PDA

View Full Version : I'm still trying to figure how Cabrera won a gold glove


Elephant
08-24-2008, 01:28 PM
Any hard hit ball right at him in a critical situation, you can count on him ole-ing it. If he makes the play last night it could be two and we might get out of that inning with a tie. He did the same thing a while back in Minnesota in a similar situation. We lost that game too.

Offensively he hits more lazy fly balls than any top of the order guy should. Overall, he only appears to be concerned with personal stats.

We didn't give up much to get him and offensively he's much better than Uribe (not saying much) but all we can look forward to is hopefully a compensation pick and more hopefully that we sign that pick.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 01:30 PM
Any hard hit ball right at him in a critical situation, you can count on him ole-ing it. If he makes the play last night it could be two and we might get out of that inning with a tie. He did the same thing a while back in Minnesota in a similar situation. We lost that game too.

Offensively he hits more lazy fly balls than any top of the order guy should. Overall, he only appears to be concerned with personal stats.

We didn't give up much to get him and offensively he's much better than Uribe (not saying much) but all we can look forward to is hopefully a compensation pick and more hopefully that we sign that pick.
Or...y'know, two picks. But who's counting?

Elephant
08-24-2008, 01:34 PM
Thanks for the contribution.

It's Dankerific
08-24-2008, 01:34 PM
Calgon, TAKE HIM AWAY!!!

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the contribution.
Well it makes a pretty big difference. You pissing your pants about his play and then trying to pass fiction along as fact wasn't really the most compelling topic.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-24-2008, 02:08 PM
Calgon, TAKE HIM AWAY!!!

Yep.

I was at the game, sitting in the lower deck about as close to Cabrera as you can get. Yeah, the runner was in front of him but still, that play needs to be made.

Marqhead
08-24-2008, 03:29 PM
His play today has been exemplary.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-24-2008, 03:49 PM
His play today has been exemplary.

:rolling: Posted after he booted that ball in the 6th, I assume.

MarySwiss
08-24-2008, 04:02 PM
His play today has been exemplary.

:rolling: Posted after he booted that ball in the 6th, I assume.

Reading my mind, Tee! Up to that point, I said he must've eaten his Wheaties, but damn! By and large, when push comes to shove, he sucks IMO.

areilly
08-24-2008, 04:02 PM
A friend and I were discussing this same topic a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion there just might not be enough competition for the hardware.

35th and Shields
08-24-2008, 04:10 PM
11 errors was his entire total for last year but overall he's not that far off of his career average. 2001-11 2002-29 2003-18 2004-15 2005-7 2006-16 2007-11. I feel like all of his errors are always highlighted on this board every time he has one. Also his fielding percentage far superior to the league average. His .981 to the leagues .971

Marqhead
08-24-2008, 04:22 PM
11 errors was his entire total for last year but overall he's not that far off of his career average. 2001-11 2002-29 2003-18 2004-15 2005-7 2006-16 2007-11. I feel like all of his errors are always highlighted on this board every time he has one. Also his fielding percentage far superior to the league average. His .981 to the leagues .971
Thats because it seems that most, if not all of his errors come is huge situations, and with runners on.

Don't tell me what you field, tell me when you field it.

35th and Shields
08-24-2008, 04:41 PM
Thats because it seems that most, if not all of his errors come is huge situations, and with runners on.

Don't tell me what you field, tell me when you field it.

Yeah I don't even know what to say to that. It's pretty safe to say that having a fielding percentage 10 points higher then the average player at your position would be the better choice.

Daver
08-24-2008, 04:44 PM
Yeah I don't even know what to say to that. It's pretty safe to say that having a fielding percentage 10 points higher then the average player at your position would be the better choice.

Fielding Percentage is a pretty useless stat.

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 04:52 PM
A friend and I were discussing this same topic a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion there just might not be enough competition for the hardware.

The Gold Glove Award hasn't been about defense for awhile now. Hell, Jeter has been given THREE of the damned things, and he is one of the worst defensive SS in baseball (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172008/news/nationalnews/youve_got_to_be_kidding__98050.htm?page=0). Palmeiro won one at 1B after playing only 38 games at the position!

When Cabrera won his GG's in 2001 and 2007, he had above-average offensive years at the position, that would be my guess.

35th and Shields
08-24-2008, 04:58 PM
Fielding Percentage is a pretty useless stat.

Well in this argument it gives a black and white picture that he is an above average fielder. The average fielder would most likely make the play but in the long run he would probably cost you runs then Cabrera would

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 05:01 PM
Well in this argument it gives a black and white picture that he is an above average fielder. The average fielder would most likely make the play but in the long run he would probably cost you runs then Cabrera would

Actually, no, and this is probably the first time Daver and I have agreed on something, Fielding Percentage is absolutely worthless for what it is trying to describe. It's problem IS that it's black and white, and it either punishes someone for not making the play a scorer THINKS he should have made or it can reward you for making a simple play or just not getting to the ball correctly (think: Jeter).

Daver
08-24-2008, 05:05 PM
Actually, no, and this is probably the first time Daver and I have agreed on something, Fielding Percentage is absolutely worthless for what it is trying to describe. It's problem IS that it's black and white, and it either punishes someone for not making the play a scorer THINKS he should have made or it can reward you for making a simple play or just not getting to the ball correctly (think: Jeter).

Exactly.

Any stat that is subject to human opinion isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 05:12 PM
Exactly.

Any stat that is subject to human opinion isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Daver, we should have like a party or something man. This is a momentous occasion! LOL

35th and Shields
08-24-2008, 05:12 PM
Actually, no, and this is probably the first time Daver and I have agreed on something, Fielding Percentage is absolutely worthless for what it is trying to describe. It's problem IS that it's black and white, and it either punishes someone for not making the play a scorer THINKS he should have made or it can reward you for making a simple play or just not getting to the ball correctly (think: Jeter).

I see what your saying and I know it's not a great stat to use but that doesn't mean you can use it to say that you can't decipher who the better fielder is. The fact is that Cabrera IS an above average fielder.

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 05:15 PM
I see what your saying and I know it's not a great stat to use but that doesn't mean you can use it to say that you can't decipher who the better fielder is. The fact is that Cabrera IS an above average fielder.

Well that very well may BE a fact, but Fielding Percentage is such a horrible statistic, I wouldn't (and most people don't, either) anything it has to say, and I would hold my judgment on his fielding abilities until I can look at his numbers in a more descriptive (though not perfect) statistical category.

wassagstdu
08-24-2008, 05:47 PM
Above average is not good enough. We have two other shortstops who are better.

[One of those is a prediction, but based on some pretty good evidence.]

KyWhiSoxFan
08-24-2008, 05:56 PM
He did not win many friends in the Sox front office for any kind of contract discussions beyond this year with his play this weekend against the Rays.

DickAllen72
08-24-2008, 05:58 PM
Thats because it seems that most, if not all of his errors come is huge situations, and with runners on.

Don't tell me what you field, tell me when you field it.
Plus, he doesn't play very smart baseball which was supposed to be one of his strengths.

And his supposed clubhouse leadership hasn't been there either.

When they first made the trade I was happy they got him, but in a Sox uniform he has turned out to be almost the opposite type of player than I always thought he was.

soxinem1
08-24-2008, 06:00 PM
11 errors was his entire total for last year but overall he's not that far off of his career average. 2001-11 2002-29 2003-18 2004-15 2005-7 2006-16 2007-11. I feel like all of his errors are always highlighted on this board every time he has one. Also his fielding percentage far superior to the league average. His .981 to the leagues .971

I am no big Cabrera fan, but I'll take him defensively over most SS, and he is a far better option than Uribe.

But hey, he'll be on the west coast next year and we'll be busy bitching about Edgar Renteria.

35th and Shields
08-24-2008, 06:05 PM
Above average is not good enough. We have two other shortstops who are better.

[One of those is a prediction, but based on some pretty good evidence.]

So you would rather have OC on the bench in favor of uribe?

Daver
08-24-2008, 07:00 PM
Daver, we should have like a party or something man. This is a momentous occasion! LOL

Contrary to what many think, I am not anti stats, I just have little use for stats that measure nothing, like VORP and PECOTA and some of the other pure science fiction dreamt up by BP to give them a reason to charge people to get little real info from the website.

tacosalbarojas
08-24-2008, 07:05 PM
So you would rather have OC on the bench in favor of uribe?Wouldn't say this, but if OC has two gold gloves, Uribe should have five.

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 07:09 PM
Contrary to what many think, I am not anti stats, I just have little use for stats that measure nothing, like VORP and PECOTA and some of the other pure science fiction dreamt up by BP to give them a reason to charge people to get little real info from the website.

PECOTA I will give you as pure BS, but I'd like to see what the VORP formula has to offer, if they ever release it. That is the thing that has kept me away from VORP: if they would just release the formula for people to see what it measures and how it does it, people would be able to see if it is a real usable stat or just mental masturbation (as you say).

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 07:12 PM
Wouldn't say this, but if OC has two gold gloves, Uribe should have five.

No, Uribe really shouldn't, outside of 2004, Uribe has never had the offensive numbers to win a Gold Glove (since the GG has clearly become an offensive award [see: Derek Jeter]).

MarySwiss
08-24-2008, 07:37 PM
No, Uribe really shouldn't, outside of 2004, Uribe has never had the offensive numbers to win a Gold Glove (since the GG has clearly become an offensive award [see: Derek Jeter]).

Well, that's pathetic right there. But I think you're right. It's a farce, just like so many other beauty contests in MLB, like the All-Star selections. Derek Jeter as a perennial Gold Glover?

turners56
08-24-2008, 07:54 PM
11 errors was his entire total for last year but overall he's not that far off of his career average. 2001-11 2002-29 2003-18 2004-15 2005-7 2006-16 2007-11. I feel like all of his errors are always highlighted on this board every time he has one. Also his fielding percentage far superior to the league average. His .981 to the leagues .971

He's the Octavio Dotel for the shortstop position. :redneck

turners56
08-24-2008, 07:56 PM
Exactly.

Any stat that is subject to human opinion isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Then pitchers' stats might as well never be recorded because the umpire calls balls/strikes on the way he sees and THINKS on whether or not it is a strike or a ball.

Don't get me wrong, fielding% is a terrible way to judge a defender, but I was just being nitpicky on your wording.

Daver
08-24-2008, 08:01 PM
Then pitchers' stats might as well never be recorded because the umpire calls balls/strikes on the way he sees and THINKS on whether or not it is a strike or a ball.

Don't get me wrong, fielding% is a terrible way to judge a defender, but I was just being nitpicky on your wording.

Perhaps my wording does suck, but the umpire calls the game the same for both sides, the official scorer does not.

Beer Can Chicken
08-24-2008, 08:38 PM
The Gold Glove Award hasn't been about defense for awhile now. Hell, Jeter has been given THREE of the damned things, and he is one of the worst defensive SS in baseball (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172008/news/nationalnews/youve_got_to_be_kidding__98050.htm?page=0). Palmeiro won one at 1B after playing only 38 games at the position!

When Cabrera won his GG's in 2001 and 2007, he had above-average offensive years at the position, that would be my guess.

Yeah, the Palmeiro thing is a joke. It's also about reputation - Tori Hunter won a GG in 2005 and only played 98 games.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 09:44 PM
I've ripped undiscerning primitive stats like Range Factor and even the Jamesean bastardmetric like Win Shares before, advocating watching the game as basis for assessment of fielding prowess....

but I gotta say that saying 'Fielding % is totally worthless' is carrying the arguement to the OTHER extreme.

Unless, you have otherworldly range & arm strenght & ultra-aggressive approach to fielding.... committing, say, 40 errors at SS is generally not a good idea. Mike Morse was a bad defensive SS, period.

And unless you are a statue with a noodle arm & with a scared, err, conservative approach to fielding tougher, riskier plays........ committing 4 errors at SS over a full season generally means you're pretty good. Omar Vizquel was a good defensive SS, period.

OF defense is trickier, I submit.

Daver
08-24-2008, 09:47 PM
I've ripped undiscerning primitive stats like Range Factor and even the Jamesean bastardmetric like Win Shares before, advocating watching the game as basis for assessment of fielding prowess....

but I gotta say that saying 'Fielding % is totally worthless' is carrying the arguement to the OTHER extreme.



Royce Clayton.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 10:09 PM
Royce Clayton.

Touche.

There's definately gray area. That's why no defensive stat substitutes watching the game.

But that still doesn't mean that we should excuse error-prone, stone-handed and/or lackadaisical fielders with low FP - just because the stat itself is not perfect or all-encompassing, either.

FedEx227
08-24-2008, 10:40 PM
Defensive stats are hard. I like to look at Zone Rating, while it is nowhere near the replacement of actually watching, it helps a bit in evaluating ability to get to balls and overall range.

When looking at good defenders I tend to blend Zone Rating, The Fielding Bibles +/- Ratings and the good ole eyes.

Tragg
08-24-2008, 10:41 PM
The absence of errors doesn't indicate good defense. But I think a high error rate precludes one from being a really good defender.
I realize that errors could be offset by turning base-hits into outs sometimes. The judgment of the scorer should balance out over the course of a season...you'll get some Es that shouldn't be and you won't get some that should have been.

Offer Cabrera arb and hope he declines.

FedEx227
08-24-2008, 10:45 PM
The absence of errors doesn't indicate good defense. But I think a high error rate precludes one from being a really good defender.
I realize that errors could be offset by turning base-hits into outs sometimes. The judgment of the scorer should balance out over the course of a season...you'll get some Es that shouldn't be and you won't get some that should have been.

But it still remains most of the time errors are a very opinion-based, home field advantage type stat. Countless times you'll see a first basemen or second basemen boot an easy roller and they count it as a hit because of a "tough bounce" or it was "hit really hard".

To me, that's pathetic. That is no way what so ever to chronicle a players season defensively.

That'd be like eliminating strikeouts on really good pitches. Well Konerko struck out swinging, but that was a REALLY nasty sinker, most guys wouldn't have hit that, so we'll just strike it from the record.

Vienna
08-24-2008, 10:54 PM
I know I said "call it up" this weekend a couple times against the Rays. That's what I mumble to myself when OC boots balls it seems he should get. I think the Sox are a slightly better team with him, but I'm not going to miss him when he's gone.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 11:03 PM
That'd be like eliminating strikeouts on really good pitches. Well Konerko struck out swinging, but that was a REALLY nasty sinker, most guys wouldn't have hit that, so we'll just strike it from the record..



Or like "Pitcher A sure gave up a bomb but, dude, did you see that unholy Barry Bonds swing? No way a pitcher should be charged with that HR. Besides, if that OF would have timed that leap perfectly, it's an out"