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View Full Version : Metal bat ordinance proposed for Chicago


Luke
09-10-2008, 01:01 PM
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2008/09/alderman-wants.html

Personally I think they would be better off regulating the drops of metal bats as opposed to an outright ban. I think everyone prefers the sounds of wood, but for some leagues the cost of wood bats might spell their end.

PatK
09-10-2008, 03:58 PM
I thought the amount of drop is already regulated. I know that in high school, at least in Indiana, it is.

I know kids that couldn't use the same bat they used in Babe Ruth in high school because of the drop.

Personally, I think the barrel size should be restricted. Big barrel bats are ridiculous.

Law11
09-10-2008, 04:04 PM
The cost will either kill leagues all together or limit the amount of teams once parents have to fit the bill for increases in league enrollment costs.

even as a kid I broke many wood bats. At the higher levels the replacement ratio would be ridiculous.

I agree the drop needs to be evaluated on the metal bats. That would solve a lot of the issue.

turners56
09-10-2008, 04:23 PM
This isn't such a bad idea, considering I've hit kids in the forehead before. :(: I didn't hurt anybody badly, but the thought of it makes me shiver. The only problem with this is, is that the parents will have to give up a lot of money on those registration fees so their kids can have wooden bats.

doublem23
09-10-2008, 04:46 PM
They should just play Wii Baseball.

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2008, 04:50 PM
This isn't such a bad idea, considering I've hit kids in the forehead before. :(: I didn't hurt anybody badly, but the thought of it makes me shiver. The only problem with this is, is that the parents will have to give up a lot of money on those registration fees so their kids can have wooden bats.How did Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth League, Legion Ball, etc. all survive back in the 50's and 60's when there were no aluminum bats? Registration fees were not unreasonable, and they gave out real baseball uniforms, not t-shirts, while managing to use wooden bats.

Local businesses sponsored the teams, and you played for Hennebry Chevrolet, not the Pirates.

turners56
09-10-2008, 04:51 PM
They should just play Wii Baseball.

You might have to replace some broken LCD TVs then.

Like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-5qQq-hkSg)one...

Luke
09-10-2008, 05:15 PM
How did Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth League, Legion Ball, etc. all survive back in the 50's and 60's when there were no aluminum bats? Registration fees were not unreasonable, and they gave out real baseball uniforms, not t-shirts, while managing to use wooden bats.

Local businesses sponsored the teams, and you played for Hennebry Chevrolet, not the Pirates.

I assume because increases in equipment and insurance costs have far exceeded the rate of inflation.

I think this needs to be examined very carefully. Is the goal to eliminate all injuries? If so, they're going to be very, very disappointed.

If the point is that metal bats pose a greater risk, they better do a lot of homework because there's research that supports either side.

Lefty34
09-10-2008, 05:25 PM
Well I'm sure that do-gooders everywhere will be foaming at the mouth to support this ordinance in this society's frivolous and all-out dumb quest to "save the children" (Carlin used to do great bits on this crap, and he was right too). And although I cannot say definitively where I am on either side of this debate, I know that I am against Big Brother ordinances and laws like this. There is nothing strictly un-Constitutional about this proposed act, but I mean, come on, what's next?

And as for all these "studies" cited by the Alderman: who was swinging these bats? What kind of bats were they (the flexibe shaft or shell type)? How hard were the pitches being thrown? How old were the people partaking in the test? Were there multiple particpapants? These are all questions that need to be answered before anyone should put their eggs into the basket of this ordinance. But when you get down to it, I just hate it when the government tries to stick its nose in every little nook and cranny of your life, and you have a substantial portion of the moronic public jumping on the bandwagon without asking any questions at all. "Save the children" give me a break.

Side note: I think that metal bats should be outlawed in college baseball (not by the government, of course). Thoughts?

Luke
09-10-2008, 05:36 PM
without asking any questions at all. "Save the children" give me a break.

Side note: I think that metal bats should be outlawed in college baseball (not by the government, of course). Thoughts?

I think a lot of players would prefer that as well. I know a lot struggle with wood bats in the summer leagues and once they go pro.

Domeshot17
09-10-2008, 05:44 PM
Stupid Idea, nothing else need be said. They do regulate the drops in High School, all metal bats have to be -3 or less and have the proper regulation stamp on the bat. IHSA umpires are supposed to inspect the bats before each game. Using an illegal bat an get both the player and coach tossed.

This is just another case of people freaking out for no reason. This is all fine and good until some kid takes the wrong end of a broken bat to the body. Its sports, kids get hurt, teenagers get hurt, Adults get hurt.

Luke
09-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Stupid Idea, nothing else need be said. They do regulate the drops in High School, all metal bats have to be -3 or less and have the proper regulation stamp on the bat. IHSA umpires are supposed to inspect the bats before each game. Using an illegal bat an get both the player and coach tossed.

This is just another case of people freaking out for no reason. This is all fine and good until some kid takes the wrong end of a broken bat to the body. Its sports, kids get hurt, teenagers get hurt, Adults get hurt.

Right, I should have said decrease the drop rather than regulate it.

Domeshot17
09-10-2008, 05:53 PM
I think a lot of players would prefer that as well. I know a lot struggle with wood bats in the summer leagues and once they go pro.

It will never happen. (1) College Baseball programs do not make money like College Football teams. The only real income most get is through sponsorships by bat and glove companies. You ban the metal bat in college baseball you kill a ton of d2 and d3 programs. (2) something like 3% of College Baseball players go on to player major league ball. You don't change the rules for that small of a minority. (3) For most hitters, there is no preference between Wood and Metal. My college team was like most, Wood in the Fall and Metal in the Spring. (4) Where do we stop the stupid regulations? Only D1? Do you cover all NCAA including d2 and d3? What about JUCO and NAIA? How about non competitive club sports? Intramural? Not to call anyone out, but don't make ignorant assumptions without knowing the facts.

Lefty34
09-10-2008, 06:26 PM
It will never happen. (1) College Baseball programs do not make money like College Football teams. The only real income most get is through sponsorships by bat and glove companies. You ban the metal bat in college baseball you kill a ton of d2 and d3 programs. (2) something like 3% of College Baseball players go on to player major league ball. You don't change the rules for that small of a minority. (3) For most hitters, there is no preference between Wood and Metal. My college team was like most, Wood in the Fall and Metal in the Spring. (4) Where do we stop the stupid regulations? Only D1? Do you cover all NCAA including d2 and d3? What about JUCO and NAIA? How about non competitive club sports? Intramural? Not to call anyone out, but don't make ignorant assumptions without knowing the facts.

(1): Don't Louisville Slugger, DeMarini, etc. have successful wooden bat lines? The money won't be the same, but there have to be other wooden bat companies that would love to get their name out there by sponsoring a program. And unless you know the spending allotment for those "ton" of D2 and D3 programs, you can't say with much certainty that it would, in fact, kill a "ton" of them.

(2): And for the 97% that don't (suspect number) they are probably playing because they want to go pro, have a scholarship and want the education or love the game. So the change from metal to wood wouldn't really affect them much unless they have some vested interest in their program using metal bats.

(3): That' supposed to be a fact? Are you prepared to speak on the behalf of most or all of collegiate baseball players? And if you are indeed right, then there would be no reason not to make the switch, and your second "fact" is rendered useless.

(4): The regulations stop where the governing bodies say they do. If the NCAA decides to switch, then it would probably apply to all the teams and divisions it covers. If the NCBA wants to make the switch to wood (it would help me out a lot) then it would apply to the teams that it governs. Besides, that's more of a rhetorical question than a fact.

"Facts": 0, Lefty: 1

Domeshot17
09-10-2008, 07:48 PM
(1): Don't Louisville Slugger, DeMarini, etc. have successful wooden bat lines? The money won't be the same, but there have to be other wooden bat companies that would love to get their name out there by sponsoring a program. And unless you know the spending allotment for those "ton" of D2 and D3 programs, you can't say with much certainty that it would, in fact, kill a "ton" of them.

(2): And for the 97% that don't (suspect number) they are probably playing because they want to go pro, have a scholarship and want the education or love the game. So the change from metal to wood wouldn't really affect them much unless they have some vested interest in their program using metal bats.

(3): That' supposed to be a fact? Are you prepared to speak on the behalf of most or all of collegiate baseball players? And if you are indeed right, then there would be no reason not to make the switch, and your second "fact" is rendered useless.

(4): The regulations stop where the governing bodies say they do. If the NCAA decides to switch, then it would probably apply to all the teams and divisions it covers. If the NCBA wants to make the switch to wood (it would help me out a lot) then it would apply to the teams that it governs. Besides, that's more of a rhetorical question than a fact.

"Facts": 0, Lefty: 1

Do not understand the economics of College Baseball? We will use Rawlings for example. They launched their metal bat line (competitive play high school and college) about 9 years ago or so. Their bats sell for 200 bucks, but say Colleges are sponsored and cut deals that if they buy one for every hitter they get the bat for 100 bucks. Now lets say the same deal is made for Wooden Bats, half priced. A good Wood bat will cost you 80 bucks (you can't play College baseball with a 30 buck Big Stick). So it is 40 to the team. If a kid breaks 2 that team is now down money. Ive seen Wood Bats used in fall leagues and they break a lot at the college level for 3 reasons (1) Temperature outside (2) To play at any college level you have to throw about 85 which will break a bat and (3) A lot of collegiate level players don't know how to swing a wood bat. I know thats a goofy statement, but you don't hit with Wood and Metal the same, and when you dont know the little nuances of Wood Bats you Break and Chip them much easier.

In terms of spending alotment, it is next to nothing. You think D1 football players pay their travel for bowl games? no chance. However, d1-d3, most colleges (non powerhouse like USC-SC-Miami-Oregon) require players to do a ton of fundraising for spring training trips if you want to go to the likes of a Gene Cusic Collegiate Classic In Florida. It is usually over $2000 a player. I have been through it, have known and played with a lot of players at a lot of colleges, and like I said, non powerhouse, its not much at all. They live on deals from companies. Some Schools even have a no compete clause that if you are sponsored by Rawlings and they have a contract to provide all of the gloves for the team if a pitcher has on a Nike Glove the school can be in deep (not all but some). Going to all wood would devastate d2 and d3 programs

(2) You are right my math was a little off. It is actually closer to 93.5% that don't get drafted. 50 rounds with teams not taking all guys but comp rounds lets say 1500 kids a year draft drafted. Out of those 1500 lets say 900 are college and 600 high school (didn't look it up, but numbers seem fair). If there are roughly 350 NCAA schools (d1-d3) and NAIA included, and each team carries an average of 40 players thats 14000 college baseball players. Hell, even if I gave you EVERY PICK WAS A COLLEGE PLAYER and 1500 of the 14000 players were drafted its still 90% that are not.

The original poster said you have to go to wood because kids struggle when they get to the pros. My point was a fact, changing to wood bats so 3-10% of the population can benefit is not a reason for change.

In terms of scholarship, its a moot point because d3 can't offer. Most kids play in college with the dream of a 10 year old of getting drafted with the common sense that they do it because they love the game while they get an education. They are talented beyond most of their peers but not enough to make it. But if you want to get into it, just go back to the money. Less Sponsorship money plus more cost= less money for scholarships on the higher levels

Nothing else matters really beyond point 1. Its all about $$$$$. Colleges and College players don't have the funds to keep purchasing Wood Bats. It would also really hurt a lot of Collegiate Summer leagues. Part of the draw to go play in a Cape Cod or Georgia Collegiate Summer or any other summer program is to see how you measure up with a Wood Bat against some of the games top college players. Going to all wood regular season whipes a lot of that out as a ton of scouts wouldn't need to see how a Gordon Beckham or Justin Smoak do with a Wood Bat in the summer if they have watched it all spring.

Luke
09-11-2008, 10:40 AM
Not to call anyone out, but don't make ignorant assumptions without knowing the facts.

Sorry for being so ignorant

Domeshot17
09-11-2008, 11:29 AM
Sorry for being so ignorant

I apologize for wording this wrong, it is just one of my hot buttons that a lot of people don't get if they haven't witnessed it. I wasn't calling you out, but saying this thread had a lot of ignorant statements in general, not by any one poster. Metal Bats and the companies that make them bring the majority of the revenue stream to college baseball programs, and getting away from that could really hurt.

Luke
09-11-2008, 11:59 AM
I apologize for wording this wrong, it is just one of my hot buttons that a lot of people don't get if they haven't witnessed it. I wasn't calling you out, but saying this thread had a lot of ignorant statements in general, not by any one poster. Metal Bats and the companies that make them bring the majority of the revenue stream to college baseball programs, and getting away from that could really hurt.

Fair enough.

I agree on most of the points actually. I think eventually though that metal bats will become a PR thing more than anything else.

I think metal bats have unfairly been vilified. Does wood sound and look better? Of course. Is there anyway wood can be made more affordable? It would be a stretch. Would going to all wood eliminate injuries from batted balls? Of course not. Unless you use safety balls and put infielders in catcher's gear, people will get hurt.

In college, baseball is just not a revenue sport, so yeah, the current economics would allow only a handful of the "sexiest" teams (Miami, Fullerton, Texas) to not take a big hit on wood bats. That being said, it could be made to happen, but it would take major cooperation from that bat companies. Let's not kid ourselves though, they make a much better profit margin on metal bats than they do on wood, so I wouldn't count on seeing that anytime soon. Well, except from maybe Mizuno, who got out of the metal bat market and now only makes wood.

pythons007
09-11-2008, 01:13 PM
Well to get back to the actual topic. Metal bats don't kill kids, guns kill kids! I think it is a complete crock of **** that we have retards like this saying it endangers our kids.

Why don't we look at all the metal fork injuries, this should be the next topic that needs to be taken down. We need WOODEN FORKS, DAMNIT!

Mod edit: A lot of WSI users are highly offended by the use of this word. Consider yourself warned.

LoveYourSuit
09-11-2008, 02:58 PM
It's about time they all go wood. As for the cost, it's not like baseball is even played in poor urban areas anymore. Kids playing baseball these days usually come from a middle class family. For public league kids in the city, those are the schools that will need to hold additional fund raisers and work with sponsors to fund the added expenses.

UofCSoxFan
09-11-2008, 03:41 PM
For people saying the costs would be prohibitive, have you bought a metal bat in the last 5 yeas??? A top of the line TPX of Easton will run you about $400 bucks. On the other hand you can get a composite wood bat THAT WILL NOT BREAK AND IS OFTEN GUARANTEED FOR OVER A YEAR for a little over $100.

Metal bats were invented originally so you wouldn't have to buy 10 to 15 wood bats a year. You can now survive a season with 1 composite wood bat. People don't want to switch back because they like hitting the ball far. Metal bats aslo allow bad hitters to mask a lot of their flaws that would be exposed with wood.

Add in the fact that TPX and Easton are really the only good metal bat makers but plenty of companies make good composite bats and you definitely have a special interest factor slowing down a ban on metal bats.

This would present an interesting issue if it was extended all the way up to high school. Some conferences, such as the East Suburban Catholic Conference have both city and suburban teams and depending where the game was played could drastically alter the outcome.

For the record I'm 100% for wood bats.