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KyWhiSoxFan
09-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Charlotte 6, Durham 1
Getz, Owens, and Fields all out of the lineup.
Oney Guillen was the starting second baseman, being promoted from Kanny where he batted .182 in 17 games.
Bourgeois, 2-4, 2B, 2RBI (48), 2SB (30)
Eldred, 1-4
Cortez, 3-4
Guillen, 1-3, 2B
Haeger (W, 10-13), 9 IP, 6H, R, 7K, 4.45
Charlotte box: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_09_01_dubaaa_chraaa_1

Birmingham vs. Mobile canceled

Winston-Salem 6, Frederick 4
Shelby, 1-4, 2B, R, RBI (80)
Bonvechio, 3-5, HR (2), 2RBI
Retherford, 3-5
Carter, 4.2 IP, 8H, 3R, 6K
Spurgeon (W, 3-2), 2 IP, H, K
Winston-Salem box: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_09_01_wswafa_frdafa_1

West Virginia 4, Kannapolis 3
Morel, 2-3, HR (6), BB, 3 RBI (24), SB (5), .297
Beckham, 1-5, .310
Danks, 0-3, HBP, SB (1), .325
Kannapolis box: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_09_01_kanafx_wvaafx_1

Great Falls vs. Billings canceled

...
09-01-2008, 12:19 PM
Charlotte vs. Durham
The game is in progress and Getz and Fields must be called up. Neither are in the lineup.
However, Oney Guillen is the starting second baseman, being promoted (LOL) all the way from Kanny where he batted a sizzling .182 in 17 games.
Haeger started on the mound.
Charlotte box: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_09_01_dubaaa_chraaa_1

Birmingham vs. Mobile canceled

Winston-Salem vs. Frederick 2:00

Kannapolis vs. West Virginia 1:05

Great Falls vs. Billings 9:05

What a bunch of BS. Soon KW Jr. will be starting in CF.

Hagan
09-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Calm down people, it's the last game, a meaningless game as they are not in the playoffs push and it's simply a matter of needing a body as Getz and Fields are obviously on their way up to Cleveland.

Kanny is not too far so makes sense to just shift people around.

Get over it!

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 12:43 PM
Calm down people, it's the last game, a meaningless game as they are not in the playoffs push and it's simply a matter of needing a body as Getz and Fields are obviously on their way up to Cleveland.

Kanny is not too far so makes sense to just shift people around.

Get over it!

There are a helluva lot more people that are more deserving to fill a spot. Oney Guillen can forever say he played AAA baseball....which is a joke. He shouldn't even have been drafted and has done nothing to justify his roster spot.

Hagan
09-01-2008, 01:06 PM
I think we all know why Oney was drafted. It's not as if we missed a great opportunity to pick someone else is he was taken about as late as possible.

When Oney is 70 and playing with his grandkids I think bragging about going 0 for whatever in a AAA game in 2008 will be the last thing he brings up.

He isn't taken at bats away from anyone, they aren't gonna move people up from Birmingham for a day. They start the playoffs in 2 days. And Winston Salem is battling for a playoff spot as they still have 4 more games in the season. Plus Oney serves as a mentor/ coach for a lot of the young latins in the organization. He has his sights on coaching and is a great communicator with the younger members of the organization.

I think you guys just need to get over it!

KW Jr. is another entirely different issue. He was a 6th rounder and got a big bonus and has spent his entire first year on the DL. If that pick doesn't work out than I could understand some of the criticism.

sox1970
09-01-2008, 01:10 PM
Guillen went 1-3 with a double. Nobody died.

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 01:30 PM
I think we all know why Oney was drafted. It's not as if we missed a great opportunity to pick someone else is he was taken about as late as possible.

When Oney is 70 and playing with his grandkids I think bragging about going 0 for whatever in a AAA game in 2008 will be the last thing he brings up.

He isn't taken at bats away from anyone, they aren't gonna move people up from Birmingham for a day. They start the playoffs in 2 days. And Winston Salem is battling for a playoff spot as they still have 4 more games in the season. Plus Oney serves as a mentor/ coach for a lot of the young latins in the organization. He has his sights on coaching and is a great communicator with the younger members of the organization.

I think you guys just need to get over it!

KW Jr. is another entirely different issue. He was a 6th rounder and got a big bonus and has spent his entire first year on the DL. If that pick doesn't work out than I could understand some of the criticism.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I prefer players to earn it. If it makes Oney happy knowing he had a professional baseball career because of his last name, that's fine. For me personally, I don't know if I'd take much pride in it.

I guess part of the reason I have a problem with Oney is that I played against him the one year while he was at Norh Park. IMO he really wasn't that good of a player, even compared to other DIII players. He has a good glove but was a very weak hitter. Worst of all, in my opinion, he was extremely lazy both in warm ups and during the game. If he was a hard working kid I'd cut him some slack, but based on the 1 time I saw him out there (again maybe he's change or maybe he just had a bad game) he hardly played the game the right way, which was suprizing given who his father is.

It is what it is. I'm sure one day he'll find his way on the major league roster.

oeo
09-01-2008, 01:40 PM
There are a helluva lot more people that are more deserving to fill a spot. Oney Guillen can forever say he played AAA baseball....which is a joke. He shouldn't even have been drafted and has done nothing to justify his roster spot.

Are you seriously bitching about this, or is this a joke?

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 02:02 PM
Are you seriously bitching about this, or is this a joke?

I'm not joking at all. I think its a joke the Oney is in this organization to begin with, let along being promoted to AAA, even for the last day of the year. This is pro baseball. This isn't feel good everyone get's a trophy ball.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter, you're right. But no one seems to care what kind of message this sends to everyone else in the organization that is looking to move up.

If I was a player in AA I'd be pretty pissed about this as I patiently wait my chance while Oney ".182" Guillen gets rewarded with a prmotion. The minor leagues should be a meritocracy....this nepotism bull**** has no place.

So yes I'm serious. It pisses me off when underserving people get rewarded becuase of who they know, or for other rasons than their actual skill set. It happens all the time in life so people seem immune to it....doesn't make it right though.

EMachine10
09-01-2008, 02:42 PM
I'm not joking at all. I think its a joke the Oney is in this organization to begin with, let along being promoted to AAA, even for the last day of the year. This is pro baseball. This isn't feel good everyone get's a trophy ball.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter, you're right. But no one seems to care what kind of message this sends to everyone else in the organization that is looking to move up.

If I was a player in AA I'd be pretty pissed about this as I patiently wait my chance while Oney ".182" Guillen gets rewarded with a prmotion. The minor leagues should be a meritocracy....this nepotism bull**** has no place.

So yes I'm serious. It pisses me off when underserving people get rewarded becuase of who they know, or for other rasons than their actual skill set. It happens all the time in life so people seem immune to it....doesn't make it right though.

I highly doubt any middle infielder is complaining that they didn't get to play in Charlotte's last game of the year. They'll start the playoffs in a few days and they'll get some rest. Do they really want to get called up one level for one game and then go back down for the playoffs? This is a complete non issue. I don't think Oney is going to be struttin around town bragging that he played AAA baseball. :rolleyes:

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 02:52 PM
I think we all know why Oney was drafted. It's not as if we missed a great opportunity to pick someone else is he was taken about as late as possible.

.

I don't think the whole thing is any bigger of a deal than say Ron Schueler drafting his family cat or something like that a while back, this sort of nepotism-y thing happens in a lot of organizations, but I do take some issue with the above as

Buehrle
MaCarthy
Piazza

among others were late-round picks. 6th round where KW's son was taken? PLenty of good major leaguers came from that over the years, I am just too lazy to look it up.

EMachine10
09-01-2008, 03:06 PM
I don't think the whole thing is any bigger of a deal than say Ron Schueler drafting his family cat or something like that a while back, this sort of nepotism-y thing happens in a lot of organizations, but I do take some issue with the above as

Buehrle
MaCarthy
Piazza

among others were late-round picks. 6th round where KW's son was taken? PLenty of good major leaguers came from that over the years, I am just too lazy to look it up.

Yeah, there will be diamonds in the rough in every draft, but there's absolutely no guarantee you'll come up with one. I'm not really defending the pick of Oney, because I don't know too much about it. I have no clue what he did prior to the draft so I can't comment on whether or not he was deserving of being drafted there or not. It was pretty late that he got drafted, and it doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes you need to grab the guy that's going to bring you a stable clubhouse environment wherever he is in the minors or somebody who can alleviate the pressures for some Latin players. I know an awful lot about hockey and its draft procedures and this kind of thing occurs, not only in the later rounds, but at times the skill of a player is overlooked for the personal presence in as early as the first or second round. It borders on apples and oranges here, but hopefully people can see the point. We may have ultimately gained a Buehrle by drafting another player in Oney's spot, but we not have. We'll never know, and who cares.

sox1970
09-01-2008, 03:08 PM
Beckham finished the season at .310 (18-58), 3 homers, 5 BB, 6 K's.

Winston-Salem and Birmingham are both in the playoffs. I hope he gets a chance to continue to play before the Arizona Fall League starts.

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 03:14 PM
I don't think the whole thing is any bigger of a deal than say Ron Schueler drafting his family cat or something like that a while back, this sort of nepotism-y thing happens in a lot of organizations, but I do take some issue with the above as

Buehrle
MaCarthy
Piazza

among others were late-round picks. 6th round where KW's son was taken? PLenty of good major leaguers came from that over the years, I am just too lazy to look it up.

Jared Washborn out of Wisconsin Oshkosh was either completely undrafted or drafted late as well. Again, I don't really mind the courtousy pick late...but the fact that he is still in the system after 2 years (and is progressing no less) is a different story to me.

It's somewhat ironic that you mention Piazza, since he was drafted as a favor to Tommy LaSorda (who was his godfather). The story goes that Piazza never caught before entering the Dodgers minor league system, but he said he had catching experiance, knowing that being a backup catcher was really his only chance to stick. Of course he made the most out of his gift opportunity (hitting above .182 I would assume) and went on to become the best offesnive catcher of all time.

EMachine10
09-01-2008, 03:46 PM
Beckham finished the season at .310 (18-58), 3 homers, 5 BB, 6 K's.

Winston-Salem and Birmingham are both in the playoffs. I hope he gets a chance to continue to play before the Arizona Fall League starts.

He should have played for Charlotte today

Really, though, it would be nice to see him continue his progress with another team before the AFL. It seems like those players don't really have the opportunity to get into a rhythm there.

cws05champ
09-01-2008, 03:49 PM
Jared Washborn out of Wisconsin Oshkosh was either completely undrafted or drafted late as well. Again, I don't really mind the courtousy pick late...but the fact that he is still in the system after 2 years (and is progressing no less) is a different story to me.

It's somewhat ironic that you mention Piazza, since he was drafted as a favor to Tommy LaSorda (who was his godfather). The story goes that Piazza never caught before entering the Dodgers minor league system, but he said he had catching experiance, knowing that being a backup catcher was really his only chance to stick. Of course he made the most out of his gift opportunity (hitting above .182 I would assume) and went on to become the best offesnive catcher of all time.
ALBERT PUJOLS. 13th round selection for the Cardinals in 1999. This drafting in MLB is not an exact science but you think the manager and GM would know if their kids have the talent to make it to the bigs or at least be an organizatinal depth player. I don't know their true thoughts on their kids, but I have my own opinion....which pretty much echos everyone here.

Hagan
09-01-2008, 07:47 PM
I still think they will send Beckham to Instructs in Phoenix for a few weeks before he starts in the AFL. When he was being interviewed by DJ he dad say he'd go there when the season ends for instructs and the AFL. I would imagine this would be the case with him signing so late to get some more instruction and more time on the field.

oeo
09-01-2008, 10:06 PM
I'm not joking at all. I think its a joke the Oney is in this organization to begin with, let along being promoted to AAA, even for the last day of the year. This is pro baseball. This isn't feel good everyone get's a trophy ball.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter, you're right. But no one seems to care what kind of message this sends to everyone else in the organization that is looking to move up.

If I was a player in AA I'd be pretty pissed about this as I patiently wait my chance while Oney ".182" Guillen gets rewarded with a prmotion. The minor leagues should be a meritocracy....this nepotism bull**** has no place.

So yes I'm serious. It pisses me off when underserving people get rewarded becuase of who they know, or for other rasons than their actual skill set. It happens all the time in life so people seem immune to it....doesn't make it right though.

:whiner:

among others were late-round picks. 6th round where KW's son was taken? PLenty of good major leaguers came from that over the years, I am just too lazy to look it up.

Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

EMachine10
09-01-2008, 10:17 PM
:whiner:



Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

McCarthy, right? :tongue:

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 11:02 PM
:whiner:



Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

The chance was slim to none that we'd get a good player in the 6th round? You're joking right. This isn't like the NFL draft where the sixth round is total garbage.

Other sixth round picks: Jaime Moyer, Lance Johnson, Deion Sanders, Tom Gordon, Jim Edmonds (7th round actually), Eric Karros (the 1992 Rookie of the Year), Troy Percival, Joe Nathan, Tim Hudson, J.J. Putz, John Maine, Pat Neshak, Ryan Braun, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Matt Kemp.

Players taken even later:
Jermaine Dye taken in the 17th round. Roy Oswalt 23 round. Russell Martin 17th round. Jason Bay 22nd round. Dan Uggla 11th round. Nate McClouth 25th round. These are just a few I've found doing 5 minutes of research.

EVERY YEAR dozens of players taken after the 6th round become starters on major league teams. Some become all stars. You cannot throw away these picks.

To me its a matter of principle anyway. In life you should have to earn your own way, not be handed something. I'm sorry you disagree with this. I don't mind the Kenny Williams pick because at least he was a minor league talent. Oney was not and gets special treatment because of who his father is.

I'd also be a bit more lenient if we had a minor league system that didn't need to be totaly rebuilt. It'd be nice to be able to bring someone up in a pennant race that could help out...like you know every other team we are competing against. We brought up Jerry Owens and a bunc of AAAA relief pithers. We don't have a fifth starter. That is why I have a problem with the Oney Guillen summer baseball camp experience.

oeo
09-02-2008, 12:37 AM
The chance was slim to none that we'd get a good player in the 6th round? You're joking right. This isn't like the NFL draft where the sixth round is total garbage.

Other sixth round picks: Jaime Moyer, Lance Johnson, Deion Sanders, Tom Gordon, Jim Edmonds (7th round actually), Eric Karros (the 1992 Rookie of the Year), Troy Percival, Joe Nathan, Tim Hudson, J.J. Putz, John Maine, Pat Neshak, Ryan Braun, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Matt Kemp.

Players taken even later:
Jermaine Dye taken in the 17th round. Roy Oswalt 23 round. Russell Martin 17th round. Jason Bay 22nd round. Dan Uggla 11th round. Nate McClouth 25th round. These are just a few I've found doing 5 minutes of research.

EVERY YEAR dozens of players taken after the 6th round become starters on major league teams. Some become all stars. You cannot throw away these picks.

LOL, you keep listing players. Still doesn't change the fact that the MLB draft is a total crapshoot, even in the first round a lot of times. You're right, it's not like the NFL draft: it's much more difficult. The chances that we drafted a major league player in that sixth round are very, very small.

Here's another one of these for you: :whiner:

To me its a matter of principle anyway. In life you should have to earn your own way, not be handed something. I'm sorry you disagree with this. I don't mind the Kenny Williams pick because at least he was a minor league talent. Oney was not and gets special treatment because of who his father is.

If your daddy was a manager, or even some way affiliated with a major league organization, you would get drafted too. It happens all around baseball. You're overreacting, and you look like a fool for doing it.

I'd also be a bit more lenient if we had a minor league system that didn't need to be totaly rebuilt. It'd be nice to be able to bring someone up in a pennant race that could help out...like you know every other team we are competing against. We brought up Jerry Owens and a bunc of AAAA relief pithers. We don't have a fifth starter. That is why I have a problem with the Oney Guillen summer baseball camp experience.

Oney Guillen is really killing the minor league system. I could just imagine where would be without him: the same place.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2008, 06:19 AM
I don't think KW drafted his son because of nepotism.

I think KW drafted his son because he really thinks his son could develop into a great MLB ballplayer.

:o:

jabrch
09-02-2008, 08:50 AM
I think we all know why Oney was drafted. It's not as if we missed a great opportunity to pick someone else is he was taken about as late as possible.

When Oney is 70 and playing with his grandkids I think bragging about going 0 for whatever in a AAA game in 2008 will be the last thing he brings up.

He isn't taken at bats away from anyone, they aren't gonna move people up from Birmingham for a day. They start the playoffs in 2 days. And Winston Salem is battling for a playoff spot as they still have 4 more games in the season. Plus Oney serves as a mentor/ coach for a lot of the young latins in the organization. He has his sights on coaching and is a great communicator with the younger members of the organization.

I think you guys just need to get over it!

KW Jr. is another entirely different issue. He was a 6th rounder and got a big bonus and has spent his entire first year on the DL. If that pick doesn't work out than I could understand some of the criticism.

That's the key piece there... If it was anyone other than KWJR, on the DL with a shoulder injury, there wouldn't be this much doucebaggery. But people constantly look for reasons to hate management for whatever reason.

UofCSoxFan
09-02-2008, 09:54 AM
LOL, you keep listing players. Still doesn't change the fact that the MLB draft is a total crapshoot, even in the first round a lot of times. You're right, it's not like the NFL draft: it's much more difficult. The chances that we drafted a major league player in that sixth round are very, very small.

Here's another one of these for you: :whiner:



If your daddy was a manager, or even some way affiliated with a major league organization, you would get drafted too. It happens all around baseball. You're overreacting, and you look like a fool for doing it.

Oney Guillen is really killing the minor league system. I could just imagine where would be without him: the same place.

You're completely missing my point.

If you don't see the difference between curtousey drafting a family member and keeping him in your minor league system for two years (and promoting him to AAA no less) then I don't know what to tell you. The difference is huge.

The fact that the major league draft is hard doesn't mean you don't try to draft the best players and instead take friends and family....it's an argument that you try to make every pick count because of the low "hit" rate. The reason I'm listing players is that your statement "chance is slim to none" that we'll find anyone outside the first few rounds is absurd. Doing an unscientific look at past 6th round drafts on baseball-reference.com every year there are between 5 and 10 players that make the major leagues. That's 20% to 33%...which means that these players aren't sure fire, but it certainly isn't like winning the lottery either. You might as well take someone with potential versus someone that was a mediocre Division III player.

Your arguement can be summed up as follows: 1) It's OK for people to be judged by who they know over their abilities in a game that is judged soley on winning and losing. 2) If something is difficult, it's a justification for not putting forth your best effort. That's a great way to run an organization.

And to Frater's point about KW Jr. I agree. That wasn't a nepotism pick (although the familiarity with KW Jr. certainly played a roll as the Sox undoubtedly where familiar with his abilities). They think he has major league potential..which he may. After all, Wichita State is a helluva better program than North Park which is a very weak division III team (we beat them by 20 runs my sophomore year). I have a much greater issue that Guillen is still in this organization than the fact that we drafted KW Jr. in the 6th round.

Oney in the organization is the result 100% of who his father is. To me, it's unethical that he is taking the spot of someone that deserves to be there...even if it's the final roster spot on the rookie ball team.

KW Jr. in the organization is the result of what may or may not be a reach of draft pick....which is no different than the Joe Borchards and Chris Snopeks of the world. The kid has talent and would have been taken by another team had the Sox not done so. That's the difference.

I have no problem drafting Sox family members if they are good. Hell, Guillen's kid that's in high school now is likely a first round pick. Take him in a heartbeat if you think he'll improve the team and I won't have a problem with it at all.

And yes I know this isn't a Sox only phenomenon. Piazza was drafted because his godfather was Tommy Lasorda. Ken Macha (from the A's) son was drafted out of Case Western (another DIII school)...of course he was a DIII All American and hit over .400 that year. The thing is with these family member picks is they don't stick around for mutliple years when it is clear that they can't produce. If they can, they are treated like everyone else and progress based on their abilities. I would have loved for Oney to have taken his opportunity and looked even average to justify his roster spot. It would have been a great story. This isn't fantasy baseball camp though. He has no business in professional baseball.

Adele_H
09-02-2008, 01:50 PM
I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. .

I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record.... But you're wrong.

A ton of good players went after the "lottery" phase of the 1st round throughout baseball - including quite a few in the 4-9 rounds. I remember being suprised by the quality of non-Top 10 picks, a veritable who's who.

EMachine10
09-02-2008, 02:08 PM
I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record.... But you're wrong.

A ton of good players went after the "lottery" phase of the 1st round throughout baseball - including quite a few in the 4-9 rounds. I remember being suprised by the quality of non-Top 10 picks, a veritable who's who.
Oney was drafted with the 1102nd overall pick in round 36. Not rounds 4-9. Oney is who this argument has started upon. Not KWJr. Junior Williams was projected to go somewhere within the first 10 rounds or so. Did we reach a little for him, perhaps. But our organization has complained about the lack of athleticism in regards to our organizational depth, and that was the determining factor in drafting Williams. Not personal interest. Did it contribute somewhat? Yeah, I'd say. But we did not draft him solely based on name recognition. If he weren't hurt and if he were hitting .350, noboby would care that we drafted Kenny's son. Too many people find anything to complain about. I'm sure many of you would complain if Beckham got hurt and didn't perform well in his pro debut. Give it a rest.

Back to the original point about Oney, it's a moot point. I'm sure his 3 at bats in Charlotte did not raise an eyebrow outside of this message board.

jabrch
09-02-2008, 02:28 PM
Back to the original point about Oney, it's a moot point. I'm sure his 3 at bats in Charlotte did not raise an eyebrow outside of this message board.

There are loads of ignorant people out there - they don't JUST come to WSI.

rdivaldi
09-03-2008, 07:32 PM
I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record....

After this year I think it's time for some of the "our development sucks" crowd to take another look. There were some promising young players on our squad that are products of our system. We're improving and the future is looking good.