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View Full Version : KW looking like Genius now with TCQ out


PennStater98r
09-06-2008, 12:27 AM
The Griffey trade is one I am thrilled was made now. I know that he's struggled since he's been here, but to have his threat in our lineup without TCQ . . . well it just stings less knowing we have Swish, Dye and Griff.

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 09:22 AM
The Griffey trade is one I am thrilled was made now. I know that he's struggled since he's been here, but to have his threat in our lineup without TCQ . . . well it just stings less knowing we have Swish, Dye and Griff.

Don't forget Konerko's hot bat since the Griffey trade. If KW doesn't get GM of the year this year, it'll be a total rip off.

Billy Ashley
09-06-2008, 09:25 AM
Don't forget Konerko's hot bat since the Griffey trade. If KW doesn't get GM of the year this year, it'll be a total rip off.

He's had a great year but I'd argue he's merely on of the several qualified candidates this year. Friedman, Smith, Epstein,and Williams all deserve a bit of recognition. All of them have their stronger points and all of them have their drawbacks.

Also, I don't know how Konerko hitting all of a sudden makes him a good candidate. I'd argue getting a solid second basemen for next to nothing, stealing Quentin from the D'backs and acquiring Swisher, Linebrink and so on has more to do with why he's been very good this season.

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 11:00 AM
He's had a great year but I'd argue he's merely on of the several qualified candidates this year. Friedman, Smith, Epstein,and Williams all deserve a bit of recognition. All of them have their stronger points and all of them have their drawbacks.

Also, I don't know how Konerko hitting all of a sudden makes him a good candidate. I'd argue getting a solid second basemen for next to nothing, stealing Quentin from the D'backs and acquiring Swisher, Linebrink and so on has more to do with why he's been very good this season.

I don't think those other GM's made nearly as many "under the radar" deals as KW's in what's becoming a KW trait. We certainly got lucky with how TCQ and Alexi made the lineup but, at the same time, KW wanted them badly all along; more than any other GM. Rebuilding our bullpen with Linebrink and Dotel when there was so little to chose from last winter was also very impressive. His other moves from last year have also been huge this year which should be considered in the voting. It's easy to sign the big star with unlimited resources as some other GM's have. KW is the master of the overlooked deals. Our weak minors systems is his only blemish but we've been a contender for most of his reign so he's making it work. Perhaps this dicussion belongs in the other thread on KW.

My Konerko statement is totally unrelated to my KW statement. I was just commenting on PennSt's relief of the other bats in the lineup.

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 11:03 AM
Perhaps this dicussion belongs in the other thread on KW.



Oops, can't see any other KW thread at this time.

FedEx227
09-06-2008, 11:07 AM
Don't forget Konerko's hot bat since the Griffey trade. If KW doesn't get GM of the year this year, it'll be a total rip off.

Tough to not go with Andrew Friedman though, worst to first.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2008, 11:24 AM
Tough to not go with Andrew Friedman though, worst to first.Which would be the same as them screwing over KW and giving it to Shapiro in 2005. They went from 4th to 2nd (not as glorious), but all the GM work was done before the season. All Shapiro did in the previous offseason was get Millwood. Likewise, all the Rays' GM did this offseason was trade Young for Garza and and sign Percival, no? The Garza trade was huge, but that team is where it is because of players maturing, not a great offseason.

Billy Ashley
09-06-2008, 11:28 AM
I don't think those other GM's made nearly as many "under the radar" deals as KW's in what's becoming a KW trait. We certainly got lucky with how TCQ and Alexi made the lineup but, at the same time, KW wanted them badly all along; more than any other GM. Rebuilding our bullpen with Linebrink and Dotel when there was so little to chose from last winter was also very impressive. His other moves from last year have also been huge this year which should be considered in the voting. It's easy to sign the big star with unlimited resources as some other GM's have. KW is the master of the overlooked deals. Our weak minors systems is his only blemish but we've been a contender for most of his reign so he's making it work. Perhaps this dicussion belongs in the other thread on KW.

My Konerko statement is totally unrelated to my KW statement. I was just commenting on PennSt's relief of the other bats in the lineup.

I wouldn't say that the Linebrink deal was overlooked. It was criticized by many, including myself. While it's been great thus far, I'd still be weary of that second year in the deal. Regardless though, he's had a very good off season.

His biggest blemish thus far is certainly the farm. However, that is of course not entirely his fault. The responsibility does in the end fall with him, but there are people more knowledgeable in regards to player development than him, and they are typically the ones who likely influence the last several weakish drafts.

I'd also argue that he's been incredibly fortunate (as you seem to agree with) as well as effective this season. Danks seems to have shed his issues and emerged as a legit number 2 fringe number 1. Should he remain healthy, that trade may go down as a big screw up for the Rangers. Floyd has somehow had tremendous results while putting up some rather pedestrian totals in terms of K's, K/BB and so on.

I'm not making these points to argue he shouldn't be in contention- he absolutely should be. However, it's easy to overlook how much Boston has overcome this season in regards to injuries and scandal. Additionally, who aside from the people at BP thought the Rays would be above average this season? No one though they'd be winning 95 games though. They've taken some smart gambles and surrounded an incredibly talented and young core with some solid veteran contributers over the past several years.

The funniest thing about the GM of the year award is that one year is way too short of a time period to see how an organization shift in philosophy is working. To me, Williams hasn't done much to change his approach. He still is aggressive and willing to gamble on high reward moderate risk guys more than the average GM. This approach has worked out well for him, and as a result he's one of the better GMs in all of baseball.

lukeman89
09-06-2008, 11:30 AM
he should win gm of the year just for saying what he said about the tigers getting cabrera and willis "it just puts them in a better position to compete with us"

LJS1993
09-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Acquiring Griffey was good insurance that's for sure.

cws05champ
09-06-2008, 11:44 AM
Which would be the same as them screwing over KW and giving it to Shapiro in 2005. They went from 4th to 2nd (not as glorious), but all the GM work was done before the season. All Shapiro did in the previous offseason was get Millwood. Likewise, all the Rays' GM did this offseason was trade Young for Garza and and sign Percival, no? The Garza trade was huge, but that team is where it is because of players maturing, not a great offseason.
That was their major moves. I agree that KW should be at or near the top of the voting this year. How many times do you trade for an MVP candidate that leads the league in HR's for and A ball player, and acquire a ROY cadidate for nothing.
And if they are going to judge it on some of the moves a year before(like Shapiro) then does not getting Danks and Floyd count?

One thing is for sure, the future looks a whole lot brighter with TCQ, Alexei, Danks, Floyd on our team.

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 12:15 PM
Tough to not go with Andrew Friedman though, worst to first.

So true, Friedman will probably win it. But my problem with that is that he didn't have to work at it nearly as much as KW did. Getting a #1,2, or 3 pick for 10+ years, they should have done this turnaround years ago. It was inevitable for them someday. In many ways, Freidman was just sitting in the chair when it finally happened. In only his 3rd year, many of his players were in the org before he arrived. He's made a couple of nice moves this year, though. The MN trade was especially good for them.

But KW worked a lot harder this past year, He had to rebuild with his hustle, brains, determination, tenacity, and gut instinct AND with a cash limit (not unlike Freidman but unlike some other GM's). He turned defeats into small victories; i.e. Hunter vs Swisher. Rebuilding our bullpen with Linebrink and Dotel in a lean offseason for relievers was impressive. He's taken the much harder road to success. Also, our turnaround has been pretty impressive, too, so far. We were a mess at the end of last year. But there will be too many voters that don't squat about baseball and TB is the "pretty baby" story this year. Losing Quentin will hurt his chances, too. What a story that would have been had TCQ won the MVP and Alexi the ROTY. Heck, they didn't give it to him in 2005 so I guess he won't get it this year, either, even if we make the playoffs. Besides, he's the White Sox GM....eeeeewwwwwww!!!!! LOL

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 12:19 PM
One thing is for sure, the future looks a whole lot brighter with TCQ, Alexei, Danks, Floyd on our team.

And where would we be without them this year? Gulp!

champagne030
09-06-2008, 12:22 PM
Kenny looks great for getting Grif, but he needs a box of Depends for failing to help the pitching staff....

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't say that the Linebrink deal was overlooked. It was criticized by many, including myself. While it's been great thus far, I'd still be weary of that second year in the deal. Regardless though, he's had a very good off season.

His biggest blemish thus far is certainly the farm. However, that is of course not entirely his fault. The responsibility does in the end fall with him, but there are people more knowledgeable in regards to player development than him, and they are typically the ones who likely influence the last several weakish drafts.

I'd also argue that he's been incredibly fortunate (as you seem to agree with) as well as effective this season. Danks seems to have shed his issues and emerged as a legit number 2 fringe number 1. Should he remain healthy, that trade may go down as a big screw up for the Rangers. Floyd has somehow had tremendous results while putting up some rather pedestrian totals in terms of K's, K/BB and so on.

I'm not making these points to argue he shouldn't be in contention- he absolutely should be. However, it's easy to overlook how much Boston has overcome this season in regards to injuries and scandal. Additionally, who aside from the people at BP thought the Rays would be above average this season? No one though they'd be winning 95 games though. They've taken some smart gambles and surrounded an incredibly talented and young core with some solid veteran contributers over the past several years.

The funniest thing about the GM of the year award is that one year is way too short of a time period to see how an organization shift in philosophy is working. To me, Williams hasn't done much to change his approach. He still is aggressive and willing to gamble on high reward moderate risk guys more than the average GM. This approach has worked out well for him, and as a result he's one of the better GMs in all of baseball.

Linebrink: "overlooked" or "criticized" comes down to the same end result - it wasn't hailed. And the GM award doesn't take future years into consideration. It's what have they (GM's) done to succeed this year.

The farm: But he's made it work at the MLB level for the most part. In the end, that's all that really matters.

Being fortunate: For sure, but it seems to follow his decisions around for the most part. It's a consistent track record for KW. Ozzie, Coop (best PC in MLB), Walker, and staff, including Herm, should get some credit here, too, for getting the best out of a lot of players that didn't do much before arriving and/or leaving.

Danks & Floyd: What Danks issues do you other than the typical heavy innings for a young starter last year? Hopefully not repeating as we speak. Floyd's overall numbers/stats are very solid - not sure what you mean here. He's also pitched incredibly when we needed him the most (no jinx here). His "deer in the headlights" syndrome seems to be fading away.

Over all we agree. KW, for the most part, has "It". I also think he rubs some people in the business the wrong way with his aggressiveness and ability to make his rivals look like fools, at times. It won't be long, if its not happening already, that others will keep a tab on him and eye who he's interested in.

JermaineDye05
09-06-2008, 12:50 PM
Don't forget Konerko's hot bat since the Griffey trade. If KW doesn't get GM of the year this year, it'll be a total rip off.

Kenny will lose, Mark Shapiro will get it again. But it's okay cause we will have yet another World Series title to compensate for Kenny losing Executive of the year.

:cool:

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 12:50 PM
Kenny looks great for getting Grif, but he needs a box of Depends for failing to help the pitching staff....

We don't know if he didn't try. Some deals have to be rejected.

TDog
09-06-2008, 01:33 PM
Earlier this season, I heard a sportswriter talking on KNBR in San Francisco about Dye being an MVP candidate that will be overlooked because of Quentin. Acquiring Quentin and Ramirez was described as brilliant by Kenny Williams. But the people on the program suggested that Quentin was Williams' "get out of jail free card" that he can use to defend his bad moves, which they believed were signing Dotel and Linebrink to inflated contracts. That was before the Griffey trade, which I liked at the time, although I didn't think Griffey would have an everyday place in the Sox lineup. Williams also has been criticized in the Bay Area for the Swisher trade.

Success has a lot to do with the executive award. The fact that the Sox had such a miserable 2007 and Williams made bold moves and the team is in first place in September with the two consensus picks for the division hopelessly out of it may count for something. The executive award actually is voted on in mid-September, which is why Williams didn't win it in 2005, when consensus was his team was historically collapsing.

There aren't any great teams out there this year, except in relative terms. The AL Central is a weak (at best feisty) division, but it's not as weak as the AL West. The AL East isn't much stronger. The team with the best record in the National League is on a six-game losing streak, the first five coming at home, and it doesn't look like they have lost any ground in the standings. No GM has built an unbeatable dynamo this year, although the Angels may look it playing out West.

One thing Williams has going for him is the fact that some may feel he wasn't rewarded for 2005. Sort of like John Wayne in True Grit beating out Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy for best actor.

all*star quentin
09-06-2008, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the info, TDOG.

Now we just have to wait/see if KW wins it this year.

TomBradley72
09-06-2008, 02:20 PM
KW deserves a ton of accolades to aggressively retooling the team to rebound to what looks like a 90-92 win season. At the same time he's also accountable for the horrible 2007 and our barren minor league system.

Noneck
09-06-2008, 02:51 PM
Sort of like John Wayne in True Grit beating out Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy for best actor.

Or he could be like Peter O'Toole.

TDog
09-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Or he could be like Peter O'Toole.

True. The execuiive of the year award, like the Academy Awards, often comes amounts to a popularity contest.

champagne030
09-06-2008, 05:01 PM
We don't know if he didn't try. Some deals have to be rejected.

He didn't even put a waiver claim on Bradford or Bryd. I agree that plenty of deals need to be rejected, but he didn't even try........

TDog
09-06-2008, 05:54 PM
He didn't even put a waiver claim on Bradford or Bryd. ...

Why is that a bad thing?

35th and Shields
09-06-2008, 06:03 PM
He didn't even put a waiver claim on Bradford or Bryd. I agree that plenty of deals need to be rejected, but he didn't even try........

People were saying the same thing about Washburn. What happens a week later, he gets shelled by the sox. It could be that KW should've gotten Byrd or bradford or whoever but I think Kenny knows a little bit more then we do.

champagne030
09-06-2008, 06:16 PM
Why is that a bad thing?

People were saying the same thing about Washburn. What happens a week later, he gets shelled by the sox. It could be that KW should've gotten Byrd or bradford or whoever but I think Kenny knows a little bit more then we do.


I assume that you've seen Wunch, oops, I mean Logan or Wassermann this season.....

Rounding_Third
09-06-2008, 10:56 PM
The AL Central is a weak (at best feisty) division, but it's not as weak as the AL West. The AL East isn't much stronger.

The way I see it, the AL Central is the 2nd best in baseball. Interdivision games proved, once again, the NL sucks. The 3 AL divisions are the 3 best in MLB and the central is 2nd only to the east.

guillensdisciple
09-06-2008, 10:58 PM
The way I see it, the AL Central is the 2nd best in baseball. Interdivision games proved, once again, the NL sucks. The 3 AL divisions are the 3 best in MLB and the central is 2nd only to the east.
Absolutely correct. The east is at a different level at the moment; of course that changes in the playoffs but for now I don't think many teams would give up their positions in their divisions to go to the AL east.

doublem23
09-06-2008, 11:07 PM
Tough to not go with Andrew Friedman though, worst to first.

Did Friedman really do a lot of rebuilding in the off-season, or is the Rays success more a product of the maturation of their endless building attempts? I'm not really sure, I don't follow the Rays or the AL East that closely, but for the most part, the keys to Tampa's success have been mostly the internal growth of their players, right?

I have a feeling you're right, however, the Rays will be a sexy pick for multiple management awards for their remarkable season. It's a shame, too, because I think if you go pound for pound, which executive did the most work in the last 365 days to reshape his roster and build a winner, KW should be the winner hands down, IMO.

rdivaldi
09-06-2008, 11:36 PM
and our barren minor league system.

Okay, it's time to put this cliche' away guys. Our minor league system is no longer barren, and let's not forget that quite a few young guys came up and contributed to the team this year.

rdivaldi
09-06-2008, 11:41 PM
oops, I mean Logan or Wassermann this season.....

Logan was solid and even dominant for the first 4 months of the season, then July rolled around...

Rounding_Third
09-07-2008, 10:17 AM
Okay, it's time to put this cliche' away guys. Our minor league system is no longer barren, and let's not forget that quite a few young guys came up and contributed to the team this year.


That's true to some extent but its still one of the worst in baseball. That aside, through trades (depletion) it has also given us a ring, this season, and, overall, a lot of mighty good times at The Cell for the last 5-6 years except last year. KW just uses his farm system differently than others. I think that's why he's always been partial to pitchers in the draft. They make for the best trade bait. We've had a weak system for years but continue to compete in the majors. Still, the scouting and player developement has to get better. Not many of our traded kids have excelled elsewhere, either. But you have to have a few players come up and perform to create a balance and to ease the payroll.

Rounding_Third
09-07-2008, 10:30 AM
Okay, it's time to put this cliche' away guys. Our minor league system is no longer barren, and let's not forget that quite a few young guys came up and contributed to the team this year.

Okayl, I have to restate my opinon. I did some internet research and it appears, through indirect quotes, that Baseball America ranks our system the 2nd worst in baseball. So, yes, our system is pretty barren compared to the rest.

soxinem1
09-07-2008, 11:38 AM
Guillen actually deserves some credit too. He gave Swish, PK, and Junior plenty of AB's using three guys for two spots in the batting order.

With Paulie looking much better lately, and Griffey coming through with a few RBI hits now, maybe TCQ's loss will be softened a little.

jabrch
09-07-2008, 11:59 AM
I wouldn't say "genius" - we still don't have a legitimate MLB post season calibre CF on the team. That is the biggest criticism I have of KW this year. Swish is a corner or a 1B. Griff just shouldn't be in CF anymore. And neither BA or Owens can hit well enough to support that lineup spot at this point. KW has done his job - the job now is up to the players.

Hopefully we can play through that - and KW can correct it next year.

PennStater98r
09-08-2008, 10:31 AM
Friedman deserves nothing. Maddon deserves the award for Manager of the year - but there were very little changes made - I suppose the trade with Minnesota was big - but when you match that up to Cabrera, Linebrink, Dotel, TCQ and Griffey - I'd say that KW had a better year. Swisher has been painful to watch most of the season, but I still argue that we didn't give up a ton for him.

downstairs
09-09-2008, 11:19 AM
I said all along... Griffey was dirt-cheap insurance against injury.

Didn't expect it to be TCQ, but it is and at least we're not S.O.L.