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View Full Version : Sox vs Twins in September..2003 vs 2008


captain54
09-02-2008, 12:30 PM
I've noticed a couple of mentions of the end of the 2008 season possibly compared to the end of the 2003 season

On September 2, 2003, the White Sox had a 1 game lead over Minnesota..

On September 14, they saw their last day in first, as Minnesota went on a 10 game winning streak, including a sweep of the Sox at the Metrodome, where the White Sox bats went silent

..by September 24, the Sox were eliminated from postseason play, and effectively ended Jerry Manuel's tenure as White Sox manager

From what I gather on the Minnesota fan forums, they don't seem all too confident in the Twins taking the division, probably the same amount of negativity to see on this board.

I guess the weird thing is, a lot can change from September 2nd to September 24th.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-02-2008, 12:51 PM
In the postgame thread from yesterday, someone said they thought the division would be decided by two games or less. I think that is probably reasonable, and with 25 games remaining it is certainly possible (maybe even likely) that one or two could be decided by luck: a ground ball just beyond the reach of the shortstop, a fly ball with home run distance that goes foul, etc. Either way, a lot can happen.

Unfortunately, the Twins definitely have the schedule advantage from here on. This road trip that they are about to finish was supposed to be their toughest challenge, and while they haven't been stellar, they haven't tanked either. Hopefully those lucky bounces go in our favor, because we'll need them.

TDog
09-02-2008, 01:21 PM
...
From what I gather on the Minnesota fan forums, they don't seem all too confident in the Twins taking the division, probably the same amount of negativity to see on this board. ....

That is because both the White Sox and Twins are playing what their fans consider uninspired baseball. Neither team is consistently hitting. Bullpens have been shaky. Defensive mistakes in crucial situations abound. Both teams have been playing on the road. Twins fans expected to do better than 3-4 on a visit to Seattle and Oakland. Twins fans are looking at a team that can't seem to win close games lately, but has no problem winning when they score in double-digits. They did beat the Mariners 6-5 last week to salvage one game in Seattle, but that required throwing out a runner at the plate in the eighth inning on a two-out single that could have tied the game. That's the only eighth-inning lead of, what, six or seven runs that the bullpen (aided by inconsistent defense) hasn't blown since the first game of the roadtrip.

Amazing, when you stop to think about it, is that any team from the Central will make the postseason.

The Twins have a dozen more games at home, three against the White Sox. If the Sox will one of the three games, each will have gone 2-7 in the park of their rival in this race. The Twins are a different team at home.

It may be that both the 2003 Twins and the 2003 White Sox were better than the teams they evolved into five years hence. I believe the Sox have better pitching now than they did half a decade ago. They don't have Thomas and Ordonez, but Quentin and Dye are doing the job.

The Twins' pitching probably isn't as good as it was in 2003. They have Nathan closing games, but they don't have Radke and Santana in the rotation. It was in 2003 that Santana emerged as a starter, going 5-0 in five August starts and 3-0 in five September starts. The only Santana games the Twins lost from August through September came in an August game where he left before the Indians scored their runs and his last game, a day after the Sox were eliminated. But the current Twins have Mauer and Morneau. Morneau, like Quentin, is a serious MVP candidate, as much as the prospect annoys the WSI faithful.

If Indians management hadn't given up on the season, it might be a three-team race, more reminiscent of 1967 (which was a four-team race in 10-team league, with only the top team emerging to play in the World Series) than 2003.

It might look like a battle of which team sucks the less. But after watching the White Sox coast in 2000 (I think their magic number was nine on Labor Day) and watching their frustration in the ALDS round, I'm not pounding my head against the wall because the Sox don't have a bigger lead.

I'm happy to be in a pennant race. When I was a kid, at best, they came in five-year intervals and usually didn't involve September. If this falls into the five-year interval pattern of my formative years (1967-1972-1977), at least there was a special surprise in the middle that gives me hope that I won't have to wait another five years for an enjoyable baseball season.

captain54
09-02-2008, 01:47 PM
One similiarity between the 2003 Sox and the 2008 Sox is that they were a power oriented offense and not a lot of manufacturing of runs, etc.

The one main alarming aspect of this year's offense is their consistent inability to get runners home from third with less that two outs, and their inability to score the leadoff single or walk.

I certainly see it being highly unlikely the Twins are going to go on a 10 game winning streak, as I do see it unlikely the White Sox are going on a 10 game winning streak.

I think inconsistent starting pitching, bullpen, and relying on the home run are the biggest concerns, to me. My biggest fear is that the starting pitching and bullpen come around, and the offense shuts down the final weeks. That's kind of what happened in 2003

oeo
09-02-2008, 04:03 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.

areilly
09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.

One could argue that if the Sox wanted it, they would've used the Twins' struggles to build a bigger lead than the one they currently ha...oh, wait.

hellview
09-02-2008, 05:43 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.

So that's been the Royals and Pirates problem for the last 20 years...they just don't "want it" enough.

Why are you wasting your time on White Sox message boards. You should be in baseball front office cause you've solved the problems of why teams don't win games.

Bless you...your a king among men.

hi im skot
09-02-2008, 05:59 PM
So that's been the Royals and Pirates problem for the last 20 years...they just don't "want it" enough.

Why are you wasting your time on White Sox message boards. You should be in baseball front office cause you've solved the problems of why teams don't win games.

Bless you...your a king among men.

:rolleyes:

Hagan
09-02-2008, 06:19 PM
WOW being considered a high priest must not have much to do with brain power. Come on dude...EVERYONE WANTS IT. Some days you just dont have IT.

kitekrazy
09-02-2008, 06:33 PM
I think Twin fans would be shocked they are still in it without Santana. I imagine it would be frustrating since the ownership is they exact opposite of Steinbrenner. I wish the Sox farm systems was as good as theirs. Even Jerry will pay for a missing piece that gets you to a World Series.

chisoxmike
09-02-2008, 09:45 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.

Nope.

Sox don't seem to want it much either.

oeo
09-02-2008, 09:47 PM
Nope.

Sox don't seem to want it much either.

I know, what the hell?

People keep saying how this is such a good race. Uh...no, neither team is doing anything. It's been .500 ball for about a month now. Terrible.

chisoxmike
09-02-2008, 09:47 PM
I know, what the hell?


I wish I knew.

ChiSoxGirl
09-02-2008, 10:13 PM
I know, what the hell?

People keep saying how this is such a good race. Uh...no, neither team is doing anything. It's been .500 ball for about a month now. Terrible.

Both teams are pissing away opportunities left and right to take control of this division, which just means the series in the damn dome is going to be that much more meaningful, which scares me to no end! :o:

munchman33
09-02-2008, 10:15 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.

If these are two even teams (and records dictate such), remaining schedule HEAVILY favors the Twins. If we want the division, we're going to have to play our best baseball of the season. Because the competition the Twins face gives them a hell of a lot of leeway.

Jurr
09-02-2008, 10:21 PM
The Twins don't want it. If they did, they would have taken over the lead a few weeks ago.

The Sox just need to start winning ballgames. It starts tonight.
Nope. Not tonight.

You want the Sox to be in the playoffs, but you want them to be more than a name in the bracket. This team is a first time jogger, hacking the 10 years of Marlboro reds out of his lungs as he passes out a mile before his run is scheduled to end.

TDog
09-02-2008, 10:26 PM
Nope. Not tonight.

You want the Sox to be in the playoffs, but you want them to be more than a name in the bracket. This team is a first time jogger, hacking the 10 years of Marlboro reds out of his lungs as he passes out a mile before his run is scheduled to end.

Certainly, there's no point of them making the postseason if they are going to stagger into like the 2006 Cardinals, who managed only 83 wins. You want to go in like the 2000 White Sox, who had the league's best record.

munchman33
09-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Certainly, there's no point of them making the postseason if they are going to stagger into like the 2006 Cardinals, who managed only 83 wins. You want to go in like the 2000 White Sox, who had the league's best record.

The 2006 Cardinals were the same team that won 100 games in 2005. They were just injury plagued for the first five months of the season. I sware to God if somebody else takes a crappy team and compares it to that team, I'm going to lose it. Sox fans are supposed to be smarter than that.

chisoxmike
09-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Nope. Not tonight.

You want the Sox to be in the playoffs, but you want them to be more than a name in the bracket. This team is a first time jogger, hacking the 10 years of Marlboro reds out of his lungs as he passes out a mile before his run is scheduled to end.

I'd still like to see the Sox in the postseason.

It's something the Sox need to start doing...consistent playoff appearances. None of this every four-five year bull****.

The Sox will never shed their "second team in the second city" crap if they aren't constantly playing in October.

TDog
09-02-2008, 10:34 PM
The 2006 Cardinals were the same team that won 100 games in 2005. They were just injury plagued for the first five months of the season. I sware to God if somebody else takes a crappy team and compares it to that team, I'm going to lose it. Sox fans are supposed to be smarter than that.

The White Sox playing crappy on the current road trip is the same White Sox team that was playing great beaseball during their last homestand.

oeo
09-02-2008, 10:37 PM
The Sox will never shed their "second team in the second city" crap if they aren't constantly playing in October.

I don't think they will ever shed it. If a World Series didn't do it, nothing will.

Jurr
09-02-2008, 10:43 PM
I'd still like to see the Sox in the postseason.

It's something the Sox need to start doing...consistent playoff appearances. None of this every four-five year bull****.

The Sox will never shed their "second team in the second city" crap if they aren't constantly playing in October.
I know, dude. It sucks. Maybe KW gets away from the over-the-hill, overpriced slugger relics and invests in pitching and defense. It worked for him before.

Look at the Yankees. It (sluggers over 30 and no pitching/defense) isn't working for them, either.

TDog
09-02-2008, 10:46 PM
I know, dude. It sucks. Maybe KW gets away from the over-the-hill, overpriced slugger relics and invests in pitching and defense. It worked for him before.

Look at the Yankees. It (sluggers over 30 and no pitching/defense) isn't working for them, either.

Maybe Kenny Williams brings in young players like Quentin and Ramirez and trades for pitchers like Floyd and Danks and trades for a Golden Glove shortstop.

JB98
09-02-2008, 10:54 PM
If these are two even teams (and records dictate such), remaining schedule HEAVILY favors the Twins. If we want the division, we're going to have to play our best baseball of the season. Because the competition the Twins face gives them a hell of a lot of leeway.

No, it doesn't. They have another 10-game trip that includes four in Tampa Bay. That's more difficult than our four in New York.

The Twins have been playing Seattle, Oakland and Toronto, and they've been peeing all over themselves.

chisoxmike
09-02-2008, 10:57 PM
No, it doesn't. They have another 10-game trip that includes four in Tampa Bay. That's more difficult than our four in New York.

The Twins have been playing Seattle, Oakland and Toronto, and they've been peeing all over themselves.

Hhaha.

I have a image of Nick Punto wetting his pants.

It makes me laugh.

Jurr
09-02-2008, 10:58 PM
Maybe Kenny Williams brings in young players like Quentin and Ramirez and trades for pitchers like Floyd and Danks and trades for a Golden Glove shortstop.
Gotta give it to him. He's off to a good start on his overhaul. Ship Konerko, Vazquez, Contreras, Crede, and the Macdougal/Logan monster out of here. Keep funneling in athletes.

ChiSoxGirl
09-02-2008, 10:58 PM
Hhaha.

I have a image of Nick Punto wetting his pants.

It makes me laugh.

I see Punto, Morneau, Mauer, Spahn, etc. :wink:

TDog
09-02-2008, 11:17 PM
Gotta give it to him. He's off to a good start on his overhaul. Ship Konerko, Vazquez, Contreras, Crede, and the Macdougal/Logan monster out of here. Keep funneling in athletes.

I don't think Vazquez is going anywhere,and Contreras will remain only as an expense. He is under contract and won't be able to pitch for a long time. He can't be traded in the mean time.

Crede will probably leave as a free agent, and the Sox will have to find a new thirdbaseman. I doubt that Konerko is going anywhere either.

I would like to trade Swisher and hang on to Konerko.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 10:13 AM
No, it doesn't. They have another 10-game trip that includes four in Tampa Bay. That's more difficult than our four in New York.

The Twins have been playing Seattle, Oakland and Toronto, and they've been peeing all over themselves.

I'd rather have their schedule, but you're right. I really doesn't matter who plays who, because neither of these teams can win a game.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 10:15 AM
The White Sox playing crappy on the current road trip is the same White Sox team that was playing great beaseball during their last homestand.

Way to compare entire seasons to week long stretches. Very apt.

Foulke You
09-03-2008, 01:10 PM
The 2006 Cardinals were the same team that won 100 games in 2005. They were just injury plagued for the first five months of the season. I sware to God if somebody else takes a crappy team and compares it to that team, I'm going to lose it. Sox fans are supposed to be smarter than that.
Sorry Munch, that 2006 Cards team was a mostly mediocre bunch that starting playing well at the right time. Jeff Suppan and Jeff Weaver were the anchors of their rotation. So Taguchi and Juan Encarnacion were their starting corner outfielders. This is all one needs to know about just how bad the Tigers choked in that World Series. I'm sure if you ask them on Motownsports, they will be in full agreement that they had the far superior team and just blew it.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 01:33 PM
Sorry Munch, that 2006 Cards team was a mostly mediocre bunch that starting playing well at the right time. Jeff Suppan and Jeff Weaver were the anchors of their rotation. So Taguchi and Juan Encarnacion were their starting corner outfielders. This is all one needs to know about just how bad the Tigers choked in that World Series. I'm sure if you ask them on Motownsports, they will be in full agreement that they had the far superior team and just blew it.

I don't disagree that the Tigers were better. But Suppan, Taguchi, and Encarnacion were big parts of that 2005 Cardinal team too. It really was a good team.

beasly213
09-03-2008, 01:34 PM
If these are two even teams (and records dictate such), remaining schedule HEAVILY favors the Twins. If we want the division, we're going to have to play our best baseball of the season. Because the competition the Twins face gives them a hell of a lot of leeway.

Those supposed "easy games" on the schedule tend to be some of the tougher ones for teams in a tight race.

Teams like Baltimore Kansas City and Cleveland don't have a lot to play for right now except to play spoiler. There is little to no pressure on them and while the Twins will be throwing their best players out there who at this point in the season are tired and worn down teams with nothing to lose can play more relaxed and often times more rested players.

All I'm saying is you can never look at a schedule and think just because the Twins have a supposed "Easier" one than the White Sox that they have the advantage going down the stretch. Any given day any team can beat another one.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride and be thankful we have meaningful baseball right now while most of the teams in baseball don't.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 01:37 PM
Those supposed "easy games" on the schedule tend to be some of the tougher ones for teams in a tight race.

Teams like Baltimore Kansas City and Cleveland don't have a lot to play for right now except to play spoiler. There is little to no pressure on them and while the Twins will be throwing their best players out there who at this point in the season are tired and worn down teams with nothing to lose can play more relaxed and often times more rested players.

All I'm saying is you can never look at a schedule and think just because the Twins have a supposed "Easier" one than the White Sox that they have the advantage going down the stretch. Any given day any team can beat another one.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride and be thankful we have meaningful baseball right now while most of the teams in baseball don't.

It would be a little easier to enjoy if we weren't playing our worst baseball of the season at such a crucial stretch...

TDog
09-03-2008, 01:52 PM
Way to compare entire seasons to week long stretches. Very apt.

I never said the 2006 Cardinals were a crappy team, only that they went into the postseason while not playing well. The White Sox aren't a crappy team either. And the way they have been playing on this roadtrip -- no, the way they have been playing since the last game in Baltimore -- is not indicative of how the White Sox can play baseball.

The White Sox are a lot better than you give them credit for being, just as the 2006 Cardinals were a lot better than some people insist they were.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 02:19 PM
I never said the 2006 Cardinals were a crappy team, only that they went into the postseason while not playing well. The White Sox aren't a crappy team either. And the way they have been playing on this roadtrip -- no, the way they have been playing since the last game in Baltimore -- is not indicative of how the White Sox can play baseball.

The White Sox are a lot better than you give them credit for being, just as the 2006 Cardinals were a lot better than some people insist they were.

Except the 2006 Cardinals were a better team than our current roster.

They went 12-16 in September. Not good, but not exactly tanking it either. They were a legitamate threat, and just as good as any other team in the NL. Do you really believe we're just as good as any other team in the AL?

nccwsfan
09-03-2008, 03:22 PM
Except the 2006 Cardinals were a better team than our current roster.

They went 12-16 in September. Not good, but not exactly tanking it either. They were a legitamate threat, and just as good as any other team in the NL. Do you really believe we're just as good as any other team in the AL?

New York Mets 97-65
San Diego Padres 88-74
Los Angeles Dodgers 88-74 (Wild Card)
Philadelphia Phillies 85-77 (Did not qualify for the playoffs)
St. Louis 83-78

April 17-8
May 17-11
June 9-16
July 15-11
August 13-15
September 12-16

Most games over .500 16 (July 26th)
Biggest Lead 7 (September 20th. They lost 9 of 12 to end the season)


They were far from dominant in 2006. The Cardinals won because they made it into the postseason and got hot at the right time. Pitching and fundamentals were better than everyone else. If you put the 06' Cardinals up against the 05' or 04' Cards they would get beat 80% of the time. I don't necessarily want to be compared to the 06' Cardinals, but if the end result is a World Series title I'll find a way to live with it.:smile:

TDog
09-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Except the 2006 Cardinals were a better team than our current roster.

They went 12-16 in September. Not good, but not exactly tanking it either. They were a legitamate threat, and just as good as any other team in the NL. Do you really believe we're just as good as any other team in the AL?

The White Sox being better or worse than the 2006 Cardinals has little to do with my analogy.

But as long as you're asking, I do think the White Sox are just as good as any team in the American League. I don't think the White Sox are as good as any team in the American League was in 2005 or 2006.

Every team is flawed. The Angels appear to have less flaws than other team. I still expect the Rays to have a rough time winning their division. With the White Sox playing with their A lineup healthy and pitching well rested can play with any team in baseball, especially at home.

But that is ancillary to my original point that sparked your defense of the 2006 Cardinals.

munchman33
09-03-2008, 04:40 PM
The White Sox being better or worse than the 2006 Cardinals has little to do with my analogy.

But as long as you're asking, I do think the White Sox are just as good as any team in the American League. I don't think the White Sox are as good as any team in the American League was in 2005 or 2006.

Every team is flawed. The Angels appear to have less flaws than other team. I still expect the Rays to have a rough time winning their division. With the White Sox playing with their A lineup healthy and pitching well rested can play with any team in baseball, especially at home.

But that is ancillary to my original point that sparked your defense of the 2006 Cardinals.

We look like **** when we play the Rays and Red Sox. And we don't necessarily look good when we play the Angels. How you can say we're in the same league as them is beyond me. Flaws or not, it doesn't take a genius to see they're better than we are.

Foulke You
09-03-2008, 05:20 PM
We look like **** when we play the Rays and Red Sox. And we don't necessarily look good when we play the Angels. How you can say we're in the same league as them is beyond me. Flaws or not, it doesn't take a genius to see they're better than we are.
I think it is certainly fair to say we're probably the 4th best team in the AL behind the Rays, Red Sox, and Angels right now. However, that doesn't mean we don't have a shot to knock them off in the playoffs if we do indeed get there. The 2000 Yankees (87 wins) were probably the 4th best team in the playoffs that year behind the 99 win White Sox, the 91 win Mariners, and the 91 win A's and that Yankee team went on to win the World Series over the 94 win Mets. The 2008 White Sox are a flawed bunch but have shown the ability to dominate at home and have had stretches of great starting pitching and an explosive "shock and awe" type of offense when they are clicking. Getting those things to happen in October would be the key to any White Sox playoff run. The '06 Cardinals that you referenced rode the hot hands of Suppan and Weaver all the way to a title. I could see our team go either way in an ALDS. I can see us pulling off an upset against one of the other contenders or getting ourselves swept. It will come down to which White Sox team shows up in October. (Assuming we get there) The weather in October could also be a factor. Our pitching staff was lights out when the weather was chilly in April and May. Of course, our offense also was ice cold during this period but we were still winning ball games.

TDog
09-03-2008, 06:19 PM
We look like **** when we play the Rays and Red Sox. And we don't necessarily look good when we play the Angels. How you can say we're in the same league as them is beyond me. Flaws or not, it doesn't take a genius to see they're better than we are.

Baseball is a human game. The White Sox won two of three in their first trip to St. Petersburg. The next time they went to St. Petersburg, they lost three of four -- one in the bottom of the ninth, one in the bottom of the tenth and one by a score of 2-0. There isn't so big difference between the Rays, Red Sox, White Sox, Twins and Angels that any of them could sweep or could be swept in a postseason series, and one of them won't even make the postseason.

Mental aptitude notwithstanding, the Rays aren't clearly better than the White Sox. They are playing better ball at the moment. The same holds true for the White Sox and Red Sox. When you look at the Twins, you see the team that beat Danks, Richard and Buehrle in the last four-game series the Sox played in the Metrodome. You ignore the seven of nine the Sox beat the Twins at the Cell, and you're not paying attention to the way the Twins are playing on their current roadtrip, where they are 5-7 despite having a lead in the eighth inning or later of every game but the one last night where they blew a 5-1 in the middle innings (and 2-5 in games where the lead is slight enough to qualify the relievers for saves).

It is easy to all into default pessimism as a White Sox fan. I understand that. But it doesn't take a genius to see that every team in the race has played some crappy baseball this year and is capable of losing in the postseason.