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View Full Version : Why can't Danks go very many innings?


Whitesoxfan23
09-07-2008, 06:19 PM
I realize he throws alot of pitches, but so does Javy. Danks pitched well today, and has been great most of the year, but why can't he eat innings?

LITTLE NELL
09-07-2008, 06:24 PM
I realize he throws alot of pitches, but so does Javy. Danks pitched well today, and has been great most of the year, but why can't he eat innings?
There has to be some issue we are not aware of. Did'nt the Sox shut him down last year in early Sept?

wsf4l
09-07-2008, 06:30 PM
He's 23 and they dont want to ruin his arm

35th and Shields
09-07-2008, 06:32 PM
There has to be some issue we are not aware of. Did'nt the Sox shut him down last year in early Sept?

Yea they did but I'm pretty sure that was just because he had a tired arm. I really doubt there's any kind of injury but they may just be trying to limit the innings just to make sure he doesn't burn out like he did at the end of last year.

Dub25
09-07-2008, 06:33 PM
Last year at the point of shutdown was the most he pitched in pro ball and now this year is the same thing. My hope is he came further this year so maybe next year he will last the whole season. Then again, today he looked better. Maybe he will gain a second wind.

Daver
09-07-2008, 06:38 PM
I realize he throws alot of pitches, but so does Javy. Danks pitched well today, and has been great most of the year, but why can't he eat innings?


Because he pitches with his back and not his legs.

He is improving on it, but the process is not simple, and it affects other things, like his change up sailing the second half of the season.

LITTLE NELL
09-07-2008, 06:46 PM
Because he pitches with his back and not his legs.

He is improving on it, but the process is not simple, and it affects other things, like his change up sailing the second half of the season.
Good point, do any other oldtimers remember pitchers running on the warning track to build up the legs while batting practice was going on. Al Lopez and his great pitching coach Ray Berres were big proponents of that.
Nolan Ryan had the best mechanics of any pitcher and it started with the legs.

Lip Man 1
09-07-2008, 07:21 PM
Nell:

Tom Seaver. Absolutely perfect mechanics. Flawless.

Lip

btrain929
09-07-2008, 07:42 PM
I realize he throws alot of pitches, but so does Javy. Danks pitched well today, and has been great most of the year, but why can't he eat innings?

He's 23 and they dont want to ruin his arm

My guess is he CAN eat innings if it were up to him, but Ozzie isn't letting him do it because he is so young and doesn't want him tiring on him later in the year. It's not like Danks signals to Ozzie when he hits 100 pitches and says "I'm done, get me out of here." They are just being cautious, and I'm fine with that. It's a learning curve, and these past 2 years he's learning what it takes to last a whole season.

That's why KW went out and spent so much on the bullpen, to help guys like Floyd and Danks out incase they can't go 7-8 innings in August/September outings.

itsnotrequired
09-07-2008, 07:44 PM
probably misses his old glasses

shes
09-07-2008, 07:54 PM
Well we certainly don't want to smother him.

TDog
09-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Nell:

Tom Seaver. Absolutely perfect mechanics. Flawless.

Lip

I was thinking of Tom Seaver in particular. Seaver used to get a knee dirt pitching. He pitched with his legs as well as his arm.

It isn't like the Sox haven't been working with Danks. It also isn't that he always tires. Today I don't think he tired. It looked more like the Angels good hitters figured out how he was pitching them and he didn't adjust.

Getting Danks to go deep enough into games isn't simply going to be a matter of working him more innings every year.

Danks probably would have been better off spending last year in a full minor league season pitching complete games. He never pitched a complete game in the minor leagues. People are afraid to put too much strain on young pitchers' arms, but not conditioning them to pitch deep into games is turning them into five- and six-inning pitchers. Danks' low win total isn't a matter of tough luck. It's a matter of not pitching well enough long enough to get more wins.

Craig Grebeck
09-07-2008, 08:14 PM
I was thinking of Tom Seaver in particular. Seaver used to get a knee dirt pitching. He pitched with his legs as well as his arm.

It isn't like the Sox haven't been working with Danks. It also isn't that he always tires. Today I don't think he tired. It looked more like the Angels good hitters figured out how he was pitching them and he didn't adjust.

Getting Danks to go deep enough into games isn't simply going to be a matter of working him more innings every year.

Danks probably would have been better off spending last year in a full minor league season pitching complete games. He never pitched a complete game in the minor leagues. People are afraid to put too much strain on young pitchers' arms, but not conditioning them to pitch deep into games is turning them into five- and six-inning pitchers. Danks' low win total isn't a matter of tough luck. It's a matter of not pitching well enough long enough to get more wins.
It would be idiotic to make him throw complete games for an entire season when he's not conditioned to it. It'd destroy his arm. Please.

TDog
09-07-2008, 08:34 PM
It would be idiotic to make him throw complete games for an entire season when he's not conditioned to it. It'd destroy his arm. Please.

He wouldn't need to pitch complete games in every start, but there is no reason, if he is pitching well, there is no reason to take him out because he has reached 100 pitches. He also would be working on his mechanics. Complete games don't destroy pitchers' arms. They might destroy arms of pichers who have never been expected to go beyone six innings, but the lack of conditioning would be more to blame.

Part of the reason Danks can't go deeper into games is that he has never been expected to go deeper into games.

Daver
09-07-2008, 08:36 PM
It would be idiotic to make him throw complete games for an entire season when he's not conditioned to it. It'd destroy his arm. Please.

You base this on what?

HartmanSox
09-07-2008, 08:37 PM
He is simply running out of steam methinks

Eddo144
09-07-2008, 09:25 PM
itisnotrequired and shes:

You just made my day. That is my favorite exchange ever.

Craig Grebeck
09-07-2008, 10:45 PM
You base this on what?
If you want to condition Danks to throw deeper into games and raise his pitch counts, you don't just throw him on a "complete game" schedule in the minor leagues. There has to be some progression. I like the idea of making him more of an "innings-eater" pitcher, but there's better ways of doing it.

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 10:50 PM
If you want to condition Danks to throw deeper into games and raise his pitch counts, you don't just throw him on a "complete game" schedule in the minor leagues. There has to be some progression. I like the idea of making him more of an "innings-eater" pitcher, but there's better ways of doing it.

Of course there is.

doublem23
09-07-2008, 10:52 PM
I can't believe no one's mentioned the fact that the Sox score, on average score 4.13 runs in his starts, so almost every inning he's throwing a lot of high-stress situation pitches, which everyone knows takes more out of you. Almost every time someone gets on base, the game is at a critical juncture. I'm not relieving John of all the blame, but he does get a ludicrously low amount of run support from his offense for some reason.

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 10:53 PM
I can't believe no one's mentioned the fact that the Sox score, on average score 4.13 runs in his starts, so almost every inning he's throwing a lot of high-stress situation pitches, which everyone knows takes more out of you. Almost every time someone gets on base, the game is at a critical juncture. I'm not relieving John of all the blame, but he does get a ludicrously low amount of run support from his offense for some reason.

He puts a **** ton of runners on too.


Did you watch the game today?

Halos must've reached 3rd 4 times without scoring...

doublem23
09-07-2008, 10:56 PM
He puts a **** ton of runners on too.

Well, the Angels are a good team. Overall, coming into today, Danks' WHIP was just under 1.3 which isn't great, but it's not all that bad.

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 11:00 PM
Look - He had the team under pressure all day. From the start. The defense is on it's toes to hold runs.

Those same guys have to score too. We got solo bombs. We can't run, bunt, steal....

White Sox. You know.. is what it is...

BleacherBandit
09-07-2008, 11:02 PM
Look - He had the team under pressure all day. From the start. The defense is on it's toes to hold runs.

Those same guys have to score too. We got solo bombs.

White Sox. You know.. is what it is...

Hey, any day when Toby can produce some offense, I'll overlook any pitching woes....

Foulke You
09-07-2008, 11:02 PM
I can't believe no one's mentioned the fact that the Sox score, on average score 4.13 runs in his starts, so almost every inning he's throwing a lot of high-stress situation pitches, which everyone knows takes more out of you. Almost every time someone gets on base, the game is at a critical juncture. I'm not relieving John of all the blame, but he does get a ludicrously low amount of run support from his offense for some reason.
Good point. He also seems to draw the short straw as far as pitching matchups. Part of that lack of run support is because it seems like he is always going up against a Roy Halladay, Joe Saunders, or a Cliff Lee this year quite a bit more than some of our other guys.

Daver
09-07-2008, 11:02 PM
If you want to condition Danks to throw deeper into games and raise his pitch counts, you don't just throw him on a "complete game" schedule in the minor leagues. There has to be some progression. I like the idea of making him more of an "innings-eater" pitcher, but there's better ways of doing it.

You really have no idea what it takes to pitch a baseball do you?

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 11:04 PM
Hey, any day when Toby can produce some offense, I'll overlook any pitching woes....

What??? He hit a solo home run. His 2nd. Big ****ing deal.

BleacherBandit
09-07-2008, 11:06 PM
What??? He hit a solo home run. His 2nd. Big ****ing deal.
I said "some offense"...

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 11:07 PM
I said "some offense"...

And I said, "big deal".

:?:

:o:

What are you talking about?

BleacherBandit
09-07-2008, 11:08 PM
And I said, "big deal".

:?:

:o:

What are you talking about?
Yeah, it's kind of implying that even a solo home run is alot for Toby...

I think we can agree to that.

drewcifer
09-07-2008, 11:12 PM
Yeah, it's kind of implying that even a solo home run is alot for Toby...

I think we can agree to that.

Yes, Toby hit a HR. Super.

Craig Grebeck
09-07-2008, 11:19 PM
You really have no idea what it takes to pitch a baseball do you?
That's such horse****. Do you really want the Sox to have their pitchers increase innings totals rapidly in one season? I don't see what's wrong with having Danks gradually build up his arm strength.

whitesox901
09-08-2008, 10:31 AM
He's 23 and they dont want to ruin his arm

Good thing Dusty Baker isnt our manager!

Lefty34
09-10-2008, 05:05 PM
That's such horse****. Do you really want the Sox to have their pitchers increase innings totals rapidly in one season? I don't see what's wrong with having Danks gradually build up his arm strength.

Well when he was 23, Lefty Tyler started 34 games and gave 290.3 innings of work, so why can't Danks do it now? The difference, people are throwing a lot harder now with nasty breaking balls that put tremendous stress on elbows, not to mention that throwing over-handed is an unnatural motion. Also, Danks is 23 and left-handed and, pennant race or not, there should be no call for putting undue stress on what is a promising young (left-handed) talent.

I really don't get the people that get their panties in a knot when pitchers are on pitch counts or don't go as deep into games as ol' Lefty Tyler. Tim Lincecum and company have been dealing with the same crap in San Fransisco.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2008, 05:20 PM
Lefty:

There are many former major league pitchers (Jerry Koosman and Goose Gossage) to name two of them who feel the reason pitchers are so brittle in the first place is because they don't throw enough, are "babied" and have pitch counts.

Daver has followed this situation closely and can probably provide better reasonings as to why this is a bad idea. (i.e. pitch counts as a general rule.)

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2008, 05:43 PM
Lefty:

There are many former major league pitchers (Jerry Koosman and Goose Gossage) to name two of them who feel the reason pitchers are so brittle in the first place is because they don't throw enough, are "babied" and have pitch counts.Bert Blyleven goes off on rants about this on a fairly regular basis.

Lefty34
09-10-2008, 05:47 PM
Lip

Baseball Prospectus has done much work on their Pitcher Abuse Points statistic and their Category Starts metric, so...yeah, in your face.

Goose Gossage? Seriously? The guy broke the 200 IP mark once in his career, and was a reliever for a majority of his career. Who cares what he has to say on the issue of pitch counts?

And as for the rest of them, does anybody here think that the people paying these 7, 8 or 9 figure salaries would want to know the effects of throwing a lot of pitches?

People can say that pitchers can't go long into games because they are babied by pitch counts just as arbitrarily as I can say that they aren't. What difference does that make?

Lefty

Daver
09-10-2008, 07:10 PM
Lip

Baseball Prospectus has done much work on their Pitcher Abuse Points statistic and their Category Starts metric, so...yeah, in your face.

Goose Gossage? Seriously? The guy broke the 200 IP mark once in his career, and was a reliever for a majority of his career. Who cares what he has to say on the issue of pitch counts?

And as for the rest of them, does anybody here think that the people paying these 7, 8 or 9 figure salaries would want to know the effects of throwing a lot of pitches?

People can say that pitchers can't go long into games because they are babied by pitch counts just as arbitrarily as I can say that they aren't. What difference does that make?

Lefty

Please do not even think about bringing any of the contrived crap spewed by BP into something that is purely physical, it just makes you look like you are reaching because you have no understanding of what is actually involved, IE it makes you look silly.

The pitch count came into being for one reason, and one reason only, because pitching talent in an expanding league was becoming expensive, and the owners chose to take measures to "protect" their investments, even though it is against their better interest.

Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough, plain and simple. Do not mistake throw enough with pitch enough, there is a huge difference between the two. Pitchers should throw every day, with no exceptions, start with catch at thirty feet, and gradually increase the distance in ten throw increments till you are throwing long toss at 90 feet, and then reverse it back to thirty feet.

That method is not going to guarantee against injuries, but it is the best way to protect a pitcher from them, if you are not building the support muscles of the shoulder and the elbow you are sending pitchers out to hurt themselves.

Lefty34
09-10-2008, 07:23 PM
Please do not even think about bringing any of the contrived crap spewed by BP into something that is purely physical, it just makes you look like you are reaching because you have no understanding of what is actually involved, IE it makes you look silly.

The pitch count came into being for one reason, and one reason only, because pitching talent in an expanding league was becoming expensive, and the owners chose to take measures to "protect" their investments, even though it is against their better interest.

Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough, plain and simple. Do not mistake throw enough with pitch enough, there is a huge difference between the two. Pitchers should throw every day, with no exceptions, start with catch at thirty feet, and gradually increase the distance in ten throw increments till you are throwing long toss at 90 feet, and then reverse it back to thirty feet.

That method is not going to guarantee against injuries, but it is the best way to protect a pitcher from them, if you are not building the support muscles of the shoulder and the elbow you are sending pitchers out to hurt themselves.

I know about throwing everyday (who is the pitching coach on the Braves who has his pitchers do that?), but throwing has nothing to do with pitch counts. The discussion here, to me at least, is why Danks (and pitchers in general) can't go deep into games. Playing a little long toss on your third day of rest has not a thing to do with pitch counts. Pitch counts in games are needed/good because they keep young or recovering pitchers from damaging their shoulders and/or anything else. Pitching a baseball is a violent motion that generates a lot of torque on both your elbow and shoulder, and pitch counts help reduce the amount of times you do that violent motion.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I enjoy stats and what BP says/thinks about the game that I don't know baseball and don't know what I'm talking about. So maybe keeping a shorter leash on that "stats suck and I'm right" montra would be a good idea because it just makes you look like you are being arbitrary and ignorant because you don't want to wrap your brain around a different idea, IE it makes you look foolish.

champagne030
09-10-2008, 07:41 PM
I know about throwing everyday (who is the pitching coach on the Braves who has his pitchers do that?), but throwing has nothing to do with pitch counts. The discussion here, to me at least, is why Danks (and pitchers in general) can't go deep into games. Playing a little long toss on your third day of rest has not a thing to do with pitch counts. Pitch counts in games are needed/good because they keep young or recovering pitchers from damaging their shoulders and/or anything else. Pitching a baseball is a violent motion that generates a lot of torque on both your elbow and shoulder, and pitch counts help reduce the amount of times you do that violent motion.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I enjoy stats and what BP says/thinks about the game that I don't know baseball and don't know what I'm talking about. So maybe keeping a shorter leash on that "stats suck and I'm right" montra would be a good idea because it just makes you look like you are being arbitrary and ignorant because you don't want to wrap your brain around a different idea, IE it makes you look foolish.

I enjoy statistical analysis too, but PAP is complete bull****.

It seems the difference is that you favor the "baby'em" method to save wear and tear and others, me included, favor building up the muscles in and around the arm.

Saying that pitching involves a violent motion and should be reduced at all costs sounds silly, IE that you believe in the term PAP. :shrug:

FedEx227
09-10-2008, 07:50 PM
I know about throwing everyday (who is the pitching coach on the Braves who has his pitchers do that?), but throwing has nothing to do with pitch counts.

You're thinking of Leo Mazzone. He was pitching coach for the Braves for many years, became Baltimore's pitching coach in 2005 and since has been fired, he's now a color commentator.

Daver
09-10-2008, 07:52 PM
I know about throwing everyday (who is the pitching coach on the Braves who has his pitchers do that?), but throwing has nothing to do with pitch counts. The discussion here, to me at least, is why Danks (and pitchers in general) can't go deep into games. Playing a little long toss on your third day of rest has not a thing to do with pitch counts. Pitch counts in games are needed/good because they keep young or recovering pitchers from damaging their shoulders and/or anything else. Pitching a baseball is a violent motion that generates a lot of torque on both your elbow and shoulder, and pitch counts help reduce the amount of times you do that violent motion.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I enjoy stats and what BP says/thinks about the game that I don't know baseball and don't know what I'm talking about. So maybe keeping a shorter leash on that "stats suck and I'm right" montra would be a good idea because it just makes you look like you are being arbitrary and ignorant because you don't want to wrap your brain around a different idea, IE it makes you look foolish.

You fail to understand again. Throw every day, at least one hundred throws from varying distances, not throw long toss two days after a start, every day. Pitch counts are meaningless, and based on an arbitrary number based on nothing, Nardi Contreas is proof they don't work. A good pitching coach knows when a pitcher is getting tired and losing his stuff, and when to call for him to get pulled. Pitch counts are a crutch for bad coaches to justify their actions to the press, you'll note Don Cooper has never been seen with a pitch clicker in his hand, he doesn't need one. Rick Pederson was one of the best pitching coaches I have ever seen, and he laughs at the mere thought of using a pitch count, it is not a tool, it is a crutch.

sox1970
09-10-2008, 07:53 PM
You fail to understand again. Throw every day, at least one hundred throws from varying distances, not throw long toss two days after a start, every day. Pitch counts are meaningless, and based on an arbitrary number based on nothing, Nardi Contreas is proof they don't work. A good pitching coach knows when a pitcher is getting tired and losing his stuff, and when to call for him to get pulled. Pitch counts are a crutch for bad coaches to justify their actions to the press, you'll note Don Cooper has never been seen with a pitch clicker in his hand, he doesn't need one. Rick Pederson was one of the best pitching coaches I have ever seen, and he laughs at the mere thought of using a pitch count, it is not a tool, it is a crutch.

Except when he threw one and pulled his hammy?

FedEx227
09-10-2008, 08:00 PM
Except when he threw one and pulled his hammy?

:DJ
"Uh-oh!"

BleacherBandit
09-10-2008, 08:13 PM
Except when he threw one and pulled his hammy?
God that was funny. They should have put him on the DL.