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Lip Man 1
09-14-2008, 11:21 PM
Considering everything that happened in 2007…and for that matter considering everything that has happened this season, this deserves to be noted and commented on.

With these wins, the White Sox have guaranteed themselves a “winning” season in 2008.

That means even if they don’t win another game from here on out, they will have made an eleven game improvement over 2007.

Further the White Sox stayed relevant in the market, especially in the wake of what the Cubs have accomplished so far this season. That was very important for the long term health of this franchise.

Everyone…from the front office, to the coaches, to the players, deserves congratulations for this accomplishment.

Of course everyone hopes this is just the beginning of what they can do.

Historically this is the 7th “winning” season this decade, to go along with 00, 01, 03, 04, 05 and 06.

That means this is the most successful decade, under these specific parameters, since the 1960’s and the end of the “golden age” of White Sox baseball. That decade saw the Sox have eight “winning” seasons from 1960 through 1967 inclusive. (On top of the nine winning seasons in the 1950’s – from 1951 through 1959 inclusive. 17 straight winning seasons, the 3rd most in MLB history.)

Again well done.

Lip

cards press box
09-14-2008, 11:26 PM
Good observation, Lip. Over the years, I have never thought that the Sox have gotten enough credit for this. If one compares the number of winning seasons that the Sox have has since the end of WWII to the number of Cub winning seasons in the same time period, the disparity is staggering.

You would never know it from the Chicago media outlets, particularly the Cubs' very own "Pravda" -- WGN.

chisoxmike
09-14-2008, 11:27 PM
I was one of the people on here that thought that this Sox team was destined for a third place finish.

There's still a lot more work to be done, but I have been pleased with this team. Now, if they don't make the playoffs, I'll still consider this season a failure.

But its nice to see the Sox turn around a disastrous season within a year.


Go SOX!

JB98
09-14-2008, 11:36 PM
I would like to see the White Sox reach the 90-win plateau for the third time in four seasons. If they do, I think it will result in a division championship.

chisoxfanatic
09-14-2008, 11:42 PM
The best thing that could result of this regular season is for them to clinch this division in the Baggie Dome, which is quite possible.

I never thought we'd get the contributions we have from our bench. BA's had some key moments, as has Wise and Hall.

The bullpen has shown that they CAN be effective. They just need to get back to how they were pitching in the first half for the final push and beyond.

The starting rotation started off kinda shaky; but, they're all coming to form at this time, which is great for October.

johnnyg83
09-14-2008, 11:52 PM
After being picked by the "experts" for 4th and 3rd at best ... it's been an exciting roller coaster season. The emergence of young players like Danks, Gavin, TCQ and Alexei have me excited for the future ... and at this point last year they were question marks at best ... at best.

If JT, PK and JD can KGJ can get a little bit hot all together for the next 4 weeks ... and we can get any consistency out of the bullpen outside Thornton and Bobby ... who knows. Anything can happen.

captain54
09-15-2008, 12:21 AM
I'm sorry, but a $120 million dollar club, in the same year that Cleveland and Detroit wet the bed, and Minnesota loses Tori Hunter and Santana to free agency, a "winning season" is way below what Sox fans should expect.

johnnyg83
09-15-2008, 12:35 AM
I knew someone would say, "But I'm not happy with 82 wins." Nature of the boards I guess. His point was not, "OK, you can stop now." It's congrats on being in 1st place on Sept. 15th when everyone picked you for mid to bottom of the pack.

When you won 72 games the year before and everyone said you were nuts for counting on Danks ... and trading Garland ... and you've suffered injuries to your No. 3 starter, your MVP LF, your everyday 3b and your stud setup guy.

Do you think anyone on this board is satisfied with a winning season?

That's just silliness. I don't understand some people, jesus.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 12:54 AM
Captain 54:

I'm sorry too but the White Sox DO NOT have a 120 million ballclub.

(Again) the AP figures released earlier this season ARE COMPLETELY WRONG.

According to Mark Gonzales (and others) the AP took the AVERAGE salary of a contract and did NOT factor in that some deals are front loaded and some are back loaded.

Example if a player has a four year, 40 million dollar deal. The AP said 'fine...he makes 10 million per season.' In fact, said player may make six million in the first year of it and 14 million in the final year.

Gonzales told me in an e-mail he knew of at least four examples in the AP story on the Sox that were wrong in terms of the salaries.

A better guess he said, was around 109 million.

I don't know if that includes the money being paid to the Sox on the Cabrera and Thome deals from the Angels and Phillies respectively so the actual money the Sox are shelling out could even be less then that 109 million figure.

Lip

Daver
09-15-2008, 01:04 AM
Captain 54:

I'm sorry too but the White Sox DO NOT have a 120 million ballclub.

(Again) the AP figures released earlier this season ARE COMPLETELY WRONG.

According to Mark Gonzales (and others) the AP took the AVERAGE salary of a contract and did NOT factor in that some deals are front loaded and some are back loaded.

Example if a player has a four year, 40 million dollar deal. The AP said 'fine...he makes 10 million per season.' In fact, said player may make six million in the first year of it and 14 million in the final year.

Gonzales told me in an e-mail he knew of at least four examples in the AP story on the Sox that were wrong in terms of the salaries.

A better guess he said, was around 109 million.

I don't know if that includes the money being paid to the Sox on the Cabrera and Thome deals from the Angels and Phillies respectively so the actual money the Sox are shelling out could even be less then that 109 million figure.

Lip

No one will ever know the actual payroll of an MLB team, for very obvious reasons, I find it amusing as hell when people, including the press, refer to payroll numbers that they are making assumptions on.

captain54
09-15-2008, 01:07 AM
I knew someone would say, "But I'm not happy with 82 wins." Nature of the boards I guess. His point was not, "OK, you can stop now." It's congrats on being in 1st place on Sept. 15th when everyone picked you for mid to bottom of the pack.

When you won 72 games the year before and everyone said you were nuts for counting on Danks ... and trading Garland ... and you've suffered injuries to your No. 3 starter, your MVP LF, your everyday 3b and your stud setup guy.

Do you think anyone on this board is satisfied with a winning season?

That's just silliness. I don't understand some people, jesus.

First of all, as far as losing Garland, I sure wasn't sweating that one out.

You can spin it anyway you want, but the bottom line is, the Sox won
a World Series in 2005, have the same nucleus, maybe even better in a
few respects, have not made the playoffs two years in a row and are stuggling to make in the third year.

As far as injuries, please, take a look at where Boston is with worse injuries

I just don't really get the point of the thread. The way I see it, we missed the opportunity to take this division and stuff it in our back pockets. Who
knows when the opportunity will come along again when Detroit and Cleveland both stumble and fall, and Minnesota plays just good enough to hang in there.

captain54
09-15-2008, 01:09 AM
No one will ever know the actual payroll of an MLB team, for very obvious reasons, I find it amusing as hell when people, including the press, refer to payroll numbers that they are making assumptions on.

Let's put it this way, it's one of the top 5 payrolls in baseball..

Irishsoxfan
09-15-2008, 01:33 AM
If 100+ million dollary salaries guaranteed you anything - why play the games? Give the west to seattle, the east to yankees, the central to detroit .. oh wait none of them are gonna make it to post season play. Detroit and cleveland wetting their pants - not our problem. I like winning baseball so congratulations to the Sox for providing it on a consistent basis.

DSpivack
09-15-2008, 01:39 AM
Let's put it this way, it's one of the top 5 payrolls in baseball..

Isn't that even debatable? There are a lot of clubs with payrolls north of $100-million these days.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 08:54 AM
As far as injuries, please, take a look at where Boston is with worse injuries

With a payroll 2X+ as large as ours, and spending 10X as much as we do on the draft and on organizational development...

*****.

Want to play that game? Here - we are way ahead of the Yankees....


That's bull****.

If you are trying to paint this season as anything other than a tremendous success so far, that's your choice. I find that cowardly and unrealistic. This team has exceeded everyone's expectations. I'm thrilled to death to be in first place with about 2 weeks to go.

johnnyg83
09-15-2008, 09:15 AM
And those "amazing" Red Sox are just 4.5 games ahead of us at double the payroll. Which comes to about $20+ million spent per game ahead.

spawn
09-15-2008, 09:23 AM
With a payroll 2X+ as large as ours, and spending 10X as much as we do on the draft and on organizational development...

*****.

Want to play that game? Here - we are way ahead of the Yankees....


That's bull****.

If you are trying to paint this season as anything other than a tremendous success so far, that's your choice. I find that cowardly and unrealistic. This team has exceeded everyone's expectations. I'm thrilled to death to be in first place with about 2 weeks to go.
Word.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 09:25 AM
Isn't that even debatable? There are a lot of clubs with payrolls north of $100-million these days.


It all depends on how you do accounting... If I cared to waste my time, I would be able to use data that would show that NYY, NYM, BOS, CHC, LAA, LAD and Seattle all have larger payrolls than we do.

The bottom line is that nobody believes that spending more money than your division opponents guarantees you more wins. It sure gives you a better chance - and we have parlayed it into a 1.5 game lead with about 2 weeks to go. If that's not good enough for some of our fans, that's their choice.

whitesox901
09-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Considering everything that happened in 2007…and for that matter considering everything that has happened this season, this deserves to be noted and commented on.

With these wins, the White Sox have guaranteed themselves a “winning” season in 2008.

That means even if they don’t win another game from here on out, they will have made an eleven game improvement over 2007.

Further the White Sox stayed relevant in the market, especially in the wake of what the Cubs have accomplished so far this season. That was very important for the long term health of this franchise.

Everyone…from the front office, to the coaches, to the players, deserves congratulations for this accomplishment.

Of course everyone hopes this is just the beginning of what they can do.

Historically this is the 7th “winning” season this decade, to go along with 00, 01, 03, 04, 05 and 06.

That means this is the most successful decade, under these specific parameters, since the 1960’s and the end of the “golden age” of White Sox baseball. That decade saw the Sox have eight “winning” seasons from 1960 through 1967 inclusive. (On top of the nine winning seasons in the 1950’s – from 1951 through 1959 inclusive. 17 straight winning seasons, the 3rd most in MLB history.)

Again well done.

Lip

All very good points Lip, another reason this season is so special for me is that this is my first year I can manage to go to more than one Sox game over a three year span, its been a helluva season!

guillensdisciple
09-15-2008, 10:07 AM
I was thinking about this for a while, the Sox have had one Chamionship in the past 8 years, a myriad of winning seasons, and great hitters produced. Whether we like it or not the franchise is one of the most successful in the majors.

1. Red Sox
2. Yankees
3. Cardinals
4. Angels
5. Atlanta
6. White Sox


That is my list of successful franchises since the beginning of the century.

hawkjt
09-15-2008, 10:09 AM
The ultimate fate of the season hangs in the balance but with two weeks to go, it has been a fun season.
I was very discouraged coming into the season. I figured the Sox for 3rd at best behind the Tribe and tigers.
While it has been frustrating at times...early season hitting woes,mid-season bullpen woes and now late season bullpen meltdown, but overall, never dull.
Our starting rotation has exceeded my wildest hopes,really, considering that Jose went down.
The bullpen rebounded well the first half,then liney got hurt and is now treading water...but I still believe they can get out of their slump also.
The hitting started off as 07 redux but has bounced back since june nicely.
Fans have come out in good numbers.
Mother Nature has been a bit tough on the Sox but no hurricanes so cannot be too unhappy.

Again, the Sox are emeshed in a throwback pennant race with one team advancing,one team going home, which makes it hard to have perspective but no matter how the next two weeks play out...it has been a good season. Not great,unless the win the division. But good?, Yes. Go Sox.

voodoochile
09-15-2008, 10:11 AM
I'm sorry, but a $120 million dollar club, in the same year that Cleveland and Detroit wet the bed, and Minnesota loses Tori Hunter and Santana to free agency, a "winning season" is way below what Sox fans should expect.

LOL...

Dude, lighten up...

Oh and I think celebrating the little milestones along the way to the playoffs is a good thing to do.

In the Pennant race - check

Winning season - check

Playoffs - ?

Pennant - ?

WS Champs - ?

It's okay to smile and enjoy the journey before the destination is reached.

Oh and based on what people around here were expecting, being where we are is pretty freaking amazing...

khan
09-15-2008, 10:34 AM
1. Red Sox
2. Yankees
3. Cardinals
4. Angels
5. Atlanta
6. White Sox


That is my list of successful franchises since the beginning of the century.

The Red Sawks, Cardinals, and Yankees have been in 2 World Series this century.

The Angels and White Sox have been in 1 apiece.

Atlanta has had no World Series appearances in the 21st century.


Based on this, I'd put the SOX no lower than 4th on your list.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 10:38 AM
The Red Sawks, Cardinals, and Yankees have been in 2 World Series this century.

The Angels and White Sox have been in 1 apiece.

Atlanta has had no World Series appearances in the 21st century.


Based on this, I'd put the SOX no lower than 4th on your list.

There is more to sucess than just the end result of the last game of the season. WS wins are great - I want more. But the more winning seasons, 90 win seasons, post season trips, etc. we have, the better positioned we will be for winning the WS. If you just evaluate success just based the single criteria on who won the last game of the season, then 31 teams will fail each year. I don't think that's reasonable.

asindc
09-15-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm sorry, but a $120 million dollar club, in the same year that Cleveland and Detroit wet the bed, and Minnesota loses Tori Hunter and Santana to free agency, a "winning season" is way below what Sox fans should expect.

Mr. Captain54, with all due respect, your post is borderline trolling. Part of the reason Cleveland and Detroit are wetting the bed this season is that the Sox have been kicking their asses all season long. As far as Minny goes, the question is not why we don't have a bigger lead against them, it's how they have managed to hang with the Sox given what they have to work with.

Before the season started, I predicted 88-92 victories for the Sox, and a wild card berth if they reached 92. Well, I didn't expect Cleveland to play like they have (again, the Sox had a lot to do with that), but I also didn't think Detroit had enough pitching to be better than an 84-85 victory team. Speaking of payrolls, who would you rather be now: A Sox fan or a Tiger fan?

Enjoy the journey. This is a good season, after all.:smile:

khan
09-15-2008, 11:09 AM
There is more to sucess than just the end result of the last game of the season. WS wins are great - I want more. But the more winning seasons, 90 win seasons, post season trips, etc. we have, the better positioned we will be for winning the WS. If you just evaluate success just based the single criteria on who won the last game of the season, then 31 teams will fail each year. I don't think that's reasonable.

Even under your added criteria [winning seasons, 90+ win seasons, and post season trips], I would still place our SOX no lower than 4th-most successful in the 21st Century.

But for clarity [in order]: I DO value WS wins above all else, then WS appearances, then post season appearances, then winning seasons to evaluate success.

Everything else is BS.

gna2112
09-15-2008, 11:55 AM
I don't post very often, I enjoy reading everybody's posts and get a kick out of all the negativity thats written and directed at our beloved White Sox. I live in central Florida, so I don't get to see what's being said or written about the Sox on a daily basis. I do read all i can about them on-line which keeps me somewhat in the loop.

Now with that being said, how can anybody be upset about the season we are having. We are right in the middle of a pennant race in the middle of September, and the best of all we are leading that race. What more can we want as sox fans, clinch the division a week or so ago, then coast into the post season. I would rather fight it out till the end, staying sharp, keeping those competitive juices flowing till the last out of the season. Then start the post season on a roll, with the excitement and sense of accomplishment(winning the division) we will be ready to kick some ass in the post season. If memory serves me correct, this is how our 05 season went, we had a big lead, then had to fight till the last week to clinch the division.

Finally, no matter what happens this year, it has been a great season since not many people expected us to contend. So to all the naysayers, lighten up and be happy that it's the middle of Sept. and we are in 1st place and hopefully on our way to the post season.

David

jcw218
09-15-2008, 01:45 PM
First of all, as far as losing Garland, I sure wasn't sweating that one out.

Garland is what he is, an innings eater who couold give you about 200 - 220 innings with 15-20 wins. He'd have his ups and downs but a solid pitcher. I'd like to have him with Contreras done.

You can spin it anyway you want, but the bottom line is, the Sox won a World Series in 2005, have the same nucleus, maybe even better in a few respects, have not made the playoffs two years in a row and are stuggling to make in the third year.

The Sox have 8 players who went to the world series in 2005 on this years roster. Those eight are Buehrle, Contreras, Jenks, Dye, Konerko, Uribe, Crede and Pierzynski. Yes there were more from 05 on the roster in 06 and on paper the 06 team was better, but that's why you play the games. The bullpen got career years from Cotts and Politte in 05 and they were not as effective in 06 and the key to the 05 run, starting pitching, was not as effective either. The team won 90 games and did not makie it to the playoffs, that's true. Still 06 was a successful season in my opinion. 2007 was just aweful, the bullpen was very mediocre, the offense suffered key injeries to numerous players, players were used out of position, etc.

As far as injuries, please, take a look at where Boston is with worse injuries

Injuries are a part of baseball. Every team has to deal with injuries. Some teams have the money to better deal with injuries than others. Better example Tampa Bay. I'd say losing Longoria and Crawford are tougher injuris than Boston losing Drew and Lugo.

I just don't really get the point of the thread. The way I see it, we missed the opportunity to take this division and stuff it in our back pockets. Who knows when the opportunity will come along again when Detroit and Cleveland both stumble and fall, and Minnesota plays just good enough to hang in there.

The point is that in the opinion of the original poster, this season has been a success. Yes we missed the opportunity to run away with this division. Still it's September 15th and were 1.5 games up in first in a pennant race with two weeks left to play. I'll take this to the alternative any day.I'll be disappointed if the Sox do not make the playoffs, sure. But to call this season anything but a success when compared to last season is silly.

Noneck
09-15-2008, 02:08 PM
A "winning" season does not mean much to me unless the team competes during the year to get to and advance in the post season. The longer the team competes to this, shows me how successful a season it is. Being over .500 means nothing to me, Look at Toronto this year.

kitekrazy
09-15-2008, 03:05 PM
I don't really care. I would still watch the Sox even if they are in 3rd place.

I would like to see baseball go to a salary cap like the NBA, NFL. It would force teams to focus on the minor league systems and not always favor the large market cities.

Let's get rid of guaranteed contracts as well. There's nothing like an unproductive multi millionaire holding a team hostage.

PatK
09-15-2008, 03:38 PM
I don't really care. I would still watch the Sox even if they are in 3rd place.

I would like to see baseball go to a salary cap like the NBA, NFL. It would force teams to focus on the minor league systems and not always favor the large market cities.

Let's get rid of guaranteed contracts as well. There's nothing like an unproductive multi millionaire holding a team hostage.


I agree, but there is no way in Hell I can see it happening.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 04:41 PM
As my friend Daver would say (and I agree with him) 'a salary cap simply guarantees an owner's profit margin.'

No thank you. I don't trust half of these guys to have any incentive to actually try to win especially if a cap were in place.

Some of these small market franchises are and have been generating tremendous profits because of revenue sharing and their cut of licencing agreements, yet they still refuse to put that money back on to the field.

The famous story from a few years ago where Carl Barger the CEO of the Reds told both Cincinnati newspapers (and they printed it) that he ordered then G.M. Jim Bowden to cut payroll because with the new Great American Ballpark opening up, the Reds would draw so many fans they wouldn't be getting as much revenue sharing money is a prime example of this.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 04:45 PM
Noneck:

So are you saying you see no difference between winning 76 games and 83?

I do...it's called a losing season as opposed to a winning one. At least something you can take some pride in.

What the Sox have accomplished this decade without having the benefit of unlimited money a la the Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs is something worth noting no?

I wonder how many other franchise can claim seven winning seasons in nine years this decade?

Yankees, Red Sox...who else? Angels? Cardinals? maybe Houston?

Lip

Noneck
09-15-2008, 05:30 PM
Noneck:

So are you saying you see no difference between winning 76 games and 83?

I do...it's called a losing season as opposed to a winning one. At least something you can take some pride in.

What the Sox have accomplished this decade without having the benefit of unlimited money a la the Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs is something worth noting no?

I wonder how many other franchise can claim seven winning seasons in nine years this decade?

Yankees, Red Sox...who else? Angels? Cardinals? maybe Houston?

Lip

Lip,

Its an accomplishment but my point from a fan standpoint is having interest in the club as far as possible throughout the year. A +.500 year could mean really no post season interest throughout the year as is the case with Toronto. I would rather have been a Dback fan this year than a Blue Jay fan.

SluggerJim
09-15-2008, 05:39 PM
I have to admit, in spring training I was thinking 70-92, at best.

Then after the early season road trip up to Toronto, I was thinking that my prediction may have been overly optimistic.

But 'lo and behold, this has been a fun (albeit at times, gut-wrenching) season to watch.

And my regular-season expectations have been exceeded.

That said, I'm really not satisfied with just a winning record at this point. A nice October run is now the benchmark in my mind.

For me, it's a one-game at a time. Road trips have been messing with my mind all season, and here we go into NYC, playing a team with nothing to win, but has something to prove.

Still, overall the regular season has been more than a pleasant surprise.

Regards,

SJ

captain54
09-15-2008, 06:27 PM
Mr. Captain54, with all due respect, your post is borderline trolling. Part of the reason Cleveland and Detroit are wetting the bed this season is that the Sox have been kicking their asses all season long. As far as Minny goes, the question is not why we don't have a bigger lead against them, it's how they have managed to hang with the Sox given what they have to work with.

Before the season started, I predicted 88-92 victories for the Sox, and a wild card berth if they reached 92. Well, I didn't expect Cleveland to play like they have (again, the Sox had a lot to do with that), but I also didn't think Detroit had enough pitching to be better than an 84-85 victory team. Speaking of payrolls, who would you rather be now: A Sox fan or a Tiger fan?

Enjoy the journey. This is a good season, after all.:smile:

I've been a member of the board considerably longer than you have, one of the original posters, by the way....You sure you know what a troll is?

I'm all for getting on board and raising a glass to a winning season after a 72-90 year, but if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, it will be a hollow celebration.

If I dug around the post archives, I could find the same glass half full vs. glass half empty argument a million times.

sullythered
09-15-2008, 06:43 PM
Every season, what I realistically ask for is to still be interested in September. I am, so good job guys.