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Adele_H
08-25-2008, 06:46 PM
ARGH!

It's not fair. At least it was quick. :mad:

Bunch of WTP and ropes right at 'em by our guys..... while the Birds basically gorked their way on and took advantage of our bad fundamentals:

-Uribe's misread, mistimed jump on Montanez... in addition to earlier error that let Roberts on
-Crede not covering 3B bag on a bunt
-AJ's bunt - bad idea, worse execution.
-Why didn't Anderson try to take 2nd on slow-to-the plate pitcher/catcher battery?

Awful call on DJ Carrasco, BTW - there is all the difference in the world between 1-1 and 2-0 in that situation.

At least Crede looked good. :bandance:

october23sp
08-25-2008, 06:49 PM
ARGH!

It's not fair. At least it was quick. :mad:

Bunch of WTP and ropes right at 'em by our guys..... while the Birds basically gorked their way on and took advantage of our bad fundamentals:

-Uribe's misread, mistimed jump on Montanez... in addition to earlier error that let Roberts on
-Crede not covering 3B bag on a bunt
-AJ's bunt - bad idea, worse execution.
-Why didn't Anderson try to take 2nd on slow-to-the plate pitcher/catcher battery?

Awful call on DJ Carrasco, BTW - there is all the difference in the world between 1-1 and 2-0 in that situation.

At least Crede looked good. :bandance:

Crede played?

cws05champ
08-25-2008, 06:50 PM
This one is on Ozzie..why have Ramirez pitch to a righty in Millar the 2nd time around? He was playing the game not to burn his pen...not to win the game. This one counts just as much as the night cap. :angry::angry:

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 06:56 PM
This one is on Ozzie..why have Ramirez pitch to a righty in Millar the 2nd time around? He was playing the game not to burn his pen...not to win the game. This one counts just as much as the night cap. :angry::angry:

Agreed. Ramirez is better than Logan but he's best at smaller doses, IMO. He tends to work up in the zone too much.

Even if you let him see Markakis, then with Millar & Montanez being both RH - then bring up Carrasco, Dotel or Russell, somebody who can strike a batter out.

Yeah, taller, more agile Alexei not playing 2B cost us that GW run; that was bad luck. But then again, we're lucky Millar's bomb off that meatball by Ramirez carried just foul, so the luck evens out in the end...

EuroSox35
08-25-2008, 07:03 PM
I thought starting the game with relievers was idiotic (not second guessing, said it weeks ago in the other thread and would've still thought it if we won), especially since you're not starting this next game with Floyd. You never know, this second game could go extras too/you don't know when pitchers will be needed (especially since we're using a spot start), why even use a valuable pen arm? :scratch:

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 07:03 PM
Crede played?

Yes. Looked very good on both ends, except maybe one questionable play.

Maybe Crede's presence lights some fire under Cabrera - what with Uribe hitting, somebody might end up being on the bench more often...

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 07:09 PM
I thought starting the game with relievers was idiotic (not second guessing, said it weeks ago in the other thread and would've still thought it if we won), especially since you're not starting this next game with Floyd. You never know, this second game could go extras too/you don't know when pitchers will be needed (especially since we're using a spot start), why even use a valuable pen arm? :scratch:

I had no problem with Ramirez starting: doesn't walk batters; he's left-handed so he's harder to run on if a runner does reach base.... He's a former starter who can go 3-4 innings if needed (though I disagree with that personally after having seen him pitch.)

Starters have different mindset, routine. Don't always start on fire because they're used to having to pace themselves - remember this was a game where even one run probably meant a loss.

Sox had their chances. Hit some balls on the screws. But when push came the shove, they couldn't come up with a big basehit... again.

hawkjt
08-25-2008, 07:09 PM
Bottom line is the sox blew this game back in the spring. They played sloppy then to let the O's back in and they finished it today with some sloppy ball. Darn it.

Konerko05
08-25-2008, 07:15 PM
Thinking Ramirez can go three innings without giving up a run is really pushing it.

Offense had some bad luck. Several ropes directly at people. Crede's line out to right field was a real heartbreaker. I received one last glimmer of hope when Dye emerged out of the shadows behind Uribe to pinch hit. That could have been in a movie.

Tragg
08-25-2008, 07:21 PM
That's great - bunting when down a run in extra innings; wasting 33% of the remaining outs to pick up 1 base, when the team lives and dies by the homer, with the best hitters coming up.
Absolute clown managing.

DickAllen72
08-25-2008, 07:23 PM
Team loss and they deserved to lose considering the way they played the entire 14 innings.

This is who the Sox are--they usually win series against crappy teams at home and struggle to win series against crappy teams on the road. They struggle to win or split series at home against good teams and usually lose series against good teams on the road.

It's going to go down to the wire with the Twins. That seies against them the last week on the road is going to be huge.

SpartanSoxFan
08-25-2008, 07:36 PM
It's going to go down to the wire with the Twins. That series against them the last week on the road is going to be huge.

And, this is why I feel the Sox will be in big, big trouble come late September. :whiner::whiner::whiner:

Hitmen77
08-25-2008, 07:42 PM
Bottom line is the sox blew this game back in the spring. They played sloppy then to let the O's back in and they finished it today with some sloppy ball. Darn it.

Yep. The Sox blew their chance to win this game back in April by playing poor fundamentals.

Why bring in Ramirez for a 3rd inning. It's the O's that had used up a bunch of pitchers already in this game. That was to our advantage since we had more arms available.

Games like this make the Sox look like pretenders instead of contenders.


It's going to go down to the wire with the Twins. That seies against them the last week on the road is going to be huge.

If we're neck and neck with the Twins (at best) going into that Sept series at the Crapdome, we're in deep, deep ****.

PeoriaSoxFan
08-25-2008, 08:21 PM
A lot of good posts here. I really concur with the fact that it seemed like we were managing more to preserve the pen than to win the game. This game should have been played/managed like a playoff game!

delben91
08-25-2008, 08:30 PM
The Sox are ****ty. ****ty teams lose games. Get over it.

That about sum things up in here? Good.

:scratch:

kitekrazy
08-25-2008, 08:34 PM
I thought starting the game with relievers was idiotic (not second guessing, said it weeks ago in the other thread and would've still thought it if we won), especially since you're not starting this next game with Floyd. You never know, this second game could go extras too/you don't know when pitchers will be needed (especially since we're using a spot start), why even use a valuable pen arm? :scratch:

They had to. All players removed from the April game could not be involved.

FedEx227
08-25-2008, 08:35 PM
that's great - bunting when down a run in extra innings; wasting 33% of the remaining outs to pick up 1 base, when the team lives and dies by the homer, with the best hitters coming up.
Absolute clown managing.

ozzie ball... Small-ball! :?:

jabrch
08-25-2008, 08:48 PM
Amazing what a bunch of cowards you guys are...

delben91
08-25-2008, 09:06 PM
Amazing what a bunch of cowards you guys are...

Don't waste your time being reasonable, you know it won't make a dent.

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Amazing what a bunch of cowards you guys are...

Ok, Mods/admins, I call bull on this one:

I have no idea what kind of relationship jabrch has with people running this site, but this guy/girl has been on a veritable ad hominem rampage... the least of which is the usual schtick of calling anyone and anything a troll, believe it or not.

It's one thing to be opinionated, to disagree and maybe even get a little testy. Lord knows, we've all done that. But this one doesn't even bother to thinly disguise his/her personal attacks, or even pretend like he/she is contributing anything to the thread.

Who does he/she think he is, exactly? Some kind of self-proclaimed "Dark Cloud Inquisitor"? I see people, good posters banned all the time for far less.

kittle42
08-25-2008, 09:13 PM
Amazing what a bunch of cowards you guys are...

"Coward" and "pissed off" are two different things.

It's Dankerific
08-25-2008, 09:31 PM
As someone mentioned in the gamethread, if AJ gets the bunt down, they probably IBB TCQ anyways, leading to the same result, 1st and 2nd, 1 out. At least this way, TCQ had a chance to swing the bat.

Still ****ing stupid to a) let the pitcher go past 1 batter in the 3rd inning of resumption and b) not let AJ swing away.

Thats our management though. But, its all the players fault for not executing....

turners56
08-25-2008, 09:45 PM
I thought we were gonna win in the 12th...and Q almost did it. That ball might have been gone in our park.

turners56
08-25-2008, 09:52 PM
I've never seen two terribly called on and executed bunts like the one today and the one BA whiffed on 4 months ago. Part of it is on Ozzie, but the guys have to execute. I love small-ball. I bunt whenever I can in my games and in video games. But our team just can't bunt for ****.

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I've never seen two terribly called on and executed bunts like the one today and the one BA whiffed on 4 months ago. Part of it is on Ozzie, but the guys have to execute. I love small-ball. I bunt whenever I can in my games and in video games. But our team just can't bunt for ****.

I don't mind a bunt if it's someone who's REALLY good at it and is fast enough to beat it out if a fielder so much as double-clutches...

Especially if the game is tied, at Home... and the opposing pitcher is
really nasty, is someone who the Sox hitter in question normally doesn't do a good job swinging against.

But in that situation... facing Cherry Pie or whoever that doofus was on the mound for the Birds..... down by a run, on the Road.... with Quentin, Dye and Thome coming up.... AND considering that AJ is not a great bunter, nor is he fleet of foot......

Come on.

Boondock Saint
08-25-2008, 10:15 PM
Ok, Mods/admins, I call bull on this one:

I have no idea what kind of relationship jabrch has with people running this site, but this guy/girl has been on a veritable ad hominem rampage... the least of which is the usual schtick of calling anyone and anything a troll, believe it or not.

It's one thing to be opinionated, to disagree and maybe even get a little testy. Lord knows, we've all done that. But this one doesn't even bother to thinly disguise his/her personal attacks, or even pretend like he/she is contributing anything to the thread.

Who does he/she think he is, exactly? Some kind of self-proclaimed "Dark Cloud Inquisitor"? I see people, good posters banned all the time for far less.

He calls people out when they're being morons. He ripped me once, and I deserved it. The number of "The Sox/Ozzie/Walker/goat of the day...sucks" posts that pop up after a loss is staggering and irritating to no end. If you want to talk about the game, that's fine. But too many people show up here after games and rip the Sox and use "I'm pissed off/venting" as an excuse. It's a poor excuse.

TornLabrum
08-25-2008, 10:23 PM
Ok, Mods/admins, I call bull on this one:

I have no idea what kind of relationship jabrch has with people running this site, but this guy/girl has been on a veritable ad hominem rampage... the least of which is the usual schtick of calling anyone and anything a troll, believe it or not.

It's one thing to be opinionated, to disagree and maybe even get a little testy. Lord knows, we've all done that. But this one doesn't even bother to thinly disguise his/her personal attacks, or even pretend like he/she is contributing anything to the thread.

Who does he/she think he is, exactly? Some kind of self-proclaimed "Dark Cloud Inquisitor"? I see people, good posters banned all the time for far less.

Let me remind you of something: Leave the modding to the mods.

jabrch
08-25-2008, 10:30 PM
"Coward" and "pissed off" are two different things.

There's a significant difference between the two...I agree. Most of this thread is cowardly.

Nellie_Fox
08-25-2008, 11:43 PM
A lot of good posts here. I really concur with the fact that it seemed like we were managing more to preserve the pen than to win the game. This game should have been played/managed like a playoff game!Why? Why is this game "like a playoff game?" Is it more important than the next three or four games that would be affected by a trashed pen? You have to pick your spots.

DSpivack
08-25-2008, 11:51 PM
I thought TCQ's shot was gone, seeing a walkoff on the road would have been unique. Oh well, at least I saw one victory tonight.

The Dude
08-26-2008, 12:16 AM
This one is on Ozzie..why have Ramirez pitch to a righty in Millar the 2nd time around? He was playing the game not to burn his pen...not to win the game. This one counts just as much as the night cap. :angry::angry:

I blame Ozzie for this one. Ramirez pitched an awesome 2 innings. Now it was time for DJ. instead he waits for 2 runners.
Also we cannot forget who was last at bat... Dye sucks when the game is on the line. his avg is horrible at that paint. Don't even bother....**** you oeo......You have no frame of reference.

Mod edit: Bad choice of words. Directly personal attack, and you've been around long enough to know better.

Domeshot17
08-26-2008, 12:27 AM
It is a tough one to win being its a short game (pretty much sudden death), but if we could have pulled it out, we would be 2 up right now. Might prove to be a big loss

voodoochile
08-26-2008, 12:34 AM
ESPN with some interesting stats from this game:

KGJ appeared for both the Sox and The Reds in the 4/28 game.

Luis Montanez - the guy who drove in the winning run had a game winning RBI 3 months before his MLB debut...

UofCSoxFan
08-26-2008, 12:37 AM
ESPN with some interesting stats from this game:

KGJ appeared for both the Sox and The Reds in the 4/28 game.

Luis Montanez - the guy who drove in the winning run had a game winning RBI 3 months before his MLB debut...

It's interesting that the game winning hit will go down as his first major league hit....although I doubht he kept the ball as is customary for one's first major league it.

PeteWard
08-26-2008, 12:37 AM
ESPN with some interesting stats from this game:

KGJ appeared for both the Sox and The Reds in the 4/28 game.

Luis Montanez - the guy who drove in the winning run had a game winning RBI 3 months before his MLB debut...

Mr Peabody must have let him use The Way-back Machine!

TDog
08-26-2008, 03:50 AM
As someone mentioned in the gamethread, if AJ gets the bunt down, they probably IBB TCQ anyways, leading to the same result, 1st and 2nd, 1 out. At least this way, TCQ had a chance to swing the bat.

Still ****ing stupid to a) let the pitcher go past 1 batter in the 3rd inning of resumption and b) not let AJ swing away.

Thats our management though. But, its all the players fault for not executing....

The Sox lost the resumption of the suspended game because they didn't score in the first two innings when they had the opportunity to end the game with what Jack Brickhouse used to call "any old kind of run." With Quentin leading off, people have assumed for a couple of months that the Sox would score a quick run in their first at bat and head into the second game. As things worked out, there was no telling when the game would end.

I have no problem with Guillen leaving Ramirez in the game for the third inning of work. He needed to get as much as he could from the bullpen. He particularly needed to not run out of pitchers. In the suspended game ended with the Harold Baines home run more than two decades ago, Tom Seaver got the win because the Sox ran out of pitchers and needed to go to their scheduled regular game starter.

I'm not second-guessing when I not I did have a problem with trying to bunt with Pierzynski. Of course a successful bunt would have taken the bat out of Quentin's hands. There would have been no reason to pitch to Quentin.

But moreover, I have a fundamental problem with bunting in that situation. The Sox were down by a run with three outs left. Scoring from second base on a single is far from automatic. Bunting hurts the Sox chances to score.

Note that the Orioles did not bunt the leadoff single along. Had they done so, putting a runner on second with one out for Cintron, the Sox might have won the game. With the score tied, the Orioles didn't bunt until the sacrifice put a runner on third with less than two out.

Pierzynski was having a bad day. It is probable that strikeout or successful sacrifice, the inning would have played out the same. Of course, the real reason the Sox lost was because they didn't score, and down by one in their third inning, two hitters failed to get the hit that at minimum would have tied the game.

jabrch
08-26-2008, 05:52 AM
I blame Ozzie for this one.

Ozzie didn't get a hit with RISP? He pitched poorly? Bullcrap...

It is easy for fans to blame the manager because we believe we could put on a uniform - if only to tell people what to do. But it is more appropriate to blame those who failed to execute.

It is even more appropriate to just credit the Os who won a game by executing...but some people don't want to hear that - they need someone to blame.

delben91
08-26-2008, 06:28 AM
"Coward" and "pissed off" are two different things.

Pissed off is one thing. However, there are posters on here (not you) that will take even a win and find every item in the win they can to still be pissed off about it. Even win's aren't perfect, no game ever is, and so they have the ability to be pissed off every single night.

cws05champ
08-26-2008, 07:24 AM
Ozzie didn't get a hit with RISP? He pitched poorly? Bullcrap...

It is easy for fans to blame the manager because we believe we could put on a uniform - if only to tell people what to do. But it is more appropriate to blame those who failed to execute.

It is even more appropriate to just credit the Os who won a game by executing...but some people don't want to hear that - they need someone to blame.
I'm not a dark cloud, and I rarely blame Ozzie. In the 1st game though after a lead off hit by left Markakis...why would you leave Ramirez in there to face a righty in Millar. DJ was ready, bring him in...don't wait until they get 2 on a nobody out to pull him. It made no sense.

doublem23
08-26-2008, 07:28 AM
It is a tough one to win being its a short game (pretty much sudden death), but if we could have pulled it out, we would be 2 up right now. Might prove to be a big loss

It'd be nice to have a 2-game lead right now for sure, but in the end, it's the same .6% of the season just like every other game.

jabrch
08-26-2008, 07:35 AM
I'm not a dark cloud, and I rarely blame Ozzie. In the 1st game though after a lead off hit by left Markakis...why would you leave Ramirez in there to face a righty in Millar. DJ was ready, bring him in...don't wait until they get 2 on a nobody out to pull him. It made no sense.

One POSSIBLE answer...

We had another game coming up (which went to extra innings - but he had no way to know that), Jenks went two on Sunday. DJ went 1.1. Dotel had struggled the day before that...

Ozzie could have been giving some guys a shot a resting. Ramirez looked good - there was no way to KNOW what was going to happen - without the benefit of hindsight. You can't just pull pitchers like that - you will kill your bullpen.

Save McCuddy's
08-26-2008, 07:59 AM
The bunt was an awful call. Plain and simple --awful.

Boondock Saint
08-26-2008, 03:21 PM
The bunt was an awful call. Plain and simple --awful.

This line is said EVERY time a batter fails to gets a bunt down, and omitted EVERY time said batter succeeds.

FedEx227
08-26-2008, 03:35 PM
This line is said EVERY time a batter fails to gets a bunt down, and omitted EVERY time said batter succeeds.

It was a stupid situation to call for the bunt. Drop the small ball, grinder-ball bull**** and stop giving up outs. Not a big deal, not a make or break game, but the odd situational bunting is really getting stupid. There are a few guys I'd condone laying bunts down on this team and AJ is not one of them. Much like Dusty making Dunn bunt, or TLR telling Pujols to lay one down. It doesn't make sense.

KempersRS
08-26-2008, 04:02 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned, but I was just glancing at the schedule and the loss last night started (and extended) the White Sox longest losing streak of the season at 7 games.

Not surprising they went on to lose the next 6 games after the way they played last night.

Save McCuddy's
08-26-2008, 09:00 PM
This line is said EVERY time a batter fails to gets a bunt down, and omitted EVERY time said batter succeeds.

I have very consistently represented my hatred for the bunt. I don't care whether he's successful with that bunt or not. A left handed hitter with natural ability to pull the ball to the right side should never be bunting.

The only instances in which I believe in the bunt are:

men on first and second after the 7th inning in a 2 run game or tighter and nobody out.

The batter has the speed and skill set to challenge for a base hit.

Otherwise, forget it.

Adele_H
08-29-2008, 03:41 PM
I have very consistently represented my hatred for the bunt. I don't care whether he's successful with that bunt or not. A left handed hitter with natural ability to pull the ball to the right side should never be bunting.

The only instances in which I believe in the bunt are:

men on first and second after the 7th inning in a 2 run game or tighter and nobody out.

The batter has the speed and skill set to challenge for a base hit.

Otherwise, forget it.


Right.

I'll add that in addition to the Big S's - situation, skill & speed [of the bunter]..............defensive alignment, and the fielding ability of the pitcher AND corner INF should play a role in a manager's decision.

That was a game that Sox should have won long before 13th inning or whatever, but to Coprseball it up like that when it resumed, well that just added insult to injury.