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dougs78
05-14-2002, 09:31 PM
Just sitting around theorizing while watching the sportsline ticker go for tonights game. What I'm looking at is whether our team is really a whole lot worse without ray durham. Tony G is proven himself to be very dependable at the plate and has always been good in the field. I'm wondering if maybe KW is taking a look and saying that maybe it might be in the Sox best interests to trade Ray Ray to get a pitcher.

The real problem with dealing Ray to get pitching is that becuase of his contract situation, he would almost necessarily have to be traded to a contender interested in winning it this year. These are not the type of teams who are shopping strong, consistent veteran pitchers. Maybe there is something out there that I am not fathoming, I don't know. Just wanted to throw that out there as a possibility and get some opinions.

delben91
05-14-2002, 10:17 PM
I recall hearing that ray had been battling a sore hand a week or so ago, so it could be related to that. As far as trading ray and putting tony in full time, I don't know. Tony's really hot right now, but you'd think that by age 30, if he was really as good a hitter all the time as he is now, he wouldn't be a utility man for the sox, he'd still be starting on the Braves or whereever. If Durham goes, I'd be willing to be that tony would platoon with hummel or willie harris. But that's just me. If trading ray can get us a consistent pitcher, I say go for it, but I won't hold my breath for a trade right now.

Chisox_cali
05-14-2002, 10:21 PM
Not to mention that Wee Willie is tearin it up in AAA and he could platoon with Graffy, if needed.

voodoochile
05-14-2002, 10:45 PM
Durham is a very tradable commodity right now... Heck, if Graff falters, they could bring up Crede, move Jose to 2B and leave Harris and Hummel in AAA for the rest of the year to fight it out.

Sorry, Ray Ray, me thinks your days on the southside are numbered...

:ray
"I think I'm going to like LA... I just hope they don't trade me to Montreal or Detroit..."

Garrison
05-14-2002, 10:47 PM
Wow! He's 4-4 tonight with two dingers and six ribbies. What a performance. He was solid in the field too. Unlucky to pick up that error which I thought should have been on Jose. At this point I honestly wouldn't mind starting or platooning Graffy in at second and trading Ray-Ray. I like Durham, don't get me wrong, but with Graffanino playing well like he is and plenty of 2B talent in the minors, I think we're set at that position. Go out and trade Durham for a starter. DJ said that Ray has a bone bruise on his hand and that's why he wasn't starting. So maybe there is nothing doing.

kermittheefrog
05-14-2002, 10:56 PM
I really like Graffanino. I think he could be a starting second baseman. In the last three years he's posted OBPs of... .370... .363 and... .364. He's only gotten one chance to start in his career, in 1998 with Atlanta and he didn't come through but he's played so well since he really deserves another one. He's just been stuck in the Sox utility role behind Durham.

Chisox_cali
05-14-2002, 11:02 PM
Graffy Starter, Wee Willie as a back-up. I wouldn't mind that.

WinningUgly!
05-14-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Durham is a very tradable commodity right now... Heck, if Graff falters, they could bring up Crede, move Jose to 2B and leave Harris and Hummel in AAA for the rest of the year to fight it out.

Sorry, Ray Ray, me thinks your days on the southside are numbered...

:ray
"I think I'm going to like LA... I just hope they don't trade me to Montreal or Detroit..."

I like the idea of Crede at 3B, & Jose at 2B. I'm just not sure I like moving Jose to a new position in the middle of the season. Would have been nice to deal Ray Ray in the offseason for some pitching to at least give Valentin a full spring to adjust to 2B.

Garrison
05-14-2002, 11:27 PM
I'd love to give Tony G a chance to start. He's played very well all season so far and also for the past few seasons with us. Ray-Ray is expendable now as far as I'm concerned. Go out and get some pitching for him. We are set at second base. LOL Graffy for president. I loved the curtain call! :cool:

Daver
05-14-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Garrison
I'd love to give Tony G a chance to start. He's played very well all season so far and also for the past few seasons with us. Ray-Ray is expendable now as far as I'm concerned. Go out and get some pitching for him. We are set at second base. LOL Graffy for president. I loved the curtain call! :cool:

Tony also leads the team in errors........

Kilroy
05-14-2002, 11:39 PM
Excluding the Durham hand injury theory, doesn't it make more sense that the reason we're seeing so much Tony G is that he's the one being looked over for a trade?

Not completely out of the question, is it??

WinningUgly!
05-14-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Excluding the Durham hand injury theory, doesn't it make more sense that the reason we're seeing so much Tony G is that he's the one being looked over for a trade?

Not completely out of the question, is it??

That wouldn't be such a bad thing, would it? His stock will never be as high as it is right now. :D:

kermittheefrog
05-15-2002, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Excluding the Durham hand injury theory, doesn't it make more sense that the reason we're seeing so much Tony G is that he's the one being looked over for a trade?

Not completely out of the question, is it??

I doubt it, you don't work up a lot of value as a utility man even if, as I believe, Graffanino should get a shot to start. I think it's more likely Ray is on the block and the Sox want to know if Graff can play second fulltime. Right now neither Hummel nor Harris is tearing it up in the minors. In fact they've both been pretty weak.

voodoochile
05-15-2002, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I doubt it, you don't work up a lot of value as a utility man even if, as I believe, Graffanino should get a shot to start. I think it's more likely Ray is on the block and the Sox want to know if Graff can play second fulltime. Right now neither Hummel nor Harris is tearing it up in the minors. In fact they've both been pretty weak.

Have to agree with Kermit here. Durham goes if anyone does. He has the most value, the highest salary AND he is a FA at the end of the year. Graff is still in his arbitration years, isn't he? Heck if Hummel and Harris falter, Graff could start next year too. Hummel has the markings of being able to be a utility man anyway. He has already played SS and 2B at the minor league level. He isn't a great SS, but then again, neither is Graff, whose best position definitely is 2B, IMO.

Daver
05-15-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Have to agree with Kermit here. Durham goes if anyone does. He has the most value, the highest salary AND he is a FA at the end of the year. Graff is still in his arbitration years, isn't he? Heck if Hummel and Harris falter, Graff could start next year too. Hummel has the markings of being able to be a utility man anyway. He has already played SS and 2B at the minor league level. He isn't a great SS, but then again, neither is Graff, whose best position definitely is 2B, IMO.

Graffinino signed a contract as a FA.

voodoochile
05-15-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by daver


Graffinino signed a contract as a FA.

You saying he is unrestricted after this year? How long is he signed for? I thought I remember reading he signed a couple year deal...

WinningUgly!
05-15-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


You saying he is unrestricted after this year? How long is he signed for? I thought I remember reading he signed a couple year deal...

He signed a 2 year deal in December... (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbcong.htm)

bc2k
05-15-2002, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


I like the idea of Crede at 3B, & Jose at 2B. I'm just not sure I like moving Jose to a new position in the middle of the season. Would have been nice to deal Ray Ray in the offseason for some pitching to at least give Valentin a full spring to adjust to 2B.

I like that idea as well. Jose would have a lot less throwing errors from second. Make that change next spring like you said. Crede needs to be at 3b next year, I say resign Clayton at SS, and Jose at 2b. I believe 2003 is Jose's last year under contract so Harris can have the 2b job in 2004.

What a game by Tony G. I don't understand why everyone here is spelling his name wrong. The correct spelling of Tony's last name is Graffaninose .

Seriously, since last season I have questioned Tony's errors and overall defense but I think that is caused because of not playing everyday and at multiple positions. I guess that is what a utility infielder is supposed to do, and I think he does a damn fine job and bet he would be even better defensively if he is givin a starting job.

ode to veeck
05-15-2002, 01:53 AM
Jose would have a lot less throwing errors from second

cept if there's a manos bobble (never happens) , he'll probably kill paulie when he unleashes his rocket toss on the close play ;-)


"guys, how can you talk like this now that I've got a chance to hit 2nd again!?!"

Kilroy
05-15-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I doubt it, you don't work up a lot of value as a utility man even if, as I believe, Graffanino should get a shot to start. I think it's more likely Ray is on the block and the Sox want to know if Graff can play second fulltime. Right now neither Hummel nor Harris is tearing it up in the minors. In fact they've both been pretty weak.

I've never really heard of a team that's already signed a player letting that guy play to see if trading another guy would be ok. They already know what he can do. If they don't, they have no business signing the guy to a 2 year deal like they did w/ Graff. Usually, you see the extended PT for the guy on the bench because the team interested wants to see what the guy can do.

If there was such a scenario playing out, I'd imagine it would be with a team looking to dump salary. We'd trade Graff plus something for a pitcher, they then move some other high priced infielder and give his spot to Graff.

That's the way I was seeing it last night coming home from the game, but I was damn tired.

Soxboyrob
05-15-2002, 09:35 AM
The thing I like the most about Graff is the fact that he always seems to be the same hitter. I don't notice him going into slumps. I don't notice him hitting the cover off of the ball (yesterday notwithstanding). He gets good at-bats, takes good swings and generally hits the ball fairly hard. It's nice to see that. I've gotten so used to Ray and his prolonged slumps, followed by a week of Ray hitting 5 HR's in one week. It's hard to know which Ray is coming to the park each day but you always know which Tony is going to be there.

All that said, Tony is truly a bad defensive player. He's least harmful to the Sox as a 2nd baseman, but even there he makes Ray look like a good defender. Graff is an excellent backup...as good as any out there, but he probably belongs as only a backup. Trade Ray and bring up Wee Willie and let him Graffy and him split time? Might work.

soxtalker
05-15-2002, 10:58 AM
Let's assume that we keep Durham through this season, and he then goes somewhere else. Do we get a draft pick as compensation? Is this guaranteed, or does Ray have to achieve some target level of play?

Soxboyrob
05-15-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Let's assume that we keep Durham through this season, and he then goes somewhere else. Do we get a draft pick as compensation? Is this guaranteed, or does Ray have to achieve some target level of play?

First, we'd have to offer him arbitration at the end of the year and he'd have to refuse it. Then, he'd have had to have met some target level of play. It seems to me that there are different target levels which would then award the Sox a sandwich draft pick in a draft position that would be dependent upon the performance of the player. Maybe I'm confusing NFL w/ the MLB

Randar68
05-15-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Have to agree with Kermit here. Durham goes if anyone does. He has the most value, the highest salary AND he is a FA at the end of the year. Graff is still in his arbitration years, isn't he? Heck if Hummel and Harris falter, Graff could start next year too. Hummel has the markings of being able to be a utility man anyway. He has already played SS and 2B at the minor league level. He isn't a great SS, but then again, neither is Graff, whose best position definitely is 2B, IMO.

While I wasn't all that confident in moving Hummel back to SS, he has fewer errors there this season than he did in a similar number of games at 2B last year. He has Royce-like Range but is steady and can hit. Anyone here want to see that? I know I do. He also turns 2 pretty darn well.

Randar68
05-15-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Let's assume that we keep Durham through this season, and he then goes somewhere else. Do we get a draft pick as compensation? Is this guaranteed, or does Ray have to achieve some target level of play?

Well, under current CBA rules the following must happen:

1) We must offer arbitration and Ray must refuse (Club and player/agent often agree to this ahead of time)
2) Ray would certainly be a class A free agent given his All-Star appearances and looking at last year's list of losers getting classified as Class A (FA's ranked by Elias Sports Bureau)
3) If the signing team does not draft in the top 15, we would get their first round pick and a Sandwich selection at the end of the first round (order of these based on player rankings)
4) If the signing team drafts in the top 15, we get the first round Sandwich pick as above and the signing team's second round selection.

For example:
We lost our 1st rounder last draft for signing Sandy Alomar, but we drafted Wyatt Allen and Kris Honel (16th overall) with picks obtained for losing Charles Johnson.

More info on this and the draft order for this year, from BA:

"Teams receive compensation in the form of draft picks based on the free agent they lose, according to the free-agent rating system established by Elias Sports Bureau: a Type A free agent ranked among the top 30 percent of major leaguers at his position, a Type B free agent ranked among the top half (but not the top 30 percent) of major leaguers at his position, and a Type C free agent ranked among the bottom half of major leaguers at his position.

A team that loses a Type A free agent gets the first-round pick of the team that signs the free agent and a supplemental pick after the first round. A team that loses a Type B free agent receives only the signing team's top pick.

In both cases, a team selecting in the first half of the draft rotation cannot lose its first-round pick. Such a team would instead lose its second-round pick.

Also, teams that sign multiple Type A or B free agents continue to lose picks based on the number of players they sign. The pecking order for compensation is based on where the free agents ranked in the Elias ratings.

The Rangers provide an excellent example of the process this year, having signed four Type A or B free agents in the offseason. Because they are at No. 10 in the draft rotation, the Rangers will not lose their first-round pick.

Instead, they will give their second-round pick to the Dodgers, who lost righthander Chan Ho Park. The Dodgers get the pick because Park is the highest-rated free agent Texas signed. The Rangers will lose their third-round pick to the Indians (for Juan Gonzalez), their fourth-round pick to the Cubs (for Todd Van Poppel) and their fifth-round pick to the Rockies (for Jay Powell).

In other words, Texas will pick 10th overall and not again until pick No. 172.

Only once in draft history has a team lost four premium picks. That occurred in 1981, when the Angels selected shortstop Dick Schofield in the first round and outfielder Devon White with their next pick--in the sixth round.

The Athletics will be the biggest beneficiaries of draft-pick compensation this year. They'll have seven of the first 39 picks--two each for Johnny Damon (Red Sox), Jason Giambi (Yankees) and Jason Isringhausen (Cardinals), in addition to their own first-round pick.

A team that loses a Type C free agent receives a supplemental pick between the second and third rounds. Only one such player, outfielder Marty Cordova, was signed this offseason, giving the Indians the 72nd overall pick.

The only other compensation picks come for teams that do not sign first-round picks. Last year, the Reds did not sign lefthander Jeremy Sowers and the Indians did not sign righthander Alan Horne, so they will have extra picks this year.

Following is the order of selection (with adjustments) for the first five rounds and supplemental rounds."

wulfy
05-15-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

Right now neither Hummel nor Harris is tearing it up in the minors. In fact they've both been pretty weak.

Harris is hitting .314 in Charlotte with 15 SBs. He does need to improve his K to BB ratio (28 to 9), however. 4 triples, as well.

raul12
05-15-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Have to agree with Kermit here. Durham goes if anyone does. He has the most value, the highest salary AND he is a FA at the end of the year. Graff is still in his arbitration years, isn't he? Heck if Hummel and Harris falter, Graff could start next year too. Hummel has the markings of being able to be a utility man anyway. He has already played SS and 2B at the minor league level. He isn't a great SS, but then again, neither is Graff, whose best position definitely is 2B, IMO.

if durham is a FA at the end of this year, he'd pretty much just be a rent-a-player. the only teams going for rent-a-players are contenders. I think we all agree that we want a quality starting pitcher....would a contender be willing to trade a solid pitcher for a 2B? I would think not, but maybe I'm missing something.

i do agree that if anyone goes, it should be him....maybe CLee, but his trade value is not nearly as high as durham's.

Randar68
05-15-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by raul12


if durham is a FA at the end of this year, he'd pretty much just be a rent-a-player. the only teams going for rent-a-players are contenders. I think we all agree that we want a quality starting pitcher....would a contender be willing to trade a solid pitcher for a 2B? I would think not, but maybe I'm missing something.

i do agree that if anyone goes, it should be him....maybe CLee, but his trade value is not nearly as high as durham's.

3-way trades are always a possibility...

raul12
05-15-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


3-way are always a possibility...

if only that were true in other parts of life...

alohafri
05-15-2002, 01:49 PM
Anyone think that the cute and cuddlies are looking for someone to babysit 2nd base until Bobby Hill is really ready? There is a certain disgruntled starting pitcher from the northside that might look pretty good in black pinstripes as a number 3 starter.

raul12
05-15-2002, 02:10 PM
with wood's mechanics...it seems as if he is an injury waiting to happen.

voodoochile
05-15-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by raul12
with wood's mechanics...it seems as if he is an injury waiting to happen.

Yeah, but what would it cost us? If he is the only option out there, I would take it, but if the flubbies are going to trade him why wouldn't they trade Leiber instead? They can't believe that team is going to compete in the next few years...

raul12
05-15-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, but what would it cost us? If he is the only option out there, I would take it, but if the flubbies are going to trade him why wouldn't they trade Leiber instead? They can't believe that team is going to compete in the next few years...

we're talking about the flubbies here--the eternal optimists who believe that every next year is their year! of course they believe that they're going to compete next year. reality dictates otherwise, but flubbies have never been known as realists.

re: woods--i'm just hesitant about woods b/c i don't want another david wells.

voodoochile
05-15-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by raul12


we're talking about the flubbies here--the eternal optimists who believe that every next year is their year! of course they believe that they're going to compete next year. reality dictates otherwise, but flubbies have never been known as realists.

re: woods--i'm just hesitant about woods b/c i don't want another david wells.

Wood (No 'S') is a fan favorite and is much younger than Boomer. Not sure that Nardi is the right man to correct his mechanical problems though.

Eventually the team is going to have to wake up and face reality. They are not good. They have a lousy, me-first attitude, fostered by the organizations decision to focus on "fun at the ballpark" instead of winning, ShamMEMEME's showboat attitude, McWhiff's Florida dreaming and an extreme lack of position talent. Something is going to have to give, or they are going to start losing the casual fans who really do care about winning and don't care what uniform the team is wearing. These are the people who jumped on the Bears bandwagon in the 80's, the Sox bandwagon in the early 90's and the Bull's bandwagon thereafter. They like to watch winners and they will start to flow our way later this year, if the Sox can prove they are ready to make a move. 2 times in 3 years is no longer a fluke in anyone's eyes.

The flubbies may be forced to dump some payroll and Leiber may want to play for a winner. Lee and Rowand and/or a prospect should get it done.

raul12
05-15-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Wood (No 'S') is a fan favorite and is much younger than Boomer. Not sure that Nardi is the right man to correct his mechanical problems though.

Eventually the team is going to have to wake up and face reality. They are not good. They have a lousy, me-first attitude, fostered by the organizations decision to focus on "fun at the ballpark" instead of winning, ShamMEMEME's showboat attitude, McWhiff's Florida dreaming and an extreme lack of position talent. Something is going to have to give, or they are going to start losing the casual fans who really do care about winning and don't care what uniform the team is wearing. These are the people who jumped on the Bears bandwagon in the 80's, the Sox bandwagon in the early 90's and the Bull's bandwagon thereafter. They like to watch winners and they will start to flow our way later this year, if the Sox can prove they are ready to make a move. 2 times in 3 years is no longer a fluke in anyone's eyes.

The flubbies may be forced to dump some payroll and Leiber may want to play for a winner. Lee and Rowand and/or a prospect should get it done.

whoops, thinking of a different wood for a second. anyways, i'd love to have lieber on the squad. he's pitched a ton of innings the last few years, but his work load would definitely decrease if we made the move south due to JM's quick hook. if we had lieber, who would be the ace? stay with buerhle or go with the veteran?

voodoochile
05-15-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by raul12


whoops, thinking of a different wood for a second. anyways, i'd love to have lieber on the squad. he's pitched a ton of innings the last few years, but his work load would definitely decrease if we made the move south due to JM's quick hook. if we had lieber, who would be the ace? stay with buerhle or go with the veteran?

I think that would depend on the way the end of the season goes. The only time that becomes an issue would be in the playoffs. So far I'd go with Buehrle, for team unity, but if he struggles at all in the second half and Leiber lights it up, then who knows...

bjmarte
05-15-2002, 05:00 PM
I'd take Leiber but I don't want Wood. The Scrubs would never give him up and if they did it would cost us too much talent. And besides that I want him to be on the Scrubs when his arm finally falls of. Maybe instead of firing Nardi we could just send him north to finish the job.