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View Full Version : Does Swisher Deserve Playing Time When PK Comes Back?


TomBradley72
09-12-2008, 08:51 AM
After all the Paulie bashing this year when he was slumping (as well as Thome, Alexei, etc.) is Swisher receiving the benefit of a double standard? His mediocre 1st half has led to a less than mediocre 2nd half:


Post All Star Break:
Batting Average: .199 (16th on team)
Batting Average Last 30 Days: .173 (14th on team)
OBP: .305 (9th on team)
OBP Last 30 Days: .253 (12th on team)
Strike Outs: 50 (#1 on team, right next to Thome, Dye is 3rd w/30)
Season Splits:
.211 BA vs. LHs (15th on team)
.230 w/RISP (15th on team)
.227 Late Innings/Close Games (11th on team)
Based on his track record and our number of injuries you might think it's automatic that he's in the line up every night. Based on his horse**** play over the past few months (exluding a few big hits), I'm not so sure.

kobo
09-12-2008, 09:11 AM
He def. deserves to be benched for a game or 2. Aside from the game against the Angels on Saturday, he hasn't done much to help the club and looks lost at the plate right now. I like the guy, but he's not helping the team right now.

btrain929
09-12-2008, 09:24 AM
But, but remember that extra innings game vs Detroit at home?

veeter
09-12-2008, 10:10 AM
It seems like on every team there's always a guy, that no matter how ****ty he plays, never gets benched. I don't understand their unconditional love for him. He needs time off.

soxfan43
09-12-2008, 10:22 AM
I've been getting pretty fed up with him lately, but these stats show he's way worse than I thought. I know Gio and Sweeney haven't torn it up or anything, but I think we got hosed in this deal. And doesn't nick have a bunch of years left on his contract?

Lukin13
09-12-2008, 10:35 AM
Swisher's problem is that he just "guesses" at the plate. And guessing is fine if you will take a "defensive" swing with two strikes, but Swish continues to swing for the fences even with two strikes against him.

HartmanSox
09-12-2008, 10:39 AM
He has had a knack for striking out, whether it be looking or swinging. It's more than just a slump.

Foulke You
09-12-2008, 11:01 AM
Swish had a nice hot streak in June and July and a mini-streak in August and then has cooled off to icy proportions. He really does need a day off but Ozzie's hands are tied right now with all the injuries. I was surprised to see that split against LHP is so bad for him. During this slump of his, it seems like the only time he has been getting hits is when he bats right handed. I don't mind having Swisher in the lineup but I think he needs to bat 8th or 9th right now until he heats up again. I'm wondering if he has altered his swing on 2 strikes because he is in a more HR friendly ballpark? He is behind his career norms for batting avg., hits, and doubles. However, he is on pace to have his 2nd highest HR total. As far as the strikeouts though, that is part of the package with him. You are going to get 100 walks but also 120+ strikeouts.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/swishni01.shtml

JackK
09-12-2008, 11:06 AM
The real question is, is he a better overall player than Anderson, Wise or Owens? I think the answer is yes.

Also, why isnt griffey ever in LF? I dont understand that, he just doesnt have the speed he did in 98, and i noticed he wont dive for a ball unless its a critical situation in a game. Yesterday, there were two no out singles he might have got with a dive.

all*star quentin
09-12-2008, 11:09 AM
Adding last night's bad calls from the 1st base ump.:scratch:

kittle42
09-12-2008, 11:12 AM
Adding last night's bad calls from the 1st base ump.:scratch:

As Farmer and Stone pointed out, if Swisher would just reach and stretch for balls like a normal 1B instead of doing that stupid back up off the bag move, he'd have gotten at least one of those calls.

"I can't stand it."

Foulke You
09-12-2008, 12:02 PM
As Farmer and Stone pointed out, if Swisher would just reach and stretch for balls like a normal 1B instead of doing that stupid back up off the bag move, he'd have gotten at least one of those calls.

"I can't stand it."
I hate that straddle the base move he does. It definitely has cost him several calls there this year. I'm not sure why he does it. I've never seen a White Sox 1B do that before.

hi im skot
09-12-2008, 12:06 PM
Swisher's bobblehead doesn't deserve time on my desk at this point.

MushMouth
09-12-2008, 12:07 PM
I hate that straddle the base move he does. It definitely has cost him several calls there this year. I'm not sure why he does it. I've never seen a White Sox 1B do that before.

For some reason, Hawk thinks its a great move. No idea why, seems like a show of awkwardness/inexperience at 1b to me.

khan
09-12-2008, 12:07 PM
The real question is, is he a better overall player than Anderson, Wise or Owens? I think the answer is yes.

I'd disagree. Separate the player(s) in question RIGHT NOW from the player's career. And separate the player who is more famous from the player(s) who are performing the best RIGHT NOW. Being famous won't win us jack in the last 3 weeks of the season. We need results, not another jackass on the TV and on the radio.

All three of these guys HAVE to be hitting for average better than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. All three are better fielders than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. All three can run better than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. I'm guessing that Anderson has a better arm than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac, and possibly Owens as well.

The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac might be a switch-hitter in theory, but is only a lefty in actuality. [His RH numbers suck ass.] The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac has more power than Anderson, Owens, and Wise, but the club needs more timely hitting and OBP, not another slugger. I wish that The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac would shut his piehole, skip a few interviews, and work on his game instead.

But it doesn't matter. Ozzie hates Anderson, even though Anderson is a better fielder and runner and hitter [RIGHT NOW] than The Rich Man's Rob Mackiowiac.

Wise and Owens are seen only as pinch runners, IMHO, by Ozzie.


Also, why isnt griffey ever in LF?
Your guess is as good as mine. I'm thinking that Ozzie and Kenny don't value the ability to catch the ball all that much.

PorkChopExpress
09-12-2008, 12:12 PM
Also, why isnt griffey ever in LF? I dont understand that, he just doesnt have the speed he did in 98, and i noticed he wont dive for a ball unless its a critical situation in a game. Yesterday, there were two no out singles he might have got with a dive.

I thought I heard Ozzie say he asked Griffey where he would be more comfortable, and Griffey said CF.

WhiteSoxBlog
09-12-2008, 12:43 PM
There are about 1,000 articles about TCQ talking about "no one thought he would get playing time," that it was Carlos, Anderson, Owens fighting for a sport on the field. No one ever mentioned ANYTHING about Swish's job being on the line. He was a done deal. I think this is definitely a situation where you interchange swish and PK and you have Ozzie saying, "who am I goin to put in CF (or LF)? Brian? Hellooo!" You picked those guys for their job (wether it's CF or 1B) for a reason and don't expect them to disappoint. You paid your salary and you're stuck with them

slavko
09-12-2008, 12:51 PM
I'd disagree. Separate the player(s) in question RIGHT NOW from the player's career. And separate the player who is more famous from the player(s) who are performing the best RIGHT NOW. Being famous won't win us jack in the last 3 weeks of the season. We need results, not another jackass on the TV and on the radio.

All three of these guys HAVE to be hitting for average better than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. All three are better fielders than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. All three can run better than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac. I'm guessing that Anderson has a better arm than The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac, and possibly Owens as well.

The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac might be a switch-hitter in theory, but is only a lefty in actuality. [His RH numbers suck ass.] The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac has more power than Anderson, Owens, and Wise, but the club needs more timely hitting and OBP, not another slugger. I wish that The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac would shut his piehole, skip a few interviews, and work on his game instead.

But it doesn't matter. Ozzie hates Anderson, even though Anderson is a better fielder and runner and hitter [RIGHT NOW] than The Rich Man's Rob Mackiowiac.

Wise and Owens are seen only as pinch runners, IMHO, by Ozzie.



Your guess is as good as mine. I'm thinking that Ozzie and Kenny don't value the ability to catch the ball all that much.

Just for the sake of accuracy, Owens has the worst throwing arm I've ever seen on a White Sox outfielder. Think:If KW made a trade for Swisher and Ozzie signed off on it, do you guess they're married to the idea of using him even if it hurts the team?

soulfly
09-12-2008, 01:09 PM
If Konerko doesn't go down with the knee a few games back, does anyone think Swisher would not have been in the lineup somehow most of these games anyways? Of course Ozzie still would have let him play. It's sad. We're trying to win a division, and yet for some reason we have Mr. strike out in late inning situation Swisher giving away outs.

Hopefully Paulie comes back and hits the way he was hitting prior to the injury. Then hopefully Swisher doesn't go back to center, or left. Hopefully instead he goes to the bench for 4 or 5 games. Now isn't the time to let him figure out how to guess what pitch is coming next. We need every game we can get at this point.

I miss Ross Gload.

JackK
09-12-2008, 01:26 PM
I'd disagree. Separate the player(s) in question RIGHT NOW from the player's career. And separate the player who is more famous from the player(s) who are performing the best RIGHT NOW. Being famous won't win us jack in the last 3 weeks of the season. We need results, not another jackass on the TV and on the radio.

I agree, you do need to play the best player right now, but that ALSO includes upside. Anderson, Wise and Owens can barely play at the big league level. Swisher has more potential for upside, based on his historical stats, and a better OBP. If Anderson, Wise or Owens are in, at best you are looking at 1/4, 1/5 with 2-3 Ks.

Im not saying swisher is a great ballplayer, and frankly, the trade for him doesnt look so great in hindsight, but, what i am saying is he is the best option available.

soxfan43
09-12-2008, 01:59 PM
I agree, you do need to play the best player right now, but that ALSO includes upside. Anderson, Wise and Owens can barely play at the big league level. Swisher has more potential for upside, based on his historical stats, and a better OBP. If Anderson, Wise or Owens are in, at best you are looking at 1/4, 1/5 with 2-3 Ks.

Im not saying swisher is a great ballplayer, and frankly, the trade for him doesnt look so great in hindsight, but, what i am saying is he is the best option available.

This is september, you don't play guys for upside. you play whoever helps you win right now. Andersons defense and owens speed is way more valuable than anything swisher can give the club right now.

hawkjt
09-12-2008, 02:00 PM
I did not like the trade because I was a fan of Sweeney...yea,I'm the one.
About the only positives for Swish is his 24 hrs and 78 rbi's. I was thinking he could end up with 30 and 90 if he finished strong but that has not been happening.

Just have to hope he get hot in the last 16 games...stranger things have happened...see Crede in 05.

khan
09-12-2008, 02:18 PM
Just for the sake of accuracy, Owens has the worst throwing arm I've ever seen on a White Sox outfielder.

Oh, I agree that Owens has a poor throwing arm. I simply think that The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac has a poor throwing arm as well.


Think:If KW made a trade for Swisher and Ozzie signed off on it, do you guess they're married to the idea of using him even if it hurts the team?

I hear what you're saying, but this team's (mis)use of the ORIGINAL Rob Mackowiac leads me to believe that they have/will (mis)use The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac as well. Exactly what has he done to prove that he's [CURRENTLY] an MLB-quality hitter and fielder? [For that matter, what has Griffey done to prove that he's still at an MLB level?]

Ozzie and Kenny have a proclivity for making quick decisions on players. Sometimes they're right [Iguchi, Quentin, Floyd], and sometimes they're wrong [Uribe, Rob Mackowiac, The Rich Man's Rob Mackowiac, Griffey, etc...].

khan
09-12-2008, 02:25 PM
Im not saying swisher is a great ballplayer, and frankly, the trade for him doesnt look so great in hindsight, but, what i am saying is he is the best option available.

Again, I disagree. Swisher's reputation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's actual performance right now. So again, separate what he sort of player is right now from what sort of player he is "supposed to be." [As in he's "supposed to be good getting on base." Or Swisher's a "Switch Hitter." Or Swisher can "play a lot of different positions."]

In actuality, RIGHT NOW:
He isn't great with the glove [EDIT] in the Outfield.
He isn't great batting right-handed.
He can't run better than Anderson, Owens, or Wise.

I'm not suggesting that Anderson, Owens, or Wise are great players. I'm suggesting that RIGHT NOW:

Anderson's glove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's "potential" when we're trying to win a division.

Owen's or Wise's speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's "potential" when we're trying to win a division.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2008, 02:54 PM
Again, I disagree. Swisher's reputation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's actual performance right now. So again, separate what he sort of player is right now from what sort of player he is "supposed to be." [As in he's "supposed to be good getting on base." Or Swisher's a "Switch Hitter." Or Swisher can "play a lot of different positions."]

In actuality, RIGHT NOW:
He isn't great with the glove [EDIT] in the Outfield.
He isn't great batting right-handed.
He can't run better than Anderson, Owens, or Wise.

I'm not suggesting that Anderson, Owens, or Wise are great players. I'm suggesting that RIGHT NOW:

Anderson's glove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's "potential" when we're trying to win a division.

Owen's or Wise's speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swisher's "potential" when we're trying to win a division.
For that matter Anderson has the edge on Swisher in every offensive stat except for OBP. Swisher seems like a really nice guy, and I would love for him to be productive on this team, but the sad fact of the matter is right now he's not being at all productive. When Paulie comes back, Anderson should be in CF with Paulie at first and Swish should get a few days off.

munchman33
09-12-2008, 02:59 PM
Swisher went 1 for 4 on Wednesday with three strikeouts, raising his batting average. You can't bench a player on the way up like that. He's obviously started to turn the corner.

Konerko05
09-12-2008, 03:10 PM
I'm all for benching Swisher, but Griffey will still be immobile in center field with his .656 OPS. Dewayne Wise will still be in left field. Not much greener.

The problem with benching Swisher is we need a huge offensive boost. Swisher has the potential to have 1.000 OPS month. At this point I don't think it's going to happen, but we are probably better off keeping him out there.

When Konerko comes back, I'd have Swisher in left and Anderson in center. Throw Griffey out there a couple times a week in various positions, and pinch hitting scenarios.

If Quentin was still in the lineup, then the answer is a definite yes to benching Swisher.

all*star quentin
09-12-2008, 07:40 PM
Swisher's problem is that he just "guesses" at the plate. And guessing is fine if you will take a "defensive" swing with two strikes, but Swish continues to swing for the fences even with two strikes against him.

I think you're on to something there. I remember last season @WS vs A's in one of the game interviews with Swisher he said that he was roommates with a couple of the pitchers and that has helped his hitting.

LJS1993
09-12-2008, 07:41 PM
Gentlemen, I'm a huge Griffey fan as you well know, but I will put my emotions aside and say this. Griffey should be in LF, Wise or Anderson in CF, with Dye in right. Swisher has had some horrible looking cuts as of late and really needs out. Griffey is cold as ice, but at least he worked a walk and would have had a whole different at bat if not for this ridiculous calls by Winter in his last AB. Yes, Griffey has lost a ton due to devestating injuries and age, but he needs to be in the lineup to get hot. Right before the trade he was picking up for the Reds and had some good games for you guys at first.

2906
09-12-2008, 08:16 PM
Gentlemen, I'm a huge Griffey fan as you well know, but I will put my emotions aside and say this. Griffey should be in LF, Wise or Anderson in CF, with Dye in right. Swisher has had some horrible looking cuts as of late and really needs out. Griffey is cold as ice, but at least he worked a walk and would have had a whole different at bat if not for this ridiculous calls by Winter in his last AB. Yes, Griffey has lost a ton due to devestating injuries and age, but he needs to be in the lineup to get hot. Right before the trade he was picking up for the Reds and had some good games for you guys at first.

Can we please stop with the Griffey in LF chatter? Griffey has played a grand total of 3 games in his career in LF. 12 or 13 innings total and none since 2002.

They are not going to take a player and stick him in a totally foreign position during a pennant race. Not going to happen, sorry.

There's an adjustment to learn LF if you've played your whole career in center and right. The wind, the angle of the ball off the bat, positioning, etc. With 16 games left, they are not going to suddenly stick Griffey in LF, no matter how many fans think it's a good idea.

LJS1993
09-12-2008, 08:57 PM
Can we please stop with the Griffey in LF chatter? Griffey has played a grand total of 3 games in his career in LF. 12 or 13 innings total and none since 2002.

They are not going to take a player and stick him in a totally foreign position during a pennant race. Not going to happen, sorry.

There's an adjustment to learn LF if you've played your whole career in center and right. The wind, the angle of the ball off the bat, positioning, etc. With 16 games left, they are not going to suddenly stick Griffey in LF, no matter how many fans think it's a good idea.

Yes, it would be a major adjustment that's for sure. However, it seems like he's been losing a lot of games for your guys out there. Just earlier some guy claimed Griffey should have caught two singles last night, something I never saw, but still someone's brilliant opinion. I personally think he's serviceable in center just not ever going to please anyone due to his decline. In right he's actually made some nice plays, but it's obvious Dye has that locked down.

slavko
09-12-2008, 10:31 PM
Can we please stop with the Griffey in LF chatter? Griffey has played a grand total of 3 games in his career in LF. 12 or 13 innings total and none since 2002.

They are not going to take a player and stick him in a totally foreign position during a pennant race. Not going to happen, sorry.

There's an adjustment to learn LF if you've played your whole career in center and right. The wind, the angle of the ball off the bat, positioning, etc. With 16 games left, they are not going to suddenly stick Griffey in LF, no matter how many fans think it's a good idea.

Add to that, not the hardest thing in the world to figure out, but balls hit to LF and RF have a tendency to curve toward the foul lines. Balls hit to CF are less likely to have side spin on them. A comment in an earlier thread that Griffey won't dive for a ball is probably due to the trouble he has had in his career with his wrist. For a while he wouldn't even try to check a swing for fear of breaking it. The poor guy looks overmatched at the plate, too.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2008, 12:59 AM
As hard as it is to say, given that Griffey is a lock HOFer, right now he does NOTHING better than Swisher. If one of them comes out of the lineup for Anderson or Wise, it would have to be Griffey. But I don't think Anderson or Wise should be in there right now.

Noneck
09-13-2008, 01:14 AM
But I don't think Anderson or Wise should be in there right now.

You realize the only other choice, Owens. Because one of the 3 are the only choices now.

TomBradley72
09-13-2008, 09:39 AM
I think Ozzie and KW need to get there heads out of their ass and play Anderson in CF for most of this road trip. Ken Griffey covering CF in Yankee Stadium? on the astroturf at the Metrodome? spacious Kauffman Stadium? in what can be questionable footing in September weather?

Or...Swisher and his anemic .199 batting average with lots of strike outs and mediocre defense? Maybe in LF or 1B (if PK is still hurt) but never CF.

The only way we're playing in October is if we have solid starting pitching and play good defense. Anderson is a given on defense and has been showing just as much offense as Swisher or Griffey over the past few weeks.

Griffey in CF down the stretch run...especially on the road will end of being a "Mackowiak" like decision for Guillen and we'll end up in the same place we were in 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 in October...sitting at home.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 08:28 AM
I know Nick is a cult icon in Oakland and a darling in Chicago, but man, during that first game he took some horrible cuts. During one at bat I believe he went for a 2-1 curveball in the dirt with a swing that took him to his knees. Then, the guy looks at the 3B coach, points at his eyes, acknowledging that it was a horrible cut at a horrible pitch, then gives that famous little Swisher smile. They way he swings "all or nothing", you'd think HE'S the guy nearing 600 homeruns for his career. Just a thought on the cult icon.

doublem23
09-15-2008, 08:30 AM
I don't believe we've discussed this topic before.

:tiphat:

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 09:26 AM
I know Nick is a cult icon in Oakland and a darling in Chicago, but man, during that first game he took some horrible cuts. During one at bat I believe he went for a 2-1 curveball in the dirt with a swing that took him to his knees. Then, the guy looks at the 3B coach, points at his eyes, acknowledging that it was a horrible cut at a horrible pitch, then gives that famous little Swisher smile. They way he swings "all or nothing", you'd think HE'S the guy nearing 600 homeruns for his career. Just a thought on the cult icon.

An 'all or nothing swing'? What does that mean? Do you mean a HR swing? If so, then you have no business criticizing Swisher for taking some bad power cuts when you have/had guys like Uribe, Thome, Konerko and Crede on this roster. For batting something like .240 on his career his still manages to get on base pretty well and has some power that he can spread around.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 10:29 AM
An 'all or nothing swing'? What does that mean? Do you mean a HR swing? If so, then you have no business criticizing Swisher for taking some bad power cuts when you have/had guys like Uribe, Thome, Konerko and Crede on this roster.

Even if he were the tallest midget (which he's clearly not), it doesn't make it any better. His approach would only be acceptable if he was hitting 40+ homers a year, ala Adam Dunn. And even then, there's a lot of people who don't think Dunn is a very good player.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 12:57 PM
An 'all or nothing swing'? What does that mean? Do you mean a HR swing? If so, then you have no business criticizing Swisher for taking some bad power cuts when you have/had guys like Uribe, Thome, Konerko and Crede on this roster. For batting something like .240 on his career his still manages to get on base pretty well and has some power that he can spread around.

Well if his "HR" swing is a huge cut at a curveball in the dirt when ahead in the count, then he's in for a short career. Also, to lump in Thome and Konerko with Uribe and Crede is absurd. Thome is a man with over 500 homeruns and Konerko is a seasoned veteran who has produced big time for the club. Message to Swisher, you're not a legend like Thome or Griffey. Have some plate discipline, wait for a good pitch and take a smooth swing.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 01:26 PM
As hard as it is to say, given that Griffey is a lock HOFer, right now he does NOTHING better than Swisher. If one of them comes out of the lineup for Anderson or Wise, it would have to be Griffey. But I don't think Anderson or Wise should be in there right now.

Yes, so Swisher is a better hitter? Sure, whatever you say but from what I've seen a 38 year old Griffey is more selective and much more effective in the clutch then Swisher.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 01:50 PM
Well if his "HR" swing is a huge cut at a curveball in the dirt when ahead in the count, then he's in for a short career. Also, to lump in Thome and Konerko with Uribe and Crede is absurd. Thome is a man with over 500 homeruns and Konerko is a seasoned veteran who has produced big time for the club. Message to Swisher, you're not a legend like Thome or Griffey. Have some plate discipline, wait for a good pitch and take a smooth swing.

Plate discipline? He leads the MLB in pitches per plate appearance, not just his team or the AL but the entire MLB! Now who is being absurd.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 01:54 PM
Plate discipline? He leads the MLB in pitches per plate appearance, not just his team or the AL but the entire MLB! Now who is being absurd.

"Plate discipline" does not involve taking the first two pitches and swinging through the next three.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 01:59 PM
Plate discipline? He leads the MLB in pitches per plate appearance, not just his team or the AL but the entire MLB! Now who is being absurd.

That little stat really doesn't tell the whole story. What he does is foul off pitches that a person with a legit eye would merely lay off of in order to work the count for something better.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 02:00 PM
Yes, so Swisher is a better hitter? Sure, whatever you say but from what I've seen a 38 year old Griffey is more selective and much more effective in the clutch then Swisher.

Well then you need to clean your glasses or change your contacts or something:

Nick Swisher 2008 P/PA: 4.46 (1st in MLB)
Ken Griffey Jr. '08 PPA: 3.95 (39th in MLB)

So....yeah

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 02:01 PM
"Plate discipline" does not involve taking the first two pitches and swinging through the next three.

I concur. The guy has no discipline whatsoever. He swings wildly with a swing that really is ugly.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 02:02 PM
Well then you need to clean your glasses or change your contacts or something:

Nick Swisher 2008 P/PA: 4.46 (1st in MLB)
Ken Griffey Jr. '08 PPA: 3.95 (39th in MLB)

So....yeah

Like i said in my last response to you in a previous thread, that stat is far from telling the story Mr. Stat Wizard.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 02:03 PM
That little stat really doesn't tell the whole story. What he does is foul off pitches that a person with a legit eye would merely lay off of in order to work the count for something better.

That might be the arbitrary statement to end all arbitrary statements. Please define "legit eye" and how Swisher does not have one. And if not, then which games have you seen where Swisher fouled off a pitch and then another batter with said "legit eye" fouled off the exact same pitch (i.e. count, location, break, speed etc.) Also, if you have seen that happen, have you seen it happen more than once? A majority of the time? Come on.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 02:10 PM
That might be the arbitrary statement to end all arbitrary statements. Please define "legit eye" and how Swisher does not have one. And if not, then which games have you seen where Swisher fouled off a pitch and then another batter with said "legit eye" fouled off the exact same pitch (i.e. count, location, break, speed etc.) Also, if you have seen that happen, have you seen it happen more than once? A majority of the time? Come on.

A person with a legit eye is actually very simple. A hitter that doesn't swing at curveballs in the dirt when ahead in the count. A legit eye is someone who works the count and makes the pitcher work to him, not thee other way around. A legit eye is a hitter who doesn't merely swing at a bunch of pitches, fouls them off, then drops to one knee on another feeble attempt called a "home run" swing. If Nick Swisher is a hitter with a good eye in your definition, then I really would have enjoyed seeing you hit against someone with more than one pitch.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 02:17 PM
A legit eye is someone who works the count and makes the pitcher work to him, not thee other way around.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=al&season=2008&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all&startDate=null&endDate=null&minpa=0


You really have no idea what you are talking about.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 02:51 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=al&season=2008&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all&startDate=null&endDate=null&minpa=0


You really have no idea what you are talking about.

I would argue that he's closer to correct than you are. If Nick is seeing all those pitches, yet is his numbers are so absurdly bad (i.e. beyond the point of "luck" causing them to be bad), there's obviously something deceiving about those figures. It's way more likely that he's taking pitches simply to take more pitches, otherwise his overall numbers would be a lot better. It isn't like this guy is a .400+ OBP guy. He's not in the star OBP category.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 03:03 PM
There were two threads going about whether or not Swisher sucks, so I merged them.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 04:22 PM
I would argue that he's closer to correct than you are. If Nick is seeing all those pitches, yet is his numbers are so absurdly bad (i.e. beyond the point of "luck" causing them to be bad), there's obviously something deceiving about those figures. It's way more likely that he's taking pitches simply to take more pitches, otherwise his overall numbers would be a lot better. It isn't like this guy is a .400+ OBP guy. He's not in the star OBP category.

You heard it here first, folks. Nick Swisher is now padding his P/PA stats. That has got to be a first. Does he have an incentive clause in his contract about that?

And how are those numbers deceiving? They are not describing his ability to hit the ball, but rather his ability to work the pitcher. Maybe he just is not hitting the ball? Did that ever occur to you? By that I mean that maybe he is taking pitches, working the count by fouling balls off (if/when he falls behind after taking a few) and swinging and missing or getting called out on a close pitch? The last thing has nothing to do with his "legit eye" and more to do with the fact that he is having an off year.

Even then, he is working the count: the guy is 2nd on the team in walks!

TomBradley72
09-15-2008, 04:31 PM
Even then, he is working the count: the guy is 2nd on the team in walks!

Who cares? He's been hitting .199 since the All Star break. .199! There are pitchers in the National League who are hitting better. His OBP is .305 in that span.

He.

SUCKS.

Eddo144
09-15-2008, 04:31 PM
O-Swing% is the abbreviation for the percent of pitches outside the strike zone that a batter swings at. Nick Swisher swings at less than 19% of all pitches outside the strike zone, good for the 22nd lowest O-Swing% in all of baseball. This is also the lowest rate on the Sox.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=4&season=2008&month=0

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 04:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=al&season=2008&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all&startDate=null&endDate=null&minpa=0


You really have no idea what you are talking about.

And you've obviously never played the game or have true knowledge if all you can do is throw stats claiming Swisher is a disciplined hitter. Honestly I can care less about your little miniscule stat. The fact is the man has a huge swing which gives minimal gains in return. Simple, argument done.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 04:48 PM
You heard it here first, folks. Nick Swisher is now padding his P/PA stats. That has got to be a first. Does he have an incentive clause in his contract about that?

And how are those numbers deceiving? They are not describing his ability to hit the ball, but rather his ability to work the pitcher. Maybe he just is not hitting the ball? Did that ever occur to you? By that I mean that maybe he is taking pitches, working the count by fouling balls off (if/when he falls behind after taking a few) and swinging and missing or getting called out on a close pitch? The last thing has nothing to do with his "legit eye" and more to do with the fact that he is having an off year.

Even then, he is working the count: the guy is 2nd on the team in walks!

Padding? Who in hell would pad a miniscule stat as such. Simple fact is any hitter who swings at a curveball when ahead in the count is NOT disciplined, is really fooled, and is going to have a short career if he keeps that crap going.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 04:51 PM
Who would you rather have up in the clutch among those three? Two legends, or one short little guy who swings at curveballs when he's ahead in the count?

jabrch
09-15-2008, 04:53 PM
The fact is the man has a huge swing which gives minimal gains in return. Simple, argument done.

What does that have to do with your previous point that he doesn't have a "legit eye"?

Your arguement is simple - assuming that by simple you mean WEAK.

Are you really proposing that Swisher doesn't (in your words), "works the count and makes the pitcher work to him"? Are you really proposing that his eye is not "legit" whatever this means?

You may not like Swisher's results - neither do I. But let's have a real honest discussion about it. I hate his approach at the plate. But I don't hate it because he doesn't have "a legit eye". Hell - I think he has two legit eyes. And I think he is too patient. And I think he works the count too much. I'd like a guy who gets in the box, finds the first hittable pitch and drives it hard. Swisher waits for the perfect pitch - passing up balls that are either in the zone, but not where he likes, or just out of the zone, but still very hittable. This was a HOF approach for Frank Thomas. It is not so good for Swisher. But to say he doesn't have "a legit eye" is just plain old simple.

And you've obviously never played the game or have true knowledge

Obviously...My experience and knowledge pales in comparison to your HOF credentials I am sure. Next time I am in Cooperstown, I'll visit your bust and pay homage to your genius. And for the record, you are wrong. I had a few really good years in Little League.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 04:56 PM
Padding? Who in hell would pad a miniscule stat as such. Simple fact is any hitter who swings at a curveball when ahead in the count is NOT disciplined, is really fooled, and is going to have a short career if he keeps that crap going.

That's a fact? I think you need to define the word fact a bit. Let me help - I think I know your definition of fact.

Fact [fakt] - a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:00 PM
You heard it here first, folks. Nick Swisher is now padding his P/PA stats. That has got to be a first. Does he have an incentive clause in his contract about that?

And how are those numbers deceiving? They are not describing his ability to hit the ball, but rather his ability to work the pitcher. Maybe he just is not hitting the ball? Did that ever occur to you? By that I mean that maybe he is taking pitches, working the count by fouling balls off (if/when he falls behind after taking a few) and swinging and missing or getting called out on a close pitch? The last thing has nothing to do with his "legit eye" and more to do with the fact that he is having an off year.

Even then, he is working the count: the guy is 2nd on the team in walks!

He also has more strikeouts than he has walks. More strikeouts than he has hits. Do guys with great eyes strikeout that much? Do they strikeout that much looking?

The numbers people have to reach for to defend him are a joke. Sure, he's batting .220. Sure, he's batting .192 in innings 7-9. Sure, his OBP is a pedestrian .336. Sure, he's slugging less than .420. Sure, he's terrible as a centerfielder.

But he takes 5 pitches an at bat. And you can't put a value on how much more important that is to winning ballgames than producing runs.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:02 PM
There were two threads going about whether or not Swisher sucks, so I merged them.

Wanna bet there's another one after tonight's game?

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 05:12 PM
If Nick is seeing all those pitches, yet is his numbers are so absurdly bad (i.e. beyond the point of "luck" causing them to be bad), there's obviously something deceiving about those figures.
Not true at all, actually.

Here's Nick's BABIP:http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_1BOF_season_full_7_20080914.png

A pretty significant drop. That's usually an indication of either two things: a change in trend, usually something along the lines of fewer line drives and more fly balls/ground balls, or just bad luck. Here's his batted ball trends: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_1BOF_season_full_9_20080914.png
Hmm...Well his numbers are in line with his career...hmm...

Yep, I agree with TomBradley72 -- clearly he sucks. He's been hitting balls at the same rate as other years, but, he sucks!

I'd say his numbers are down due to a rise in strikeout percentage and a drop in walk percentage. Something that can be corrected. Even with this drop, he should still be hitting 25-30 points higher. Bad luck.

SoxNation05
09-15-2008, 05:15 PM
Not Griffey. But I would take Thome over Swish.

SluggerJim
09-15-2008, 05:17 PM
Thome, unquestionably.

Thome as a home-run hitter, has always piled up the strikeouts.

Griffey, on the other hand, just often has just looked lost. He's had a couple key hits, but he truly does look like he's done.

Swisher, well, hopefully this year is an anomaly, since other than in April, he's looked abysmal at the plate. Yea, there's something to be said for chemistry (quite a bit, I'd imagine) but chemistry doesn't do much with RISP.

Regards,

SJ

CHISOXFAN13
09-15-2008, 05:17 PM
We get it already. You don't like Swisher. How many threads are you going to start about it?

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:19 PM
Swisher, well, hopefully this year is an anomaly, since other than in April, he's looked abysmal at the plate.




If there's an anomaly in Swisher's batting, I think you just answered your own question as to what the anomoly is.

MisterB
09-15-2008, 05:24 PM
He also has more strikeouts than he has walks. More strikeouts than he has hits. Do guys with great eyes strikeout that much? Do they strikeout that much looking?

:thome:
"You tell me, smart guy."

(2038 career hits, 1541 career walks, 2174 career strikeouts..and counting)

Here's a hint: the ability to discern ball from strike and the ability to make contact when you swing are NOT the same thing.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:24 PM
Not true at all, actually.

Here's Nick's BABIP:http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_1BOF_season_full_7_20080914.png

A pretty significant drop. That's usually an indication of either two things: a change in trend, usually something along the lines of fewer line drives and more fly balls/ground balls, or just bad luck. Here's his batted ball trends: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_1BOF_season_full_9_20080914.png
Hmm...Well his numbers are in line with his career...hmm...

Yep, I agree with TomBradley72 -- clearly he sucks. He's been hitting balls at the same rate as other years, but, he sucks!

I'd say his numbers are down due to a rise in strikeout percentage and a drop in walk percentage. Something that can be corrected. Even with this drop, he should still be hitting 25-30 points higher. Bad luck.


He's striking out more and walking less because he's being pitched differently. The league has figured him out.

As for the contact thing...it's not like he's hitting scorching liners. The guy's been consistently sawed off all year round. If he's making the same kind of contact as he's always been (doubtful), then the only assumption is that in previous years he's been extremely lucky. Because his results are pretty dang on par for exactly how bad he's been hitting the ball. He looks like a .220 hitter at the plate.

Kudos on the graphs.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:28 PM
:thome:
"You tell me, smart guy."

(2038 career hits, 1541 career walks, 2174 career strikeouts..and counting)

Here's a hint: the ability to discern ball from strike and the ability to make contact when you swing are NOT the same thing.

Except Thome could hit for a higher average if he wanted too. He choses his plate approach because he's good enough to make a decent amount of good contact with his approach and have ridiculous power to boot.

Swisher is not. So either he doesn't have a great eye, or he's a complete moron who thinks he's got the same tools as guys like Jim Thome and Adam Dunn. And I don't think he's a moron.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 05:28 PM
And you've obviously never played the game or have true knowledge if all you can do is throw stats claiming Swisher is a disciplined hitter. Honestly I can care less about your little miniscule stat. The fact is the man has a huge swing which gives minimal gains in return. Simple, argument done.


What in the hell does his swing have to do with his having or not having "legit eye"? You started by saying that he doesn't work the count and make a pitcher work, and when you were proven wrong about that you are now talking about his swing? This isn't a discussion on his swing, it's a discussion on his ability to work the count and see pitches in an at-bat. Not simple enough for you, argument continuing.

forrestg
09-15-2008, 05:30 PM
I like the idea of Swisher working the pitcher.. I believe that is better than swinging at the first pitch. Carl Everett had a great approach, I know he swung wildly at time but changed his approach when he had 2 strikes.. Swisher has one swing it is limited to hitting the ball a long way. The sox sorely need people to get hits which involves looking to hit the ball the other way.. He just can't control the bat well enough with his all or nothing swing.. If Konerko is not coming back or not 80% what are options.. .199 average on a contender is wrong. Again who else can be inserted in his place.. Swisher can be improved on he doesn't have a stretch.. He looks clumsy.. I would suggest Ozzie try Jermaine at first against lefties and Griffey against righties. I'm not sure either has played there before.. I'm guessing Jermaine has the best hands and came up as a short stop. Griffey was said to have tried it there and was not comfortable. NO one would like to make Ken uncomfortable. We need a little better than a .199 average at first a position usually manned with someone that has decent power or as in some teams the best hitter on the club.. Swisher is selective as indicated by the 5+ pitches but when one does a pitch he can't handle it. I'm not sure he can control the bat well enough to take it the other way.. Joe crede was sometimes surprisingly good at getting cheap hits by taking certain pitches.. Swisher hasn't produce the results ..

munchman33
09-15-2008, 05:34 PM
What in the hell does his swing have to do with his having or not having "legit eye"? You started by saying that he doesn't work the count and make a pitcher work, and when you were proven wrong about that you are now talking about his swing? This isn't a discussion on his swing, it's a discussion on his ability to work the count and see pitches in an at-bat. Not simple enough for you, argument continuing.

I think the biggest misconception around here is how people are misinterpreting the pitch per at bat statistic. There's a difference between taking pitches and working the count. Working the count involves being able to, if need be, foul off tough pitches and lay off other pitches to get a count more suited to hitting. Nick Swisher does neither of those. He takes pitches early in the count, and will take every close pitch in the at bat, even with two strikes when he should be fouling them off or trying to hit them. He relies on the pitcher and the umpire to get better counts (and better pitches to hit). He's not working the count at all. The count is working him.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 06:05 PM
I think the biggest misconception around here is that people here are misinterpreting the pitch per at bat statistic. There's a difference between taking pitches and working the count. Working the count involves being able to, if need be, foul off tough pitches and lay off other pitches to get a count more suited to hitting. Nick Swisher does neither of those. He takes pitches early in the count, and will take every close pitch in the at bat, even with two strikes when he should be fouling them off or trying to hit them. He relies on the pitcher and the umpire to get better counts (and better pitches to hit). He's not working the count at all. The count is working him.


Ok now this is the arbitrary statement to end all arbitrary statements. The percentage of pitches that Swisher gets in the strikezone is 48.12%, meaning that 52.88% of pitches he sees are outside the strikezone, and the percentage of pitches outside the strikezone that he swings at is 18.99%. What could be more clear cut than that? He is taking pitches trying to get a better count or get on base via a walk. So I guess your statement is not arbitrary, just wrong.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 06:11 PM
Ok now this is the arbitrary statement to end all arbitrary statements. The percentage of pitches that Swisher gets in the strikezone is 48.12%, meaning that 52.88% of pitches he sees are outside the strikezone, and the percentage of pitches outside the strikezone that he swings at is 18.99%. What could be more clear cut than that? He is taking pitches trying to get a better count or get on base via a walk. So I guess your statement is not arbitrary, just wrong.

More than half the pitches he sees are balls, yet he strikes out amongst the leaders in the league. And you say he has a good eye?

LMAO :rolling:

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 06:17 PM
If there's an anomaly in Swisher's batting, I think you just answered your own question as to what the anomoly is.

Oh, but wait Munchman, he leads the White Sox in a mundane hitting stat which is religiously revered by the stat wizards of the game.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 06:19 PM
More than half the pitches he sees are balls, yet he strikes out amongst the leaders in the league. And you say he has a good eye?

LMAO :rolling:

I concur. I want to see what exact pitches he's taking. Because from what I've seen, he's sure as hell swinging at alot of breaking balls when ahead in the count. I guess a breaking ball is a pitch he can drive on one knee.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh, but wait Munchman, he leads the White Sox in a mundane hitting stat which is religiously revered by the stat wizards of the game.

Oh God are you two serious? Let it go already. You don't like Swisher, we freaking get it: we're all nerds who hate baseball because we never could play it, and that is why we are ruining it with our statistical analysis.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh, but wait Munchman, he leads the White Sox in a mundane hitting stat which is religiously revered by the stat wizards of the game.

Pitches per at bat = wins

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 06:30 PM
Pitches per at bat = wins

Yes, and Swisher is taking this club straight to the World Series. :D:

I don't know about the rest of these guys, but if it's a critical clutch situation, I want Griffey at the plate. Ya ya, he's done, finished, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, has lost the Sox games out in center, runs slower then Greg Luzinski, every single ad naseum little stat and opinion. Simple, I want Junior at the plate because stars like that are clutch. He is still feared at the plate, works to get HIS pitch, and will drive the ball. He's been there, and done that, something guys like Swisher will NEVER be able to say. Swisher is a ham and egg talent. Guys like Thome and Griffey have the internal kill switch when it comes to clutch situations.

FedEx227
09-15-2008, 06:39 PM
Mr. Internal Kill Switch Jim Thome's career playoff splits:
.229/.326/.516, 0 Rings

Short, Swing at Everything Bad And Take Pitches Because I'm an Idiot I Hate Numbers Nick Swisher career playoff splits:
.207/.407/.300, 0 Rings

The point being... they both have zero rings and they both tend to underachieve in the playoffs.

And Griffey, although with good playoff numbers also has no rings.

It's almost as if.... wait for it... wait for it... baseball is a team game, that isn't dependent on one supposed "CLUTCH" player with an "internal KILL SWITCH"

munchman33
09-15-2008, 06:41 PM
Oh God are you two serious? Let it go already. You don't like Swisher, we freaking get it: we're all nerds who hate baseball because we never could play it, and that is why we are ruining it with our statistical analysis.

It's not that I dislike Swisher. I just want what's best for the White Sox. It's obvious to everyone outside of this club's fanbase that the guy isn't very good. And if we're going to be serious about contending for a title, Swisher needs to go. Unfortunately, he's developed a cult following the likes of which Aaron Rowand would be envious of. And the only way we'll ever be able to get rid of him is if the fans are sick of his lack of production.

So, I am not going to give it a rest. As long as people continue to view Swisher as anything but the mediocre at best baseball player he's proven himself to be, I'll be right there calling them out on their ignorance to reality.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 06:42 PM
Mr. Internal Kill Switch Jim Thome's career playoff splits:
.229/.326/.516, 0 Rings

Short, Swing at Everything Bad And Take Pitches Because I'm an Idiot I Hate Numbers Nick Swisher career playoff splits:
.207/.407/.300, 0 Rings

The point being... they both have zero rings and they both tend to underachieve in the playoffs.

And Griffey, although with good playoff numbers also has no rings.

It's almost as if.... wait for it... wait for it... baseball is a team game, that isn't dependent on one supposed "CLUTCH" player with an "internal KILL SWITCH"

Oh but wait, but wait, .............. you know when it comes down to pitcher versus hitter, it is one on one in that case. My situation has nothing to do with a team game or not. Of course, I guess you must be one of the guys who fancies a short little guy swinging on one knee as a real team player I guess.

Let's see, little guy who swings for the fence on one knee, or..... or..... one first time HOF player and another potential guy going to the HOF?........ Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess for many it's their cult icon with lamb chops and goofy beards. But for me, I'll go with two legends.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 06:45 PM
I'll be right there calling them out on their ignorance to reality.

With your ignorance of baseball statistics? Yeah, that makes sene.

Swisher is having an off year, anyone will tell you that, but that isn't reason to run him out of town (in his first season, mind you), especially with his shown ability to hit with a little power, get on base, and work the pitcher. Not all of those things show up in the box score, but that doesn't mean they don't help.

FedEx227
09-15-2008, 06:47 PM
Let's see, little guy who swings for the fence on one knee, or..... or..... one first time HOF player and another potential guy going to the HOF?........ Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess for many it's their cult icon with lamb chops and goofy beards. But for me, I'll go with two legends.

I want Willie Mays up in the 9th inning for the White Sox, he's a Hall of Famer you know.

LJS1993
09-15-2008, 06:49 PM
I want Willie Mays up in the 9th inning for the White Sox, he's a Hall of Famer you know.

A mid thirties Willie? Damn straight I'm with you on that one.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 07:06 PM
With your ignorance of baseball statistics? Yeah, that makes sene.

Swisher is having an off year, anyone will tell you that, but that isn't reason to run him out of town (in his first season, mind you), especially with his shown ability to hit with a little power, get on base, and work the pitcher. Not all of those things show up in the box score, but that doesn't mean they don't help.

The only "baseball statistic" people can use to defend him is quite a dubious one, as it has no bearing on the outcome of the game in any way.

Swisher is having an off year? He's a young player without a ton of experience. In his career, he's had one slightly above average season, two average/below average seasons, and one abysmal season. And the slightly above average season wasn't last season. It isn't like this is some veteran with a track record or a head case with a ton of talent. Swisher's a flash in the pan who's been on the way down for two years now.

2906
09-15-2008, 07:21 PM
Swisher's a flash in the pan who's been on the way down for two years now.

I guess we'll see, won't we?

Too bad for you, he'll be with the White Sox and you'll just have to suffer through it, even when he rebounds next year. You'll be hoarding Do Los Santos baseball cards though, so it's all good.

2906
09-15-2008, 07:23 PM
As long as people continue to view Swisher as anything but the mediocre at best baseball player he's proven himself to be, I'll be right there calling them out on their ignorance to reality.

Yeah, you're the baseball soothsayer who knows more than the rest of us.

Ignorance to reality? Yeah, you don't post to aggravate people. It's everyone else's fault.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 09:03 PM
Oh but wait, but wait, .............. you know when it comes down to pitcher versus hitter, it is one on one in that case. My situation has nothing to do with a team game or not. Of course, I guess you must be one of the guys who fancies a short little guy swinging on one knee as a real team player I guess.

Let's see, little guy who swings for the fence on one knee, or..... or..... one first time HOF player and another potential guy going to the HOF?........ Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess for many it's their cult icon with lamb chops and goofy beards. But for me, I'll go with two legends.

I'll take Phil Rizzuto, he's a HOF'er. You want to know why I picked good ol' Phil? Cause he sucks and shouldn't be in the HOF. My point is, HOF means very little, if anything, when evaluating baseball talent and worth. It means even less when you equate HOF to "clutch". With "clutch" being that stupid label that people put on players that hit HR's they remember. I would go with Griffey in a late-game situation, but don't make the mistake of labeling that "clutch" because "clutch" as it is defines usually, does not exist.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 09:21 PM
The only "baseball statistic" people can use to defend him is quite a dubious one, as it has no bearing on the outcome of the game in any way.

Swisher is having an off year? He's a young player without a ton of experience. In his career, he's had one slightly above average season, two average/below average seasons, and one abysmal season. And the slightly above average season wasn't last season. It isn't like this is some veteran with a track record or a head case with a ton of talent. Swisher's a flash in the pan who's been on the way down for two years now.
Yes, clearly he's been declining for two seasons.

Oh wait, in 2007 he posted a much better K rate and BB rate than 2006! And batted for a higher average!

munchman33
09-15-2008, 10:49 PM
Yes, clearly he's been declining for two seasons.

Oh wait, in 2007 he posted a much better K rate and BB rate than 2006! And batted for a higher average!

You think his 2007 season wasn't a significant dropoff from 2006? You need to look at it again.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2008, 10:50 PM
You think his 2007 season wasn't a significant dropoff from 2006? You need to look at it again.
What are you talking about? He hit 13 less home runs -- and 12 more doubles. Not crazy.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 10:56 PM
What are you talking about? He hit 13 less home runs -- and 12 more doubles. Not crazy.

He also had significantly less total bases, runs scored, rbis, and a much lower slugging percentage. All while having the same number of hits and three less walks.

But yeah. It was like a mirror image season. No significant power dropoff at all.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 11:02 PM
Please keep the "Swisher sucks" discussion to the one thread, and stop opening up new ones to make the same points over and over again. I'm getting tired of merging them.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 11:05 PM
You think his 2007 season wasn't a significant dropoff from 2006? You need to look at it again.

I looked at it once...twice...and, yep that's three times now and...what are you talking about? It wasn't a drop-off at all.

2006: .254/.371/.493 with an OPS+ of 125
2007: .262/.381/.455 with an OPS+ of 127

What part of 2007 was a significant drop-off? His SLG numbers took a bit of a dip but he raised his OBP by a good amount and he hit his career high in doubles. He also walked 100 times and struck out less. If by drop-off you mean that he fell off in SLG (which anyone will tell you is not nearly as important as OBP), then you have made another weak argument.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 11:10 PM
I looked at it once...twice...and, yep that's three times now and...what are you talking about? It wasn't a drop-off at all.

2006: .254/.371/.493 with an OPS+ of 125
2007: .262/.381/.455 with an OPS+ of 127

What part of 2007 was a significant drop-off? His SLG numbers took a bit of a dip but he raised his OBP by a good amount and he hit his career high in doubles. He also walked 100 times and struck out less. If by drop-off you mean that he fell off in SLG (which anyone will tell you is not nearly as important as OBP), then you have made another weak argument.

Anyone who? I don't believe OBP is nearly as important as slugging when you're talking about a guy that goes up to the plate trying to hit home runs.

Swisher is a slugger. OBP is a nice plus. But you have to slug first, at least with his approach to swinging. And his slugging fell nearly fifty points! You're trading that in for a very small difference in OBP...what amounted to three walks. PSHH.

munchman33
09-15-2008, 11:11 PM
Please keep the "Swisher sucks" discussion to the one thread, and stop opening up new ones to make the same points over and over again. I'm getting tired of merging them.

Swisher is the new attendance.

Lefty34
09-15-2008, 11:53 PM
Anyone who?

Bill James, he's kind of like the Godfather of statistical analysis of baseball (there were a few others before him, but he brought it all together with his almanacs)

I don't believe OBP is nearly as important as slugging when you're talking about a guy that goes up to the plate trying to hit home runs.

Well then what you are really worried about is HR totals, not necessarily SLG. And looking at HR totals is fine, but it's easy; the real trick is to look at the numbers that show a guy was/is productive despite a dip in HR's.

Swisher is a slugger. OBP is a nice plus. But you have to slug first, at least with his approach to swinging.

His OPS+ in 2007 was higher than it was in 2006! Granted it was only two points higher, but it was on the same level as it was in '06! And you don't necessarily have to slug first, seeing as how the above Godfather (and others) believe that OBP is about four-times as important as SLG.


And his slugging fell nearly fifty points!

Again, his OPS+ was on the same level as 2006!

You're trading that in for a very small difference in OBP...what amounted to three walks. PSHH.

And less strike outs and more doubles, and an OPS+ that was nearly the same as it was in 2006, let's not forget those. Also, his RC/G in '07 (6.34) was nearly the same as in '06 (6.55). Finally, his VORP in 2006 was 28.1, which is lower than his VORP mark in 2007 of 31.5. Still see a drop-off?

LJS1993
09-16-2008, 12:12 AM
Griffey making over the shoulder catches, nice little reverse pivots, RBI doubles, scoring runs. All the while Swisher is on one knee and growing lamb chops. Nice, alot of knowledge around here.

munchman33
09-16-2008, 12:37 AM
Bill James, he's kind of like the Godfather of statistical analysis of baseball (there were a few others before him, but he brought it all together with his almanacs)



Well then what you are really worried about is HR totals, not necessarily SLG. And looking at HR totals is fine, but it's easy; the real trick is to look at the numbers that show a guy was/is productive despite a dip in HR's.



His OPS+ in 2007 was higher than it was in 2006! Granted it was only two points higher, but it was on the same level as it was in '06! And you don't necessarily have to slug first, seeing as how the above Godfather (and others) believe that OBP is about four-times as important as SLG.




Again, his OPS+ was on the same level as 2006!



And less strike outs and more doubles, and an OPS+ that was nearly the same as it was in 2006, let's not forget those. Also, his RC/G in '07 (6.34) was nearly the same as in '06 (6.55). Finally, his VORP in 2006 was 28.1, which is lower than his VORP mark in 2007 of 31.5. Still see a drop-off?

Where's Daver when you need him...

LJS1993
09-16-2008, 12:43 AM
Where's Daver when you need him...

Eh, the game has become inundated with nerds obsessing over obscure statistics and less on what is seen. Let the pencil pushers have their stats.

Craig Grebeck
09-16-2008, 08:34 AM
Eh, the game has become inundated with nerds obsessing over obscure statistics and less on what is seen. Let the pencil pushers have their stats.
Seriously? Really? Hey man, if you think Ken Griffey Jr. is still even an average CF, that's your problem.
Where's Daver when you need him...

Can you really not make your own argument? You need Daver to come in here and say "stats are worthless -- or at least those who use them as the crux of their argument etc. etc. etc."? You've been pushing stats this whole time!
He also had significantly less total bases, runs scored, rbis, and a much lower slugging percentage. All while having the same number of hits and three less walks.
Come on. You've got to have better than this. Total bases? I'd say they were less because he replaced his HR with doubles. Runs scored? What is this -- little league? Looking at runs scored is ridiculous. Swisher got on base at a higher clip than the year before; any drop-off in runs scored was a product of his supporting cast. RBI? If you think that statistic still has any merit whatsoever, I'll see you at the next flat earth society meeting. We've already covered slugging, it was lower because of his drop in HR and increase in doubles.

Are you measuring hits and walks by totals? Because, as you should know, looking at hit and walk rates is much more efficient. His batting average was .262, higher than the year before (not significantly, but an improvement nonetheless). His BB rate was also 2.2% higher than the year before, so that kinda throws a wrench into your argument.

I don't think Swisher is amazing by any means, but he can be useful for this team. He's certainly a much better option in CF than Ken Griffey Jr. -- there's really no argument there.

FedEx227
09-16-2008, 08:45 AM
Eh, the game has become inundated with nerds obsessing over obscure statistics and less on what is seen. Let the pencil pushers have their stats.

Well I applaud you, you're able to watch every single baseball game in the league at the same time and are able to assess every single players value to his team throughout an entire season. Bravo sir. You're truly one of a kind.

Unfortunately for most of us with 2 eyes and jobs, we can't quite watch every game so sometimes we use *GASP* numbers to grade players.

spiffie
09-16-2008, 09:20 AM
Stats are mostly just mental masturbation. Show me a batting average, how many doubles and HR and RBI a guy has, and then let me actually see him play and I can tell you if he is a good player. The rest of it is guys who couldn't actually play Little League because their asthma was too bad trying desperately to get into the inner circle of the game by showing off their abilities with a spreadsheet.

Nick Swisher is a decent player with room for improvement. He has a good power swing and a solid eye at the plate, but he is afraid to pull the trigger on a pitch that is not just right. If he can get over that he can become a good to very good player. If not, he will be a decent bottom of the order guy. And I can make that analysis with the square root of VORP divided by FROOGLP to the BAJHD power or whatever sort of goofy stat crap propellerheads are doing these days.

munchman33
09-16-2008, 10:12 AM
Can you really not make your own argument? You need Daver to come in here and say "stats are worthless -- or at least those who use them as the crux of their argument etc. etc. etc."? You've been pushing stats this whole time!


Because I don't misuse or misinterpret them, and I'm sick of writing about how OPS+ is the worst, most blatantly fake statistic out there.

Come on. You've got to have better than this. Total bases? I'd say they were less because he replaced his HR with doubles. Runs scored? What is this -- little league? Looking at runs scored is ridiculous. Swisher got on base at a higher clip than the year before; any drop-off in runs scored was a product of his supporting cast. RBI? If you think that statistic still has any merit whatsoever, I'll see you at the next flat earth society meeting. We've already covered slugging, it was lower because of his drop in HR and increase in doubles.

Are you measuring hits and walks by totals? Because, as you should know, looking at hit and walk rates is much more efficient. His batting average was .262, higher than the year before (not significantly, but an improvement nonetheless). His BB rate was also 2.2% higher than the year before, so that kinda throws a wrench into your argument.

I don't think Swisher is amazing by any means, but he can be useful for this team. He's certainly a much better option in CF than Ken Griffey Jr. -- there's really no argument there.

You are severely understating a huge drop in slugging and over stating an increase in OBP percentage that was affected by 0 hits and three more walks. If that isn't a case for how statistics can be misused and misinterpreted, I don't know what is.

areilly
09-16-2008, 11:47 AM
Griffey making over the shoulder catches, nice little reverse pivots, RBI doubles, scoring runs. All the while Swisher is on one knee and growing lamb chops. Nice, alot of knowledge around here.

Griffey has one over-the-shoulder catch and one RBI double in a Sox uniform. One.

Rip on Swisher all you want, but let's try to keep in mind just how long ago 1997 was.

Lefty34
09-16-2008, 11:54 AM
Because I don't misuse or misinterpret them, and I'm sick of writing about how OPS+ is the worst, most blatantly fake statistic out there.


Fake? Come on, dude, that's just dense. I invite you all to a round table discussion in my mom's basement (Cheetos and Mr. Pibb will be provided) about how OPS is a useful statistic. It is not really the best possible (given the obvious difference between the importance of OBP and SLG), but it gives you a quick glimpse as to how patient and powerful a hitter is, it's that simple. Now OPS+ is just OPS (minus the ".") adjusted for the league the player is in, which gives you an even better idea of how he performed against his peers in the league. An OPS+ of 100 is average.


You are severely understating a huge drop in slugging and over stating an increase in OBP percentage that was affected by 0 hits and three more walks. If that isn't a case for how statistics can be misused and misinterpreted, I don't know what is.

His OPS+ was the same! S-A-M-E! More than that, his VORP was higher in '07. What is so hard to uderstand about that?

Craig Grebeck
09-16-2008, 12:02 PM
Because I don't misuse or misinterpret them, and I'm sick of writing about how OPS+ is the worst, most blatantly fake statistic out there.



You are severely understating a huge drop in slugging and over stating an increase in OBP percentage that was affected by 0 hits and three more walks. If that isn't a case for how statistics can be misused and misinterpreted, I don't know what is.
This is the pot calling the kettle back if it ever was. Looking at hit totals and walk totals is foolish when you consider there was a difference in games played/plate appearances. Look at his rates. He had a better walk rate, a better strikeout rate, and a better rate of hitting (batting average) in 2007. He hit fewer home runs -- yes, that is a given, but when you consider the fact that he increased his doubles by 50% in 2007, it makes plenty of sense.

OPS+ is not perfect, but consider the fact that it is park adjusted and relative to his peers. Slugging percentage (on its own) is not worth a thing.

guillensdisciple
09-16-2008, 04:28 PM
Whether you want him to play this year or not can be discussed but hearing how people are saying that the Sox should ship him might be the dumbes thing I have ever heard. Did anyone else see his priors, this guy is a monster waiting to erupt. This year was a down year and switching clubs can do that. I wrote this before and will write it again, Swish was in a very very soft environment in terms of baseball . He is now in a city that will absolutely destroy him. For a guy that has the heat on him like he does he is doing well. His numbers aren't godly but the guy has got the job done in most cases. Recently it looks like he is a failure but before that he saved the Sox more then we think he has.

Maybe the wisest choice would be to let him rest a few when Paulie gets back and put Wise in left. However there is no way this guy should be put down, he has way too many intagibles. He is an all effort guy, will give you everything he has.

Next year I expect moster things out of Swish and a bunch of Swish haters to shut up.

TomBradley72
09-16-2008, 05:46 PM
For a guy that has the heat on him like he does he is doing well. His numbers aren't godly but the guy has got the job done in most cases. Recently it looks like he is a failure but before that he saved the Sox more then we think he has.

Maybe the wisest choice would be to let him rest a few when Paulie gets back and put Wise in left. However there is no way this guy should be put down, he has way too many intagibles. He is an all effort guy, will give you everything he has.

Next year I expect moster things out of Swish and a bunch of Swish haters to shut up.

Even his "career norms" mean .250's average,a ton of strikeouts, while also drawing alot of walks...not exactly "monster" production.

As far as this year goes...how has he done well? .199 post All Star break is beyond horrible.

It's great to be optimistic...but this is beyond a "rose colored glasses" assessment of Swisher. I think the pro-Swisher folks put way too value on his ability to draw walks and his so called "intangibles". I'd rather see a tangible batting average with RISP and a tangible ability to deliver when the heat is on in a pennant race.

guillensdisciple
09-16-2008, 05:50 PM
Even his "career norms" mean .250's average,a ton of strikeouts, while also drawing alot of walks...not exactly "monster" production.

As far as this year goes...how has he done well? .199 post All Star break is beyond horrible.

It's great to be optimistic...but this is beyond a "rose colored glasses" assessment of Swisher. I think the pro-Swisher folks put way too value on his ability to draw walks and his so called "intangibles". I'd rather see a tangible batting average with RISP and a tangible ability to deliver when the heat is on in a pennant race.

I don't think the White Sox traded enough to get an All star caliber player in Swisher. We got an above average player who will fill the 6th spot very nicely. Think about it the guy is young, has he hit his prime yet? Probably not. So all the numbers you have seen might just be the beginning and even if they are ultimately his best. That makes him a very formidable middle of the line up hitter. He is just having a down year this year. Who would you rather have, an all- star? You know Swish was the best choice the sox had after Torri ditched us for the Angels.

LJS1993
09-16-2008, 05:57 PM
Griffey has one over-the-shoulder catch and one RBI double in a Sox uniform. One.

Rip on Swisher all you want, but let's try to keep in mind just how long ago 1997 was.

Yes, so true but Griffey has done more than produce one RBI double in a Sox uniform. Nontheless, the 38 year old man has more patience at the plate, the best stroke in the game, doesn't swing recklessly like Swisher, and when it's all said and done the name Griffey will be much more remembered then Swisher.

LJS1993
09-16-2008, 06:00 PM
Stats are mostly just mental masturbation. Show me a batting average, how many doubles and HR and RBI a guy has, and then let me actually see him play and I can tell you if he is a good player. The rest of it is guys who couldn't actually play Little League because their asthma was too bad trying desperately to get into the inner circle of the game by showing off their abilities with a spreadsheet.

Nick Swisher is a decent player with room for improvement. He has a good power swing and a solid eye at the plate, but he is afraid to pull the trigger on a pitch that is not just right. If he can get over that he can become a good to very good player. If not, he will be a decent bottom of the order guy. And I can make that analysis with the square root of VORP divided by FROOGLP to the BAJHD power or whatever sort of goofy stat crap propellerheads are doing these days.

Wait, oh wait, the pencil necks are going to bring out "range factor" soon. All the guys who were too nerdy to play ball even in PE are the guys who love to pull stats out their behinds.
I concur, Swisher has tons of room for improvement. However with that ugly stroke that has no balance whatsoever, I don't believe it will occur. Like I told another member, Swisher will be bald, fat, still wearing those weak lamb chops by the time he hits 38.

areilly
09-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Yes, so true but Griffey has done more than produce one RBI double in a Sox uniform. Nontheless, the 38 year old man has more patience at the plate, the best stroke in the game, doesn't swing recklessly like Swisher, and when it's all said and done the name Griffey will be much more remembered then Swisher.

You used the plural form of RBI double and over-the-shoulder catch; that implies he's done them more than once for this team. He hasn't.

And of course the name Griffey will be much more remembered than Swisher, but what does that have to do with the fact that both are defensive liabilities and neither is half as good now as Ken Griffey Jr. once was? What does plate discipline and a sweet swing mean when the Sox' best option for a CF, apparently, is hitting .250? Griffey performed some mighty feats in his time, but I think you're letting history blind you.

areilly
09-16-2008, 08:18 PM
Wait, oh wait, the pencil necks are going to bring out "range factor" soon. All the guys who were too nerdy to play ball even in PE are the guys who love to pull stats out their behinds.
I concur, Swisher has tons of room for improvement. However with that ugly stroke that has no balance whatsoever, I don't believe it will occur. Like I told another member, Swisher will be bald, fat, still wearing those weak lamb chops by the time he hits 38.

Okay, I'll put this in terms we used when I played ball:

Griffey is too slow to effectively cover center.
Swisher doesn't as good of reads as Anderson.
Anderson doesn't have the resume of Griffey or the "intangibles" of Swisher.

And thus the Mobius strip of White Sox baseball is born. I don't know why your Griffey-love is getting in the way of seeing the player he is now. He's slow, he's heavy, he's old, he's not as good as he used to be and those things will only magnify with time. This is not a matter of opinion.

Also, your statement about the type of person who relies on stats is about as gross a misstatement as me saying the meatheads who decry stats as the devil's work are just too stupid to understand them. Neither is really the case, and for you to imply so is just...puzzling. Maybe you had a low VORP or something, I don't know.

kittle42
09-16-2008, 08:33 PM
Wait, oh wait, the pencil necks are going to bring out "range factor" soon. All the guys who were too nerdy to play ball even in PE are the guys who love to pull stats out their behinds.

This is the same argument as a player saying of a writer/broadcaster, "He's never played the game" as a reason you shouldn't listen to that person. That argument sucks.

Lefty34
09-16-2008, 10:00 PM
Nontheless, the 38 year old man has more patience at the plate, the best stroke in the game,

That's not necessarily true, considering Griffey's O-Swing % (the percentage of pitches outside the strike zone a batter swings at) is 22.42% and Swisher's is 18.95%. What is...wrong?


doesn't swing recklessly like Swisher,

Well given the above numbers, he actually swings more recklessly than Swisher.


and when it's all said and done the name Griffey will be much more remembered then Swisher.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Sure Griffey is a HOFer, but that has nothing to do with who has the better eye at the plate or who is, in fact, 38 and heavy and slow in the field.

Wait, oh wait, the pencil necks are going to bring out "range factor" soon.

I was always kind of partial to Zone Rating, myself, I think it is a little better telling than Range Factor, which is a lot more arbitrary. And since you mention it, Griffey's ZR in CF with the White Sox this year .862, wich is lower than Swisher's mark of .888.

All the guys who were too nerdy to play ball even in PE are the guys who love to pull stats out their behinds.

Wow that is a pretty big, ignorant, and moronic statement you just made right there. Are you sure you meant to say that? Cause the last time I checked, I still play Club Baseball at U of I, which is D-3 equivalent baseball. So maybe you should use your brain before you open your mouth again.


I concur, Swisher has tons of room for improvement. However with that ugly stroke that has no balance whatsoever, I don't believe it will occur. Like I told another member, Swisher will be bald, fat, still wearing those weak lamb chops by the time he hits 38.

Baseball is not about selling jeans. It's about scoring runs and, maybe just as importantly (some might say more), not making outs and getting on base. So if Swisher can still get on base at a fairly high clip when he gets older, he could be an asset.

LJS1993
09-16-2008, 10:25 PM
Well, I see today it was Griffey 2 for 5 with a run scored. Granted he had the strike outs, but nonetheless productive in the winning effort. Nice to see Konerko in place and going 2 for 4. I like Swisher's .219 BA also, very nice I see. You guys can keep it coming all you want, it makes no difference what obscure stats you choose to trump at me. Anyone who claims, as one "expert" on this forum said, Swisher is better then Griffey is smoking some major crap because that is absurd to say the least. Onward to HOF for Griffey and contributing to your clubs victory.

jabrch
09-16-2008, 10:26 PM
Gimme a T....

Lefty34
09-16-2008, 10:32 PM
Well, I see today it was Griffey 2 for 5 with a run scored. Granted he had the strike outs, but nonetheless productive in the winning effort. Nice to see Konerko in place and going 2 for 4. I like Swisher's .219 BA also, very nice I see. You guys can keep it coming all you want, it makes no difference what obscure stats you choose to trump at me. Anyone who claims, as one "expert" on this forum said, Swisher is better then Griffey is smoking some major crap because that is absurd to say the least. Onward to HOF for Griffey and contributing to your clubs victory.

Wow, I have never seen such a stumbling, bumbling attempt at an artful dodge of a counterpoint in my life. Congratulations are in order, sir, you must be one of the greats. This is just pure, un-adulterated willful ignorance.

areilly
09-16-2008, 11:18 PM
Well, I see today it was Griffey 2 for 5 with a run scored. Granted he had the strike outs, but nonetheless productive in the winning effort. Nice to see Konerko in place and going 2 for 4. I like Swisher's .219 BA also, very nice I see. You guys can keep it coming all you want, it makes no difference what obscure stats you choose to trump at me. Anyone who claims, as one "expert" on this forum said, Swisher is better then Griffey is smoking some major crap because that is absurd to say the least. Onward to HOF for Griffey and contributing to your clubs victory.

Why don't you acknowledge the points people are making to you? And if it's really only about what happened in tonight's game, shouldn't every player in all of MLB fear their impending uselessness thanks to superstud Juan Uribe and his SSBA* of 1.000? Are you really just someone's version of postmodern performance art and we've all been had?


(*) September Sixteenth Batting Average. STATISTICS BAD, ANDREW SMASH!!!

munchman33
09-16-2008, 11:37 PM
Regardless of what everyone's long term projections of Nick Swisher are, nobody should be arguing he has any place in this lineup for the rest of this season. He's had a horrible year. He's had stretches that he's looked like the worst player in baseball. And his most recent stretch makes the rest of his season seem good by comparison. If you're looking for better offense, we could throw the bat boy out there. If you're looking for better defense, it isn't like Brian could do any worse at the plate than zero.

Nellie_Fox
09-16-2008, 11:45 PM
If you're looking for better offense, we could throw the bat boy out there.Gross exaggerations, while intended to make a point, usually damage the credibility of the exaggerator. When people say thing like this, or "a little leaguer could do better" or "I could do better," I pretty much tune out whatever else they say.

Lefty34
09-17-2008, 12:05 AM
Regardless of what everyone's long term projections of Nick Swisher are, nobody should be arguing he has any place in this lineup for the rest of this season. He's had a horrible year. He's had stretches that he's looked like the worst player in baseball. And his most recent stretch makes the rest of his season seem good by comparison. If you're looking for better offense, we could throw the bat boy out there. If you're looking for better defense, it isn't like Brian could do any worse at the plate than zero.

Well in Swisher's defense, his OBP is still at the league average for the year of .335. Just saying.

Jaffar
09-17-2008, 07:55 AM
Well in Swisher's defense, his OBP is still at the league average for the year of .335. Just saying.

Since the break. .188 avg/.298 obp. Just saying.

TomBradley72
09-17-2008, 08:07 AM
Since the break. .188 avg/.298 obp. Just saying.

Exactly. I don't question Swisher's ability to be a productive contributor in 2009, etc. But for the last 12 days of the season....we have better options.

munchman33
09-17-2008, 09:01 AM
Gross exaggerations, while intended to make a point, usually damage the credibility of the exaggerator. When people say thing like this, or "a little leaguer could do better" or "I could do better," I pretty much tune out whatever else they say.

When was the last time he had a hit? I really can't remember.

Jaffar
09-17-2008, 10:29 AM
when was the last time he had a hit? I really can't remember.

9/10

DeadMoney
09-17-2008, 10:39 AM
Exactly. I don't question Swisher's ability to be a productive contributor in 2009, etc. But for the last 12 days of the season....we have better options.

Ozzie basically said the same thing here (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1167508,CST-SPT-soxnt17.article) (at the bottom).

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 10:42 AM
All I'm saying is if the line of arguments are either a) Swisher has had a down year at the plate, which is partially due to a drop in contact and partially due to significantly bad luck or b) pitchers have magically figured him out (something they were apparently unable to do in the previous 450 games Swisher appeared in), which has rendered him completely useless because he's a moron who can't make adjustments...I'll take option 'a'.

guillensdisciple
09-17-2008, 10:47 AM
All I'm saying is if the line of arguments are either a) Swisher has had a down year at the plate, which is partially due to a drop in contact and partially due to significantly bad luck or b) pitchers have magically figured him out (something they were apparently unable to do in the previous 450 games Swisher appeared in), which has rendered him completely useless because he's a moron who can't make adjustments...I'll take option 'a'.
I am going to take option A too. Just wait until next year people are going to be saying the same things about Swish as people are saying now about Uribe. That Kenny is a genius for not letting him go.

This guy is a talent, despite of how bad this year has been going.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 11:28 AM
When was the last time he had a hit? I really can't remember.You're changing the subject. You said the batboy would be an offensive improvement, and that's just nonsense.

FedEx227
09-17-2008, 11:41 AM
Exactly. I don't question Swisher's ability to be a productive contributor in 2009, etc. But for the last 12 days of the season....we have better options.

I'm a Swisher fan but I absolutely agree. He's been all-around dreadful this year. I'm in no way advocating getting rid of him though, that's just stupid. He's going to get back to his career norms next year.

For now we have Griffey innings 1-7, Anderson innings 7-9.

palehozenychicty
09-17-2008, 11:46 AM
Stats are mostly just mental masturbation. Show me a batting average, how many doubles and HR and RBI a guy has, and then let me actually see him play and I can tell you if he is a good player. The rest of it is guys who couldn't actually play Little League because their asthma was too bad trying desperately to get into the inner circle of the game by showing off their abilities with a spreadsheet.

Nick Swisher is a decent player with room for improvement. He has a good power swing and a solid eye at the plate, but he is afraid to pull the trigger on a pitch that is not just right. If he can get over that he can become a good to very good player. If not, he will be a decent bottom of the order guy. And I can make that analysis with the square root of VORP divided by FROOGLP to the BAJHD power or whatever sort of goofy stat crap propellerheads are doing these days.


Thank you. That is such an important detail. If anything, that is the adjustment he needs to make in his ABs, is to widen his zone a little and be more aggressive. I'm tired of the called strikeouts. :(:

dickallen15
09-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Since the end of June, Swisher is hitting .194 with 64 strikeouts in 201 ABs. If you're a stat guy or not a stat guy, there's no way around his awfulness.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
Since the end of June, Swisher is hitting .194 with 64 strikeouts in 201 ABs. If you're a stat guy or not a stat guy, there's no way around his awfulness.

Yes, but in how many of those strikeouts did he also take 3 balls? Value!
[/half teal]

Eddo144
09-17-2008, 02:58 PM
Yes, but in how many of those strikeouts did he also take 3 balls? Value!
[/half teal]
Why do strikeouts = bad hitter?

Here's a good way to think about this: let's say some all-knowing being told you that the next batter up for your team was going to make an out, but you get to choose in what manner. Unless there was a runner on third with less than two outs or a runner on second with no outs, I choose a strikeout. Why? It accomplishes the same thing as a flyout or groundout (except in the two situations I mentioned) and guarantees you've made the pitcher throw at least three pitches.

Now, sometimes strikeouts can be indicative of a hitter's flaw; are they in Swisher's case? Maybe. He's always been a high strikeout guy, and has had much success in the past as such.

(As an aside: I have learned to ignore any posts that use the word "propellerhead" or some crazy acronym making fun of VORP. All it shows is that the poster has no idea what they're talking about, so they result to insulting terms.

I also don't buy into VORP, necessarily. I do buy into OBP and O-Swing%.)

kittle42
09-17-2008, 03:01 PM
(As an aside: I have learned to ignore any posts that use the word "propellerhead" or some crazy acronym making fun of VORP. All it shows is that the poster has no idea what they're talking about, so they result to insulting terms.

Agreed. Insults and shouting down of people are generally the retorts of those who don't know enough to argue, or who have implicitly admitted defeat.

dickallen15
09-17-2008, 03:06 PM
Why do strikeouts = bad hitter?

Here's a good way to think about this: let's say some all-knowing being told you that the next batter up for your team was going to make an out, but you get to choose in what manner. Unless there was a runner on third with less than two outs or a runner on second with no outs, I choose a strikeout. Why? It accomplishes the same thing as a flyout or groundout (except in the two situations I mentioned) and guarantees you've made the pitcher throw at least three pitches.

Now, sometimes strikeouts can be indicative of a hitter's flaw; are they in Swisher's case? Maybe. He's always been a high strikeout guy, and has had much success in the past as such.

(As an aside: I have learned to ignore any posts that use the word "propellerhead" or some crazy acronym making fun of VORP. All it shows is that the poster has no idea what they're talking about, so they result to insulting terms.

I also don't buy into VORP, necessarily. I do buy into OBP and O-Swing%.)
Strikeouts don't necessarily mean "bad hitter". But a .219 AVG and a ton of strikeouts seem to indicate one.

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 03:14 PM
Why do strikeouts = bad hitter?



Because David Foster Wallace = good writer and may have died, and also may have died before his time.

Swisher is looking awfully awful at the plate lately. No confidence. Poor approach; poorer swing.

Pitchers have caught on to this and are not issuing walks anymore, which is hurting his OBP as well.

Can't play CF.

Then again... if Konerko could revive his season, there is still hope for Swisher. Time is now.


.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 03:33 PM
I don't think anything new has been said for the last hundred posts.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 04:05 PM
I don't think anything new has been said for the last hundred posts.

Yes, but what do you think of Nick Swisher?

munchman33
09-17-2008, 07:26 PM
You're changing the subject. You said the batboy would be an offensive improvement, and that's just nonsense.

The batboy can't go hitless with three strikeouts a day? :?: I bet he could...

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 07:28 PM
The batboy can't go hitless with three strikeouts a day? :?: I bet he could...
All I'm saying is if the line of arguments are either a) Swisher has had a down year at the plate, which is partially due to a drop in contact and partially due to significantly bad luck or b) pitchers have magically figured him out (something they were apparently unable to do in the previous 450 games Swisher appeared in), which has rendered him completely useless because he's a moron who can't make adjustments...I'll take option 'a'.

munchman33
09-17-2008, 07:31 PM
All I'm saying is if the line of arguments are either a) Swisher has had a down year at the plate, which is partially due to a drop in contact and partially due to significantly bad luck or b) pitchers have magically figured him out (something they were apparently unable to do in the previous 450 games Swisher appeared in), which has rendered him completely useless because he's a moron who can't make adjustments...I'll take option 'a'.

Perhaps it's c.) pitcher's have figured him out and he can't physically make adjustments because his plate approach was the only reason he was able to produce in the first place.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 07:37 PM
Perhaps it's c.) pitcher's have figured him out and he can't physically make adjustments because his plate approach was the only reason he was able to produce in the first place.
So it took 450 games for pitchers to get the book on him? Doubtful.

munchman33
09-17-2008, 08:49 PM
So it took 450 games for pitchers to get the book on him? Doubtful.

Well, our main difference is that you don't believe Swisher has been regressing for two years now, and I do. I don't believe either of us is going to give on that front.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 08:52 PM
The batboy can't go hitless with three strikeouts a day? :?: I bet he could...You said IMPROVEMENT.:haddock: And it is also ignorant and trolling to say that Swisher goes hitless with three strikeouts every day.

munchman33
09-17-2008, 09:04 PM
You said IMPROVEMENT.:haddock: And it is also ignorant and trolling to say that Swisher goes hitless with three strikeouts every day.

You're right, I looked it up and in the last week he's only been striking out just over once a game and picking up one hit every six games.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 09:07 PM
You're right, I looked it up and in the last week he's only been striking out just over once a game and picking up one hit every six games.Well, you've now addressed everything except the validity of your statement that the batboy would be an offensive improvement. I pointed out that hyperbole like that destroys your credibility, and your replies have each headed off in an entirely different direction.

munchman33
09-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Well, you've now addressed everything except the validity of your statement that the batboy would be an offensive improvement. I pointed out that hyperbole like that destroys your credibility, and your replies have each headed off in an entirely different direction.

Maybe the batboy walks? :shrug:

:cool:

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Well, I get home from work and see Swisher on the pine while the old man Griffey goes 2 for 3 with a walk and unfortunately a strikeout. But, no one is perfect, not even Griffey. But, for you stat wizards his OBP must be pretty good today right? Nice day, doing his job but he can't carry the club.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Maybe the batboy walks? :shrug:

:cool::whiteflag:

munchman33
09-17-2008, 09:12 PM
:whiteflag:
Haha...you know I didn't really mean to throw the batboy out there right? I'm just saying that as bad as Swisher is right now, we'd be better off even putting in minor leaguers. The guy isn't hitting anything at all right now.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 09:14 PM
Oh, and you stat wizards who never made it past the first cut in high school. Did Griffey's "range factor" effect the outcome of this game? :cool: :tongue:

FedEx227
09-17-2008, 09:15 PM
Well, I get home from work and see Swisher on the pine while the old man Griffey goes 2 for 3 with a walk and unfortunately a strikeout. But, no one is perfect, not even Griffey. But, for you stat wizards his OBP must be pretty good today right? Nice day, doing his job but he can't carry the club.

Yeah, after long hours of calculation I've found his OBP today was .750.

I'm a stat wizard, what can I say. I sit in my lair and come out with outrageously tough equations like:

Times On Base (whether hit, walk, HBP)

Divided By

Total At-Bats (AB + BB + HBP + SF)

Really tough.

Oooh...oooh... watch this. Griffey this year has an OBP with the Sox of .325, while Baby Eater Swisher has an OBP of .333.

FedEx227
09-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Oh, and you stat wizards who never made it past the first cut in high school. Did Griffey's "range factor" effect the outcome of this game? :cool: :tongue:

Exactly right. Nobody who employs stats watch or play the game at all. Man you're smart.

I get scared when I see a baseball. I can't even catch the thing because I'm too busy looking at a spreadsheet over at SS. It's crazy.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 09:24 PM
Oh, and you stat wizards who never made it past the first cut in high school. Did Griffey's "range factor" effect the outcome of this game? :cool: :tongue:
I actually never played baseball past the fourth grade. I was good, but golf was my first love.

Then I began to read up on statistical analysis when I was in high school and fell in love with the game. I'd always loved the White Sox, but my love grew when I delved deep into stats/sabermetrics.

Your insecurity about Griffey is truly hilarious. I understand he went 2 for 3, that's great, honestly. But if you think he's adequate in CF -- you're in a world of trouble. You might as well put a picnic table at 2b and a yeti at SS.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 09:28 PM
I actually never played baseball past the fourth grade. I was good, but golf was my first love.

Then I began to read up on statistical analysis when I was in high school and fell in love with the game. I'd always loved the White Sox, but my love grew when I delved deep into stats/sabermetrics.

Your insecurity about Griffey is truly hilarious. I understand he went 2 for 3, that's great, honestly. But if you think he's adequate in CF -- you're in a world of trouble. You might as well put a picnic table at 2b and a yeti at SS.

Well finally someone on this board who admits they never had the ability to play the game past Bronco league. Either way, Swisher is a joke, and Griffey has shown he's more than adequate at center. He hasn't cost you guys a single game and has played rather well. Go back to your stats poindexter.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 09:30 PM
Well finally someone on this board who admits they never had the ability to play the game past Bronco league. Either way, Swisher is a joke, and Griffey has shown he's more than adequate at center. He hasn't cost you guys a single game and has played rather well. Go back to your stats poindexter.

I'm now convinced you are trolling as schtick. I do find the act amusing, though.

FedEx227
09-17-2008, 09:34 PM
I'm now convinced you are trolling as schtick.

Yeah, it's definitely gotten to that point. It really stopped being funny about 15 posts ago.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 09:34 PM
You know, many of you guys on this board, and many baseball fans in general, remind me of that sports writer on "The Natural". He never had a sniff of the game himself, yet he felt like he knew it all and was such a stalwart of the sport. It's sad that the game has been tarnished by the type.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 09:36 PM
Yeah, it's definitely gotten to that point. It really stopped being funny about 15 posts ago.

I dunno. I'm still getting a kick out of everyone else buying into it.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Well finally someone on this board who admits they never had the ability to play the game past Bronco league. Either way, Swisher is a joke, and Griffey has shown he's more than adequate at center. He hasn't cost you guys a single game and has played rather well. Go back to your stats poindexter.
Sweet insult, brah. My ability to play baseball and understand it are two completely different things. But, y'know, if you want to stick with this archaic philosophy that one must do something to understand it (past a certain age, I suppose...), go for it.

Griffey's actually been pretty terrible for us thus far. .240/.325/.340 line coming into tonight.

I don't know if anyone's asked you this yet, but...are you a White Sox fan? Otherwise, why the hell are you here?

FedEx227
09-17-2008, 09:58 PM
Sweet insult, brah. My ability to play baseball and understand it are two completely different things. But, y'know, if you want to stick with this archaic philosophy that one must do something to understand it (past a certain age, I suppose...), go for it.

Griffey's actually been pretty terrible for us thus far. .240/.325/.340 line coming into tonight.

I don't know if anyone's asked you this yet, but...are you a White Sox fan? Otherwise, why the hell are you here?

Well by his definition, to speak about baseball and it's players he has to be a 10-year MLB veteran.

My guess? http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngjo02.shtml

http://images.amazinavenue.com/images/user/3/aa_joel_youngblood_01.jpg

Well that or a 15-year old Reds fan. One or the other.

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 10:21 PM
and Griffey has shown he's more than adequate at center..

No, he hasn't. He's easily one of the worst defensive CF in the game.... and is a huge health risk any time he takes the field, to boot.

Then again, unlike Swisher, at least Griffey isn't terrified of coming through with a base-hit w. RISP.... especially if we're talking about games that aren't played at USCF this year.

So it all evens out in the end, I guess. :bandance:

.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 10:29 PM
No, he hasn't. He's easily one of the worst defensive CF in the game.... and is a huge health risk any time he takes the field, to boot.

Then again, unlike Swisher, at least Griffey isn't terrified of coming through with a base-hit w. RISP.... especially if we're talking about games that aren't played at USCF this year.

So it all evens out in the end, I guess. :bandance:

.

Yes, he's cost you many victories in center so far. The more I think about it, the more I realize how ugly Swisher's game is. But, it fits the knowledge base of many of those on this board, not all, but many.

Lefty34
09-17-2008, 10:29 PM
Well by his definition, to speak about baseball and it's players he has to be a 10-year MLB veteran.

My guess? http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngjo02.shtml

http://images.amazinavenue.com/images/user/3/aa_joel_youngblood_01.jpg

Well that or a 15-year old Reds fan. One or the other.

No no no, dude, he has to be someone way scrappier, older and thus, more ignorant. I'm putting my money on Luis "Tickle Me" Olmo (http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/olmolu01.shtml).

kittle42
09-17-2008, 10:45 PM
Yes, he's cost you many victories in center so far. The more I think about it, the more I realize how ugly Swisher's game is. But, it fits the knowledge base of many of those on this board, not all, but many.

Ahh, so I still think it's schtick, but you also may be a fan of some other team who has come here to troll. A Reds fan? Is it difficult to see the keyboard through the paper bag you wear over your head?

jabrch
09-17-2008, 10:46 PM
Gimme an R....

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 10:48 PM
Ahh, so I still think it's schtick, but you also may be a fan of some other team who has come here to troll. A Reds fan?

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/pokeystockman/monty_python_witch-701441.jpg

"Burn her!"




.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Ahh, so I still think it's schtick, but you also may be a fan of some other team who has come here to troll. A Reds fan? Is it difficult to see the keyboard through the paper bag you wear over your head?

No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as Griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on Griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the CF he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.

Konerko05
09-17-2008, 10:54 PM
No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as Griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on Griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the CF he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.

Yeah, everyone heard you the first 66 posts. Go away.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 11:08 PM
No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as Griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on Griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the CF he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.

Shtick. It's going to get old, though - like "Take my wife, please!"

It is also possible he is Ken Griffey, Sr. Or maybe Junior's high school coach.

It may also be Stan Gable, who is still fuming that Louis Skolnick stole Betty Childs from him back in his Adams College days.

LJS1993
09-17-2008, 11:33 PM
Shtick. It's going to get old, though - like "Take my wife, please!"

It is also possible he is Ken Griffey, Sr. Or maybe Junior's high school coach.

It may also be Stan Gable, who is still fuming that Louis Skolnick stole Betty Childs from him back in his Adams College days.

No, just someone who has knowledge beyond getting a woodie for Swisher and being blinded by a lack of overall knowledge which extends beyond obscure stats.

kittle42
09-17-2008, 11:39 PM
No, just someone who has knowledge beyond getting a woodie for Swisher and being blinded by a lack of overall knowledge which extends beyond obscure stats.

Yes, but why come to this site?

Adele_H
09-17-2008, 11:42 PM
No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as Griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on Griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the CF he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.

I don't think Griffey is Hall-of-Fame material.

Lacks the credentials and bona-fides.

Wearing the hat backwards alone warrants an asterisk.

jabrch
09-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Gimme an O....

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2008, 11:56 PM
Oh, and you stat wizards who never made it past the first cut in high school. Did Griffey's "range factor" effect the outcome of this game? :cool: :tongue:

Well finally someone on this board who admits they never had the ability to play the game past Bronco league. Either way, Swisher is a joke, and Griffey has shown he's more than adequate at center. He hasn't cost you guys a single game and has played rather well. Go back to your stats poindexter.

Enough with the "if you didn't play the game past tee-ball, you are a loser" posts. Seriously. Enough.

You have made it clear by the "you" and "your team" comments that you are not a Sox fan. Coupling that with your clear attempts to aggravate other posters, you are a troll. I am through warning you. You are about to get bounced.

Lefty34
09-17-2008, 11:59 PM
No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as Griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on Griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the CF he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.

Well we all have our hate/love of stats, but I think I have been one of the people most throwing out those obscure "stats", but I also am still playing collegiate baseball. So Shtick-it (lolz).

Eddo144
09-18-2008, 08:10 AM
No, just someone who has knowledge beyond getting a woodie for Swisher and being blinded by a lack of overall knowledge which extends beyond obscure stats.
The only people here with a "woodie" for anyone are you for Griffey and munchman for every single-A pitcher.

While I never played collegiate ball like Lefty, I did play up until college. I also never cared for Swisher when he first came up for Oakland, but as I grew to understand what correlates with scoring runs (OBP, OBP, OBP), I began to see the value in players like Swisher, Cust, Dunn, etc. When the Sox traded for him, I was happy.

He's had a poor year. He's playing terribly right now. However, he has a track record (a career OBP over .360 until this year and good home run numbers in a huge pitchers' park in Oakland). I'm very confident he'll bounce back.

As far as pitchers figuring him out goes, I don't think that's the case. Because he so rarely swings at bad pitches (as cited above by Lefty and me, he is 22nd best in baseball in O-Swing%), a pitcher has to throw an "out pitch" in the zone to get him out. Hitters like him drove me crazy as a pitcher, because they don't swing at the pitches you want them too.

Now, Alexei Ramirez, for example, is the kind of hitter that pitchers figure out. As you as I would realize someone like him would swing at any pitch that's close, I'd throw him a nice rising fastball up in the zone to start off the at bat, getting him to hit a harmless pop-up. (But he wouldn't have struck out, so I guess that's a good out, right?)

Craig Grebeck
09-18-2008, 08:12 AM
no, i'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply. Fact is simple, especially today. Griffey worked the counts, got his pitch, and was productive save for his strikeout. Cabrera did well also, so props to him. But the rest, dear lord, ted williams, tony gwynn, and other true greats would be pacing the dugout after seeing the cuts they saw today. The old man does the job, but the guys who don't have as much talent as griffey has/had on his &##@ couldn't do the job. What's amazing is that many posters on this board talk their smack on griffey's game, yet the guy is doing just fine. The home runs will come, it's no big deal. Yes, he's not the cf he was in the past, but he is far from inadequate and has played rather well. Has he cost your club a game? Nope. Ah, it's entertaining seeing you guys and your love of stats since it's obvious and admitted that many of you were absolute tools when attempting to actually play the game.
.257/.333/.358

TomBradley72
09-18-2008, 08:43 AM
The only people here with a "woodie" for anyone are you for Griffey and munchman for every single-A pitcher.

While I never played collegiate ball like Lefty, I did play up until college. I also never cared for Swisher when he first came up for Oakland, but as I grew to understand what correlates with scoring runs (OBP, OBP, OBP), I began to see the value in players like Swisher, Cust, Dunn, etc. When the Sox traded for him, I was happy.

He's had a poor year. He's playing terribly right now. However, he has a track record (a career OBP over .360 until this year and good home run numbers in a huge pitchers' park in Oakland). I'm very confident he'll bounce back.

As far as pitchers figuring him out goes, I don't think that's the case. Because he so rarely swings at bad pitches (as cited above by Lefty and me, he is 22nd best in baseball in O-Swing%), a pitcher has to throw an "out pitch" in the zone to get him out. Hitters like him drove me crazy as a pitcher, because they don't swing at the pitches you want them too.

Now, Alexei Ramirez, for example, is the kind of hitter that pitchers figure out. As you as I would realize someone like him would swing at any pitch that's close, I'd throw him a nice rising fastball up in the zone to start off the at bat, getting him to hit a harmless pop-up. (But he wouldn't have struck out, so I guess that's a good out, right?)

Any argument that somehow comes to the conclusion that Swisher is better than Ramirez is a ridiculuous argument.

Eddo144
09-18-2008, 09:42 AM
Any argument that somehow comes to the conclusion that Swisher is better than Ramirez is a ridiculuous argument.
Strawman alert! Did I say Swisher is better than Ramirez? He's not, at least not this year. I took one facet of munch's argument and countered it.

It's true that Alexei is the kind of hitter than pitchers figure out. This is even supported anecdotally, in fact. How many times have you seen him hit into a weak out because he swung at an awful first pitch? It's also supported with hard evidence. Go to this page (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=ramiral03&t=b&year=2008) and look at how Alexei's numbers have been trending downward over the past month or so.

Alexei's been phenomenal, and with Longoria out, the likely AL rookie of the year, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have aspects of his game to work on.

(Also, even this year, in which Swisher is having a terrible year and Ramirez is having his coming out party, Swisher still makes outs at a lower rate than Alexei. Ramirez makes an out 68.0% of the time, Swisher 66.7% of the time.)

Craig Grebeck
09-18-2008, 09:43 AM
Strawman alert! Did I say Swisher is better than Ramirez? He's not, at least not this year. I took one facet of munch's argument and countered it.

It's true that Alexei is the kind of hitter than pitchers figure out. This is even supported anecdotally, in fact. How many times have you seen him hit into a weak out because he swung at an awful first pitch? It's also supported with hard evidence. Go to this page (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=ramiral03&t=b&year=2008) and look at how Alexei's numbers have been trending downward over the past month or so.

Alexei's been phenomenal, and with Longoria out, the likely AL rookie of the year, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have aspects of his game to work on.

(Also, even this year, in which Swisher is having a terrible year and Ramirez is having his coming out party, Swisher still makes outs at a lower rate than Alexei. Ramirez makes an out 68.0% of the time, Swisher 66.7% of the time.)
Longoria could have been hit by a bus in August and he'd still win. He's eons better than Alexei this season.

Eddo144
09-18-2008, 10:33 AM
Longoria could have been hit by a bus in August and he'd still win. He's eons better than Alexei this season.
I didn't say Ramirez was better than Longoria, just that he was now likely to win. By the time Joe Morgan is pushing for something, everyone has likely thought of it already.

This doesn't make it right, but I'd say Ramirez is a slight favorite over Longoria right now.

TomBradley72
09-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Strawman alert! Did I say Swisher is better than Ramirez? He's not, at least not this year. I took one facet of munch's argument and countered it.

It's true that Alexei is the kind of hitter than pitchers figure out. This is even supported anecdotally, in fact. How many times have you seen him hit into a weak out because he swung at an awful first pitch? It's also supported with hard evidence. Go to this page (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=ramiral03&t=b&year=2008) and look at how Alexei's numbers have been trending downward over the past month or so.

Alexei's been phenomenal, and with Longoria out, the likely AL rookie of the year, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have aspects of his game to work on.

(Also, even this year, in which Swisher is having a terrible year and Ramirez is having his coming out party, Swisher still makes outs at a lower rate than Alexei. Ramirez makes an out 68.0% of the time, Swisher 66.7% of the time.)

But Alexei also adjusts to their adjustments....which as he gains experience..will start to move to his advantage. The numbers are trending downward...I attribute that to no acceptable back up 2nd baseman since Uribe had to move to 3rd and Getz went down. Iguchi in 2005 had the luxury of plenty of rest....Ozzie hasn't had that option with Ramirez...and he's running on fumes right now.

Everyone can keep showering the discussion with OBP stats and pitch count stats. But when a veteran hits <.200 for an entire half in the middle of a close pennant race...that stat trumps all the OBP, pitch count, VORP stuff in the world. Swisher would be a decent LF on a roster (but we have Quentin)...and his historic production of >.250's batting average with lots of walks and lots of strike outs is below what we can get in RF or 1B. And his defense in CF is mediocre to average. I hope we find someone to take him off our hands in the offseason.

areilly
09-18-2008, 11:20 AM
No, I'm just a baseball fan who isn't going to let a few pencil necked poindexters go off on their "stats" without a reply.

1) You put "stats" in quotes, as though it were merely a hyperbolic word, and that there was no such thing as measuring what a player has done, or what they typically will do. Griffey went 2-for-3 last night; that's a stat. Griffey has 609 home runs; also a stat. Griffey's hitting .257 this year; yet another stat.

2) Have you ever made a movie? Been in office? Been a cop? Written a song? Built a house? Designed a car? If not, I hope you're not pointing out faults in them, lest you become just another ****-talking tool.

3) I find it funny you talk so much about how people who use numbers fail to give a reply to you, yet you won't say anything back to a single person who questions your motives or finds flaws in your line of reasoning.

4) Most importantly, let's hear this great baseball experience of yours. A lot of us used to play, but I'm curious to hear how your failure of a baseball career is somehow more valid than mine.

FedEx227
09-18-2008, 12:34 PM
4) Most importantly, let's hear this great baseball experience of yours. A lot of us used to play, but I'm curious to hear how your failure of a baseball career is somehow more valid than mine.

You will NEVER speak to Cal McLish like that!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/cal_mclish_autograph.jpg

kittle42
09-18-2008, 01:12 PM
1) You put "stats" in quotes, as though it were merely a hyperbolic word, and that there was no such thing as measuring what a player has done, or what they typically will do. Griffey went 2-for-3 last night; that's a stat. Griffey has 609 home runs; also a stat. Griffey's hitting .257 this year; yet another stat.

2) Have you ever made a movie? Been in office? Been a cop? Written a song? Built a house? Designed a car? If not, I hope you're not pointing out faults in them, lest you become just another ****-talking tool.

3) I find it funny you talk so much about how people who use numbers fail to give a reply to you, yet you won't say anything back to a single person who questions your motives or finds flaws in your line of reasoning.

4) Most importantly, let's hear this great baseball experience of yours. A lot of us used to play, but I'm curious to hear how your failure of a baseball career is somehow more valid than mine.

You're obviously nothing more than a pencilnecked stat geek pencil pusher.

FedEx227
09-18-2008, 01:14 PM
You're obviously nothing more than a pencilnecked stat geek pencil pusher.
http://graphics.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/18/1192758847_4167/410w.jpg

"Swisher sux"

Nellie_Fox
09-18-2008, 01:20 PM
http://graphics.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/18/1192758847_4167/410w.jpg

"Swisher sux"Stay classy, Freddie Blassy!

Lefty34
09-18-2008, 01:53 PM
You will NEVER speak to Cal McLish like that!



How dare you confuse Cal McLish with Harry "Larry" Byrd (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/byrdha01.shtml)? I must say good day to you, sir.

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 02:08 PM
It's true that Alexei is the kind of hitter than pitchers figure out.

Not really. He's slumping because it seems he's fallen in love with a HR lately and is trying to pull too many pitches on the outer-half of the plate, as Sox have been playing him in the 5-6 hole expecting RBI.

Alexei is a smart guy. He'll adjust sooner than later.

If anything, Nick Swisher is the guy pitchers are starting to figure out a little. They aren't afraid anymore and aren't walking him at a very high rate like they were earlier in the year.

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 02:19 PM
You will NEVER speak to Cal McLish like that!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/cal_mclish_autograph.jpg

^^^ That's one handsome fella right there.



http://eastwindupchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/6e_1.jpg

"The heil you say. He aint as purty as me."






.

Nellie_Fox
09-18-2008, 02:47 PM
^^^ That's one handsome fella right there.



http://eastwindupchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/6e_1.jpg

"The heil you say. He aint as purty as me."
http://paulkatcher.com/images/randy_johnson.jpg

You both pale in comparison to my beauty!

Adele_H
09-18-2008, 03:04 PM
http://paulkatcher.com/images/randy_johnson.jpg

You both pale in comparison to my beauty!

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/not-elephantman-431x300.jpg

"Pfff... amateurs."


.

Lefty34
09-18-2008, 03:45 PM
http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/fasano_1727.jpg

So who's bringing the beer to this beautiful people party?

Paulwny
09-19-2008, 12:03 PM
Was Swisher in the dugout last night ? When Oz decided the game was over and made all the changes I was surprised that Swisher didn't replace Konerko. It has me wondering.

kittle42
09-19-2008, 12:11 PM
Did we lose the troll is a better question.