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View Full Version : *Official* The White Sox Bunting Clinic Postgame Thread


SoxSpeed22
09-09-2008, 04:14 PM
The title says it all. Just win tonight.

illini81887
09-09-2008, 04:15 PM
No more bunting

Evman5
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
what the hell....awful fundamentals

DeadMoney
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Shouldn't be bunting anyway. Not when the team had 2 hits.

stl_sox_fan
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Nice stat. 2 hits but 8 left on base.

Lace 'em up again boys!

wxkid23
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Very Very ugly game....

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
That was embarrassing.

Nice game, Javy.

turners56
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
WOW. This is looking like that series earlier in the season where we couldn't buy a run.

One thing about Alexei's at bat...

Ryan got a gift strike on the second pitch, that completely changed that AB.

Ozzie better tell these guys something about fundamentals.

BTW, what's our record after off-days? It always seems like this team just plays bad after we get a day off.

Blueprint1
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Let's hope the bat's wake up some time today.

kittle42
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
May as well play the AAAers tonight - it's not like the MLBers could get a ****ing hit.

kevingrt
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
The Sox should look up execution in the dictionary and either execute themselves or an offensive play.

soltrain21
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Watching this team fail on a bunt is like watching Memphis constantly miss free throws last year.

thomas35forever
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Face it, Oz. We don't know how to bunt. Period. Just let our hitters swing away in those situations. We're not a bunting team and we won't be for the rest of the season. Someone speak up about it PLEASE.:angry:

sox1970
09-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Poor execution. Terrible situational hitting and pitching.

2 up with 19 to go.

Go get 'em tonight.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Come on everyone, lets blame Ozzie! :bandance:

No? Maybe the Sox just had a bad game? Ok, lets leave it at that.

wxkid23
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Shouldn't be bunting anyway. Not when the team had 2 hits.

Shoulden't be bunting at all.. especially AJ

turners56
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
No more bunting

I think that's pretty evident. A.J. had one of those bad games and so did Alexei.

Rockabilly
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
what a terrible game..

this team should have bunting practice all day tomorrow..


I would have AJ running laps until he can get down a decent bunt

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
The Sox bunted themselves out of not one, not two, not three, but FOUR INNINGS in this game.

Memo to Ozzie: THIS CLUB CANNOT BUNT. They are a power team. They cannot execute small-ball tactics. Adjust to your personnel, for crying out loud. It's September, and our manager should know this by now.

And why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Come on everyone, lets blame Ozzie! :bandance:

No? Maybe the Sox just had a bad game? Ok, lets leave it at that.

Did you watch Sunday's game?

joebro25
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Please no more bunt attempts, Ozzie should no for us it's just not possible. And please no more Swisher, he is just bad.

BRDSR
09-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Not that it ended up mattering after the turd the bottom third of the order laid in the 9th inning, but can anyone explain pinch-running for Paul Konerko after his lead off walk? The only reason his run means anything is if a runner behind him scores. And, despite Paulie's unbelievably slow speed, I'm nearly certain he could score under any circumstances which would allow even the fastest runner a base behind him to score. Meanwhile, as played, if we go into extras we're left with Paulie and his hot bat.

I don't think I'm unreasonably critical of Ozzie's on-field management, but this one has me scratching my head.

kevingrt
09-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Come on everyone, lets blame Ozzie! :bandance:

No? Maybe the Sox just had a bad game? Ok, lets leave it at that.

You blame the players for not executing.

KenBerryGrab
09-09-2008, 04:18 PM
Swing the damn bat.

munchman33
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
If anyone ever questions again why I don't think Nick Swisher is a good hitter, I'm going to point to this game, taking strike three in two key at bats. He isn't a grinder. He doesn't battle at the plate. He either tries to homer or tries to walk. And once again, that approach killed us in a crucial and winnable game.

soltrain21
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
I think AJ's first bunt attempt was on his own accord, because it would have made zero sense for it to be called for that early in the game.

salty99
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
So how many years in a row of working on bunting and dedicating back fields to bunting in spring training is it going to take to actually do it right?

cleanwsox
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
And why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

Yup, horrible decision even if he does get the bunt down successfully. Swisher won't swing at anything and Uribe swings at everything but doesn't hit it.

Konerko05
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
What an absolutely dreadful game.

How many at bats/outs are we going to waste with bunt attempts? Has Ozzie not noticed it isn't working? Everytime we get runners on base, any chance we have is ruined with Ozzie's call for the bunt, and the player's horrible execution.

Is Swisher ever going to swing the bat with men on base? It's getting ridiculous.

Harry Potter
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Now I know why AJ doesn't like to bunt (per the TV commercial)

If only Da Mayor was in attendance today....

turners56
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Please no more bunt attempts, Ozzie should no for us it's just not possible. And please no more Swisher, he is just bad.

I think he's in one of his slumps again. That's a pretty bad time to fall into one of those.

PicktoCLick72
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
With or without the bunting, we had 2 hits and you are not going to win games if you do that.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Not that it ended up mattering after the turd the bottom third of the order laid in the 9th inning, but can anyone explain pinch-running for Paul Konerko after his lead off walk? The only reason his run means anything is if a runner behind him scores. And, despite Paulie's unbelievably slow speed, I'm nearly certain he could score under any circumstances which would allow even the fastest runner a base behind him to score. Meanwhile, as played, if we go into extras we're left with Paulie and his hot bat.

I don't think I'm unreasonably critical of Ozzie's on-field management, but this one has me scratching my head.

Leaving Konerko in to run is boneheaded at that point in the game. The runner behind him can't go anywhere if he's stuck behind the lead runner.

It was the right move.

johnnyg83
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Damn. And Bannister on the mound against the Twins tonight.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Did you watch Sunday's game?I watched todays, I wasn't talking about Sunday's. What's your point? :scratch:

Ozzie can't control the skill of his players and pitchers. A team can win without a coach, stop blaming Ozzie.

kevingrt
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
And the fact we have to listen to Dave Kaplan on the "White Sox Post Game Show" sickens me.

Tragg
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
It's remarkable how many chances this staff gives to a veteran stiff like MacDougal. How could he possibly pitch in anything other than garbage time?
2 hits this time of year - yikes

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:20 PM
You blame the players for not executing.

I don't blame the players because we've seen all year that they can't bunt. Ozzie still thinks they can, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I'd rather swing away and GIDP then give away an out with a failed bunt.

soltrain21
09-09-2008, 04:20 PM
Not that it ended up mattering after the turd the bottom third of the order laid in the 9th inning, but can anyone explain pinch-running for Paul Konerko after his lead off walk? The only reason his run means anything is if a runner behind him scores. And, despite Paulie's unbelievably slow speed, I'm nearly certain he could score under any circumstances which would allow even the fastest runner a base behind him to score. Meanwhile, as played, if we go into extras we're left with Paulie and his hot bat.

I don't think I'm unreasonably critical of Ozzie's on-field management, but this one has me scratching my head.


It makes Ryan worry about the runners a little? I dunno.

turners56
09-09-2008, 04:21 PM
I don't blame the players because we've seen all year that they can't bunt. Ozzie still thinks they can, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I'd rather swing away and GIDP then give away an out with a failed bunt.

:scratch:

Double play = 2 outs
Failed bunt = 1 out

I have to disagree with that.

NoNeckEra
09-09-2008, 04:21 PM
Not that it ended up mattering after the turd the bottom third of the order laid in the 9th inning, but can anyone explain pinch-running for Paul Konerko after his lead off walk?
If Aiexi gets the bunt down, Paulie's out at third. That's why.

kidmccarthy
09-09-2008, 04:21 PM
**** Swisher and his BB tendencies. Swing the ****ing bat. Okay my rants over. Let's extend the lead to 3 tonight! I got a good feeling.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:21 PM
I watched todays, I wasn't talking about Sunday's. What's your point? :scratch:

Ozzie can't control the skill of his players and pitchers. A team can win without a coach, stop blaming Ozzie.

My point is it isn't just one game.

I'm not blaming Ozzie...never did.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-09-2008, 04:22 PM
I don't blame the players because we've seen all year that they can't bunt. Ozzie still thinks they can, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I'd rather swing away and GIDP then give away an out with a failed bunt.Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.

turners56
09-09-2008, 04:22 PM
This game just made me lose all the confidence I had in this team after that Angels series. I don't know if I even want to watch our terrible hitting go against Litsch tonight. He's been better than Burnett lately.

HangWiffum
09-09-2008, 04:23 PM
You blame the players for not executing.

and if they hardly execute then you blame the GM for bringing them in and the manager for putting them in that situation.

cleanwsox
09-09-2008, 04:23 PM
Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.

I'd rather take the chance of Alexei getting a hit rather than relying on Swisher and Uribe to get anything done.

wxkid23
09-09-2008, 04:23 PM
Im as big of Swisher fan as anyone but watching him the last couple games looking at strike 3 is beginning to get very sickening...no aggressiveness at all :?:

Konerko05
09-09-2008, 04:24 PM
:scratch:

Double play = 2 outs
Failed bunt = 1 out

I have to disagree with that.

Swinging = possibility of a hit/run
Successful sacrifice bunt = 1 out

joebro25
09-09-2008, 04:24 PM
I think he's in one of his slumps again. That's a pretty bad time to fall into one of those.

According to BR, hes been hitting .197 the last 28 days and .171 the last 14. He is not helping us at all taking crucial strike 3's in pressure situations. We need wins and has not been helping us get them for a while now.

kobo
09-09-2008, 04:25 PM
Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.
I blame Ozzie for having AJ try to bunt after AJ showed he couldn't get one down earlier in the game. I also blame Ozzie for having the only guy on the team hitting .300 and who has speed trying to get a bunt down in the bottom of the 9th with 2 on. Both of those were bad decisions, IMO.

champagne030
09-09-2008, 04:25 PM
Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.

Ozzie also managed poorly.

Jimmy Piersall
09-09-2008, 04:26 PM
Ok,everybody to the crapper please.Let's dump and flush.
We need to get the game tonight or else it's a one game
lead.Twinks will not lose to KC and nobody should expect
them to.

IceczMan
09-09-2008, 04:26 PM
Add me to the "Bench Swisher" Bandwagon. Besides Munch, I haven't read too many posts about how poor of a hitter Swisher has been this season when there have been numerous posts about the previous inabilities of Konerko and Thome. It is basically a toss up for me as to whether I'd rather see Swisher or Fields in left at this point. Hopefully we pull out a win tonight with Dye, Griff, and Anderson in the outfield.

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:26 PM
:scratch:

Double play = 2 outs
Failed bunt = 1 out

I have to disagree with that.

The Sox bunted themselves out of not one, not two, not three, but FOUR INNINGS in this game.

Memo to Ozzie: THIS CLUB CANNOT BUNT. They are a power team. They cannot execute small-ball tactics. Adjust to your personnel, for crying out loud. It's September, and our manager should know this by now.

And why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

Konerko05
09-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Not that it ended up mattering after the turd the bottom third of the order laid in the 9th inning, but can anyone explain pinch-running for Paul Konerko after his lead off walk? The only reason his run means anything is if a runner behind him scores. And, despite Paulie's unbelievably slow speed, I'm nearly certain he could score under any circumstances which would allow even the fastest runner a base behind him to score. Meanwhile, as played, if we go into extras we're left with Paulie and his hot bat.

I don't think I'm unreasonably critical of Ozzie's on-field management, but this one has me scratching my head.

You don't think having speed is an advantage on the base paths? Why would you leave the slowest player on the team out there down by 2 in the 9th? I'd rather have his run score and worry about who replaces him later if we happen to go into extra innings.

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.

Why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

Tragg
09-09-2008, 04:29 PM
Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Because the Sox shouldn't be giving away outs with bunting in the first place. This pitching staff isn't that good to be playing for 1 run. And doing it when you're behind is dim This is a home run hitting team, so Ozzie throws away outs to move players up one base. He's forcing this stuff, something he didn't do in 05. Today was absolute ridiculous with Guillen's clown managing: he gave away 15 percent of the Sox' outs in a 1 run game.
In a game like this you bunt in the 8th inning when you're up 1 in order to get an insurance run; you bunt in the 9th if the game is tied.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-09-2008, 04:29 PM
I blame Ozzie for having AJ try to bunt after AJ showed he couldn't get one down earlier in the game. I also blame Ozzie for having the only guy on the team hitting .300 and who has speed trying to get a bunt down in the bottom of the 9th with 2 on. Both of those were bad decisions, IMO.Alexei wasn't hitting .300 at the time, IMO.

kittle42
09-09-2008, 04:30 PM
Somebody remind me to stay out of the game threads. It got ridiculous (and tripled in population) the second the Jays scored.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:31 PM
Alexei wasn't hitting .300 at the time, IMO.

In your opinion he wasn't hitting .300?

Isn't that more of a fact/fiction thing?

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:31 PM
Somebody remind me to stay out of the game threads. It got ridiculous (and tripled in population) the second the Jays scored.

It was nice to have you there as one of the reasonable ones, though.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-09-2008, 04:32 PM
In your opinion he wasn't hitting .300?

Isn't that more of a fact/fiction thing?His batting average was clearley .299 when he was at bat. That isn't .300. That is a fact... saying he is .300 because he is almost there is fiction.

kobo
09-09-2008, 04:35 PM
His batting average was clearley .299 when he was at bat. That isn't .300. That is a fact... saying he is .300 because he is almost there is fiction.
Alexei still should not have been asked to bunt in that situation. Whether he's batting .300 or .299.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:37 PM
His batting average was clearley .299 when he was at bat. That isn't .300. That is a fact... saying he is .300 because he is almost there is fiction.

Nevermind.

http://www.tropsoft.com/ergotimer/images/stretches/wholearm_stretch.png

PorkChopExpress
09-09-2008, 04:37 PM
Somebody remind me to stay out of the game threads. It got ridiculous (and tripled in population) the second the Jays scored.

Don't forget to stay out of the game threads.

As for this game, it was poor hitting against good pitching. We pitched good enough to win, but got two hits and left 8 on base. I agree that we should not be bunting. When this team does not score runs, we are reminded that it is a homerun hitting team built for U.S. Cellular and that we will live and die by the homerun. So why does the manager call plays like this is a small ball team?

kittle42
09-09-2008, 04:37 PM
It was nice to have you there as one of the reasonable ones, though.

Well, they don't hit - at ALL - and people turn on everyone BUT the hitters. Makes no sense. Team is getting no-hit through 5 and the biggest villain at the time was Javier Vazquez, who had given up all of 2 runs and generally pitched pretty well, working out of jams. Again, senseless.

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:38 PM
His batting average was clearley .299 when he was at bat. That isn't .300. That is a fact... saying he is .300 because he is almost there is fiction.

In that case, we shouldn't be having a .299 hitter bunt in order to set up a guy who is hitting .225. OK?

asindc
09-09-2008, 04:38 PM
I don't blame the players because we've seen all year that they can't bunt. Ozzie still thinks they can, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I'd rather swing away and GIDP then give away an out with a failed bunt.

Actually, I do blame players for not being able to execute a simple bunt. They are not even bunting for hits, and can't do it properly. They get paid to do that simple task. Period. The main reason most MLB players bunt worse than Little Leaguers is that it doesn't help their stats unless they are fast enough to bunt for hits. It is selfish and inexcusable, IMO.

I rarely go on a rant like this after a loss. The only other time this season I did a similar rant was, yep, you guessed it, after BA's ridiculus bunt attempt in the Baltimore postponed game. This is the one of three things that gets me steaming about baseball players. The other two are 1) walking a winning run in... you might as well serve up a meatball and take your chances; and 2) Not swinging at a borderline pitch when you are the last out (I'm talking to you Swisher for Sunday's game).

Law11
09-09-2008, 04:38 PM
A bigger concern is this 2nd game. With Doc Halladay going tomorrow we need this one tonight BAD. I mean REAL BAD.

Problem is Richard has very little room for error. We are facing another good pitcher in game 2 where runs may be scarce.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:39 PM
Well, they don't hit - at ALL - and people turn on everyone BUT the hitters. Makes no sense. Team is getting no-hit through 5 and the biggest villain at the time was Javier Vazquez, who had given up all of 2 runs and generally pitched pretty well, working out of jams. Again, senseless.

Javy Vazquez is the bad guy because his strong performance gave us a glimmer of hope that we could actually win that game.

Javy toys with our hearts once again...

kittle42
09-09-2008, 04:39 PM
As for this game, it was poor hitting against good pitching. We pitched good enough to win, but got two hits and left 8 on base. I agree that we should not be bunting. When this team does not score runs, we are reminded that it is a homerun hitting team built for U.S. Cellular and that we will live and die by the homerun. So why does the manager call plays like this is a small ball team?

Agreed on both counts. How many times do we need to see the failed bunts this season before Guillen realizes this team is incapable of executing fundamental baseball that NL pitchers can easily do when everyone in the damn park knows they are bunting? The answer is apparently through the entire season with no end.

veeter
09-09-2008, 04:40 PM
Swisher strikes out looking a lot.

RockJock07
09-09-2008, 04:40 PM
The Sox bunted themselves out of not one, not two, not three, but FOUR INNINGS in this game.

Memo to Ozzie: THIS CLUB CANNOT BUNT. They are a power team. They cannot execute small-ball tactics. Adjust to your personnel, for crying out loud. It's September, and our manager should know this by now.

And why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

No, this one is on the players. People bitch and moan that Ozzie doesn't do more small ball but this team blows at it and will win or lose on the HR. You would think that despit the fact that this team only hit's HR's they could get one bunt down.

That 9th inning was awful, simply awful. Not a good way to start off this series.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Swisher strikes out looking a lot.

Swisher's bobblehead doesn't deserve a spot on my desk after his last couple weeks.

Ugh.

Tragg
09-09-2008, 04:44 PM
Agreed on both counts. How many times do we need to see the failed bunts this season before Guillen realizes this team is incapable of executing fundamental baseball that NL pitchers can easily do when everyone in the damn park knows they are bunting? The answer is apparently through the entire season with no end. Ozzie ordering bunts by players who are incapable of bunting and bunting at inane times beats the alternative: loading the team with players who have no discernable skill except bunting and slap hitting (2007's "solution" to Guillen's insistence on a bunting team).

Chicken Dinner
09-09-2008, 04:46 PM
Once again, NO homers, NO Win!

I dread the thought of seeing tonights lineup filled with Knights.

jabrch
09-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Nobody wants to tip their cap to AJ Burnett for throwing a nice game?

PorkChopExpress
09-09-2008, 04:50 PM
Ozzie ordering bunts by players who are incapable of bunting and bunting at inane times beats the alternative: loading the team with players who have no discernable skill except bunting and slap hitting (2007's "solution" to Guillen's insistence on a bunting team).

There is not only one alternative. Ozzie can also NOT order the bunt by players who are incapable of bunting and NOT bunt at inane times. Instead he can let players who are very good at hitting homeruns try to do just that.

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:50 PM
No, this one is on the players. People bitch and moan that Ozzie doesn't do more small ball but this team blows at it and will win or lose on the HR. You would think that despit the fact that this team only hit's HR's they could get one bunt down.

That 9th inning was awful, simply awful. Not a good way to start off this series.

Look at my posting record: I NEVER BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT A LACK OF SMALL BALL. I believe in home runs. That's what this team is built for. I never want to see another bunt for the rest of the season.

JB98
09-09-2008, 04:51 PM
Nobody wants to tip their cap to AJ Burnett for throwing a nice game?

He did throw a great game. He had no-hit stuff.

russ99
09-09-2008, 04:51 PM
Ozzie ordering bunts by players who are incapable of bunting and bunting at inane times beats the alternative: loading the team with players who have no discernable skill except bunting and slap hitting (2007's "solution" to Guillen's insistence on a bunting team).

It doesn't have to go either way. We can have power hitters as well as speed/bunt/OBP guys who excel at situational hitting. That's called a balanced team.

I'm not saying this year or last year the Sox have had that (this year is closer with our power hitters, OC and Alexei) but some of you guys seem to insist that the Sox only can have a lineup of plodders that hit homers to be successful. The the baseball world most often doesn't work that way.

Also, do some of you realize Ozzie was a coach for NL teams? His style never turns away from manufacturing runs when things are tough and hits are hard to come by. It's on this group of players that they can't seem to do that. Don't blame the manager... There are time when I wish Ozzie could pinch hit, and he probably could do it too.

Law11
09-09-2008, 04:51 PM
Nobody wants to tip their cap to AJ Burnett for throwing a nice game?

:tiphat:

But its so much more energizing to whine and complain....

soltrain21
09-09-2008, 04:57 PM
Nobody wants to tip their cap to AJ Burnett for throwing a nice game?

Still a winnable game if we execute.

And can "tip your cap" go the way of "Bmac" and curse words?

TDog
09-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Shouldn't be bunting anyway. Not when the team had 2 hits.

When you bunt, you take the bat out of a hitter's hands. In the case of a National League pitcher, there is a reason you concede the out. When you are bunting with hitters who have some of your team's best batting averages, you are depriving them of a chance to do what they do better than the hitters behind them.

Had the bunts been successful today, the Sox wouldn't have won. Bunting runners over to second a third when the score is tied is good baseball, especially in the ninth when it forces the defense to try to choke off the run a the plate. Doing it when your team is down by a run is a gamble because you give up an out in the process and it doesn't dramatically change the defense. It still takes a hit. Doing it when you're down by two runs is a huge gamble. In the last inning, the runner ahead of the tying run doesn't mean anything.

Sacrifice bunts by good hitters run contrary to percentage baseball. If you're doing it to stay out of the doubleplay, you are giving up an out. The next guy wouldn't be able to ground into a doubleplay, but if he does make an out, you still have two outs.

Ramirez had to be bunting for a hit in the ninth, and Pierzynski had to be bunting for a hit when the Sox were down by two, and the Sox led off with a runner on first. You don't play for one run in the sixth when you're down by two.

Today the Sox pitching was good enough that they could have won, although twice the Jays put together three straight two-out hits to score. The Jays pitching was better. Burnett was great. He probably is the biggest reason the Sox lost, and would have lost even if they had not wasted outs by bunting. And tonight the Sox face a pitcher who shut out the Twins in his last start.

Nick Swisher had a rough day. Not that he came close to getting on base today, but he seemed more concerned with walking than with driving in the big run from second today. People here denigrate big RBI hitters around here, downplaying RBIs as a stat. I have never done that. It's runs that win games, and most runs have to be driven in.

guillensdisciple
09-09-2008, 05:01 PM
I shiver at the ugliness of that game... wow that was bad. Well lets see how we do in the second game.

turners56
09-09-2008, 05:02 PM
I'm trying to get my mind off of baseball. Every time I think of how bad this game was, I just get a terrible feeling in my stomach. Please, make it stop!

JB98
09-09-2008, 05:02 PM
When you bunt, you take the bat out of a hitter's hands. In the case of a National League pitcher, there is a reason you concede the out. When you are bunting with hitters who have some of your team's best batting averages, you are depriving them of a chance to do what they do better than the hitters behind them.

Had the bunts been successful today, the Sox wouldn't have won. Bunting runners over to second a third when the score is tied is good baseball, especially in the ninth when it forces the defense to try to choke off the run a the plate. Doing it when your team is down by a run is a gamble because you give up an out in the process and it doesn't dramatically change the defense. It still takes a hit. Doing it when you're down by two runs is a huge gamble. In the last inning, the runner ahead of the tying run doesn't mean anything.

Sacrifice bunts by good hitters run contrary to percentage baseball. If you're doing it to stay out of the doubleplay, you are giving up an out. The next guy wouldn't be able to ground into a doubleplay, but if he does make an out, you still have two outs.

Ramirez had to be bunting for a hit in the ninth, and Pierzynski had to be bunting for a hit when the Sox were down by two, and the Sox led off with a runner on first. You don't play for one run in the sixth when you're down by two.

Today the Sox pitching was good enough that they could have won, although twice the Jays put together three straight two-out hits to score. The Jays pitching was better. Burnett was great. He probably is the biggest reason the Sox lost, and would have lost even if they had not wasted outs by bunting. And tonight the Sox face a pitcher who shut out the Twins in his last start.

Nick Swisher had a rough day. Not that he came close to getting on base today, but he seemed more concerned with walking than with driving in the big run from second today. People here denigrate big RBI hitters around here, downplaying RBIs as a stat. I have never done that. It's runs that win games, and most runs have to be driven in.

But he wasn't. And that's why I'm so upset. The bat was taken out of the hands of one of the Sox's most clutch performers.

TDog
09-09-2008, 05:07 PM
But he wasn't. And that's why I'm so upset. The bat was taken out of the hands of one of the Sox's most clutch performers.

Was that made clear?

Ramirez has a couple of bunt hits this year, and at least one came with no one on base. He also has, at last count, four successful sacrifice bunts. But why would the Sox be sacrificing in that situation when it is so clearly a losing strategy?

hawkjt
09-09-2008, 05:10 PM
Ozzie has to play for one run after seeing how lites out Burnett was today. No problem with trying to bunt. Just wish they could get it done.
Burnett has some of the best stuff in the league and he brought it today.
Sox were lucky to get anyone on base.
Sox vs good pitching? Not good.
They must battle to get two wins this series...not gonna be easy.
Jays have the best pitching in MLB. Too bad we have to catch them when they are hitting also.

JB98
09-09-2008, 05:12 PM
Was that made clear?

Ramirez has a couple of bunt hits this year, and at least one came with no one on base. He also has, at last count, four successful sacrifice bunts. But why would the Sox be sacrificing in that situation when it is so clearly a losing strategy?

It seemed clear to me that it was a sacrifice attempt. He squared to bunt on three straight pitches, until he had two strikes. If he were bunting for a base hit, he would have tried it once and maybe even twice. But not three times.

sox1970
09-09-2008, 05:12 PM
Vazquez better be out there on Saturday. This is no time to pitch Broadway.

hawkjt
09-09-2008, 05:17 PM
Toronto has allowed 1 earned run in the last 38 innings off their starters.
That is some quality chucking.
Will the sox get an earned run off a jays starter this series.
KC needs to get a game vs the Twins so the worse that could happen is that the sox are tied when the tigers come to town. Of course the sox could beat litsch,Halladay and marcum.

2906
09-09-2008, 05:36 PM
WOW. This is looking like that series earlier in the season where we couldn't buy a run.

One thing about Alexei's at bat...

Ryan got a gift strike on the second pitch, that completely changed that AB.



That's a very good point, that first strike call was awful and it did change the at bat.

Alexei's bunt attempt after that pitch was dreadful, just a horrible attempt.

I understand why a bunt was called for but Swisher and Uribe were coming up next, neither of whom has been very good lately. Hit and run might have been a better call but then you're risking making the first out at third base.

It all came down to execution, as it almost always does. Overbay executed with two outs. Konerko had a good at bat in a similar situation but made an out. Then they can't bunt, and Swisher and Uribe have bad at bats. Toronto executed, the White Sox didn't.

BleacherBandit
09-09-2008, 05:37 PM
Missed this game because I was working....Sounds like Burnett was pitching a clinic.

FedEx227
09-09-2008, 05:48 PM
Yeah the players can't execute bunts which sucks, but the situations in which they were bunting were stupid.

1-run ball games 9th inning, yes, that's fine. Why in the sixth inning of a 2-0 ballgame are we bunting with the heart of our order coming up?!

Alexei, the Rookie of the Month, down 2 in the 9th inning...bunting.

Ugh. Enough of this Ozzieball bull****. Work the count, swing the bat, quit the worthless bunting.

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:14 PM
Come on everyone, lets blame Ozzie! :bandance:

The Sox had a bad game that was magnified by Ozzie's inability to manage in crucial situations.

Case in point, after Konerko led off the 9th with a walk, why did it take one pitch before Bourgeois was sent out to pinch run? Seems like, between Ozzie and Cora, they would have been thinking about that very scenario before PK even went up to bat. Wise or Bourgeois should have been on the top step with their helmets on ready to go.

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:21 PM
And why would Ramirez, a .300 hitter, be bunting to set the table for Swisher and Uribe anyway? Swisher and Uribe are .230 hitters. Don't take the bat out of Alexei's hands for those guys.

Bad managing.

Awful managing. I've said this countless times, but I absolutely hate the rally-killing, momentum-busting sacrifice bunt in the 9th inning when the pitcher is already on the ropes. Ryan couldn't get a ball over to save his life, and Ozzie effectively took the bat out of his best hitter's hands for the first two strikes. After that out, the momentum shifted back to Toronto.

Another goat in this game is Owens who didn't have the ability to get a good jump and go from first to third on a single up the middle. His existence on this team is now pointless.

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:27 PM
I think he's in one of his slumps again. That's a pretty bad time to fall into one of those.

Except for the month of June, Swish has been in a slump all year.

April: .211
May: 176
June: .315
July: .193
Aug: .224
Sept: .208

Of course, when you're a career .246 hitter, you have low expectations to begin with.

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:31 PM
It's remarkable how many chances this staff gives to a veteran stiff like MacDougal. How could he possibly pitch in anything other than garbage time?
2 hits this time of year - yikes

MacDougal has no business pitching in a one-run game at this point in the season.

Jerko
09-09-2008, 06:35 PM
I've got an idea! Let's bunt again!!!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Terribly managed game.

That said, we win game 2 easy, Twins lose. We're up 3 in a few hours

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:36 PM
Are you seriously blaming Ozzie? What the heck is with you guys? Can Ozzie make the players hit? Alexei can bunt, so how can you blame Ozzie there?

Just accept the SOX PLAYED BAD. Pitching was good, hitting wasn't.

The manager's job is to put players in situations where they can succeed by utilizing their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. If you think good managing is having a .300 hitter bunt against Ryan's fastball in the shadows in order to hope that one of the next two hitters (Swisher or Uribe) can get a base hit, you're insane.

JB98
09-09-2008, 06:37 PM
MacDougal has no business pitching in a one-run game at this point in the season.

Agreed. That was another terrible move. Thornton had struck out the first two men he had faced. Why did he get taken out? Was he pitching too effectively?

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:42 PM
Javy toys with our hearts once again...

But did he really? You didn't know he was going to give up some runs in the 6th inning?

Brian26
09-09-2008, 06:45 PM
Look at my posting record: I NEVER BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT A LACK OF SMALL BALL. I believe in home runs. That's what this team is built for. I never want to see another bunt for the rest of the season.

There's no shame in winning the World Series with a softball team. It's been done before and it can be done again.

hi im skot
09-09-2008, 07:00 PM
But did he really? You didn't know he was going to give up some runs in the 6th inning?

Javy was fine today. Our offense sucked.

TDog
09-09-2008, 07:07 PM
It seemed clear to me that it was a sacrifice attempt. He squared to bunt on three straight pitches, until he had two strikes. If he were bunting for a base hit, he would have tried it once and maybe even twice. But not three times.

I stand corrected. From the Gameday pitch log, it looked as if he only bunted once.

It was a stupid situation in which to bunt. That isn't second-guessing Guillen. I made during the at bat.

The only way you should be bunting there is if the score is tied. And Ramirez wouldn't have gotten the chance because the bunt would have followed the leadoff walk. Who knows? Pierzynski might have walked a couple of times today.

TomBradley72
09-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Today was "Kennyball" at it's worst with our inability to "manufacture" runs completely exposed:

Our #2 hitter has no speed, makes poor baserunning decisions (not today specifically) and cannot get a bunt down to save his life.
Owens' poor jump off 1st/not getting to 3rd on Dye's single after the failed bunt.
Lots of free swinging strike outs when a single/contact was in order.
Most contenders have a very solid 1-2 punch at the top of the order as a catalyst for the offense...we have neither a lead off hitter or a solid #2 hitter. Over the course of 162 game season....the "Kennyball" line up will be exposed at least 4-5 times..especially in a tight pennant race. It's the difference between winning the Division and another 2001/2002/2003/2004/2006 "close but no cigar" finish as an also ran.

TomBradley72
09-09-2008, 07:32 PM
I think he's in one of his slumps again. That's a pretty bad time to fall into one of those.

Other than a few spurts...Swisher has been slumping most of the year:

vs. LHs: .208
Post All Star: .206
Last 30 days: .221
Late Innings: .209

Jerko
09-09-2008, 07:34 PM
maybe we should have bunted.

Jerko
09-09-2008, 07:35 PM
Still a winnable game if we execute.

And can "tip your cap" go the way of "Fingernails on a blackboard" and curse words?

I agree. Why isn't OC RUNNING on the pitch during those bunts? They were 2 decent bunts, but still he gets forced both times.

JB98
09-09-2008, 07:58 PM
I agree. Why isn't OC RUNNING on the pitch during those bunts? They were 2 decent bunts, but still he gets forced both times.

Neither of them were good bunts. In fact, the first one was horrible. If it's a sacrifice situation, why would OC need to be running on the pitch? The objective is to give up an out to get the guy to second. An effective bunt does that without the runner being put in motion.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-09-2008, 08:06 PM
I could not watch the game today so I'm reading the post-race thread. Eight pages long and 80% of the posts are about the failure of the Sox to bunt or wondering why the Sox were bunting. It's like a feeding frenzy on the topic.

Here's my opinion on why the Sox lost the game: They got only 2 hits. They weren't going to win unless they pitched a shutout. I don't know why everyone is carrying on about bunting. They ran into a tough pitcher in Burnett and that was about it. Time to move on to game 2 today.

Jerko
09-09-2008, 08:11 PM
Neither of them were good bunts. In fact, the first one was horrible. If it's a sacrifice situation, why would OC need to be running on the pitch? The objective is to give up an out to get the guy to second. An effective bunt does that without the runner being put in motion.

If you know the guy behind you is bunting, and he sucks at it, take off on the pitch. He should have been safe both times IMO.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2008, 10:33 PM
I just want to comment on something Turner said earlier in the post.

Regarding fundamentals, we've heard for two straight spring trainings about how much time the team was spending working on them.

Last year Ozzie was so upset that he had mandatory bunting practice in pre game drills at least twice.

Ozzie can only do so much. The fact is these guys simply can not do it, nor can they run, execute the hit and run or numerous other things that can help you win games when you aren't hitting three solo home runs.

Ozzie didn't put this club together folks, it seems to me he's doing what he can.

And if the rumors are true Kenny himself, finally after nine years of this is tired too.

Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson are being talked about for a reason...and it's not because they'll hit 20 home runs each.

Lip

pdimas
09-10-2008, 10:24 AM
What a crap game. Some guy parked behind me started bitching about Macdougal and I said listen two hits isnt going to get it done against anybody even if he doesnt give up any runs we still lose.

The only highlight was getting shown on TV with my Hawks t-shirt on. :tongue:

Vienna
09-10-2008, 09:02 PM
Almost posted this last night with a "just got back from the game." I was at the early game. I had picked up Scout Seats about 6 weeks ago and made the trip to take my brother. That game was rained out, my brother couldn't go on Tuesday. It was a frustrating game, which made the trip to O'Hare and flight home even more frustrating.

The inability to get down a proper bunt was incredibly frustrating, but it was cool to see a game from the Scout Seats (and to enjoy outdoor ball).

Things are looking better tonight.

assrevolution
09-11-2008, 09:08 AM
I could not watch the game today so I'm reading the post-race thread. Eight pages long and 80% of the posts are about the failure of the Sox to bunt or wondering why the Sox were bunting. It's like a feeding frenzy on the topic.

Here's my opinion on why the Sox lost the game: They got only 2 hits. They weren't going to win unless they pitched a shutout. I don't know why everyone is carrying on about bunting. They ran into a tough pitcher in Burnett and that was about it. Time to move on to game 2 today.

With all the errors and several walks Toronto had we didn't need a lot of hits to win. 1st and 2nd with no out doesn't need a single hit to score. A sacrifice bunt followed by sacrifice fly-ground out scores the run. rinse and repeat.

palehozenychicty
09-11-2008, 09:11 AM
With all the errors and several walks Toronto had we didn't need a lot of hits to win. 1st and 2nd with no out doesn't need a single hit to score. A sacrifice bunt followed by sacrifice fly-ground out scores the run. rinse and repeat.


Thank you. Toronto made plenty of mistakes and the Sox's lack of fundamentals and speed simply killed them in that game. They made some amends last night, so hopefully they can keep it up.