win it.

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 09:14 PM
The Sox showed the entire season that they had what it took to be a force in the postseason. They stepped on their own feet for a month or so, then things turned around when the tension eased off of their throats.

That team, once the postseason came around, played the exact same players night in and night out, winning 11 of 12 in the process. This team doesn't have a group of 9 players to consistently put on the field. That chemistry does not exist. When the season's on the line, Ozzie is having to guess who he's going to put out there. Will it be Wise? Anderson? Griffey? Swisher? Who knows?

Even with the great season the Sox had in '05, many games in that postseason came down to clutch moments from the bullpen. Games 2 and 3 of the ALDS, as well as every game of the world series come to mind. Can we count on this bullpen for anything? Could you imagine seeing Macdougal come up with the bases loaded and nobody out? Nope.

It's just not the same, and that's okay. This team, like another poster said, is flawed. It has been an exciting season, and we have gotten our money's worth as fans. Is this a team that's going to challenge Anaheim, Boston, and Tampa for a pennant? I sincerely doubt it.

At this point no, but we can argue that the caliber of pitching the Sox are getting now is just as good as they had received in '05. If we get just one more guy to pitch well in relief the Sox might make it deep.

Plus our offense is better in terms of run production, whether or not we can hit in the clutch I am not so sure...

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:14 PM
6-4 !!!

Go Indians.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:14 PM
Could you imagine seeing Macdougal come up with the bases loaded and nobody out? Nope.

I know that was a great moment, but c'mon. You're telling me you saw El Duque doing that (who BTW, was terrible in September).

The reason that was so amazing was because you couldn't see it coming.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:14 PM
The Sox showed the entire season that they had what it took to be a force in the postseason. They stepped on their own feet for a month or so, then things turned around when the tension eased off of their throats.

That team, once the postseason came around, played the exact same players night in and night out, winning 11 of 12 in the process. This team doesn't have a group of 9 players to consistently put on the field. That chemistry does not exist. When the season's on the line, Ozzie is having to guess who he's going to put out there. Will it be Wise? Anderson? Griffey? Swisher? Who knows?

Even with the great season the Sox had in '05, many games in that postseason came down to clutch moments from the bullpen. Games 2 and 3 of the ALDS, as well as every game of the world series come to mind. Can we count on this bullpen for anything? Could you imagine seeing Macdougal come up with the bases loaded and nobody out? Nope.

It's just not the same, and that's okay. This team, like another poster said, is flawed. It has been an exciting season, and we have gotten our money's worth as fans. Is this a team that's going to challenge Anaheim, Boston, and Tampa for a pennant? I sincerely doubt it.

If we make the postseason, I do think the collars will loosen a little bit. We have a few hitters pressing right now. I know this sounds funny, but I don't think there will be much pressure on the Sox in the playoffs, provided they get in.

We will be huge underdogs against either Tampa Bay or Boston. A wave of Cubbie fever will grip Chicago. No one will even know we are still playing, except those of us who are Silver and Black to the core. We'll have nothing to lose, and I think our players will be able to relax and play their best ball in that environment.

Will our best ball be good enough? I hope we get a chance to find out. Right now, the whole focus needs to be on getting into the playoffs.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:17 PM
:scratch:

Stop before you say something stupid.


Ok, my bad.

All I meant is to get off Walker for once and see that Cooper has had his bullpen impload on him 2 straight seasons.

Let's treat both guys equally.

I meant no harm.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:17 PM
If we make the postseason, I do think the collars will loosen a little bit. We have a few hitters pressing right now. I know this sounds funny, but I don't think there will be much pressure on the Sox in the playoffs, provided they get in.

We will be huge underdogs against either Tampa Bay or Boston. A wave of Cubbie fever will grip Chicago. No one will even know we are still playing, except those of us who are Silver and Black to the core. We'll have nothing to lose, and I think our players will be able to relax and play their best ball in that environment.

Will our best ball be good enough? I hope we get a chance to find out. Right now, the whole focus needs to be on getting into the playoffs.

Yep, no one will even be talking about the Sox.

I don't like most of the comparisons between this year and 2005, but one that I do like is the pressure. Once the pressure came off, they loosened up and played ball again. I think that's entirely possible again.

I don't know that they'll have a ton of success, but I don't think they're going to be one and done.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:19 PM
Ok, my bad.

All I meant is to get off Walker for once and see that Cooper has had his bullpen impload on him 2 straight seasons.

Let's treat both guys equally.

I meant no harm.

When Walker makes a bad hitter into a good one, I'll treat him the same.

Look what Coop has done: Thornton, Contreras, Floyd, Javy.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:20 PM
He did his job the second time....bunted him over and led to our only run
And had Ozzie had leadoff doubles in 5 more innings, and we executed the bunt then the slap to the right side 5 more times, we would have won the game. That's all it would have taken with Ozzie's offensive strategy.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:23 PM
I'd like to see Richard used as the second lefty out of the bullpen, behind Thornton. He never runs into trouble until he hits the third time through the order. Pitching in relief, the opposing hitters wouldn't get three cracks at him.
There's no doubt. And he's going to have to be more than a situational lefty. he is simply better than most of the righties.
I thought when MacDougal came in, that was a good spot for Dotel -with runners on 2nd or 3rd, a homer wasn't much different than a single. Anyway, either MacDougal or Dotel is going to be part of the puzzle.
MacDougal scares the hell out oof me, but I was suprised he didn't pitch the 8th.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:23 PM
Yep, no one will even be talking about the Sox.

I don't like most of the comparisons between this year and 2005, but one that I do like is the pressure. Once the pressure came off, they loosened up and played ball again. I think that's entirely possible again.

I don't know that they'll have a ton of success, but I don't think they're going to be one and done.

One thing we have to keep in mind: The Sox and Twins have been separated by 2.5 games or less every day since the last week of July.

This has been razor close the last TWO MONTHS, a real day-to-day grinder. The pressure is wearing on me as a fan. I'm really short-tempered watching these games. The players are professionals, but they are also human. The pressure of the tight race has to be wearing on them a bit.

If the Sox survive this, I think it will be a huge weight off their shoulders. And if Q can come back and help us at some point, that would be another huge boost.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:25 PM
The pressure to get to the playoffs is 5 times the pressure once in the playoffs...unless you're someone like the braves during their 15 year ru.

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:25 PM
When Walker makes a bad hitter into a good one, I'll treat him the same.

Look what Coop has done: Thornton, Contreras, Floyd, Javy.

I think you got a point there.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Why not just use Richard as a regular reliever in the playoffs?

Why limit him to LOOGY duty?

The same thing goes for Thornton. He can get out both lefties and righties.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:26 PM
There's no doubt. And he's going to have to be more than a situational lefty. he is simply better than most of the righties.
I thought when MacDougal came in, that was a good spot for Dotel -with runners on 2nd or 3rd, a homer wasn't much different than a single. Anyway, either MacDougal or Dotel is going to be part of the puzzle.
MacDougal scares the hell out oof me, but I was suprised he didn't pitch the 8th.

I'd roll the dice with Dotel over MacDougal. I've criticized Dotel a lot on this board, but he HAS done some good things for us this year. He's just been very poor of late.

MacDougal hasn't done anything to help us in pressure situations since he was first acquired in the second half of 2006. He was one of the major reasons for the demise of the 2007 Sox, and he spent most of this season at Charlotte.

If it comes down to those two, I'll bet on Octavio.

Evman5
09-17-2008, 09:27 PM
And had Ozzie had leadoff doubles in 5 more innings, and we executed the bunt then the slap to the right side 5 more times, we would have won the game. That's all it would have taken with Ozzie's offensive strategy.


Did you think that was a bad move to bunt him over?

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 09:27 PM
The pressure to get to the playoffs is 5 times the pressure once in the playoffs...unless you're someone like the braves during their 15 year ru.

No media attention and Ozzie's clubhouse demeanor will make it loosen up a bit if we make it.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:27 PM
One thing we have to keep in mind: The Sox and Twins have been separated by 2.5 games or less every day since the last week of July.

This has been razor close the last TWO MONTHS, a real day-to-day grinder. The pressure is wearing on me as a fan. I'm really short-tempered watching these games. The players are professionals, but they are also human. The pressure of the tight race has to be wearing on them a bit.

If the Sox survive this, I think it will be a huge weight off their shoulders. And if Q can come back and help us at some point, that would be another huge boost.

Now if only someone in the bullpen (and I mean anyone; I don't care if it's Adam Russell, somebody just get the damn job done) could give a boost...

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 09:28 PM
And that is the most frustrating thing. Take a mediocre to bad pitcher who can locate, have him throw off speed stuff out of the zone, and the Sox will chase pitches all night long. We know that. But when you have a bad pitcher, on an off day, who can't locate and consistently misses in the zone, it is even worse.
I'm not sure what you were inferring with the reference to off speed stuff, but we hit finesse pitchers a whole lot better than we hit power pitchers.

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:30 PM
I'm not sure what you were inferring with the reference to off speed stuff, but we hit finesse pitchers a whole lot better than we hit power pitchers.

They still can't hit minor league pitchers.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:30 PM
Did you think that was a bad move to bunt him over?
yes.
How can you play for 1 run early in the game with the heart of the order coming up? WE don't have near the lock-down pitching staff to support that kind of baseball anyway. And we didn't get where we are by playing for 1 run.
The pressure's getting to Guillen so he's reverting to his comfort zone -

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:30 PM
Why not just use Richard as a regular reliever in the playoffs?

Why limit him to LOOGY duty?

The same thing goes for Thornton. He can get out both lefties and righties.

Frater, if you look at the total body of Richard's work at the big-league level this year, he's been significantly better against lefties than righties. Tonight, he was pretty good against everybody except Robinson Cano. But overall, I trust him more against lefties. He's certainly better as a LOOGY than Ramirez or Logan at this point. He'd also be a guy who could give multiple innings if a starter gets knocked out early.

I would agree 100 percent with your comment on Thornton. With the demise of Linebrink, Thornton is clearly established as our second-best reliever right now. I trust him completely against both lefties and righties.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:31 PM
Ozzie's clubhouse demeanor will make it loosen up a bit if we make it. That's his clear strength as manager - keeping the team loose and they play pretty consistent...not a lot of long losing streaks under Oz.

doublem23
09-17-2008, 09:31 PM
Why not just use Richard as a regular reliever in the playoffs?

Why limit him to LOOGY duty?

The same thing goes for Thornton. He can get out both lefties and righties.

Right now we need a 5th starter.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:31 PM
The pressure to get to the playoffs is 5 times the pressure once in the playoffs...unless you're someone like the braves during their 15 year ru.

The Sox will be going to TB or Boston. If it's TB, all that will be talked about is the great story that is the 2008 Rays. If it's Boston, you will only hear about the defending champions. All while at home in Chicago, Cubbie Fever will be through the roof.

The Sox will basically be ignored. Go in with a we've got nothing to lose mentality and we could be the surprise in October. Or go in with the prove everyone wrong attitude like they did all year in 2005. I have confidence in Ozzie getting that team ready to play in the postseason.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:32 PM
If it comes down to those two, I'll bet on Octavio. Oh I agree. MacDougal has done nothign for us; Dotel has had some good moments.
I really thought tonight was a good spot for Dotel, when he put MacDougal in.

Evman5
09-17-2008, 09:33 PM
yes.
How can you play for 1 run early in the game with the heart of the order coming up? WE don't have near the lock-down pitching staff to support that kind of baseball anyway. And we didn't get where we are by playing for 1 run.
The pressure's getting to Guillen so he's reverting to his comfort zone -

I don't have the stats in front of me...but the team that scores first is more than 50% likely to win the game...if your leadoff man gets to second with no outs early in the game...that is your number 2 mans job...get him over and let the big guys drive him in.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:34 PM
When Walker makes a bad hitter into a good one, I'll treat him the same.

Look what Coop has done: Thornton, Contreras, Floyd, Javy.


I think you are not putting enough stock to how important a bullpen is in today's game.

It's all fine and dandy to get all these promising arms to become something at the ML level, but you also need to maintain the effectiveness of everyone else. Boone Logan has a $$$million arm and can't get anyone out. Same goes for MacDougal who was never this bad IMO when he pitched for KC. Then a guy like Dotel is lights out for almost 4 months and now every breaking pitch he throws is a hanging roller.

I'll give him this:
Wasserman is trick pitcher garbage, I can't blame him for that.
Linebrink is still hurt IMO, Coop cannot be blamed for that either.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:34 PM
The Sox will be going to TB or Boston. If it's TB, all that will be talked about is the great story that is the 2008 Rays. If it's Boston, you will only hear about the defending champions. All while at home in Chicago, Cubbie Fever will be through the roof.

The Sox will basically be ignored. Go in with a we've got nothing to lose mentality and we could be the surprise in October.
hell, in 05 they predicted us to go down like bowling pins in the playoffs...and we had the best record in the league.
I think they'll predict a sweep.
I really want to play Tampa - they're probably better than Boston, but that 4 game set in Tampa early this year really pissed me off. (as did the comments from our old friend Dave Wills).

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:36 PM
The Sox will basically be ignored. Go in with a we've got nothing to lose mentality and we could be the surprise in October.

That will have absolutely nothing to do with the outcome.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:37 PM
I think you are not putting enough stock to how important a bullpen is in today's game.

It's all fine and dandy to get all these promising arms to become something at the ML level, but you also need to maintain the effectiveness of everyone else. Boone Logan has a $$$million arm and can't get anyone out.Same goes for MacDougal who was never this bad IMO when he pitched for KC. Then a guy like Dotel is lights out for almost 4 months and now every breaking pitch he throws is a hanging roller.

MacDougal and Logan are two guys that just can't throw strikes consistently. Coop stresses strike one, strike two, put them away...so those two guys just aren't doing it.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:37 PM
That will have absolutely nothing to do with the outcome.

It can take pressure off which will in turn change the outcome.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Oh I agree. MacDougal has done nothign for us; Dotel has had some good moments.
I really thought tonight was a good spot for Dotel, when he put MacDougal in.

Hopefully, tonight's gaffe by MacDougal will show Ozzie that you just can't trust MacDougal when it matters most. A leopard doesn't change his spots.

I think he needs to go back to Dotel in those types of situations. If we're going to win this thing, I think we need Octavio to pitch and pitch well under fire. As we've stated, he has done it at times this season. Just not a lot lately.

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
hell, in 05 they predicted us to go down like bowling pins in the playoffs...and we had the best record in the league.


Who was "they"?

You would have to be baseball retarded to make that prediction.

TDog
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Why can't we execute?

A bigger question is why were the White Sox bunting in the first place? Even if successful, such execution isn't going to produce enough runs to win.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
hell, in 05 they predicted us to go down like bowling pins in the playoffs...and we had the best record in the league.
I think they'll predict a sweep.
I really want to play Tampa - they're probably better than Boston, but that 4 game set in Tampa early this year really pissed me off. (as did the comments from our old friend Dave Wills).

Same. The only team we've really struggled against this year has been Boston...they scare me. I don't want to start the postseason in Fenway. I'd much rather see them in the ALCS, where we would have homefield advantage over them. :cool:

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:40 PM
Who was "they"?

You would have to be baseball retarded to make that prediction.
The entire ESPN crew, plus the extra ones they hired for the series (who were Boston and Connecticut sportswriters) picked Boston to beat us in round 1 in 2005.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:41 PM
Who was "they"?

You would have to be baseball retarded to make that prediction.

Boston was picked over us, Houston was picked over us. I don't remember about the Angels, but we were supposed to get swept in the World Series. Remember, we had to see Clemens, Pettitte, and Oswalt?

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:41 PM
It can take pressure off which will in turn change the outcome.

I doubt players ever look at it that way. The pressure is more intense and it keeps the players focused. Losing means going home.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:41 PM
That will have absolutely nothing to do with the outcome.


I don't understand this either. :scratch:

What does being ignored, media (lack) coverage, etc have to do with winning baseball games?

Is the current media preassure the reason Dotel and Co and cannot get any outs from the pen?

Tragg
09-17-2008, 09:42 PM
Hopefully, tonight's gaffe by MacDougal will show Ozzie that you just can't trust MacDougal when it matters most. . Don't count on it...MacDougal failed last appearance in this sort of spot. Jerry Owens still plays, doesn't he? The leopard is Oz too.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:43 PM
Who was "they"?

You would have to be baseball retarded to make that prediction.

You know as well as I do that there are many stupid people in the world. I saw quite a few "experts" incorrectly select Boston to beat our Sox in the first round of the 2005 playoffs.

The Sporting News ranked us eighth out of eight teams because we were perceived as "limping into the playoffs" after we got the big scare from Cleveland.

nsdjoe
09-17-2008, 09:44 PM
iirc dotel has never pitched anywhere near this many innings. he's probably out of gas.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:44 PM
Boston was picked over us, Houston was picked over us. I don't remember about the Angels, but we were supposed to get swept in the World Series. Remember, we had to see Clemens, Pettitte, and Oswalt?


I highly doubt the 25 players in that clubhouse care about this.

It's like Brian Urlacher told Andrea Kremer after beating the Colts, " We expected to win."

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:44 PM
I doubt players ever look at it that way. The pressure is more intense and it keeps the players focused. Losing means going home.

You don't look at it any certain way. I'd consider it more of a state of mind.

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:45 PM
Don't count on it...MacDougal failed last appearance in this sort of spot. Jerry Owens still plays, doesn't he? The leopard is Oz too.

I hope Coop talks Ozzie out of using MacDougal. They sent Mac down to Charlotte for a reason. And it was a good reason.

Yes, Jerry Owens still plays. The Sox won in spite of him last night.

TheOldRoman
09-17-2008, 09:46 PM
The entire ESPN crew, plus the extra ones they hired for the series (who were Boston and Connecticut sportswriters) picked Boston to beat us in round 1 in 2005.Well, ESPN does have a storied history of hiring buffoons whose predictions go along fully with either their rooting interests or their current "now" team.

2007 NFC Championship Game

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/TheOldRoman/Espnmorons.jpg

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2008, 09:47 PM
You know as well as I do that there are many stupid people in the world. I saw quite a few "experts" incorrectly select Boston to beat our Sox in the first round of the 2005 playoffs.

The Sporting News ranked us eighth out of eight teams because we were perceived as "limping into the playoffs" after we got the big scare from Cleveland.


And then the "Experts" picked us to win it all in 2006.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:48 PM
I highly doubt the 25 players in that clubhouse care about this.

It's like Brian Urlacher told Andrea Kremer after beating the Colts, " We expected to win."

I remember Paulie listing the things off in each series that pissed him and the rest of the team off in his speech at the parade. They notice it. They will notice when no one is paying attention to them, they will notice when they're not getting picked (this is one thing that kept that 2005 team rolling).

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 09:49 PM
...

I am glad the decision was made to start Richard over the awful Broadway. Nice outing, Clayton (though next time I'd suggest not issuing 4-pitch walks in late innings of a tight pennant race game against the Yankees, but that's nitpicking).

Bottomline: Sox still can't consistently perform on the road. It's amazing that even otherwise intelligent Sox fans who constantly search for clues of just what exactly separated the 2005 team from the other equally-talented-but-ultimately-unsuccessful Sox teams (such as the 2003, 2006, 2008 squads) forget that the 2005 team had an outstanding 58-29 record away from USCF, which included their mini-swoon in Aug/Sept........... 2005 team had the drive & focus the arguably more-talented 2008 squad can only dream of, in other words.

Phil Hughes is one of the worst "phenoms" I've ever seen. They talked him up like he was the next Mark Prior or Rich Harden or something. He was essentially BP today and should have gotten the Gio Gonzalez treatment, with Sox putting the game away long before the fateful 7th inning. That's what lost the game right there, no killer instinct at all.

Jermaine Dye showing that all the talk of MVP was ludicrous without Quentin in the line-up to take the pressure off of him. I don't know what it is, but all of the sudden Jermaine looks old - both at the plate and in the field. Maybe he just can't perform if temperatures are below 85 degrees...

Lay off MacDougal. He's the best option to bring in that situation as scary as it sounds. The mistake was to NOT bring him in to face right-handed Nady with 2 outs and Sox still up. No way Nady catches up to his fastball in that situation, but LH Richard's floating change-up was just what the doctor ordered after the rapidly tiring Clayton fell behind 2-0....

Minnesota is trying their bestest to ensure Sox win the division, is it too much to ask the Sox to flash some motherlovin' killer instinct and close the damn deal, like, NOW? :mad:

PS. No more bunting or wire hangers, ever! :angry:




...

JB98
09-17-2008, 09:49 PM
Well, ESPN does have a storied history of hiring buffoons whose predictions go along fully with either their rooting interests or their current "now" team.

2007 NFC Championship Game

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/TheOldRoman/Espnmorons.jpg

LOL.

And who can forget Jayson Stark's "lovable pick" of the 2007 Cubbies.

IIRC, I was the only sports staffer from the Aurora Beacon News to correctly select the Arizona Diamondbacks to win the NLDS last October.

:)

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 09:50 PM
The entire ESPN crew, plus the extra ones they hired for the series (who were Boston and Connecticut sportswriters) picked Boston to beat us in round 1 in 2005.

I put ESPN under baseball retarded.

Chris Berman displayed what little talent he has. DJ runs circles around him doing play by play.

After 2005 I don't consider ESPN very reputable.

oeo
09-17-2008, 09:51 PM
Phil Hughes is one of the worst "phenoms" I've ever seen. They talked him up like he was the next Mark Prior or Rich Harden or something.

Hughes is what, 22? They definitely expected too much, too early, but if the Yankees want to give up on him, I hope Kenny is on the phone.

Danks stanks...I remember that last year.

tdwiek
09-17-2008, 10:01 PM
Indians win 6-4, magic number now in single digits at 9...

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 10:02 PM
3 1/2 up would have sounded so nice. Twins lost.

Tragg
09-17-2008, 10:02 PM
BTW, why couldn't we get to Hughes? He threw like 8 pitches in 4 innings and we had 1 run.

hawkjt
09-17-2008, 10:03 PM
KC and the Indians are playing better than the Twins and Sox right now.
Thank you tribe,for the sweep. Thank the lord.
But I do not want to play the tribe with anything on the line next weekend. They are healthy and loose.

Sox need to go beat Mussina tomorrow nite ...please.
Lose to the two rookies...beat Pettite and Mussina..that would be very sox-like.

tdwiek
09-17-2008, 10:04 PM
Isn't that 4 in a row for the Twinkies? Man, we could have really jumped out ahead!!!

SoxSpeed22
09-17-2008, 10:06 PM
Hughes got away with so many hangers tonight. Richard pitched like he had a pair, which is good for his chances of making the team in '09. Hopefully they can split tomorrow against the Yankees.

JB98
09-17-2008, 10:06 PM
Isn't that 4 in a row for the Twinkies? Man, we could have really jumped out ahead!!!

We did. The Sox were tied for first with the Twins as recently as Sunday morning. It's now Wednesday night, and the Sox lead by 2.5 games.

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 10:07 PM
Someone said that this team can't get it done on the road. Anyone notice how incredible our starting pitching has been?

Emm pitching wins championships and something tells me before the season is over that we will find that 7th inning reliever. Scott Linebrink just needs innings. He blew today but Ozzie needed to throw him out there to get him back.

11 games is enough to solidify this club. Making the playoffs is unexpected- everything else from there will be gravy. And I LOVE gravy.

sox1970
09-17-2008, 10:07 PM
Sox will go 3-1 the next 4. Twins will split with Tampa at best.

Magic Number will be 3 or 4 when the Sox get to the Dome.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

kitekrazy
09-17-2008, 10:08 PM
KC and the Indians are playing better than the Twins and Sox right now.
Thank you tribe,for the sweep. Thank the lord.
But I do not want to play the tribe with anything on the line next weekend. They are healthy and loose.

Sox need to go beat Mussina tomorrow nite ...please.
Lose to the two rookies...beat Pettite and Mussina..that would be very sox-like.

Javi's going tomorrow. HE's been very solid of late, no run support.
I have a feeling the evil Javi will show up and with the pen the Yanks will score double digits.

tdwiek
09-17-2008, 10:09 PM
We did. The Sox were tied for first with the Twins as recently as Sunday morning. It's now Wednesday night, and the Sox lead by 2.5 games.

Guess you're right, it seems like we have done worse. I wish we would put a string of consecutive wins together. When is the last time we won more than 2 in a row?

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 10:11 PM
Javi's going tomorrow. HE's been very solid of late, no run support.
I have a feeling the evil Javi will show up and with the pen the Yanks will score double digits.

Optimism reigns!

Bill Naharodny
09-17-2008, 10:11 PM
Hughes got away with so many hangers tonight. Richard pitched like he had a pair, which is good for his chances of making the team in '09. Hopefully they can split tomorrow against the Yankees.

If we make he playoffs, my guess is that Richard is the 2nd lefty out of the pen, behind Thornton.

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 10:13 PM
BTW, why couldn't we get to Hughes? He threw like 8 pitches in 4 innings and we had 1 run.

Walkerball.

(Griffey, Cabrera notwithstanding.)

Noneck
09-17-2008, 10:13 PM
Sox will go 3-1 the next 4. Twins will split with Tampa at best.

Magic Number will be 3 or 4 when the Sox get to the Dome.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Maybe, Just Maybe 1

MetroPD
09-17-2008, 10:17 PM
Once again a nobody pitcher does us in. We look like a Class A team watching some of those pitches.

turners56
09-17-2008, 10:19 PM
I wasn't expecting a win today anyhow. :shrug: At least the Twins lost. Try and split the series tommorow.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 10:25 PM
I saw alot of bad cuts today due to the cutter Hughes was throwing. The only guy who had good cuts was Cabrera and Ken "isn't as adequate as Swisher" Griffey.

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 10:31 PM
The cutter probably threw off the hitter's rhythms throughout the game as none of the sox hitters looked too comfortable at the plate. ESPECIALLY J.D.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2008, 10:32 PM
Keep in mind the Royals have been playing well of late and always play the Sox like it's the 7th game of the World Series. They can not afford to let down one second against those guys this weekend.

Lip

chisoxfanatic
09-17-2008, 10:33 PM
Same. The only team we've really struggled against this year has been Boston...they scare me. I don't want to start the postseason in Fenway. I'd much rather see them in the ALCS, where we would have homefield advantage over them. :cool:
We played better against Boston this year than Tampa! We played three extra games with Tampa and lost two of those three. That said, I still want to face Tampa first.

JB98
09-17-2008, 10:34 PM
Guess you're right, it seems like we have done worse. I wish we would put a string of consecutive wins together. When is the last time we won more than 2 in a row?

Sept. 3-6. Three wins in a row, one over Cleveland and two over Anaheim.

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 10:38 PM
The cutter probably threw off the hitter's rhythms throughout the game as none of the sox hitters looked too comfortable at the plate. ESPECIALLY J.D.

Well, if Phil Hughes can throw everyone off-balance with his mediocre cutter in a regular season game, I can only imagine how super-comfortable Sox hitters will look, say, against Beckett or Matsuzaka in the playoffs....:rolleyes:

I am tired of excuses. This is arguably the most talented line-up in baseball, and with USCF being the bandbox that is in the summer, Sox should be scoring 900+ runs and comfortably cruising to 7-10 game division win.

EuroSox35
09-17-2008, 10:40 PM
If we make he playoffs, my guess is that Richard is the 2nd lefty out of the pen, behind Thornton.

I would like to try him out of the pen during the season more though, the whole thing about not everyone liking the transition, just can't assume the same or better results, different mentality, yada yada yada

Foulke You
09-17-2008, 10:54 PM
Keep in mind the Royals have been playing well of late and always play the Sox like it's the 7th game of the World Series. They can not afford to let down one second against those guys this weekend.

Lip
I agree. We need to take care of business at Kaufmann. Our overall road struggles continue to baffle me this year. We have now lost 7 of our last 10 road games. This trend has to stop or we could let the Twins back into this if we're not careful. One area that shines brightly for the Sox is the offensive struggles away from home. As a team, we hit .256 on the road and 297 RBI. At home we hit .273 as a club with 432 RBI. This is a huge difference in production and is the main reason we struggle so much on the road.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2008, 11:04 PM
Foulke:

Ozzie himself said it just a few days ago to one of the writers at White Sox.com, (paraphrasing) 'I can't believe how awful we are when we don't hit a home run...'

Take this team out of said bandbox into some tough road locations to hit home runs in, like Seattle, Oakland, Detroit for example and they have trouble winning because they can't figure out a different way to score runs. On the road when you're not comfortable, sleeping in your own bed etc. you have to have the ability to do different things to steal away wins.

From everything I'm hearing Kenny has finally decided that enough is enough and wants to shake things up, I hope he can get it done this off season but for now as the Dramatics once sang in 1971, 'whatcha see is whatcha get...'

Lip

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 11:16 PM
Well, if Phil Hughes can throw everyone off-balance with his mediocre cutter in a regular season game, I can only imagine how super-comfortable Sox hitters will look, say, against Beckett or Matsuzaka in the playoffs....:rolleyes:

I am tired of excuses. This is arguably the most talented line-up in baseball, and with USCF being the bandbox that is in the summer, Sox should be scoring 900+ runs and comfortably cruising to 7-10 game division win.

And people say I'm way off on my opinions. This has to be one of the biggest right here.

Konerko05
09-17-2008, 11:19 PM
And people say I'm way off on my opinions. This has to be one of the biggest right here.

Aww someone's mad Griffey wouldn't even be starting in this lineup if it weren't for injuries. Don't cry. Seriously.

grv1974
09-17-2008, 11:22 PM
Aww someone's mad Griffey wouldn't even be starting in this lineup if it weren't for injuries. Don't cry. Seriously.

Yeah, really. I still want Anderson out there. I'm sick of this Jr. crap.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 11:31 PM
Aww someone's mad Griffey wouldn't even be starting in this lineup if it weren't for injuries. Don't cry. Seriously.

Hahaha, now that is ignorant for sure. The guy goes multi hit and you can actually claim you have an argument. Man, I love how you've succumb to the fact that Swisher sucks, the rest of this exciting lineup besides Cabrera looked pitiful, and Griffey continues his march to Cooperstown. Stick those "tears" up your butt.

Konerko05
09-17-2008, 11:36 PM
Hahaha, now that is ignorant for sure. The guy goes multi hit and you can actually claim you have an argument. Man, I love how you've succumb to the fact that Swisher sucks, the rest of this exciting lineup besides Cabrera looked pitiful, and Griffey continues his march to Cooperstown. Stick those "tears" up your butt.

Your baseball intelligence is off the charts. You must have played at the high school level.

Seriously though, Griffey marched his way to Cooperstown a long time ago. Now he's just waiting.

Give it up already.

slavko
09-17-2008, 11:38 PM
Don't count on it...MacDougal failed last appearance in this sort of spot. Jerry Owens still plays, doesn't he? The leopard is Oz too.

Add Cooper to your list. He said in this AM's Trib that Mac was right behind Thornton and Jenks in his ranking of the pen. Maybe Mac's problem is that his pitches have such crazy movement that they can't be controlled.

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Another guy with a 9 ERA comes in and puts the team down. Low and away, low and away. Every hitters swinging from their toes, looking for this mysterious fastball down the middle, only to find out its a slider, or a changeup. Good hitting teams figure out how to drive the runner in. Good hitting teams use the entire field, not just the spot between the 3rd basesman and the SS. Another QS lost. Its April again.

Sometimes even a 9.00 ERA pitcher can throw a gem.

This, however, was not one of those times. Hughes was bad, almost Lance Broadway bad. Richard really did deserve better fate.

oeo
09-17-2008, 11:56 PM
We played better against Boston this year than Tampa! We played three extra games with Tampa and lost two of those three. That said, I still want to face Tampa first.

Well, if you just look at the record, we were terrible against them. I feel like all 10 of those games were winnable, though. OTOH, the Red Sox took it to us a couple times in Boston.

oeo
09-17-2008, 11:58 PM
Take this team out of said bandbox into some tough road locations to hit home runs in, like Seattle, Oakland, Detroit for example and they have trouble winning because they can't figure out a different way to score runs. On the road when you're not comfortable, sleeping in your own bed etc. you have to have the ability to do different things to steal away wins.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to think of the last time we struggled in Detroit. Even with the big ballpark, we still hit a lot of dingers there.

IronFisk
09-18-2008, 12:01 AM
Oh that sucked. Seeing the twinks lose again does me no good either - we are simply backing into a division title. Oh well, it'd be nice if we could at least clinch at home next weekend - didn't get that thrill in 05.

Blueprint1
09-18-2008, 12:02 AM
We have to figure out how to win on the road. If we can't do that how are we going to win in Minnesota?

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:05 AM
As bad as the bullpen was, it shouldn't have mattered. They should have tagged Hughes for 8 or made the Yankees go to the pen in the 3rd.

+2

Look. In a perfect world, MacDougal & Thornton would have no weaknesses and ERA of zero.

In reality, however, both pitchers are much better when you ask them to start their own innings, with bases empty and fielders playing back - not having to come and bail the starter out with runner at 3rd time and time again. Both are quite good in that role.

Linebrink sucks right now, hard, and might not have even been used had the Sox offense done its job tonight.

We should be 4 games up in the Loss column right now. Motherlover. :mad:

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:12 AM
I'm not sure what you were inferring with the reference to off speed stuff, but we hit finesse pitchers a whole lot better than we hit power pitchers.

You mean like Matt Cain, Edwin Jackson, Sabathia, Verlander, Halladay, Bucholtz, Cabrera among others this year?

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:15 AM
hell, in 05 they predicted us to go down like bowling pins in the playoffs...and we had the best record in the league.
I think they'll predict a sweep.
I really want to play Tampa - they're probably better than Boston, but that 4 game set in Tampa early this year really pissed me off. (as did the comments from our old friend Dave Wills).

One not so small difference: 2005 had homefield advantage in the playoffs. 2008 won't.

Peaking at the right time is more important than homefield advantage, yes, but it's not as if Sox are winning 9 of 10 lately, either.

Time will tell.

doublem23
09-18-2008, 12:22 AM
iirc dotel has never pitched anywhere near this many innings. he's probably out of gas.

Except in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004.

He averages 90 IP every 162 games. To date, he's pitched 62 innings.

doublem23
09-18-2008, 12:24 AM
Keep in mind the Royals have been playing well of late and always play the Sox like it's the 7th game of the World Series. They can not afford to let down one second against those guys this weekend.

Lip

I love the vibe in this thread.

Some of you are babies. We lost; have a drink and deal with it.

Nellie_Fox
09-18-2008, 12:26 AM
I love the vibe in this thread.

Some of you are babies. We lost; have a drink and deal with it.:cheers: :drunken:

LoveYourSuit
09-18-2008, 12:27 AM
Foulke:

Ozzie himself said it just a few days ago to one of the writers at White Sox.com, (paraphrasing) 'I can't believe how awful we are when we don't hit a home run...'

Take this team out of said bandbox into some tough road locations to hit home runs in, like Seattle, Oakland, Detroit for example and they have trouble winning because they can't figure out a different way to score runs. On the road when you're not comfortable, sleeping in your own bed etc. you have to have the ability to do different things to steal away wins.

From everything I'm hearing Kenny has finally decided that enough is enough and wants to shake things up, I hope he can get it done this off season but for now as the Dramatics once sang in 1971, 'whatcha see is whatcha get...'

Lip


I think Kenny is dreaming big time. Jose Contreras and his wasted contract is going to handcuff this team next season to being able to do other things (FA). Konerko, Dye, Thome, Swisher, & AJ are not going anywhere. It looks to be that Juan Uribe has earned his way back to the team future picture. Add Quentin and Alexei and now you have 8 starters taken. I guess if getting Figgins to replace OC at the top of the order is considered "shaking things up," well that's what it will be.

RockJock07
09-18-2008, 12:35 AM
Foulke:

Ozzie himself said it just a few days ago to one of the writers at White Sox.com, (paraphrasing) 'I can't believe how awful we are when we don't hit a home run...'

Take this team out of said bandbox into some tough road locations to hit home runs in, like Seattle, Oakland, Detroit for example and they have trouble winning because they can't figure out a different way to score runs. On the road when you're not comfortable, sleeping in your own bed etc. you have to have the ability to do different things to steal away wins.

From everything I'm hearing Kenny has finally decided that enough is enough and wants to shake things up, I hope he can get it done this off season but for now as the Dramatics once sang in 1971, 'whatcha see is whatcha get...'

Lip

I think this is a great move, something has to be done with this team. Pitching wise I'm content, plus no one in the bullpen is going anywhere. Dotel, Linebrink, Jenks will all be back.

This offense needs speed. I'm not sure who you trade, maybe paulie and JD. Kenny will have to be creative but he's shown that he can do it. But if he's serious about having enough then some drastic things are going to happen.

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:39 AM
I think Kenny is dreaming big time. Jose Contreras and his wasted contract is going to handcuff this team next season to being able to do other things (FA). Konerko, Dye, Thome, Swisher, & AJ are not going anywhere. It looks to be that Juan Uribe has earned his way back to the team future picture. Add Quentin and Alexei and now you have 8 starters taken. I guess if getting Figgins to replace OC at the top of the order is considered "shaking things up," well that's what it will be.

I remember crudely breaking down the payroll and salaries in another thread. If Sox can find any taker for the (rejuvenated) Konerko + departures of Cabrera, Crede, Ozuna and possibly Uribe... There are other trade options, too, but even going strictly by FA market activity, you'd be suprised how many options a team has when its payroll is 120+ Mill. Not easy but doable.

And if Sox make it to the World Series, including 4-7 home games, that is some really $$$ gravy right there. :bandance:

LoveYourSuit
09-18-2008, 12:44 AM
I remember crudely breaking down the payroll and salaries in another thread. If Sox can find any taker for the (rejuvenated) Konerko + departures of Cabrera, Crede, Ozuna and possibly Uribe... There are other trade options, too, but even going strictly by FA market activity, you'd be suprised how many options a team has when its payroll is 120+ Mill. Not easy but doable.

And if Sox make it to the World Series, including 4-7 home games, that is some really $$$ gravy right there. :bandance:


I have a feeling Swisher only plays one season with the Sox. He has a movable contract and is still young where the Sox can get something OK in return. I think the Sox (Kenny and Ozzie) are a bit sour on not getting what they expected from Swish.

chisoxfanatic
09-18-2008, 12:48 AM
Adele H,

It doesn't look like this division will be won by at least five games. That is all. :P

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:48 AM
I have a feeling Swisher only plays one season with the Sox. He has a movable contract and is still young where the Sox can get something OK in return. I think the Sox (Kenny and Ozzie) are a bit sour on not getting what they expected from Swish.

I'd rather move Konerko, but if not, then getting rid of Swisher might not be the worst idea in the world. I've had enough of his shrunken bicepts/upper body and general head-casery.

Nearly 6 Mill off the books next year, if that's the case.

LoveYourSuit
09-18-2008, 12:53 AM
I'd rather move Konerko, but if not, then getting rid of Swisher might not be the worst idea in the world. I've had enough of his shrunken bicepts/upper body and general head-casery.

Nearly 6 Mill off the books next year, if that's the case.


I wish their was GM dumb enough to take Paulie's $24 million debt off our hands, and Paulie and family to consider that place a great destination for them (has trade blocking ability).

I highly doubt it will happen.

Swisher is the easier of the two to move.

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Adele H,

It doesn't look like this division will be won by at least five games. That is all. :P

Sox are up by 3 in the loss column playing as badly/inconsistently as they can possibly play.

Any reasonable improvement in play from here on out, including taking 2 of 3 from the fading Minnesota - and we're up 5 games, easily.

Though admittedly when I made my prediction, I didn't expect Quentin to break his hand on a bat, which is making things more interesting than I wanted. I mean, I can see the future usually, but not that time apparently :cool:

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 01:03 AM
I wish their was GM dumb enough to take Paulie's $24 million debt off our hands, and Paulie and family to consider that place a great destination for them (has trade blocking ability).

I highly doubt it will happen.

Swisher is the easier of the two to move.


Teams know Konerko's season was derailed by several nagging injuries, it happens.

It's not as if they'd be getting a player with no upside. Konerko has had track-record of success, pedigree as a former elite prospect & profile as the leader of the 2005 Champions that stunned the East Coast elites.

Konerko's still only 32, a hard worker looking for redeption, which makes it possible (if not necessarily probable) for him to return to 900 OPS range next year if completely healthy. And since he's considered to be a "clean" slugger, that kind of production would be at premium as drug-testing gradually becomes more tough.

12 Mill per is no chump change, so the Sox won't expect to see much in return, basically a salary dump. Hopefully some win-now, offense-desperate GM on the hot seat deems it worth the risk.

10/5 is a problem, but if Paulie gets a hint that he is simply not wanted in Chicago and won't be a starter next year, he'll waive it.

hawkjt
09-18-2008, 01:30 AM
Trading PK is selling at his low value point. What's the point,anyway?
Speed? Hitting average? PK is going to bounce back and hit .280 I suspect. Trade Swish, ok. Find a centerfielder who can lead off to go With Alexei,Juan,Carlos,Getz you have adequate speed. JD and AJ are passable...Thome and PK are slow...they hit homers.
They do all have to hit for higher averages ...

palehozenychicty
09-18-2008, 08:50 AM
One thing we have to keep in mind: The Sox and Twins have been separated by 2.5 games or less every day since the last week of July.

This has been razor close the last TWO MONTHS, a real day-to-day grinder. The pressure is wearing on me as a fan. I'm really short-tempered watching these games. The players are professionals, but they are also human. The pressure of the tight race has to be wearing on them a bit.

If the Sox survive this, I think it will be a huge weight off their shoulders. And if Q can come back and help us at some point, that would be another huge boost.


I have been buying this as well. I think it could even lead to a few more division titles in the future if they can hold off the Twins. This decade they have yet to beat them out late in the season for the crown. Organizations don't like to admit that, but it matters. Let's start it now.

Lundind1
09-18-2008, 09:07 AM
Games like this really make me upset. It seems like things are going great and we just can't close the deal. What a shame.

palehozenychicty
09-18-2008, 09:21 AM
Hughes is what, 22? They definitely expected too much, too early, but if the Yankees want to give up on him, I hope Kenny is on the phone.

Danks stanks...I remember that last year.

Oh, he will be.

If anything, the Yanks may be returning to the dark days of Mel Hall, Andy Stankiewicz, Kevin Maas, and Stump Merrill. They've looked old and boring all season, and they have a ton of atrocious deals on their position players. Spending the money they get off the books this year on CC and Sheets won't help them at all. One last thing, the Red Sox beating the Yanks in '04 exposed them as the emperor without clothes. Darth Vader has been vanquished, and is looking for his helmet.

Anyhow, the Sox should have definitely got yesterday's game, but Cleveland has helped us out a little. We get two in KC, I think we can ride it out until the end.

cws05champ
09-18-2008, 09:25 AM
I havn't read through this whole thread, but I wish they would look at a couple other guys to help in the BP. Where's Adam Russell, and how about Jason Childers. I know Childers is 33 and in AAA but he had a good season and he can't be much worse than the releivers we're throwing out there right now.

oeo
09-18-2008, 09:31 AM
I wish their was GM dumb enough to take Paulie's $24 million debt off our hands, and Paulie and family to consider that place a great destination for them (has trade blocking ability).

I highly doubt it will happen.

Swisher is the easier of the two to move.

Yeah, if you want close to nothing in return. What about buying high, selling low is good baseball strategy? :?:

JB98
09-18-2008, 01:19 PM
I have been buying this as well. I think it could even lead to a few more division titles in the future if they can hold off the Twins. This decade they have yet to beat them out late in the season for the crown. Organizations don't like to admit that, but it matters. Let's start it now.

Good point. I was thinking about this earlier today. The two times the Sox have won the division this decade, they won a pennant race with Cleveland. They have not won a pennant race with the Twins yet.

Since 2002, the Twins have won every time they've been in the race. It was absurd that Minnesota won the division in 2006. Shame on both the Sox and the Tigers for that one.

In the past, the Twins had that steady veteran influence from guys like Hunter and Radke. This season, they are very young. If we could just piece together a modest three- or four-game winning streak right now, we could probably put them away.

The Sox just seem to have a mental block when it comes to the Twins. Now is the time to clear that hurdle.

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 01:53 PM
Yeah, if you want close to nothing in return. What about buying high, selling low is good baseball strategy? :?:

This isn't stock market.

Sox need an all-star caliber lead-off hitter badly, and dumping Konerko's salary opens up salary room for KW to explore, via trade or signing.