PDA

View Full Version : Win this year.....look to next year


HBaines03
08-31-2008, 05:23 PM
I look forward to this team making a push for the playoffs but I am also looking at what I would like to see for a team next year. One reason was a play in todays game. In the 9th inning, Konerko does not slide either in an attempt to be safe or take out the SS to avoid the double play. Than A. Ramirez gets on by a bunt single taking advantage of the 3rd baseman sitting back. He gave the team a chance to score a run by doing a "boring" little thing to get on. Crede than drives him in on a hit and run giving us a 3 run lead which was huge. Even Hawk and DJ were criticizing Alexei for bunting and than not trying to steal immediately. "If he doesn't steal 2nd base than he's giving up an at bat when he could have had a double or a home run" is what they were saying. My point is it's time to quit being so one dimensional and have players who can provide more to the team to extend innings and win maybe 4-6 more games by these actions. I am tired of Thome and Konerko "one base at a time" & "home run or nothing" mentallity. I value team defense especially with young pitchers. I would rather see line drives in the gaps or down the lines scoring runs than waiting for the 3 run HR. I just wanted to hear other opinions.............

DickAllen72
08-31-2008, 05:28 PM
For next year I'd like to see the Sox improve at CF, SS, 3B, & 1B. That's a lot of holes to fill, and it won't be easy or probably even possible, but you asked what I'd like to see.

delben91
08-31-2008, 05:30 PM
Judging from the last few days on this board, everyone on the team and in the minor leagues is useless, Ozzie is a moron, KW gets taken to school on every deal, Walker has no idea what he's talking about, and Mark Salas will never be as awesome as Man Soo Lee and should be canned as a result.

So in my opinion, unless you can get a team that goes 162-0 with all complete game perfect games and at least 15 runs scored each night, 10+ of which must be by means of something other than a home run, then you'll find someone out there that bitches about the result.

35th and Shields
08-31-2008, 05:35 PM
For next year I'd like to see the Sox improve at CF, SS, 3B, & 1B. That's a lot of holes to fill, and it won't be easy or probably even possible, but you asked what I'd like to see.

I'm more worried about getting a 5th starter next year. Our offense will be fine with the vast majority of it returning but with Jose likely done and with no one completely solidifying the 5th spot, I think that should be our first priority.

wassagstdu
08-31-2008, 05:47 PM
I look forward to this team making a push for the playoffs but I am also looking at what I would like to see for a team next year. One reason was a play in todays game. In the 9th inning, Konerko does not slide either in an attempt to be safe or take out the SS to avoid the double play. Than A. Ramirez gets on by a bunt single taking advantage of the 3rd baseman sitting back. He gave the team a chance to score a run by doing a "boring" little thing to get on. Crede than drives him in on a hit and run giving us a 3 run lead which was huge. Even Hawk and DJ were criticizing Alexei for bunting and than not trying to steal immediately. "If he doesn't steal 2nd base than he's giving up an at bat when he could have had a double or a home run" is what they were saying. My point is it's time to quit being so one dimensional and have players who can provide more to the team to extend innings and win maybe 4-6 more games by these actions. I am tired of Thome and Konerko "one base at a time" & "home run or nothing" mentallity. I value team defense especially with young pitchers. I would rather see line drives in the gaps or down the lines scoring runs than waiting for the 3 run HR. I just wanted to hear other opinions.............
I agree 100%. This is an Earl Weaver team, not an Ozzie Guillen team. And they don't quite have the pitching to pull that off. We need another Scott Podsednik (CF) and Tadahito Iguchi (2005 version; 2B). I think we are set at SS and I am happy with Uribe at 3B. And Swisher needs to stop imitating Thome and start playing the game.

Rockinsox05
08-31-2008, 05:56 PM
Judging from the last few days on this board, everyone on the team and in the minor leagues is useless, Ozzie is a moron, KW gets taken to school on every deal, Walker has no idea what he's talking about, and Mark Salas will never be as awesome as Man Soo Lee and should be canned as a result.

So in my opinion, unless you can get a team that goes 162-0 with all complete game perfect games and at least 15 runs scored each night, 10+ of which must be by means of something other than a home run, then you'll find someone out there that bitches about the result.


Nice summary

Rockinsox05
08-31-2008, 05:57 PM
I look forward to this team making a push for the playoffs but I am also looking at what I would like to see for a team next year. One reason was a play in todays game. In the 9th inning, Konerko does not slide either in an attempt to be safe or take out the SS to avoid the double play. Than A. Ramirez gets on by a bunt single taking advantage of the 3rd baseman sitting back. He gave the team a chance to score a run by doing a "boring" little thing to get on. Crede than drives him in on a hit and run giving us a 3 run lead which was huge. Even Hawk and DJ were criticizing Alexei for bunting and than not trying to steal immediately. "If he doesn't steal 2nd base than he's giving up an at bat when he could have had a double or a home run" is what they were saying. My point is it's time to quit being so one dimensional and have players who can provide more to the team to extend innings and win maybe 4-6 more games by these actions. I am tired of Thome and Konerko "one base at a time" & "home run or nothing" mentallity. I value team defense especially with young pitchers. I would rather see line drives in the gaps or down the lines scoring runs than waiting for the 3 run HR. I just wanted to hear other opinions.............


Paulie never hustles down to second. It really pisses me off.

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 05:58 PM
You're right, no team could possibly win any pennants with Jim Thome and Paul Konerko.

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 06:00 PM
Seriously you're praising Alexei for helping to get that 1 run in the 9th and yet bitching about the 2 guys who scored our other 3 runs?

kevingrt
08-31-2008, 06:22 PM
For next year I'd like to see the Sox improve at CF, SS, 3B, & 1B. That's a lot of holes to fill, and it won't be easy or probably even possible, but you asked what I'd like to see.

I completely agree with you in all those facets, however I think Alexei gets moved to SS, so 2B would be a nice position to upgrade. And as always improving the bullpen would be greatly appreciated despite how hard it is to do.

ChiSoxFan7
08-31-2008, 06:33 PM
I think when Alexei is ready he'll be our number 2 or 5 hitter.


oc is manageable and 3rd is alright.


I think our biggest problem is that we have no speed coming from our outfield. SPEED KILLS and we have none out there. Swish is not that fast, BA doesn't get on to kill, JR is JR...so i think an upgrade to a faster high OBP kinda guy in CF along with a 2 hitter Alexei will solve a lot of our offensive woes

Adele_H
08-31-2008, 06:34 PM
I look forward to this team making a push for the playoffs but I am also looking at what I would like to see for a team next year.............


Sad reality is: we've all known that Konerko's salary needs to come off the books in the off-season for some time now - and it has little to do with him not sliding on a play on which he would have been out anyway. At this point, I half-expect Paulie to shatter into perfectly rectangular pieces any time he has to slide, so maybe it was a good thing he didn't.

Worry about this year, the here and now. Enjoy it while it lasts. And so forth.

Also: what you have to realize is that a lot of what will happen NEXT year will largely depend on what happens THIS year. If Sox reach World Series, KW will have an extended budget to get his dream players in 2009. But if Sox fold in September like they did in 2003, budget gets slashed and K-Dub is forced to troll the bargain bins again - not that he isn't good at, mind you - while the organization goes through a quasi rebuilding phase.

Brian26
08-31-2008, 06:35 PM
Paulie never hustles down to second. It really pisses me off.

Paulie's lucky if he gets within 20-ft of 2nd base on double-plays, so him taking someone out usually isn't as issue.

Irregardless of that, Konerko and Thome are probably the two guys on this team that can get away with that, and deservedly so. Having Carlos Lee pull the same stunt is a different scenario for a different time.

Brian26
08-31-2008, 06:39 PM
I am tired of Thome and Konerko "one base at a time" & "home run or nothing" mentallity.

Your post is all over the map, but the bottom line is that you need a couple of guys in your lineup like Thome and Konerko no matter what kind of team you're trying to build if you want to be successful. Take all of the big boppers out of the lineup and you're left with the 1989 White Sox with Dan Pasqua and Carlos Martinez batting 3rd and 4th.

Daver
08-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Also: what you have to realize is that a lot of what will happen NEXT year will largely depend on what happens THIS year. If Sox reach World Series, KW will have an extended budget to get his dream players in 2009. But if Sox fold in September like they did in 2003, budget gets slashed and K-Dub is forced to troll the bargain bins again - not that he isn't good at, mind you - while the organization goes through a quasi rebuilding phase.

You base this pure baseless speculation on what?

Tragg
08-31-2008, 06:40 PM
The Sox tried to turn this team into an Ozzie-offense in 2007 and the results were the league's worst offense. Forget that.

We need a leadoff hitter. We need to run the bases well -but we don't need to steal bases much in front of Quentin and Dye.

Uribe at 3B is a bad as it gets...you just can't have a bad hitter at 3B and be a complete team (and his D isn't nearly good enough to overcome it). Crede shouldn't be expensive now.

Could use more arms in the pen....probably have to develop those ourselves. Stop trading young players for MacDougal, Sisco, Ramirez, et al.
Sign a fifth starter in free agency.

Adele_H
08-31-2008, 07:02 PM
Stop trading young players for MacDougal, Sisco, Ramirez, et al.

MacDougal was very good for us in 2006. Yes, giving him an extension was a mistake, but In 2007, he wouldn't have made a difference regardless. This year, we simply have better relievers in Linerbink and Carrasco (and Dotel in the 1st half wasn't too shabby either).

Everyone agrees that Sox need a top of the order dynamo in the Ichiro-Reyes-Furcal-Rollins-Pedroia-Damon mold.

That will enable the Sox to put Alexei in the #2 hole for which he IMO is ideally suited (presant inability to work the pitchers notwithstanding) in the longer-term.

In today's game in AL you still need TCQ, Dye and Thome to mash... Ozzieball or not.

Crede is tricky. You know Boras won't let him sign a one-year "try-out" deal we're all clamoring for if Crede is in any condition short of wheelchair. I'll be very suprised if Joe is back.

Sox need to put Anderson in CF and lose the key, so to speak. He'll suprise a lot of people.

2B could be either O-Dawg or Getz, depending if the Sox slash the enormous 120+ Million dollar (it's still historically high even with money paid by Phillies) payroll target or not.

That and Richard holding fort until/unless Contreras miraculously recovers mid-season.

Finally, just hope that Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Carasco-Dotel-LOOGY stays reasonably healthy and not as schitzo as this year.:cool:

turners56
08-31-2008, 07:02 PM
Right now, our only contact hitters that start everyday are Alexei and Cabrera. You might be able to throw in A.J. too. As for everybody else, it's swing for the fence and hope you make contact.

So basically, we need more speedy contact hitters in this lineup to have a better mix of guys. Not just station to station. That run Ramirez scored in the 9th was a thing of beauty, he can fly. If we can get some more contact hitters with speed next year to replace our slow guys, I'd be very happy. Now, I'm not saying we should abandon the power hitters, I'm just vying for more of a mix.

turners56
08-31-2008, 07:04 PM
MacDougal was very good for us in 2006. Yes, giving him an extension was a mistake, but In 2007, he wouldn't have made a difference regardless. This year, we simply have better relievers in Linerbink and Carrasco (and Dotel in the 1st half wasn't too shabby either).

Everyone agrees that Sox need a top of the order dynamo in the Ichiro-Furcal-Rollins-Pedroia-Damon mold.

That will enable the Sox to put Alexei in the #2 hole for which he IMO is ideally suited (presant inability to work the pitchers notwithstanding) in the longer-term.

Still need TCQ, Dye and Thome to mash... Ozzieball or not.

Crede is tricky. You know Boras won't let him sign a one-year "try-out" deal we're all clamoring for if Crede is in any condition short of wheelchair. I'll be very suprised if Joe is back.

Sox need to put Anderson in CF and lose the key, so to speak.

2B could be either O-Dawg or Getz, depending if the Sox slash the enormous 120+ Million dollar (it's still historically high even with money paid by Phillies) payroll target or not.

That and Richard holding fort until/unless Contreras miraculously recovers mid-season.

Finally, just hope that Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Carasco-Dotel-LOOGY stays reasonably healthy and not as schitzo as this year.:cool:

Chris Getz can possibly fill the void in the two-hole next season. I think Alexei should be given the lead-off job next year, hands down. OC's not going to stay.

Craig Grebeck
08-31-2008, 07:14 PM
Right now, our only contact hitters that start everyday are Alexei and Cabrera. You might be able to throw in A.J. too. As for everybody else, it's swing for the fence and hope you make contact.

So basically, we need more speedy contact hitters in this lineup to have a better mix of guys. Not just station to station. That run Ramirez scored in the 9th was a thing of beauty, he can fly. If we can get some more contact hitters with speed next year to replace our slow guys, I'd be very happy. Now, I'm not saying we should abandon the power hitters, I'm just vying for more of a mix.
Quentin? Dye? Are they simply "swing for the fence and hope you make contact" hitters?

Do you read what you type?

Rdy2PlayBall
08-31-2008, 07:27 PM
You are saying you want the Sox to become the Twins? :scratch:

3 runs HRs are much, MUCH more exciting in my opinion... and when they come practicley every game, I am perfectly fine with that. If your team can do that, why not? Konerko is no longer stuggling,

-Alexei, Quentin, Dye, Pierzinski, Cabrera, Crede, Uribe all can handle their jobs very well on defence... and more than half of them can hit it out of the park.

The day the Sox stop hitting homeruns like they do I will cry. :whiner:

turners56
08-31-2008, 07:43 PM
Quentin? Dye? Are they simply "swing for the fence and hope you make contact" hitters?

Do you read what you type?

Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration (what I said is more like Thome), but those two do lead the AL in home runs you know. Jermaine is going to strike out 100+ times this season and Carlos may strike out 90 times. Those guys aren't contact hitters. Whenever you hit for power like them, you sacrifice contact at times.

turners56
08-31-2008, 07:45 PM
You are saying you want the Sox to become the Twins? :scratch:

3 runs HRs are much, MUCH more exciting in my opinion... and when they come practicley every game, I am perfectly fine with that. If your team can do that, why not? Konerko is no longer stuggling,

-Alexei, Quentin, Dye, Pierzinski, Cabrera, Crede, Uribe all can handle their jobs very well on defence... and more than half of them can hit it out of the park.

The day the Sox stop hitting homeruns like they do I will cry. :whiner:

Once again, I think I might of exaggerated. But then again, why is it that the Twins have almost as many runs as the White Sox, but half as many home runs? Bottom line, we need a couple of guys like Alexei who can be a contact hitter when need be. We'd be a much better team this year if we had another player like that.

kevingrt
08-31-2008, 08:01 PM
You base this pure baseless speculation on what?

He's really KW. He knows a lot.

delben91
08-31-2008, 08:08 PM
Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration (what I said is more like Thome), but those two do lead the AL in home runs you know. Jermaine is going to strike out 100+ times this season and Carlos may strike out 90 times. Those guys aren't contact hitters. Whenever you hit for power like them, you sacrifice contact at times.

So you'd rather the Sox didn't have Carlos Quentin? Who do you propose to replace him with? There's Tyner in AAA, I'm sure he'd be vastly superior, he's never swung for the fences in his life.

Frater Perdurabo
08-31-2008, 08:16 PM
There's nothing wrong with hitting home runs.

But what happens when you face great pitching and the homers aren't flying? You lose.

I want a pennant this year.

And for next year:

I want more balance, higher average, and better speed in the lineup.

I want better defense in CF.

I want a top-notch starting pitcher .

I want a "closer-quality" reliever added as a set-up guy (Jenks 9th, new guy 8th, Linebrink 7th, Dotel/Thornton 6th).

Zisk77
08-31-2008, 08:33 PM
The Sox tried to turn this team into an Ozzie-offense in 2007 and the results were the league's worst offense. Forget that.

We need a leadoff hitter. We need to run the bases well -but we don't need to steal bases much in front of Quentin and Dye.

Uribe at 3B is a bad as it gets...you just can't have a bad hitter at 3B and be a complete team (and his D isn't nearly good enough to overcome it). Crede shouldn't be expensive now.

Could use more arms in the pen....probably have to develop those ourselves. Stop trading young players for MacDougal, Sisco, Ramirez, et al.
Sign a fifth starter in free agency.


I'm calling BS on this one. We had the same all or nothing hitters on that team as this one. There was just very little "all" and a whole lotta "nothing" last year. I think you can have a little better balance on the team without being the twins or the reds. For example maybe something like this.

c A. J.
1b Swisher
2b Hudson or something similar
ss Alexie or plays cf or 2b if the fa leadoff/speed guy is a ss or oc excepts arbitration.
3b Fields
Lf Quentin
Rf Dye
Cf Figgins Or he plays 3b or 2b
Dh Konerko

Now before someone starts arguing that it can't happen because he isn't a fa or whatever, its just an example of what could be done. We don't actually want the Orlando Hudson just someone similar to Orlando Hudson. :D:

Adele_H
08-31-2008, 08:41 PM
Chris Getz can possibly fill the void in the two-hole next season. I think Alexei should be given the lead-off job next year, hands down. OC's not going to stay.

Baseball economics may dictate Sox go the cheap route at least at a couple of positions, of which 2B may be one. Sox just can't continue to plug holes with over-priced FA or even via farm-depleting trades. We are not the Yankees or even the Cubs. Well not yet, anyway.:cool:

Ideally, Getz begins the season as a utility player and earns the job with stellar play in limited doses. I am still not sold on him completely, although early impressions weren't bad. Getz is still an unknown, and with Brian Anderson (hopefully) projecting to be the #9 hitter/defensive specialist, you can't afford another hole in the line-up in Getz - especially if Uribe is brought back............Not in 2009, not in AL, not with both Detroit & Cleveland likely coming back stronger/wiser, anyway.

Alexei just doesn't get on base often enough and doesn't read pitchers' moves well enough to be a lead-off guy at this point. Wheras in the 2 hole, in front of Quentin & Dye, especially with the lead-off runner already on base, with his innate fearlessness & bat-control/speed Alexei suddenly becomes one of the most dangerous hitters in the game.

I agree with others that the last person who could legitimately be deemed an "all-or nothing problem" is Carlos Quentin. However, Dye, Konerko, Swisher simply must improve their improduction AWAY from USCF if the Sox are to play better on the road and, by extension, to become a truly well-rounded, feared team. Especially against the better pitchers who can, to an extent, neutralize those bigger strides & loopier, almost uppercut like swings.

Adele_H
08-31-2008, 08:57 PM
There's nothing wrong with hitting home runs.



Not all home runs are born equal.

A great hitter with super-quick, compact all-field swing, who can work the count in his favor, instinctively knows the pitcher's tendencies, and gets a pitch in his desired location... can do a lot of damage even off the best pitchers.

But when you have a very strong guy who's behind in the count a lot, has poor balance & a loopy, pull-happy swing... Well, he can still get his share of HR off bad & mediocre pitching in lower-pressure situations - but when push comes the shove, the best pitchers eat him alive.

So, yeah, I love HR, too, and would rather have the former HR hitter than the latter. :D:




I want better defense in CF.

I want a top-notch starting pitcher .

I want a "closer-quality" reliever added as a set-up guy (Jenks 9th, new guy 8th, Linebrink 7th, Dotel/Thornton 6th).


But we have better (and much cheaper) defense in CF in Brian Anderson.

Yeah, an ace-horse SP wouldn't hurt. Before we traded DLS, Sweeney and Gio for Swisher, I wanted them used as part of a blockbuster deal for Roy Halladay when Doc was momentarily rumored to be available...... Obviously now the Sox may not have the pieces to pull off such a coup. And I don't want CC Sabathia for gazzillion millions; would rather take my chances on the current staff + Contreras.

Your 6th inning is a bit on the expensive side. Not to mention your mysterious "closer-quality" 8th inning guy will probably give JR a coronary when his initial "closer-quality" offer is submitted. :tongue:

DSpivack
08-31-2008, 09:07 PM
Right now, our only contact hitters that start everyday are Alexei and Cabrera. You might be able to throw in A.J. too. As for everybody else, it's swing for the fence and hope you make contact.

So basically, we need more speedy contact hitters in this lineup to have a better mix of guys. Not just station to station. That run Ramirez scored in the 9th was a thing of beauty, he can fly. If we can get some more contact hitters with speed next year to replace our slow guys, I'd be very happy. Now, I'm not saying we should abandon the power hitters, I'm just vying for more of a mix.

Alexei is a contact hitter? Sure, he has some speed, but he seems to me he's more of a guy who drives the ball and who has quite a bit of power while not getting on base very consistently. The only reason, say, Alfonso Soriano has consistently led off in his career is because of stupidity.

Daver
08-31-2008, 09:08 PM
Hey Dima, are you going to answer my question, or is this just another attempt at self gratification?

HBaines03
08-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Your post is all over the map, but the bottom line is that you need a couple of guys in your lineup like Thome and Konerko no matter what kind of team you're trying to build if you want to be successful. Take all of the big boppers out of the lineup and you're left with the 1989 White Sox with Dan Pasqua and Carlos Martinez batting 3rd and 4th.
I get tired of watching Paulie or Thome run from 2nd to 3rd on a base hit that 90% of the majors could score on. I get frustrated watching both of them have the same swing on 0-2 count as they do on a 3-0 count. Granted Paulie is hitting better in the 2nd half but you can't get much worse than his first half. I want guys like Dye or Quentin who can go the other way with 2 strikes and drive in a run without the use of the HR in key situations. I want guys who can get on via the bunt or squib infield hit to keep innings alive and at least have the chance of something positive happening. It puts pressure on the other team just as we have faced so many times this year.

Frater Perdurabo
08-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Not all home runs are born equal.

A great hitter with super-quick, compact all-field swing, who can work the count in his favor, instinctively knows the pitcher's tendencies, and gets a pitch in his desired location... can do a lot of damage even off the best pitchers.

But when you have a very strong guy who's behind in the count a lot, has poor balance & a loopy, pull-happy swing... Well, he can still get his share of HR off bad & mediocre pitching in lower-pressure situations - but when push comes the shove, the best pitchers eat him alive.

So, yeah, I love HR, too, and would rather have the former HR hitter than the latter. :D:

Agreed.

But we have better (and much cheaper) defense in CF in Brian Anderson.

I'm fine with BA in CF and batting ninth.

Yeah, an ace-horse SP wouldn't hurt. Before we traded DLS, Sweeney and Gio for Swisher, I wanted them used as part of a blockbuster deal for Roy Halladay when Doc was momentarily rumored to be available...... Obviously now the Sox may not have the pieces to pull off such a coup. And I don't want CC Sabathia for gazzillion millions; would rather take my chances on the current staff + Contreras.

I don't think Contreras will be back for the start of next season, if ever.

I want the best possible starting pitcher. The better he is, the better for the Sox. Bump everyone down a spot. I like Vazquez better as the fifth-best starter in the rotation than counted on to be the fourth-best.

Your 6th inning is a bit on the expensive side. Not to mention your mysterious "closer-quality" 8th inning guy will probably give JR a coronary when his initial "closer-quality" offer is submitted. :tongue:

How about Brian Fuentes to pitch the eighth? And what's more costly? A great bullpen? Or more missed opportunities to win games and make the playoffs.

Brian26
08-31-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure why Swisher and his .227 average continue to get a free pass by most people here. He's batting .246 on his career now.

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 09:54 PM
I get tired of watching Paulie or Thome run from 2nd to 3rd on a base hit that 90% of the majors could score on. I get frustrated watching both of them have the same swing on 0-2 count as they do on a 3-0 count. Granted Paulie is hitting better in the 2nd half but you can't get much worse than his first half. I want guys like Dye or Quentin who can go the other way with 2 strikes and drive in a run without the use of the HR in key situations. I want guys who can get on via the bunt or squib infield hit to keep innings alive and at least have the chance of something positive happening. It puts pressure on the other team just as we have faced so many times this year.

Were you in the bathroom during the 6th inning?

Frater Perdurabo
08-31-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm not sure why Swisher and his .227 average continue to get a free pass by most people here. He's batting .246 on his career now.

Overall I'm not pleased with his performance this year, but he's OPS-ed .922 for August and I'm inclined to let it roll if he can replicate it in September.

Frater Perdurabo
08-31-2008, 09:59 PM
For August, BA is out-hitting, out-slugging and definitely out-fielding Griffey.

chisoxfanatic
08-31-2008, 10:01 PM
For August, BA is out-hitting, out-slugging and definitely out-fielding Griffey.
I honestly do not understand why BA hasn't been able to start at least a couple games recently. I'm not complaining about the win today; but, it wouldn't you want BA to be playing, especially with that weird CF in Boston?

HBaines03
08-31-2008, 10:06 PM
Were you in the bathroom during the 6th inning?
Have you watched all season?

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 10:13 PM
I haven't been happy with Swisher's year, but I don't know what there is to do about it :dunno:

He's young and we still have him for a bit and I doubt that he's going anywhere so I hope he can hit like its 2006 or even 2007 next year.

Frater Perdurabo
08-31-2008, 10:20 PM
One other thing I'd like in 2009: a backup catcher who receives and throws better than Toby Hall.

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 10:21 PM
Have you watched all season?

Konerko and Thome struggled to start the season. Thome's been on a 3 month tear hitting about .400/.600/.280 since the start of June and Konerko's hitting .483/.591/.333 in August.

They went 4-8 with 2 2b 1 HR 2 R and 3 RBI today and you chose today to make a thread about them?

There is just no way on earth that having Jim Thome and Paul Konerko hitting up to their capabilities as a 5th and 6th hitter is a bad thing. If you take our Lineup and give us a Sizemore or Granderson batting leadoff with Cabrera batting second and we have the best lineup in the league.

JB98
08-31-2008, 10:23 PM
I'm curious as to why Thome's name always gets thrown in there when people criticize Konerko. Thome got off to a terrible start this year, but he's basically been raking for the last three months. No, Thome can't run, but since when has speed been an important quality in a DH?

Brian26
08-31-2008, 10:26 PM
No, Thome can't run, but since when has speed been an important quality in a DH?

He certainly doesn't need any wheels to score from 2nd when Swisher is up to bat with two outs.

Lukin13
08-31-2008, 10:27 PM
Judging from the last few days on this board, everyone on the team and in the minor leagues is useless, Ozzie is a moron, KW gets taken to school on every deal, Walker has no idea what he's talking about, and Mark Salas will never be as awesome as Man Soo Lee and should be canned as a result.

So in my opinion, unless you can get a team that goes 162-0 with all complete game perfect games and at least 15 runs scored each night, 10+ of which must be by means of something other than a home run, then you'll find someone out there that bitches about the result.


You know what is worse than the constant bitching on this board???

The person that comes along in the second or third post and tells everyone to stop complaining that all people here do is complain.

I have come to the conclusion that this team is hard to watch on an everyday basis. While they may not be a bad team in terms of wins and losses, the majority of the time they play very poor baseball. They are the new definition of Winning Ugly. They play ugly baseball then win with dingers. Nothing wrong with that, but when the ball isn't flying out of the ballpark it is hard to feel or say anything positive about our '08 WSox.. especially the offense and defense.

A few other unrelated points I would like to bring up:

Why the hell didn't Ozzie pinch run for PK in the 9th with Anderson? I thought for sure he must have been sick or something, but sure enough out he came in the 9th to play CF. Swisher could have moved to 1st and Griffey to Right... downright bad managing by Ozzie.

Why all the hype about Pedrioa for MVP in Boston?? Are they crazy??? I know he is likeable and a nice player.... BUT the dude is mostly a singles hitter with a .370 OBP! Plenty of guys with more power, and higher OBP. Turn half of Jack Cust's walks into singles and he is hitting .350 with 30HR and still has average walk numbers... the only difference is Cust is only hitting .228 and no one would ever dream of talking MVP with him or any of the other high OBP players.

Lillian
08-31-2008, 10:40 PM
The biggest missing piece for this team to be a contender for another World Championship is one more starter. We don't need another back of the rotation guy, but rather a Staff Ace. Unfortunately, I have no idea from where he would come.
If the Sox do make it into the playoffs this year, do any of you really have confidence in any of our starters? Who would start game one?
Javy has pretty well established by now that he is not a big game pitcher, and that he is very inconsistent.
Mark seems to have lost a couple of MPH on his fastball, again, and looks like he could melt down at any moment (shades of 2006).
Danks looks like he may be running out of gas. I thought he might be able to keep it up for the whole season, since adding the cutter, but that now seems a little doubtful. I guess that's always a concern with a small framed pitcher.
Floyd has become the staff Ace, by default, but he isn't yet in the same class with the other Aces on contending teams, in either League.

As long as we're discussing needs, how about a true, lights out closer, like Jenks used to be. His heart stopping appearances always seems to make the last inning way to interesting. Could he be effectively used in some other role, other than closer?

JB98
08-31-2008, 10:40 PM
You know what is worse than the constant bitching on this board???

The person that comes along in the second or third post and tells everyone to stop complaining that all people here do is complain.

I have come to the conclusion that this team is hard to watch on an everyday basis. While they may not be a bad team in terms of wins and losses, the majority of the time they play very poor baseball. They are the new definition of Winning Ugly. They play ugly baseball then win with dingers. Nothing wrong with that, but when the ball isn't flying out of the ballpark it is hard to feel or say anything positive about our '08 WSox.. especially the offense and defense.

A few other unrelated points I would like to bring up:

Why the hell didn't Ozzie pinch run for PK in the 9th with Anderson? I thought for sure he must have been sick or something, but sure enough out he came in the 9th to play CF. Swisher could have moved to 1st and Griffey to Right... downright bad managing by Ozzie.

Why all the hype about Pedrioa for MVP in Boston?? Are they crazy??? I know he is likeable and a nice player.... BUT the dude is mostly a singles hitter with a .370 OBP! Plenty of guys with more power, and higher OBP. Turn half of Jack Cust's walks into singles and he is hitting .350 with 30HR and still has average walk numbers... the only difference is Cust is only hitting .228 and no one would ever dream of talking MVP with him or any of the other high OBP players.

Because Griffey, not PK, is the defensive liability on this club. I think you want to get Griffey off the field entirely in the late innings, not move him into RF with that silly corner at Fenway Park. I thought Ozzie made the right move. If Griffey had reached in the ninth, then you come with BA as a pinch-runner.

I don't want Griffey in CF, RF or anywhere when we are protecting a lead in the late innings. Konerko, while not a gold-glover by any means, is not a liability at 1B.

I agree with your point about Pedroia. The notion that he is the MVP is downright ridiculous.

JB98
08-31-2008, 10:43 PM
The biggest missing piece for this team to be a contender for another World Championship is one more starter. We don't need another back of the rotation guy, but rather a Staff Ace. Unfortunately, I have no idea from where he would come.
If the Sox do make it into the playoffs this year, do any of you really have confidence in any of our starters? Who would start game one?
Javy has pretty well established by now that he is not a big game pitcher, and that he is very inconsistent.
Mark seems to have lost a couple of MPH on his fastball, again, and looks like he could melt down at any moment (shades of 2006).
Danks looks like he may be running out of gas. I thought he might be able to keep it up for the whole season, since adding the cutter, but that now seems a little doubtful. I guess that's always a concern with a small framed pitcher.
Floyd has become the staff Ace, by default, but he isn't yet in the same class with the other Aces on contending teams, in either League.

As long as we're discussing needs, how about a true, lights out closer, like Jenks used to be. His heart stopping appearances always seems to make the last inning way to interesting. Could he be effectively used in some other role, other than closer?

Today was the first time in a month Bobby Jenks has given up a run. The man hasn't blown a save since he came off the DL. His ERA is below 2.00 and has been for most of the season. They aren't all going to be three up, three down. I know Bobby's K rate is down, but he is still a premier closer.

MISoxfan
08-31-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm curious as to why Thome's name always gets thrown in there when people criticize Konerko. Thome got off to a terrible start this year, but he's basically been raking for the last three months. No, Thome can't run, but since when has speed been an important quality in a DH?

Because he's slow and his average says .251? I really don't know. Thome was out hitting TCQ in June and July and people were still complaining about him.

turners56
08-31-2008, 10:46 PM
So you'd rather the Sox didn't have Carlos Quentin? Who do you propose to replace him with? There's Tyner in AAA, I'm sure he'd be vastly superior, he's never swung for the fences in his life.

Does it look like I hate either Dye or Quentin. Dude, all I'm saying is get a good contact hitter with some speed to play center field next year and have him bat in the 1 or 2 hole. No more, no less. Some of you are over exaggerating my words.

turners56
08-31-2008, 10:47 PM
Alexei is a contact hitter? Sure, he has some speed, but he seems to me he's more of a guy who drives the ball and who has quite a bit of power while not getting on base very consistently. The only reason, say, Alfonso Soriano has consistently led off in his career is because of stupidity.

He does make a lot of contact though, wouldn't you say? He rarely walks, but he's also a tough cookie to strike out. Why else would he be hitting .310?

voodoochile
08-31-2008, 10:48 PM
There's nothing wrong with hitting home runs.

But what happens when you face great pitching and the homers aren't flying? You lose.

I want a pennant this year.

And for next year:

I want more balance, higher average, and better speed in the lineup.

I want better defense in CF.

I want a top-notch starting pitcher .

I want a "closer-quality" reliever added as a set-up guy (Jenks 9th, new guy 8th, Linebrink 7th, Dotel/Thornton 6th).

That's a lot of money to spend. I doubt you'll see a bullpen upgrade and wouldn't be shocked to see them start next year with Swish/Anderson/Owens in CF. I expect Getz at 2B with Ramirez at SS and a one year deal with Crede who accepts arbitration hoping to get through next year healthy and then sign his long term contract. I expect Uribe to be signed as a utility guy, but since they will have to offer him at least 3.5M that might be pushing it. They might go after an aging SS or 3B and fill in the gaps elsewhere.

Thome is likely back and according to Daver, odds are Contreras contract is not covered by insurance so the Sox will not have those chunks to spend. Crede and Cabrera open up ~$15M but leave at least one hole to fill in their place.

Barring a major jump in payroll the Sox will have at most $20M to spend and it might be as little as 10. Most of that will go for a starting pitcher and the other gap created by losing our SS and 3B.

Expecting them to bring in another FA CF, SP and more relief help is seriously over estimating the amount of money they will have available, IMO.

Now in 2010 when Thome, Dye and Contreras all come off the books, they will have a ton of cash to spend...

turners56
08-31-2008, 10:51 PM
So you'd rather the Sox didn't have Carlos Quentin? Who do you propose to replace him with? There's Tyner in AAA, I'm sure he'd be vastly superior, he's never swung for the fences in his life.

I forgot to add something. It's not that I want this team to stop hitting the home run. Home runs are great, they're the ultimate hit in baseball. However, when you're launching solo shots all day, that's only one run. Why not have OBP guys at the top of the lineup get on base so your sluggers can hit a 2-run home run or a 3-run home run?

In addition, that's not the only benefit. A good reason why the Sox are a good team this year and not a great team is the fact that we struggle to produce runs. How many times have you seen our hitters pop up on the infield with a man on third and less than 2 outs? It just sickens me that we can't get the easy-runs home. Meanwhile, the Twins lead the league in hitting with RISP and RISP w/2 outs. I really do wish we had a better balance in this lineup, it's too slow and power-heavy.

JB98
08-31-2008, 10:51 PM
Because he's slow and his average says .251? I really don't know. Thome was out hitting TCQ in June and July and people were still complaining about him.

Sometimes the first impression lasts with people, I guess. Big Jim did suck the first six weeks of this season. People wanted him DFA. But when all is said and done, he's gonna have his 35 HRs again. He'll have 90 RBIs, maybe close to 100 if he hits another hot streak. He's been real solid for us since June 1.

Thome has done his job this year. He shouldn't be lumped in with Konerko, who was either injured or struggling all the way through the month of July. Paulie has played well in August. Hopefully, he continues to get hits the remainder of the year.

Lillian
08-31-2008, 10:52 PM
Today was the first time in a month Bobby Jenks has given up a run. The man hasn't blown a save since he came off the DL. His ERA is below 2.00 and has been for most of the season. They aren't all going to be three up, three down. I know Bobby's K rate is down, but he is still a premier closer.

You're right. I retract my comment about Bobby. After looking up his season game log, I concur with your assessment. It just had seemed to me that I recalled so many tense last innings with him on the mound.
However the stats don't support that impression. Thanks for pointing it out.

JB98
08-31-2008, 10:56 PM
I forgot to add something. It's not that I want this team to stop hitting the home run. Home runs are great, they're the ultimate hit in baseball. However, when you're launching solo shots all day, that's only one run. Why not have OBP guys at the top of the lineup get on base so your sluggers can hit a 2-run home run or a 3-run home run?

In addition, that's not the only benefit. A good reason why the Sox are a good team this year and not a great team is the fact that we struggle to produce runs. How many times have you seen our hitters pop up on the infield with a man on third and less than 2 outs? It just sickens me that we can't get the easy-runs home. Meanwhile, the Twins lead the league in hitting with RISP and RISP w/2 outs. I really do wish we had a better balance in this lineup, it's too slow and power-heavy.

I don't feel like all our home runs are solo shots this year. That was 2007. I think the Sox have hit a lot of 2-run and 3-run homers this year.

They do need to improve with RISP and two outs. The situational hitting is not great. But I don't see us hitting a bunch of solo shots this year. There have been many, many game-changing, multi-run homers belted this year by the Sox.

JB98
08-31-2008, 11:02 PM
You're right. I retract my comment about Bobby. After looking up his season game log, I concur with your assessment. It just had seemed to me that I recalled so many tense last innings with him on the mound.
However the stats don't support that impression. Thanks for pointing it out.

The tough, heart-attack saves are always the ones that stick out in people's minds. That's just human nature. When we faced Boston at home, Bobby mowed down the Red Sox in 1-2-3 fashion to protect a 6-5 lead. He got Ellsbury and Pedroia out with ease and left Ortiz in the on-deck circle. That's easy to forget because there was no drama.

Jenks had a string of high-wire acts in June. Little did we know at the time he was pitching at less than 100 percent. Since coming off the DL, the big man has been a reliable reliever for us, as usual.

DSpivack
08-31-2008, 11:07 PM
He does make a lot of contact though, wouldn't you say? He rarely walks, but he's also a tough cookie to strike out. Why else would he be hitting .310?

You're right about that, but he has too much power, and doesn't get on base enough, to be batting leadoff. He's much better off in a position where he can drive in runs.

Adele_H
08-31-2008, 11:54 PM
I'm fine with BA in CF and batting ninth.
.

Phew. I thought I was the only one.


don't think Contreras will be back for the start of next season, if ever.

You probably can't trade him. He makes a lot of money to sit on the bench the entire season. He still has a 94 mph fastball & a very good (if no longer consistently devastating) forkball. If anyone will do everything possible to return, it's Contreras.

In the meantime, Richard will (have to) hold down the #5 spot until/unless the Count is ready. It's about time Sox live or die with their scouting/development as teams like Minnesota, Cleveland, even Colorado have recently, for a change. That's the only way Sox will improve their scouting/development, if they realized how critical it is to winning and made it a true priority.


I want the best possible starting pitcher. The better he is, the better for the Sox. Bump everyone down a spot. I like Vazquez better as the fifth-best starter in the rotation than counted on to be the fourth-best.



You're right. I don't think the Sox have had a true #1 pitcher - you know, that super-dude who can toe the rubber in Games 1, 4 and 7 of ALCS and not blink...... in over 2 years if not longer.

I wanted the 'Garland + top prospects for Halladay' ditty or something like along those lines to happen as much as the next guy.

But we also have to look at cold hard reality:

1. Signing that kind of ace-horse you're talking about nowdays recquires an offer in 100-150 Million dollar range. Between our financial constraints & JR's philospophy on signing pitchers to long-term deals.... Forget about it!

2. Unless Sox are willing to part with Quentin, Danks, Alexei (which would almost defeat the purpose) chances are you don't get a guy like that in a trade as easily anymore.

3. Now the aformentioned *bumping*, I am sure you realize that the proposed 5th starter Vazquez is making 13 Mill a year. Some of it may be paid by Arizona, but do you understand that even the Yankees don't have that kind of luxury these days? Not that Buerhle and Contreras are cheap, either. And I am sure Gavin Floyd will be due for a nice salary arbit. bump in a couple of years the way he's been going lately...



How about Brian Fuentes to pitch the eighth?


Fuentes is nice, but how much better is he than a healthy Dotel when you transplant him from meaningless NL games into AL pressure-cookers? Plus, at 34 or whatever he is, he might want a longer deal at a hefty price.

Nevermind that bullpens in general are fickle from year-to-year.


And what's more costly? A great bullpen? Or more missed opportunities to win games and make the playoffs


I don't disagree, I am just saying that the $$$ may not necessarily work.

Right now the full roster sits at what, 125 Mill or some such? All I know is we're right up there with the Mets and the Red Sox. So with some of the proposed changes and dream scenarios, you could be looking at, what, 130-140 Mill? Sure, Philly and Arizona and whomever else might be pitching in, but still... are you kidding me??!!

As recently as 4-5 years ago, Sox payroll sat around 50 Mill; I know the revenue picture has improved since then, but by that much?

(Incidentally, that's why it's so important for the Sox to have a great September and at least a good October, creating World Series buzz & reaping extra revenue. With the likely improvement from Cleveland and especially Detroit in 2009 that may result in a 4-team bloodbath ala 2006.... Sox are going to need every nickel spent wisely in the off-season. Hard decisions will have to be made re: guys like Konerko, Contreras, Crede, even Linebrink if he doesn't come back effectively.

IMO.:cool:)

WhiteSoxOnly
09-01-2008, 12:07 AM
The biggest missing piece for this team to be a contender for another World Championship is one more starter. We don't need another back of the rotation guy, but rather a Staff Ace. Unfortunately, I have no idea from where he would come.
If the Sox do make it into the playoffs this year, do any of you really have confidence in any of our starters? Who would start game one?
Javy has pretty well established by now that he is not a big game pitcher, and that he is very inconsistent.
Mark seems to have lost a couple of MPH on his fastball, again, and looks like he could melt down at any moment (shades of 2006).
Danks looks like he may be running out of gas. I thought he might be able to keep it up for the whole season, since adding the cutter, but that now seems a little doubtful. I guess that's always a concern with a small framed pitcher.
Floyd has become the staff Ace, by default, but he isn't yet in the same class with the other Aces on contending teams, in either League.

As long as we're discussing needs, how about a true, lights out closer, like Jenks used to be. His heart stopping appearances always seems to make the last inning way to interesting. Could he be effectively used in some other role, other than closer?
r
I like the staff ace idea as well...make Danks & Floyd your second
and third guys with Richard/Poreda as the #5.The 4 spot would be
either Buehrle or Vasquez with one of those guys being traded to
free up some $$$ and to hopefully help land this ace we are looking
for.Danks & Floyd are already pitching better than the two vets now
and we know what we will get with Vasquez...Buehrle is not an ace
although he has had that label bestowed on him because most years
there hasn't been anybody better on the staff.If trading him in a pack-
age that might help us land this true ace (whoever he is) i say it's time
to do it.

DickAllen72
09-01-2008, 12:17 AM
The biggest missing piece for this team to be a contender for another World Championship is one more starter. We don't need another back of the rotation guy, but rather a Staff Ace.
Good point. The Sox don't really have an "Ace" on their staff--haven't had a true "Ace" since Contreras of second half '05-'06.

They currently have a staff of four good number three pitchers--maybe a couple of number two's--but no true Ace. If they could somehow fill that fifth opening with a CC Sabathia--wow.

chisoxfanatic
09-01-2008, 12:38 AM
They currently have a staff of four good number three pitchers--maybe a couple of number two's--but no true Ace. If they could somehow fill that fifth opening with a CC Sabathia--wow.
That's not gonna happen, unfortunately. Sabathia's stated countless times that he really enjoys hitting. If the Brewers don't bring him back next year, I'd expect teams like the Cardinals to look into signing him.

MISoxfan
09-01-2008, 01:05 AM
Phew. I thought I was the only one.

I'm fine with him in center too, depending on who we have at second. We need a leadoff hitter somewhere.

DSpivack
09-01-2008, 01:20 AM
That's not gonna happen, unfortunately. Sabathia's stated countless times that he really enjoys hitting. If the Brewers don't bring him back next year, I'd expect teams like the Cardinals to look into signing him.

Or the Yankee$$$.

chisoxfanatic
09-01-2008, 01:28 AM
Or the Yankee$$$.
The Cardinals REALLY need some reliable starting pitching. I think they are going to make a big splash in free agency, and I hope they're able to find hole fillers. I think that, if they can get one more starting pitcher, as well as a closer, they'll be set to contend next year.

It would be great for a Sox/Cards 2009 World Series.

DSpivack
09-01-2008, 01:42 AM
The Cardinals REALLY need some reliable starting pitching. I think they are going to make a big splash in free agency, and I hope they're able to find hole fillers. I think that, if they can get one more starting pitcher, as well as a closer, they'll be set to contend next year.

It would be great for a Sox/Cards 2009 World Series.

I don't disagree that the Cardinals need pitching, but so do the Yankees. They also have a ton of money coming off the books and are opening up a new park that will see their revenue increase even more. The Yankees might just give Sabathia an offer he can't refuse, that no other team could match.

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 01:43 AM
The Cardinals REALLY need some reliable starting pitching. I think they are going to make a big splash in free agency, and I hope they're able to find hole fillers. I think that, if they can get one more starting pitcher, as well as a closer, they'll be set to contend next year.

It would be great for a Sox/Cards 2009 World Series.


Cardinals were burned on/very frustrated with Mulder & Carpenter lately.

I doubt they'd be willing to shell out 100+ Mill for another high-mileage arm in Senor Needsabathia...... coming off a year when they missed the playoffs by double-digit games and have numerous holes to fill in rotation, bullpen & line-up (assuming that Miles, Shumacher, possibly even Ankiel fall back to earth).

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 02:00 AM
I don't disagree that the Cardinals need pitching, but so do the Yankees. They also have a ton of money coming off the books and are opening up a new park that will see their revenue increase even more. The Yankees might just give Sabathia an offer he can't refuse, that no other team could match.

Yankees would be a logical choice, except that for AL-embattled vets with weight issues like Sabathia, weaker NL line-ups are like crack.

In AL, CC is just another good-to-very good pitcher.
In NL, CC is a bonafied, motherlovin', Complete-Gamin'..... stah!

gobears1987
09-01-2008, 02:26 AM
Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration (what I said is more like Thome), but those two do lead the AL in home runs you know. Jermaine is going to strike out 100+ times this season and Carlos may strike out 90 times. Those guys aren't contact hitters. Whenever you hit for power like them, you sacrifice contact at times.
Carlos doesn't swing for power. His natural swing is just so good that a lot of those balls end up leaving the park.

DSpivack
09-01-2008, 02:27 AM
Yankees would be a logical choice, except that for AL-embattled vets with weight issues like Sabathia, weaker NL line-ups are like crack.

In AL, CC is just another good-to-very good pitcher.
In NL, CC is a bonafied, motherlovin', Complete-Gamin'..... stah!

Sure, if he gets an equal contract from an NL team, he'll probably stay in the senior circuit. But I don't see that happening.

Lillian
09-01-2008, 08:15 AM
That's not gonna happen, unfortunately. Sabathia's stated countless times that he really enjoys hitting. If the Brewers don't bring him back next year, I'd expect teams like the Cardinals to look into signing him.

Why does his desire to hit automatically preclude his signing with an A. L. team? Although it would be very unconventional, there is no rule that would prohibit him from hitting, simply bypassing the D.H.
Such a move would help his A.L. team in June, during the inter league games.
I suspect that money is the real obstacle to the Sox signing him.
Moreover, Sox management's policy regarding not giving pitchers long term contracts would be a major hurdle in such a signing, as he will want a lot of years.

Lillian
09-01-2008, 08:30 AM
There is a way we could acquire that future Ace. The Sox could acquire another young pitcher with potential, upon whom his team has given up. We already have 3 former first round draft picks, Danks, Floyd and Thornton. All of them were acquired without giving up anyone who has become an impact player, and without spending a lot of money. That seems to be the Sox M.O., and with Cooper's ability to "fix" guys, that might be our best hope. Admitedly, it's a little harder to find an Ace, than a number two or three, or a reliever, but stranger things have happened.
Maybe the Sox could trade someone with a little more value than Borchard, McCarthy, or Garcia, who were the players traded in the aforementioned deals. That might get them a real "diamond in the rough".

Lukin13
09-01-2008, 09:09 AM
There aren't too many "aces" pitching in the AL anymore.

Daisuke: Whom the Red Sox paid crazy money for before throwing a single MLB pitch.

Halladay: Mr. Consistency despite pitching in against the AL East for the past ten or so years. Even he has had some bumps in the road.

Lackey: Has been dominant but also hurt.

Kazmir: Not sure if you can call him an ace despite his recent dominance. He too was beat up coming into this year.

Verlander: If he was on the Sox, fans would still be calling for an "ace", so I guess he doesn't qualify.

King Felix: Dude is crazy good but also just plain crazy.

Not sure why we need an "ace" when there are really only four in the AL right this second and three of the four had injury concerns THIS SEASON?

Good pitchers who get on a hot streak or a luck streak become "aces". There are only a handfull of guys outside of Halladay that have been long term aces in the big leagues and they currently reside in the NL.

Craig Grebeck
09-01-2008, 09:19 AM
Looking to trade Jenks would be a very wise move, IMO.

Assuming he has any value left after his rapid decline in velocity and K rate.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-01-2008, 09:51 AM
Looking to trade Jenks would be a very wise move, IMO.

Assuming he has any value left after his rapid decline in velocity and K rate.

Jenks has plenty of value, especially to the Sox, regardless of his velocity. He gets people out. You don't have to have a high K rate to be a successful closer.

But I don't know of any rapid decline. Yes, he used to throw 99, but now he still gets it up there at 95, which is fast enough to be effective when he has other pitches.

Craig Grebeck
09-01-2008, 10:06 AM
Jenks has plenty of value, especially to the Sox, regardless of his velocity. He gets people out. You don't have to have a high K rate to be a successful closer.

But I don't know of any rapid decline. Yes, he used to throw 99, but now he still gets it up there at 95, which is fast enough to be effective when he has other pitches.
It is a whole lot more difficult to be successful when you don't get the fastball by anybody. He's been declining rapidly.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/8645_P_season_mini_1_20080831.png

Blue line represents league average.

turners56
09-01-2008, 11:16 AM
I don't feel like all our home runs are solo shots this year. That was 2007. I think the Sox have hit a lot of 2-run and 3-run homers this year.

They do need to improve with RISP and two outs. The situational hitting is not great. But I don't see us hitting a bunch of solo shots this year. There have been many, many game-changing, multi-run homers belted this year by the Sox.

We still hit more than half of our home runs as solo shots. 113 to be exact.

turners56
09-01-2008, 11:18 AM
There aren't too many "aces" pitching in the AL anymore.

Daisuke: Whom the Red Sox paid crazy money for before throwing a single MLB pitch.

Halladay: Mr. Consistency despite pitching in against the AL East for the past ten or so years. Even he has had some bumps in the road.

Lackey: Has been dominant but also hurt.

Kazmir: Not sure if you can call him an ace despite his recent dominance. He too was beat up coming into this year.

Verlander: If he was on the Sox, fans would still be calling for an "ace", so I guess he doesn't qualify.

King Felix: Dude is crazy good but also just plain crazy.

Not sure why we need an "ace" when there are really only four in the AL right this second and three of the four had injury concerns THIS SEASON?

Good pitchers who get on a hot streak or a luck streak become "aces". There are only a handfull of guys outside of Halladay that have been long term aces in the big leagues and they currently reside in the NL.

No Cliff Lee?

turners56
09-01-2008, 11:18 AM
Looking to trade Jenks would be a very wise move, IMO.

Assuming he has any value left after his rapid decline in velocity and K rate.

So who's gonna close then? You saw how much our bullpen sucked without him.

Brian26
09-01-2008, 11:24 AM
Looking to trade Jenks would be a very wise move, IMO.

Assuming he has any value left after his rapid decline in velocity and K rate.

The Sox are living on borrowed time with Jenks as it is. People forget he has a screw in his elbow. This doesn't necessarily answer the question of who would replace him, but he's the one guy the Sox should consider selling high on before he totally breaks down.

turners56
09-01-2008, 11:26 AM
The Sox are living on borrowed time with Jenks as it is. People forget he has a screw in his elbow. This doesn't necessarily answer the question of who would replace him, but he's the one guy the Sox should consider selling high on before he totally breaks down.

He has a screw in his elbow? What? When did this happen?

Zisk77
09-01-2008, 11:33 AM
That's not gonna happen, unfortunately. Sabathia's stated countless times that he really enjoys hitting. If the Brewers don't bring him back next year, I'd expect teams like the Cardinals to look into signing him.


No way the cardinals sign sabathia or anyone else to the kind of maoney he will command. The cards have something in common with the cubs... fans show up win or lose, but they are not a big market team and the new owneres are just as cheap as the old. I expect the Mets, Yanks, Bosox, Astros, and phils to go aftyer him...my money is the mets. Sabathia and Santana...yikes!

Domeshot17
09-01-2008, 11:48 AM
Looking to trade Jenks would be a very wise move, IMO.

Assuming he has any value left after his rapid decline in velocity and K rate.

This is why I hate stat heads. Jenks has a 1.64 ERA a 1.07 whip and 27 saves. If it wasn't for Krod closing every win and Rivera not blowing anything for most of this year (added with his Injury) Jenks would be getting a lot more coverage.

But the Stat Heads want velocity and K's, and would probably argue that Zumaya with his blazing heater near 4 era and almost 2 whip would be better. Heck, maybe we should move Matt Thornton to closer, he gets it up near 100, despite ****ting the bed almost every time he takes the hill in the 2nd half.

This is just complaining to complain. Awesome Thread. People mad because our 2b is faster than our 1b and DH (Find me 3 teams who win, who have speed out their middle of the order hitters at 1b and DH). People complain about the one consistently great pitcher we have. Yah, complain about our veteran number 1 pitching like a 4 lately in Burls. Complain about Vazquez pulling a Jeckyl and Hyde and routine out there on the bump. Complain that Danks looks gassed or that our bullpen is imploding any given night. Heck, even complain Ozzie runs out Griffey and Swish in the same OF and is too nostalgic to put Griffey in the corner and Swish in center. You can even be general and complain that we have blown a golden chance to put 3 to 4 games between us and the twins.

But to complain about Jenks? Are you kidding me?

southside rocks
09-01-2008, 12:01 PM
It is a whole lot more difficult to be successful when you don't get the fastball by anybody. He's been declining rapidly.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/8645_P_season_mini_1_20080831.png

Blue line represents league average.

Bobby Jenks is declining rapidly?

The guy is posting the lowest ERA of his career, by almost a full run, and he's "declining rapidly"? :?::scratch::rolleyes:

Okay, I know that this board is named White Sox Interactive, but I just changed the name of it in my bookmarks to Down The Rabbit Hole. Reality here is just ... very strange.

ETA: if you mean that his K rate is declining, that's obvious (and a pretty graphic that is, too). But he's become a pitcher, using his experience, his expanded arsenal of pitches, and his mind to get batters out, instead of relying on just gas. I think that's a great maturation.

cws05champ
09-01-2008, 12:02 PM
I don't think Jenks gets traded, because you would just be looking for someone to replace him. Now Jermaine Dye may have some very good value that could bring back a SP and/or RP. I beleive Paulie will come back and have a good typical year. With Dye gone Swisher can play right and we could get a speedy CF like Taveras and rotate in BA a couple times a week.

I would like to see them sign Mark Ellis of O-Dawg with Alexei moving to SS. If we can sign Crede on a 1-2 yr deal...great, then I trade Josh Fields and get value for him. Beckham will hopefully be ready by 2010 to take over 3B or 2B.

Taveras
Ellis
Quentin
Thome
Konerko
Alexei
AJ
Swisher
Crede or Fields

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:06 PM
Bobby Jenks is declining rapidly?

The guy is posting the lowest ERA of his career, by almost a full run, and he's "declining rapidly"? :?::scratch::rolleyes:

Okay, I know that this board is named White Sox Interactive, but I just changed the name of it in my bookmarks to Down The Rabbit Hole. Reality here is just ... very strange.

ETA: if you mean that his K rate is declining, that's obvious (and a pretty graphic that is, too). But he's become a pitcher, using his experience, his expanded arsenal of pitches, and his mind to get batters out, instead of relying on just gas. I think that's a great maturation.

Expecting him to strike 2 or 3 guys out for every save is unrealistic. Bobby's smart enough to know that he can't throw 100 for the rest of his career. He's had elbow problems before. Unlike Joel Zumaya, Bobby has become more of a pitcher. Yes, he's getting hit hard at times (like yesterday), but like you said, his ERA is way down from previous seasons. As a closer, ERA is very important, because your main goal is to pitch an inning and stop runs from scoring. Unlike middle relievers, there are no inherited runners on. Most of the runs allowed are the closer's responsibility.

Save McCuddy's
09-01-2008, 12:17 PM
Expecting him to strike 2 or 3 guys out for every save is unrealistic. Bobby's smart enough to know that he can't throw 100 for the rest of his career. He's had elbow problems before. Unlike Joel Zumaya, Bobby has become more of a pitcher. Yes, he's getting hit hard at times (like yesterday), but like you said, his ERA is way down from previous seasons. As a closer, ERA is very important, because your main goal is to pitch an inning and stop runs from scoring. Unlike middle relievers, there are no inherited runners on. Most of the runs allowed are the closer's responsibility.

Number 1: We're not expecting him to strike out two or three guys per save. 1 would be nice, and he is far short of 1 per inning at this point.

Number 2: ERA is not a very important measure of a closer. When you only pitch 50 or so innings and appear in 40 to 50 games, one bad outing can meaningfully impact your ERA. WHIP is a much better measure of whether a closer is pitching well.

Number 3: I love Bobby, but you're smoking something if you think that he's going to be able to consistently close as dominantly as in past seasons with the stuff he has had this year. His make-up is outstanding and he's still been successful, but the odds will run him down if he doesn't start missing bats again.

Lukin13
09-01-2008, 12:18 PM
No Cliff Lee?

Cliff Lee??? He was Cleveland's #5 coming into the season.

One season does not make ace. If that were the case we already have an ace and his name is Gavin.

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:24 PM
Cliff Lee??? He was Cleveland's #5 coming into the season.

One season does not make ace. If that were the case we already have an ace and his name is Gavin.

But he's 19-2 with a 2.43 ERA. 2.43 ERA! Let me ask you this then.

Is Edinson Volquez the ace of the Reds?
Is Tim Lincecum the ace of the Giants?

And this isn't Cliff Lee's first good season either. He had a couple of good years before he got injured last season.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2008, 12:28 PM
For what it's worth in the next WSI interview, (PHG got it yesterday) the subject and I talk about next year's team. It's going to be a busy off season apparently... what with all the free agents leaving, guys in contract / option situations and apparently (something I didn't know) the Sox want to move Dye to DH next year (which means they may move Swisher to right).

From everything I'm hearing and this is also discussed in the interview, two names to keep a very close eye on...Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson as the new 3rd and 2nd basemen respectively in 2009.

Lip

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:32 PM
Number 1: We're not expecting him to strike out two or three guys per save. 1 would be nice, and he is far short of 1 per inning at this point.

Number 2: ERA is not a very important measure of a closer. When you only pitch 50 or so innings and appear in 40 to 50 games, one bad outing can meaningfully impact your ERA. WHIP is a much better measure of whether a closer is pitching well.

Number 3: I love Bobby, but you're smoking something if you think that he's going to be able to consistently close as dominantly as in past seasons with the stuff he has had this year. His make-up is outstanding and he's still been successful, but the odds will run him down if he doesn't start missing bats again.

1. It's been a steady decline, but as it has declined, the ERA and WHIP have gone down substantially. So can we conclude that the less Bobby tries to strike out guys, the more successful he really is?

2. Once again, his WHIP has decreased since 2006, where he struck out more than one batter per inning. In addition, isn't preventing runs the pitcher's most important job? Even with Bobby's one or two bad outings this year in non-save situations, his ERA is still extremely respectable.

3. So you're telling me that we should trade him for another need when we don't have a closer waiting in the wings? :scratch:

It's a big gamble. Yes, he can break down. He did have an injury this season, but it wasn't even something that had to do with what most of you are worried about - his elbow. Unless Kenny decides to pay a closer an extreme amount of money this off-season, trading Bobby will be a really bad idea.

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:34 PM
For what it's worth in the next WSI interview, (PHG got it yesterday) the subject and I talk about next year's team. It's going to be a busy off season apparently... what with all the free agents leaving, guys in contract / option situations and apparently (something I didn't know) the Sox want to move Dye to DH next year (which means they may move Swisher to right).

From everything I'm hearing and this is also discussed in the interview, two names to keep a very close eye on...Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson as the new 3rd and 2nd basemen respectively in 2009.

Lip

That's a lot of sacrifice in power. But for what it's worth, that might be what this team really needs.

Lillian
09-01-2008, 12:36 PM
Let's not completely discount the possibility of trading for Halladay.
The Blue Jays owe him $14.25M next year, and 15.75M for 2010.
Toronto may be looking for some salary relief. Sox management probably wouldn't mind the money, as long as the term is not too long. Two years just mind be about right for the Sox.
What would Toronto need to get back in a trade with the Sox? I hope Quentin is a nonstarter, but beyond that, I wouldn't mind anyone else being considered.

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Let's not completely discount the possibility of trading for Halladay.
The Blue Jays owe him $14.25M next year, and 15.75M for 2010.
Toronto may be looking for some salary relief. Sox management probably wouldn't mind the money, as long as the term is not too long. Two years just mind be about right for the Sox.
What would Toronto need to get back in a trade with the Sox? I hope Quentin is a nonstarter, but beyond that, I wouldn't mind anyone else being considered.

At this point, you're going to have to part with either Danks or Floyd to get a guy like Halladay. I don't know if that's really worth it, considering Halladay is 31.

Paulwny
09-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Let's not completely discount the possibility of trading for Halladay.
The Blue Jays owe him $14.25M next year, and 15.75M for 2010.
Toronto may be looking for some salary relief. Sox management probably wouldn't mind the money, as long as the term is not too long. Two years just mind be about right for the Sox.
What would Toronto need to get back in a trade with the Sox? I hope Quentin is a nonstarter, but beyond that, I wouldn't mind anyone else being considered.


Toronto is interesting, Jays' players are paid in US dollars. Since the Loonie has gone up in value vs the US dollar the Jays' payroll may have decreased.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Turner:

Ozzie wants to change things, Kenny has always tried to give him what he's wanted in the past, it just hasn't worked out exactly the way both wanted.

Kenny apparently is going to try again.

Lip

delben91
09-01-2008, 12:45 PM
It is a whole lot more difficult to be successful when you don't get the fastball by anybody. He's been declining rapidly.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/8645_P_season_mini_1_20080831.png

Blue line represents league average.


I love graphs.

At this rate, Bobby will have negative K/9 by 2011. I'll bet he'll be the first guy in history to give back outs via negative strikeouts, that'll be huge in terms of ticket sales!!

Where's homefish's old graph about how AJ would have a negative batting average by 2009??

While we're selling high, let's deal Quentin, Danks, Floyd, and Ramirez!!! :bandance:

turners56
09-01-2008, 12:50 PM
Turner:

Ozzie wants to change things, Kenny has always tried to give him what he's wanted in the past, it just hasn't worked out exactly the way both wanted.

Kenny apparently is going to try again.

Lip

I'm sure Ozzie will like players like Hudson and Figgins. It gives him a lot of versatility when it comes to managing. Right now, he really can't do much of anything with the team he has.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-01-2008, 01:47 PM
It would be great to add some speed to the lineup. If what Lip says is true, that they would like to make Dye the DH, that means Thome would not be around. Since his contract will most likely vest, that means they would have to find someone to take his $13 million contract. That may not be easy.

turners56
09-01-2008, 01:50 PM
It would be great to add some speed to the lineup. If what Lip says is true, that they would like to make Dye the DH, that means Thome would not be around. Since his contract will most likely vest, that means they would have to find someone to take his $13 million contract. That may not be easy.

He has a $3 million buyout.

DSpivack
09-01-2008, 01:58 PM
He has a $3 million buyout.

As he said, the option is likely to vest; the option next year is likely/about to be guaranteed.

Frater Perdurabo
09-01-2008, 02:05 PM
For what it's worth in the next WSI interview, (PHG got it yesterday) the subject and I talk about next year's team. It's going to be a busy off season apparently... what with all the free agents leaving, guys in contract / option situations and apparently (something I didn't know) the Sox want to move Dye to DH next year (which means they may move Swisher to right).

From everything I'm hearing and this is also discussed in the interview, two names to keep a very close eye on...Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson as the new 3rd and 2nd basemen respectively in 2009.

Lip

I'm really looking forward to the interview, Lip!

If they really want to move Dye to DH, they have to find a way to get rid of Thome. That means they need to "conspire" to limit plate appearances, or they need to find someone to take him in trade. The problem with a "conspiracy to limit Thome's plate appearances" theory is that he's significantly out-hitting Griffey, and perhaps more importantly a pretty crappy thing to do to such a good soldier and great guy like Thome. That aside, I like this lineup because it gives the Sox two speedy, high OBP hitters at the top of the order:

Figgins 3B (.290/.360, 35 SBs)
Hudson 2B (.280/.350, 10 SBs)
Quentin LF (just do 2008 all over again!)
Dye DH (Dye can get some RF starts to rest others @ DH)
Paulie 1B (look for rebound year from the only truly slow guy in this lineup)
Swisher RF (focus on power, Swish)
Alexei SS (.300+, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 20 SBs with working on technique)
AJ C (easier to swap backup C in 8-hole; AJ could get RBIs hitting 8th)
BA CF (.250, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 15 SBs)

The one problem is the lack of a true left-handed power threat. We would be counting on Swisher (switch hitter with better numbers batting lefty this year) to elevate his power numbers. Right now he has 22 homers and 18 doubles. I'd like to see 30/30 out of him if he's batting 6th.\

Find another starting pitcher and a veteran closer to be the 8th inning guy, and we're set!

turners56
09-01-2008, 02:10 PM
I'm really looking forward to the interview, Lip!

If they really want to move Dye to DH, they have to find a way to get rid of Thome. That means they need to "conspire" to limit plate appearances, or they need to find someone to take him in trade. The problem with a "conspiracy to limit Thome's plate appearances" theory is that he's significantly out-hitting Griffey, and perhaps more importantly a pretty crappy thing to do to such a good soldier and great guy like Thome. That aside, I like this lineup because it gives the Sox two speedy, high OBP hitters at the top of the order:

Figgins 3B (.290/.360, 35 SBs)
Hudson 2B (.280/.350, 10 SBs)
Quentin LF (just do 2008 all over again!)
Dye DH (Dye can get some RF starts to rest others @ DH)
Paulie 1B (look for rebound year from the only truly slow guy in this lineup)
Swisher RF (focus on power, Swish)
Alexei SS (.300+, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 20 SBs with working on technique)
AJ C (easier to swap backup C in 8-hole; AJ could get RBIs hitting 8th)
BA CF (.250, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 15 SBs)

The one problem is the lack of a true left-handed power threat. We would be counting on Swisher (switch hitter with better numbers batting lefty this year) to elevate his power numbers. Right now he has 22 homers and 18 doubles. I'd like to see 30/30 out of him if he's batting 6th.\

Find another starting pitcher and a veteran closer to be the 8th inning guy, and we're set!

That's like the ideal off-season.

IMO, we had an ideal off-season in 2005. When the whole thing started I basically said, get a 5th starter and a better catcher. I really wasn't asking for Scott Podsednik, but I wasn't unhappy with the deal. We got El Duque and A.J. for the improvements I was asking for, they both worked out really well. This off-season, I'm asking for something similar: get a fifth starter and upgrade at either center, 2B, or SS for a good contact hitter with speed. We could end up with Hudson if the D-backs don't re-sign him. Figgins is just icing on the cake, I'd be fine with Crede for another year as long as his back holds up.

alohafri
09-01-2008, 02:10 PM
I'm not sure why Swisher and his .227 average continue to get a free pass by most people here. He's batting .246 on his career now.

Because he is a grinder.

voodoochile
09-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Turner:

Ozzie wants to change things, Kenny has always tried to give him what he's wanted in the past, it just hasn't worked out exactly the way both wanted.

Kenny apparently is going to try again.

Lip

What about Thome? In 67 PA, his contract becomes guaranteed next season. Are the Sox planning on benching him for half the remaining games?

35th and Shields
09-01-2008, 02:28 PM
Figgins 3B (.290/.360, 35 SBs)
Hudson 2B (.280/.350, 10 SBs)
Quentin LF (just do 2008 all over again!)
Dye DH (Dye can get some RF starts to rest others @ DH)
Paulie 1B (look for rebound year from the only truly slow guy in this lineup)
Swisher RF (focus on power, Swish)
Alexei SS (.300+, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 20 SBs with working on technique)
AJ C (easier to swap backup C in 8-hole; AJ could get RBIs hitting 8th)
BA CF (.250, 35 2Bs, 20 HRs, 15 SBs)

The one problem is the lack of a true left-handed power threat. We would be counting on Swisher (switch hitter with better numbers batting lefty this year) to elevate his power numbers. Right now he has 22 homers and 18 doubles. I'd like to see 30/30 out of him if he's batting 6th.\

Find another starting pitcher and a veteran closer to be the 8th inning guy, and we're set!

Wow. I wouldn't even worry about a big LH bat if this was our lineup. When people talk about having a balanced lineup this is almost a textbook example.

turners56
09-01-2008, 02:30 PM
^
I can only wish that BA can hit .250 though...

Brian's developed some good power this season, but can anybody teach him how to hit an off-speed pitch?

Lip Man 1
09-01-2008, 02:48 PM
Voodoo:

I don't think they'd treat Thome that way. I'm just passing along what the subject told me, the Sox would like to have Dye at DH next season. That doesn't mean it would happen though. Perhaps they'd like Jim at a reduced role, part time DH, pinch hitter and so forth. Perhaps they would find a way to trade him.

Lip

Brian26
09-01-2008, 02:57 PM
ETA: if you mean that his K rate is declining, that's obvious (and a pretty graphic that is, too). But he's become a pitcher, using his experience, his expanded arsenal of pitches, and his mind to get batters out, instead of relying on just gas. I think that's a great maturation.

Don't underestimate the importance of the strikeout stat.

A closer's ability to strike batters out is far more important than a starting pitcher's. If a closer is striking out batters, that means they're not putting the ball in play, which is much more critical in late-inning situations when a closer may come into the game with men in scoring position.

A starter may actually be more effective with a lower strikeout rate because he's throwing less pitches and consequently has a chance to go deeper in the game (think Jon Garland '05 or '06).

A Bobby Jenks that comes in nibbling at the plate, going deep in counts and letting guys get on base is not going to be very effective very long, especially when he's coming in with men already in RISP, which wasn't the case yesterday luckily (and this is coming from someone who likes Jenks a ton and wishes him nothing but success).

Brian26
09-01-2008, 03:01 PM
What about Thome? In 67 PA, his contract becomes guaranteed next season. Are the Sox planning on benching him for half the remaining games?

26 games left...this potenitally could end up being closer than we think. If he gets one out of every three days off, he'd be in line to play 17 games. With four PA's on average per game, that's 68 PA's.

Paulwny
09-01-2008, 03:07 PM
Don't underestimate the importance of the strikeout stat.

A closer's ability to strike batters out is far more important than a starting pitcher's. If a closer is striking out batters, that means they're not putting the ball in play, which is much more critical in late-inning situations when a closer may come into the game with men in scoring position.

A starter may actually be more effective with a lower strikeout rate because he's throwing less pitches and consequently has a chance to go deeper in the game (think Jon Garland '05 or '06).

A Bobby Jenks that comes in nibbling at the plate, going deep in counts and letting guys get on base is not going to be very effective very long, especially when he's coming in with men already in RISP, which wasn't the case yesterday luckily (and this is coming from someone who likes Jenks a ton and wishes him nothing but success).


This was true during the Gossage era now, 99% of the time the closer comes in to finish the last inning. Strike outs are more important for the relievers who come in the 6-8 innings quite often with men on base.

turners56
09-01-2008, 03:33 PM
This was true during the Gossage era now, 99% of the time the closer comes in to finish the last inning. Strike outs are more important for the relievers who come in the 6-8 innings quite often with men on base.

Jenks usually comes in with nobody on base.

Paulwny
09-01-2008, 03:38 PM
Jenks usually comes in with nobody on base.


That's what I was saying.

turners56
09-01-2008, 04:06 PM
That's what I was saying.

I should of read the quote you were referring to. :redface:

voodoochile
09-01-2008, 04:17 PM
Voodoo:

I don't think they'd treat Thome that way. I'm just passing along what the subject told me, the Sox would like to have Dye at DH next season. That doesn't mean it would happen though. Perhaps they'd like Jim at a reduced role, part time DH, pinch hitter and so forth. Perhaps they would find a way to trade him.

Lip

Maybe they can find a taker if they eat half the money they owe him and Philly still throws in the money they are supposed to. If not, I think the OF remains much like this year and they concentrate on filling 3B for starters. Then it will depend on available money. Love to see those two players wearing the silver and black with Ramirez moving to SS full time, but it leaves a big hole in the pitching staff to be filled too. Of course maybe Richard proves he is ready over the final month and post season this year and the Sox go into next year not needing a 5th starter.

I could actually see the Sox signing Griffey to a 2-3 year deal around $15M total and if Dye is back in RF next year, it won't be the worst thing that's ever happened...

KyWhiSoxFan
09-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Don't underestimate the importance of the strikeout stat.

A closer's ability to strike batters out is far more important than a starting pitcher's. If a closer is striking out batters, that means they're not putting the ball in play, which is much more critical in late-inning situations when a closer may come into the game with men in scoring position.

A starter may actually be more effective with a lower strikeout rate because he's throwing less pitches and consequently has a chance to go deeper in the game (think Jon Garland '05 or '06).

A Bobby Jenks that comes in nibbling at the plate, going deep in counts and letting guys get on base is not going to be very effective very long, especially when he's coming in with men already in RISP, which wasn't the case yesterday luckily (and this is coming from someone who likes Jenks a ton and wishes him nothing but success).

I don't see Jenks nibbling at the plate at all. He has had some very quick innings this year because he has let them hit his pitch. Aside from yesterday, he has been very efficient. Yesterday, he just did not have much command of his pitches. Maybe he was rusty or just was having a bad day.

Zisk77
09-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Expecting him to strike 2 or 3 guys out for every save is unrealistic. Bobby's smart enough to know that he can't throw 100 for the rest of his career. He's had elbow problems before. Unlike Joel Zumaya, Bobby has become more of a pitcher. Yes, he's getting hit hard at times (like yesterday), but like you said, his ERA is way down from previous seasons. As a closer, ERA is very important, because your main goal is to pitch an inning and stop runs from scoring. Unlike middle relievers, there are no inherited runners on. Most of the runs allowed are the closer's responsibility.


He wasn't hit hard yesterday he walke 2 and gave up a seeing eye single to create the angst.

Bobby is a much better pitcher now than in 05....he threw 100 in o5 and was just beginning to cut his fastball and he had the hammer.

Now Bobby has mastered the cutter and even developed a sinker. He also has a nice slider and change-up. He still employs a mid 90's fb and with much better control. He gets a lot of 1 or 2 pitch outs instead of 7 pitch at bats.

UofCSoxFan
09-01-2008, 04:56 PM
Maybe they can find a taker if they eat half the money they owe him and Philly still throws in the money they are supposed to. If not, I think the OF remains much like this year and they concentrate on filling 3B for starters. Then it will depend on available money. Love to see those two players wearing the silver and black with Ramirez moving to SS full time, but it leaves a big hole in the pitching staff to be filled too. Of course maybe Richard proves he is ready over the final month and post season this year and the Sox go into next year not needing a 5th starter.

I could actually see the Sox signing Griffey to a 2-3 year deal around $15M total and if Dye is back in RF next year, it won't be the worst thing that's ever happened...

I much rather have Thome next year than Griffey. It's not even close for me.

I agree that there's a good chance our current OF will be similar to this years. Thome will be back most likely (barring trade) which means Dye cannot DH and will be in RF next year. The fact that we likely won't be able to trade Konerko means that Swisher will have to be in CF to get playing time.

If that were the case, I think Chone Figgens who cna leadoff and play third, would be my number 1 target. Bottom line, if we don't change our OF, we need to find a legit leadoff hitter at 3B, 2B or SS.

And I agree with Frater about backup catcher. Toby Hall can hit, but a backup catcher needs to be good defensively...any offensive production is a luxury.

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 04:58 PM
For what it's worth in the next WSI interview, (PHG got it yesterday) the subject and I talk about next year's team. It's going to be a busy off season apparently... what with all the free agents leaving, guys in contract / option situations and apparently (something I didn't know) the Sox want to move Dye to DH next year (which means they may move Swisher to right).

From everything I'm hearing and this is also discussed in the interview, two names to keep a very close eye on...Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson as the new 3rd and 2nd basemen respectively in 2009.

Lip

Dye as a DH? Thome relegated to bat-boy duties, then? Someone please tell Jentle Jim his quest for 600 HR has hit a bit of a snag.

Between Figgins & Hudson, admittedly 2 of KW's favorite targets for years, that could be looking at 15 mill right there. Off-set by departures of Cabrera, Ozuna & Crede basically.

So do we know for sure how much, if any, of Thome's 13 M option will be picked up by the Phillies?

I actually thought D-Backs are paying for Vazquez, forgot he signed an extension. So that 11.5 Mill for 2009 on the books, not sure if any escalators.

Dye gets a 2 Mill bump next year.

Contreras - doubtlessly unensured; stays at 10 Mil. Buerhle stays at 14, Konerko - at 12.

AJ - 400 K up (although he can earn more in bonuses toward 2010.)

Dotel 1 Mill increase; minimal bonus possibe.

Linebrink 500 K up.

Swisher - 1.8 Mill up.

McDougal - 700 K up

Hall - 500 K up (or 150 K buy-out)

Alexei - 150 K up

Thornton - 450 K up

Quentin, Danks not due anything substantial, obviously.

Now, Jenks & Floyd. Are they arbit. eligible yet? I hope not.

Decision on Uribe, Carasco, Ramirez needs to be made. Decision is probably already been made on Griffey, though (Sox didn't really pay anything for him in '08 to have payroll implications).

Finally, do Sox have other obligations to ex-Sox players that extend to 2009?

Lip Man 1
09-01-2008, 05:00 PM
Voodoo:

I think the Sox would like Griffey back next season at a GREATLY reduced rate. I don't think they'd be willing to offer three years to a 38 year old. (I think he's 38)

Also for what it's worth Mark Gonzales in his mailbag said that team speed would be address this off season (another hint towards Figgins and Hudson) and that the Sox might bring in an experienced 5th starter to fight Poreda, Broadway and Richard.

Adele:

From what I've been told Contreras probably does have an insurance policy on him by the Sox. However for that to kick in he'd have to miss the entire 2009 season (which is very possible)

Lip

credefan19
09-01-2008, 05:07 PM
this is not the time to panic. the only person i want gone is cabrera. i don't care what we get, but then our line-up would look fine.

P- Danks/Jenks/Contrers/Vazquez
C- Pierzynski
1B- Konerko
2B- Ramirez
3B- Crede
SS- Uribe
LF- Quentin
CF- Swisher
RF- Dye
DH- Thome

turners56
09-01-2008, 05:07 PM
He wasn't hit hard yesterday he walke 2 and gave up a seeing eye single to create the angst.

Bobby is a much better pitcher now than in 05....he threw 100 in o5 and was just beginning to cut his fastball and he had the hammer.

Now Bobby has mastered the cutter and even developed a sinker. He also has a nice slider and change-up. He still employs a mid 90's fb and with much better control. He gets a lot of 1 or 2 pitch outs instead of 7 pitch at bats.

I guess you can say that, but the ball Pedoria hit was sort of a line-drive. I guess I was thinking more of Dotel and the out Kotsay made.

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 05:12 PM
Voodoo:

the Sox might bring in an experienced 5th starter to fight Poreda, Broadway and Richard.



Lip

Experienced like Shawn Estes? Or experienced like Paul Byrd? Different price tags.




Adele:

From what I've been told Contreras probably does have an insurance policy on him by the Sox. However for that to kick in he'd have to miss the entire 2009 season (which is very possible)


Oh good.

But does it mean that should Conteras make just a few ill-advised starts, insurence is null and void? Could get ugly if Sox try to intentionally hold him down, so to speak - worse than even Twins vs. Liriano vs. Supreme Court Justice Scalig.

Obviously the best-case scenario is if Contreras comes back healthy & rested and helps the team repeat as WS champs.:cool:

Lillian
09-01-2008, 05:23 PM
Toronto is interesting, Jays' players are paid in US dollars. Since the Loonie has gone up in value vs the US dollar the Jays' payroll may have decreased.

Great point. I forgot about that.

Save McCuddy's
09-01-2008, 06:54 PM
1. It's been a steady decline, but as it has declined, the ERA and WHIP have gone down substantially. So can we conclude that the less Bobby tries to strike out guys, the more successful he really is?

2. Once again, his WHIP has decreased since 2006, where he struck out more than one batter per inning. In addition, isn't preventing runs the pitcher's most important job? Even with Bobby's one or two bad outings this year in non-save situations, his ERA is still extremely respectable.

3. So you're telling me that we should trade him for another need when we don't have a closer waiting in the wings? :scratch:

It's a big gamble. Yes, he can break down. He did have an injury this season, but it wasn't even something that had to do with what most of you are worried about - his elbow. Unless Kenny decides to pay a closer an extreme amount of money this off-season, trading Bobby will be a really bad idea.

No, I'm not advocating trading Bobby Jenks. I remain confident in his ability to save games at least for the next 2 months. I am advocating preparedness for his potential decline and/or breakdown. As early as next year, I'd have someone in mind to turn to should we be in that situation.

Brian26
09-01-2008, 08:45 PM
He has a screw in his elbow? What? When did this happen?

My point exactly. Screw was pre-Sox of course...when he was still in the Angels organization.

turners56
09-01-2008, 08:47 PM
My point exactly. Screw was pre-Sox of course...when he was still in the Angels organization.

I find that extremely disturbing. The thought of a screw in the elbow just makes my stomach kind of sink.

Adele_H
09-01-2008, 08:55 PM
My point exactly. Screw was pre-Sox of course...when he was still in the Angels organization.

Jenks's elbow screw was possibly a blessing in disguise. If it weren't for his injury problem(s) & a tendency of bitch-slapping fools/poseurs while intoxicated.... Angels probably wouldn't have given up on him in the first place.

Yes, I liked Jenks when he could throw 100+ MPH, with an unhittable curveball, as much as anybody.

But I don't understand why people are bitching about a two-time All-Star with a World Series ring, under age 28, making under 500 K, with a mid-1.00 ERA & 90% save conversion rate, to go along with a 3-0 record.

There are literally a dozen other Sox-related issues that are more pressing than 'Bobby Jenks'.

Adele_H
09-02-2008, 02:02 PM
P- Danks/Jenks/Contrers/Vazquez
C- Pierzynski
1B- Konerko
2B- Ramirez
3B- Crede
SS- Uribe
LF- Quentin
CF- Swisher
RF- Dye
DH- Thome

3B Figgins
2B Hudson
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thomer
SS Alexei
1B Swisher
C AJP
CF Anderson

Maybe.

voodoochile
09-02-2008, 02:17 PM
3B Figgins
2B Hudson
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thomer
SS Alexei
1B Swisher
C AJP
CF Anderson

Maybe.

Where's Paulie?

If that's the lineup, then figure Paulie at 1B and Swish back in CF.

Adele_H
09-02-2008, 02:27 PM
Where's Paulie?

.

Hopefully traded - having waived a no-trade and having rebuilt some of the trade value with a good finish to 2008. That's a lot of $$$ freed up there, VC.

Swisher cannot play CF. He can play 1B, however.

sox1970
09-02-2008, 02:33 PM
Where's Paulie?

If that's the lineup, then figure Paulie at 1B and Swish back in CF.

If the Angels can't sign Teixeira, I hope all parties involved can work a deal for Konerko to go to Anaheim. I think Paulie would approve a deal there--closer to home, still training in Arizona, and a winning team.

Swisher needs to be at first next year if Thome and Dye remain--which it appears they will.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Also: what you have to realize is that a lot of what will happen NEXT year will largely depend on what happens THIS year. If Sox reach World Series, KW will have an extended budget to get his dream players in 2009. But if Sox fold in September like they did in 2003, budget gets slashed and K-Dub is forced to troll the bargain bins again - not that he isn't good at, mind you - while the organization goes through a quasi rebuilding phase.


Wow, who could those dream players be? Let's see, Bonds and Sosa are both older sluggers, and neither one currently has a contract for next year. Sheffield is tired of playing for the Tigers, and he's too old to play in the outfield so he must be on Kenny's list. Carlos Delgado is old and slow. What about Jason Giambi? Isn't he a free agent this year?

Of the moves that Kenny has made this year, only two have paid off (trading for Quentin and signing Alexei). Three have been downright poor or questionable (Griffey, Swisher, Cabrera). The bullpen deals have been OK, but Linebrink is hurt and Dotel hasn't been as good as expected. Basically, K-Dub's bargain bin shopping is the shotgun method: pick up a bunch of crap cheap, and when something works, say "See, I told you. You should believe in me." When it doesn't work, say "Well you can't get a miracle every time."

Adele_H
09-02-2008, 03:07 PM
Wow, who could those dream players be? Let's see, Bonds and Sosa are both older sluggers, and neither one currently has a contract for next year. Sheffield is tired of playing for the Tigers, and he's too old to play in the outfield so he must be on Kenny's list. Carlos Delgado is old and slow. What about Jason Giambi? Isn't he a free agent this year?


Are you accusing K-Dub of pining after dope fiends?

Three have been downright poor or questionable (Griffey, Swisher, Cabrera).

Cabrera trade wasn't as bad as people think. Garland is having a mediocre season in more pitching friendly park; Sox saved around 4 Mill that was used to shore up the awful 2007 bullpen. Garland's departure opened door for Floyd/Danks

Griffey trade was insurence against injury, and may have also lit some fire under Konerko who's been producing lately. Griffey cost Sox very little, has been getting on base even when he can't hit, and may just get comfortable and get on a hot streak before the season isn't over. We'll see.

I agree Swisher was not a great trade because DLS, Gio and Sweeney could have been a part of a blockbuster deal if, say, packaged with Jon Garland...


Basically, K-Dub's bargain bin shopping is the shotgun method: pick up a bunch of crap cheap, and when something works, say "See, I told you. You should believe in me." When it doesn't work, say "Well you can't get a miracle every time


Meh.

areilly does it better, with poetry and panache.

Lillian
09-05-2008, 10:27 AM
Although the Swisher deal looked OK at the time, it looks less attractive every day.
The first thing that made it less appealing was when the Sox failed to trade Konerko, which meant that Swisher would be in Center.
The second negative development was his poorer than anticipated offensive production.
The third factor here is his contract. $3.5M this year, and $5.3M next season, is fine, but he will make $6.75 in 2010, and $9M in 2011.
He is not worth that kind of money.
Many think that his upbeat personality is a big positive intangible. If it really helps his teammates then great. Who knows what the clubhouse really thinks about his antics. For me personally, I'd rather see the dugout celebrations toned down to reflect that the players know they can hit for power, and expect to hit home runs, rather than treating every homer like it's the game winner in the final game of the World Series.
If they could get reasonable value back, how would you feel about trading him? Either that, or trade Konerko, which was my original thought.
As long as the Sox don't put him in Center, at his salary, is he a good enough hitter to use at First?

jabrch
09-05-2008, 10:45 AM
As long as the Sox don't put him in Center, at his salary, is he a good enough hitter to use at First?

Not when we have Brad Eldred waiting to save the day.

voodoochile
09-05-2008, 10:47 AM
Although the Swisher deal looked OK at the time, it looks less attractive every day.
The first thing that made it less appealing was when the Sox failed to trade Konerko, which meant that Swisher would be in Center.
The second negative development was his poorer than anticipated offensive production.
The third factor here is his contract. $3.5M this year, and $5.3M next season, is fine, but he will make $6.75 in 2010, and $9M in 2011.
He is not worth that kind of money.
Many think that his upbeat personality is a big positive intangible. If it really helps his teammates then great. Who knows what the clubhouse really thinks about his antics. For me personally, I'd rather see the dugout celebrations toned down to reflect that the players know they can hit for power, and expect to hit home runs, rather than treating every homer like it's the game winner in the final game of the World Series.
If they could get reasonable value back, how would you feel about trading him? Either that, or trade Konerko, which was my original thought.
As long as the Sox don't put him in Center, at his salary, is he a good enough hitter to use at First?

Considering this is the worst full season he has had in the majors, I find your statements to be questionable at best. You have no idea how he will be hitting in 2011 at the age of 31. He's just entering his prime baseball years 27-32. At the least he might end up taking over for Dye in RF or if TCQ goes there, then LF.

Certainly nothing that got traded for him appears to be that amazing. Sweeney hits for nice average, but that's it. He's got 20 XBH in 317 AB this season. He also has a lower OBP than Swish even though his BA is currently 60 points higher.

And Swish still offers flexibility and a known commodity in the OF who is capable of playing all positions.

I know... I know... but he's blocking the immortal BA...:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh and the dugout/clubhouse seems to love it. Even the normally quiet and stoic Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko and Jim Thome have been seen laughing and having fun. Dye in particular seems to enjoy getting on Dotel's case when he starts throwing intentional balls when the situation calls for strikes. Compared to the quiet and stodgy dugouts of past years, it's obvious this team is loose and ready for anything. How can that be a bad thing?

guillensdisciple
09-05-2008, 11:20 AM
There are a few minor improvements needed for the Sox to be a championship team for the next few years.
We are old, we have to become younger. The Sox should either have some good prospects in AAA pf begin looking ahead for a good DH, right fielder, and first basemen. Granted it might take a couple of years for those guys to flat out but the Sox shouldn't take chances and consider scouting right away.
What I love though is the Sox massive talent- Alexei, Carlos, Danks, Gavin, Jenks---all the younger guys that are franchise players for the sox, basically danks and floyd will be the Sox one two punch for years to come and Ramirez and Quentin will be the franchise hitters that all the power teams have.

I would like to see a new center fielder and the release of Jim Thome, the guy is one of the nicest people in the world, but unfortunately the sox need some form of speed in center. Maybe a free agent, considering brian anderson.... all I know is the sox need to have more then just power. they need some in the gap hitting as well.

Lillian
09-05-2008, 11:30 AM
Not when we have Brad Eldred waiting to save the day.

Enough with the Eldred jokes, please. :wink: Give it up already!

kitekrazy
09-05-2008, 11:35 AM
I know... I know... but he's blocking the immortal BA...:rolleyes:



That one made my day. :D:

Lillian
09-05-2008, 12:09 PM
The problem with Swisher is that he isn't a good enough hitter to play First, and he isn't a good enough outfielder to play Center.
If they can find a spot for him as a corner outfielder, preferably Left, then he might be OK. However, unless Quentin moves to right, and Dye to DH, I don't see how that happens.

2906
09-05-2008, 12:27 PM
The problem with Swisher is that he isn't a good enough hitter to play First, and he isn't a good enough outfielder to play Center.
If they can find a spot for him as a corner outfielder, preferably Left, then he might be OK. However, unless Quentin moves to right, and Dye to DH, I don't see how that happens.

Lots of things can happen, and usually do. Every winter there's a trade out of the blue that changes the team's complexion. Williams tends to go after players he and his staff like and even if they have a down year he tends to believe in their talent.

There's lot more to the analysis than looking position by position. The broader picture is what skills does a guy bring to the team, how does it fit into the overall picture. Very rarely does a team have 12,13,14 position players who all have high batting average, hit for power, high on base %, can run the bases, oh and are defensive wizards too.

If examining the trends and reading between the lines means anything, we will see Williams continue to add high on base guys. They also need more speed and have admitted as such. That's why we hear names like Figgins and Hudson. The OBP issue is why Swisher and Quentin were acquired.

Williams also knows guys will have up years and down years. That's why there needs to be a blend of these skills on the team. Is the blend perfect? Probably not, which is why you will see more OBP and speed injected into the 2009 team.

Bottom line, I highly doubt they will sell low on Swisher.

voodoochile
09-05-2008, 12:31 PM
There are a few minor improvements needed for the Sox to be a championship team for the next few years.
We are old, we have to become younger. The Sox should either have some good prospects in AAA pf begin looking ahead for a good DH, right fielder, and first basemen. Granted it might take a couple of years for those guys to flat out but the Sox shouldn't take chances and consider scouting right away.
What I love though is the Sox massive talent- Alexei, Carlos, Danks, Gavin, Jenks---all the younger guys that are franchise players for the sox, basically danks and floyd will be the Sox one two punch for years to come and Ramirez and Quentin will be the franchise hitters that all the power teams have.

I would like to see a new center fielder and the release of Jim Thome, the guy is one of the nicest people in the world, but unfortunately the sox need some form of speed in center. Maybe a free agent, considering brian anderson.... all I know is the sox need to have more then just power. they need some in the gap hitting as well.


Thome's contract will become guaranteed next year after about another 60 PA. The Sox aren't going to eat that money and he's certainly worth the $7.5M or whatever they'll have to pay him.

whitesox901
09-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Id like to see some more youth, an infield of Swisher, Getz, Ramirez and Fields and an outfield of Quenton in left , TBD in center and Dye in right

cws05champ
09-05-2008, 01:29 PM
The problem with Swisher is that he isn't a good enough hitter to play First, and he isn't a good enough outfielder to play Center.
If they can find a spot for him as a corner outfielder, preferably Left, then he might be OK. However, unless Quentin moves to right, and Dye to DH, I don't see how that happens.
Yes, Swisher would be more ideal for a corner outfielder defensively. However, why is he not considered a good enough hitter for 1B? He is having a bad season (his worst) at the plate, but is still hitting for power. He has a better Slg % and OBP than Konerko (which is not saying much). If you have other good enough hitters around him in the lineup so what if he is not the traditional mold of a 1st Baseman hitter. He upgrades the defense at 1B and will hit for power and have a good OBP.
With Dye, Thome, Quentin Ramirez in the fold you don't need Swisher to be a world beater at 1B, just bring up the avg a bit and hit for power.

gr8mexico
09-05-2008, 01:33 PM
The Sox need to get rid of the older players one way or another. Trading Konerko would improve the team huge. Then you could sign Rocco Baldelli (CF) and Orlando Hudson (2B) or trade for Brian Roberts. That should increase the speed of this lineup huge. The Sox should have the money to sign these players after they get rid of Cabrera (9MIL) Crede (5.1MIL) and trade Konerko(12MIL)

1. Hudson/Roberts
2. Baldelli
3. Quentin
4. Dye
5. Thome
6. Ramirez
7. A.J
8. Swisher
9. Uribe

Brian26
09-06-2008, 09:34 AM
Then you could sign Rocco Baldelli (CF)

He'd be hurt before Cinco de Mayo.

Brian26
09-06-2008, 09:36 AM
Although the Swisher deal looked OK at the time, it looks less attractive every day.

I agree 100%. If Kenny could unload Swisher and his career .250 average this winter, I'd be all for it. Konerko has his requisite half-season slump out of the way for the next couple of years, so hopefully he can finish his contract while posting '04/'05 numbers for us.

guillensdisciple
09-06-2008, 10:00 AM
The Sox need to get rid of the older players one way or another. Trading Konerko would improve the team huge. Then you could sign Rocco Baldelli (CF) and Orlando Hudson (2B) or trade for Brian Roberts. That should increase the speed of this lineup huge. The Sox should have the money to sign these players after they get rid of Cabrera (9MIL) Crede (5.1MIL) and trade Konerko(12MIL)

1. Hudson/Roberts
2. Baldelli
3. Quentin
4. Dye
5. Thome
6. Ramirez
7. A.J
8. Swisher
9. Uribe


I love this idea, considering the fact that Roberts has been on the trading block for years now it seems and can never get off. We can probably dump one of our older guys up there even though it seems that Konerko is beginning to amp up his numbers. Sadly I also believe the Orioles are dumb enough to pull a trade of Konerko for Roberts and even if they are not he is going to be a free agent soon isn't he?

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2008, 10:02 AM
I love this idea, considering the fact that Roberts has been on the trading block for years now it seems and can never get off. We can probably dump one of our older guys up there even though it seems that Konerko is beginning to amp up his numbers. Sadly I also believe the Orioles are dumb enough to pull a trade of Konerko for Roberts and even if they are not he is going to be a free agent soon isn't he?
No, they are not that dumb. They were asking for 3-4 prospects from the Cubs in return for Roberts.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2008, 10:05 AM
I agree 100%. If Kenny could unload Swisher and his career .250 average this winter, I'd be all for it. Konerko has his requisite half-season slump out of the way for the next couple of years, so hopefully he can finish his contract while posting '04/'05 numbers for us.
That would be idiotic. We bought high on him; selling low would be reactionary and foolish.

His salary is cheap and it's likely this season is an anomaly.

Billy Ashley
09-06-2008, 10:09 AM
I love this idea, considering the fact that Roberts has been on the trading block for years now it seems and can never get off. We can probably dump one of our older guys up there even though it seems that Konerko is beginning to amp up his numbers. Sadly I also believe the Orioles are dumb enough to pull a trade of Konerko for Roberts and even if they are not he is going to be a free agent soon isn't he?

Konerko has about zero trade value right now. He's got an OPS + of 99, plays average to bad defense and plays on the easy extreme on the defensive spectrum. I'm not stating that he's done... but this season he's been utterly worthless. He's signed through 2010 and the only way the white sox rid themselves of that contract is if they package him with an excellent player in a salary dump or they heavily subsidize his contract and get back a b level prospect. From a straight value perspective, they should just hold on to him and hope he starts hitting next year... they're not going to get anything of value for him.