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Fenway
09-08-2008, 12:06 PM
Yesterday the Pirates clinched their 16th consecutive losing season which ties the 1933-48 Philadelphia Phillies for the longest such streak in MLB.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08252/910405-63.stm

How long has it been?

Tim Wakefield was with the last winning Pittsburgh team :o:

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/tim-wakefield-don.jpg

doublem23
09-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Not surprised to see this item connected somehow to the Red Sox.

kittle42
09-08-2008, 12:24 PM
Tom Brady.

jabrch
09-08-2008, 12:29 PM
I find this to be a complete shame. The Pirates are one of my favorite non-Sox teams. That's a blue collar town with a lot of long time fans. They were a great franchise for 30+ years - until the economics of the game changed and made it impossible. Despite having a great stadium, great fans, and they have a franchise that is clear of most contraversy.

They deserve better than this sillyness.

pythons007
09-08-2008, 12:46 PM
I find this to be a complete shame. The Pirates are one of my favorite non-Sox teams. That's a blue collar town with a lot of long time fans. They were a great franchise for 30+ years - until the economics of the game changed and made it impossible. Despite having a great stadium, great fans, and they have a franchise that is clear of most contraversy.

They deserve better than this sillyness.


Well I don't know about clear of contraversy. They do make a lot of asinine moves. There trades are down right moronic. I mean what did the Cubs give for Aramis??? Did they get anything in the Brian Giles deal or did he leave as a free agent? I believe there are countless others that I can't think of.

As far as the economics comment, thats BS. Look at what the Rays are doing now, the Marlins have won 2 World Series, Oakland has been in the playoffs quite a bit. I think most of the blame has to fall on management and how they have run that organization into the ground! Not to mention there have been a couple seasons where a .500 team has won that division!

jabrch
09-08-2008, 01:13 PM
There trades are down right moronic. I mean what did the Cubs give for Aramis???

Hindsight is 20/20 on that one. They did get Bobby Hill who was a well regarded prospect. At the time, Ramirez was a terrible defender who had ONE good hitting season and 2 very bad ones. He was hitting .280/.330/.448 when traded, after a .272/.324/.465 season with 27 HRs and playing horrendous defense. His salary was going from 3mm to 6mm the next year - that wasn't a bad move at the time - they dumped him, and got a good prosepct - who didn't work out. Aramis got much better after donning Cubby blue - so in hindsight we know how it worked out.

Did they get anything in the Brian Giles deal or did he leave as a free agent? I believe there are countless others that I can't think of.

Jason Bay and Oliver Perez....I'm not sure how that's anything other than a win for the Pirates. Giles was making 8mm that Pittsburgh didn't have in the bank to spend.

As far as the economics comment, thats BS.

I knew someone would say that - so I was ready.

The economics comment is not BS. The fact is that a team can not contend by building a franchise and retaining their players this way on a consistent basis. The only ways to do it is to suck so horrendously that you draft at the top for 5 years, then get amazing luck in having 4 or 5 guys develop all at the same time, and hope that you don't lose them to FA while ascending. Or to dump your veterans for prospects and hope that you have amazing luck and get a few to develop that way. Neither are a fair model that enable teams to compete on an even ground. I didn't say that the Pirates couoldn't ever win - they could - just as have a bunch of small market teams. But you aren't on an even playing field - and the Pirates deserve better than that.

Don't start with me on what Oakland has done. If you give me a limitless supply of steroids, and amazing luck, I will have a good shot at developing 3 Cy Young calibre pitchers and 3 MVP calibre hitters all in the same few years. I will then reap the filthy rewards of their steroid ridden carcasses for years to come. That said, I won't ever win anything either - because just when my guys get good, I will unload them for the next group of kids, and hope that they develop...eventually, that well dries up - see 2008.

I think most of the blame has to fall on management and how they have run that organization into the ground!

If you think the Pirates are playing on an even ground with their opposition, and managmenet is the majority of the reason why they aren't making it to the playoffs nearly every year while Boston and NY are, that's your choice. I think that is a ridiculous premise.

With 75mm more, the Pirates would still be spending less than half as much as NYY or Boston. That's game changing type money - both to develop talent, to not lose talent as salaries escalate, and to compete for an occasional piece that they need, rather than to annually be a feeder team for those more wealthy clubs who raid either young players who are about to become FA or even those middle tier pieces who would be valuable to a team trying to contend, but who are a luxury that the Pirates can not afford to hold on to.

It isn't impossible to win with this sort of funding that Pitt has. It is just highly unlikely. That's a silly way to run a sport. The NFL has MLB beaten this way. Any team can win it with a few good seasons of planning and drafting. The MLB requires miraculous happenings over many years for a small market team to do it. The Twins are a great example of how - but even the Twins are not competing on a fair ground either.

BleacherBandit
09-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Yesterday the Pirates clinched their 16th consecutive losing season which ties the 1933-48 Philadelphia Phillies for the longest such streak in MLB.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08252/910405-63.stm

How long has it been?

Tim Wakefield was with the last winning Pittsburgh team :o:

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/tim-wakefield-don.jpg

Was he good back then?

khan
09-08-2008, 02:17 PM
I didn't say that the Pirates couoldn't ever win - they could - just as have a bunch of small market teams. But you aren't on an even playing field - and the Pirates deserve better than that.


I disagree. Stupid is as stupid does. There are many, many examples of "small market teams" that have utilized intelligent Front Office management, strong farm systems, and wise decisionmaking to compete.

****tsburgh's stupidity among their front office has consigned them to the bottom of the barrel. THEY ALONE have the ability to escape it, but in 16 years they have failed, and miserably so.

Don't start with me on what Oakland has done. If you give me a limitless supply of steroids, and amazing luck, I will have a good shot at developing 3 Cy Young calibre pitchers and 3 MVP calibre hitters all in the same few years.

Agreed with respect to Oakland. I think that Billy Beane is a bit overrated. Having said that, he's still lightyears ahead of ****tsburg in terms of managerial acumen, steroids or no steroids.


If you think the Pirates are playing on an even ground with their opposition, and managmenet is the majority of the reason why they aren't making it to the playoffs nearly every year while Boston and NY are, that's your choice. I think that is a ridiculous premise.

So what? Minnesota does it each and every year, despite having a fraction of the resources that Boston and NY have. [They WERE supposed to be contracted, remember?]

Don't like the Minnesota example? How about:
Florida's 2 World Series titles, or
Tampa's Playoff run. [They FINALLY got to using Sabremetrics to build their team.]

ALL of these teams make better front office decisions than ****tsburg.

ALL of these teams have better minor league systems than ****tsburg.

ALL of these teams refuse to give up players for free like ****tsburg has in trade.


It isn't impossible to win with this sort of funding that Pitt has. It is just highly unlikely. That's a silly way to run a sport. The NFL has MLB beaten this way. Any team can win it with a few good seasons of planning and drafting. The MLB requires miraculous happenings over many years for a small market team to do it. The Twins are a great example of how - but even the Twins are not competing on a fair ground either.

I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins players don't make stupid mistakes in the field. I believe it was sound training down on the farm, joined to wise managerial decisionmaking by their front office. I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins pitchers are advanced one level per year, rather than sped through the system. I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins hitters know how to work the count, hit to the right side with men on base, or lay down a sacrifice bunt in the right situation.

Pittsburg [or ****tsburgh] sucks because there are stupid individuals running that team. Period. If they stop making stupid decisions, they'll become a better team, inasmuch as it was the case for Tampa.

downstairs
09-08-2008, 02:22 PM
jabrch: I have to disagree with you on your stance that economics plays that big of a factor. I believe people just think it does.

I see small market teams littered in the playoffs every single year to a close proportion to how many small market teams exist.

I just think the proof is in the pudding with this one.

Your retort goes into the way small market teams have to build winners. Yeah, they do it differently than Chicago, LA, NY... but they still do it. And it works.

Heck, after the Yankees don't make the playoffs this year... look at them move to start using some of the strategies small market teams have used.

BleacherBandit
09-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Heck, after the Yankees don't make the playoffs this year... look at them move to start using some of the strategies small market teams have used.

Yeah, like not buying players and growing your own players?

Who on their starting roster hasn't been traded for? Jeter and Posada (who was replaced by buying Ivan) are the only ones I can think of. Are Cano and Melky Cabrera farm players?

BleacherBandit
09-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Also, I believe that the Marlins are just extremely lucky. After both seasons, they unloaded of almost all of their players, except for maybe Cabrera after '03...

I really don't think that they could be consitered as a good managing small market team..

Fenway
09-08-2008, 02:52 PM
Also, I believe that the Marlins are just extremely lucky. After both seasons, they unloaded of almost all of their players, except for maybe Cabrera after '03...

I really don't think that they could be consitered as a good managing small market team..

No the Marlins have the old Expos scouts as Loria took them all to Florida.

They know talent.

asindc
09-08-2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah, like not buying players and growing your own players?

Who on their starting roster hasn't been traded for? Jeter and Posada (who was replaced by buying Ivan) are the only ones I can think of. Are Cano and Melky Cabrera farm players?

Both Cano and Melky Cabrera are Yanks farm system guys.

I don't know what the Pirates owner's financials are, but if they are anything like the mega-rich owner of the Royals, then no sympathy for him (her, them). If you have it and penny-pinch like the Pirates, then you deserve to lose. But like I said, I don't know.

AZChiSoxFan
09-08-2008, 03:15 PM
Tom Brady.

LOL. Classic post Kittle.

jabrch
09-08-2008, 03:17 PM
I see small market teams littered in the playoffs every single year to a close proportion to how many small market teams exist.

I'm not so sure about that. The Yanks and the Red Sox make it every year. Only the As - and that is so largely thanks to steroids it is sick - have been able to make the playoffs "every single year". Others make one or two every now and then (like the Sox have) and then the efforts they had to do to get there catch up to them.

Yeah, like not buying players and growing your own players?

Who on their starting roster hasn't been traded for? Jeter and Posada (who was replaced by buying Ivan) are the only ones I can think of. Are Cano and Melky Cabrera farm players?

Those two were inside. Same with Rivera. And Matsui to some degree. Add that into the fact that their financial leverage is what gets them the ability to sign top prospects for over slot, retain their own big$ FA, and draw in the A-Rods of the world... That is strictly due to the economic leverage that they have that this franchise has had the run it has the past 15+ years. They draft expensive. They develop talent expensively. They keep their good players expensively. And they lure in the best possible FA that money can buy. You think Pittsburgh can do that? Minny? Oakland (sans steroids)? No way...

Also, I believe that the Marlins are just extremely lucky. After both seasons, they unloaded of almost all of their players, except for maybe Cabrera after '03...

I really don't think that they could be consitered as a good managing small market team..

Agreed - it is very lucky that some of these player dumps worked out for the best. That's not a sustainable approach. Giving up guys like Beckett, Sheff (in prime), Pudge (in prime), Burnett, Brown, Alou, Leiter, Lee, Penny, Pavano, Pierre etc... in two seasons after WS wins may just work. But it becomes increasingly difficult to get that sort of talent back. Giving up Miguel Cabrerra may just work - who knows what the prospects they got back will be. Maybe Hanley Ramirez...maybe Hee Sop Choi...maybe Ricky Nolasco....maybe Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall and John Getz?

Economics have forced their hand in many deals. If we were in that same position, unable to compete due to the economic structure of the game without multiple years of amazing good luck, I'm not sure how I could be as emotionally invested in the team as I am.

AZChiSoxFan
09-08-2008, 03:17 PM
I find this to be a complete shame. The Pirates are one of my favorite non-Sox teams. That's a blue collar town with a lot of long time fans. They were a great franchise for 30+ years - until the economics of the game changed and made it impossible. Despite having a great stadium, great fans, and they have a franchise that is clear of most contraversy.

They deserve better than this sillyness.

The Twins and the A's would seem to disprove the argument that it's impossible, at least as far as winning division titles. Heck, even the Royals had a winning record a few years back. IMO, it's time for the Bucs to stop blaming the system, and take a long, hard look in the mirror.

jabrch
09-08-2008, 03:19 PM
Both Cano and Melky Cabrera are Yanks farm system guys.

I don't know what the Pirates owner's financials are, but if they are anything like the mega-rich owner of the Royals, then no sympathy for him (her, them). If you have it and penny-pinch like the Pirates, then you deserve to lose. But like I said, I don't know.

An owner's personal wealth to me is very different than the team's situation. You can't expect them to pull money out of their pocket for this - that's not reasonable. I know some teams aren't even spending enough to make up for their incomes from shared revenues and the luxury tax - and that's a different story. But whatever the Pirates owners are worth from outside activities are different than the team's ability to sustain a P&L statement on the positive side.

jabrch
09-08-2008, 03:32 PM
The Twins and the A's would seem to disprove the argument that it's impossible, at least as far as winning division titles. Heck, even the Royals had a winning record a few years back. IMO, it's time for the Bucs to stop blaming the system, and take a long, hard look in the mirror.

Impossible - was an exaggeration. Although how many WS have the As won without the benefit of steroids? NONE.

And the Twins, while a great story, last won a WS in 1991 with a payroll of about 24mm. That same year the Yanks had a payroll of just over 27mm.

There is a big difference between a 3mm/10% difference in salary in 1991 (1 star player at the time) and the difference today 57mm vs 209mm. (152mm per year - can you imagine the Yanks without Alex Rodriguez, Giambi, Derek Jeter, Bobby Abreu, Rivera, Posada, Damon and Chein Ming Wang?) Imagine them without the ability to buy the best international FA (Cano, Melky, and Wang I think were all international FA?) How bout if they couldn't pay people over slot to draft them?

You take Oakland, Minny and all the other small makret teams. Give me the top payroll teams. Mine will win many more WS than yours. Mine will have more post season appearences. Mine will have fewer sub .500 seasons.

Impossible? no - wrong word choice. but so ridiculously unfair - I'll stand by that one. Pittsburgh management is regularly put in an unwinnable situation and forced to make the least bad decisions. Their opposition knows it - and it is awful hard to succeed in that environment.

Blueprint1
09-08-2008, 04:13 PM
If baseball is not careful its going to end up like the soccer leagues in Europe where only 3-4 teams have any chance to win the title.
Eventully, this will lead to diminished interest in the teams that have no chance.

khan
09-08-2008, 04:14 PM
You take Oakland, Minny and all the other small makret teams. Give me the top payroll teams. Mine will win many more WS than yours. Mine will have more post season appearences. Mine will have fewer sub .500 seasons.

You're moving the goalposts. The original post stated that Schittsburgh hasn't bothered to be >.500 in over 16 years. The original post said NOTHING about WS wins or post season appearances.

Good front office management ALONE can get a team to >.500. Smart player development can close the gap. Prudent scouting, both domestically and abroad, both in the minor leagues, and in the bigs, can help a team finish >.500. Utilizing a modicum of Sabrmetrics in helping to develop a clearer picture of player valuation can help bring the odd useful player to your team at a good price. And a little luck helps, too.

Minnesota, Oakland, Tampa Bay, Florida, and other teams have proven all of this to be baseball truth. Money can certainly HELP a team, but there is simply NO SUBSTITUTE for astute front office management.

Impossible? no - wrong word choice. but so ridiculously unfair - I'll stand by that one. Pittsburgh management is regularly put in an unwinnable situation and forced to make the least bad decisions. Their opposition knows it - and it is awful hard to succeed in that environment.

While I agree that MLB is an unfair game to play, [from the aspect of the financials, a lack of an international draft, etc...] SMART decisionmaking trumps this.


Again:

The original poster stated that Schittsburgh has sucked a horse's ass for 16 years. That they haven't finished >.500. He stated NOTHING about WS, post seasons, etc...

MeteorsSox4367
09-08-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm almost ashamed to admit that the Pirates are my favorite NL team. They've been horse(bleep) for so long. Great ballpark, strong tradition and the two times I've been in Pittsburgh, I really enjoyed the city.

Maybe someday they'll contend, but the recent run of crap doesn't exactly fill me with optimism.

Fenway
09-08-2008, 04:27 PM
may well be the best of the new parks

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/apr05/pnc403.jpg

Lip Man 1
09-08-2008, 04:29 PM
This might be of some interest:

There is a fabulous article this week in the print edition of The Sporting News (T.O. on the cover...) starting on page 58 and taking a detailed look at what the "new" Yankee Stadium is going to mean to that franchise and to baseball directly.

The story talks with a number of baseball folks and they all basically think it's bad news for baseball.

According to the story what the Yankees are going to get JUST FROM THEIR SEATS ALONE, will be more then almost every other team in baseball will make in total income! Stunning.

The story also quotes Toronto's Paul Godfrey, the president/CEO of the Blue Jays as saying that if the Yankees go nuts this off season (like the Cubs did when they spent 400 million in free agents and contract extensions) and have say a 300 MILLION DOLLAR payroll by next April, enough teams, including the Red Sox, may finally say, 'enough... we'll shut the game down until a salary cap arrives.'

MLB could be looking at Armageddon soon. It will be VERY interesting to see how this all plays out. Remember George Steinbrenner who is no longer healthy, isn't running that club anymore, his son Hank is, and he is what George was in the 1970's, so anything is possible.

I highly recommend reading this article.

Lip

Hitmen77
09-08-2008, 05:04 PM
It's a shame about the Pirates. I remember them being World Champions in '79. Their stadium may be the best in baseball - too bad it's wasted on such a bad team. In fact, I remember back in the 70s when the Pirates and Royals were among the best teams in baseball.

I have to believe that BOTH factors mentioned here (lousy management and MLB economics stacked against smaller markets) are to blame. You can't just blame it on their market size/attendance since other small market teams have been able to succeed on the field. A few years ago, I was convinced that Milwaukee couldn't support an MLB team and that, if MLB wanted contraction, they should take a hard look at the Brewers. But now they're in the running for the post season and drawing 35,000 per game.

However, I do believe that MLB economics are really stacked against the small market teams. Yes, teams like Florida and (this year) Tampa can succeed, but they have to be almost perfect in developing/trading for talent. That's not impossible, but it's pretty tough. Meanwhile, teams like the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs can just buy their way out of bad trades or a bad farm system.

Question: If PIttsburgh started making good drafts/trades and built themselves a playoff contender in a few years, would they get the fan support they need like the Brewers have? Or would they still be struggling to draw despite having good teams like we've seen in recent years in Oakland, Florida, and now Tampa.

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2008, 05:09 PM
Pittsburgh made some great trades this season. A lot of their future is dependent upon the current Pedro Alvarez dilemma. If Alvarez works out, he'll go nicely with their young core of players: Jose Tabata, Nate McLouth, Andy LaRoche, Ryan Doumit, Matt Capps, etc.

PennStater98r
09-08-2008, 05:19 PM
I disagree. Stupid is as stupid does. There are many, many examples of "small market teams" that have utilized intelligent Front Office management, strong farm systems, and wise decisionmaking to compete.

****tsburgh's stupidity among their front office has consigned them to the bottom of the barrel. THEY ALONE have the ability to escape it, but in 16 years they have failed, and miserably so.



Agreed with respect to Oakland. I think that Billy Beane is a bit overrated. Having said that, he's still lightyears ahead of ****tsburg in terms of managerial acumen, steroids or no steroids.




So what? Minnesota does it each and every year, despite having a fraction of the resources that Boston and NY have. [They WERE supposed to be contracted, remember?]

Don't like the Minnesota example? How about:
Florida's 2 World Series titles, or
Tampa's Playoff run. [They FINALLY got to using Sabremetrics to build their team.]

ALL of these teams make better front office decisions than ****tsburg.

ALL of these teams have better minor league systems than ****tsburg.

ALL of these teams refuse to give up players for free like ****tsburg has in trade.




I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins players don't make stupid mistakes in the field. I believe it was sound training down on the farm, joined to wise managerial decisionmaking by their front office. I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins pitchers are advanced one level per year, rather than sped through the system. I don't believe that it is "miraculous" that Twins hitters know how to work the count, hit to the right side with men on base, or lay down a sacrifice bunt in the right situation.

Pittsburg [or ****tsburgh] sucks because there are stupid individuals running that team. Period. If they stop making stupid decisions, they'll become a better team, inasmuch as it was the case for Tampa.

I think someone has to make poo poo on the potty.

Fenway
09-08-2008, 06:24 PM
Pittsburgh is a football town first, second and third and a hockey town fourth. Three Rivers was awful for baseball and then the drug scandals the Pirates had in the 80's just turned off the fanbase.

I remember being at Game 7 of the World Series in 1979 and even though tickets were easy to come by very few fans from Pittsburgh made the short drive to Baltimore. Still winning will bring the fans back. Ownership got a wake up call 2 years ago when KDKA dropped the team after carrying the games since the 1920's.

Lip

Red Sox ownership is fully aware of how much more revenue the Yankees will have in the new park and Boston is pretty much maxxed out in increasing revenue. Obviously nobody want to hear Boston complaining about revenue as they are #2.

The Yankees Scout Seats will be $2500 a game which is insanity and only in New York is that possible.

Hank is trying to get more per subscriber for YES and can do so as long as the ratings hold. But if the Mets get hot they will attract more viewers to SNY and the Yankees will suffer.

Lip I agree there has to be a cap but I think the only way it will happen is if the FCC allows a-la-carte pricing for cable and IF that happens YES , NESN and other RSN's will take a hit.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2008, 10:37 PM
Epstein and one of the Red Sox owners are quoted in the story and they both say they can't compete financially against the Yankees anymore.

I still can't see how under any circumstances the MLBPA would agree to a cap and if the owners don't negotiate with them, they'll wind up back in court like in 94 and the federal government will rule against them again.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
09-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Epstein and one of the Red Sox owners are quoted in the story and they both say they can't compete financially against the Yankees anymore.

I still can't see how under any circumstances the MLBPA would agree to a cap and if the owners don't negotiate with them, they'll wind up back in court like in 94 and the federal government will rule against them again.

Lip
Another work stoppage will crush baseball, fans will turn away in disgust and MLB will be in the same spot they were in '96-'97 except they won't be able to turn a blind eye towards steroids again...what they might have to do is convince Bud or whoever is commissioner by that point that the best bet would be to invoke the "Best interest of the game" clause. If the players don't like it and go on strike...well, there are plenty of guys who would love to play major league baseball, I know that's a fact.

DSpivack
09-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Epstein and one of the Red Sox owners are quoted in the story and they both say they can't compete financially against the Yankees anymore.

I still can't see how under any circumstances the MLBPA would agree to a cap and if the owners don't negotiate with them, they'll wind up back in court like in 94 and the federal government will rule against them again.

Lip

Yay! Another strike looming on the horizon?

It's been great watching the Yankees since 2000 have a payroll approaching and topping $200 million, and yet they haven't won a WS.

As for the Pirates, being a small market team I think is a very valid excuse as to why they can't compete with the top teams in baseball to win a world series. However, there is absolutely no excuse for 16 consecutive losing seasons. That's complete mismanagement.

Fenway
09-08-2008, 11:09 PM
Epstein and one of the Red Sox owners are quoted in the story and they both say they can't compete financially against the Yankees anymore.

I still can't see how under any circumstances the MLBPA would agree to a cap and if the owners don't negotiate with them, they'll wind up back in court like in 94 and the federal government will rule against them again.

Lip

The cable tv money in certain markets has changed the baseball economy more than anything the past 20 years. However teams owning a channel has failed in Minneapolis and Kansas City.

In Chicago Comcast spun a deal that basically was designed to drive Charles Dolan and FSN out of the market and it worked and the former FSN Chicago reinvented itself as the Big Ten Network.

NESN and YES are now worth more than the teams they were invented to cover.

I agree with Lip that the game is headed for disaster but how does it get fixed?

soxfanreggie
09-08-2008, 11:14 PM
$2,500 a game...:o:

And I thought $45,000 for a skybox at Memorial Stadium for Illini games was ridiculous.

Fenway
09-08-2008, 11:38 PM
Another work stoppage will crush baseball, fans will turn away in disgust and MLB will be in the same spot they were in '96-'97 except they won't be able to turn a blind eye towards steroids again...what they might have to do is convince Bud or whoever is commissioner by that point that the best bet would be to invoke the "Best interest of the game" clause. If the players don't like it and go on strike...well, there are plenty of guys who would love to play major league baseball, I know that's a fact.

Let me preface by saying I have been a union member for most of my professional life.

I remember tears coming from my eyes when Bud Selig cancelled the 94 post-season but I was also convinced that it had to be done.

I worked in Ft Myers for the 1995 replacement players spring training as NESN televised every game and I believe fans were starting to root for the laundry and not the players.

Had the season started with replacement players the game would be in much better shape today.

WhiteSox5187
09-08-2008, 11:46 PM
Let me preface by saying I have been a union member for most of my professional life.

I remember tears coming from my eyes when Bud Selig cancelled the 94 post-season but I was also convinced that it had to be done.

I worked in Ft Myers for the 1995 replacement players spring training as NESN televised every game and I believe fans were starting to root for the laundry and not the players.

Had the season started with replacement players the game would be in much better shape today.
I think there is a big difference between the MLBPA and every other union on the face of the earth.

Simply said the owners shot themselves in the foot a long time ago, had they offered a salary cap when the PA first asked for free agency the PA would have lept at such a deal...but the owners were greedy and brought this upon us, now I think eventually the PA will wind up shooting itself in the foot. But there is time yet, we'll see how things work out.

guillensdisciple
09-09-2008, 01:21 AM
The NL is a joke and the pirates being the worst of the NL makes them the biggest joke in the world. I don't understand how it is possible for the Pirates to have that many consecutive losing seasons when they are a historic team. Many great moments from the past and great players have come from Pittsburgh but they can't produce in the dreadful national league. Take teams like the Seattle Mariners, Rangers, Orioles, Indians. They are playing in the American League and aren't the exact definition of loaded teams but find a way to compete.
The Pirates organization should be ashamed of themselves and I feel bad for their fans... I would probably be on a tirade to fire the manager at the moment.

jabrch
09-09-2008, 07:16 AM
I would probably be on a tirade to fire the manager at the moment.

All that would do is take another 400K or so away from your payroll as you'd have to pay out the remaining contract of the manager. Firing him would do nothing.

TommyJohn
09-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Let me preface by saying I have been a union member for most of my professional life.

I remember tears coming from my eyes when Bud Selig cancelled the 94 post-season but I was also convinced that it had to be done.

I worked in Ft Myers for the 1995 replacement players spring training as NESN televised every game and I believe fans were starting to root for the laundry and not the players.

Had the season started with replacement players the game would be in much better shape today.

Why do you say that?

PennStater98r
09-09-2008, 09:57 AM
Why do you say that?

I think he said it b/c the player's association would have known that the owners were serious.

The '94 strike was the closest game of chicken that has ever been played in baseball - the owners turned out of the way first.

AZChiSoxFan
09-09-2008, 11:39 AM
If baseball is not careful its going to end up like the soccer leagues in Europe where only 3-4 teams have any chance to win the title.
Eventully, this will lead to diminished interest in the teams that have no chance.

Except for the fact that we first heard this argument about 15 years ago. And since we first heard it, a certain "small market" team from south florida twice won the world series. Minn and Oakland have both made the playoffs multiple times this decade and MLB had a different WS winner each year from 2000-2006.

AZChiSoxFan
09-09-2008, 11:54 AM
This might be of some interest:

There is a fabulous article this week in the print edition of The Sporting News (T.O. on the cover...) starting on page 58 and taking a detailed look at what the "new" Yankee Stadium is going to mean to that franchise and to baseball directly.

The story talks with a number of baseball folks and they all basically think it's bad news for baseball.

According to the story what the Yankees are going to get JUST FROM THEIR SEATS ALONE, will be more then almost every other team in baseball will make in total income! Stunning.

The story also quotes Toronto's Paul Godfrey, the president/CEO of the Blue Jays as saying that if the Yankees go nuts this off season (like the Cubs did when they spent 400 million in free agents and contract extensions) and have say a 300 MILLION DOLLAR payroll by next April, enough teams, including the Red Sox, may finally say, 'enough... we'll shut the game down until a salary cap arrives.'

MLB could be looking at Armageddon soon. It will be VERY interesting to see how this all plays out. Remember George Steinbrenner who is no longer healthy, isn't running that club anymore, his son Hank is, and he is what George was in the 1970's, so anything is possible.

I highly recommend reading this article.

Lip


Lip, I read the article but here's the thing. Remember when the Yanks first had a $100M payroll? Everyone predicted that it was going to be the end, they would win every WS going forward, blah, blah, blah. Of course that didn't happen. Then, they hit a $200M payroll and we heard the same dire prections again. Of course, they again didn't come true.

But now, with a $300M payroll, I guess the predictions are serious this time. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
09-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Nothing justifies another work stoppage in my opinion. Personally I think fans would not come back as fast as they did after 94-95.

There is however three things MLB could do to solve the New York “problem” if they wanted to. I’m not a lawyer so don’t ask me about any legal ramifications.

1. MLB could put a 3rd team in the New York / New Jersey area. It could be an A.L. expansion team or a relocation of a current club.

MLB could also help finance construction of a new stadium so the club could begin play say in 2012 or 2013. They do this for any franchise by the way, pay for a percentage of the new construction.

This IMMEDIATELY de-values the Yankee (and Mets) franchises, lowers the value of the advertising deals, lowers the worth of the radio / TV contracts and lowers the numbers of fans. (The “new” franchise will get a share of the fan market and will also start getting advertisers / marketing opportunities of their own, that may have gone to the Yankees or Mets.)

Bottom line, they have less money (i.e. the Yankees and Mets) to work with.

2. MLB could tell owners like in Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Florida who apparently don’t want to compete and just subside off revenue sharing money and marketing deals, ‘you’re out…’ There’s plenty of Mark Cuban’s in the world who have billions of dollars and are willing to spend it taking on the ‘big boys.’

3. As PHG proposed MLB could move to a radical realignment system like in soccer in Europe where teams are grouped based on the previous year’s record.

Group A would be teams that won say 92 or more games. Group B, 82 or more, Group C…all the teams with losing records. Schedules are drawn up perhaps with some cross-over play from another group and “championship” series played out at the end (say top two finishers.)

No more A.L., no more N.L., no more worrying about how much someone spends. It’s all based on how many wins… period. Owners that don’t mind the embarrassment of playing in a lower division can stay there and whatever fans they have could still play for a “championship” against other like minded franchises. Plus you always have the “hope” of playing in a better league the next year.

Just some possible solutions, of course Proud To Be Your Bud won’t do anything anyway, probably just let it fester.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Az:

The difference may be if the Red Sox organization's comments were serious, that may be enough to actually start owners thinking about trying to get one again. That could have results that no one at this point can predict, if the game is shut down for a year or two.

Lip

doublem23
09-09-2008, 12:19 PM
3. As PHG proposed MLB could move to a radical realignment system like in soccer in Europe where teams are grouped based on the previous year’s record.

Group A would be teams that won say 92 or more games. Group B, 82 or more, Group C…all the teams with losing records. Schedules are drawn up perhaps with some cross-over play from another group and “championship” series played out at the end (say top two finishers.)

That is not how soccer relegation/promotion works.

pythons007
09-09-2008, 01:57 PM
If you think the Pirates are playing on an even ground with their opposition, and managmenet is the majority of the reason why they aren't making it to the playoffs nearly every year while Boston and NY are, that's your choice. I think that is a ridiculous premise.

With 75mm more, the Pirates would still be spending less than half as much as NYY or Boston. That's game changing type money - both to develop talent, to not lose talent as salaries escalate, and to compete for an occasional piece that they need, rather than to annually be a feeder team for those more wealthy clubs who raid either young players who are about to become FA or even those middle tier pieces who would be valuable to a team trying to contend, but who are a luxury that the Pirates can not afford to hold on to.

It isn't impossible to win with this sort of funding that Pitt has. It is just highly unlikely. That's a silly way to run a sport. The NFL has MLB beaten this way. Any team can win it with a few good seasons of planning and drafting. The MLB requires miraculous happenings over many years for a small market team to do it. The Twins are a great example of how - but even the Twins are not competing on a fair ground either.

I never said that they were playing on an even playing field. No one is playing on an even playing field compared to the bastards in Boston and NY. However there are moves that can be made by small market teams to keep their young talent for years to come. Like the Rays and Marlins did this year. Sign them for peanuts for years when they are young. We saw Longoria and Hanley Ramirez ink contracts this year that won't break the bank and keep key peices to the puzzle for years. So don't give me any crap that Pittsburgh can't do anything to get them out of their little rut.

Pittsburgh could have signed Bay to a good contract a year or two ago. They should sign McLouth to a simliar deal sooner rather than later. They should offer Capps something like this. I mean the list goes on and on.

I hate to argue against small market teams but its mostly their own fault for where they are. Again, th NL Central is nothing comparable to the NL East where every year you have to win upwards to 95 games to win the division. The last couple of years just being over .500 got you the division title (85 and 83 wins).

As far as the trades that were made this year. NONE of them netted them a top prospect. They just got bodies, lots and lots of bodies. They should have been able to get at least a top prospect for Bay with a couple other players in the mix. They should have received a kings random for Nady and Marte, both having huge years and a good bullpen arm is always hard to come by. I still say that Pittsburgh's management **** the bed. When a scout was asked what the Pirates got in return for all of their players, he said the same thing (I don't remember who it was or were the articles was from, but I know I read that somewhere :redface:).

Small market teams that have made the playoffs the last couple of years:
This year the Marlins, Twins, Diamondbacks are all competing for playoff spots and are at the bottom in salaries. The Rockies, Diamondbacks, Marlins have all reached the World Series and 2 of them have won it.

I'm sure there are at least 6-8 teams that have at least a .500 record as well being on the bottom half of the league in salaries. Baseball is not all about how much you spend on your team. Its where you spend your money on your team (strong starting pitching, key role players, good bullpen). The Yankees haven't won the World Series since 2000, and everyone knows that they are always #1 in payroll but at least a couple million. But there bullpen sucks (besides Rivera), they no longer have key role players (in the past they had Borsias, O'Neil, and Boone), their pitching staff is old and brittle. They spent a lot of money on a hand full of guys (A-Rod, Jeter, Abreu, Matsui, Giambi.....) If you look at the past couple of WS winners, you see that they have a well rounded team, not just an awesome offense.

Also, a little note on that year. The White Sox salary was $31M and the Pirates was $28M. The White Sox went to the playoffs had the second most wins in the majors with 95 and the Pirates had another losing season.

AZChiSoxFan
09-09-2008, 04:52 PM
Nothing justifies another work stoppage in my opinion. Personally I think fans would not come back as fast as they did after 94-95.

There is however three things MLB could do to solve the New York “problem” if they wanted to. I’m not a lawyer so don’t ask me about any legal ramifications.

1. MLB could put a 3rd team in the New York / New Jersey area. It could be an A.L. expansion team or a relocation of a current club.

MLB could also help finance construction of a new stadium so the club could begin play say in 2012 or 2013. They do this for any franchise by the way, pay for a percentage of the new construction.

This IMMEDIATELY de-values the Yankee (and Mets) franchises, lowers the value of the advertising deals, lowers the worth of the radio / TV contracts and lowers the numbers of fans. (The “new” franchise will get a share of the fan market and will also start getting advertisers / marketing opportunities of their own, that may have gone to the Yankees or Mets.)

Bottom line, they have less money (i.e. the Yankees and Mets) to work with.

2. MLB could tell owners like in Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Florida who apparently don’t want to compete and just subside off revenue sharing money and marketing deals, ‘you’re out…’ There’s plenty of Mark Cuban’s in the world who have billions of dollars and are willing to spend it taking on the ‘big boys.’

3. As PHG proposed MLB could move to a radical realignment system like in soccer in Europe where teams are grouped based on the previous year’s record.

Group A would be teams that won say 92 or more games. Group B, 82 or more, Group C…all the teams with losing records. Schedules are drawn up perhaps with some cross-over play from another group and “championship” series played out at the end (say top two finishers.)

No more A.L., no more N.L., no more worrying about how much someone spends. It’s all based on how many wins… period. Owners that don’t mind the embarrassment of playing in a lower division can stay there and whatever fans they have could still play for a “championship” against other like minded franchises. Plus you always have the “hope” of playing in a better league the next year.

Just some possible solutions, of course Proud To Be Your Bud won’t do anything anyway, probably just let it fester.

Lip


Lip, not that you or Bud asked my opinion, but I really like your #1 idea. I think it's a crock that MLB had to payoff that scumbag Angelos to put a team in DC. Obviously I'm not a lawyer either, but I don't understand why MLB can't put teams where they want to. I would love to see a team in northern NJ, or Brooklyn, or anywhere in the greater NY area. Heck, how about a team in Conn or another one in Philly. If the Yanks and Mets don't like a third team in NY, tell them they are free to move elsewhere.

I love your idea, but unfortunately I seriously doubt we will ever again see a third team in NY.

PKalltheway
09-09-2008, 05:58 PM
The NL is a joke and the pirates being the worst of the NL makes them the biggest joke in the world. I don't understand how it is possible for the Pirates to have that many consecutive losing seasons when they are a historic team. Many great moments from the past and great players have come from Pittsburgh but they can't produce in the dreadful national league. Take teams like the Seattle Mariners, Rangers, Orioles, Indians. They are playing in the American League and aren't the exact definition of loaded teams but find a way to compete.
The Pirates organization should be ashamed of themselves and I feel bad for their fans... I would probably be on a tirade to fire the manager at the moment.
I agree with you for the most part, but you can't honestly include the Orioles. They, along with the Pirates, are the only two teams that haven't had a winning season since the '90's ended.

PKalltheway
09-09-2008, 08:25 PM
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08252/910405-63.stm
This article mentions that the Phillies, between 1918-1948, had only one winning season. How is it that the Phils managed to stay in Philadelphia, but the A's did not?