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View Full Version : *Officially* Painful Post Game Thread 8/23... Sox Lose 5-3


kevingrt
08-23-2008, 05:59 PM
This sucks.

turners56
08-23-2008, 06:00 PM
The Rays are the new Minnesota Twins. I heard that a possible reason OC screwed up on Upton's ball is that Bartlett screamed at him like a little bitch. Ex-Twins, always ****ing cheap.

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-23-2008, 06:00 PM
Man...we really need someone to fill our 8th inning void....

Got beat by a good team not much else to say....

Viva Medias B's
08-23-2008, 06:00 PM
I rarely blame Ozzie after a loss. This is an exception. Even though Thornton was totally useless, Guillen left Vazquez in too long.

chisoxmike
08-23-2008, 06:01 PM
Another series loss against a team over .500.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-23-2008, 06:01 PM
This team desperately needs Linebrink back and at his best for the 8th inning. They would have a half-dozen more wins if he was still healthy.

BeviBall!
08-23-2008, 06:01 PM
Rays showing why they're the best in baseball. They use every, last one of those 27 outs while we see fit to mainly use 22/23.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-23-2008, 06:01 PM
****ing horse****...this is turning in to the weekend from hell.
Two more blown leads...fix this crap.:angry:

turners56
08-23-2008, 06:01 PM
I rarely blame Ozzie after a loss. This is an exception. Even though Thornton was totally useless, Guillen left Vazquez in too long.

He had 80 pitches going into the 8th. After what the bullpen did last night, I don't blame him at all.

kittle42
08-23-2008, 06:02 PM
Playoff-like level of play for the opponent the last two days. Not much offense. Two bullpen collapses. Two losses.

The Rays just showed the Sox how to play baseball right.

Cross your fingers, hope the Angels figure out they're the Angels, and hopefully remain 1/2 game out of both 1st and the WC.

Jose.Contreras
08-23-2008, 06:02 PM
given the circumstances of todays game let's break down why this is our worst loss of '08.

It's late September, 1/2 game out of first, playing a first place ballclub, having a perfect game through 5 and 2/3, having a 2-0 lead, having a 3-1 lead in the 8th, and following yesterday's blown game...............I'd say this was the worst loss of our season up to this point. AGONY:(:

turners56
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
Playoff-like level of play for the opponent the last two days. Not much offense. Two bullpen collapses. Two losses.

The Rays just showed the Sox how to play baseball right.

Cross your fingers, hope the Angels figure out they're the Angels, and hopefully remain 1/2 game out of both 1st and the WC.

Let's not forget that they got a bunch of calls going their way...

JB98
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
You figured this would be a big test for the Sox. So far, they have flunked it.

Outpitched, outhit, outfielded and outmanaged. Both teams got what they deserved.

PatK
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
Thank God we didn't give up anything to acquire Chad Bradford.

The guy is useless and we couldn't have used him.

soxfanreggie
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
9 K's by our top 5 hitters. Pretty much all of them buy Dye had a rough day.

arKnaD7
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
I've learned two things from this game:

1) Whenever a Sox pitcher has a perfect game through 5, the White Sox will lose (unless they don't lose the perfect game)

2) Never bring Matt Thornton in w/ runners on base in a close game

Tomorrow is officially the first biggest game of the year. We need Buehrle to step up and put the team on his shoulder for one game. Can afford to get swept at home.

kittle42
08-23-2008, 06:03 PM
given the circustances of being late September, 1/2 game out of first, playing a first place ballclub, having a perfect game through 5 and 2/3, having a 2-0 lead, having a 3-1 lead in the 8th, and following yesterday's blown game...............I'd say this was the worst loss of our season up to this point. AGONY:(:

Bah. I'm not even sure it was the worst loss in the last few weeks. That **** Dotel game a week ago Friday was terrible.

It's Time
08-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Long ball or nothing will never get in done in the playoffs. Two VERY bad late losses. This, in effect, has now made that Twins/Angels series just 4 games off the Twins road trip as they now will be no worse then .5 out after that series.

Heck, they'll more then likely 1.5 or 2.5 up. Ozzie had to get JV out of there but Thorton did not get the job done. This is not on Ozzie, it's on the ever crumbling pen again.

They really need to win tomorrow.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-23-2008, 06:05 PM
The Rays are the new Minnesota Twins. I heard that a possible reason OC screwed up on Upton's ball is that Bartlett screamed at him like a little bitch. Ex-Twins, always ****ing cheap.

Bartlett might be an ex-twin ******* bitch but if OC gets distracted
by that little league bull****,then he needs to ****ing get over it and handle
the business of playing a major league SS.

kittle42
08-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Let's not forget that they got a bunch of calls going their way...

You people and your whining about the umps is as embarrassing as Hawk's. Every team gets bad calls. Deal with it.

Some people here would say the Sox would be undefeated if not for the umpiring.

Madvora
08-23-2008, 06:05 PM
The playoffs should be fun if the Twins and Rays both make it... (and we do too)

BeviBall!
08-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Tampa's SS makes routine plays as well.

SOXSINCE'70
08-23-2008, 06:05 PM
:cuss::cuss::cuss:

This really,really sucks.Enough said.

Go Jon Garland,Go Halos. Please,someone BEAT THE DAMN TWINS!!!!

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 06:06 PM
White Sox are getting outplayed in every aspect of the game this series.

2906
08-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Horrible loss. I can't even begin to count at how many pitches White Sox hitters chased that were out of the strike zone. Even Alexei Ramirez' lengthy at bat, he could have walked at least twice. I don't think Kazmir threw him but 1-2 strikes in what was at least a 10 pitch at bat.

Then, Thornton got behind Iwamura and the guy fouled off 6-7 pitches, all he wanted to do was get on base and he did. Credit to him, but Thornton didn't do the job.

A total team loss, just like last night. Not enough execution on both sides of the ball.

Jose.Contreras
08-23-2008, 06:06 PM
I rarely blame Ozzie after a loss. This is an exception. Even though Thornton was totally useless, Guillen left Vazquez in too long.

Oh come on! Vasquez had 90 pitches total today. He was dominating. Ozzie gave him one more batter in the 8th after first two got on. If my choices were between Vasquez (having fantastic game) and our disgustingly pathetic bullpen, I'M KEEPING JAVY IN TO FACE BARTLETT. You can question Guillen leaving him in there, but then if he pulls Javy there and our crap bullpen blows it...you're going to arguing the exact opposite stating "I'ld never have pulled Javy in the 8th there"

Ozzie was stuck between a rock and a hard place in the eight. He chose the lesser of two evils. An (up to that point) dominat Javier Vasquez swho was losing his mojo, or a gas can bullpen. Ozzie isn't getting the blame on this one.

Viva Medias B's
08-23-2008, 06:07 PM
He had 80 pitches going into the 8th. After what the bullpen did last night, I don't blame him at all.

Pitch count be damned. You could tell that Vazquez was tiring as he went along.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-23-2008, 06:07 PM
Bah. I'm not even sure it was the worst loss in the last few weeks. That **** Dotel game a week ago Friday was terrible.

Agreed...that first Oakland game would have been legit grounds to
commit a felony.:mad:

white sox bill
08-23-2008, 06:07 PM
As sucky as this is, is just a mere speed bump. We will win tomorrow. Bank on it. Everything will be fine

kevingrt
08-23-2008, 06:09 PM
He had 80 pitches going into the 8th. After what the bullpen did last night, I don't blame him at all.

Completely agree. Anyone that blames Ozzie for this loss obviously has not watched the bullpen the past two weeks or has a very short term memory.

JB98
08-23-2008, 06:09 PM
Bartlett might be an ex-twin ******* bitch but if OC gets distracted
by that little league bull****,then he needs to ****ing get over it and handle
the business of playing a major league SS.

I agree. That play is Cabrera's fault. The White Sox have not been able to get key outs in this series, especially late in games. When the Rays need a big pitch or defensive play, they make one. That's why they have the best record in the American League.

I think people should stop whining about umpires and Jason Bartlett. The Sox blew this game. They have no one to blame but themselves.

2906
08-23-2008, 06:10 PM
9 K's by our top 5 hitters. Pretty much all of them buy Dye had a rough day.

Good point. Tough pitcher they faced, but if you're gonna win, you have to beat good pitching. I think they could've done it if they'd only have a bit more plate discipline. But that's an ongoing theme, they have what they have at this point, so it's live or die with these guys. The last two games here ... not good.

PatK
08-23-2008, 06:10 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't understand why we traded for Cabrera?

2906
08-23-2008, 06:11 PM
I think people should stop whining about umpires and Jason Bartlett. The Sox blew this game. They have no one to blame but themselves.

I agree. That's why I'm so annoyed right now. They need to execute better, and didn't.

kevingrt
08-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't understand why we traded for Cabrera?

We had no back-up shortstop. And don't say Uribe was an option. Every single Sox fan in the world hated him by the end of last year. And every single Sox fan was wondering why he was still on the team come spring training. We had no other option at SS. Now in hindsight it looks like a crap trade, but back in the day in made a little more sense.

fram40
08-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Two walks and a crap defensive play by our great shortstop lead to a loss. Unbelievable

2906
08-23-2008, 06:13 PM
As sucky as this is, is just a mere speed bump. We will win tomorrow. Bank on it. Everything will be fine

Hey I like your style and I hope you're right.

Jose.Contreras
08-23-2008, 06:13 PM
Bah. I'm not even sure it was the worst loss in the last few weeks. That **** Dotel game a week ago Friday was terrible.


It's funny that you say that because up until this loss, I have been on record saying the Dotel meltdown in Oakland was our worst loss. Pick your poison. Either way you look at it, this season we've had a ton of damning losses.

october23sp
08-23-2008, 06:13 PM
I can feel the Playoffs slipping through our fingers. Just because we kick the **** out of ****ty teams doesn't mean we gained a big lead and the Twins aren't gunna ****ing lay down. We need a 2 or more game lead going into that series with them or we don't win the division simple as that.:angry:

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 06:13 PM
Vintage Vazquez. Goes from zero to a 'complete meltdown' when things aren't going his way in 3.7 seconds.... ****ing around with Gabe Gross in particular was absolutely inexcusable.

Which is not to say that umpiring in the 8th wasn't awful because it was. There isn't another good veteran pitcher that would be squeezed the way Vazquez was especially on Gabe ****ing Gross who hasn't earned that kind of benefit of the doubt from umpires. In the meantime, Shingo Bradford and Dan Wheeler were getting everything called for strikes up, down, in, out.

We're almost in Septmeber and Matt Thornton still hasn't thrown a slider worth a damn in a big situation, paying the price in the Iwamura at-bat where even a decent slider gets a K. Between him and Dotel losing their feel for off-speed stuff which makes them very predictable now, it's ridiculous why Don Cooper isn't being called to task.

Which brings us to The Choice 2.0 blowing a tailor made DP that effectively decided this game and the series.

Is it too much to ask to score without the aid of a HR once in a while? Jim Thome's bat couldn't be slower right now; if it's the groin that's bothering him again, then sit the **** down and let others players play for a little bit.:mad:

kittle42
08-23-2008, 06:13 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't understand why we traded for Cabrera?

He's been serviceable and Garland has been Garland. All things considered, though, I'm not trading a No. 3 or 4 starter for Orlando Cabrera. I said it before the season and I'll say it now.

october23sp
08-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't understand why we traded for Cabrera?

I don't understand all this hatred if Paul Konerko when our worst hitter is batting one.:scratch:

kgork
08-23-2008, 06:16 PM
Horribly frustrating to watch. A lot of soft hit balls that somehow made it through, not much Vazquez could have done about that.

kevingrt
08-23-2008, 06:16 PM
A lot of stars (*) in this postgame thread. Something bad must have happened.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 06:17 PM
I'm glad I took out my frustration on my remote and computer mouse before I logged on here. I don't want to be labeled a "dark cloud."

I do want to make one point. Toby Hall needs to set up better behind the plate. In that 8th inning, he was setting up on what was the supposed to be the outside corner. Vasquez nailed it twice without Hall even having to budge his mit, but yet the pitch was still 6 inches outside. He ended up walking the hitter and putting a runner on second with no outs.

alohafri
08-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Bartlett might be an ex-twin ******* bitch but if OC gets distracted
by that little league bull****,then he needs to ****ing get over it and handle
the business of playing a major league SS.

Post of the day!

JB98
08-23-2008, 06:18 PM
Vintage Vazquez. Goes from zero to a 'complete meltdown' when things aren't going his way in 3.7 seconds.... ****ing around with Gabe Gross in particular was absolutely inexcusable.

Which is not to say that umpiring in the 8th wasn't awful because it was. There isn't another good veteran pitcher that would be squeezed the way Vazquez was especially on Gabe ****ing Gross who hasn't earned that kind of benefit of the doubt from umpires. In the meantime, Shingo Bradford and Dan Wheeler were getting everything called for strikes up, down, in, out.

We're almost in Septmeber and Matt Thornton still hasn't thrown a slider worth a damn in a big situation, paying the price in the Iwamura at-bat where even a decent slider gets a K. Between him and Dotel losing their feel for off-speed stuff which makes them very predictable now, it's ridiculous why Don Cooper isn't being called to task.

Which brings us to The Choice 2.0 blowing a tailor made DP that effectively decided this game and the series.

Is it too much to ask to score without the aid of a HR once in a while? Jim Thome's bat couldn't be slower right now; if it's the groin that's bothering him again, then sit the **** down and let others players play for a little bit.:mad:

Did Hall ever call for a slider in that AB? I was thinking aloud at that point, wondering whether AJ would have called for one. Iwamura was in protect mode and might have swung over the top of a slider, if Thornton and Hall had the gumption to try it.

Jose.Contreras
08-23-2008, 06:18 PM
Jim Thome with 4 K's today. the golden sombrero. Does anyone know Thome's stats this season vs lefties? I'm guessing it's miserable.

pczarapa
08-23-2008, 06:19 PM
A lot of baseball left to be played, keep it together

october23sp
08-23-2008, 06:20 PM
Meanwhile the Twins could get ahold of the biggest division lead for them this season tonight.

alohafri
08-23-2008, 06:22 PM
Pitch count be damned. You could tell that Vazquez was tiring as he went along.

That is why I think the pitch count is one of the most overrated "stats" in baseball. Watch the pitcher. A good pitching coach can tell if he is getting tired whether he has thrown 50 pitches, or 130.

october23sp
08-23-2008, 06:22 PM
A lot of baseball left to be played, keep it together

Sorry to seem like someone who bitches a lot but the Twins don't seem to lose ever and there isn't a whole lot of baseball left its Late August and we have about a month to make sure these games don't go as losses. Sure we will lose but we should have won this game.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 06:28 PM
He had 80 pitches going into the 8th. After what the bullpen did last night, I don't blame him at all.

The Sox need to score more than 3 runs for Javi to be successful.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 06:30 PM
Jim Thome with 4 K's today. the golden sombrero. Does anyone know Thome's stats this season vs lefties? I'm guessing it's miserable.

Actually, up until this month, Thome has been our BEST hitter against lefties or just about.

Thome couldn't hit a decent fastball right now if the pitcher told him that's what's coming. As stiff as he looks, his groin is clearly bothering him right now.

But he can't go on DL or sit out a few games here and there because it puts his 2009 option in jeopardy and means that he won't hit that '100 RBI' mark..

JB98
08-23-2008, 06:31 PM
Actually, up until this month, Thome has been our BEST hitter against lefties or just about.

Thome couldn't hit a decent fastball right now if the pitcher told him that's what's coming. As stiff as he looks, His groin is clearly bothering him right now.

But he can't go on DL or sit out a few games here and there because it puts his 2009 option in jeopardy and means that he won't hit that '100 RBI' mark..

It would also mean we won't make the playoffs, because we can't count on Konerko or Griffey to pick up Thome's production.

Really, I just thought Thome got overmatched by a really good lefty today.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-23-2008, 06:32 PM
Meanwhile the Twins could get ahold of the biggest division lead for them this season tonight.

For what it's worth,Scioscia closed the clubhouse after last night's
game and let his boys have it.He told them he has seen a lack
of effort and readiness for the last 10 games and that he doesn't
care if they have a 15 game lead or a one game lead that they
need to show up on a game by game basis.Let's see how they
do tonight.I wouldn't want Garland to be the guy we bank on
but we have no choice.That's what happens when you don't
take care of your own ****.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 06:34 PM
Did Hall ever call for a slider in that AB? I was thinking aloud at that point, wondering whether AJ would have called for one. Iwamura was in protect mode and might have swung over the top of a slider, if Thornton and Hall had the gumption to try it.

Same as Jack Cust in Oakland, no way Iwamura hits a good slider from a lefty who's throwing high-90s.

Then again, Matt Thornton hung so many sliders this year, including the game-loser to Gabe Gross in TB... it's gotta be a mental block by now.

The game was lost by umpire squeezing Vazquez repeatedly on Gross and The Choice booting a DP ball. In the majors, in a big pennant game, it's all it takes sometimes.


.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 06:38 PM
It would also mean we won't make the playoffs, because we can't count on Konerko or Griffey to pick up Thome's production.
.

The way a hurt Thome has been swinging a bat this week, anyone is better than him, let alone Griffey or semi-ressurgent Konerko.

Thome's basically hit a couple of HR off hanging breaking balls and made about 20 other outs lately. Pitchers are starting to realize he can't hit a high fastball.

Sox will make the playoffs, don't worry, but Loserball of the last couple of days certainly doesn't make it easier on the fans.

Jose.Contreras
08-23-2008, 06:47 PM
The way a hurt Thome has been swinging a bat this week, anyone is better than him, let alone Griffey or semi-ressurgent Konerko.

Thome's basically hit a couple of HR off hanging breaking balls and made about 20 other outs lately. Pitchers are starting to realize he can't hit a high fastball.

Sox will make the playoffs, don't worry, but Loserball of the last couple of days certainly doesn't make it easier on the fans.


I don't know how you can say that with such nonchalance. There are 3 teams within 1 game of each other. 1 of those teams does not make the playoffs. I don't know how you can simply say "The Sox will make the playoffs, don't worry."

It's an absolute toss-up right now. Actually, I think the Twins are the surest bet at this point...the way they're playing. I think we can beat out Boston for the wild card. But the division I am not as confident in. Mostly due to the Twins excellent play. They don't go away. Of course once the Twinkies are in the playoffs, I think you can knock them out. But they get there 75% of the time it seems.

Lundind1
08-23-2008, 06:54 PM
I am not going to give up on this thing. I am big numbers guy and until I see an E in that column for the Sox, it isn't over. These are just two games. We still have a long road ahead of days just like today. You're under the microscope just that much more in the late days of the season. I am not giving up on this team and neither should anyone else.

This has just been a bonus since last year we were almost E'ed out by this time.

Put it all together again and go 8-2 in our next 10, we can do this. Boston hasn't been doing well either lately. We have a chance to do something that will make us remember this season moreso than just another one. 13-8 so far this month is not bad, esp the chance to win a bunch of games coming up.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 07:00 PM
The Rays just showed the Sox how to play baseball right.
.

I'll say one thing:

Rays were a good example of that Baseball Ingmar Bergman rule I mentioned a while back: avoid the big inning. They bended but did not breaked for most of Friday and Saturday games. They waited for that window to crack open just a bit...

Rays were missing their 3 best hitters - Longoria, Crawford & Upton (who played but hasn't been the same hitter in weeks.)

ohiosoxfan
08-23-2008, 07:02 PM
Who knew that the TB on their hat stood for Ted Barrett???:?:

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 07:04 PM
I do want to make one point. Toby Hall needs to set up better behind the plate. In that 8th inning, he was setting up on what was the supposed to be the outside corner. Vasquez nailed it twice without Hall even having to budge his mit, but yet the pitch was still 6 inches outside. He ended up walking the hitter and putting a runner on second with no outs.

Toby Hall had a very nice start to the season but he's been pretty useless since then and above is another reason why.

I don't want him back. Get me a Brian Schneider or some other defense-fist guy to back AJ.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 07:05 PM
They waited for that window to crack open just a bit...


... and shined in a little Ray of sunshine.

Frankfan4life
08-23-2008, 07:08 PM
given the circumstances of todays game let's break down why this is our worst loss of '08.

It's late September, 1/2 game out of first, playing a first place ballclub, having a perfect game through 5 and 2/3, having a 2-0 lead, having a 3-1 lead in the 8th, and following yesterday's blown game...............I'd say this was the worst loss of our season up to this point. AGONY:(:Let me agree with you here. I just got back from the game and I AM PISSED OFF!!!!!! I would rather not have an almost no-hitter because as soon as the other team gets the first hit, the pitcher usually falls apart. To top it off, I was sitting behind a bunch of Rays fans who were cheering every walk and basehit Javy and Thornton gave up in the eighth.

Championship-caliber pitchers do not consistently blow leads (especially in their home ballpark) it's as simple as that. Vazquez and Thornton were a HUGE let down. Anytime Ozzie puts Dotel or Thornton in to pitch in a close game, I'm turning the game off.

Oh, and by the way, Congratulations Thome on your most recent Golden Sombrero. :mad: Only bright spots: JD and DJ. I appreciate their effort.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 07:11 PM
That is why I think the pitch count is one of the most overrated "stats" in baseball. Watch the pitcher. A good pitching coach can tell if he is getting tired whether he has thrown 50 pitches, or 130.



Ozzie screwed up numerous Danks starts in particular, but in all fairness, I can't really blame Oz for today because Vazquez was still, what, around 80 pitches and unlike Danks still was throwing decent off-speed stuff and not missing over the heart of the plate after 7 innnigs.

Unlike say Danks, he's a veteran pitcher who will be starting game 1 or game 2 of ALDS, so he needs to be able to pitch over bloop hits and bad umpiring. He couldn't, and Thornton/Cabrera failed to pick Javy up, simple as that.

EuroSox35
08-23-2008, 07:15 PM
Like I said last night, TB fans are lucky to have a manager who knows when to pull a pitcher. I also have to crap on Ozzie [thought he had a terrible game today] for his starting lineup, seemed like a great opportunity to have both Anderson and Swisher start.

Tough luck for Vazquez, Kazmir got a much better strike zone the entire game, I usually never whine about umpires but this tape should be sent to the league for review. And yes, that stuff does matter, one pitch in a sequence can change an entire game, let alone an atbat, and the Sox had it working against them twice (unfavorable for Javy, favorable for Kazmir)

Frankfan4life
08-23-2008, 07:20 PM
Vintage Vazquez. Goes from zero to a 'complete meltdown' when things aren't going his way in 3.7 seconds.... ****ing around with Gabe Gross in particular was absolutely inexcusable.

Which is not to say that umpiring in the 8th wasn't awful because it was. There isn't another good veteran pitcher that would be squeezed the way Vazquez was especially on Gabe ****ing Gross who hasn't earned that kind of benefit of the doubt from umpires. In the meantime, Shingo Bradford and Dan Wheeler were getting everything called for strikes up, down, in, out.

We're almost in Septmeber and Matt Thornton still hasn't thrown a slider worth a damn in a big situation, paying the price in the Iwamura at-bat where even a decent slider gets a K. Between him and Dotel losing their feel for off-speed stuff which makes them very predictable now, it's ridiculous why Don Cooper isn't being called to task.

Which brings us to The Choice 2.0 blowing a tailor made DP that effectively decided this game and the series.

Is it too much to ask to score without the aid of a HR once in a while? Jim Thome's bat couldn't be slower right now; if it's the groin that's bothering him again, then sit the **** down and let others players play for a little bit.:mad:Great post. I was so angry at the home plate umpire, I wanted to throw something at him. His ball/strike calls absolutely favored the Rays. Who knows, maybe MLB wants a Rays/cubs World Series.

kittle42
08-23-2008, 07:26 PM
Great post. I was so angry at the home plate umpire, I wanted to throw something at him. His ball/strike calls absolutely favored the Rays. Who knows, maybe MLB wants a Rays/cubs World Series.

Grow up, all of you umpiring whiners.

Frankfan4life
08-23-2008, 07:28 PM
Grow up, all of you umpiring whiners.Why single me out?? :scratch: I don't generally complain about the umpiring. I just agreed it was bad. Because it was.

kevingrt
08-23-2008, 07:28 PM
Grow up, all of you umpiring whiners.

You have to be harsher next time kittle. Mods anyway we can add complaining about umpiring when unwarranted to the credentials for being temporarily banned?

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 07:39 PM
Why single me out?? :scratch: I don't generally complain about the umpiring. I just agreed it was bad. Because it was.

Ditto. I believe it's the first time I've complained about the umps in my 400+ posts. (Usually I have no problem blaming players or Ozzie when they deserve it).

In fact, the one beef I've always had with The Hawk is his incessant umpire-bashing, that's both unbecoming for a ML broadcaster and, more importantly, could create ump grudges that could haunt the team in the long run...

This is major leagues. In a tight pennant race game of equals, umpiring can be the all-important X-factor more often than people realize. As someone else mentioned, the difference between 0-1 and 1-0 on Navarro, for example, is big...

Ted Barrett squeezing the hell out of Vazquez in the 8th, while giving Rays relievers corners, played a huge role in changing the very complexion of AB/inning/game.

You can blame Vazquez, Thornton, Thome and The Choice: The Sequel for today's loss - and you will be correct. But to discount the role ineffectual umpiring played in contributing to the defeat, IMO, is pure laziness.

There is a reason why you didn't see Rays hitters OR pitchers so much as look back at Ted Barrett even when they were trailing, which is uncharacteristic.

WhiteSox5187
08-23-2008, 07:40 PM
Thank God we didn't give up anything to acquire Chad Bradford.

The guy is useless and we couldn't have used him.
Yea but we got Junior!

SOXfnNlansing
08-23-2008, 07:56 PM
My feelings from the game is that after the perfect game/shut out was over, Ozzie brought him out the next inning. Should have brought in someone else imo.

The next problem was bringing in Thornton with the bases loaded. I was commenting to a guy sitting behind me that he always walks the 1st guy just like Howry used to do. Bammo, walk, 'hit' and double........... game over.

kittle42
08-23-2008, 08:12 PM
You have to be harsher next time kittle. Mods anyway we can add complaining about umpiring when unwarranted to the credentials for being temporarily banned?

As soon as we can add BA debates. :cool:

kittle42
08-23-2008, 08:12 PM
Why single me out?? :scratch: I don't generally complain about the umpiring. I just agreed it was bad. Because it was.

I said, "all." :D:

turners56
08-23-2008, 08:13 PM
Grow up, all of you umpiring whiners.

Yes, let's make the game unfair just for the human factor. I hate the mindset of whatever an umpire does wrong should be ignored and it's always the team's fault.

captain54
08-23-2008, 08:48 PM
I hate the mindset of whatever an umpire does wrong should be ignored and it's always the team's fault.

You're right....the umpire should be blamed for 1-5 in the order striking out 9 times and going hitless (except for Dye)...

spiffie
08-23-2008, 09:02 PM
Ondafarm, who for those of you who are not aware was in fact a catcher in the Japanese leagues, used to talk about how there were certain games that umpires were told who was supposed to win, and everyone knew that and acted accordingly.

I wonder if he would have thought this one of those games?

gobears1987
08-23-2008, 09:06 PM
I rarely blame Ozzie after a loss. This is an exception. Even though Thornton was totally useless, Guillen left Vazquez in too long.
And I bet you blamed Ozzie for having too short a leash with Vazquez during that first game against the Cubs.

gobears1987
08-23-2008, 09:11 PM
Being at the game, I will tell you exactly what happened to Vazquez.

For 5+ innings he was pitching out of the wind-up with no need to throw out of the stretch. After the first hit, he went to the stretch and lost control of his location. He just couldn't adjust and gave up another hit which scored the first run.

The same thing happened in the 8th. He allowed the first guy on and then had issues going out of the stretch.

It has happened a lot to other pitchers. They settle into a routine out of the wind-up and then as soon as they have to get out of it their location fails.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 09:20 PM
That is why I think the pitch count is one of the most overrated "stats" in baseball. Watch the pitcher. A good pitching coach can tell if he is getting tired whether he has thrown 50 pitches, or 130.

You statement then supports keeping Javi in.

russ99
08-23-2008, 09:35 PM
You can blame the last two losses on Ozzie, the relievers, and the starters if you want, but I'm blaming the hitters. They're homer-happy again. What happened to hitting the ball the other way and moving up runners? All I see from the 3 to 7 in the lineup (Alexei too) are power swings, often at balls out of the zone - and lots of foul and infield pop-ups.

It's one thing to hit vs. the Mariners and Royals, and another in a tense pennant-race game against a first place team. Maybe the guys are squeezing the bats too hard and Ozzie need to get them to relax??

This does not bode well for the playoffs... And yes, I still think we're going there.

turners56
08-23-2008, 10:17 PM
You're right....the umpire should be blamed for 1-5 in the order striking out 9 times and going hitless (except for Dye)...

Is it Swisher's fault that he ended up striking out on a terrible pitch though?

captain54
08-23-2008, 10:30 PM
Is it Swisher's fault that he ended up striking out on a terrible pitch though?


you're talking about one pitch...

I'm talking about 20 something AB's.....

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 10:31 PM
Being at the game, I will tell you exactly what happened to Vazquez.

For 5+ innings he was pitching out of the wind-up with no need to throw out of the stretch. After the first hit, he went to the stretch and lost control of his location. He just couldn't adjust and gave up another hit which scored the first run.

The same thing happened in the 8th. He allowed the first guy on and then had issues going out of the stretch.

It has happened a lot to other pitchers. They settle into a routine out of the wind-up and then as soon as they have to get out of it their location fails.

Very good post. There is a thread in Talking Baseball called "NL MVP" where we talked about that very thing - ie, how important it is to put a runner on base even if he's not terribly fleet of foot....

With Vazquez, it's not just pitching out of the stretch. It's also the added psychological effect when his comfort zone is taken away, when his margin-for-error is reduced: before long he's pulling his usual "oh here we go again!" half-tantrum, half-pity party routine whenever things don't go his way, such as 2-strike duck snort, bad ump call, fielding mistake, etc.

I still don't know how Javy managed to lose the lead today against Rays' B line-up... or, for that matter, that game against AAA Oakland in July where he struck out 7 of the first 8 batters faced and had "no-hit" stuff...

jabrch
08-23-2008, 10:38 PM
I can feel the Playoffs slipping through our fingers.

Why am I not surprised to see this sort of stuff?

We are still in the drivers seat - we control our own destiny. Nothing is slipping anywhere.

Viva Medias B's
08-23-2008, 10:39 PM
And I bet you blamed Ozzie for having too short a leash with Vazquez during that first game against the Cubs.

I don't recall that. If you can find my postgame comments about that particular game, please post them. If I said what you claim I said, I'll gladly admit responsibility for it.

Look! I would have taken my chances with the middle relief, as mediocre as it has recently been, and pulled Javy earlier than Ozzie did.

Save McCuddy's
08-23-2008, 10:49 PM
Why am I not surprised to see this sort of stuff?

We are still in the drivers seat - we control our own destiny. Nothing is slipping anywhere.

Amen. It's fair to question a number of things about this team's playoff potential just as it was fair to ask those questions in March. However, if there's one thing that this team has proved beyond question is that they respond to their setbacks well -- eventually. The Sox have answered each bell thus far, and I trust that they'll answer these last two as well.

PeteWard
08-23-2008, 11:00 PM
Twins Lose! :bandance:

BigP50
08-23-2008, 11:27 PM
it's freakin ridiculous when **** like this happens.


A perfect game going into the 6th and we lose

Mercy!

Ziggy S
08-23-2008, 11:47 PM
This game was very similar to Danks' last start vs. the Red Sahx.

oeo
08-24-2008, 12:10 AM
Long ball or nothing will never get in done in the playoffs. Two VERY bad late losses.

I knew a couple of losses would start this bull**** talk. You haven't been watching if you think they've been just hitting the long ball. They've been spraying the ball all over the place. Yeah, they've hit a lot of dingers, but that's not all they've been doing.

We've ran into good pitching, and should have won both games...if only our bullpen could hold a ****ing lead.

oeo
08-24-2008, 12:15 AM
Good point. Tough pitcher they faced, but if you're gonna win, you have to beat good pitching. I think they could've done it if they'd only have a bit more plate discipline. But that's an ongoing theme, they have what they have at this point, so it's live or die with these guys. The last two games here ... not good.

I honestly can't believe I'm reading this. Our bullpen needs to hold leads...they didn't do it. Javy and the offense gave the bullpen the lead, and they blew it. Same as on Friday.

Definitely not the offense's fault. We had Kazmir out after 6 innings, the game should have been won.

Being at the game, I will tell you exactly what happened to Vazquez.

For 5+ innings he was pitching out of the wind-up with no need to throw out of the stretch. After the first hit, he went to the stretch and lost control of his location. He just couldn't adjust and gave up another hit which scored the first run.

The same thing happened in the 8th. He allowed the first guy on and then had issues going out of the stretch.

It has happened a lot to other pitchers. They settle into a routine out of the wind-up and then as soon as they have to get out of it their location fails.

I saw a bunch of cheap singles. :dunno:

The Rays remind me an awful lot of the Twins. They don't hit crap all game, their pitching keeps them in it, then bam, they string together a few lucky hits and they've got the lead. It's so damn frustrating, especially last night when we were consistently lining out and couldn't find a hole with a damn thing.

oeo
08-24-2008, 12:21 AM
Why am I not surprised to see this sort of stuff?

We are still in the drivers seat - we control our own destiny. Nothing is slipping anywhere.

This is the same guy that said it was all over a few weeks ago. He overreacts with the best of them. He better be careful, his ups and downs cannot be good for his heart.

IronFisk
08-24-2008, 01:46 AM
Painful game to be sure. At this point, I would've had Javy pitch out of that jam in the 8th - couldn't of done worse than Thornton and he was under 100 pitches. Of course Ozzie would have been hanged too...

The bullpen is the prime target. Against top teams you have to slam the door - we're not. If they can't figure this out soon, we are toast. I'm not blaming anyone but them.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 06:55 AM
It's worth repeating that Orlando Cabrera screwed the pooch yesterday.

I really wish we hadn't traded Garland to get him.

southside rocks
08-24-2008, 07:58 AM
It's worth repeating that Orlando Cabrera screwed the pooch yesterday.

I really wish we hadn't traded Garland to get him.

I guess I agree, because I'm hugely unimpressed with Cabrera's play this year, but did you see Garland last night? He didn't have a good day either, to put it mildly. (He got pulled in the 5th after going into the inning with a 6-1 lead and then giving up 4 runs without getting an out -- one of his classic meltdowns that I for one remember too well from his days with the Sox.)

I'm not sure the Sox would be better off if that trade hadn't got done -- in fact, I'm pretty sure I'm glad that Johnny Hollywood is where he belongs, in southern CA. I guess I'd rather they'd gotten someone other than OC for him, though.

LITTLE NELL
08-24-2008, 09:42 AM
Rays showing why they're the best in baseball. They use every, last one of those 27 outs while we see fit to mainly use 22/23.
Was at the game, key at bat was Akis when he fouled off pitch after pitch and finally got his walk with the bases loaded.
If we got him out we may have gotten out of the inning.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-24-2008, 09:45 AM
The bullpen collectively needs to do what the starters did collectively: Start shutting people down. After the starters went through that bad phase from before the break till 3 weeks after the break, they've pitched very well.

The pen is going to have to get their roles defined and come in and do the job. The biggest issue is who pitches the 8th. I think they should use Carrasco in that role and push Dotel back into the 7th again, where he seems more comfortable.

oeo
08-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Was at the game, key at bat was Akis when he fouled off pitch after pitch and finally got his walk with the bases loaded.
If we got him out we may have gotten out of the inning.

And the problem: Thornton got it to a full count. That never should have happened. If he was going to throw something way out of the zone to try to get him to chase, why the hell didn't he go with his slider on the outer half? He was biting on every fastball out there, and was late on every last one of them. Instead he throws a fastball way up.

I know everyone is on a big hate-athon of Dotel right now, but I would have rather seen him last night in that situation.

alohafri
08-24-2008, 10:09 AM
You statement then supports keeping Javi in.

No it doesn't. If he was tiring, he needed to be taken out. A pitching coach should be able to tell if a pitcher, especially a starter is tiring mentally or physically.

alohafri
08-24-2008, 10:14 AM
It's worth repeating that Orlando Cabrera screwed the pooch yesterday.

I really wish we hadn't traded Garland to get him.

I thought it was a good trade at the time. Many people realized that Juan Uribe couldn't be our everyday shortstop again, that we had no short stop to take his place, and that Garland was likely to walk at the end of his contract.

I don't see the Sox offering Cabrera a contract at the end of the season. Someone referred to him as "The Choice" Cabrera, comparing him with our favorite whipping boy, Clayton. I think it is fairly accurate, although if he wasn't with the Sox, I might not have noticed it.

oeo
08-24-2008, 10:15 AM
No it doesn't. If he was tiring, he needed to be taken out. A pitching coach should be able to tell if a pitcher, especially a starter is tiring mentally or physically.


And with the heat and the perfect game, it was likely that he was tired both physically and mentally.

I don't disagree with Ozzie's move to take him out. Thornton is just a ****ing moron, though. Sorry, needed to be said. Bases loaded, nobody out...you need to come in ready to get outs. Throw strikes, get an out. That's your job, get one out...if you can get two, great, but get the one whether by strikeout, fielder's choice, or sac fly. Don't screw around and put yourself into a full count...

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 10:18 AM
It's worth repeating that Orlando Cabrera screwed the pooch yesterday.

I really wish we hadn't traded Garland to get him.
Oh please. Garland has been below average this season and would have walked away anyway. At least with Cabrera we get two draft picks.

oeo
08-24-2008, 10:21 AM
Oh please. Garland has been below average this season and would have walked away anyway. At least with Cabrera we get two draft picks.

Garland is doing now what he's done his entire career. He's not a good pitcher...he's an innings eater. That's it and that's all. People got so wrapped up in his two 18 win seasons...2005 was a career year, while in 2006 he was the beneficiary of one of the better offenses in baseball.

Kenny obviously made the right move to trade Garland with Floyd's success. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Sure, Garland would be nice to have right now, but I didn't have that opinion until Contreras went down for the season.

And as much as I really haven't liked Cabrera's play, we still wouldn't be where we're at without him.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Garland is doing now what he's done his entire career. He's not a good pitcher...he's an innings eater. That's it and that's all. People got so wrapped up in his two 18 win seasons...2005 was a career year, while in 2006 he was the beneficiary of one of the better offenses in baseball.

Kenny obviously made the right move to trade Garland with Floyd's success. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Sure, Garland would be nice to have right now, but I didn't have that opinion until Contreras went down for the season.

And as much as I really haven't liked Cabrera's play, we still wouldn't be where we're at without him.

I didn't like the trade when it was made. I generally don't like trading away starting pitching. If you have six starting pitchers, put the "worst" of those six in your bullpen as the long man. You can never have too much starting pitching: The Sox had six starters in 2006 and it still wasn't enough.

When the trade was made, although I didn't like it, I expected more out of Cabrera. He's been a profound disappointment. I didn't expect (but I would have liked) a .300 average. But I did expect .285, Gold Glove-caliber defense, and fewer errors in the field and on the basepaths. He's given us exactly none of those things; instead we've gotten a lower average, worse defense, more errors, more baserunning gaffes, more complaints about the weather and more complaints about the official scorer. I won't miss him when he's gone.

My criticism of the Garland-Cabrera deal (as well as the Swisher and Griffey deals) does not negate the fact that (or my belief that) the Alexei and TCQ deals were masterstrokes.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:12 PM
I didn't like the trade when it was made. I generally don't like trading away starting pitching. If you have six starting pitchers, put the "worst" of those six in your bullpen as the long man. You can never have too much starting pitching: The Sox had six starters in 2006 and it still wasn't enough.

When the trade was made, although I didn't like it, I expected more out of Cabrera. He's been a profound disappointment. I didn't expect (but I would have liked) a .300 average. But I did expect .285, Gold Glove-caliber defense, and fewer errors in the field and on the basepaths. He's given us exactly none of those things; instead we've gotten a lower average, worse defense, more errors, more baserunning gaffes, more complaints about the weather and more complaints about the official scorer. I won't miss him when he's gone.

My criticism of the Garland-Cabrera deal (as well as the Swisher and Griffey deals) does not negate the fact that (or my belief that) the Alexei and TCQ deals were masterstrokes.
Swisher has been a masterstroke as well, like it or not. Griffey was had for absolutely nothing.

Garland just didn't have that much value. Who knows where we'd be if Garland was here and Floyd would have been the long man.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Swisher has been a masterstroke as well, like it or not. Griffey was had for absolutely nothing.

Garland just didn't have that much value. Who knows where we'd be if Garland was here and Floyd would have been the long man.

Swisher has been better since June 1, but he was awful in April and May.

Sweeney is about the same as an outfielder as Swisher, but hits for better average and has done so in a pitchers' park. I'd rather have Sweeney than Swisher. Gio and DLS could have been packaged to get legitimate relief help.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:26 PM
Swisher has been better since June 1, but he was awful in April and May.

Sweeney is about the same as an outfielder as Swisher, but hits for better average and has done so in a pitchers' park. I'd rather have Sweeney than Swisher. Gio and DLS could have been packaged to get legitimate relief help.
Oh for ****'s sake. Sweeney is putting up a .711 OPS. That's brutal -- no matter what park it is in. Swisher's been more than "better since June 1st" -- he's been amazing to the tune of a +.900 OPS. Guys with his skill set don't grow on trees.

He had an awfully unlucky April and May. On the flip side, this is the first month where Sweeney's luck is starting to even out.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:36 PM
I guess taking Sweeney over Swisher makes sense, considering you wanted to replace Thome with Pierre back in May.

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2008, 12:48 PM
Oh for ****'s sake. Sweeney is putting up a .711 OPS. That's brutal -- no matter what park it is in. Swisher's been more than "better since June 1st" -- he's been amazing to the tune of a +.900 OPS. Guys with his skill set don't grow on trees.

He had an awfully unlucky April and May. On the flip side, this is the first month where Sweeney's luck is starting to even out.
The fact of the matter is while Swisher is a very nice player and an incredibly nice guy, he's still another slow one dimensional power hitter. We have enough of those as it is. We need a guy who is capable of stealing bases and has a high OBP. I don't give a **** what his OPS is which is the most pointless stat in the history of baseball. A complete fantasy stat. What a load of ****.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:51 PM
The fact of the matter is while Swisher is a very nice player and an incredibly nice guy, he's still another slow one dimensional power hitter. We have enough of those as it is. We need a guy who is capable of stealing bases and has a high OBP. I don't give a **** what his OPS is which is the most pointless stat in the history of baseball. A complete fantasy stat. What a load of ****.
Really? OPS is a complete fantasy stat? OBP + SLG% = complete fantasy.

Okay.

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2008, 12:52 PM
And with the heat and the perfect game, it was likely that he was tired both physically and mentally.

I don't disagree with Ozzie's move to take him out. Thornton is just a ****ing moron, though. Sorry, needed to be said. Bases loaded, nobody out...you need to come in ready to get outs. Throw strikes, get an out. That's your job, get one out...if you can get two, great, but get the one whether by strikeout, fielder's choice, or sac fly. Don't screw around and put yourself into a full count...
I don't know if it's that Thornton is a moron or is just incapable of throwing strikes in clutch situations. I'm unnerved by the fact we seem to have two pitchers who really wilt when the pressure is on (Dotel and Thornton). Maybe it's just that they are out of their favored roles with Linebrink being gone...man do we miss him.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 12:55 PM
Oh for ****'s sake. Sweeney is putting up a .711 OPS. That's brutal -- no matter what park it is in. Swisher's been more than "better since June 1st" -- he's been amazing to the tune of a +.900 OPS. Guys with his skill set don't grow on trees.

He had an awfully unlucky April and May. On the flip side, this is the first month where Sweeney's luck is starting to even out.

I guess taking Sweeney over Swisher makes sense, considering you wanted to replace Thome with Pierre back in May.

OK, fine. Swisher had a great June and is having a great August. I'd rather see him produce more steadily, and have him at a corner spot so that a superior defender could play CF. But right now there's too much of a logjam - Dye and TCQ are fantastic and PK finally is producing this month. Meanwhile, the bullpen (other than Jenks) is despicable.

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2008, 12:57 PM
Really? OPS is a complete fantasy stat? OBP + SLG% = complete fantasy.

Okay.
It is, you're the guy bitching that Roberts has a low OPS, well yea, that's because he has a SLG% of .400 something but gets on base at a .350 clip. His role on a team isn't to mash the hell out of the ball but it's to get on base. If he gets nothing but singles but still gets on at a .350 clip he's worth something to a team. But the OPS stat would make people say "Ah, he's worthless he has an OPS of .600," BUT HE'S GETTING ON AT A .370 CLIP! I don't give a damn how many XBHs my leadoff guy has, especially when he can turn a single into a double with a stolen base and can score from first on a double. OPS is a stat that fantasy owners look at so they can get a couple of more HRs out of their top spots, but really when you're building a major league club, ya know one that is supposed to actually win games not accumulate points, you'd take a guy who's got an OPS of 700 something when he's getting on base at .400 clip and stealing fifty plus bases a year.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:58 PM
OK, fine. Swisher had a great June and is having a great August. I'd rather see him produce more steadily, and have him at a corner spot so that a superior defender could play CF. But right now there's too much of a logjam - Dye and TCQ are fantastic and PK finally is producing this month. Meanwhile, the bullpen (other than Jenks) is despicable.
You are absolutely right. The bullpen has been brutal.

Unfortunately the 25 man roster is victimized by the organization's inability to put together a decent environment for pitching.

Craig Grebeck
08-24-2008, 12:59 PM
It is, you're the guy bitching that Roberts has a low OPS, well yea, that's because he has a SLG% of .400 something but gets on base at a .350 clip. His role on a team isn't to mash the hell out of the ball but it's to get on base. If he gets nothing but singles but still gets on at a .350 clip he's worth something to a team. But the OPS stat would make people say "Ah, he's worthless he has an OPS of .600," BUT HE'S GETTING ON AT A .370 CLIP! I don't give a damn how many XBHs my leadoff guy has, especially when he can turn a single into a double with a stolen base and can score from first on a double. OPS is a stat that fantasy owners look at so they can get a couple of more HRs out of their top spots, but really when you're building a major league club, ya know one that is supposed to actually win games not accumulate points, you'd take a guy who's got an OPS of 700 something when he's getting on base at .400 clip and stealing fifty plus bases a year.
Who is Roberts? And what are you talking about?

If you can show me a guy who gets on base in 40% of his plate appearances and sports a .700 OPS and can somehow sustain such fluky numbers, I'll show you a bird that can play a flute.

RockJock07
08-24-2008, 01:01 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't understand why we traded for Cabrera?

Because until 2 weeks ago, Uribe blew ass.

RockJock07
08-24-2008, 01:05 PM
Swisher has been a masterstroke as well, like it or not. Griffey was had for absolutely nothing.

Garland just didn't have that much value. Who knows where we'd be if Garland was here and Floyd would have been the long man.

Swisher is young enough that he will rebound and not hit .230 next season and is heating up of late. Griffey was had for nothing and has not been in a playoff race in like the last 7 seasons, he will start raking.

Overall I like all the moves made by kenny, I can honestly say that they have all worked out this season so far.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 01:06 PM
You are absolutely right. The bullpen has been brutal.

Unfortunately the 25 man roster is victimized by the organization's inability to put together a decent environment for pitching.

And in part that's a function of continually trading away the very limited supply of any desirable prospects they have developed for more one-dimensional hitters instead of using them for pitchers.

I know I rip on Konerko a lot, but he's symbolic of this organization's attitude: swing for the fences. For better or worse, Swisher, Thome, Griffey and Crede are much the same at this point in their respective careers. (Quentin and Dye are less slump-prone, generally more consistent than the other four, and also hit a lot of doubles and run a little better).

Folks say that with short fences and small gaps you need hitters who hit the ball out of the park. But I'd rather have a few consistent line drive hitters because at the Cell their line drives would clear the fences anyway. But most importantly, I'd like more emphasis and more resources spent on the rotation and the bullpen, to prevent opposing teams from scoring runs in our bandbox ballpark. And having great defense helps the pitchers, too.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2008, 01:08 PM
Overall I like all the moves made by kenny, I can honestly say that they have all worked out this season so far.

Cabrera has been a colossal disappointment.

And beyond Cabrera's disappointing performance, that deal looks even worse in the context of Contreras getting hurt and not having a proven fifth starter, and as a result overusing and overextending the Linebrink-deprived bullpen.

SBSoxFan
08-24-2008, 02:10 PM
Cabrera has been a colossal disappointment.

And beyond Cabrera's disappointing performance, that deal looks even worse in the context of Contreras getting hurt and not having a proven fifth starter, and as a result overusing and overextending the Linebrink-deprived bullpen.

Frater, I think you don't make a move based on the thought that you might lose a player for several months. Without hindsight, who was going to be your shortstop?

I don't think Cabrera's been disappointing, but I think he hasn't been as good as advertised. He does seem to make bad plays / poor decisions at big moments. Not only last night, but remember the first series in Cleveland when he was called out for interference which prevented the tying run from scoring?

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2008, 03:28 PM
And in part that's a function of continually trading away the very limited supply of any desirable prospects they have developed for more one-dimensional hitters instead of using them for pitchers.

I know I rip on Konerko a lot, but he's symbolic of this organization's attitude: swing for the fences. For better or worse, Swisher, Thome, Griffey and Crede are much the same at this point in their respective careers. (Quentin and Dye are less slump-prone, generally more consistent than the other four, and also hit a lot of doubles and run a little better).

Folks say that with short fences and small gaps you need hitters who hit the ball out of the park. But I'd rather have a few consistent line drive hitters because at the Cell their line drives would clear the fences anyway. But most importantly, I'd like more emphasis and more resources spent on the rotation and the bullpen, to prevent opposing teams from scoring runs in our bandbox ballpark. And having great defense helps the pitchers, too.
Konerko (with the exception of the past two years) usually hits for a pretty high average though. It's not like he's Dave Kingman

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 06:19 PM
. But the OPS stat would make people say "Ah, he's worthless he has an OPS of .600," BUT HE'S GETTING ON AT A .370 CLIP! .

The 3 primary responsibiliies of # 1-2 hitters in a playoff-caliber line-up, are as follows:

1) get on base
2) if that fails, go to plan B and get on base
3) and if that doesn't work either, then... just get on base.

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2008, 10:57 PM
The 3 primary responsibiliies of # 1-2 hitters in a playoff-caliber line-up, are as follows:

1) get on base
2) if that fails, go to plan B and get on base
3) and if that doesn't work either, then... just get on base.
I'm going to add one thing to that list: make things happen. If you got leadoff guy with speed, he can alter a pitcher's game plan just by getting on, that means you'll see more fastballs. While Swish was getting on as a leadoff guy, his lack of speed hurt because the pitcher didn't really seem to care that he was on, unless it was with a double. But if he walked, the pitcher seemed to figure "Well, he's not likely to steal, I'll just see if I can get OC to ground out here..." Where as with a guy like Pods the pitcher would think "Oh Christ, he might be on second here in a bit," and he would keep looking over to him trying to make sure he was close, this would result in more fastballs that Iguchi could take the other way or hit hard and result in more walks and the occasional wild pitch.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 11:19 PM
I'm going to add one thing to that list: make things happen


If they are able to do at a very high rate of efficiency, sure.

Otherwise, I'd just as soon leave all that "making sure" to the likes of Pujols, Big Poppy or Quentin who follow the lead-off hitter(s), and who I've no doubt would know just what to do with those ensuing get-me-over meatballs.