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SluggersAway
09-15-2008, 05:25 AM
The "bon mots" from the interview (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=3703):

ML: Again, however this season turns out, the off season figures to be very interesting. Orlando Cabrera is gone, Joe Crede is probably gone, Jose Contreras is probably done as a pitcher so they are going to need another starter. They may try to trade Paul Konerko and give first base to Nick Swisher, you’ve got the Jim Thome contract situation and they may ask Ken Griffey back at a severely reduced contract… but I’m hearing the names of Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson a lot, from a lot of different sources as the new 3rd baseman and 2nd baseman respectively next year with Alexei Ramirez moving to shortstop. If that’s true what does that tell you?

CR: “It tells me that Kenny (Williams) is trying to do what Ozzie Guillen has been asking for and that’s more balance. He wants those two guys because of their bat control. Put them in the Sox lineup and suddenly Ozzie can hit and run more, he can put guys in motion on the bases and those guys can advance them around for the sluggers.”
“Now that doesn’t mean that Kenny hasn’t tried to do this in the past. Remember every team has a list of needs but if you can’t get plan A for example, or plan B, that doesn’t mean you just don’t do anything. You go to plan C. Take getting Griffey at the deadline… I know the Sox needed pitching help, Kenny knew that and he tried very hard to get it. (Author’s Note: Newspaper accounts quoted two G.M.’s anonymously as confirming this.) But because he couldn’t, does that mean he shouldn’t do anything to help improve the team? He gave up two spare parts in Nick Masset and Danny Richar for a guy who can help…I don’t have a problem with that.”

“I also know that the Sox would really like to move Dye to DH next season so we’ll have to see how that plays out.”

ML: You also have some thoughts on Josh Fields don’t you?

CR: “I wasn’t there when Josh was told that he was being sent back to Triple A – Charlotte but I’ve spoken to a number of people who were and they tell me he was absolutely devastated. I don’t understand that response. Did Josh really feel that if Joe Crede was healthy that he was going to get the starting position? Crede is a guy who plays Gold Glove caliber defense and who had some of the biggest moments in the Sox drive to a World Championship. Josh was not going to be starting over him. I know that Josh has been hurt at times this year and maybe he didn’t get as much of a chance when he was called up in July but there are a lot of people who think he has regressed. It wouldn’t be a shock to me if the White Sox traded him this off season, and based on Ozzie Guillen’s comments at the time, Boone Logan either.”

To conclude:

Definitely no Orlando Carbrera.
Probably no Joe Crede.
Probably no Jose Contreras.
Possibly no Paul Konerko.
Possibly no Jim Thome.
Possibly no Ken Griffey.
Probably no Josh Fields.
Probably no Boone Logan.

My first reaction is who will replace Contreras? Also, does Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson work for you? Do we really not believe Carbrera is worth the money or do we think we can find someone better or do we know that he does not want to sign with the Sox? What about all the talent and devoted players we are possibly letting go? If they want Dye as the DH who do we see in RF and what do we get for Konerko/Thome? If Griffey does not sign then who are playing CF? And what about the bullpen besides the Logan move?

veeter
09-15-2008, 09:51 AM
I actually hope Cabrera stays for a while. But regardless, I can't wait to see what Kenny Wiliams has in store for next season. As well as the Sox are hanging in this year, next year, I feel is going to be huge.

chaerulez
09-15-2008, 09:58 AM
Well, that's what $40-50 million in salary? I'd imagine with that money saved we'd get a free agent or two. Maybe three, since the payroll this year would've been increased by $12 or so if Hunter agreed to terms with the Sox.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Well, that's what $40-50 million in salary? I'd imagine with that money saved we'd get a free agent or two. Maybe three, since the payroll this year would've been increased by $12 or so if Hunter agreed to terms with the Sox.

That's assuming no other move would have been made...I'm guessing we'd have made a salary dump somewhere if Hunter/Rowand came here.

Evman5
09-15-2008, 10:20 AM
My first reaction is who will replace Contreras? Also, does Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson work for you? Do we really not believe Carbrera is worth the money or do we think we can find someone better or do we know that he does not want to sign with the Sox? What about all the talent and devoted players we are possibly letting go? If they want Dye as the DH who do we see in RF and what do we get for Konerko/Thome? If Griffey does not sign then who are playing CF? And what about the bullpen besides the Logan move?

1. Replace Contreras with Broadway or Richard. We have 4 solid starters in MB GF, JV and JD. If one of Broadway or Richard falters use the other. You also have Contreras as a possibility to comeback during the season. Worst case pick up a starter in a trade during the season. I would feel fine with this approach.

2. Hudson and Figgins would be great at the top of the order. Probably Figgins at leadoff because he is more of a stealing threat. Both take a decent amount of walks and both have higher OBp's than Cabrera.

3. Personally I'd like to see BA in center field next year. I love his defense and I like the way he has swung the bat this year. I agree with DJ's assessment that he has turned the corner as a solid MLB player. With consistent playing time I think you would see some nice numbers from him.

4. The Dye/Thome/PK/ Griffey situation I don't know but somebody's got to go. If Thome's option is automatically excercised I am assuming he will be here as DH, so I don't see how you can move Dye to DH.

gr8mexico
09-15-2008, 10:25 AM
I actually hope Cabrera stays for a while. But regardless, I can't wait to see what Kenny Wiliams has in store for next season. As well as the Sox are hanging in this year, next year, I feel is going to be huge.
I hope Cabrera doesn't come back. He turns 34 this winter and Orlando Hudson is a safer pick. Cabrera doesn't even want to play for the White Sox. The Sox should have some money to spend next year with the departure of Orlando Cabrera, Joe Crede and hopefully Paul Konerko.
They Should also trade Javier Vazquez maybe to the Mets or maybe even the Marlins. That should free up money to make a run at C.C and make this team a contender for many years to come.

oeo
09-15-2008, 10:28 AM
I actually hope Cabrera stays for a while. But regardless, I can't wait to see what Kenny Wiliams has in store for next season. As well as the Sox are hanging in this year, next year, I feel is going to be huge.

I think Cabrera's been okay for us, but I wouldn't want him around any longer than a couple more years. He'll likely be looking for more than that.

oeo
09-15-2008, 10:31 AM
4. The Dye/Thome/PK/ Griffey situation I don't know but somebody's got to go. If Thome's option is automatically excercised I am assuming he will be here as DH, so I don't see how you can move Dye to DH.

Well, Griffey won't be back...he's not a part of any "situation. The other three will, unless we somehow trade Konerko. Although, selling high on Dye may be the best way to go. We need another starting pitcher, and Dye could be a big piece in getting that.

BTW, Rongey is wrong on the Fields situation. Fields was not going to play over Crede, but he was pretty much told the job was his. Why else were they trying to deal Crede? Plan A had Crede going elsewhere for a pitcher, and Fields starting at 3B.

PeoriaSoxFan
09-15-2008, 10:48 AM
If I am right Figgins is not a free agent, so we would have to find some way to trade for him. I am not sure about Hudson. I think they have limited, if any flexibility, with Thome and Konerko, given their contracts and no trade for Paulie. I feel their #1 need, by far, is to find a Centerfielder, with speed, who can hit for average and play defense. Beyond that, it is quite obvious that KW needs to find more bullpen help in a serious way.

I think the guy who could get deal is Swisher, but I question what his value is at this point.

oeo
09-15-2008, 10:52 AM
If I am right Figgins is not a free agent, so we would have to find some way to trade for him. I am not sure about Hudson. I think they have limited, if any flexibility, with Thome and Konerko, given their contracts and no trade for Paulie. I feel their #1 need, by far, is to find a Centerfielder, with speed, who can hit for average and play defense. Beyond that, it is quite obvious that KW needs to find more bullpen help in a serious way.

I'd say a starting pitcher is more important than anything.

I think the guy who could get deal is Swisher, but I question what his value is at this point.Swisher isn't going anywhere because of that. That's not being a very good General Manager: buying high, then selling low. Swisher will be coming off the worst season of his career...you don't trade a guy then.

Again, I know people hate the idea around here of selling high (everyone would rather just sell low on guys like Swisher, Konerko, etc.), but Dye is probably the most realistic trading chip that can give us something of value. I think Konerko will be fine, so Dye's production can be replaced.

In a dream scenario, Thome isn't back next year and you can put Dye into the DH role, but that isn't going to happen.

102605
09-15-2008, 10:53 AM
The White Sox still have to pay Contreras next season whether he comes back or not.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 10:53 AM
I think the guy who could get deal is Swisher, but I question what his value is at this point.

I wouldn't sell low on Swisher. I'm more than willing to give him another shot.

btrain929
09-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Just to comment on different things I've read in this thread:

-Jose Contreras might not pitch for us next year, but we're still paying for him (unless we have insurance on him to save us, but I haven't heard if we do or not). So him not pitching isn't freeing up any money.
-Thome's option will kick in/vest, so he'll be our DH and Dye will be our RF, no doubt about it.
-Fields is just a waste right now with us. He doesn't look ready to play offensively or defensively, even with Crede not being back. He has to be traded this offseason, even though his value is diminished, to bring back another 3B, CF, or SP.
-There is no chance in hell we pursue CC.
-Swisher isn't going anywhere. We have him under control cheaply for the foreseeable future. He can't get any worse, so hopefully we can work with him to produce more contact.
-Believe it or not, BA might be good trade bait for us in the offseason if he isn't in our starting CF plans. It seems he has made strides and is constantly improving. A team might give us something for him. If it's not much, then he might be in the mix for the starting job or he'll have the 4th OF position again.
-With no 5th starter and with Jose injured, I'm assuming we acquire a SP either via trade (Fields, Konerko) or FA (Sheets?).

I love the offseason.

34 Inch Stick
09-15-2008, 11:48 AM
The White Sox still have to pay Contreras next season whether he comes back or not.

They probably have insurance on the contract that will be paid when he is unable to play.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2008, 12:05 PM
Just to comment on different things I've read in this thread:
-Jose Contreras might not pitch for us next year, but we're still paying for him (unless we have insurance on him to save us, but I haven't heard if we do or not). So him not pitching isn't freeing up any money.
-Thome's option will kick in/vest, so he'll be our DH and Dye will be our RF, no doubt about it.
-Fields is just a waste right now with us. He doesn't look ready to play offensively or defensively, even with Crede not being back. He has to be traded this offseason, even though his value is diminished, to bring back another 3B, CF, or SP.
-There is no chance in hell we pursue CC.
-Swisher isn't going anywhere. We have him under control cheaply for the foreseeable future. He can't get any worse, so hopefully we can work with him to produce more contact.
-Believe it or not, BA might be good trade bait for us in the offseason if he isn't in our starting CF plans. It seems he has made strides and is constantly improving. A team might give us something for him. If it's not much, then he might be in the mix for the starting job or he'll have the 4th OF position again.
-With no 5th starter and with Jose injured, I'm assuming we acquire a SP either via trade (Fields, Konerko) or FA (Sheets?).

I love the offseason.
Take this for what you will, but my dad is friends with people high up in the Reds organization and when we got Griffey the Reds asked for Anderson to be in the deal, Kenny said "No, he is going to be our CFer for next year." If that is the case, and with Swisher not likely going anywhere, that means Konerko is the odd man out.

Jurr
09-15-2008, 12:10 PM
Hopefully the offseason is a ways away, but there are a few things that give me a good vibe:

1.) Youth has already been served: Kenny has already begun infusing this team with young building blocks. Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, and Swisher are young players that provide you a solid building block for the foreseeable future.

2.) $$$$: It's easier to add talent (especially pitchers) when you have the ability to spend some cash. The Sox are now in that league where they are able to spend amongst the better teams in baseball. They can afford to make bigger splashes. Getting rid of big veteran contracts would help, but that may be pretty tough.

3.)Quick-draw Kenny: Williams is NOT afraid to pull the trigger on deals, and he can (hopefully) move some of these vets to free up money. Hopefully he deals some bats for some arms.

For the past handful of years, the Sox have been pretty exciting in offseasons, and that's awesome. It's exciting to see what kind of veteran talent can be blended with the youth on this roster.

102605
09-15-2008, 12:16 PM
They probably have insurance on the contract that will be paid when he is unable to play.

I heard that is very unlikely.

kitekrazy
09-15-2008, 12:17 PM
Then again there might be very few changes made and the Sox may be even better. The Sox don't have much to trade and it depends on how much Jerry is willing to spend.
Any bullpen is always a crapshoot. The same guys can be great one year and suck the next.

If there is one ting they need to do is sign Uribe again.

As is, they could be better next year if Thome and Konerko don't suck in the 1st half.

Gavin
09-15-2008, 12:47 PM
Then again there might be very few changes made and the Sox may be even better. The Sox don't have much to trade and it depends on how much Jerry is willing to spend.
Any bullpen is always a crapshoot. The same guys can be great one year and suck the next.

If there is one ting they need to do is sign Uribe again.

As is, they could be better next year if Thome and Konerko don't suck in the 1st half.

I never thought I'd see this written on WSI.

I agree, though. He's found his role.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 12:57 PM
Lot of ground to cover here.

1. Cabrera is gone, there is little to no chance of him returning. I've been told, for example, about the fact that he has refused to do any charity work this season of any kind for the Sox saying that it's because of his contract situation.

Now to be clear, I've been told he hasn't been an ass about this, he'll politely say no thank you when asked but it's odd how he thinks his contract situation has anything to do with the charity function of a MLB player. I assume that probably didn't set well with the higher up's.

2. Crede is now gone, there is zero chance of him returning, especially after being told that Kenny has been trying to find evidence of tampering to use against his agent. (If you missed it, I was told that both times when the Sox were in Anaheim, Scott Boras met with the Angels.)

3. Contreras is probably done. Everyone I've spoken with agree it's going to be very hard for him at whatever his age is, to come back. And in a best case scenario that won't be until the All Star Break. They are going to need a pitcher. They won't want to pay the going rate for one but that doesn't change the fact. I'm not comfortable with Richard, Broadway or Poreda in that spot next year, although the Sox may be. That would be a mistake in my opinion. And the Sox may have insurance on Contreras but that kicks in only if he doesn't pitch AT ALL in 2009.

4. Jim Thome will be back because his option clause will be kicking in. Griffey may be back, if he doesn't retire, at a greatly reduced price tag.

Regarding Figgins he is not a free agent apparently, but all signs were pointing towards the Angels trading him to the Sox as soon as they sign Crede. (bad back and all...) Figgins though has baggage. I was told he is not liked at all by his teammates because of his attitude. The only guy who still wants him around is Scioscia and that says something too. The Sox must feel Ozzie can keep him in line.

It'll be an interesting off season that's for sure.

Lip

Brewski
09-15-2008, 01:05 PM
Lot of ground to cover here.




2. Crede is now gone, there is zero chance of him returning, especially after being told that Kenny has been trying to find evidence of tampering to use against his agent. (If you missed it, I was told that both times when the Sox were in Anaheim, Scott Boras met with the Angels.)


It'll be an interesting off season that's for sure.

Lip

Curious. Why would the team have to be in LA for Boras to meet with the Angels? He doesn't travel with the team, does he? Isn't he West Coast based anyway? I assume that if Boras did contact the Angels, he knew the legalese words to use to be legally clear of tampering charges. Otherwise he'd be risking his very remunerative career. I wouldn't want a 3B with a lifetime bad back, but we were all wrong about Ordonez, weren't we?

Dammit, we coulda, woulda, shoulda got something for him before this season started. Dammit.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 01:07 PM
Trading Boone Logan would be ridiculous. KW is way too smart to listen to Ozzie on this one. Any way you slice it, he is still useful and is still young. Plenty of teams would value his arm. Homegrown relief is something we should be stockpiling, not giving away.

I like Rongey, but his assessment of Fields is way off base. He asks why Fields would honestly think he was going to start. Perhaps it was because Ozzie was consistently spouting off about how Fields was the starter entering camp. Trading him would also be foolish, as we'd be selling low for essentially no reason whatsoever.

nasox
09-15-2008, 01:10 PM
I wouldn't want a 3B with a lifetime bad back, but we were all wrong about Ordonez, weren't we?

Dammit, we coulda, woulda, shoulda got something for him before this season started. Dammit.

First, a bad back is far worse than a bad knee and is more unpredictable too.

Second, yeah, we shoulda sold on Crede but we didn't. I think it was because of 2005. If it wasn't for his heroics that year, then Crede would have been traded two years ago IMO.

Do we get draft picks if Crede goes elsewhere? And how many and what type do we get?

oeo
09-15-2008, 01:14 PM
Trading Boone Logan would be ridiculous. KW is way too smart to listen to Ozzie on this one. Any way you slice it, he is still useful and is still young. Plenty of teams would value his arm. Homegrown relief is something we should be stockpiling, not giving away.

I'm one of the biggest Boone supporters here, but I think it's more of an attitude problem than talent. I have no evidence of this other than his demeanor...just an opinion.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 01:15 PM
I'm one of the biggest Boone supporters here, but I think it's more of an attitude problem than talent.
Then we need to fix it. No use letting him walk and turn into a very valuable LOOGY. He's young -- give him time.

I'll take a team full of guys with attitude problems if they get the job done.

btrain929
09-15-2008, 01:16 PM
First, a bad back is far worse than a bad knee and is more unpredictable too.

Second, yeah, we shoulda sold on Crede but we didn't. I think it was because of 2005. If it wasn't for his heroics that year, then Crede would have been traded two years ago IMO.

Do we get draft picks if Crede goes elsewhere? And how many and what type do we get?

Nope. According to some estimated Elias rankings I saw a week ago online, Uribe is closer to getting us draft picks then Crede is (because he missed most of '07).

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 01:22 PM
Nope. According to some estimated Elias rankings I saw a week ago online, Uribe is closer to getting us draft picks then Crede is (because he missed most of '07).
Correct.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 01:23 PM
Unfortunately Logan isn't getting it done. That's the point and apparently his attitude which has been, I'm trying to find the correct word here...soft (for want of a better word..) is an issue as well.

The meltdown in Tampa in 2006 (and his own admission then that he lost it) and his meltdown this year (and Ozzie's comments about wanting "men" in a pennant race) tell me the organization, not just Ozzie are souring on him.

It may be a case of trying to get anything for him as opposed to perhaps simply releasing him and getting nothing...which is where they could be heading.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 01:26 PM
Brewski:

From what I was told Joe's agent then got information directly back to him which is why this was done when the Sox were in Anaheim.

Let's put it this way, this situation is so important apparently to Kenny that he actually asked certain members of the mainstream media that he trusted, that if they found anything that the Sox could use to build a tampering case, he (Kenny) would really appreciate it, if they turned it over to him.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 01:26 PM
Unfortunately Logan isn't getting it done. That's the point and apparently his attitude which has been, I'm trying to find the correct word here...soft (for want of a better word..) is an issue as well.

The meltdown in Tampa in 2006 (and his own admission then that he lost it) and his meltdown this year (and Ozzie's comments about wanting "men" in a pennant race) tell me the organization, not just Ozzie are souring on him.

It may be a case of trying to get anything for him as opposed to perhaps simply releasing him and getting nothing...which is where they could be heading.

Lip
Please. Lip, the guy is young. Why on earth would we release him for nothing? What is he costing us financially? Let him work it out in the system -- don't be foolish and let him walk.

khan
09-15-2008, 01:47 PM
Lot of ground to cover here.

1. Cabrera is gone,
Good. Thanks for your help this year, Orlando. Now go get signed elsewhere, so we can have the compensatory picks. [There's a reason why a player with his ability has been in so many teams over the years...]


2. Crede is now gone
Why would we want him back? Get it? Back? [crickets]

He's done, and his agent is a jackass. Thanks for the memories, Joe. You'll always be a White Sox to me.

3. Contreras is probably done.
Too bad for him and for the White Sox. I wish him well, but now Kenny should be looking for a serviceable vet at a reasonable price. A vet as the 5th starter. One who can eat innings and allow Richard, Broadway, and Poreda to figure a few more things out in the minors.

As an aside, this year has clearly illustrated that not only should a team have 5 reliable starters on the big club, but a long guy AND one or two players down in AAA that are ready at a moment's notice as well. The injuries to the pitching staff have laid thin the White SOX's depth in this regard. For my part, I'd prefer to see Richard and Poreda and Broadway start the year in Charlotte rather than in Chicago. I just don't think that any of these three are finished products [yet].

4. Jim Thome will be back because his option clause will be kicking in.
OK. This only delay's JD's move to DH a year. Thome's made a fool out of me with his resurgence after a weak 1st third of the season. Besides, once Thome's gone, we'll all go back to complaining about a lack of LH power in the lineup.

Griffey may be back, if he doesn't retire, at a greatly reduced price tag.
GOD no. He WAS a great player, but the ideal situation for him and for the White SOX is for a World Series to conclude the Sox's season and his career. The SOX also need to find someone who can catch the ball in CF.

Regarding Figgins he is not a free agent apparently, but all signs were pointing towards the Angels trading him to the Sox as soon as they sign Crede. (bad back and all...) Figgins though has baggage. I was told he is not liked at all by his teammates because of his attitude. The only guy who still wants him around is Scioscia and that says something too. The Sox must feel Ozzie can keep him in line.
Attitude and all, I'd give it a try, were I the SOX brass. He adds the dimension of speed that this team so desperately needs. He can also catch the ball better than Fields ever will. Until Beckham's up, Figgins will do nicely.

It'll be an interesting off season that's for sure.

Hopefully, the offseason doesn't arrive here until November, with all of us hungover from celebrating another Championship.

khan
09-15-2008, 01:49 PM
Unfortunately Logan isn't getting it done. That's the point and apparently his attitude which has been, I'm trying to find the correct word here...soft (for want of a better word..) is an issue as well.


Nothing quite like rushing a pitcher up from Single-A to the big club, no? Too bad the SOX don't believe in developing a player rather than rushing him to the bigs, and ruining his potential..

NLaloosh
09-15-2008, 02:03 PM
2009:

1. I HOPE Cabrera is gone/draft pick. I hope Griffey is NOT back/can't see it. Wise is more helpful. Once again, Anderson should be the starter. Crede - don't let the door hit you! I was a fan of Fields. Now, trade his ass. Logan ? What can it hurt to keep him? Start him in Charlotte if he doesn't get it.

2. They NEED a new 3B and 2B - agreed. How about Mora and Roberts for one year ? They're both signed thru 2009. Send them Fields +.

3. They need a starting pitcher. There are tons of FA's out there. Heck, I'd take Paul Byrd for the 5th spot.

4. Dye for DH ? I haven't heard that. I don't like it either. Thome is automatically back. I'd keep him. What can you get for him even IF he agreed to waive his no-trade with a $ 13 mil. contract ? Of course, we'd love to trade Paulie now but what can you get for him without paying his contract?

My suggestions for 2009:

Bullpen: As is.

Rotation: Sign a veteran FA. It won't be hard to find a decent one with a one or two year contract.

Outfield: Quentin, Anderson and Dye with Wise or equivalent is fine. Griffey looks nothing like the player he was. Bon Voyage.

Catcher: As is or upgrade backup.

Infield: This is the KEY. Alexi should definitely be the SS. 1B is Swisher or Swisher/Paulie if you can't unload him. I don't see the point in signing anyone long term here. Hudson ? Not worth the money he'll get. Misses too many games. Not a leadoff hitter. Pass. Beckam will be coming for one of these spots in 2-3 years.

I still say Brian Roberts makes a lot of sense for 2009 - maybe beyond. Could they get Mora for Fields ? Mora is Venezuelan-WOO HOO! Or, just trade him and somebody for Roberts and then get Casey Blake for a year. Cleveland probably re-signs Blake. The Sox could add 3 wins next year just by keeping Blake away from Cleveland.

By the way, keep Uribe as utility. Chone Figgins ? It's ok with me - if we don't give up much. I still don't like him very much as a regular.

In a perfect world:

1. I'd let the Angels sign Crede. Then,trade them Konerko for Figgins and a reliever.

2. Then, I'd trade Fields, Getz, Richard and Allen - save Poreda, Beckham and Danks for Roberts and Mora. Baltimore badly needs infielders.

3. Sign a FA starting pitcher.

Lineup:

Roberts
Mora
Quentin
Dye
Thome
Ramirez
A.J.
Swisher
Anderson

Figgins
Uribe
Wise
Hall

Start having Dye play some first base. 7 man bullpen. Sign some free agents from Cuba, Venezuela, Domincan, Korea, Japan. Need a little more starting pitching depth.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 02:05 PM
2009:

1. I HOPE Cabrera is gone/draft pick. I hope Griffey is NOT back/can't see it. Wise is more helpful. Once again, Anderson should be the starter. Crede - don't let the door hit you! I was a fan of Fields. Now, trade his ass. Logan ? What can it hurt to keep him? Start him in Charlotte if he doesn't get it.

2. They NEED a new 3B and 2B - agreed. How about Mora and Roberts for one year ? They're both signed thru 2009. Send them Fields +.

3. They need a starting pitcher. There are tons of FA's out there. Heck, I'd take Paul Byrd for the 5th spot.

4. Dye for DH ? I haven't heard that. I don't like it either. Thome is automatically back. I'd keep him. What can you get for him even IF he agreed to waive his no-trade with a $ 13 mil. contract ? Of course, we'd love to trade Paulie now but what can you get for him without paying his contract?

My suggestions for 2009:

Bullpen: As is.

Rotation: Sign a veteran FA. It won't be hard to find a decent one with a one or two year contract.

Outfield: Quentin, Anderson and Dye with Wise or equivalent is fine. Griffey looks nothing like the player he was. Bon Voyage.

Catcher: As is or upgrade backup.

Infield: This is the KEY. Alexi should definitely be the SS. 1B is Swisher or Swisher/Paulie if you can't unload him. I don't see the point in signing anyone long term here. Hudson ? Not worth the money he'll get. Misses too many games. Not a leadoff hitter. Pass. Beckam will be coming for one of these spots in 2-3 years.

I still say Brian Roberts makes a lot of sense for 2009 - maybe beyond. Could they get Mora for Fields ? Mora is Venezuelan-WOO HOO! Or, just trade him and somebody for Roberts and then get Casey Blake for a year. Cleveland probably re-signs Blake. The Sox could add 3 wins next year just by keeping Blake away from Cleveland.

By the way, keep Uribe as utility. Chone Figgins ? It's ok with me - if we don't give up much. I still don't like him very much as a regular.

In a perfect world:

1. I'd let the Angels sign Crede. Then,trade them Konerko for Figgins and a reliever.

2. Then, I'd trade Fields, Getz, Richard and Allen - save Poreda, Beckham and Danks for Roberts and Mora. Baltimore badly needs infielders.

3. Sign a FA starting pitcher.

Lineup:

Roberts
Mora
Quentin
Dye
Thome
Ramirez
A.J.
Swisher
Anderson

Figgins
Uribe
Wise
Hall

Start having Dye play some first base. 7 man bullpen. Sign some free agents from Cuba, Venezuela, Domincan, Korea, Japan. Need a little more starting pitching depth.
Are you ****ing kidding me? I wouldn't give up 2 of those guys let alone all four for Mora/Roberts. Getz is very useful and you'd have to be bat**** crazy at this point to trade Allen for anything but pitching.

FielderJones
09-15-2008, 02:19 PM
What is he costing us financially? Let him work it out in the system -- don't be foolish and let him walk.

It's not what he's costing us financially, it's what he's costing us in the won and loss columns.

I for one will not shed a tear if Boone Logan never throws another pitch in a White Sox uniform.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 02:23 PM
It's not what he's costing us financially, it's what he's costing us in the won and loss columns.

I for one will not shed a tear if Boone Logan never throws another pitch in a White Sox uniform.
Then send him down. The guy was integral to our first half success.

What is this hate for Boone Logan? Do we not realize how much quality left-handed relievers cost?

NLaloosh
09-15-2008, 02:25 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me? I wouldn't give up 2 of those guys let alone all four for Mora/Roberts. Getz is very useful and you'd have to be bat**** crazy at this point to trade Allen for anything but pitching.

Right. We can't give up a future utility infielder for a 3rd baseman that drives in 100 runs. Makes sense.

We're talking about getting All-Star caliber players at 2 positions where the Sox have no prospects and your hang up is Chris Getz and Brandon Allen ?

Who's crazy ? 10 years from now no one will even remember those 2 guys. Maybe, they'd remember the 2009 World Series Champions.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 02:28 PM
Right. We can't give up a future utility infielder for a 3rd baseman that drives in 100 runs. Makes sense.

We're talking about getting All-Star caliber players at 2 positions where the Sox have no prospects and your hang up is Chris Getz and Brandon Allen ?

Who's crazy ? 10 years from now no one will even remember those 2 guys. Maybe, they'd remember the 2009 World Series Champions.
What gives you the confidence Melvin Mora will be a quality three bagger next season?

Chris Getz didn't perform like a utility IF in AAA this season -- he should and will have the opportunity to win the starting job at 2b next season.

Allen was a monster all season and should be given the chance to supplant PK in 2010.

NLaloosh
09-15-2008, 02:29 PM
In case no one has noticed Baltimore has one of the highest scoring offenses in baseball this year led by Roberts, Mora, Markakis and Huff.

Both Roberts and Mora play solid defense. But, if you think Getz will knock in 100+ runs or score 100+ runs then.......

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 02:30 PM
In case no one has noticed Baltimore has one of the highest scoring offenses in baseball this year led by Roberts, Mora, Markakis and Huff.

Both Roberts and Mora play solid defense. But, if you think Getz will knock in 100+ runs or score 100+ runs then.......
I think Getz will be valuable for the White Sox. I think Richard will be valuable for the White Sox. I think Fields could be valuable to the White Sox. I know Allen will be valuable for the White Sox.

If we're using FOUR of our best trading chips, use them on guys better than Roberts/Mora.

Signing Hudson is an infinitely better idea than anything you've proposed.

NLaloosh
09-15-2008, 02:31 PM
What gives you the confidence Melvin Mora will be a quality three bagger next season?

Chris Getz didn't perform like a utility IF in AAA this season -- he should and will have the opportunity to win the starting job at 2b next season.

Allen was a monster all season and should be given the chance to supplant PK in 2010.

Getz has never projected to be anything more than a utility player. Allen has had one good season, not great, in AA and you think there's a better chance of them being stars next year then 2 players that have been stars for years ?

I'm done with this ridiculous discussion.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 02:34 PM
Getz has never projected to be anything more than a utility player. Allen has had one good season, not great, in AA and you think there's a better chance of them being stars next year then 2 players that have been stars for years ?

I'm done with this ridiculous discussion.
Mora is not a star. Hasn't been one in awhile. Roberts is good, but not much better than Hudson.

Getz can be a starting 2nd baseman -- that is no question in my mind. If he can be adequate defensively and offensively he's an asset.

Allen is very, very good. If you want to deny his line in A/AA this season, be my guest.

NLaloosh
09-15-2008, 02:58 PM
Mora is not a star. Hasn't been one in awhile. Roberts is good, but not much better than Hudson.

Getz can be a starting 2nd baseman -- that is no question in my mind. If he can be adequate defensively and offensively he's an asset.

Allen is very, very good. If you want to deny his line in A/AA this season, be my guest.

Grebeck, I've often agreed with you in the past. But, I'm going to remember that you didn't want these two star players that are still playing very well so that the Sox could keep two prospects that are likely to become Brad Eldred and Adam Kennedy.

BTW, Chris Carter is a much better prospect than Brandon Allen and he is not seen any sure thing.

mcfish
09-15-2008, 05:08 PM
3. Contreras is probably done. Everyone I've spoken with agree it's going to be very hard for him at whatever his age is, to come back. And in a best case scenario that won't be until the All Star Break. They are going to need a pitcher. They won't want to pay the going rate for one but that doesn't change the fact. I'm not comfortable with Richard, Broadway or Poreda in that spot next year, although the Sox may be. That would be a mistake in my opinion. And the Sox may have insurance on Contreras but that kicks in only if he doesn't pitch AT ALL in 2009.
Lip
If he's wanting to put in the work and try to come back, then can't we give him a shot in a bullpen role as an option to help bail us out of our annual second half bullpen collapse? The only reason I ever heard for not putting him in the bullpen before was that he made too much money to be there, but at this point isn't his salary meaningless?

Nope. According to some estimated Elias rankings I saw a week ago online, Uribe is closer to getting us draft picks then Crede is (because he missed most of '07).
Should have let him go last year. [EDIT: Crede, that is, not Uribe.]

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 05:36 PM
MC:

Well I guess it depends if he's insured or not. If he is then by putting him in the bullpen and if he appears in just one game, that could nullify the insurance policy and put the Sox on the hook for the ten million.

Pretty expensive for one appearance eh?

Honestly it would help if the Sox could let the mainstream media know if he is insured or not. It would clear up a lot of things.

Lip

russ99
09-15-2008, 05:56 PM
Trading Dye for pitching and keeping both Thome and Konerko would be a really bad idea.

One of the two (of Paul/Jim) has to go, and I know about Paul's NTC and Jim's option, but there are ways for GMs to get around that, especially if Jerry would eat some salary.

I doubt very much Griffey will be back, and as much as I'd love for Orlando to come back, he wont be - and the Sox will be the better for it with Alexei becoming a force at SS and payroll freed up for other holes.

There's no way Anderson is the long-term answer at CF, but until we get that answer (it may take a few years), BA and/or Swish will have to do.

I have no doubt that Kenny will get us another young pitcher that's much better than Richard or Broadway. Poreda's more suited to be a reliever and he knows how thin our minor league pitching is right now.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 05:59 PM
Grebeck, I've often agreed with you in the past. But, I'm going to remember that you didn't want these two star players that are still playing very well so that the Sox could keep two prospects that are likely to become Brad Eldred and Adam Kennedy.

BTW, Chris Carter is a much better prospect than Brandon Allen and he is not seen any sure thing.
Eh, not really. Going to have to hit higher than .259 to open anybody's eyes. He was a solid player this year but if you're a high level prospect at either 1B or DH you better rake.

turners56
09-15-2008, 05:59 PM
1. Replace Contreras with Broadway or Richard. We have 4 solid starters in MB GF, JV and JD. If one of Broadway or Richard falters use the other. You also have Contreras as a possibility to comeback during the season. Worst case pick up a starter in a trade during the season. I would feel fine with this approach.

2. Hudson and Figgins would be great at the top of the order. Probably Figgins at leadoff because he is more of a stealing threat. Both take a decent amount of walks and both have higher OBp's than Cabrera.

3. Personally I'd like to see BA in center field next year. I love his defense and I like the way he has swung the bat this year. I agree with DJ's assessment that he has turned the corner as a solid MLB player. With consistent playing time I think you would see some nice numbers from him.

4. The Dye/Thome/PK/ Griffey situation I don't know but somebody's got to go. If Thome's option is automatically excercised I am assuming he will be here as DH, so I don't see how you can move Dye to DH.

BA still can't hit the off-speed pitch. He can absolutely crush fastballs, but if the league adjusts to his minor success this year, he's gonna be meat in the near future.

Zisk77
09-15-2008, 06:07 PM
There is a reason Melvin Mora and aubrey Huff cleared waivers. Hell. we could have them both now if we wanted to pay for them.

Tragg
09-15-2008, 06:36 PM
By saying Cabrera is gone, does that mean that the Sox won't offer him arbitration?

btrain929
09-15-2008, 07:06 PM
By saying Cabrera is gone, does that mean that the Sox won't offer him arbitration?

Of course not. That means that'll we'll offer him arbitration and he'll decline it because he wants to hit the free agency market in order to: 1) play for a team NOT named the white sox, and 2) land a long term deal, not a 1 year deal. Once that happens, we get 2 draft picks. The only reason we wouldn't have offered him arbitration is if he put up an Andruw Jones '07-like year, where we'd be afraid he'd accept arbitration. That isn't the case, though.

mcfish
09-16-2008, 09:47 AM
MC:

Well I guess it depends if he's insured or not. If he is then by putting him in the bullpen and if he appears in just one game, that could nullify the insurance policy and put the Sox on the hook for the ten million.

Pretty expensive for one appearance eh?

Honestly it would help if the Sox could let the mainstream media know if he is insured or not. It would clear up a lot of things.

Lip
Of course if there's a good reason like that you don't bring him back unless you have to, but otherwise - put him in the pen when he comes back.

oeo
09-16-2008, 10:04 AM
Trading Dye for pitching and keeping both Thome and Konerko would be a really bad idea.

One of the two (of Paul/Jim) has to go, and I know about Paul's NTC and Jim's option, but there are ways for GMs to get around that, especially if Jerry would eat some salary.

Next year, you could have an entirely different opinion. For all the crap Konerko gets about being washed up, Dye is two years older than him.

This is why it's hard to discuss different scenarios here. You're never willing to sell high when the opportunity is there. If a guy is really playing poorly, you want him dealt without realizing that you're just not going to get much for him. On the other hand, we have a RF that should be DH'ing (but won't be able to), that will be 35 and coming off a great season, and we'll keep him? If Konerko's career is in trouble, Dye's is nearing the same territory.

Some said we should have sold high on Konerko a couple years ago. No one wanted to do that (and I think it was stupid then for a guy in his early 30's), and now we've got a 'washed up player' (I don't believe that, by the way). You have to give up some to get some, and we're not going to get much of anything for Konerko or Thome, for that matter, at his price.

I don't want to trade Dye, but it's looking to be a very good scenario for us. We need more range in the outfield, another starting pitcher, and some serious bullpen help. Trading Dye will open up an outfield spot, and get us a pitcher in return. Look at it like the Rowand trade a few years ago. We needed a left-handed power bat, and although we had to give up our starting centerfielder, it made our team better (and regardless of what people say, it did make us a better team). Or look at it like the Pods trade. We had to give up a great hitter in Carlos Lee, but we needed a leadoff hitter. You have to ask yourself: will trading Dye make us better? And depending on the return, yes, it definitely will.

Lundind1
09-16-2008, 01:28 PM
If we are trying to buy low and sell high here, I just don't see the logic in resigning Dye last year to a pretty large deal without the intention of keeping him.

Besides, I know this is a business, but Dye has expressed his desire to finish here.

russ99
09-16-2008, 01:35 PM
If we are trying to buy low and sell high here, I just don't see the logic in resigning Dye last year to a pretty large deal without the intention of keeping him.

Besides, I know this is a business, but Dye has expressed his desire to finish here.

Plus Dye is playing at a vastly higher overall level than Thome and Konerko.

True, Jim's had a pretty nice season, but discounting home runs, Dye's a much better hitter than either of our other main sluggers. His defense is no slouch either.

I'm not saying we should sell high on Paul or Jim, I'm saying we need to cut payroll to add the players we need to balance the lineup and still compete at a high level the next few years. If Carlos has no long-term issues to his wrist he effectively replaces one of Thome or Konerko at a massive savings, at least for 2 more years.

Lundind1
09-16-2008, 01:42 PM
I agree. I just wonder who we are going to move. I'd rather, and I hate to say this, see Thome ride into the sunset. He is a great player, a future HOF'er, a great clubhouse and community guy, but I can't see him being effective much longer. I also can't see getting rid of Paulie just yet.

This might just be one of those discussions that we need to understand that we can't have our cake and eat it too.

Zisk77
09-16-2008, 03:39 PM
For what its worth i think Paulie is far from washed up. I believe his main problem was health and then lack of confidence due to failure because of health. I do see DH as his primary position, however.

jabrch
09-16-2008, 03:45 PM
For what its worth i think Paulie is far from washed up. I believe his main problem was health and then lack of confidence due to failure because of health. I do see DH as his primary position, however.

Why? He is a decent 1B. He's not going to win a GG, but he's ok. He won't cost you many games with his glove when healthy.

I could see JD moving to DH before PK.

palehozenychicty
09-16-2008, 03:48 PM
Plus Dye is playing at a vastly higher overall level than Thome and Konerko.

True, Jim's had a pretty nice season, but discounting home runs, Dye's a much better hitter than either of our other main sluggers. His defense is no slouch either.

I'm not saying we should sell high on Paul or Jim, I'm saying we need to cut payroll to add the players we need to balance the lineup and still compete at a high level the next few years. If Carlos has no long-term issues to his wrist he effectively replaces one of Thome or Konerko at a massive savings, at least for 2 more years.


He's definitely regressed, though. He may have one more year left in the outfield, and that's it.

Noneck
09-16-2008, 03:51 PM
For what its worth i think Paulie is far from washed up. I believe his main problem was health and then lack of confidence due to failure because of health. I do see DH as his primary position, however.
It's all about his health. Thome was decent at 1B until his body broke down. If PK is well he should play 1B somewhere.

jabrch
09-16-2008, 03:52 PM
I'm not saying we should sell high on Paul or Jim,

I would sell HIGH on either. I would sell LOW on neither.

Noneck
09-16-2008, 04:10 PM
I'm not saying we should sell high on Paul or Jim.
The window of opportunity to do that is long gone, selling low will be the only choice available.

Lundind1
09-16-2008, 04:15 PM
I don't really think that we should be selling. These guys are the heart of a pretty powerful lineup.

Dye can hit to all fields and his defense is no issue.

Thome can still hit the ball well as he has demonstrated in the last 2 months or so.

Konerko still is a good 1B glove man, and while he will not win a gold glove anytime soon, he should still be considered very serviceable (not to sound like he is average or anything, he is great at 1B. Also Paul without injury is a force to be dealt with in the middle of the lineup and should stay on this team for a few more year. His leadership with the young players is also something that should not be overlooked.