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View Full Version : *Official* Missed Opportunities 8/22/08 Postgame Thread


Viva Medias B's
08-22-2008, 11:31 PM
Discuss.

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:32 PM
Discuss.

more like "cuss"

Harry Potter
08-22-2008, 11:33 PM
not sure who looked/looks more uninspired, us tonite or the Angels the first 17 innings of their series.

*digests more Tums, hoping we can figure out how to hit Kazmir tomorrow*

tstrike2000
08-22-2008, 11:33 PM
Offense and Danks did just enough tonight. Unfortunately, the bullpen doesn't follow suit. Go get em tomorrow.

williepotatoes
08-22-2008, 11:34 PM
The late inning bullpen implosion made me forget about all the early inning LOBs and GIDPs. An all around lousy game methinks.

Hendu
08-22-2008, 11:34 PM
Too many left on base at the beginning, then the bullpen fell apart. Not much more to say. Have to play a lot better tomorrow.

Harry Potter
08-22-2008, 11:35 PM
4-0 Twins

Joe Saunders pitching more like Warner Saunders tonite :angry:

JB98
08-22-2008, 11:37 PM
The Sox stunk in all facets tonight. It happens. Unfortunately, a bad game right now earns you a trip to second place.

ndgt10
08-22-2008, 11:38 PM
I hate to admit it but I think the Rays are vastly superior to the whitesox, imo. They just play fundamentally sound, aggressive baseball and think that they are never out of the game. Its going to be either the Angels or these Rays representing the AL in the series. At least I see both of those teams giving the NL winner all it can handle.

thomas35forever
08-22-2008, 11:40 PM
4-0 Twins

Joe Saunders pitching more like Warner Saunders tonite :angry:
Second place, here we come!

cheezheadsoxfan
08-22-2008, 11:40 PM
I think what I'm most pissed about is hearing about Dotel smirking when leaving the field. Anderson grinned once after misjudging a fly ball and Ozzie went balistic. Now he's on the radio defending Dotel.:angry:

LongLiveFisk
08-22-2008, 11:40 PM
Losing, especially on Elvis Night, always sucks!!

Go get 'em tomorrow, guys. 2 out of 3 is still a possibility. :cool:

Madscout
08-22-2008, 11:40 PM
I hate the Twins. They flat out should have lost last night, but they get that little thing that they need in a dropped ball by Hunter, and boom, ballgame.

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:41 PM
not sure who looked/looks more uninspired, us tonite or the Angels the first 17 innings of their series.

*digests more Tums, hoping we can figure out how to hit Kazmir tomorrow*

I'm sure Saunders wanted to put off getting his 15th win at least another start.

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 11:44 PM
Discuss.

What's there to discuss:

Thoroughly outplayed and outmanaged in our house by a short-handed team.

A humbling loss that hightlights some of the uncorrected deficiencies, including over-reliance on HR, which doesn't always come against good pitching.

Dye in particular has been swinging out of his shoes in the clutch lately. It was so nice to see him go oppo for a HR in Oakland, but he's looking tired & in-between lately. Mini-slump.

Ozzie screwed up yet another Danks start by keeping him a few batters too long. Danks's change-up had deserted him for most for the game; he barely wiggled out of trouble for 4 innings, but it caught up with him in the 5th and 6th at which point Ozzie should have let Thornton start the 7th. Couple that with fact that Ozzie was wasting precious outs on stupid bunting and had numerous signs stolen by the Rays... Whatever, he's what he is. Crown his ass.

Since I am rooting for both the Twins and the Rays to keep Red Cubs & Yankees out of the play-offs, this loss doesn't bother me as much.

Better win the next 2, though. :angry:

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:45 PM
I think what I'm most pissed about is hearing about Dotel smirking when leaving the field. Anderson grinned once after misjudging a fly ball and Ozzie went balistic. Now he's on the radio defending Dotel.:angry:

What was he suppose to do? I guess he was suppose to beat up a water cooler or something? I thought this mentality was reserved for Bears fans.

#1swisher
08-22-2008, 11:46 PM
Ozzie tips his hat to Dotel.:scratch: postgame

WhiteSoxBlog
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
The good news is that my time machine works. The bad news is that it took me back to last week in Oakland. :rolleyes:

Harry Potter
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
Denard ****ing Span goes yard, 8-0 middle of 6th. Awesome ****ing awesome

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
I hate to admit it but I think the Rays are vastly superior to the whitesox, imo. They just play fundamentally sound, aggressive baseball and think that they are never out of the game. Its going to be either the Angels or these Rays representing the AL in the series. At least I see both of those teams giving the NL winner all it can handle.

Funny how the Sox seem to lose to fundamentally sound teams.

Frankie5Angels
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
Ozzie tips his hat to Dotel.:scratch: postgame
Ozzie is a joke.

Whitesoxfan23
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
Terrible game tonight. Back in 2nd place. I hate the ******* Twins and all of the stupid people on their team that you haven't ever heard of. Thanks alot Angels. Oh, and Dotel you suck. Danks pitched pretty good, but the pen blew.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2008, 11:49 PM
Hello second place, might as well give the Twins a "W" after that inning they just pulled out....

JB98
08-22-2008, 11:49 PM
The good news is that my time machine works. The bad news is that it took me back to last week in Oakland. :rolleyes:

Dotel is good for one meltdown a week lately. 8/7 vs. Boston, 8/15 vs. Oakland, 8/22 vs. Tampa Bay. We should expect him to screw the pooch against next weekend in Boston.

He's not good, but Ozzie will be loyal to him, I'm sure.

Tragg
08-22-2008, 11:49 PM
I think what I'm most pissed about is hearing about Dotel smirking when leaving the field. Anderson grinned once after misjudging a ball and Ozzie went balistic. Now he's on the radio defending Dotel.:angry: What? Guillen coddling the veteran, while dogging the young player? Noooooo.
It's the same BS - make sure the pitcher pitches the Sox out of the game before relieving him.

DrCrawdad
08-22-2008, 11:51 PM
What's with the Angels committing errors, miscues and just sucking over these two games against the Twins? Care to save some of that Three Stooges Baseball for when the Angels play the Sox? No, Torii will make diving catches and rob a HR against the Sox...

Big Gus
08-22-2008, 11:52 PM
I got the feeling that with the exception of Thornton, the bullpen thought they were still facing Seattle or Kansas City, the way they were throwing.

They were schooled.

Tampa has the whole package and they know how to come through when they are behind.

Good Manager, too.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2008, 11:52 PM
Ozzie - "Hey everyone, my players suck! Dotel is a piece of crap and I just want to say this because I hate him so much. I hope he doesn't suck anymore, but he is just horrible!... Our offence sucks to sometimes, so many players sucked today, let me name a few... Quentin, Dye, Thome, Alexei, Swisher.... I could go on! I hope they hear this so they know how much I hate them!"

Is that what you idiots want Ozzie to say? Suck it up and accept the loss.

Konerko05
08-22-2008, 11:52 PM
I have no problem with Guillen tipping his hat to Dotel. The guy has been a huge asset to our bullpen all year. Opponents are batting less that .200 off him. He also has had some huge strikeouts in key situations.

Dotel is going to give up homeruns. He challenges hitters with a hard fastball. When the hitter makes solid contact that is usually going to be the result. People forget that is exactly how he struck out 76 hitters.

I would be more worried about his arm tiring out late in the season. It seems like hitters are catching up to his fastball much easier. Dotel without his fastball is basically useless. I hope it's just a brief dead arm period.

kruzer31
08-22-2008, 11:53 PM
Terrible game tonight. Back in 2nd place. I hate the ******* Twins and all of the stupid people on their team that you haven't ever heard of. Thanks alot Angels. Oh, and Dotel you suck. Danks pitched pretty good, but the pen blew.


Stop relying on the Angels.......We have to win games. Not rely on other clubs to win this thing for us

Geeeeeeeez

Jeff

cheezheadsoxfan
08-22-2008, 11:53 PM
What was he suppose to do? I guess he was suppose to beat up a water cooler or something? I thought this mentality was reserved for Bears fans.

No, I don't think he needed to beat up anything. I'm not of the school that thinks temper tantrums show "passion". But he could manage not look like blowing another game is a joke.

JB98
08-22-2008, 11:54 PM
I have no problem with Guillen tipping his hat to Dotel. The guy has been a huge asset to our bullpen all year. Opponents are batting less that .200 off him. He also has had some huge strikeouts in key situations.

Dotel is going to give up homeruns. He challenges hitters with a hard fastball. When the hitter makes solid contact that is usually going to be the result. People forget that is exactly how he struck out 76 hitters.

I would be more worried about his arm tiring out late in the season. It seems like hitters are catching up to his fastball much easier. Dotel without his fastball is basically useless. I hope it's just a brief dead arm period.

He needs to be moved out of the eighth inning role until he gets it back.

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:54 PM
What's with the Angels committing errors, miscues and just sucking over these two games against the Twins? Care to save some of that Three Stooges Baseball for when the Angels play the Sox? No, Torii will make diving catches and rob a HR against the Sox...

What's up with the Twin always capitalizing on those mistakes? Someone forgot to tell them it was a road game.

Frankie5Angels
08-22-2008, 11:54 PM
Ozzie - "Hey everyone, my players suck! Dotel is a piece of crap and I just want to say this because I hate him so much. I hope he doesn't suck anymore, but he is just horrible!... Our offence sucks to sometimes, so many players sucked today, let me name a few... Quentin, Dye, Thome, Alexei, Swisher.... I could go on! I hope they hear this so they know how much I hate them!"

Is that what you idiots want Ozzie to say? Suck it up and accept the loss.
The only one he should call out is OD. He is the one that was smirking as he was walking off the field after giving up 3 runs without recording an out. You shouldn't call people idiots for just expressing their opinion.

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 11:56 PM
No, I don't think he needed to beat up anything. I'm not of the school that thinks temper tantrums show "passion". But he could manage not look like blowing another game is a joke.

He didn't. It's just a bunch of Sox fans wearing their Rex Grossman goggles.

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 11:56 PM
Again...

As long as Damaso Dotel keeps failing to bring a QUALITY breaking ball consistently, the more he's going to be pounded like he was in Oakland last Friday and again tonight.

I don't know if he thinks a breaking ball will hurt his arm again, or he simply no longer has a feel for it... Doesn't matter really, ML hitters will punish him for a being a quasi one-pitch pitcher - unless he makes the necessary adjustment.

kruzer31
08-22-2008, 11:57 PM
I dont really know what Ozzie was doing twice in one inning trying to hit and run and letting Madden totally make him look dumb by picking his signs. Once is fine, but twice, we had E.Jackson on the ropes that inning. He was wild, but Ozzie gave that inning away

Oh well, TRY to beat Kazmir tomorrow

J

DrCrawdad
08-22-2008, 11:57 PM
What's up with the Twin always capitalizing on those mistakes? Someone forgot to tell them it was a road game.

Torii is 0-6, BTW too.

kruzer31
08-22-2008, 11:58 PM
" The Rays are who we thought they were..............and we let em off the Hook!!!!!

-Dennis Green

JB98
08-22-2008, 11:58 PM
Torii is 0-6, BTW too.

Wouldn't surprise me if Torii was tanking it intentionally to help his Twin buddies out. The Angels are 15 up. They can afford to drop a few.

gosox3072
08-22-2008, 11:58 PM
Not gonna lie, this one hurts:whiner:

Frankie5Angels
08-22-2008, 11:59 PM
Torii is 0-6, BTW too.
****ing guy helps the twins **** us over whether he is playing for them or not. :angry:

Frankfan4life
08-22-2008, 11:59 PM
Very bad game. So much for momentum. I wasn't expecting a sweep of the Rays but I was hoping we would keep it competitive at least. Oh, well! Let's get the series win and then sweep the O's.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-22-2008, 11:59 PM
The only one he should call out is OD. He is the one that was smirking as he was walking off the field after giving up 3 runs without recording an out. You shouldn't call people idiots for just expressing their opinion.Oh "Dotel sucks! :angry:" is a really fair opinion. :scratch: He left the field probably thinking "I am a fricking idiot!" Ozzie isn't stupid, not talking perfect english doesn't qualify someone as stupid. I am sure Ozzie knows Dotel was pissed at himself. You going to tell me you were never soo pissed you laughed and shook your head? ... I'm sure that was all he was doing.

He shouldn't have smilied regardless tho, but it doesn't really matter.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-22-2008, 11:59 PM
He didn't. It's just a bunch of Sox fans wearing their Rex Grossman goggles.

What does Grossman have to do with Dotel sucking and finding it funny?

Frankie5Angels
08-22-2008, 11:59 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Torii was tanking it intentionally to help his Twin buddies out. The Angels are 15 up. They can afford to drop a few.
JB, you are reading my mind. Maybe Angels would rather see the Twins than the Sox.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:00 AM
Again...

As long as Damaso Dotel keeps failing to bring a QUALITY breaking ball consistently, the more he's going to be pounded like he was in Oakland last Friday and again tonight.

I don't know if he thinks a breaking ball will hurt his arm again, or he simply no longer has a feel for it... Doesn't matter really, ML hitters will punish him for a being a quasi one-pitch pitcher - unless he makes the necessary adjustment.

LOL, I like the nickname. Some of those pitches were perfect for home run derby.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 12:00 AM
Torii is 0-6, BTW too.

Was there anyone who actually wanted that slowly-declining ******* on our team for the kind of money he wanted - other than members of the media?

For that matter, does anyone think that "collision" with Jaime Burke was anything other than a Ty Cobbesque cheap shot?

DrCrawdad
08-23-2008, 12:00 AM
What's up with the Twin always capitalizing on those mistakes? Someone forgot to tell them it was a road game.

The Twins are a solid team. They've 8 runs on the Angels w/o a hit (until just a moment ago) or a RBI from Mauer & Morneau.

#1swisher
08-23-2008, 12:01 AM
I blame chris chelios:D: he jinxed us and the cubs

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:01 AM
Oh "Dotel sucks! :angry:" is a really fair opinion. :scratch: He left the field probably thinking "I am a fricking idiot!" Ozzie isn't stupid, not talking perfect english doesn't qualify someone as stupid. I am sure Ozzie knows Dotel was pissed at himself. You going to tell me you were never soo pissed you laughed and shook your head? ... I'm sure that was all he was doing.
I can't read his mind and neither could you. It just doesn't look to good, giving it up like he did, and then walking off looking in the stands and smirking. That **** don't fly with me at least.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:01 AM
Losing, especially on Elvis Night, always sucks!!

Go get 'em tomorrow, guys. 2 out of 3 is still a possibility. :cool:


**** Elvis Night.

Any loss hurts.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:02 AM
Very bad game. So much for momentum. I wasn't expecting a sweep of the Rays but I was hoping we would keep it competitive at least. Oh, well! Let's get the series win and then sweep the O's.

A sweep would be a bit unrealistic. This game will be forgotten if the Sox take 2-3.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Wouldn't surprise me if Torii was tanking it intentionally to help his Twin buddies out. The Angels are 15 up. They can afford to drop a few.


This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

I hope you are joking.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Ken Hill.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-23-2008, 12:04 AM
I can't read his mind and neither could you. It just doesn't look to good, giving it up like he did, and then walking off looking in the stands and smirking. That **** don't fly with me at least.Nothing I can say about that. Nothing is easier to do besides saying "you can't read minds." But it looks pretty damb obvious he wasn't happy about giving up 3, so I don't think it matters at all.

DrCrawdad
08-23-2008, 12:05 AM
****ing guy helps the twins **** us over whether he is playing for them or not. :angry:

And 4 errors in 2 games for the Angels.

I'm regretting my comments that the Angels are the best team in MLB.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:05 AM
Nothing I can say about that. Nothing is easier to do besides saying "you can't read minds." But it looks pretty damb obvious he wasn't happy about giving up 3, so I don't think it matters at all.
They just showed the replay again, he didn't look to mad to me. Smiling as he was walking in to the dugout looking at the crowd.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:07 AM
And 4 errors in 2 games for the Angels.

I'm regretting my comments that the Angels are the best team in MLB.
I guarantee, when we see them in Sept. the guy will kill us.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:07 AM
Stop relying on the Angels.......We have to win games. Not rely on other clubs to win this thing for us

Geeeeeeeez

Jeff


Golden post of the night!!!

Kudos my friend. You are dead on.

I'm tired of scoreboard watching every night when we have had plenty of times to blow this division wide open and run away with it.

JB98
08-23-2008, 12:07 AM
I can't say that I give a damn about Dotel's reaction after giving up three runs one way or another. I do give a damn about how poorly he has been pitching in the month of August. He needs to be removed from that eighth-inning role, at least temporarily.

JB98
08-23-2008, 12:08 AM
And 4 errors in 2 games for the Angels.

I'm regretting my comments that the Angels are the best team in MLB.

The best team in MLB: Our opponent this weekend. They've proven it all year.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:10 AM
JB, you are reading my mind. Maybe Angels would rather see the Twins than the Sox.


Right because the Angels have already clinched what in August? :rolleyes:

FYI to everyone:

Angels are playing for home field advantage if you did not notice.

There is always a conspiracy for everything here in Sox land.

OldRomanPizza
08-23-2008, 12:11 AM
4-0 Twins

Joe Saunders pitching more like Warner Saunders tonite :angry:

:redneck

Thank you for that joke, sire.

Only laugh on a horrible night of baseball.

#1swisher
08-23-2008, 12:11 AM
They just showed the replay again, he didn't look to mad to me. Smiling as he was walking in to the dugout looking at the crowd.

yeah, I saw it again too...IMO he was smirking at the 38,700 crowd booing.
He's a jerk IMO.

TDog
08-23-2008, 12:12 AM
Offense and Danks did just enough tonight. Unfortunately, the bullpen doesn't follow suit. Go get em tomorrow.

Danks did just enough to lose, if that's what you mean. The offense didn't do enough to win. The right hitters were up with men on base -- Quentin, Dye and Ramirez. They didn't come through, although Ramirez later homered after the Rays began to pull away.

There will be days when good hitters don't come though. A hitter who hits .400 with runners in scoring position will fail six of ten times -- perhaps more if you include the walks they take when they are in a position to dirve in two-out runs.

More frustrating is Danks' perfornance. He had the lead, in part because of the Sox defense, including his own. He couldn't hold it through six and he couldn't get out of the seventh without losing the lead.

I can't blame Guillen for not going to the bullpen sooner. The bullpen gave up six runs in less than three innings. I can't blame Guillen for going to the bullpen too soon because Danks was getting ripped at the end.

Danks won't be worthy of the praise he gets around here until he can take his good stuff into the seventh and even the eighth. Some people want to call him an ace. But an ace shouldn't have to depend on three innings of great relief to win.

This was a team loss. There is a lot of blame to go around. As usual, the players lost the game. I can't blame Guillen for not pinch hitting because the Sox had their best hitters up in the key situations where they didn't score.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:12 AM
JB, you are reading my mind. Maybe Angels would rather see the Twins than the Sox.

What's the logic behind this? The Twins are invincible in their Twinkie Dome.
I woudl rather face a station to station team with an aging CF than a team who tries to move runners over.

The Sox are barely over .500 against 1st,2nd place teams.

JB98
08-23-2008, 12:15 AM
What's the logic behind this? The Twins are invincible in their Twinkie Dome.
I woudl rather face a station to station team with an aging CF than a team who tries to move runners over.

The Sox are barely over .500 against 1st,2nd place teams.

No, they are not. In 2006, Oakland walked in there for the first round of the playoffs and kicked their asses.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:16 AM
yeah, I saw it again too...IMO he was smirking at the 38,700 crowd booing.
He's a jerk IMO.


The booing IMO was not called for. Especially to the level of disgust the fans were showing. Once again, Dotel has done more good than bad since he has put on a Sox jersey here. He is and will continue to be a huge key to our pen until Linebrink comes back, if that will ever happen.

WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN B.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:18 AM
Right because the Angels have already clinched what in August? :rolleyes:

FYI to everyone:

Angels are playing for home field advantage if you did not notice.

There is always a conspiracy for everything here in Sox land.

Now that's too much logic for this thread. TB has the best record in the AL.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:19 AM
No, they are not. In 2006, Oakland walked in there for the first round of the playoffs and kicked their asses.

That was 2006.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-23-2008, 12:20 AM
What's the logic behind this? The Twins are invincible in their Twinkie Dome.
I woudl rather face a station to station team with an aging CF than a team who tries to move runners over.

The Sox are barely over .500 against 1st,2nd place teams.

I think "invincible" is a little strong. Twins are 46-23 at home, Sox are 45-20 at home. Pretty similar.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:21 AM
The booing IMO was not called for. Especially to the level of disgust the fans were showing. Once again, Dotel has done more good than bad since he has put on a Sox jersey here. He is and will continue to be a huge key to our pen until Linebrink comes back, if that will ever happen.

WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN B.
The guy didn't record an out. What were they suppose to do cheer him?? They had a right to boo, he stunk, and he has stunk alot lately.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:22 AM
I think "invincible" is a little strong. Twins are 46-23 at home, Sox are 45-20 at home. Pretty similar.

Only when we play them. We can't win there even if spotted 5 runs.

LongLiveFisk
08-23-2008, 12:23 AM
**** Elvis Night.

Any loss hurts.

I was just being facetious when I said that. Of course any loss hurts, especially in such a tight race for the division title.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:24 AM
What's the logic behind this? The Twins are invincible in their Twinkie Dome.
I woudl rather face a station to station team with an aging CF than a team who tries to move runners over.

The Sox are barely over .500 against 1st,2nd place teams.
They aren't invicible at home, And Anaheim isn't afraid to play on the road. The Twins have a history of making the playoffs and then folding.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:25 AM
The guy didn't record an out. What were they suppose to do cheer him?? They had a right to boo, he stunk, and he has stunk alot lately.


I agree he crapped his pants tonight and has done the same the last few weeks.

But a smart thinking fan needs to realize that we need to support this guy because that's the only RH set up option we have since Linebrink's arm appears to have been cut from him. Booing the guy like an enemy is not going to help him get his **** together.

Does everyone here agree how important Dotel is to our success being that Linebrink is MIA?

I hope so.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-23-2008, 12:25 AM
The booing IMO was not called for. Especially to the level of disgust the fans were showing. Once again, Dotel has done more good than bad since he has put on a Sox jersey here. He is and will continue to be a huge key to our pen until Linebrink comes back, if that will ever happen.

WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN B.

I agree about the booing. I don't see what it accomplishes. And yes, the good has out-weighed the bad with Dotel. But the smirk seemed to add insult to injury. Just a perfectly ****ty loss and hopefully we can turn it around tomorrow.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:27 AM
The guy didn't record an out. What were they suppose to do cheer him?? They had a right to boo, he stunk, and he has stunk alot lately.

I started having flashbacks of Larrin LaGrow.

Foulke You
08-23-2008, 12:27 AM
We've let a bunch of games against the Rays this season go by the wayside due to a lack of offensive execution with runners on. Very frustrating. I think the off day might have hurt the Sox a bit. They were clicking on all cylinders before tonight. I realize the level of team we are playing is much better but that off day couldn't have come at a worse time. I had hoped we'd take game 1 vs. Jackson because Kazmir is a tougher assignment. It's doable if Javy keeps pitching like he did in his last couple starts.

I am impressed with the Rays though. They are playing without Crawford and Longoria and look like they haven't skipped a beat. I thought Boston was going to overtake them when they lost those guys and now I'm not so sure.

I'd like to see Thornton get moved into that 8th inning spot until Dotel finds his groove again. I think a lot of people get frustrated with Dotel in that fact that when he is bad, he is extra BAD. He gives up a lot of long balls and walks when he has an off day. Dotel is primarily a 1 pitch pitcher which is why he needs to keep that ball down. When he does that, he gets outs. When he leaves it up like tonight, he gets crushed.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 12:27 AM
Danks did just enough to lose, if that's what you mean. The offense didn't do enough to win. The right hitters were up with men on base -- Quentin, Dye and Ramirez. They didn't come through, although Ramirez later homered after the Rays began to pull away.

There will be days when good hitters don't come though. A hitter who hits .400 with runners in scoring position will fail six of ten times -- perhaps more if you include the walks they take when they are in a position to dirve in two-out runs.

More frustrating is Danks' perfornance. He had the lead, in part because of the Sox defense, including his own. He couldn't hold it through six and he couldn't get out of the seventh without losing the lead.

I can't blame Guillen for not going to the bullpen sooner. The bullpen gave up six runs in less than three innings. I can't blame Guillen for going to the bullpen too soon because Danks was getting ripped at the end.

Danks won't be worthy of the praise he gets around here until he can take his good stuff into the seventh and even the eighth. Some people want to call him an ace. But an ace shouldn't have to depend on three innings of great relief to win.

This was a team loss. There is a lot of blame to go around. As usual, the players lost the game. I can't blame Guillen for not pinch hitting because the Sox had their best hitters up in the key situations where they didn't score.

Once again you're a bit misguided in your biased assessment of Danks.

He obviously didn't have his best stuff, something that apparently only other Sox starters are excused for. His (good) change-up and breaking ball were nonexistent for most of the game, and his fastball which was popping pretty good in the 1st inning, was a couple MPH slower the rest of the game, not to mention he was missing with it more than usual.

In the 2nd inning I was saying to myself that if he goes 6 and the Sox aren't trailing, I'd be content. When he got the lead, and Ozziot kept running the Sox out of more runs against Jackson, there was cause for concern because it meant that Danks may not get pulled after 6 afterall. Then, in the 5th and 6th inning, Rays started smacking Danks around - the writing was on the wall........

Now, YOU'D THINK, after failing to protect Danks, our youngest and least stamina'd starter many times in both 2007 and 2008 in a vain attempt to try to cover his own managerial ass in the most transparent of ways.... Ozzie would be finally smart enough to bring in the rested Thornton for the 7th innnig (Matt ended up blowing both Iwamura and Pena away when he pitched) and count his blessings with Carasco and Jenks in the 8th and 9th should Sox scratch out a (winning) run out in either the 7 or 8th....

You know what the difference is between Danks and your golden god Mark Buerhle? Danks on a bad day gives up 2 runs in 6 innings. Buerhle on a bad day? Throws a tantrum after a play is not made behind him and ends up giving up 6 (4 earned). And yet he's your ace...

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:27 AM
I was just being facetious when I said that. Of course any loss hurts, especially in such a tight race for the division title.


We're cool.

I just thought for a second Elvis night meant more to you than the big picture of the pennant race.

My bad for jumping to judgment.

:cool:

JB98
08-23-2008, 12:28 AM
That was 2006.

So? If the Twins are invincible at home, then so are the Sox. Check the records if you don't believe me.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:28 AM
The funny thing is all these people thinking the Sox will win the division because the Twins suck on the road. Well if you check the standings the Sox actually have a worse record than the Twins on the road. The Sox also are about to go on a 10 game road trip. The Sox are the ones that are going to have to step it up on the road.

It's about time the Sox show they are the dominant team and pull away from the Twins. If they don't, maybe the really aren't the dominant team most think they are.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-23-2008, 12:29 AM
Only when we play them. We can't win there even if spotted 5 runs.

I took you to mean against anyone. Yeah, we do suck there, something which I still think is 80% mental.

LongLiveFisk
08-23-2008, 12:31 AM
We're cool.

I just thought for a second Elvis night meant more to you than the big picture of the pennant race.

My bad for jumping to judgment.

:cool:

Hell no. I've been a Sox fan way too long for that. I just like to be a wise ass sometimes. :tongue:

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:31 AM
You know what the difference is between Danks and your golden god Mark Buerhle? Danks on a bad day gives up 2 runs in 6 nnings. Buerhle on bad day? Throws a tantrum after a play is not made behind him and ends up giving up 5 (4 earned). And yet he's your ace...

You know what the difference is between Buerhle and your golden god John Danks? Buerhle on a good day goes 8 innings. Danks on a good day goes 6.1.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:31 AM
They aren't invicible at home, And Anaheim isn't afraid to play on the road. The Twins have a history of making the playoffs and then folding.

Actually the Angels have the best road record. As for the Twins at least they make the playoffs and in the end there is only one team that doesn't fold.

At least their chances of winning a World Series are better than most teams that consistently place 2nd or 3rd.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:32 AM
I agree about the booing. I don't see what it accomplishes. And yes, the good has out-weighed the bad with Dotel. But the smirk seemed to add insult to injury. Just a perfectly ****ty loss and hopefully we can turn it around tomorrow.


Well, the way I take the smirk is almost like when Zambrano was booed off the field at Wrigley and then him pointing to the crowd and holding his ear. That case with Zambrano was another case of Chicago fans being stupid fans and being small picture thinkers instead of seeing the big picture. Same here with the Sox. The guy has been lights out most of the year and then they go Mike Jackson on him tonight.

Chicago fans are getting annoying when it comes to this stufff. The Rex Grossman booing last night was an emberassment to Chicago.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:32 AM
We've let a bunch of games against the Rays this season go by the wayside due to a lack of offensive execution with runners on. Very frustrating. I think the off day might have hurt the Sox a bit. They were clicking on all cylinders before tonight. I realize the level of team we are playing is much better but that off day couldn't have come at a worse time. I had hoped we'd take game 1 vs. Jackson because Kazmir is a tougher assignment. It's doable if Javy keeps pitching like he did in his last couple starts.

I am impressed with the Rays though. They are playing without Crawford and Longoria and look like they haven't skipped a beat. I thought Boston was going to overtake them when they lost those guys and now I'm not so sure.

I'd like to see Thornton get moved into that 8th inning spot until Dotel finds his groove again. I think a lot of people get frustrated with Dotel in that fact that when he is bad, he is extra BAD. He gives up a lot of long balls and walks when he has an off day. Dotel is primarily a 1 pitch pitcher which is why he needs to keep that ball down. When he does that, he gets outs. When he leaves it up like tonight, he gets crushed.
I don't think the day off had anything to do with it. It was the level of competition that was the difference tonight. We ain't playing the Mariners no more. Time to step it up!!

Foulke You
08-23-2008, 12:34 AM
I dont really know what Ozzie was doing twice in one inning trying to hit and run and letting Madden totally make him look dumb by picking his signs. Once is fine, but twice, we had E.Jackson on the ropes that inning. He was wild, but Ozzie gave that inning away

I think this was the biggest momentum shift of the game. I really felt like we were going to pounce on Jackson in that inning after the Swisher 2 run bomb. There was no need to run in that situation with a poor base stealer in Uribe. Cabrera doesn't hit into too many DPs and Jackson couldn't find the plate. It was a poor choice. Cabrera gets on with the BB, and then we proceed to completely run ourselves out of the inning on a 2nd pitchout. I'm not sure if I've ever seen that before on back to back plays.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:35 AM
I took you to mean against anyone. Yeah, we do suck there, something which I still think is 80% mental.
We better have a 2 game lead when we go there the last week of Sept. If we have a one game lead or are behind, we are in deep trouble.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:36 AM
It's about time the Sox show they are the dominant team and pull away from the Twins. If they don't, maybe the really aren't the dominant team most think they are.

I don't think they are. We keep waiting for them to snap out of something but this is the same team we've seen all year. Making the playoofs may be a consolation prize but the World Series is a bit of a reach unless they go one some insane hot streak in the post season.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:37 AM
Hell no. I've been a Sox fan way too long for that. I just like to be a wise ass sometimes. :tongue:


I hear you.

You know what's sad, of those 39,000 fans out there tonight I can bet you a good % had more interest to the Elvis activities than the outcome of the game. One of the biggest reasons I stay away from the park during such promotions.

I bet Dotel would have pitched wearing an Elvis Suit no one would have booed him.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-23-2008, 12:38 AM
We better have a 2 game lead when we go there the last week of Sept. If we have a one game lead or are behind, we are in deep trouble.

I wish I could disagree but right know I can't.:(:

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:39 AM
I don't think the day off had anything to do with it. It was the level of competition that was the difference tonight. We ain't playing the Mariners no more. Time to step it up!!


Solid post my man....solid post!

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:40 AM
You know what the difference is between Buerhle and your golden god John Danks? Buerhle on a good day goes 8 innings. Danks on a good day goes 6.1.

Buerhle has went 8 innings even on a bad day.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 12:41 AM
I think this was the biggest momentum shift of the game. I really felt like we were going to pounce on Jackson in that inning after the Swisher 2 run bomb. There was no need to run in that situation with a poor base stealer in Uribe. Cabrera doesn't hit into too many DPs and Jackson couldn't find the plate. It was a poor choice. Cabrera gets on with the BB, and then we proceed to completely run ourselves out of the inning on a 2nd pitchout. I'm not sure if I've ever seen that before on back to back plays.

Yep.

Edwin Jackson was ready to cry; with middle of the order coming up, Sox were on the verge of giving the struggling Danks a nice run cushion...

Then comes "Ozzieball" (back to back CS) and the inning is over.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:41 AM
We better have a 2 game lead when we go there the last week of Sept. If we have a one game lead or are behind, we are in deep trouble.

I'd prefer a 6 game lead.

soltrain21
08-23-2008, 12:42 AM
You know what the difference is between Buerhle and your golden god John Danks? Buerhle on a good day goes 8 innings. Danks on a good day goes 6.1.


And sometimes Mark gives up about 15 hits a game...?

cnw8052
08-23-2008, 12:45 AM
Officially back in 2nd place. Twins win 9-0. :angry:

Sucked to lose a half game yesterday while idle too. :mad:

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 12:45 AM
You know what the difference is between Buerhle and your golden god John Danks? Buerhle on a good day goes 8 innings. Danks on a good day goes 6.1.

Yes and Buerhle gives up almost 2 more runs in those extra 5 outs. Great trade off.

If Ozziot knew how to handle Danks, he'd be 13-4 with a mid-2.00 ERA. So he'd barely average "only" 6 innings - quality vs. quantity much? Unless you like losing games like today's...

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:46 AM
As much as I want to punch Drew Carey Madden in the mouth for stealing our signs, He took Ozzie to school in every aspect of managing a baseball game tonight. And he has that team playing and pitching (especially the pen) at a very hight level. And they are battling injuries too.


Props to TB.

Now it's time for our Sox to get their head out their asses for the next two games.

Foulke You
08-23-2008, 12:47 AM
Yep.

Edwin Jackson was ready to cry; with middle of the order coming up, Sox were on the verge of giving the struggling Danks a nice run cushion...

Then comes "Ozzieball" (back to back CS) and the inning is over.
I do like Ozzie but I do get annoyed that he just can't help himself in these type of situations. He sometimes forgets that he doesn't have a running team and likes to "force the issue" and start stealing. This team is built for the 3 run HR and not "get em over get em in". When you run like that with below avg base stealers and have your opponent reading your mail it just takes the bat out of the hands of boppers like AJ and Quentin who were coming up.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:47 AM
Officially back in 2nd place. Twins win 9-0. :angry:

Sucked to lose a half game yesterday while idle too. :mad:


The only team that is going to keep us from winning the division is the White Sox.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Yes and Buerhle gives up 2 more runs in that extra inning

Nice trade off

If Ozziot knew how to handle Danks, he'd be 13-4 with a mid-2.00 ERA. So he'd average "only" 6 innings - quality vs. quantity much?

I was just trying to stir the pot. Yes, Guillen could handle Danks better. Danks also needs to learn to pitch deeper into games. Needing the bullpen to pitch 4 innings every game doesn't constitute an ace.

Foulke You
08-23-2008, 12:48 AM
And he has that team playing and pitching (especially the pen) at a very hight level.
Speaking of that pen...who taught Grant "Ball-Four" not to suck? I don't remember him throwing that nasty when he was on the Twinkees.

Frankie5Angels
08-23-2008, 12:49 AM
I'd prefer a 6 game lead.
Trust me I will take that. It would cause me alot less stress!!:D: I think we need at least a 2 game lead though. I think it is a mental thing when we go there, and I don't want to go in there having to win 2 of 3 or having to sweep. We have a rough schedule ahead. Everyone is talking about the Twins schedule, we have a huge roadtrip coming up. The Twins will be facing Seattle and Oakland. We will be facing Baltimore, who seems like they always get to Booby Jenks, so they scare me, and then we go to Boston, who is tough at home, but aren't as scary without ManRam, then we go to Cleveland, who seem to be playing better. I thnik this roadtrip will decided what happens in the Central.

MCHSoxFan
08-23-2008, 12:50 AM
Second place, here we come!

No teal please! Why the hell did you do that? Just wondering cause we ARE gonna be in 2nd.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:51 AM
And sometimes Mark gives up about 15 hits a game...?

Don't you think it's a bit silly debating over 2 guys on the same team?

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:51 AM
Speaking of that pen...who taught Grant "Ball-Four" not to suck? I don't remember him throwing that nasty when he was on the Twinkees.


That pen has some pretty damn good stuff coming from it.

I think most of it is built with spare parts of other teams' rejects like a Balfour.

That guy made our two MVPs look like school children.

The Dude
08-23-2008, 12:52 AM
You know what the difference is between Buerhle and your golden god John Danks? Buerhle on a good day goes 8 innings. Danks on a good day goes 6.1.

Danks is still the ace of the staff and our best pitcher right now. We don't give the man runs at all and it is pathetic.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 12:54 AM
I was just trying to stir the pot. Yes, Guillen could handle Danks better. Danks also needs to learn to pitch deeper into game.

In a perfect world, John Danks would be Johan Santana circa 2004.

But we DON'T live in a perfect world. Danks is still young and as a max-effort pitcher, doesn't know how to carry his best stuff deep into games.

So Ozzie can either accept reality and get his team a few more wins out of Danks.... hopiing that over off-season and next year, Danks could be stretched a little bit more... Even if it means occasionally bringing in Linebrink, Carrasco, Thornton, Dotel a little earlier.

OR, he can try to pound a square peg into a round hole - and get avoidable losses like the one in the Metrodome earlier this month, the loss at home against Boston and tonight, just to name the most recent history....

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:54 AM
Danks is still the ace of the staff and our best pitcher right now. We don't give the man runs at all and it is pathetic.


I don't think Danks will be getting the ball for game 1 of postseason over Buehrle...If we get there.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:55 AM
In a perfect world, John Danks would be Johan Santana circa 2004.

But we DON'T live in a perfect world. Danks is still young and as a max-effort pitcher, doesn't know how to carry his best stuff deep into games.

So Ozzie can either accept reality and get his team a few more wins out of Danks.... hopiing that over off-season and next year, Danks could be stretched a little bit more...

OR, he can try to pound a square peg into a round hole - and get avoidable losses like the one in the Metrodome earlier this month, the loss at home against Boston and tonight, just to name the most recent history....

So you're agreeing with my post?

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:56 AM
In a perfect world, John Danks would be Johan Santana circa 2004.

But we DON'T live in a perfect world. Danks is still young and as a max-effort pitcher, doesn't know how to carry his best stuff deep into games.

So Ozzie can either accept reality and get his team a few more wins out of Danks.... hopiing that over off-season and next year, Danks could be stretched a little bit more...

OR, he can try to pound a square peg into a round hole - and get avoidable losses like the one in the Metrodome earlier this month, the loss at home against Boston and tonight, just to name the most recent history....


Hit the nail on the head.

This the reason he is not our "ACE" right now.

He will be some day IMO .

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 12:57 AM
That pen has some pretty damn good stuff coming from it.

I think most of it is built with spare parts of other teams' rejects like a Balfour.

That guy made our two MVPs look like school children.

That same pen may suck next year. A consistent pen may be one of the most difficult things to have in baseball unless it consistently sucks.

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:58 AM
Another note for today, 2 weeks of Horacio Ramirez and I just about had enough.

Let Broadway take the 5th starter role and plug in Richard as your #2 lefty in the pen.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:59 AM
So how bad is Horacio Ramirez? How the hell does that guy get major league hitters out?

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 01:00 AM
Another note for today, 2 weeks of Horacio Ramirez and I just about had enough.


Get out of my head!!!!

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 01:02 AM
Get out of my head!!!!

I just saw that too. :tongue:

The guy was squeezed by a very bad ump tonight in Eddings, but he does himself no favors by leaving a ton of pitches up in the zone. For that, bring back Boone.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:02 AM
The funny thing is all these people thinking the Sox will win the division because the Twins suck on the road
.

I can't speak for anybody else...

But I think the Sox will win the division because they're more talented than the Twins, even with Contreras on DL.

If Ozzie, Cooper and Walker do their job, we win the division by 5-7 games.

EuroSox35
08-23-2008, 01:04 AM
I wonder what Dave Wills is thinking, all these years later, and he still sees a lot of the same stuff, HR or nothing offense show up frequently, dumb baserunning /fundamental mistakes, etc. Not that I'd follow the Rays but it looks like he also has the luxury of watching a manager who knows when to pull a pitcher

Not the end of the world, this is the best team in the league, but still, you expect a little more at home. And if Ozzie defended Dotel then he's a douche. Sometimes it's hard to argue against him having favoritism. Just like his treatment of Griffey in all of his interviews, it was clear that Griffey was a KW move without as much acceptance from Ozzie, ton of smart ass remarks like 'he better do something', 'about time' after his great game the other day (maybe he missed his opening game), etc. And to the other poster who said 'you expect him to say [this guy] sucks?', uhh, he does that all the time...

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 01:08 AM
What's there to discuss:
Since I am rooting for both the Twins and the Rays to keep Red Cubs & Yankees out of the play-offs, this loss doesn't bother me as much.

Better win the next 2, though. :angry:

Are you honestly rooting for our division rivals while we don't have a guaranteed playoff spot?

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:09 AM
I wonder what Dave Wills is thinking, all these years later, and he still sees a lot of the same stuff, HR or nothing offense show up frequently, dumb baserunning /fundamental mistakes

.

Remember that Rays first run scored with 2 outs because our OF were too slow to retrieve the ball in the gap and one of them fell down.

Otherwise Navarro is held up at 3rd or is thrown out at home with a decent relay throw.

2-0 vs. 2-1 there is definately a big difference there as I doubt John Danks would be throwing a get me over pitch into Carlos Pena's wheelhouse if he had a 2 run lead, probably K's him up in the zone or else walks him, instead.... In baseball, little things matter.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:12 AM
Are you honestly rooting for our division rivals while we don't have a guaranteed playoff spot?

Rooting would be too strong a term, I think.

But I don't get nearly as mad when Twins win as most because I believe that if Sox play up to their talents, we would be winning the division anyway. I am not afraid of the stupid Metrodome "curse" either for that very reason.

And if Sox DON'T play up to their talents... they don't deserve to be in the playoffs in the 1st place. After 2005, I am much more laid back in that regard.

I'd much rather Twins made playoffs than Red Cubs and Yankees.

Ziggy S
08-23-2008, 01:13 AM
Now, we have to hope Javy doesn't do his usual "I can't show up because it's a big game in a pennant race" routine. His last two starts have been terrific, but he benefitted from a huge lead in both of them. If he can bring it and Ozzie doesn't come up with dumbass ideas like sending Juan ****ing Uribe to steal 2nd, we might just pull it out.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 01:15 AM
I can't speak for anybody else...

But I think the Sox will win the division because they're more talented than the Twins, even with Contreras on DL.

If Ozzie, Cooper and Walker do their job, we win the division by 5-7 games.

Maybe the Twins are just as talented. They never carry the big stats but they seem to win. I would even think Detroit has more talent than the Twins but not having the success.

I really don't think it's all about the coaches doing their jobs as much as the players doing theirs.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 01:15 AM
Rooting would be too strong a term, I think.
I'd much rather Twins made playoffs than Red Cubs and Yankees.

I think most here would agree with that.......... after the White Sox already clinched a playoff spot.

TDog
08-23-2008, 01:16 AM
Once again you're a bit misguided in your biased assessment of Danks.

He obviously didn't have his best stuff, something that apparently only other Sox starters are excused for. ...

I have no bias against Danks. I think he's a gutsy young pitcher. But he doesn't approach being the staff ace. Buehrle and Vazquez have had good and bad games this year, but they have been able to go deep.

Even earned runs can be deceptive. If not for a great defensive play by Danks himself and a strong throw by Quentin, Danks would have given up five earned runs in 6.1 innings, which is noteworthy only because often this year Sox pitchers have been hurt by defensive misplays that don't rise to the level of errors.

I have no idea what is wrong with Dotel. I saw him last week in Oakland. He seemed to have his velocity, but it looks like he has lost some movement. Maybe I'm wrong and his velocity is down. I had hoped he would have regrouped after giving up two home runs in Oakland a week ago. Dotel came in the game because Danks couldn't go seven.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:16 AM
Not the end of the world, this is the best team in the league



Rays are not the best team in the league. Especially not without Longoria, Crawford & with a slumping Upton.

White Sox are the best team in the AL. Trust me, you'll see Angels go by wayside as prematurely-peaked 2001 Mariners did.

soxfan44
08-23-2008, 01:18 AM
If you think the Sox have a more talented team than the Twins, you're insane! The Twins will bitch slap the Sox once again and win the division by 5. (I'm not negative, I'm a realist)

I can't speak for anybody else...

But I think the Sox will win the division because they're more talented than the Twins, even with Contreras on DL.

If Ozzie, Cooper and Walker do their job, we win the division by 5-7 games.

Mod edit: Do not make your posts personal.

arKnaD7
08-23-2008, 01:22 AM
I had my fantasy football draft tonight.

Looks like it was a good game to miss :angry:

ChicagoG19
08-23-2008, 01:23 AM
I was at the game in person today and it was brutal watching Dotel. I turned to my friend after he gave up a double said Ozzie has to take him out cause I have a bad feeling tonight. Low and behold, the next batter cranks a homerun.

Also, can anyone tell me if the runner on the tag made Danks in the second was out. From my angle it looked like the runner was safe and have not seen a highlight of that play yet.

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2008, 01:27 AM
Was there anyone who actually wanted that slowly-declining ******* on our team for the kind of money he wanted - other than members of the media? Yeah, about half the posters on here went nuts when the Sox didn't get him, regardless of cost.

If Ozzie, Cooper and Walker do their job, we win the division by 5-7 games.Are they going to play?

[

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 01:29 AM
I do like Ozzie but I do get annoyed that he just can't help himself in these type of situations. He sometimes forgets that he doesn't have a running team and likes to "force the issue" and start stealing. This team is built for the 3 run HR and not "get em over get em in". When you run like that with below avg base stealers and have your opponent reading your mail it just takes the bat out of the hands of boppers like AJ and Quentin who were coming up.

Ozzie probably thought they were still playing the Mariners. You can't always get away with stuff like that against a very good team.

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2008, 01:31 AM
Ozzie probably thought they were still playing the Mariners. You can't always get away with stuff like that against a very good team.And how many people on here piss and moan when he doesn't do anything but play station-to-station baseball? Try something and you're wrong. Don't try anything and you're wrong. Sucks to be Ozzie, I guess.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:32 AM
I have no bias against Danks. I think he's a gutsy young pitcher. But he doesn't approach being the staff ace. Buehrle and Vazquez have had good and bad games this year, but they have been able to go deep



I agree with you that Danks is not an ace (yet). But calling Buerhle and especially Vazquez an ace would be even more incorrect. I don't know why it's hard to grasp this but here it goes again: White Sox at this precise moment in time do not have a true bonafied supercalifragilisticexpialidocious ace [in the mold of Santana, Halliday, Webb, Beckett (postseason-weighed), younger Pedro, Shilling, healthy Mark Prior, etc.]

We're a team with a bunch of very good #2 and #3 right now. And that's good enough to win World Series as long as the offense and bullpen hold up their end of the "bargain".

Even earned runs can be deceptive

That's why I like to count all runs given up by a pitcher, not just unearned.

I have no idea what is wrong with Dotel.

I've explained numerously what's wrong with Dotel. He's become a predictable one-pitch pitcher as the year has gone on; as his arm began to naturally tire just a little, his location has gotten worse - hence the Pinata City as of late.

Deceive.
Locate.
Vary speed & break on the ball.

Dotel has been forgetting these pillars of pitching success.

kitekrazy
08-23-2008, 01:40 AM
And how many people on here piss and moan when he doesn't do anything but play station-to-station baseball? Try something and you're wrong. Don't try anything and you're wrong. Sucks to be Ozzie, I guess.

You are forced into it when you have PK, Thome, Griffey and Dye in the same lineup.

hi im skot
08-23-2008, 01:47 AM
What's there to discuss:

Thoroughly outplayed and outmanaged in our house by a short-handed team.

A humbling loss that hightlights some of the uncorrected deficiencies, including over-reliance on HR, which doesn't always come against good pitching.

Dye in particular has been swinging out of his shoes in the clutch lately. It was so nice to see him go oppo for a HR in Oakland, but he's looking tired & in-between lately. Mini-slump.

Ozzie screwed up yet another Danks start by keeping him a few batters too long. Danks's change-up had deserted him for most for the game; he barely wiggled out of trouble for 4 innings, but it caught up with him in the 5th and 6th at which point Ozzie should have let Thornton start the 7th. Couple that with fact that Ozzie was wasting precious outs on stupid bunting and had numerous signs stolen by the Rays... Whatever, he's what he is. Crown his ass.

Since I am rooting for both the Twins and the Rays to keep Red Cubs & Yankees out of the play-offs, this loss doesn't bother me as much.

Better win the next 2, though. :angry:

:?:

Priorities.

champagne030
08-23-2008, 01:53 AM
A complete team loss.

Ozzie **** the bed by pitching Danks past his 90 pitch limit, especially since a ton of those pitches were in high stress situations. Additionally, he had his signs stolen and still didn't change them. Again, he made Thornton walk a righty to get the lefty/lefty matchup that doesn't favor him (although it worked despite his error in judgement).

TQC, Dye and Alexei had chances to put this game away early. Cabrera makes a **** bunt, Swish doesn't get Griffey to third with nobody out. Dotel didn't have it, ect. The list is long and distinguished.

Hopefully, Javy pitches like he has the last two games and stuffs this **** lineup that Tampa is running out there right now. And we execute better against Kazmir and Ozzie gets to sit on his hands.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 01:56 AM
other teams' rejects like a Balfour.

That guy made our two MVPs look like school children.

Belfour tried his darnest to walk both Quentin and Dye.

They clearly wanted to be the hero and would have none of it, chasing ball 4.

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2008, 01:59 AM
Ozzie **** the bed ...I can't tell you how tired I am of this cliché. How about being original? How about avoiding clichés altogether?

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 02:06 AM
Ozzie **** the bed by pitching Danks past his 90 pitch limit, especially since a ton of those pitches were in high stress situations.

.

Exactly.

At one point in time, Danks was a cleanly fielded ball away from putting up 5 scoreless innings - a real achievement considering it was his "off" day.

By the time Ozzie got off his seat, Danks was giving up rockets left and right.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 02:07 AM
Exactly.

At one point in time, Danks was a cleanly fielded ball away from putting up 5 scoreless innings - a real achievement considering it was his "off" day.

By the time Ozzie got off his seat, Danks was giving up rockets left and right.

Dude, look what our bullpen did, and you wanted them in the game earlier?

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2008, 02:49 AM
How do you "stretch" a starting pitcher other than letting him throw a few more than last time? Or has "five and fly" become a respectable goal?

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 02:54 AM
How do you "stretch" a starting pitcher other than letting him throw a few more than last time?

Or has "five and fly" become a respectable goal?

It's been tried. It's been shown not to work (consistently) with Danks yet. Every pitcher is unique. Pennant race/playoffs are a bad time for these experiments. That's what altering off-season training, 2009, 2010, etc are for.

And yes, "six and fly" is vastly preferrable to "seven and losing the damn game"

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2008, 03:00 AM
It's been tried. It's been shown not to work (consistently) with Danks yet. Every pitcher is unique. Pennant race/playoffs are a bad time for these experiments. That's what altering off-season training, 2009, 2010, etc are for.

And yes, "six and fly" is vastly preferrable to "seven and losing the damn game"Well, I guess most of us lack your prescience to know the exact moment when a pitcher is going to lose it. If only the people actually running baseball teams knew half as much as you do, they'd win 120 games every year.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 03:02 AM
Dude, look what our bullpen did, and you wanted them in the game earlier?

Thornton came in with RISP in the 7th and blew everyone away. What's so unreasonable about him starting 7th with a clean slate?

Then, you go with the solid Carrasco in the 8th. Hell, with a 2-2 game instead of down 3-2, Grant Balfour doesn't have any room for error and might have not made quite as good pitches on Quentin and Dye with bases loaded, with Sox quite possible grabbing the lead....

Then they ended up scoring off Rays relief in the 8th anyway, so the 9th would have belonged to Jenks.

Baseball is a funny game. Even guys like Dotel, Ramirez who otherwise had bad outings, might have easily pitched much better in a tied game - because then Rays hitters would have been more tight or desperate to score go-ahead run on the road, thus expanding their strikezone, who knows...

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 03:05 AM
. If only the people actually running baseball teams knew half as much as you do, they'd win 120 games every year.

Nah, they'd still find a way to **** things up.

For I am a blue blood bon vivant, while they are, well... not.












:tongue:

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 03:06 AM
Baseball is a funny game

I think you're the one who doesn't realize this, considering you know exactly everything that didn't happen.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 03:15 AM
Well, I guess most of us lack your prescience to know the exact moment when a pitcher is going to lose it. .

Are you kidding?

Did you not see the rockets off Danks in the 5th and 6th (and of course 7th)?

This wasn't Danks's day in terms of stuff and pinpoint control not being there for the most part after the 1st inning. He battled his ass of and put up 4 scoreless frames, allowing the Sox offense to put some pressure on Edwin Jackson.

His luck ran out in the middle innings; you didn't have to be prescient to see that it wasn't a great idea to trot him out there again, especially with a rested bullpen at home. Given the full context of his career/season.

RadioheadRocks
08-23-2008, 03:34 AM
Well, the way I take the smirk is almost like when Zambrano was booed off the field at Wrigley and then him pointing to the crowd and holding his ear. That case with Zambrano was another case of Chicago fans being stupid fans and being small picture thinkers instead of seeing the big picture. Same here with the Sox. The guy has been lights out most of the year and then they go Mike Jackson on him tonight.

Chicago fans are getting annoying when it comes to this stufff. The Rex Grossman booing last night was an emberassment to Chicago.

Wish I knew where this "lights out most of the year Dotel" has been, cause I sure as hell haven't seen THAT. I said this last week and I'll say it again... the problem with Dotel is you never know from one day to the next whether you're going to get "Good Dotel" or "Bad Dotel". Look at his statistics all you want, but from what I've seen we've had more "Bad Dotel" than good this year.

alohafri
08-23-2008, 10:01 AM
I have no problem with Guillen tipping his hat to Dotel. The guy has been a huge asset to our bullpen all year. Opponents are batting less that .200 off him. He also has had some huge strikeouts in key situations.

Dotel is going to give up homeruns. He challenges hitters with a hard fastball. When the hitter makes solid contact that is usually going to be the result. People forget that is exactly how he struck out 76 hitters.

I would be more worried about his arm tiring out late in the season. It seems like hitters are catching up to his fastball much easier. Dotel without his fastball is basically useless. I hope it's just a brief dead arm period.

Well, he could have said, "Dotel has been a valuable member of our bullpen this season, but today, he pretty much put the game out of hand by not getting anyone out."

Tragg
08-23-2008, 10:02 AM
Are you kidding?

Did you not see the rockets off Danks in the 5th and 6th (and of course 7th)
He often won't pull even when it's completely obvious. A fresh bullpen and you wait for 2 homers and a double before realizing Dotel was having an off night.
Juan Uribe, who has 35 career steals and 33 CS, runs against the best defensive team in baseball.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-23-2008, 10:03 AM
The Sox win six is a row and then lose one and everyone has to criticize and analyze every pitch, placing the loss at the feet of the pitching.

To me, the game was lost early by non-timely hitting in the first three innings, when they had 7 runners on and did not score. If they score 3 or 4 runs there, it's a different game.

Bottom line is that the team lost. The pitching and hitting both had bad games.

Time to move on to game two vs. the Rays.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-23-2008, 10:04 AM
He often won't pull even when it's completely obvious. A fresh bullpen and you wait for 2 homers and a double before realizing Dotel was having an off night.
Juan Uribe, who has 35 career steals and 33 CS, runs against the best defensive team in baseball.

IIRC, in that play involving Uribe, the Rays stole the Sox signs and pitched out. It was probably a hit and run.

RockJock07
08-23-2008, 10:12 AM
Ozzie is a joke.

False, horrible post

RockJock07
08-23-2008, 10:32 AM
And how many people on here piss and moan when he doesn't do anything but play station-to-station baseball? Try something and you're wrong. Don't try anything and you're wrong. Sucks to be Ozzie, I guess.

I love this post, Ozzie can't win and he doesn't give a ****. He's gonna do whatever he can to get this team to the playoff. WAKE UP PEOPLE, Ozzie's actually trying to play good baseball.

alohafri
08-23-2008, 10:45 AM
The Sox win six is a row and then lose one and everyone has to criticize and analyze every pitch, placing the loss at the feet of the pitching.



Losses are intensified when you are at the game. :D:

BeefyD
08-23-2008, 10:50 AM
Losses are intensified when you are at the game. :D:

Well, that and when your divisional rival wins every freakin' game they play.

DickAllen72
08-23-2008, 10:56 AM
The booing IMO was not called for. Especially to the level of disgust the fans were showing. Once again, Dotel has done more good than bad since he has put on a Sox jersey here. He is and will continue to be a huge key to our pen until Linebrink comes back, if that will ever happen.

Definitely. At least he just smirked at the dumbasses booing him instead of flipping them off.

I could understand booing the situation or the fact that Ozzie was leaving him in when he obviously didn't have it, but booing Dotel as he's walking back to the dugout is stupid and classless considering all the great performances he's had for the Sox this season so far.

TDog
08-23-2008, 11:45 AM
How do you "stretch" a starting pitcher other than letting him throw a few more than last time? Or has "five and fly" become a respectable goal?

Danks inability to pitch past six is what I find frustrating. I don't see why fans are satisfied with six from him. He was a first-round draft pick. He must have pitched shutouts and no-hitters in high school. He must have finished games before turning pro. In the minor leagues, he never pitched a complete game. In the majors he has never pitched a complete game.

It isn't a matter of pitch count. Look at how effective Danks was in Oakland last weekend in the fifth and sixth innings relative to earlier in the game, and look at his pitch counts at that point. Do it for the rest of the schedule if you're not convinced. The pattern is not pitches thrown. It is inning pitched.

In Oakland, he came out after six, after retiring seven straight after getting Frank Thomas to ground into a doubleplay with the bases loaded to end the fourth. After 3.1 innings, he had allowed 11 baserunners, excluding Swisher's dropped fly. His pitch count was stretched out. He threw 108 pitches. Friday night he went into the seventh at 95 pitches. In Oakland, he started the sixth at 99 pitches.

In fact, Danks can have a no-hitter going through six and lose the game in the seventh. He only threw 77 pitches in six against the Red Sox, but threw 26 in the seventh in giving up two runs.

Danks is close to being a very good pitcher. He won't be until he learns to go deeper into games. Fans shouldn't be satisfied with six strong innings from one of their top starters. I'm sure Guillen isn't satisfied with the concept of "five and fly" or even "six and sit." Sox starters not going deeper into games contributed to bullpen problems in July.

I can't blame Guillen for not going to the bullpen earlier. The players who lost Friday night's game is not a short one. But near the top is Danks who didn't pitch well enough long enough to win.

btrain929
08-23-2008, 11:55 AM
The guy didn't record an out. What were they suppose to do cheer him?? They had a right to boo, he stunk, and he has stunk alot lately.

Not only did he not get an out, but gave up 2 home runs and another line shot off the wall. It was a piss-poor effort.

Oldfellah
08-23-2008, 12:20 PM
A sad loss, but we have a tendency to rebound after these bad games... Look for a resounding W today coupled with a twinky loss!!!

Paulwny
08-23-2008, 12:28 PM
Oz calls for a steal after it appeared that the sign may have been stolen. Instead of changing the steal sign he gives up an out to see if the steal sign was really stolen. Great thinking Oz.

Hitmen77
08-23-2008, 12:41 PM
Oz calls for a steal after it appeared that the sign may have been stolen. Instead of changing the steal sign he gives up an out to see if the steal sign was really stolen. Great thinking Oz.

We could have really had Jackson on the ropes in the 4th. After the 2-run HR we could have had 1st and 2nd, nobody out. But the 2 hit-and-run/caught stealing plays killed any chance of a Sox rally. :angry:

champagne030
08-23-2008, 12:44 PM
I can't tell you how tired I am of this cliché. How about being original? How about avoiding clichés altogether?

Ozzie mismanaged several situations.

Is that really better? :shrug:

LoveYourSuit
08-23-2008, 12:51 PM
Wish I knew where this "lights out most of the year Dotel" has been, cause I sure as hell haven't seen THAT. I said this last week and I'll say it again... the problem with Dotel is you never know from one day to the next whether you're going to get "Good Dotel" or "Bad Dotel". Look at his statistics all you want, but from what I've seen we've had more "Bad Dotel" than good this year.


Give me a damn break. You are not serious right?

Wow, the guy is struggling the last 2 weeks and you guys already put him in the same shelf as Mike Jackson.

So all you smart ass Sox fans, what is Plan B you would give Ozzie right now for RH set up?

Anyone says Carrasco, I will puke. Carrasco is fine at what he does right now, but give me a break if you think he can set up for us.

Law11
08-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Dotel has had long ball issues ALL-YEAR.
remember the Cabrera Homerun in Detroit ay back when.

This guy is either dead on or a nightmare waiting to explode.
and as for ozzie being mad at the fans too bad Oz.. Deal with it.
The game was over as Dotel walked off the field smirking.

TDog
08-23-2008, 02:17 PM
Oz calls for a steal after it appeared that the sign may have been stolen. Instead of changing the steal sign he gives up an out to see if the steal sign was really stolen. Great thinking Oz.

Unless you read something I missed, you don't know that the Sox didn't change the steal sign (or the indicator sign). For that matter, you don't know that both signs were stolen. You don't even know if there was a sign on both plays. Cabrera could hav been running on his own.

On most teams, while hit-and-run plays are called from the bench, straight steals are the discretion of baserunners. If Cabrera was going on a straight steal, the Rays guessing he was going likely had nothing to do with stealing signs.

tstrike2000
08-23-2008, 02:19 PM
Danks did just enough to lose, if that's what you mean. The offense didn't do enough to win. The right hitters were up with men on base -- Quentin, Dye and Ramirez. They didn't come through, although Ramirez later homered after the Rays began to pull away.

There will be days when good hitters don't come though. A hitter who hits .400 with runners in scoring position will fail six of ten times -- perhaps more if you include the walks they take when they are in a position to dirve in two-out runs.

More frustrating is Danks' perfornance. He had the lead, in part because of the Sox defense, including his own. He couldn't hold it through six and he couldn't get out of the seventh without losing the lead.

I can't blame Guillen for not going to the bullpen sooner. The bullpen gave up six runs in less than three innings. I can't blame Guillen for going to the bullpen too soon because Danks was getting ripped at the end.

Danks won't be worthy of the praise he gets around here until he can take his good stuff into the seventh and even the eighth. Some people want to call him an ace. But an ace shouldn't have to depend on three innings of great relief to win.

This was a team loss. There is a lot of blame to go around. As usual, the players lost the game. I can't blame Guillen for not pinch hitting because the Sox had their best hitters up in the key situations where they didn't score.

Yes, typically you win and lose as a team. Nobody's gonna say Danks pitched great, but the Sox were only down 1 when he went out of the game after 6 1/3. Thornton did his job keeping the rest of the 7th in check. Plus, I don't think anyone's gonna blame Ozzie for going to the pen either as Danks typically does not go deep into games. Did the offense blow chances? Of course they did, but they still scored 4 runs. If the Dotel doesn't suck come in and suck ass, there's a chance we pull this thing out. Then Ramirez further took the wind out of the sails with his 3ER inning of work. Dotel's recent patterns are disturbing and if the Sox need to score at least 5 to 7 runs for his once a week pissfest, then we're gonna continue to open the door for Minnesota that much more to keep it closer.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 03:32 PM
Danks inability to pitch past six is what I find frustrating. I don't see why fans are satisfied with six from him. .

Fans are "satisfied" with Danks because:

1. With all his faults and imperfections, Danks still has been arguably the most valuable, ballsiest pitcher on the [soon-to-be division-winning team]. While there are other Sox starters who are as good as Danks at USCF where they typically get big-time run support and, by extension, bigger margin for error to work with........ there is nobody better on the Sox away from USCF where a pitcher's toughness & skill get tested the most because the offense can't score nearly as much while the other team offense is typically at its most potent.

For comparison, on the Road (2008)

Golden god Buerhe: 79.2 ip, 52 runs (3-7 record)
................ Danks: 74.1 ip, 22 runs (6-1 record)


2. most fans reside in (White Sox) reality:

They remember a parade of hyped pitchers - from Rauch to Barcelo to Myette to Wright to Diaz to Munoz to Haeger to Tracey to DLS..... and other assorted can't miss first-rounders like Ring, Stumm, Honel, Broadway, McLollough, Gio Gonzalez. Hell, look at the brilliant Brandon McCarthy the last 3 years, or even at John Danks himself from 2007....

So in light of that kind of regular disappointment.... Can you blame Sox fans for appreciating the "imperfect" John Danks of 2008.....who, if Ozzie knew how to handle him just a little better at certain times, would be among top 5 pitchers in the league, numbers-wise? Speaking of which....

3. most Sox fans aren't indifferent to statistics: John Danks is arguably the best 85-pitch pitcher in AL. That's usually good for 5.1 to 6 innings. From 90th pitch on, however, opponents are hitting more than 150 OPS point higher against Danks as compared to his form in the earlier innings.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-23-2008, 03:55 PM
Fans are "satisfied" with Danks because:

1. With all his faults and imperfections, Danks still has been arguably the most valuable, ballsiest pitcher on the [soon-to-be division-winning team]. While there are other Sox starters who are as good as Danks at USCF where they typically get big-time run support and, by extension, bigger margin for error to work with........ there is nobody better on the Sox away from USCF where a pitcher's toughness & skill get tested the most because the offense can't score nearly as much while the other team offense is typically at its most potent.

For comparison, on the Road (2008)

Golden god Buerhe: 79.2 ip, 52 runs (3-7 record)
................ Danks: 74.1 ip, 22 runs (6-1 record)


2. most fans reside in (White Sox) reality:

They remember a parade of hyped pitchers - from Rauch to Barcelo to Myette to Wright to Diaz to Munoz to Haeger to Tracey to DLS..... and other assorted can't miss first-rounders like Ring, Stumm, Honel, Broadway, McLollough, Gio Gonzalez. Hell, look at the brilliant Brandon McCarthy the last 3 years, or even at John Danks himself from 2007....

So in light of that kind of regular disappointment.... Can you blame Sox fans for appreciating the "imperfect" John Danks of 2008.....who, if Ozzie knew how to handle him just a little better at certain times, would be among top 5 pitchers in the league, numbers-wise? Speaking of which....

3. most Sox fans aren't indifferent to statistics: John Danks is arguably the best 85-pitch pitcher in AL. That's usually good for 5.1 to 6 innings. From 90th pitch on, however, opponents are hitting more than 150 OPS point higher against Danks as compared to his form in the earlier innings.

You forgot mention that fans like Danks because:
1) He is only 23 years old and has markedly improved the last two seasons.
2) His fastball is consistently 1-3 miles per hour faster this year than last as he is getting stronger.
3) He is getting deeper into games this year than his rookie year; last year he was lucky to get past the 5th; this year he is very good for 6 or 7.
4) As he matures, his stamina will improve.
5) As opposed to Buehrle and Vazquez, he is getting better, his best years are ahead of him, and he has a very high ceiling.
6) He'll be the staff ace one day.
7) Did I mention that he's only 23?

Lefty34
08-23-2008, 04:04 PM
I think Danks is doing extremely well this year, and while he may struggle, there is no reason to put much blame on him. He is striking out around the same amount of people as he was last year (7.36 K/9), walking fewer hitters this year (2.38 BB/9) than the year previous (3.50 BB/9), and giving up HR's at a lower rate (0.72 HR/9). His BABIP is around average at .296, but his ERA+ is, given his age, a staggering 143. I think he will continue to give you well above-average starts, and again, there is no need to blame him all that much.

RadioheadRocks
08-24-2008, 01:34 AM
Give me a damn break. You are not serious right?

Wow, the guy is struggling the last 2 weeks and you guys already put him in the same shelf as Mike Jackson.

So all you smart ass Sox fans, what is Plan B you would give Ozzie right now for RH set up?

Anyone says Carrasco, I will puke. Carrasco is fine at what he does right now, but give me a break if you think he can set up for us.

I'm not putting Dotel on the same shelf as Mike Jackson. Basically I'm saying is that he's been inconsistent and that he has not been "lights out all year". Couple this past two weeks with a few other less than stellar outings (remember that fiasco in Wrigley back in June?) and you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately it's late August and we're in a dogfight with the Twins, and now is NOT the time of the season for Dotel to be "struggling for the past two weeks"; that being said, MY "Plan B" would be for Dotel to get his head out his ass.

Nellie_Fox
08-24-2008, 01:50 AM
Ozzie mismanaged several situations.

Is that really better? :shrug:Actually, yes. It isn't repetition after repetition of the same old "clever" phrase. It just says what you mean. If you can come up with a clever turn of phrase to liven up your writing, that's great. Constantly repeating the same hackneyed crap just shows a lack of creativity.

alohafri
08-24-2008, 02:44 PM
The booing IMO was not called for. Especially to the level of disgust the fans were showing.

Why do some people think that it is always the PERFORMER being booed? Ever give it a thought that it was the PERFORMANCE being booed, which NEEDED to be booed!

If the crowd started chanting "Dotel Sucks!", then you would be right. That would be uncalled for. But booing his performance on Friday night was called for.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 07:24 PM
Fans are "satisfied" with Danks because:

1. With all his faults and imperfections, Danks still has been arguably the most valuable, ballsiest pitcher on the [soon-to-be division-winning team]. While there are other Sox starters who are as good as Danks at USCF where they typically get big-time run support and, by extension, bigger margin for error to work with........ there is nobody better on the Sox away from USCF where a pitcher's toughness & skill get tested the most because the offense can't score nearly as much while the other team offense is typically at its most potent.

For comparison, on the Road (2008)

Golden god Buerhe: 79.2 ip, 52 runs (3-7 record)
................ Danks: 74.1 ip, 22 runs (6-1 record)


2. most fans reside in (White Sox) reality:

They remember a parade of hyped pitchers - from Rauch to Barcelo to Myette to Wright to Diaz to Munoz to Haeger to Tracey to DLS..... and other assorted can't miss first-rounders like Ring, Stumm, Honel, Broadway, McLollough, Gio Gonzalez. Hell, look at the brilliant Brandon McCarthy the last 3 years, or even at John Danks himself from 2007....

So in light of that kind of regular disappointment.... Can you blame Sox fans for appreciating the "imperfect" John Danks of 2008.....who, if Ozzie knew how to handle him just a little better at certain times, would be among top 5 pitchers in the league, numbers-wise? Speaking of which....

3. most Sox fans aren't indifferent to statistics: John Danks is arguably the best 85-pitch pitcher in AL. That's usually good for 5.1 to 6 innings. From 90th pitch on, however, opponents are hitting more than 150 OPS point higher against Danks as compared to his form in the earlier innings.


5 more runs for Buerhle today, incidently.

ChiSoxGirl
08-24-2008, 07:28 PM
5 more runs for Buerhle today, incidently.

Only two of which were earned, incidentally.

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Only two of which were earned, incidentally.

...unearned runs are counted just the same, incidentally.

Other good pitchers pitch over mistakes a lot more often this year, incidentally.


But I forget: in the latest CBA, it's clearly stipulated that Mark Buerhle reserves the right to give up 2-run shots to has-beens like Baldelli any time something occurs in the field that's not to his liking.


Besides, Swisher clearly tried to sabotage his start; he can't handle Mark being prettier than he is.

Harry Potter
08-24-2008, 08:00 PM
...unearned runs are counted just the same, incidentally.

Other good pitchers pitch over mistakes a lot more often this year, incidentally.


But I forget: in the latest CBA, it's clearly stipulated that Mark Buerhle reserves the right to give up 2-run shots to has-beens like Baldelli any time something occurs in the field that's not to his liking.


Besides, Swisher clearly tried to sabotage his start; he can't handle Mark being prettier than he is.

incidentally you prove yourself to be a :dtroll: more and more each day

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Why do some people think that it is always the PERFORMER being booed? Ever give it a thought that it was the PERFORMANCE being booed, which NEEDED to be booed!

If the crowd started chanting "Dotel Sucks!", then you would be right. That would be uncalled for. But booing his performance on Friday night was called for.

I know it sounds weird considering I can criticise up a storm when the team is underperforming...

But I don't boo Sox players at the Cell - unless it's for non-effort, which is fairly rare.

Part of it is being that we usually go the park as part of an "outing", and most people I am with are not hard-core Sox fans or even baseball fans for that matter, so I tend to control myself better. :cool:

But another part of it is.... it's simply counter-productive - especially so when it comes to younger or more emotional players like Dotel. It works against the idea of a Homefield advantage, if nothing else.

And yes, people who booed and screamed obsenities to Grossman during training camp, or for that matter, in an exhibition game in which he did the right thing by not forcing it into coverage... are some kind of misguided, to use a PG-13 term.

delben91
08-24-2008, 08:59 PM
...unearned runs are counted just the same, incidentally.

Other good pitchers pitch over mistakes a lot more often this year, incidentally.


But I forget: in the latest CBA, it's clearly stipulated that Mark Buerhle reserves the right to give up 2-run shots to has-beens like Baldelli any time something occurs in the field that's not to his liking.


Besides, Swisher clearly tried to sabotage his start; he can't handle Mark being prettier than he is.

It's all Lance Broadway's fault! He sucks so horribly that his negative energy is coming all the way up from Charlotte and destroying the Sox!

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 09:20 PM
It's all Lance Broadway's fault! He sucks so horribly that his negative energy is coming all the way up from Charlotte and destroying the Sox!

I know, right!

ChiSoxGirl
08-24-2008, 10:56 PM
...unearned runs are counted just the same, incidentally.

Other good pitchers pitch over mistakes a lot more often this year, incidentally.


But I forget: in the latest CBA, it's clearly stipulated that Mark Buerhle reserves the right to give up 2-run shots to has-beens like Baldelli any time something occurs in the field that's not to his liking.


Besides, Swisher clearly tried to sabotage his start; he can't handle Mark being prettier than he is.

Not really because unearned runs don't count in the figuring of a pitcher's EARNED Run Average.

And by the way, who is this Mark Buerhle you speak of? :?: :wink:

Lefty34
08-24-2008, 11:35 PM
Not really because unearned runs don't count in the figuring of a pitcher's EARNED Run Average.

And by the way, who is this Mark Buerhle you speak of? :?: :wink:

Well they do when you look at Buehrle's RA, 4.50 per game, which is higher than his ERA of 3.91. His DERA is 4.06, which is not higher than his NRA of 4.14, meaning he has not been playing in front of an above-average defense. No reason to fret, though, his BABIP is an above-average .311, meaning he has been unlucky on defense and that his BABIP will begin to regress towards the mean, meaning his ERA will go down.

ChiSoxGirl
08-24-2008, 11:45 PM
Well they do when you look at Buehrle's RA, 4.50 per game, which is higher than his ERA of 3.91. His DERA is 4.06, which is not higher than his NRA of 4.14, meaning he has not been playing in front of an above-average defense. No reason to fret, though, his BABIP is an above-average .311, meaning he has been unlucky on defense and that his BABIP will begin to regress towards the mean, meaning his ERA will go down.

:thud: I've always thought I knew a lot about baseball, but not after reading THIS! :mg:

Adele_H
08-24-2008, 11:54 PM
Not really because unearned runs don't count in the figuring of a pitcher's EARNED Run Average.



What a great game today it was: Sox handily defeated the Rays 6 Earned Runs to 3 Earned Runs.

I mean, good thing it wasn't an extra inning nail-biter that among other things forced Jenks to pitch 2 innings, or anything like that...

And of course had the Sox lost today [w/o Doug Eddings gift], the game wouldn't have had any bearing on the standings 'cuz it would have gone into the 'Unearned Loss' category, probably expunged from the record altogether upon appeal at some point.

DumpJerry
08-24-2008, 11:55 PM
Well they do when you look at Buehrle's RA, 4.50 per game, which is higher than his ERA of 3.91. His DERA is 4.06, which is not higher than his NRA of 4.14, meaning he has not been playing in front of an above-average defense. No reason to fret, though, his BABIP is an above-average .311, meaning he has been unlucky on defense and that his BABIP will begin to regress towards the mean, meaning his ERA will go down.
Wow. I need to sit down. My head is spinning.

DumpJerry
08-24-2008, 11:58 PM
And of course had the Sox lost today [w/o Doug Eddings gift], the game wouldn't have had any bearing on the standings 'cuz it would have gone into the 'Unearned Loss' category, probably expunged from the record altogether upon appeal at some point.
Eddings made the correct call. Just because the situation does not come up very often (because infielders are taught to get the Hell out of the way when they toss the ball during a run-down), does not make it a "gift."

ChiSoxGirl
08-25-2008, 12:01 AM
What a great game today it was: Sox handily defeated the Rays 6 Earned Runs to 3 Earned Runs.

I mean, good thing it wasn't an extra inning nail-biter that among other things forced Jenks to pitch 2 innings, or anything like that...

And of course had the Sox lost today [w/o Doug Eddings gift], the game wouldn't have had any bearing on the standings 'cuz it would have gone into the 'Unearned Loss' category, probably expunged from the record altogether upon appeal at some point.

:rolleyes:. Geeze, sorry I even posted in this thread.

ChiSoxGirl
08-25-2008, 12:02 AM
Wow. I need to sit down. My head is spinning.

Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way after reading Lefty34's post! Yikes!!!

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 12:09 AM
Well they do when you look at Buehrle's RA, 4.50 per game, which is higher than his ERA of 3.91. His DERA is 4.06, which is not higher than his NRA of 4.14, meaning he has not been playing in front of an above-average defense. No reason to fret, though, his BABIP is an above-average .311, meaning he has been unlucky on defense and that his BABIP will begin to regress towards the mean, meaning his ERA will go down.

The only number that matters this season is.... Mark's 4.60 RA, which is actually pretty good if not exactly ace-like.

Unfortunately, his Road RA is an ugly 5.90 runs a game which means that in games in hostile environments where the Sox offense needs him by far the most (as they can mash at USCF like nobody's business), Burly lays an egg more often than not.

Lefty34
08-25-2008, 12:10 AM
Wow. I need to sit down. My head is spinning.

Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way after reading Lefty34's post! Yikes!!!

Sorry about that, I made it seem like I know more about those numbers than I actually do. Can I do the math behind DERA and understand how BABIP will begin to regress towards the mean? Probably, but only after a long session with my old Statistics and Calc 3 book, and even then I'm not so sure. I DO know what those numbers represent, though, and their premise and use makes sense to me. If asked for a quick explanation of those things, I would gladly oblige (or you could just look at the Baseball Prospectus website).

Lefty34
08-25-2008, 12:22 AM
The only number that matters this season is.... Mark's 4.60 RA, which is actually pretty good if not exactly ace-like.


Actually, no. Buehrle's RA+ (RA adjusted for league and park factors) is 1.05, which puts him 20th in the AL in that category, or just very slightly above average.

Nellie_Fox
08-25-2008, 01:20 AM
But I don't boo Sox players at the Cell - unless it's for non-effort, which is fairly rare ... But another part of it is.... it's simply counter-productive - especially so when it comes to younger or more emotional players like Dotel. It works against the idea of a Homefield advantage, if nothing else.My position on booing exactly. Unless it's for lack of effort, I just don't see how anyone thinks it will help.

Your outfielder nonchalants a catch, turning his back to the infield and allowing the opposing catcher to move up a base(not that I saw anything like that in todays game?) Yeah, that's dogging it. He should hear it.

Your hitter stands at home plate to admire his home run and it hits the wall, and he can't even get to second? Have at it.

He fails to do what he's out there to do despite his best effort? Maybe a bad pitch selection, or an ill-advised attempt to go to third? Booing accomplishes nothing in those cases.

alohafri
08-25-2008, 08:45 AM
But another part of it is.... it's simply counter-productive - especially so when it comes to younger or more emotional players like Dotel. It works against the idea of a Homefield advantage, if nothing else.

And yes, people who booed and screamed obsenities to Grossman during training camp, or for that matter, in an exhibition game in which he did the right thing by not forcing it into coverage... are some kind of misguided, to use a PG-13 term.

So we shouldn't let people know when they screwed up somehow? Whether it was their fault or not? Hey, cool! Thanks for showing up today! You were horrible, but we are damn glad you are here!

Don't get booing confused with screaming obsenities!

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 02:44 PM
So we shouldn't let people know when they screwed up somehow?

Do you honestly think Dotel doen't know he ****ed up and let his team(mates) down? Give me a break!

And do you think your booing and mocking of Dotel at home, where, at least in theory, a player should have some kind of comfort zone, some kind of emotional refuge - "Homefield advantage" and all..... will help him do better in the future - which is the ONLY thing that matters in the end? Or will it only make him more out-of-control, more self-conscious and thus (even) less productive?

I am sure when at your own place of employment, when you are having a really bad day, it would be super helpful if you were heckled, cursed as you tried to correct the mistakes....:rolleyes:

Look. Far be it from me to speak for the pollyannarific, shrill jock-worshipper crowd. You know I have no problem ripping deserving players to shreds; one of the main functions of a message board, in fact, is to provide that out-let..... But I feel that getting on the struggling player's case when he/she is at their most vulnerable, while almost cathartic for the heckler, does little but HURT the player and, by extension, the team itself.

southside rocks
08-25-2008, 02:53 PM
Look. Far be it from me to speak for the pollyannarific, shrill jock-worshipper crowd. You know I have no problem ripping deserving players to shreds; one of the main functions of a message board, in fact, is to provide that out-let..... But I feel that getting on the struggling player's case when he/she is at their most vulnerable, while almost cathartic for the heckler, does little but HURT the player and, by extension, the team itself.

Joe Morgan and Jon Miller were discussing this subject, specifically with respect to Jimmy Rollins, during last night's ballgame. Morgan, who is several annoying things but who did play the game for many years and has a perspective that I can never achieve, said that it does hurt the player, and the team, when fans don't show support when the player is struggling.

I guess the fans in Philly have been giving Rollins a pretty bad time recently during the slump that he's mired in.

I'll boo a player for being a jerk. I'll never boo a player for trying and missing. Although several times lately I've wanted to shake Dotel until his head rattles, I did not boo him when I was at the games when he imploded. I am pretty sure he feels ****ty enough without that.

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 03:03 PM
Joe Morgan and Jon Miller were discussing this subject, specifically with respect to Jimmy Rollins, during last night's ballgame. Morgan, who is several annoying things but who did play the game for many years and has a perspective that I can never achieve, said that it does hurt the player, and the team, when fans don't show support when the player is struggling..

Funny thing is, you how they always say that the true test of character is how you respond to adversity. Real fans are measured by whether or not they abandon the team during the times of misery &
abject failure - and not just by how hard they wave the proverbial fan-flag during the times of triumph & rainbows.

Well, why can't the same thing apply to individual players? Sometimes I feel kinda guilty for turning on Konerko, for instance, when Kong this year arguably needs all the positive vibes and support he can get. But I would never think of booing him on the field.

alohafri
08-25-2008, 03:10 PM
And do you think your booing and mocking of Dotel at home, where, at least in theory, a player should have some kind of comfort zone, some kind of emotional refuge - "Homefield advantage" and all..... will help him do better in the future - which is the ONLY thing that matters in the end? Or will it only make him more out-of-control, more self-conscious and thus (even) less productive?

I am sure when at your own place of employment, when you are having a really bad day, it would be super helpful if you were heckled, cursed as you tried to correct the mistakes....:rolleyes:

Look. Far be it from me to speak for the pollyannarific, shrill jock-worshipper crowd. You know I have no problem ripping deserving players to shreds; one of the main functions of a message board, in fact, is to provide that out-let..... But I feel that getting on the struggling player's case when he/she is at their most vulnerable, while almost cathartic for the heckler, does little but HURT the player and, by extension, the team itself.

Once again, I'm not talking ripping, heckling, cursing. I'm talking about the time honored tradition of booing. Yelling "Dotel you piece of ****, why don't you stand in front of a train" has no business anywhere. However, I believe that players expect to be booed when they screw up somehow.

And if I somehow screw up in my job, I get heckled unmercifully. I have a pretty thick skin. In the words of Archie Bunker, "if it's too hot in the kitchen, stay away from the cook."

TDog
08-25-2008, 03:14 PM
Actually, yes. It isn't repetition after repetition of the same old "clever" phrase. It just says what you mean. If you can come up with a clever turn of phrase to liven up your writing, that's great. Constantly repeating the same hackneyed crap just shows a lack of creativity.

Essentially, it's the difference between someone who is content with being the person who quotes others and the person who aspires to be quoted by others -- compounded by the fact that some people like to quote others in a distasteful way.

For example, W.P. Kinsella was inspired when he wrote, "If you build it, he will come." The numerous writers and pundits who since have repeated the phrase and variations of it to make their points show they don't have any ideas of their own.

Adele_H
08-25-2008, 03:22 PM
I guess the fans in Philly have been giving Rollins a pretty bad time recently during the slump that he's mired in.

Fans in Philly would boo Jesus. What a loathsome breed.



That, and Kenny should be working the phones to use this opportunity and get Rollins in the off-season on the cheap.

alohafri
08-25-2008, 03:49 PM
Fans in Philly would boo Jesus. What a loathsome breed.



That, and Kenny should be working the phones to use this opportunity and get Rollins in the off-season on the cheap.

Why on the cheap? Give them what he is worth!

I think the only guy they never booed in Philly was Aaron Rowand!