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Hitmen77
08-21-2008, 05:07 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

balke
08-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Yeah but seriously, Josh Fogg and Wells? Come on KW what the heck?

Hehe, oops mental error.

hi im skot
08-21-2008, 05:20 PM
Yeah but seriously, Josh Fogg and Benson? Come on KW what the heck?


http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/benson.jpg

"Hey, what's wrong with me?!"

TSXNaVi
08-21-2008, 05:22 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

Awesome post

God do I Love #2:bandance:

DickAllen72
08-21-2008, 05:26 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

Well, two out of three isn't bad. He was spot on with #2 & #3, but he got #1 wrong. Acquiring Cabrera didn't really put the Tigers in position to contend with the Sox. :cool:

spawn
08-21-2008, 05:27 PM
Well, two out of three isn't bad. He was spot on with #2 & #3, but he got #1 wrong. Acquiring Cabrera didn't do much to help the Tigers contend with the Sox. :cool:
:rolling: :thumbsup:

hose
08-21-2008, 05:31 PM
I would like to see the sarcastic remarks Boers and Bernstein had for Kenny.

jackbrohamer
08-21-2008, 05:32 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.

And #2 puts the lie to Phil Rogers' column a few weeks ago where he took the position that NOBODY knew that Carlos Quentin would be as good as he turned out to be.

kittle42
08-21-2008, 05:36 PM
I still stand by my mocking of his .50/$1 comment.

FedEx227
08-21-2008, 05:39 PM
Many people had a feeling Quentin would be good. Arizona only got rid of him because he didn't have a spot on their team, or there was nobody with his injury past that they could justify benching for him, I don't fault them at all for making the deal.

It's not as if he came out of NOWHERE. His 4-year minor league averages were .313/.413/.527, 13 HR, 64 RBI in just about 94 games, put those out to 162 and you're looking at a .313/.413/.527, 22 HR, 108 RBI.

It was never about playing ability, it was all about health for him.

Foulke You
08-21-2008, 05:40 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.

And #2 puts the lie to Phil Rogers' column a few weeks ago where he took the position that NOBODY knew that Carlos Quentin would be as good as he turned out to be.
I remember the Sun Times crucified KW for his offseason moves. Swisher was viewed as a consolation prize for losing out on Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, and Fukudome. Quentin and Ramirez were viewed as players that wouldn't help the team now. I specifically remember Greg Couch (a.k.a. Mariotti Jr.) lampooning KW for the Alexei Ramirez signing. The whole tone of the article was "is that the best you can do?". If the Sox win the division this year, KW will be vindicated. He probably is too classy to jump up and down and say "I told you so" even though he has every right to.

jabrch
08-21-2008, 06:04 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.

Most of the idiots here also did...

voodoochile
08-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Most of the idiots here also did...

And what's truly scary is they are still convinced they are right and KW just got lucky...

Noneck
08-21-2008, 06:20 PM
He has done a great job this year so far (I am still hoping for more pitching help before 9/1) but his legacy will be written based on the outcome of the season and of course what was accomplished during his tenure as GM of the Sox.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 06:20 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.


Neither of those players filled the CF role Kenny looked to Fukudome and Hunter to fill. It's really those players vs. Swisher...

areilly
08-21-2008, 06:25 PM
I call bull**** on threads like this, as though Kenny Williams spent the winter sitting high atop his ivory tower at 35th and Shields gazing into a crystal ball which allowed him to read the minds of the Baseball Gods themselves.

"Baseball Gods, who should I use to patch up my questionable rotation?"

"Stay with the one called 'Floyd', young Kenneth, for he shall win games and throw numerous strikes."

"Baseball Gods, my plans for centerfield have fallen to pieces. How can I sift through the wreckage I've created with my reckless bravado?"

"Lay faith true in two riders from the West. He who Swishes will arrive loudly, and the other will arrive in quiet. The quiet man will save your band of misfits, young Kenneth, and he will save them when they need it most. You will know him not by name, but by the trail of shattered sticks left in his wake."

**** that. His gamble paid off and he built himself a world-class softball team whose position has less to do with its own success than it does at least two other teams' failures. I, for one, am still laughing.

hawkjt
08-21-2008, 06:29 PM
I would like to see the sarcastic remarks Boers and Bernstein had for Kenny.

These arsewipes are probably still making fun of kenny ...
They never admit to being wrong.
They will mock the sox till they get another ring and then it will be because it was a bad year for baseball overall.

voodoochile
08-21-2008, 06:39 PM
I call bull**** on threads like this, as though Kenny Williams spent the winter sitting high atop his ivory tower at 35th and Shields gazing into a crystal ball which allowed him to read the minds of the Baseball Gods themselves.

"Baseball Gods, who should I use to patch up my questionable rotation?"

"Stay with the one called 'Floyd', young Kenneth, for he shall win games and throw numerous strikes."

"Baseball Gods, my plans for centerfield have fallen to pieces. How can I sift through the wreckage I've created with my reckless bravado?"

"Lay faith true in two riders from the West. He who Swishes will arrive loudly, and the other will arrive in quiet. The quiet man will save your band of misfits, young Kenneth, and he will save them when they need it most. You will know him not by name, but by the trail of shattered sticks left in his wake."

**** that. His gamble paid off and he built himself a world-class softball team whose position has less to do with its own success than it does at least two other teams' failures. I, for one, am still laughing.

Ta-DAAAAAA!!!

One could argue that KW showed his faith in Floyd and Danks when he traded away Garland, said, "our pitching will be fine" and then didn't pursue any other starters, but far be it from me to get in the way of your gloating.

Reckless bravado? He made quality offers for both Hunter and Fukudome (better than the flubbies wans't it?) but got rejected by Hunter who without warning or a chance to match signed with the Angels and Fukdome (is he really worth that money in hindsight?) who didn't want to play CF on a regular basis. So KW made the most of it he could, acquired a good young player with a solid bat who could play CF.

The failings of those two superior teams you mention seem to have more to do with the way those teams were constructed than pure luck. Cleveland put together a good not great pitching team and neglected the offense. When Hafner went down they were toast. Detroit went the other way and in fairness to you, fits the description of a softball team much better - all hit, no defense, no pitching - especially relief pitching and both of these teams built by their GM's and revered by you have proven to be broken models.

Meanwhile KW shored up the weakest positions he had and built depth. He shored up the IF defense and offense by adding Cabrera. He found a guy to play CF who can hit. He took chances on one young ball player in particular (TCQ) and was dead on in his analysis. TCM is really gravy. I doubt anyone expected him to be this good this fast save maybe his Mom. KW also rebuilt the bullpen - a major weakness last year and boy has he been proven right especially after Linebrink went down and Dotel took over without so much as a blink.

So go ahead and laugh. Go ahead and jeer. The fact is you are dead wrong and KW is correct. The fact that you cannot admit it says more about your ego than it does about KW's abilities...

sullythered
08-21-2008, 06:41 PM
I call bull**** on threads like this, as though Kenny Williams spent the winter sitting high atop his ivory tower at 35th and Shields gazing into a crystal ball which allowed him to read the minds of the Baseball Gods themselves.

"Baseball Gods, who should I use to patch up my questionable rotation?"

"Stay with the one called 'Floyd', young Kenneth, for he shall win games and throw numerous strikes."

"Baseball Gods, my plans for centerfield have fallen to pieces. How can I sift through the wreckage I've created with my reckless bravado?"

"Lay faith true in two riders from the West. He who Swishes will arrive loudly, and the other will arrive in quiet. The quiet man will save your band of misfits, young Kenneth, and he will save them when they need it most. You will know him not by name, but by the trail of shattered sticks left in his wake."

**** that. His gamble paid off and he built himself a world-class softball team whose position has less to do with its own success than it does at least two other teams' failures. I, for one, am still laughing.
What in the hell are you talking about?

More to do with other teams failures??? One team drastically underperformed in our division (the Indians), and one team has overperformed to an even more drastic degree (the Twins). The Tigers never never never had the pitching to win.

The Sox success has EVERYTHING to do with their own play. Namely the play of the guys that Kenny picked up recently.

Kenny Williams takes "gambles" all the time. Way more often than not, they pay off. When it continues to happen time after time after time, the possibility that it is luck ends.

You can "call bull****" all you want, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 06:53 PM
Neither of those players filled the CF role Kenny looked to Fukudome and Hunter to fill. It's really those players vs. Swisher...
Okeedokee.

Swish's OPS is 35 points higher, he's 4 years younger and costs half as much as Fukudome.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:00 PM
Okeedokee.

Swish's OPS is 35 points higher, he's 4 years younger and costs half as much as Fukudome.

The both suck. :shrug:

pmck003
08-21-2008, 07:03 PM
Kenny deserved alot of credit, but I would assume the Sox's scouts also played a part.

Just curious if anyone knows the stat that is supposed to show how much a player has won/lost a game? I don't think it tells the whole story, but I would be curious to see it on Swish.

gobears1987
08-21-2008, 07:06 PM
Neither of those players filled the CF role Kenny looked to Fukudome and Hunter to fill. It's really those players vs. Swisher...
I've got a question for you. Do you write for the Sun Times? Seriously, your posts lead me to no other conclusion.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:07 PM
The both suck. :shrug:
Nope, sorry dude.

Swish is fifth in the AL in OPS among CFer's. That's pretty good, at least. He's had some really big hits to go along with that. He's not a great CFer, defensively, but neither is Fukudome.

And Torriiii cost more than what we have in the federal reserve. Kenny made the right move.

Oh, and Gio and Sweeney blow, and the HOFer's arm fell off. So it was a good move all around.

kitekrazy
08-21-2008, 07:08 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.


Fuku wanted to be a Cub. What was Kenny going to do?

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:08 PM
Kenny deserved alot of credit, but I would assume the Sox's scouts also played a part.

Just curious if anyone knows the stat that is supposed to show how much a player has won/lost a game? I don't think it tells the whole story, but I would be curious to see it on Swish.

I posted his VORP here a few days ago. According to that, over the course of a season he's produced 8 more runs than a replacement level CF would, not accounting for defense. So we could be playing a backup CF (someone who can actually play the position) and pretty much be in better shape.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:09 PM
Nope, sorry dude.

Swish is fifth in the AL in OPS among CFer's. That's pretty good, at least. He's had some really big hits to go along with that. He's not a great CFer, defensively, but neither is Fukudome.

And Torriiii cost more than what we have in the federal reserve. Kenny made the right move.

Oh, and Gio and Sweeney blow, and the HOFer's arm fell off. So it was a good move all around.

See my last post.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:10 PM
I've got a question for you. Do you write for the Sun Times? Seriously, your posts lead me to no other conclusion.

Except that I'm an adamant Ozzie admirer...

Daver
08-21-2008, 07:11 PM
I posted his VORP here a few days ago. According to that, over the course of a season he's produced 8 more runs than a replacement level CF would, not accounting for defense. So we could be playing a backup CF (someone who can actually play the position) and pretty much be in better shape.

That stat has no basis in fact or reality, no sane or rational person would give it any attention.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:14 PM
That stat has no basis in fact or reality, no sane or rational person would give it any attention.

You know, I tend to agree that stats in general are very misleading. But I'm responding to stats with stats. And if you're going to stand by a stat, VORP is a good one. It takes into consideration the rest of the league, as well as most other stats, instead of cherry-picking the stats that cater to an argument.

I don't need stats to tell me that Nick Swisher hasn't had a very good season. But evidently a lot of people on here do.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:15 PM
See my last post.
And if I was simulating a season on MLB for my Xbox that post might mean a damn thing to me.

If you don't think Nick Swisher has helped us win a bunch of games this year, you aren't watching the games.

Direct statistical analysis of things that happen on the field may swing my opinion (Batting average, on base percentage, slugging, ect.) Convoluted theoreticals will not.

And I know the smarty pants people here like to discount the value of a guy with a positive attitude, but it exists. On a baseball team, in an office, in a family, it makes a big difference.

kitekrazy
08-21-2008, 07:16 PM
Okeedokee.

Swish's OPS is 35 points higher, he's 4 years younger and costs half as much as Fukudome.

It seems throwing big $$$$ at Japanese players is getting more of a bigger risk. Outside of Ichiro it doesn't take long for many of them to get old quick once they play in the states.

These players should not be considered for rookie of the year either.

Daver
08-21-2008, 07:18 PM
You know, I tend to agree that stats in general are very misleading. But I'm responding to stats with stats. And if you're going to stand by a stat, VORP is a good one. It takes into consideration the rest of the league, as well as most other stats, instead of cherry-picking the stats that cater to an argument.

I don't need stats to tell me that Nick Swisher hasn't had a very good season. But evidently a lot of people on here do.

And there you are approaching things backwards again, because you are using a stat that is meaningless to argue against people that are using stats that are actually based on reality.

Now I realize that reality is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but a small effort towards accepting it might help.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:19 PM
And if I was simulating a season on MLB for my Xbox that post might mean a damn thing to me.

If you don't think Nick Swisher has helped us win a bunch of games this year, you aren't watching the games.

Direct statistical analysis of things that happen on the field may swing my opinion (Batting average, on base percentage, slugging, ect.) Convoluted theoreticals will not.

And I know the smarty pants people here like to discount the value of a guy with a positive attitude, but it exists. On a baseball team, in an office, in a family, it makes a big difference.

Players have effects on games. Of course you're going to remember the big hits. You're a fan. But how many times has he mailed it in? And how many times did he mail it in in games we needed him?

All everyday players will have positive and negative effects on games. Look at Juan Uribe. He's had some big hits in a few games, games where no one else did. Does that mean he's had a good season at the plate? Does that mean there isn't a lot of people who, in his role, couldn't have had more of a positive effect (or at least less of a negative effect)?

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:23 PM
And there you are approaching things backwards again, because you are using a stat that is meaningless to argue against people that are using stats that are actually based on reality.

Now I realize that reality is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but a small effort towards accepting it might help.

I see Daver. You only respect the statistics that prove your point, without qualifying them with situations.

Nick Swisher is a great player because he has a great OBP. Forget he's walking in situations where pitchers want him to walk and it isn't producing runs. Forget that his batting average with RISP is poor. OBP is king in Daver's world. All hail Nick Swisher.

Nick Swisher should win the MVP.

kitekrazy
08-21-2008, 07:23 PM
I would like to see the sarcastic remarks Boers and Bernstein had for Kenny.

Before the season started they mentioned the Sox might have a good chance of winning the division over Cleveland and Detroit because of the crackdown of roids.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:28 PM
Players have effects on games. Of course you're going to remember the big hits. You're a fan. But how many times has he mailed it in? And how many times did he mail it in in games we needed him?

All everyday players will have positive and negative effects on games. Look at Juan Uribe. He's had some big hits in a few games, games where no one else did. Does that mean he's had a good season at the plate? Does that mean there isn't a lot of people who, in his role, couldn't have had more of a positive effect (or at least less of a negative effect)?
I'll give you that Swish went through a funk, but the fact that he NEVER mailed it in was what made it a lot easier to deal with. He kept a great attitude and put forth maximum effort even when he was struggling, and that effects the team. The guy hasn't been consistant at the plate all season long, but he has helped us win games. That's why VORP is a bull**** video game stat. It tells you statistical "value" as if it is real world "value." Yes I think Swisher has been more "valuable" than his VORP would have you believe.

And me being a fan has nothing to do with me noticing when one of my teams players gets more big hits than others.

I really get the feeling you may have some bitterness over your early prediction on this trade being dead wrong. Particularly when speaking of the guys we gave up.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I'll give you that Swish went through a funk, but the fact that he NEVER mailed it in was what made it a lot easier to deal with. He kept a great attitude and put forth maximum effort even when he was struggling, and that effects the team. The guy hasn't been consistant at the plate all season long, but he has helped us win games. That's why VORP is a bull**** video game stat. It tells you statistical "value" as if it is real world "value." Yes I think Swisher has been more "valuable" than his VORP would have you believe.

And me being a fan has nothing to do with me noticing when one of my teams players gets more big hits than others.

I really get the feeling you may have some bitterness over your early prediction on this trade being dead wrong. Particularly when speaking of the guys we gave up.

Mailing it in was a poor word choice. And I like Nick Swisher as a person. He's a tremendous community leader.

But he's a large reason we're in a division race as opposed to preparing for the playoffs. He's been hot lately, and staying hot the rest of the year would go a long way in repairing a terrible season.

I've seen Nick strike out or pop up a lot in games when we needed a hit. You haven't noticed that?

cards press box
08-21-2008, 07:33 PM
Ta-DAAAAAA!!!

So go ahead and laugh. Go ahead and jeer. The fact is you are dead wrong and KW is correct. The fact that you cannot admit it says more about your ego than it does about KW's abilities...

You are 100% on the money with this post. Kenny Williams had, without a doubt, a brilliant off-season. Columnists like Couch and the blogger at the Sun-Times are awfully quick to take pot shots but are a lot slower at acknowleding the first-rate job that Williams has done.

I'm a big fan of Roland Hemond but I suspect that he would agree with me that Williams is likely the best GM that the White Sox have ever had. What's more, Ozzie Guillen is the best manager that the White Sox have had since Al Lopez.

Neither of those players filled the CF role Kenny looked to Fukudome and Hunter to fill. It's really those players vs. Swisher...

Nick Swisher has been a stalwart for the White Sox and when the season is over, his statistics will be more impressive that some people think.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:38 PM
Nick Swisher has been a stalwart for the White Sox and when the season is over, his statistics will be more impressive that some people think.

Is he going to bat .280+ or hit 40 homers?

Because I thought he was going to hit .240 with 25 homers like he's on pace to.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Mailing it in was a poor word choice. And I like Nick Swisher as a person. He's a tremendous community leader.

But he's a large reason we're in a division race as opposed to preparing for the playoffs. He's been hot lately, and staying hot the rest of the year would go a long way in repairing a terrible season.

I've seen Nick strike out or pop up a lot in games when we needed a hit. You haven't noticed that?
Sure I have. As a matter of fact, early on I was comparing him to Ron Freakin' Karkovice. But, what can I say, the guy has won me over. He's really turned it around this year, and he's on pace for 26 bombs with 76 RBI. That's not bad at all. That combined with his helping keep our other guys in a positive frame of mind, I think he's got value. More value than his VORP coldly states.

Intangibles count for something.

Daver
08-21-2008, 07:39 PM
I see Daver. You only respect the statistics that prove your point, without qualifying them with situations.

Nick Swisher is a great player because he has a great OBP. Forget he's walking in situations where pitchers want him to walk and it isn't producing runs. Forget that his batting average with RISP is poor. OBP is king in Daver's world. All hail Nick Swisher.

Nick Swisher should win the MVP.

I really don't have a point, Swisher isn't an all star, and probably never will be, but he is contributing, none of the prospects that were traded for him would be.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone so grossly over value minor league talent like you do, especially when it comes to pitchers.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:42 PM
I really don't have a point, Swisher isn't an all star, and probably never will be, but he is contributing, none of the prospects that were traded for him would be.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone so grossly over value minor league talent like you do, especially when it comes to pitchers.

I think we're just at different ends of the spectrum when it comes to prospects. I think they have tremendous value, you think they have no value.

We're probably both wrong. :shrug:

munchman33
08-21-2008, 07:45 PM
Sure I have. As a matter of fact, early on I was comparing him to Ron Freakin' Karkovice. But, what can I say, the guy has won me over. He's really turned it around this year, and he's on pace for 26 bombs with 76 RBI. That's not bad at all. That combined with his helping keep our other guys in a positive frame of mind, I think he's got value. More value than his VORP coldly states.

Intangibles count for something.

You're right, all in all that seems like a pretty decent season. Not great, not necessarily good. But decent.

Let me ask you this though. Would you rather have those numbers from a consistent player, or someone who's just going to throw those numbers up over the course of six weeks?

The way I see it, despite Swisher's final numbers, he was SO INCREDIBLY BAD for such a long time, that despite his final numbers, the season as a whole was bad. He spent more than half the season looking completely inept at the plate.

pmck003
08-21-2008, 07:49 PM
I think the jury is still out on Swisher; not that it matters cause the Quentin and Ramirez deals (along with not overpaying for other players) makes Kenny awesome.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:54 PM
You're right, all in all that seems like a pretty decent season. Not great, not necessarily good. But decent.

Let me ask you this though. Would you rather have those numbers from a consistent player, or someone who's just going to throw those numbers up over the course of six weeks?

The way I see it, despite Swisher's final numbers, he was SO INCREDIBLY BAD for such a long time, that despite his final numbers, the season as a whole was bad. He spent more than half the season looking completely inept at the plate.
And again you're discounting the intangibles he brings.

Also, it would be less emotionally difficult for us as fans if he was consistent, but super hot stretches are more valuable than consistency in the games in which he is on fire. I'm not sure that one 26 and 76 is much better than the other.

kitekrazy
08-21-2008, 07:55 PM
And what's truly scary is they are still convinced they are right and KW just got lucky...

Luck does play an important part. Bill Polian would be the first to admit that.

Imagine if he took Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning, Rickey Williams over Edgerin James?

No one thought this team's veterans would choke like this and the kids step up.

balke
08-21-2008, 07:56 PM
I see Daver. You only respect the statistics that prove your point, without qualifying them with situations.

Nick Swisher is a great player because he has a great OBP. Forget he's walking in situations where pitchers want him to walk and it isn't producing runs. Forget that his batting average with RISP is poor. OBP is king in Daver's world. All hail Nick Swisher.

Nick Swisher should win the MVP.

As much as it makes me wanna vomit, I agree with you mostly on this. Swisher has had maybe a handful of games where his hits meant something. For the most part, Swisher has been a feaster on bad pitchers this season. If the Sox scored 8 runs, Swisher probably did something that game. If the game is close and low scoring, there's a good chance he left 5+ on base.

Prove me wrong, but this is generally the impression I get of Swish. To be honest I haven't looked up the stats on it, but this is how it has felt up til the last few games where he seems to finally consistantly be hitting. (P.S. so has the majority of the team)

sullythered
08-21-2008, 07:57 PM
You're right, all in all that seems like a pretty decent season. Not great, not necessarily good. But decent.

Let me ask you this though. Would you rather have those numbers from a consistent player, or someone who's just going to throw those numbers up over the course of six weeks?

The way I see it, despite Swisher's final numbers, he was SO INCREDIBLY BAD for such a long time, that despite his final numbers, the season as a whole was bad. He spent more than half the season looking completely inept at the plate.

Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department...:D:

nysox35
08-21-2008, 08:00 PM
I call bull**** on threads like this, as though Kenny Williams spent the winter sitting high atop his ivory tower at 35th and Shields gazing into a crystal ball which allowed him to read the minds of the Baseball Gods themselves.

"Baseball Gods, who should I use to patch up my questionable rotation?"

"Stay with the one called 'Floyd', young Kenneth, for he shall win games and throw numerous strikes."

"Baseball Gods, my plans for centerfield have fallen to pieces. How can I sift through the wreckage I've created with my reckless bravado?"

"Lay faith true in two riders from the West. He who Swishes will arrive loudly, and the other will arrive in quiet. The quiet man will save your band of misfits, young Kenneth, and he will save them when they need it most. You will know him not by name, but by the trail of shattered sticks left in his wake."

**** that. His gamble paid off and he built himself a world-class softball team whose position has less to do with its own success than it does at least two other teams' failures. I, for one, am still laughing.

Congrats on writing one of the most annoying posts I have seen in a long time!

munchman33
08-21-2008, 08:01 PM
Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department...:D:

Did I mention that my point is despite his final numbers. :cool:

munchman33
08-21-2008, 08:01 PM
And again you're discounting the intangibles he brings.

Also, it would be less emotionally difficult for us as fans if he was consistent, but super hot stretches are more valuable than consistency in the games in which he is on fire. I'm not sure that one 26 and 76 is much better than the other.

Is bad defense in center an intangible?

sullythered
08-21-2008, 08:06 PM
Is bad defense in center an intangible?
Yeah, unfortunately I think he's playing a little out of position. I do think, however, that that is not his fault, and that Ozzie has done a nice job of minimizing that problem (getting BA out there in late situations, and so forth).

What I meant by intangibles was his ability to put smiles on mopey faces and get guys in the right frame of mind. I love Paulie, but if everybody hung their head and moped back to the dugout like he does after a bad at bat, it would be infectious. The opposite is true, as well.

cards press box
08-21-2008, 08:07 PM
Is he going to bat .280+ or hit 40 homers?

Because I thought he was going to hit .240 with 25 homers like he's on pace to.

Based on what he has done so far, Nick Swisher is on pace to hit .240 with 25 HR and 80 RBI with an on-base percentage of .356. Those numbers are just fine but I expect him to outperform that projection because he has settled in to playing in Chicago and his numbers to date reflect the fact that he was pressing earlier in the season.

What's more, he has played well defensively all over the diamond and has given this club a spark it has not had since Aaron Rowand was traded to the Phillies. I'm glad he is here and, as I've said before, I hope he remains a cornerstone of this franchise.

turners56
08-21-2008, 08:12 PM
Kenny is one hell of a talent evaluator, I'll give you that...

What's funny is that these quotes were so stupid at the time he said them, but they've all come true...

munchman33
08-21-2008, 08:13 PM
Based on what he has done so far, Nick Swisher is on pace to hit .240 with 25 HR and 80 RBI with an on-base percentage of .356. Those numbers are just fine but I expect him to outperform that projection because he has settled in to playing in Chicago and his numbers to date reflect the fact that he was pressing earlier in the season.

What's more, he has played well defensively all over the diamond and has given this club a spark it has not had since Aaron Rowand was traded to the Phillies. I'm glad he is here and, as I've said before, I hope he remains a cornerstone of this franchise.

Those numbers are hardly "cornerstone" worthy. You can be glad he's here, and even think he's a good player if you want. But you don't build around a guy like that. You build around a Carlos Quentin type guy. There's a world of difference.

Elephant
08-21-2008, 09:07 PM
You are 100% on the money with this post. Kenny Williams had, without a doubt, a brilliant off-season. Columnists like Couch and the blogger at the Sun-Times are awfully quick to take pot shots but are a lot slower at acknowleding the first-rate job that Williams has done.

I'm a big fan of Roland Hemond but I suspect that he would agree with me that Williams is likely the best GM that the White Sox have ever had. What's more, Ozzie Guillen is the best manager that the White Sox have had since Al Lopez.



Nick Swisher has been a stalwart for the White Sox and when the season is over, his statistics will be more impressive that some people think.

Replace stalwart with ass wart and you have our 1B tandem.

jabrch
08-21-2008, 09:11 PM
I can't tell - is there anyone out there actually criticising the job KW did this offseason?

Elephant
08-21-2008, 09:16 PM
I can't tell - is there anyone out there actually criticising the job KW did this offseason?

Get off it. He got lucky, everybody know that. Part of it was good work KW. Keep **** in perspective for once.

God damn boy.

sullythered
08-21-2008, 09:22 PM
Get off it. He got lucky, everybody know that. Part of it was good work KW. Keep **** in perspective for once.

God damn boy.
Get off it. It was good work, everybody knows that. Part of it was luck, KW. Keep **** in perspective for once.

God damn boy.

Gigantor3000
08-21-2008, 09:26 PM
Neither of those players filled the CF role Kenny looked to Fukudome and Hunter to fill. It's really those players vs. Swisher...

Rightfully so my good fellow! Here is a pen for your broken pudding cup!

Listen up fella's, Los Q was an injured burnout of a first round pick. He was worthless to anyone, therefore Kenny Dubs was rightly mocked by our local media peeps. Simple as that.

jabrch
08-21-2008, 09:30 PM
Rightfully so my good fellow! Here is a pen for your broken pudding cup!

Listen up fella's, Los Q was an injured burnout of a first round pick. He was worthless to anyone, therefore Kenny Dubs was rightly mocked by our local media peeps. Simple as that.


Welcome to WSI - :dtroll:

GoSox2K3
08-21-2008, 09:34 PM
That stat has no basis in fact or reality, no sane or rational person would give it any attention.

I have concluded long ago that many posters here are not rational.

As much as it makes me wanna vomit, I agree with you mostly on this. Swisher has had maybe a handful of games where his hits meant something. For the most part, Swisher has been a feaster on bad pitchers this season. If the Sox scored 8 runs, Swisher probably did something that game. If the game is close and low scoring, there's a good chance he left 5+ on base.

Prove me wrong, but this is generally the impression I get of Swish. To be honest I haven't looked up the stats on it, but this is how it has felt up til the last few games where he seems to finally consistantly be hitting. (P.S. so has the majority of the team)

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200808063261671

Bobby Jenks
08-21-2008, 09:36 PM
Every idiot writing for Chicago sports pages mocked him for not signing Fukudome or Hunter, and having to settle for "plan D" players Quentin and Alexi Ramirez.

And #2 puts the lie to Phil Rogers' column a few weeks ago where he took the position that NOBODY knew that Carlos Quentin would be as good as he turned out to be.

I like the moves Kenny,but wouldn't it be more luck in signing Ramirez instead of Hunter? Hunter was his 1st choice anyways.


oops already been hit on here. Disregard.

Gigantor3000
08-21-2008, 09:47 PM
Welcome to WSI - :dtroll:

Read what I posted tough guy, he was spurned like a dbag nerd trying to ask the hot girl to prom, so he went with Los Q....to the media it looked like he failed.

Again, read the post, consider the tone and context and THEN begin your meltdown.

Hope this helps!

jabrch
08-21-2008, 09:48 PM
Read what I posted tough guy, he was spurned like a dbag nerd trying to ask the hot girl to prom, so he went with Los Q....to the media it looked like he failed.

Again, read the post, consider the tone and context and THEN begin your meltdown.

Hope this helps!

Sure...:dtroll:

Gigantor3000
08-21-2008, 09:49 PM
Sure...:dtroll:


AHAHAHAH http://www.norgeforge.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/nuclear.jpg
MELTDOWN.

voodoochile
08-21-2008, 10:20 PM
Read what I posted tough guy, he was spurned like a dbag nerd trying to ask the hot girl to prom, so he went with Los Q....to the media it looked like he failed.

Again, read the post, consider the tone and context and THEN begin your meltdown.

Hope this helps!

Shouldn't KW get praise for having more than one plan?

No Hunter.

No Fukudome.

Didn't really want Rowand.

Got Swisher and TCQ and Cabrera and Linebrink and Dotel and Ramirez and made it all fit in his budget.

Sounds like a heck of a job if you ask me and people who mock it don't really get the amount of work that went into it.

Amazing how many people there are who understand the game and are better qualified to comment on it and the moves KW made better than KW himself.

See that's the difference between you and KW. You think it matters who took the hot girl to the prom. But, it's better to get the hot girl to marry you and as people age, as often as not it's the nerd who gets that hot girl, because they've got more to offer than some HS jock wannabe...

balke
08-21-2008, 10:20 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200808063261671

Which is why I say handful. Its not often he gets hits in close games like that, Uribe has probably been more effective in that type of situation.

Which by stat glance, Uribe hits .360 w/risp this season to Swisher's .265.


Late and close:

Uribe .242 4 RBI 33 AB
Swisher .254 10 RBI 63 AB


And this is with a recent surge in hitting for Swisher. He's been doing better lately, but so has the whole team. Looking at him this season, he seems to be getting walks when you want hits the most, and he was a huge contributor to this team having so many stranded runners.

I feel like Griffey helped light a fire there.

jabrch
08-21-2008, 10:26 PM
See that's the difference between you and KW. You think it matters who took the hot girl to the prom. But, it's better to get the hot girl to marry you and as people age, as often as not it's the nerd who gets that hot girl, because they've got more to offer than some HS jock wannabe...

I also don't give a damn who you took to the prom in HS. That crack whore is probably giving half and half for a fifty under the bridge now. Tell me who you have with you today.

Kenny has one of the best Gals in the game. He should be proud - regardless of what people thought of who he took to the prom in April.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 10:31 PM
Shouldn't KW get praise for having more than one plan?

No Hunter.

No Fukudome.

Didn't really want Rowand.

Got Swisher and TCQ and Cabrera and Linebrink and Dotel and Ramirez and made it all fit in his budget.

Sounds like a heck of a job if you ask me and people who mock it don't really get the amount of work that went into it.

Amazing how many people there are who understand the game and are better qualified to comment on it and the moves KW made better than KW himself.

See that's the difference between you and KW. You think it matters who took the hot girl to the prom. But, it's better to get the hot girl to marry you and as people age, as often as not it's the nerd who gets that hot girl, because they've got more to offer than some HS jock wannabe...

You see...you're thinking like 2005, where we shed to spend in other areas. But bullpen was #1 regardless. And Cabrera cost less than Jon Garland. If we had signed Hunter, our payroll would have been higher than it is now, even if we hadn't made the moves we did after Hunter signed elsewhere. Which leads me to believe Kenny is under budget. Which isn't terrible. Except he throws three left fielders on the field every night.

As much as I hate saying this...we should have signed Rowand, even for that money. Kenny got Swisher for the Rowand intangibles, but Swisher isn't giving Rowand production on either side of the ball. But we do need those intangibles more than anything, even good players..so we're throwing a guy in center who can't play there but can't hit enough to play left. And the salary difference is $8 million (and getting closer every year)?

Now it's easy to play devil's advocate at this point. But the truth is there's a lot of different things Kenny could have done other than give Ozzie Jerry Owens, Nick Swisher, or death as his options in center. And while many of the other options weren't perfect, most of them were better than what we ended up with. Kenny should be held accountable for that. It's a very important position, especially on defense.

munchman33
08-21-2008, 10:34 PM
Rightfully so my good fellow! Here is a pen for your broken pudding cup!

Listen up fella's, Los Q was an injured burnout of a first round pick. He was worthless to anyone, therefore Kenny Dubs was rightly mocked by our local media peeps. Simple as that.

I thought Carlos would put up MVP type numbers and was furious after the Nick Swisher trade partly because I believed it would force TCQ down to AAA.

2906
08-21-2008, 10:39 PM
Now it's easy to play devil's advocate at this point. But the truth is there's a lot of different things Kenny could have done other than give Ozzie Jerry Owens, Nick Swisher, or death as his options in center. And while many of the other options weren't perfect, most of them were better than what we ended up with. Kenny should be held accountable for that. It's a very important position, especially on defense.

So what are those things Kenny could have done that you claim are "truth", and tell us how you know they are truth. As in, definitive proof they are truth.

Otherwise, admit you're talking out of your ass again.

balke
08-21-2008, 10:39 PM
You see...you're thinking like 2005, where we shed to spend in other areas. But bullpen was #1 regardless. And Cabrera cost less than Jon Garland. If we had signed Hunter, our payroll would have been higher than it is now, even if we hadn't made the moves we did after Hunter signed elsewhere. Which leads me to believe Kenny is under budget. Which isn't terrible. Except he throws three left fielders on the field every night.

As much as I hate saying this...we should have signed Rowand, even for that money. Kenny got Swisher for the Rowand intangibles, but Swisher isn't giving Rowand production on either side of the ball. But we do need those intangibles more than anything, even good players..so we're throwing a guy in center who can't play there but can't hit enough to play left. And the salary difference is $8 million (and getting closer every year)?

Now it's easy to play devil's advocate at this point. But the truth is there's a lot of different things Kenny could have done other than give Ozzie Jerry Owens, Nick Swisher, or death as his options in center. And while many of the other options weren't perfect, most of them were better than what we ended up with. Kenny should be held accountable for that. It's a very important position, especially on defense.


Though I agree more than anyone Swisher is not a great CFer, Kenny has responsibility to build towards the future. Swisher has potential to hit 35+ hr's in a park like this, and he can play multiple positions.

Kenny also needed to address OBP. and to raise pitch counts of the opposition. Swisher leads the league in p/pa and it is that type of approach that has helped the Sox get the oppositions starting pitchers out of the game early and getting to the bullpen early, which leads to runs. He also seems to keep the Clubhouse loose and to divert attention to himself often, while adding to the Sox image. I just wish he was playing up to his potential, he's been very disappointing from what I expected. I was hoping he'd be having a Quentinesque season this year.

Swisher is still more valuable than putting your faith in Brian Anderson to start the year, or paying Rowand (who probably didn't want to come back to Chicago).

2906
08-21-2008, 10:46 PM
Though I agree more than anyone Swisher is not a great CFer, Kenny has responsibility to build towards the future. Swisher has potential to hit 35+ hr's in a park like this, and he can play multiple positions.

Kenny also needed to address OBP. and to raise pitch counts of the opposition. Swisher leads the league in p/pa and it is that type of approach that has helped the Sox get the oppositions starting pitchers out of the game early and getting to the bullpen early, which leads to runs. He also seems to keep the Clubhouse loose and to divert attention to himself often, while adding to the Sox image. I just wish he was playing up to his potential, he's been very disappointing from what I expected. I was hoping he'd be having a Quentinesque season this year.

Swisher is still more valuable than putting your faith in Brian Anderson to start the year, or paying Rowand (who probably didn't want to come back to Chicago).

Funny you should mention OBP, it's timely. Williams said the same thing in an article on the White Sox website today.

Rowand would've been happy to come back to Chicago, if the Sox were willing to go five years. They weren't and I don't blame them.

jabrch
08-21-2008, 10:51 PM
Rowand would've been happy to come back to Chicago, if the Sox were willing to go five years. They weren't and I don't blame them.

You can make an arguement either way. In either case, we have Swish and about 2mm per or Rowand and DLS/GIO/Sweeney. I think you can make a decent arguement either way.

balke
08-21-2008, 11:02 PM
Funny you should mention OBP, it's timely. Williams said the same thing in an article on the White Sox website today.

Rowand would've been happy to come back to Chicago, if the Sox were willing to go five years. They weren't and I don't blame them.

Yeah, I said it last week too though. That's what Swisher has added, and it has been a good formula in terms of the Sox scoring this season. He's raised pitch counts at least, and has been on base. That was the reason for getting him and Cabrera to start the year. In theory, Swisher was supposed to get on base, and Cabrera was supposed to get him over. Thankfully, there turned out to be so many good hitters at this point in the season, Swisher is lower in the order.

Now that there's more actual hitters on the team, his OBP. is far more valuable than it has been the majority of the season.

areilly
08-21-2008, 11:14 PM
What's funny is that these quotes were so stupid at the time he said them, but they've all come true...

And this post, right there, is why the idea of this thread is a crock. At the time, there were not 29 other teams that wanted Gavin Floyd. At the time, the Sox/Tigers contention comment was moot at best. To try to contextualize this all as Kenny Knows Best is the worst kind of revisionist history.

And while I don't doubt KW actually specifically wanted Carlos Quentin, let's keep in mind he also specifically wanted Torii Hunter, Miguel Cabrera, Aaron Rowand and/or Kosuke Fukudome. So, you know, it's kind of a futile testament.

Rockman218
08-21-2008, 11:22 PM
Kenny! Kenny! Kenny! Kenny!!!!
:wooty:

Elephant
08-21-2008, 11:31 PM
Get off it. It was good work, everybody knows that. Part of it was luck, KW. Keep **** in perspective for once.

God damn boy.

What's thread even about? Some people are supposed to eat crow because KW's backup plans turned out to be right? If he had his way, we wouldn't be here right now as the same team. KW wanted this and that but didn't get it and his backup plans proved to work. Sounds a lot like 05. Why didn't he learn from that?

And let's not forget that he overpaid for Swisher, traded away a stopgap starter and competent reliever in Masset for a useless Griffey, and still has a shaky bullpen essentially since '06.

Those are facts. Do they mean he sucks? No, they just mean he's not the best. This yay KW stuff is lame and uninteresting.

Bottom line is KW got lucky, had a lot go his way, did an overall good job, is above average, and has made mistakes/not addressed some of our key problems in his time here. I don't see the point in arguing for pages about what's negativity and what's objectivity, and then trying to figure out which analyses are legit and which are compromised by one's posting history. Guess what--if SoxFanBob is always negative, he's right some of the time, maybe even half.

Just skimming through I haven't read much here that wasn't pretty accurate in some way and wasn't debatable mostly if not entirely because of one's own personal outlook on life. Yet the arguing rages on..

Adele_H
08-21-2008, 11:57 PM
http://www.norgeforge.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/nuclear.jpg
.



:hawk

"I love the H-bomb"










.

sullythered
08-22-2008, 12:04 AM
What's thread even about? Some people are supposed to eat crow because KW's backup plans turned out to be right? If he had his way, we wouldn't be here right now as the same team. KW wanted this and that but didn't get it and his backup plans proved to work. Sounds a lot like 05. Why didn't he learn from that?

And let's not forget that he overpaid for Swisher, traded away a stopgap starter and competent reliever in Masset for a useless Griffey, and still has a shaky bullpen essentially since '06.

Those are facts. Do they mean he sucks? No, they just mean he's not the best. This yay KW stuff is lame and uninteresting.

Bottom line is KW got lucky, had a lot go his way, did an overall good job, is above average, and has made mistakes/not addressed some of our key problems in his time here. I don't see the point in arguing for pages about what's negativity and what's objectivity, and then trying to figure out which analyses are legit and which are compromised by one's posting history. Guess what--if SoxFanBob is always negative, he's right some of the time, maybe even half.

Just skimming through I haven't read much here that wasn't pretty accurate in some way and wasn't debatable mostly if not entirely because of one's own personal outlook on life. Yet the arguing rages on..
The point is not that he can see the future, only that it isn't primarily luck that gets Kenny where he is. When the "big name" guys signed for way over their value, Kenny went in another direction. All those decisions were good ones, both this season and in '05. The friggin' point is that when a guy constantly makes good moves that you people don't see coming, that doesn't make him lucky, it makes him smarter than all the constant detractors.

And the Griffey thing was a no risk shot that a guy still had something in the tank. I don't even know if he does yet, but we gave up crap for him.

And to your Swisher point, we didn't even come close to overpaying for him. We gave up a future shaky setup guy, a fourth outfielder, and a guy who's arm fell off (something else Kenny has constantly been able to do).

And finally, the point is that it's all the same people on this board who bitched and moaned about the moves Kenny made this past offseason who are now crying "lucky." Those people just need to eat their damn crow and enjoy how wrong they were... again.

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2008, 12:07 AM
... Alexi Ramirez.
:haddock:

Elephant
08-22-2008, 12:25 AM
The point is not that he can see the future, only that it isn't primarily luck that gets Kenny where he is. When the "big name" guys signed for way over their value, Kenny went in another direction. All those decisions were good ones, both this season and in '05. The friggin' point is that when a guy constantly makes good moves that you people don't see coming, that doesn't make him lucky, it makes him smarter than all the constant detractors.

And the Griffey thing was a no risk shot that a guy still had something in the tank. I don't even know if he does yet, but we gave up crap for him.

And to your Swisher point, we didn't even come close to overpaying for him. We gave up a future shaky setup guy, a fourth outfielder, and a guy who's arm fell off (something else Kenny has constantly been able to do).

And finally, the point is that it's all the same people on this board who bitched and moaned about the moves Kenny made this past offseason who are now crying "lucky." Those people just need to eat their damn crow and enjoy how wrong they were... again.

We gave up our two best prospects and a pretty good OF prospect for Nick Swisher...give me a break if that's not overpaying. And I haven't considered yet that the A's are always looking to dump payroll and thus should be pretty easy to trade with. Look at what the Cubs gave up for Rich Harden. We could've done that, but no, we'd already traded everything away for a .254 hitter who can't seem to do even that anymore.

sullythered
08-22-2008, 12:32 AM
We gave up our two best prospects and a pretty good OF prospect for Nick Swisher...give me a break if that's not overpaying. And I haven't considered yet that the A's are always looking to dump payroll and thus should be pretty easy to trade with. Look at what the Cubs gave up for Rich Harden. We could've done that, but no, we'd already traded everything away for a .254 hitter who can't seem to do even that anymore.
We gave up what others considered our two best prospects. They were not. The Sox have had the great ability over the last several years to convince other teams that our meh prospects are top level. We trade them, they fail, or are moderate at best. We have constantly traded away our "top prospects" without once suffering for it. Those guys probably won't amount to crap, and to be honest, Clayton Richard looks 100x more capable of dealing with major league hitters than Gio Gonzalez does to me. Also, Sean Gallagher will be better than either of the two we gave up, too.

And boy do I hate it when a young guy with a proven track record has a tough start, and some people make ridiculous statements like "can't seem to do even that anymore." The guy came to a big city for the first time, had early struggles, and has righted the ship. And if Ryan Sweeney ever comes even close to Swish's numbers, I'll eat my hat.

Oh, and they were not, in fact, looking to dump Swish's salary. He doesn't get paid that much, and was not being shopped.

Daver
08-22-2008, 12:36 AM
We gave up our two best prospects and a pretty good OF prospect for Nick Swisher...give me a break if that's not overpaying. And I haven't considered yet that the A's are always looking to dump payroll and thus should be pretty easy to trade with. Look at what the Cubs gave up for Rich Harden. We could've done that, but no, we'd already traded everything away for a .254 hitter who can't seem to do even that anymore.

Which of the prospects spent to acquire Swisher would be producing today at the MLB level?

That is their value.

Noneck
08-22-2008, 12:42 AM
It appears as tho Williams has done a very good job this year, up to this point. We will see how successful the moves he made in both the near (season end) and distant future. At season end, the second guessing should occur.

Elephant
08-22-2008, 12:46 AM
Which of the prospects spent to acquire Swisher would be producing today at the MLB level?

That is their value.

In an ignorant vacuum, yes.

:rolleyes:

And even in that mindset, Swisher isn't the guy that puts anyone over the top. Harden on the other hand, maybe.

Daver
08-22-2008, 12:50 AM
In an ignorant vacuum, yes.

:rolleyes:

And even in that mindset, Swisher isn't the guy that puts anyone over the top. Harden on the other hand, maybe.

You and munchman have a lot in common.

sullythered
08-22-2008, 12:55 AM
And even in that mindset, Swisher isn't the guy that puts anyone over the top. Harden on the other hand, maybe.
Like you, or any of us, have any idea whether Swisher is a guy that puts someone "over the top." That phrase is not only overused, but silly. On a given team, any player who is good at anything could be the guy that puts a team "over the top." Swisher does plenty to help a team, including seeing the most pitches per at bat than anyone in the bigs. That is something the Yankees used to do back when they didn't sign stat guys and still won championships. Hey, you think anybody thought Jim Leyritz would be a guy that put somebody "over the top?"

sullythered
08-22-2008, 12:56 AM
You and munchman have a lot in common.
I thought they were the same guy for a while, but Elephant is smarmier.

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2008, 12:58 AM
Like you, or any of us, have any idea whether Swisher is a guy that puts someone "over the top." That phrase is not only overused, but silly. On a given team, any player who is good at anything could be the guy that puts a team "over the top." Swisher does plenty to help a team, including seeing the most pitches per at bat than anyone in the bigs. That is something the Yankees used to do back when they didn't sign stat guys and still won championships. Hey, you think anybody thought Jim Leyritz would be a guy that put somebody "over the top?"Nobody mentions Swisher's value at keeping the team loose. The dugout seems to be having fun this year, and Swisher is always at the center of it. Last year's team lacked anybody who wasn't quiet and serious.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 12:59 AM
You see...you're thinking like 2005, where we shed to spend in other areas. But bullpen was #1 regardless. And Cabrera cost less than Jon Garland. If we had signed Hunter, our payroll would have been higher than it is now, even if we hadn't made the moves we did after Hunter signed elsewhere. Which leads me to believe Kenny is under budget. Which isn't terrible. Except he throws three left fielders on the field every night.

As much as I hate saying this...we should have signed Rowand, even for that money. Kenny got Swisher for the Rowand intangibles, but Swisher isn't giving Rowand production on either side of the ball. But we do need those intangibles more than anything, even good players..so we're throwing a guy in center who can't play there but can't hit enough to play left. And the salary difference is $8 million (and getting closer every year)?

Now it's easy to play devil's advocate at this point. But the truth is there's a lot of different things Kenny could have done other than give Ozzie Jerry Owens, Nick Swisher, or death as his options in center. And while many of the other options weren't perfect, most of them were better than what we ended up with. Kenny should be held accountable for that. It's a very important position, especially on defense.

No, we just wouldn't have Dotel...

cards press box
08-22-2008, 01:00 AM
Those numbers are hardly "cornerstone" worthy. You can be glad he's here, and even think he's a good player if you want. But you don't build around a guy like that. You build around a Carlos Quentin type guy. There's a world of difference.

I didn't say that Swisher was the cornerstone but rather part of the team's nucelus in the near future. I do agree that the Sox should build around Carlos Quentin who may well be the best young player in the organization.

Having said that, the most essential players on the Sox might well be the top 4 starters: Mark Buerhle, Javier Vazquez, Gavin Floyd and John Danks. And numerous posters went bananas (and not in a good way) when Ken Williams traded for three of these four pitchers.

Replace stalwart with ass wart and you have our 1B tandem.

Give me a break. The White Sox have scored 659 runs which is good for 2nd in the AL and 3rd in all of the major leagues. Paul Konerko has been hurt all year but has played better lately and, presumably, is healthy again. In relief of Konerko, Nick Swisher has played great defense at first base. Right now, the Sox are getting fine production from their first basemen.

What's the use, some of the posters here are chronic complainers and would not be satisfied with an unbeaten season.

As for your "ass wart" comment, you don't know what you're talking about.

SBSoxFan
08-22-2008, 01:00 AM
Mailing it in was a poor word choice. And I like Nick Swisher as a person. He's a tremendous community leader.

But he's a large reason we're in a division race as opposed to preparing for the playoffs. He's been hot lately, and staying hot the rest of the year would go a long way in repairing a terrible season.

I've seen Nick strike out or pop up a lot in games when we needed a hit. You haven't noticed that?

I don't think that's fair at all. How many other Sox players could you say the same thing about? Cabrera? Thome? Konerko?

Remember, Swisher was batting lead off to start the season, and, I believe, he had a tremendous on base percentage early on. His only goal was to get on base, usually with a walk, and this negatively affected his offensive approach and he is just now getting out of it.

I still don't think he's a CF'er though.

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 01:03 AM
I thought they were the same guy for a while, but Elephant is smarmier.

Is there a 'brown-noser' smilie? I bet it'd be super popular. :rolleyes:

As for the title question.... KW would definately be laughing right about now - if his face could contort enough to convey an emotion other than 'intensely driven; pensive'. Exec of the year.

pmck003
08-22-2008, 01:10 AM
Nobody mentions Swisher's value at keeping the team loose. The dugout seems to be having fun this year, and Swisher is always at the center of it. Last year's team lacked anybody who wasn't quiet and serious.

While I would agree with you, for all we know Swish's attitude could of contributed to Paulie and Jim's struggles during the first half. All in all, his numbers offensively and defensively are just not that good. . Thinking about it, I can't say that we would be better off without him based on that there was no surefire replacement to do what he has done. I would argue that he's done pretty well considering hes moved into so many different positions (defensive and lineup) that he has been quite valuable. I'm excited to see if he really prospers next year if he is able to get a consistent spot in the field and lineup.

Even if KW is just getting lucky, there is something to be said about putting yourself in the position to get lucky. Like trading for a former to-be-allstar prospect who was injured and signing an world games hero from Cuba.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 01:11 AM
We gave up our two best prospects and a pretty good OF prospect for Nick Swisher...give me a break if that's not overpaying. And I haven't considered yet that the A's are always looking to dump payroll and thus should be pretty easy to trade with. Look at what the Cubs gave up for Rich Harden. We could've done that, but no, we'd already traded everything away for a .254 hitter who can't seem to do even that anymore.

That's what prospects are for sometimes. IF they ever pan out, your argument might mean something, but right now Swish remains the better deal, more so with Gio looking like a middle reliever at best at the moment.

This is also probably the worst offensive year we are ever going to see from dirty 30 and he's signed for 2 more years with an option for a 3rd, IIRC. In addition, no one can argue the effect he's had on the clubhouse and man, this team is playing loose and bouncing back fast partly because of his ability to have fun at the ballpark, IMO.

I don't see why it's so damned hard to say, "Good job, KW. Heck of a season and you're the main reason why." People get so lathered up and invest so much of their ego in trying to prove they are smarter than the guys who actually run the team, they have a hard time admitting they just might have been wrong.

Of course, it's the Internet and no one ever needs to do that, just run right out and buy the next Moron column and then they can ape that **** too and meanwhile the team goes right on winning games...

areilly
08-22-2008, 01:28 AM
I don't see why it's so damned hard to say, "Good job, KW. Heck of a season and you're the main reason why." People get so lathered up and invest so much of their ego in trying to prove they are smarter than the guys who actually run the team, they have a hard time admitting they just might have been wrong.

The problem is that the season's not over yet. We don't know yet if this is another 2005, another 2000, or another 2003.

Of course, it's the Internet and no one ever needs to do that, just run right out and buy the next Moron column and then they can ape that **** too and meanwhile the team goes right on winning games...

You're not seriously equating a team's quality of construction with it's W-L record, are you? 2000 White Sox ring a bell? 2001 Mariners? 1999 Indians?

sullythered
08-22-2008, 01:29 AM
Is there a 'brown-noser' smilie? I bet it'd be super popular. :rolleyes:

As for the title question.... KW would definately be laughing right about now - if his face could contort enough to convey an emotion other than 'intensely driven; pensive'. Exec of the year.
Now you and Elephant might actually be the same person.

And who am I brown-nosing? I don't work for the Sox, nor do I work for this website. It doesn't make anybody cooler/smarter/quicker to knock everything and everyone that isn't sabermetric or uses team chemistry as a reason for hope or excitement. It just makes them sound like a dick.

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 01:36 AM
Now you and Elephant might actually be the same person.

.

I am Sky. Not Elephant.

sullythered
08-22-2008, 01:38 AM
I am Sky. Not Elephant.
Seriously, though, who was I "brown-nosing?" I don't get the cut of your jib.

...
08-22-2008, 01:50 AM
In an ignorant vacuum, yes.

:rolleyes:

And even in that mindset, Swisher isn't the guy that puts anyone over the top. Harden on the other hand, maybe.

The Cubs gave up multiple MLB-ready prospects to acquire Harden. The Sox gave up **** to get Swisher.

...
08-22-2008, 01:51 AM
Seriously, though, who was I "brown-nosing?" I don't get the cut of your jib.

No one. It just sounds cool when you accuse someone of "brown nosing"

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 01:55 AM
The problem is that the season's not over yet. We don't know yet if this is another 2005, another 2000, or another 2003.



You're not seriously equating a team's quality of construction with it's W-L record, are you? 2000 White Sox ring a bell? 2001 Mariners? 1999 Indians?

You make the playoffs you deserve at least some credit, no? Is this the way we now judge things? Win it all or it's a failure?

You are correct, the season isn't over yet, but based on the number of people who chose the Sox to finish 3rd or even lower in the division, it's pretty darn sure the Sox are having a relatively successful season.

And again, much of that is due to moves KW made...

Even if this season goes belly up, there is reason to be optimistic for the future with Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, Swisher, TCQ all just starting their careers or entering their primes. ALL of them are KW acquisitions. By hook or by crook or by blind fumbling luck (what some of the people seem to be claiming) KW has in one off season turned the fate of the franchise around. From old and beaten down to nice mix of talented youth and veteran leadership. Isn't that worth at least a "woohoo! You go, KW!"?

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 01:56 AM
No one. It just sounds cool when you accuse someone of "brown nosing"

And he happened to agree with some of the mods who were posting. You know, people never do that unless they are looking to make brownie points...:rolleyes:

sullythered
08-22-2008, 01:59 AM
You are correct, the season isn't over yet, but based on the number of people who chose the Sox to finish 3rd or even lower in the division, it's pretty darn sure the Sox are having a relatively successful season.

Plus we're actually statistically outpitching, outhitting, AND outscoring the vaunted Angels.

jabrch
08-22-2008, 04:43 AM
I don't see why it's so damned hard to say, "Good job, KW. Heck of a season and you're the main reason why." People get so lathered up and invest so much of their ego in trying to prove they are smarter than the guys who actually run the team, they have a hard time admitting they just might have been wrong.

Of course, it's the Internet and no one ever needs to do that, just run right out and buy the next Moron column and then they can ape that **** too and meanwhile the team goes right on winning games...

If you look at who this nonsense is coming from, are you surprised? It's a vocal minority. I pay no attention to any of them - none of them are worth it. You can easily predict who it will be.

PeteWard
08-22-2008, 05:39 AM
Okeedokee.

Swish's OPS is 35 points higher, he's 4 years younger and costs half as much as Fukudome.

yep and by the 30th of Septmeber I bet their batting averages will be nearly identical

PeteWard
08-22-2008, 05:58 AM
I also don't give a damn who you took to the prom in HS. That crack whore is probably giving half and half for a fifty under the bridge now.Tell me who you have with you today.

Kenny has one of the best Gals in the game. He should be proud - regardless of what people thought of who he took to the prom in April.


Gee, I don't think we have gotten enough from this brilliant prom date metaphor yet. Anybody else out there want to wring a bit more out of it? We have only gotten to "crack whore is probably giving half and half for a fifty under the bridge now" .

doublem23
08-22-2008, 07:44 AM
God, I hate off days.

Craig Grebeck
08-22-2008, 07:58 AM
I know Nick Swisher sucks and all, but here are his slash stats since June 1st:

.267/.377/.533/.910

Clearly he's holding us back, right Munch?

Dan Mega
08-22-2008, 08:12 AM
As one of the early season doubters, I would say to KW that I'm quite glad he proved me wrong and lets go wrap up the division from the stinkin' twinks.

doublem23
08-22-2008, 08:21 AM
.267/.377/.533/.910

Clearly he's holding us back, right Munch?

We would clearly be better off with Sweeney, the corner OF hitting .283/.324/.355 in that same time span, an A-ball pitcher shelved after Tommy John surgery, and Gio, who needs no commentary after Sunday's debacle.

I personally always felt the Sox would be able to compete if Floyd and Danks were able to hold their own at the back of the rotation. I liked the team KW put together offensively from day 1. Our lack of pitching depth, however, is still a bit worrisome, but hopefully Richard/Broadway will be able to remain serviceable the final weeks of the season.

stevied23
08-22-2008, 09:23 AM
ta-daaaaaa!!!

One could argue that kw showed his faith in floyd and danks when he traded away garland, said, "our pitching will be fine" and then didn't pursue any other starters, but far be it from me to get in the way of your gloating.

Reckless bravado? He made quality offers for both hunter and fukudome (better than the flubbies wans't it?) but got rejected by hunter who without warning or a chance to match signed with the angels and fukdome (is he really worth that money in hindsight?) who didn't want to play cf on a regular basis. So kw made the most of it he could, acquired a good young player with a solid bat who could play cf.

The failings of those two superior teams you mention seem to have more to do with the way those teams were constructed than pure luck. Cleveland put together a good not great pitching team and neglected the offense. When hafner went down they were toast. Detroit went the other way and in fairness to you, fits the description of a softball team much better - all hit, no defense, no pitching - especially relief pitching and both of these teams built by their gm's and revered by you have proven to be broken models.

Meanwhile kw shored up the weakest positions he had and built depth. He shored up the if defense and offense by adding cabrera. He found a guy to play cf who can hit. He took chances on one young ball player in particular (tcq) and was dead on in his analysis. Tcm is really gravy. I doubt anyone expected him to be this good this fast save maybe his mom. Kw also rebuilt the bullpen - a major weakness last year and boy has he been proven right especially after linebrink went down and dotel took over without so much as a blink.

So go ahead and laugh. Go ahead and jeer. The fact is you are dead wrong and kw is correct. The fact that you cannot admit it says more about your ego than it does about kw's abilities...



owned

palehozenychicty
08-22-2008, 09:48 AM
The point is not that he can see the future, only that it isn't primarily luck that gets Kenny where he is. When the "big name" guys signed for way over their value, Kenny went in another direction. All those decisions were good ones, both this season and in '05. The friggin' point is that when a guy constantly makes good moves that you people don't see coming, that doesn't make him lucky, it makes him smarter than all the constant detractors.

And the Griffey thing was a no risk shot that a guy still had something in the tank. I don't even know if he does yet, but we gave up crap for him.

And to your Swisher point, we didn't even come close to overpaying for him. We gave up a future shaky setup guy, a fourth outfielder, and a guy who's arm fell off (something else Kenny has constantly been able to do).

And finally, the point is that it's all the same people on this board who bitched and moaned about the moves Kenny made this past offseason who are now crying "lucky." Those people just need to eat their damn crow and enjoy how wrong they were... again.

I still think that at least one of those players can become a respectable major leaguer. This is the first year that Gonzalez or Sweeney have gotten significant playing time in the show.

Back to the thread, KW's strength has always been finding diamonds in the rough. I don't know if he'll ever be able to develop a semblance of a farm, but that's another thread for another time.

cws05champ
08-22-2008, 09:59 AM
That's what prospects are for sometimes. IF they ever pan out, your argument might mean something, but right now Swish remains the better deal, more so with Gio looking like a middle reliever at best at the moment.

This is also probably the worst offensive year we are ever going to see from dirty 30 and he's signed for 2 more years with an option for a 3rd, IIRC. In addition, no one can argue the effect he's had on the clubhouse and man, this team is playing loose and bouncing back fast partly because of his ability to have fun at the ballpark, IMO.

I don't see why it's so damned hard to say, "Good job, KW. Heck of a season and you're the main reason why." People get so lathered up and invest so much of their ego in trying to prove they are smarter than the guys who actually run the team, they have a hard time admitting they just might have been wrong.

Of course, it's the Internet and no one ever needs to do that, just run right out and buy the next Moron column and then they can ape that **** too and meanwhile the team goes right on winning games...
Right on!! I liked the idea of this thread, but it turned into another pissing contest with the dark clouds...those who just can not admit that KW did a decent job this offseason. All you that bitched and moaned about the Swisher trade continue to do so in EVERY thread(Danks thread et al). Why can't you just say good job and you were wrong about this team overall and not turn it into "well he gave up too much to get Swisher" & "He got lucky"? I predicted this would be a 79-86 win team as constructed at the beginning of the season depending on Floyd, Danks. I was wrong...I happily admit it and I am enjoying the season with the Sox in 1st place for most of the year.....Why can't you?

The acts of several vocal people on these threads is really getting old...just being contratrian just for attention.

jabrch
08-22-2008, 10:03 AM
I still think that at least one of those players can become a respectable major leaguer. This is the first year that Gonzalez or Sweeney have gotten significant playing time in the show.

That's entirely possible - I don't think anyone doubts it. But at this point, for 2008, Swisher is a much more useful asset to the team than those three.

Back to the thread, KW's strength has always been finding diamonds in the rough. I don't know if he'll ever be able to develop a semblance of a farm, but that's another thread for another time.

At the same time, the farm he has developed has been viewed favorably enough by other franchises to be useful to make significant trades over the course of the past few years. So it isn't as if it is a complete wash.

kitekrazy
08-22-2008, 10:19 AM
God, I hate off days.

White Sox withdrawal.

areilly
08-22-2008, 10:23 AM
Why can't you just say good job and you were wrong about this team overall and not turn it into "well he gave up too much to get Swisher" & "He got lucky"? I predicted this would be a 79-86 win team as constructed at the beginning of the season depending on Floyd, Danks. I was wrong...I happily admit it and I am enjoying the season with the Sox in 1st place for most of the year.....Why can't you?

Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare? Who says I'm not happy it's late August and we're talking about next week instead of next year?

The question was, "Who's laughing now?" There is no arguing that when Kenny Williams said the things he did in the offseason, they were ridiculous beyond belief. Gavin Floyd was still an awful pitcher and while KW huffed and puffed to the press about how sure he was he could make big moves, everyone except KW was making those moves.

"Aaron Rowand is our plan 1A."
"We're still trying to land a big fish."


So tell us, who's laughing now?

Mickster
08-22-2008, 10:28 AM
Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare? Who says I'm not happy it's late August and we're talking about next week instead of next year?

The question was, "Who's laughing now?" There is no arguing that when Kenny Williams said the things he did in the offseason, they were ridiculous beyond belief. Gavin Floyd was still an awful pitcher and while KW huffed and puffed to the press about how sure he was he could make big moves, everyone except KW was making those moves.

"Aaron Rowand is our plan 1A."
"We're still trying to land a big fish."


So tell us, who's laughing now?

Kenny? :dunno:





:poke:

spawn
08-22-2008, 10:29 AM
Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare? Who says I'm not happy it's late August and we're talking about next week instead of next year?

The question was, "Who's laughing now?" There is no arguing that when Kenny Williams said the things he did in the offseason, they were ridiculous beyond belief. Gavin Floyd was still an awful pitcher and while KW huffed and puffed to the press about how sure he was he could make big moves, everyone except KW was making those moves.

"Aaron Rowand is our plan 1A."
"We're still trying to land a big fish."

So tell us, who's laughing now?

Kenny? :dunno:





:poke:
Bingo.

doublem23
08-22-2008, 10:29 AM
Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare?

:o: Nice bias.

They are tied for the best run differential in the American League. They're not average.

So tell us, who's laughing now?

Probably the guy who assembled the first place team? :scratch: I mean, I guess Dave Dombroski, Mark Shapiro, and all their fanboys can keep laughing themselves to a sub-.500 record while you guys keep chirping about Torii Hunter and Kosuke Fukudome.

palehozenychicty
08-22-2008, 10:31 AM
That's entirely possible - I don't think anyone doubts it. But at this point, for 2008, Swisher is a much more useful asset to the team than those three.



At the same time, the farm he has developed has been viewed favorably enough by other franchises to be useful to make significant trades over the course of the past few years. So it isn't as if it is a complete wash.


Valid points, all. It's a miracle how he's used our scraps to get productive young players. Then again, he's a ninja, so I'm not surprised. If only he can figure out how to beat up the ****ing twinkies more consistently...:tongue:

oeo
08-22-2008, 10:32 AM
The question was, "Who's laughing now?" There is no arguing that when Kenny Williams said the things he did in the offseason, they were ridiculous beyond belief. Gavin Floyd was still an awful pitcher and while KW huffed and puffed to the press about how sure he was he could make big moves, everyone except KW was making those moves.

How were they ridiculous when he's been proven right? Gavin Floyd started his upward climb last year, in late May/early June. He turned his season around in AAA, and started to throw the ball really well. Then he came up in September and pitched very well.

I'm sorry that you thought it was a fluke. That doesn't mean his comments were 'ridiculous beyond belief.' It means, surprise, surprise, he knows what he's talking about.

spawn
08-22-2008, 10:36 AM
How were they ridiculous when he's been proven right? Gavin Floyd started his upward climb last year, in late May/early June. He turned his season around in AAA, and started to throw the ball really well. Then he came up in September and pitched very well.

I'm sorry that you thought it was a fluke. That doesn't mean his comments were 'ridiculous beyond belief,' it means, surprise, surprise, he knows what he's talking about.
I think this is the point that is being missed. Those that believed Gavin Floyd had no business being in the starting rotation, and also he was overselly us Carlos Quentin refuse to accept the fact the KW had confidence in Floyd and expected big things from TCQ. From his point of view, his comments weren't ridiculous.

areilly
08-22-2008, 10:49 AM
Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare? Who says I'm not happy it's late August and we're talking about next week instead of next year?

:o: Nice bias.

They are tied for the best run differential in the American League. They're not average.

What bias? That's exactly what I said: "The Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central." Going into the season, I had figured they would be.

However, I had not figured:
- Detroit's entire team would collapse on the first day of the season
- Most of Cleveland's team would sit this season out as well
- The Sox' new backup infielder wouldn't play better in the MLB than he did in Cuba
- Their no-name left-fielder, slated to be in AAA, would play like the forerunner for the AL MVP
- John Danks and Gavin Floyd would essentially become twice the pitcher either of them ever had been in the span of mere months
- Juan Uribe would be the starting third baseman
- Octavio Dotel would return to a form he hasn't shown since 2005
- Jermaine Dye would, at age 34, have one of the best seasons of his career

I thought we'd be looking at 2003/2004 again. Win a lot of games 9-7, lose a lot of games 3-2. If you want to tell me Kenny Williams foresaw his backup plan of a backup plan translating into the sequence of events it has. . . you know what? Don't, because I won't believe that. And I hope no one else does, either.

jabrch
08-22-2008, 10:54 AM
Valid points, all. It's a miracle how he's used our scraps to get productive young players. Then again, he's a ninja, so I'm not surprised. If only he can figure out how to beat up the ****ing twinkies more consistently...:tongue:

I would dispute the term "scraps". They are players who were perceived as having value, and many of whom do have value. In general, KW does a good job maximizing the value of pieces he isn't going to keep around. This year was another great illustration of that. But he did similar things in previous years as well.

spawn
08-22-2008, 10:57 AM
I thought we'd be looking at 2003/2004 again. Win a lot of games 9-7, lose a lot of games 3-2. If you want to tell me Kenny Williams foresaw his backup plan of a backup plan translating into the sequence of events it has. . . you know what? Don't, because I won't believe that. And I hope no one else does, either.
I believe Kenny Williams foresaw his team battling for the AL Central crown. Looks like he was right. Even I believed they would be a lot better than most of the naysayers in the media and on this board thought they would be. If you don't believe me, MarySwiss will confirm it. We both talked about that when we met up during ST, and both of us thought the Sox had a great chance to win the division with the team constructed the way it is.

oeo
08-22-2008, 10:59 AM
What bias? That's exactly what I said: "The Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central." Going into the season, I had figured they would be.

However, I had not figured:
- Detroit's entire team would collapse on the first day of the season
- Most of Cleveland's team would sit this season out as well
- The Sox' new backup infielder wouldn't play better in the MLB than he did in Cuba
- Their no-name left-fielder, slated to be in AAA, would play like the forerunner for the AL MVP
- John Danks and Gavin Floyd would essentially become twice the pitcher either of them ever had been in the span of mere months
- Juan Uribe would be the starting third baseman
- Octavio Dotel would return to a form he hasn't shown since 2005
- Jermaine Dye would, at age 34, have one of the best seasons of his career

I thought we'd be looking at 2003/2004 again. Win a lot of games 9-7, lose a lot of games 3-2. If you want to tell me Kenny Williams foresaw his backup plan of a backup plan translating into the sequence of events it has. . . you know what? Don't, because I won't believe that. And I hope no one else does, either.

Well, maybe it's not Kenny getting lucky but more of you just being blind.

-The Tigers were flawed from the start. The experts were wrong, wrong, wrong. That's now how you assemble a team.
-The Indians, to me, are the biggest surprise in the division.
-Alexei has definitely been a surprise, I will give you that. I think Kenny had a lot of confidence that he would eventually become a good player, but I think even he will tell you he didn't think it would come this quickly.
-However, Carlos Quentin was never a 'no name.' Maybe you never heard of him, but he was a top prospect and always showed tremendous power potential.
-Danks and Floyd were both former #1 picks. Danks is only 23 years old, and was forced into a major league role probably a year too early. Floyd, again, started turning his career around in June of last year.
-Not sure how Uribe at third has been a good thing. Crede staying healthy, now that should have been something you questioned.
-Coming off of Tommy John surgery. His fastball started coming back to life last year. And what did Kenny say after he signed him...the guy was in perfect health.
-Dye, for the most part, has been terrific over the past three years. He had an injury-plagued first half last year, but other than that, he has been phenomenal.

doublem23
08-22-2008, 11:02 AM
However, I had not figured:
- Detroit's entire team would collapse on the first day of the season
- Most of Cleveland's team would sit this season out as well
- The Sox' new backup infielder wouldn't play better in the MLB than he did in Cuba
- Their no-name left-fielder, slated to be in AAA, would play like the forerunner for the AL MVP
- John Danks and Gavin Floyd would essentially become twice the pitcher either of them ever had been in the span of mere months
- Juan Uribe would be the starting third baseman
- Octavio Dotel would return to a form he hasn't shown since 2005
- Jermaine Dye would, at age 34, have one of the best seasons of his career

:KW
That's why I'm the GM, bitch!

Seriously though, Danks, Floyd, and Quentin were all 1st round picks and all were at some point considered top prospects for their former teams, it's not like KW signed some guys he saw playing softball in the park. The Tigers's offense has lived up to its hype, it's one of the best in the American League, but they never had the pitching to truly compete and a lot of people saw that coming, so while I will admit I'm surprised that they're out of the race by mid-August (I picked Detroit to win the division), it's not mind-boggling.

As for JD, his line in 2nd half of last season was: .298/.368/.579. So far this year his line is .298/.352/.570... He a bad 1st half last year, but he's pretty much been a consistent producer in the Sox's lineup.

asindc
08-22-2008, 11:12 AM
I call bull**** on threads like this, as though Kenny Williams spent the winter sitting high atop his ivory tower at 35th and Shields gazing into a crystal ball which allowed him to read the minds of the Baseball Gods themselves.

"Baseball Gods, who should I use to patch up my questionable rotation?"

"Stay with the one called 'Floyd', young Kenneth, for he shall win games and throw numerous strikes."

"Baseball Gods, my plans for centerfield have fallen to pieces. How can I sift through the wreckage I've created with my reckless bravado?"

"Lay faith true in two riders from the West. He who Swishes will arrive loudly, and the other will arrive in quiet. The quiet man will save your band of misfits, young Kenneth, and he will save them when they need it most. You will know him not by name, but by the trail of shattered sticks left in his wake."

**** that. His gamble paid off and he built himself a world-class softball team whose position has less to do with its own success than it does at least two other teams' failures. I, for one, am still laughing.

With all due respect, that's just ridiculous. He had a plan, went to Plan B when Plan A didn't work out, then went to Plan C when Plan B didn't work. And it has worked as he envisioned. Just give the man credit. You can slam him for the moves that don't work, after all, if you feel so inclined.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 11:15 AM
I would dispute the term "scraps". They are players who were perceived as having value, and many of whom do have value. In general, KW does a good job maximizing the value of pieces he isn't going to keep around. This year was another great illustration of that. But he did similar things in previous years as well.

Highly hyped A-ball players who can bring a good return should always be traded unless it's someone like Beckham right now who is likely to blow through A-ball very quickly due to their high level of development and is just spending time there because everyone does. Too much can change between A-ball and MLB. If someone wants to hand you the moon or even a TCQ for a highly touted A-ball prospect, you do it.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 11:23 AM
With all due respect, that's just ridiculous. He had a plan, went to Plan B when Plan A didn't work out, then went to Plan C when Plan B didn't work. And it has worked as he envisioned. Just give the man credit. You can slam him for the moves that don't work, after all, if you feel so inclined.

That's what's truly hilarious. Reilly is ripping on KW for moves that have proven to be great for the team.

It's like I said, people honestly believe they know more than the guys who run the team. They are always willing to tell you why, especially on the Internet and when they are wrong... dead wrong... they simply don't know how to slow down and admit it. They stay on the attack, hoping to deflect from someone pointing out that it's they who were in fact wrong.

Give Reilly credit, in his pre-season predictions he picked the Sox for 88 wins but to finish third. So even he felt the Sox had enough talent to be in the pennant race, what's surprising is he won't acknowledge that the difference between 88 wins and third place and 94 wins and first place is a few bounces of the baseball over the course of the season. Even by his predictions, this team isn't that far out of line, but he obviously doesn't think much of KW regardless...

It's Dankerific
08-22-2008, 12:35 PM
I got a good laugh reading this, this morning.

Anyways, I think there is no doubt that the TCQ quote and the Gavin Floyd quote should have the man laughing his ass off. Maybe even the detroit quote, but I'd give him more props for that one if he had mentioned the tigers would STINK either way, but thats more nitpicky.

The thing that gets me really laughing in this thread is not the original start of the thread. It take some tremendous imagination to not see the prophecy of KW's quotes. It's the ridiculousness of just how AWESOME or ****TY KW is.

If the KW brownnosers want us to think hes THAT AWESOME this year, then come out and say he **** the bed last year. The current view from them is that it was an unlucky year beset by injuries and players performing woefully under their career norms. OK, then that means that a large percentage of the roster has simply not become so injured and performed almost to their averages (except PK) and KW made adjustments to keep that team a contender. NOT the magical genius who took a super crap team to playoff contention.

In the same vein, all the people who think that 2007 was KW's bathroom handiwork need to come out and be alot more on the side of KW, genius. Because if he was responsible for that ****fest last year, he's responsible for their miraculous comeback.

But neither one of you KW extremists get to claim the most positive support for your argument for BOTH 2007 and 2008.

fquaye149
08-22-2008, 12:37 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

Ok, but you have to admit, it was a pretty bad move when he drafted Cedric Benson.

34 Inch Stick
08-22-2008, 12:39 PM
KW was dead wrong and I cannot believe none of you are able to admit it. Unlike KW's bold projection, the Cabrera trade did not make the Tigers any more competitive with the Sox than in previous seasons.

DumpJerry
08-22-2008, 12:41 PM
Ok, but you have to admit, it was a pretty bad move when he drafted Cedric Benson.
The Dodgers (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=1202) drafted Benson.

fram40
08-22-2008, 12:41 PM
Lots of comments about how good it is that Kenny missed out on Fukudome. Here is my take

"Super manager" Lou has over-used Fukudome. He started great - spectacular, really - and is now wiped out for the season, unproductive because he is tired. Or so I read - I don't watch many Flub games.

Compare the situation to Iguchi in 2005 - and how much Ozzie rested Gooch It seemed like twice a week he rested Gooch no matter how well he was playing. I remember Ozzie saying comparing the 130 game Japanese season to the 162 game MLB season and how Ozzie needed to rest Gooch early and often.

So he rested Gooch and he rested Gooch and Gooch never got tired and he stayed fresh and he contributed the entire season not just the first two months.

I suspect if Fukudome had signed with the Sox, Ozzie would have rested him twice a week ( playing BA ) and Fukudome would still be contributing Not burnt out due to Lou's overuse.

Not that I am complaining about getting Swish as Plan C ( or was it D?)

DumpJerry
08-22-2008, 12:45 PM
Fukudome said that one of the conditions he wanted for signing with a team was that he would be the first Japanese player in that team's history.

Given that, why do people think Kenny missed an opportunity?

By the way, I think that demand by Fukudome shows what kind of a person he is. Not a real team player.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 12:55 PM
I got a good laugh reading this, this morning.

Anyways, I think there is no doubt that the TCQ quote and the Gavin Floyd quote should have the man laughing his ass off. Maybe even the detroit quote, but I'd give him more props for that one if he had mentioned the tigers would STINK either way, but thats more nitpicky.

The thing that gets me really laughing in this thread is not the original start of the thread. It take some tremendous imagination to not see the prophecy of KW's quotes. It's the ridiculousness of just how AWESOME or ****TY KW is.

If the KW brownnosers want us to think hes THAT AWESOME this year, then come out and say he **** the bed last year. The current view from them is that it was an unlucky year beset by injuries and players performing woefully under their career norms. OK, then that means that a large percentage of the roster has simply not become so injured and performed almost to their averages (except PK) and KW made adjustments to keep that team a contender. NOT the magical genius who took a super crap team to playoff contention.

In the same vein, all the people who think that 2007 was KW's bathroom handiwork need to come out and be alot more on the side of KW, genius. Because if he was responsible for that ****fest last year, he's responsible for their miraculous comeback.

But neither one of you KW extremists get to claim the most positive support for your argument for BOTH 2007 and 2008.

Okay, how many players currently on the team were here when KW arrived and how many of them have been brought in by KW.

PK, Buehrle, Crede all were here when KW was promoted, I think the rest he brought in. Those guys came up through the farm system to some extent when KW was in charge of it, though, so he's had his hands on every aspect of this team on some level.

Thus you kind of need to go back further than 2007, IMO to decide if KW is a genius or a lucky chump. It's easy to cut it off there if you want to push the lucky chump answer, but you know... 2005!!!!!!1

doublem23
08-22-2008, 12:59 PM
If the KW brownnosers want us to think hes THAT AWESOME this year, then come out and say he **** the bed last year. The current view from them is that it was an unlucky year beset by injuries and players performing woefully under their career norms. OK, then that means that a large percentage of the roster has simply not become so injured and performed almost to their averages (except PK) and KW made adjustments to keep that team a contender. NOT the magical genius who took a super crap team to playoff contention.


The Sox under Kenny Williams:

2001: 83-79
2002: 81-81
2003: 86-76
2004: 83-79
2005: 99-63
2006: 90-72
2007: 72-90
2008: 73-53

One of these things is no like the other.

Is it that implausible to suggest that a team is allowed to have a down year once every decade? I'm not suggesting Williams should be absolved of 2007; plenty of those bullpen problems were caused by players he acquired, so he pretty much wholesaled them for 2008.

doublem23
08-22-2008, 01:01 PM
By the way, I think that demand by Fukudome shows what kind of a person he is. Not a real team player.

Not to mention, a pretty below average baseball player.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fukudko01.shtml

It's Dankerific
08-22-2008, 01:02 PM
I don't know how this really responds to my post. Nowhere in my post did I say that KW was a lucky chump, just that the extremists on both sides are out of hand.

But really VC, show me a GM thats been in his position for as many years as KW has and is NOT all over the current roster? You can probably put PK and Buehrle in the KW camp because they were re-signed too! People get old man!!

Also, I think while opening up discussion of KW entire tenure as GM gives you 2005!!! OMG!!! is also opens you up to only one postseason (2 if we make it this year) in all these years with a VERY winnable division except for '06.



Okay, how many players currently on the team were here when KW arrived and how many of them have been brought in by KW.

PK, Buehrle, Crede all were here when KW was promoted, I think the rest he brought in. Those guys came up through the farm system to some extent when KW was in charge of it, though, so he's had his hands on every aspect of this team on some level.

Thus you kind of need to go back further than 2007, IMO to decide if KW is a genius or a lucky chump. It's easy to cut it off there if you want to push the lucky chump answer, but you know... 2005!!!!!!1

It's Dankerific
08-22-2008, 01:09 PM
The Sox under Kenny Williams:

2001: 83-79
2002: 81-81
2003: 86-76
2004: 83-79
2005: 99-63
2006: 90-72
2007: 72-90
2008: 73-53

One of these things is no like the other.

Is it that implausible to suggest that a team is allowed to have a down year once every decade? I'm not suggesting Williams should be absolved of 2007; plenty of those bullpen problems were caused by players he acquired, so he pretty much wholesaled them for 2008.

2005? the only time we made the playoffs?

Look, I don't hate KW. I think he has some genius qualities. His TCQ pick up, getting TCM, his overall track record picking out pitchers. But there is room to disagree with his team creation and lack of postseason play in an era of 4 team playoffs per league and the size of our market.

I think both of the extremists are WAAAYY off. He's above average as a GM. He's the only Chicago GM to win a World Series in 90% of our lifetimes. But missing the playoffs so damn often SUCKS! Look at perpetual losers like the Twins and A's. They've been going to the playoffs like crazy. Look at the Angels, another team with just one WS, but in the playoffs a bunch, etc. Sorry if I don't consider our market or our team like the KC Royals and TB Rays of the world.

TDog
08-22-2008, 01:18 PM
Fukudome said that one of the conditions he wanted for signing with a team was that he would be the first Japanese player in that team's history.

Given that, why do people think Kenny missed an opportunity?

By the way, I think that demand by Fukudome shows what kind of a person he is. Not a real team player.

I had not read that. Why would a Japanese man demand to be the first from his country in an American team's franchise history? The Japanese teams I saw training in Arizona always seemed so tight and focused on teamwork.

I have read, though, that Fukudome has said he isn't tired. I don't watch Cubs baseball, either, but I have read that Fukudome denies he is tired. And if he were tired, I couldn't blame a manager for tiring out an outfielder before the All-Star break. I've heard baseball people assert that his slowing down can be attributed to teams figuring out how to pitch him, and for whatever reason, he has been unable to adjust. Maybe it's that combined with travel and the early season wearing him down.

I was a critic of the Swisher trade, and not because of the players the Sox gave up. Swisher is fundamentally grounded, and I'm sure he is a great guy to have on a team. I have never thought he was much of a hitter or a great outfielder, which is what he was acquired to be. If he gets hot for a few weeks and into October, his batting average will be irrelevant, though.

34 Inch Stick
08-22-2008, 01:21 PM
The Sox under Kenny Williams:

2001: 83-79
2002: 81-81
2003: 86-76
2004: 83-79
2005: 99-63
2006: 90-72
2007: 72-90
2008: 73-53

One of these things is no like the other.

Is it that implausible to suggest that a team is allowed to have a down year once every decade? I'm not suggesting Williams should be absolved of 2007; plenty of those bullpen problems were caused by players he acquired, so he pretty much wholesaled them for 2008.

If you are going to play the "one of these things" game then look at the other thing that is not like the others.

Throwing out the best and worst, which in all fairness appear to be singularities, you have the same type of record the Sox have had for most of the last 15 years. They always play above .500 but are rarely good enough to make the playoffs.

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-22-2008, 01:30 PM
:KW
That's why I'm the GM, bitch!

I think I just found my new sig.....:D:

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-22-2008, 01:34 PM
I've heard baseball people assert that his slowing down can be attributed to teams figuring out how to pitch him, and for whatever reason, he has been unable to adjust. Maybe it's that combined with travel and the early season wearing him down.


I had read that also about Fukodome; interesting how it came out AFTER the signing, with no recourse back for apologies or crucifixions by the local media to KW for not signing him. Shocker.

Maybe, just maybe, KF learned what it is to believe your own hype and hasn't played to the "stellar" performance level given to him by the Cubs and national media. IIRC, wasn't he on the cover of SI in mid May or early June? I don't recall Iguchi getting the same hype or PR (except from the Sox via marketing)....and Iguchi had a "slump" period the same as the team collectively did in 2005.

doublem23
08-22-2008, 01:47 PM
If you are going to play the "one of these things" game then look at the other thing that is not like the others.

Throwing out the best and worst, which in all fairness appear to be singularities, you have the same type of record the Sox have had for most of the last 15 years. They always play above .500 but are rarely good enough to make the playoffs.

True, but even with the disastrous 2007 season, there's been a marked upward trend. I think most of us rememeber Kenny's growing pains when he was first named GM, but right now the Sox are on pace to win 94 games. If they win 90, this will be the 1st time the Sox have won 90+ games in 3 of 4 years since they pulled it off 3 straight years from 1963-1965.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 01:56 PM
I don't know how this really responds to my post. Nowhere in my post did I say that KW was a lucky chump, just that the extremists on both sides are out of hand.

But really VC, show me a GM thats been in his position for as many years as KW has and is NOT all over the current roster? You can probably put PK and Buehrle in the KW camp because they were re-signed too! People get old man!!

Also, I think while opening up discussion of KW entire tenure as GM gives you 2005!!! OMG!!! is also opens you up to only one postseason (2 if we make it this year) in all these years with a VERY winnable division except for '06.

I didn't say you called him a lucky chump, it's been what people from the other extreme have been advocating.

Oh I agree, any GM given as long as KW has had will have built an almost completely new roster. KW's done it actually a few times thus you have to look at the results, IMO to decide which description is more adequate for KW.

How many GM's have won a WS since KW took over? I count 6 including KW. That means something. In addition, he has built a team that was a playoff contender deep into the season on at least 3 other occasions including this year. His teams to date are 74 games over .500 during his tenure for an average of 86 wins a year which would make most teams' fan bases pretty happy, but here people want to ignore all the successes and drive home the failures as if 2006!!!!!!1 outweighs all other items on the block and this year is pure fluke driven more by Detroit and Cleveland failing than the Sox succeeding. Every move is mocked because it wasn't the first choice, as if having a backup plan that still succeeds is a bad thing.

But everyone's smarter than Kenny, it's only a matter of time until he drives this team into 5 place permanently. :rolleyes:

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 01:59 PM
If you are going to play the "one of these things" game then look at the other thing that is not like the others.

Throwing out the best and worst, which in all fairness appear to be singularities, you have the same type of record the Sox have had for most of the last 15 years. They always play above .500 but are rarely good enough to make the playoffs.

Right and by throwing out his best, you erase the one time the team not only made the playoffs but won the whole thing for the first time in 88 years.

Now isn't that convenient.

Most fanbases aren't so anxious to tear down a guy who brings home a WS title and keeps the team in contention as KW has 4 out of the last 6 seasons.

TheVulture
08-22-2008, 02:03 PM
I don't need stats to tell me that Nick Swisher hasn't had a very good season. But evidently a lot of people on here do.

So what? It's not KW's job to make sure every player has a good season, it's to make sure the Sox have a good season and a chance to win. Last I checked the 30 or so guys that have been a part of the team KW put together have had us in 1st place nearly all year.

TheVulture
08-22-2008, 02:06 PM
He's the only Chicago GM to win a World Series in 90% of our lifetimes.

Yeah, I would guess 10% of the posters here are at least 91 years old.

White City
08-22-2008, 02:32 PM
This thread amazes me. Tiger fans, TIGER FANS, are being more gracious about Kenny's oracular performance than some of our own.

Exhibit A:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54979

No excuses, no over-thinking -- they were wrong, he was right, and they credit him. It's really that simple.

cws05champ
08-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Who says I'm not happy the Sox aren't the most boring, average team in the AL Central? When did I say I wasn't wrong about how the Sox would fare? Who says I'm not happy it's late August and we're talking about next week instead of next year?

The question was, "Who's laughing now?" There is no arguing that when Kenny Williams said the things he did in the offseason, they were ridiculous beyond belief. Gavin Floyd was still an awful pitcher and while KW huffed and puffed to the press about how sure he was he could make big moves, everyone except KW was making those moves.

"Aaron Rowand is our plan 1A."
"We're still trying to land a big fish."


So tell us, who's laughing now?
> You and a couple others certainly don't seem happy that we have a good team. I guess there are always going to be people that bitch and moan for something.
> When KW said "The tigers are better off to contend with us" it was tongue in cheek to a reporter, and he admitted so on one of his interviews on the radio about a month ago. It gets into print and people take it seriously....
> Who's laughing? KW and all of us, at you and a few others because you actually beleive that moves that KW made this offseason were bad....when he turned around a 72 win team into a pennant contender.

It's Dankerific
08-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Yeah, I would guess 10% of the posters here are at least 91 years old.

You have to account for time travellers.

spawn
08-22-2008, 02:52 PM
This thread amazes me. Tiger fans, TIGER FANS, are being more gracious about Kenny's oracular performance than some of our own.

Exhibit A:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54979

No excuses, no over-thinking -- they were wrong, he was right, and they credit him. It's really that simple.
Not for WSI it isn't. People here were right for crucifying KW during the off-season, even when he's been justified by the moves he made, and no amount of success will make change their minds.

oeo
08-22-2008, 02:58 PM
This thread amazes me. Tiger fans, TIGER FANS, are being more gracious about Kenny's oracular performance than some of our own.

Exhibit A:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54979

No excuses, no over-thinking -- they were wrong, he was right, and they credit him. It's really that simple.

Ah, nothing like laughing at the Tigers fans with their HUGE heads this offseason. If anyone deserved a big disappointment season like that, it was Tigers fans. It was in the bag, in the bag. :lol:

DumpJerry
08-22-2008, 02:59 PM
This thread amazes me. Tiger fans, TIGER FANS, are being more gracious about Kenny's oracular performance than some of our own.

Exhibit A:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54979

No excuses, no over-thinking -- they were wrong, he was right, and they credit him. It's really that simple.
Wow. That thread is classic. I love their posts after it was bumped.

rocky biddle
08-22-2008, 03:18 PM
Wow. That thread is classic. I love their posts after it was bumped.

This (http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1303075&postcount=17) is my favorite. I guess if you're gonna be a jerk-off, you might as well root for a team from Detroit.

Jerome
08-22-2008, 03:34 PM
After the growth of this team this season I'm gonna try and keep the doubting of KW to a minimum. Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Alexei, Linebrink/Dotel, Thorton-for-Borchard, Dye (he's still laughing all the way to the bank on that signing)...

mercy

KW is probably not the best GM in the game but he holds his own.

Heffalump
08-22-2008, 03:37 PM
> You and a couple others certainly don't seem happy that we have a good team. I guess there are always going to be people that bitch and moan for something.
> When KW said "The tigers are better off to contend with us" it was tongue in cheek to a reporter, and he admitted so on one of his interviews on the radio about a month ago. It gets into print and people take it seriously....
> Who's laughing? KW and all of us, at you and a few others because you actually beleive that moves that KW made this offseason were bad....when he turned around a 72 win team into a pennant contender.

Yeah, I can't stand these Melvins.....YOUR TEAM HAS BEEN IN FIRST PLACE FOR MOST OF THE YEAR....STOP BITCHING AND ENJOY IT.

As for KW, in my opinion, he has proven his worth and is one of the top GM's in baseball. Look at all the guys he signed in the winter of '05? Who woulda thought they would band together like they did. Then we have trades or signings like CQ, Danks, Floyd, Alexei... Come on, luck? Give me a break. This guy knows what he is doing. Has he had a bunch of crappy moves? Yes, but name one GM doesn't (or has as many "steals" as KW) in the same period as KW......You'd be hard pressed to find ANY.

jackbrohamer
08-22-2008, 03:38 PM
This (http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1303075&postcount=17) is my favorite. I guess if you're gonna be a jerk-off, you might as well root for a team from Detroit.

That also sounds like many of the things Phil Rogers wrote in the offseason and through the start of this season.

oeo
08-22-2008, 03:40 PM
That also sounds like many of the things Phil Rogers wrote in the offseason and through the start of this season.

Nobody ever said Phil Rogers was smart.

rocky biddle
08-22-2008, 03:44 PM
That also sounds like many of the things Phil Rogers wrote in the offseason and through the start of this season.

Phil Rogers is despicable.

Elephant
08-22-2008, 05:38 PM
Like you, or any of us, have any idea whether Swisher is a guy that puts someone "over the top." That phrase is not only overused, but silly. On a given team, any player who is good at anything could be the guy that puts a team "over the top." Swisher does plenty to help a team, including seeing the most pitches per at bat than anyone in the bigs. That is something the Yankees used to do back when they didn't sign stat guys and still won championships. Hey, you think anybody thought Jim Leyritz would be a guy that put somebody "over the top?"

???

Is this for real?

Anyway, Harden is light years more valuable than Swisher. I don't need to elaborate on that.

I guess he's loosey goosey in the clubhouse, and I'd rather have him than Konerko. But we have him AND Konerko (another failing on KW's part).


Give me a break. The White Sox have scored 659 runs which is good for 2nd in the AL and 3rd in all of the major leagues. Paul Konerko has been hurt all year but has played better lately and, presumably, is healthy again. In relief of Konerko, Nick Swisher has played great defense at first base. Right now, the Sox are getting fine production from their first basemen.

What's the use, some of the posters here are chronic complainers and would not be satisfied with an unbeaten season.

As for your "ass wart" comment, you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's see, 3rd in offense, and what 10th in pitching? That should get you more than oft-tied with Minnesota don't you think? The runs haven't come consistently, to beat something into the ground. But they just haven't.

Another failing of KW, evident there, is that he didn't fire Walker--in June of last ****ing year.



That's what prospects are for sometimes. IF they ever pan out, your argument might mean something, but right now Swish remains the better deal, more so with Gio looking like a middle reliever at best at the moment.


Uh, my argument was not that Beane fleeced us (another taboo), but that we gave up our best trade pieces for the wrong guy. In the winter there were several guys from Oakland I'd have rather had than him, and we'd be a better team for it, charming attitude or not. And if not Oakland, another team who was maybe more receptive to what we had to offer.

I don't even think KW sucks in any way. I've even said he's above average I think in this very thread. He's made plenty of mistakes as well as pulled rabbits out of hat on many occasions.

TheCommander
08-22-2008, 06:00 PM
However, I had not figured:
- Detroit's entire team would collapse on the first day of the season
- Most of Cleveland's team would sit this season out as well
- The Sox' new backup infielder wouldn't play better in the MLB than he did in Cuba
- Their no-name left-fielder, slated to be in AAA, would play like the forerunner for the AL MVP
- John Danks and Gavin Floyd would essentially become twice the pitcher either of them ever had been in the span of mere months
- Juan Uribe would be the starting third baseman
- Octavio Dotel would return to a form he hasn't shown since 2005
- Jermaine Dye would, at age 34, have one of the best seasons of his career

I thought we'd be looking at 2003/2004 again. Win a lot of games 9-7, lose a lot of games 3-2. If you want to tell me Kenny Williams foresaw his backup plan of a backup plan translating into the sequence of events it has. . . you know what? Don't, because I won't believe that. And I hope no one else does, either.

:cleo
"It must suck to be wrong all the time. Leave predicting the future to the professionals,mon!"

cards press box
08-22-2008, 06:00 PM
Let's see, 3rd in offense, and what 10th in pitching?

If by "10th" you meant 4th in the AL with a team ERA of 3.82 (0.01 behind Oakland with the 3rd best ERA in the AL), then I guess you would be correct. If, however, by "10th" you meant 10th in the AL, then you would be completely and totally wrong.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Elephant
08-22-2008, 06:41 PM
If by "10th" you meant 4th in the AL with a team ERA of 3.82 (0.01 behind Oakland with the 3rd best ERA in the AL), then I guess you would be correct. If, however, by "10th" you meant 10th in the AL, then you would be completely and totally wrong.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, I was wrong about the rankings--they're actually 9th in MLB, which is what I was talking about (not the AL). Sorry to spout out inaccuracies (even though I actually asked and didn't profess to know the exact rankings).

So when was the first time I showed that I didn't know what I was talking about?

Nice try.

EuroSox35
08-22-2008, 06:51 PM
People are being called idiots for preferring Torri Hunter to Nick Swisher? Those poor kettles

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 06:58 PM
I don't even think KW sucks in any way. I've even said he's above average I think in this very thread. He's made plenty of mistakes as well as pulled rabbits out of hat on many occasions.

.

K-Dub is Rick Hahn's puppet, man. It only makes sense.

...
08-22-2008, 06:59 PM
Elephants suck.

Elephant
08-22-2008, 07:02 PM
Elephants chew with their large molars developed for high volume herbaceous consumption.

Once again, you don't know you're talking about.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Elephants suck.

A personal attack? Really? Hmmmm... I don't think we allow that...

Elephant
08-22-2008, 07:08 PM
I don't consider it an attack but rather a blessing. For you see it not only set me up for that fine zinger, it also allowed me to show off my zoological knowledge! The poster ... shall be spared!

Or whatever's good for you, I don't care.

jabrch
08-22-2008, 07:11 PM
If by "10th" you meant 4th in the AL with a team ERA of 3.82 (0.01 behind Oakland with the 3rd best ERA in the AL), then I guess you would be correct. If, however, by "10th" you meant 10th in the AL, then you would be completely and totally wrong.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Are we comparing ERAs in the AL to the NL? That's...well...funny

...
08-22-2008, 07:11 PM
A personal attack? Really? Hmmmm... I don't think we allow that...

Horses chew

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 07:17 PM
A personal attack? Really? Hmmmm... I don't think we allow that...

In good faith, I don't think ... meant to personally attack.

(Now calling a poster's prom date a trick-turning crack ho' who's too stupid to charge a decent rate for her, um, services, on the other hand... why, that's just a standard jabrch response to a dissenting opinion. :rolleyes:)

Adele_H
08-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Phil Rogers is despicable.

KW deseves a 2-part "mea culpa" feature from Phil Rogers, but somehow I doubt Phil is in any hurry to admit his latest round of Kenny-bashing in the off-season might have been a tad premature...

FedEx227
08-22-2008, 08:54 PM
KW deseves a 2-part "mea culpa" feature from Phil Rogers, but somehow I doubt Phil is in any hurry to admit his latest round of Kenny-bashing in the off-season might have been a tad premature...

He's too busy finding any possible justifiable way to bash the McCarthy/Danks trade.

jdm2662
08-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Jesus Christ, this thread is beyond stupid. Are you some of you people that insecure that you were wrong about this year's team and can't enjoy it? They are in a heart of a very tight division race, yet we have this thread. Um, yeah. Quit whinning about off season moves, and crap from the past, and focus on the team now.

munchman33
08-22-2008, 10:55 PM
Jesus Christ, this thread is beyond stupid. Are you some of you people that insecure that you were wrong about this year's team and can't enjoy it? They are in a heart of a very tight division race, yet we have this thread. Um, yeah. Quit whinning about off season moves, and crap from the past, and focus on the team now.

Because, when it comes down to it, this season is all that matters.

voodoochile
08-22-2008, 11:12 PM
Because, when it comes down to it, this season is all that matters.

No no no... by all means let's recap what happened last year or worry about next year with the Sox in a tight playoff race in late August...

Munch if you are thinking about anything else aside from the moment at hand right here, right now in 2008 you just don't get it at all. This is why we play the games. The next 5 weeks are all that matter right now. It really is that simple. It's not about next year or minor leaguers or drafts or trades or injuries or anything but the game for the next 5-10 weeks.

The reason those things matter is so we can get to this point and take our crack at the big prize. That's it. If we never got to have this moment in time, those things wouldn't matter at all, but now that we're here, they don't mean a thing until after this moment in time passes. Then we can go back to thinking about all that other stuff in a hope to get back to this moment in time again somewhere in the future.

Live in the now, munch or you'll miss something great while your worrying about the future or what coulda woulda shoulda happened according to some expert. The experts no longer matter. This is why we play the games...

Daver
08-22-2008, 11:14 PM
No no no... by all means let's recap what happened last year or worry about next year with the Sox in a tight playoff race in late August...

Munch if you are thinking about anything else aside from the moment at hand right here, right now in 2008 you just don't get it at all. This is why we play the games. The next 5 weeks are all that matter right now. It really is that simple. It's not about next year or minor leaguers or drafts or trades or injuries or anything but the game for the next 5-10 weeks.

The reason those things matter is so we can get to this point and take our crack at the big prize. That's it. If we never got to have this moment in time, those things wouldn't matter at all, but now that we're here, they don't mean a thing until after this moment in time passes. Then we can go back to thinking about all that other stuff in a hope to get back to this moment in time again somewhere in the future.

Live in the now, munch or you'll miss something great while your worrying about the future or what coulda woulda shoulda happened according to some expert. The experts no longer matter. This is why we play the games...

Quiet.


Munch is busy scouring the internet for minor league players to grossly overvalue so he can say I told you so at some point in the distant future.

HangWiffum
08-22-2008, 11:42 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

but can his team beat the rays??

Madscout
08-22-2008, 11:45 PM
but can his team beat the rays??
What team has been? They just swept the Angels at that dome, and keep playing teams tough. They have the best record in the AL, nay, baseball with the Cubs losing and them winning tonight.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-22-2008, 11:48 PM
No no no... by all means let's recap what happened last year or worry about next year with the Sox in a tight playoff race in late August...

Munch if you are thinking about anything else aside from the moment at hand right here, right now in 2008 you just don't get it at all. This is why we play the games. The next 5 weeks are all that matter right now. It really is that simple. It's not about next year or minor leaguers or drafts or trades or injuries or anything but the game for the next 5-10 weeks.

The reason those things matter is so we can get to this point and take our crack at the big prize. That's it. If we never got to have this moment in time, those things wouldn't matter at all, but now that we're here, they don't mean a thing until after this moment in time passes. Then we can go back to thinking about all that other stuff in a hope to get back to this moment in time again somewhere in the future.

Live in the now, munch or you'll miss something great while your worrying about the future or what coulda woulda shoulda happened according to some expert. The experts no longer matter. This is why we play the games...

Print and frame please.Put this one up on the wall next to the Lombardi credo.

Konerko05
08-23-2008, 12:07 AM
Octavio Dotel.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 12:13 AM
Octavio Dotel.

Another great pickup. Can you picture where the Sox would be this season without OD in the bullpen? I mean those games he closed when Linebrink got hurt and mentally hit the wall while trying to close after Bobby got hurt and needed some time off.

The 3. something ERA as he's worked short and long relief doing whatever is called for while allowing few baserunners and pitching lights out on a regular basis.

Thanks for pointing him out and thank you, KW for signing him to a contract that many thought was too much money.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 01:10 AM
No no no... by all means let's recap what happened last year or worry about next year with the Sox in a tight playoff race in late August...

Munch if you are thinking about anything else aside from the moment at hand right here, right now in 2008 you just don't get it at all. This is why we play the games. The next 5 weeks are all that matter right now. It really is that simple. It's not about next year or minor leaguers or drafts or trades or injuries or anything but the game for the next 5-10 weeks.

The reason those things matter is so we can get to this point and take our crack at the big prize. That's it. If we never got to have this moment in time, those things wouldn't matter at all, but now that we're here, they don't mean a thing until after this moment in time passes. Then we can go back to thinking about all that other stuff in a hope to get back to this moment in time again somewhere in the future.

Live in the now, munch or you'll miss something great while your worrying about the future or what coulda woulda shoulda happened according to some expert. The experts no longer matter. This is why we play the games...

The chances of winning a World Series this year are pretty remote...I realize anything can happen if you make the playoffs...and I'm starting to think that, based on remaining schedule, even if we don't win the division we've got a good shot at getting there....but we're not the best team in the league, by far. The Angels and the Rays are both better, and we'd likely have to beat both in the playoffs.

I am always thinking about the future. And I'd rather be good every year than throw it all at one season, unless that season seemed truly special. Nothing about this year screams this team is a world beater.

DumpJerry
08-23-2008, 01:36 AM
but can his team beat the rays??
"His team" is 3-5 against the Rays this year. So, yes, his team can, and has, beat the Rays. If his team wins Saturday and Sunday, it will be 5-5 against the Rays this year.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 02:09 AM
"His team" is 3-5 against the Rays this year. So, yes, his team can, and has, beat the Rays. .

and at least 2 of those 5 wins, Sox nicely gift-wrapped for the Devil Rays.

cws05champ
08-23-2008, 08:40 AM
The chances of winning a World Series this year are pretty remote...I realize anything can happen if you make the playoffs...and I'm starting to think that, based on remaining schedule, even if we don't win the division we've got a good shot at getting there....but we're not the best team in the league, by far. The Angels and the Rays are both better, and we'd likely have to beat both in the playoffs.

I am always thinking about the future. And I'd rather be good every year than throw it all at one season, unless that season seemed truly special. Nothing about this year screams this team is a world beater.
Then just stop watching....

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 08:57 AM
The chances of winning a World Series this year are pretty remote...I realize anything can happen if you make the playoffs...and I'm starting to think that, based on remaining schedule, even if we don't win the division we've got a good shot at getting there....but we're not the best team in the league, by far. The Angels and the Rays are both better, and we'd likely have to beat both in the playoffs.

I am always thinking about the future. And I'd rather be good every year than throw it all at one season, unless that season seemed truly special. Nothing about this year screams this team is a world beater.

How sad...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 09:37 AM
How sad...

And how short-sighted your opinions are...I want a dynasty.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Then just stop watching....

Thank you. You've finally convinced me. After long debate over where I should donate my money, I've decided to donate it to education. The reading comprehension skills in this country are soarly lacking.

Nowhere in my post did I say "won't" or "can't" win. Nowhere did I say I didn't care. If you don't see a difference in what I wrote and the extreme you believe me to be, please don't respond to my posts. What you wrote is trolling.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 09:50 AM
And how short-sighted your opinions are...I want a dynasty.

Well good luck with that. I'd say that 2 WS titles in 4 years would be pretty special. Heck, any WS title is special. When this team plays up to its abilities, it is one heck of a team. Bird in the hand and all that, Munch, bird in the hand...

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 09:51 AM
Thank you. You've finally convinced me. After long debate over where I should donate my money, I've decided to donate it to education. The reading comprehension skills in this country are soarly lacking.

Nowhere in my post did I say "won't" or "can't" win. Nowhere did I say I didn't care. If you don't see a difference in what I wrote and the extreme you believe me to be, please don't respond to my posts. What you wrote is trolling.

If you are going to crack on people's comprehension skills, it's a good idea to spell all the words correctly...

Harry Chappas
08-23-2008, 09:52 AM
Thank you. You've finally convinced me. After long debate over where I should donate my money, I've decided to donate it to education. The reading comprehension skills in this country are soarly lacking.

Nowhere in my post did I say "won't" or "can't" win. Nowhere did I say I didn't care. If you don't see a difference in what I wrote and the extreme you believe me to be, please don't respond to my posts. What you wrote is trolling.

Your money would also help our children to avoid misspelling tough words like "sorely"

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 09:54 AM
Your money would also help our children to avoid misspelling tough words like "sorely"

Maybe he was trying to be humorous and instead of saying "greatly" he wanted to say they are lacking so much that the lacking itself is flying high...

Nah...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 10:26 AM
Well good luck with that. I'd say that 2 WS titles in 4 years would be pretty special. Heck, any WS title is special. When this team plays up to its abilities, it is one heck of a team. Bird in the hand and all that, Munch, bird in the hand...

Let's just win six.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 10:27 AM
If you are going to crack on people's comprehension skills, it's a good idea to spell all the words correctly...

Your money would also help our children to avoid misspelling tough words like "sorely"

Spelling doesn't matter. I'm not writing a paper here, it's an internet forum.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 10:30 AM
Spelling doesn't matter. I'm not writing a paper here, it's an internet forum.

How can you expect perfect comprehension if you refuse to follow the details to allow it?

DumpJerry
08-23-2008, 10:48 AM
Spelling doesn't matter. I'm not writing a paper here, it's an internet forum.
What's your point? I never understood why people who refuse to take the care to spell and write correctly fall back on the "it's the Internet" excuse. The Internet is all about communication. The more clearly you can communicate, the better understood your message will be. If that's not a reason to be more careful about spelling, syntax, etc., I don't know what is.:scratch:

jabrch
08-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Don't feed the trolls...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 11:06 AM
How can you expect perfect comprehension if you refuse to follow the details to allow it?

What's your point? I never understood why people who refuse to take the care to spell and write correctly fall back on the "it's the Internet" excuse. The Internet is all about communication. The more clearly you can communicate, the better understood your message will be. If that's not a reason to be more careful about spelling, syntax, etc., I don't know what is.:scratch:

It's not like I'm speaking leet. Everyone knew what word I meant.

I didn't mean so much to accuse him of reading comprehension problems...it was sarcasm. I'm mostly accusing him of trolling. He knew what I was saying, ignored it, and labeled me something else entirely to get a rise out of me.

Daver
08-23-2008, 11:49 AM
It's not like I'm speaking leet. Everyone knew what word I meant.

I didn't mean so much to accuse him of reading comprehension problems...it was sarcasm. I'm mostly accusing him of trolling. He knew what I was saying, ignored it, and labeled me something else entirely to get a rise out of me.

And now you have the absolute perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 11:51 AM
And now you have the absolute perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Bull****. I'm not a troll for disagreeing with fanboys who can't see past 2005, and I certainly don't act like people say things they don't to make them look extreme.

Daver
08-23-2008, 11:54 AM
Bull****. I'm not a troll for disagreeing with fanboys who can't see past 2005, and I certainly don't act like people say things they don't to make them look extreme.

Don't worry Munch, you're like the pet troll, you amuse me to no end.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 11:55 AM
Don't worry Munch, you're like the pet troll, you amuse me to no end.

Well alright then. But don't you dare put another troll before me...

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Bull****. I'm not a troll for disagreeing with fanboys who can't see past 2005, and I certainly don't act like people say things they don't to make them look extreme.

See past 2005? What about 2008? You dismiss this season as if it's nothing special with 5 weeks to go and the Sox in a dogfight for 2 different playoff spots on the premise that you don't care about this year unless it's part of a dynasty. You do realize that if the Sox just make the playoffs this year it will be only the second time in their history that they've made the playoffs twice in a 4 year span the other being 1917/19.

You're so eager to dismiss KW and the moves he has made just to get us to THIS MOMENT that you come across like some raving lunatic. It would be a beautiful forest if it weren't for all these damned trees as it were...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 12:00 PM
See past 2005? What about 2008? You dismiss this season as if it's nothing special with 5 weeks to go and the Sox in a dogfight for 2 different playoff spots on the premise that you don't care about this year unless it's part of a dynasty. You do realize that if the Sox just make the playoffs this year it will be only the second time in their history that they've made the playoffs twice in a 4 year span the other being 1917/19.

You're so eager to dismiss KW and the moves he has made just to get us to THIS MOMENT that you come across like some raving lunatic. It would be a beautiful forest if it weren't for all these damned trees as it were...

Oh come off it. At best, we're the fourth or fifth best team in the American League. We could win it all, but we'd have to be extremely hot. Whereas in 2005, you just knew we'd have a good chance of going all the way. We were as good as or better than the competition.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Oh come off it. At best, we're the fourth or fifth best team in the American League. We could win it all, but we'd have to be extremely hot. Whereas in 2005, you just knew we'd have a good chance of going all the way. We were as good as or better than the competition.

Based on what? I mean honestly, spell it out in objective terms. I think your hatred for KW is clouding your judgment.

We're certainly no worse than the 5th best team in the AL based on overall record if nothing else and the stats bear that out.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 12:14 PM
Based on what? I mean honestly, spell it out in objective terms. I think your hatred for KW is clouding your judgment.

We're certainly no worse than the 5th best team in the AL based on overall record if nothing else and the stats bear that out.

Can you make a case we're better than the Red Sox, Angels, or Rays? I couldn't. At least not without being completely biased. So we're really the fourth or fifth best team in the league, depending on how things shake with the Twinkies.

But to spell it out more...

The Angels have a better rotation, a better bullpen, and a balanced offense that scores even against tough pitchers.

The Rays have a better rotation and a better bullpen. The offenses are close to a wash.

The Red Sox have a better rotation, a better bullpen, and a better offense.

And it isn't that close. We're in this not simply because of Kenny, but MOSTLY because the central is down. And it's nice the gamble paid off for a playoff appearance. But without a **** ton of luck (or a **** ton more luck, based on whether or not you expected the Tigers and Indians to fall off the face of the planet), we're probably not a serious contender.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 12:33 PM
Can you make a case we're better than the Red Sox, Angels, or Rays? I couldn't. At least not without being completely biased. So we're really the fourth or fifth best team in the league, depending on how things shake with the Twinkies.

But to spell it out more...

The Angels have a better rotation, a better bullpen, and a balanced offense that scores even against tough pitchers.

The Rays have a better rotation and a better bullpen. The offenses are close to a wash.

The Red Sox have a better rotation, a better bullpen, and a better offense.

And it isn't that close. We're in this not simply because of Kenny, but MOSTLY because the central is down. And it's nice the gamble paid off for a playoff appearance. But without a **** ton of luck (or a **** ton more luck, based on whether or not you expected the Tigers and Indians to fall off the face of the planet), we're probably not a serious contender.

From a pitching perspective, Tampa, LA, Boston and Chicago are pretty much tied. Tampa has the best ERA and BAA, but it's not a huge gap (.17 on ERA and .015 on BAA) Even if we accept that those numbers make Tampa clearly the best pitching in the AL, the other three teams are 3-4-5 in the standings in ERA with Chicago at 3 and Boston leading in BAA. The Sox are 2nd in K's and first in walks allowed for all 4 teams. Minnesota really doesn't factor in these numbers as they are 12th in BAA and 7th in ERA but that's close to 1/3 run worse than the Sox and 1/2 run worse than Tampa.

Offensively speaking, Boston, Chicago are all but tied in runs scored and OPS. Minnesota is about 10 runs back but is close to 50 points behind Chicago (3rd in the AL) and Boston (2nd). Tampa is marginally better than Minnesota in terms of OPS but is close to 80 runs back from Chicago and Boston. LA is almost 80 points behind in OPS and has scored about the same amount of runs as Tampa.

You can make an argument from those numbers that Boston and Chicago are actually the two best teams in the AL and the fact is that none of these teams is clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Yeah, a hot streak would be great, but honestly, making the playoffs with this veteran squad, a good chunk of whom were here 3 years ago will give the Sox a legitimate shot at the title. You want to believe otherwise, feel free, but be aware, it's not backed up by the numbers...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 12:42 PM
From a pitching perspective, Tampa, LA, Boston and Chicago are pretty much tied. Tampa has the best ERA and BAA, but it's not a huge gap (.17 on ERA and .015 on BAA) Even if we accept that those numbers make Tampa clearly the best pitching in the AL, the other three teams are 3-4-5 in the standings in ERA with Chicago at 3 and Boston leading in BAA. The Sox are 2nd in K's and first in walks allowed for all 4 teams. Minnesota really doesn't factor in these numbers as they are 12th in BAA and 7th in ERA but that's close to 1/3 run worse than the Sox and 1/2 run worse than Tampa.

Offensively speaking, Boston, Chicago are all but tied in runs scored and OPS. Minnesota is about 10 runs back but is close to 50 points behind Chicago (3rd in the AL) and Boston (2nd). Tampa is marginally better than Minnesota in terms of OPS but is close to 80 runs back from Chicago and Boston. LA is almost 80 points behind in OPS and has scored about the same amount of runs as Tampa.

You can make an argument from those numbers that Boston and Chicago are actually the two best teams in the AL and the fact is that none of these teams is clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Yeah, a hot streak would be great, but honestly, making the playoffs with this veteran squad, a good chunk of whom were here 3 years ago will give the Sox a legitimate shot at the title. You want to believe otherwise, feel free, but be aware, it's not backed up by the numbers...

I didn't realize we jumped back up in pitching so quickly. Our entire rotation is two faced, so they'll have to be hot (because when they're not, they're brutal).

Our bullpen sucks right now. I don't know if that's fixable before the playoffs. We're pretty much banking on Linebrink returning from injury and being lights out.

I don't want to make the argument why runs scored isn't a good indication of an offense. You know what I would say, and it's your choice which side of that to believe. Just know that of all the offenses, I'd take the Angels offense in the playoffs, and they're probably the worst "on paper" of the bunch.

areilly
08-23-2008, 12:55 PM
I believe Kenny Williams foresaw his team battling for the AL Central crown. Looks like he was right. Even I believed they would be a lot better than most of the naysayers in the media and on this board thought they would be. If you don't believe me, MarySwiss will confirm it. We both talked about that when we met up during ST, and both of us thought the Sox had a great chance to win the division with the team constructed the way it is.

I believe you. I believe plenty of people saw this team contending, but there are people who see that every year. Likewise there are people who count this team out every year which is why, generally speaking, preseason predictions (especially in baseball) are totally worthless. And I'll put any preseason prediction I've ever made squarely into that category.

With all due respect, that's just ridiculous. He had a plan, went to Plan B when Plan A didn't work out, then went to Plan C when Plan B didn't work. And it has worked as he envisioned. Just give the man credit. You can slam him for the moves that don't work, after all, if you feel so inclined.

That's what's truly hilarious. Reilly is ripping on KW for moves that have proven to be great for the team.

You know, you're both right. I've said over and over how I wish Carlos Quentin was bad. And how I wanted Alexei Ramirez to flop. And how great it would've been for Danks and Floyd to break under full-time duties. And what a great year it would be for me, Sox fan, if the new bullpen was even worse than the old one. Man, last place would be SO AWESOME right now. Time and again I've insisted we are all worse off for some of KW's moves working out. How dare he get it right? Totally. You got me.

:rolleyes:

It's like I said, people honestly believe they know more than the guys who run the team. They are always willing to tell you why, especially on the Internet and when they are wrong... dead wrong... they simply don't know how to slow down and admit it. They stay on the attack, hoping to deflect from someone pointing out that it's they who were in fact wrong.

Again, you are right. I have no place criticizing front office moves. You know what the true sign of baseball genius is? Making the exact sequence of moves Kenny Williams has. Every single one of them, in the order he made them. All the pieces matter, as Freamon would say.

And, you know, I totally think I know more than the guys who actually have access to the information I don't. I mean, I don't have a scouting staff but who cares? Entire organizational units devoted to watching games in the far corners of the globe? **** you, White Sox personnel! I have my internet, and that is all that matters. In fact, in real life I never say anything as brash and brazen as "I wish we never traded for Swisher" or "Wow, that Javier Vazquez sure is an inconsistent pitcher" or "overall, that Griffey trade isn't going to help much." Never. Not in a million years. I save all that for computer time.

Give Reilly credit, in his pre-season predictions he picked the Sox for 88 wins but to finish third. So even he felt the Sox had enough talent to be in the pennant race, what's surprising is he won't acknowledge that the difference between 88 wins and third place and 94 wins and first place is a few bounces of the baseball over the course of the season. Even by his predictions, this team isn't that far out of line, but he obviously doesn't think much of KW regardless...

What I imagined was 88 wins consisting of the Sox having enough offensive firepower to obliterate the Royals and Orioles of the world, but not having a versatile enough attack to compete with the big kids. As I've said before, win 9-7 but lose 3-2. They've still assembled something resembling that style, but the self-destructions of both Cleveland and Detroit have inflated the Sox' (and Twins') win totals all the way to the top of the division.

> You and a couple others certainly don't seem happy that we have a good team. I guess there are always going to be people that bitch and moan for something.
> When KW said "The tigers are better off to contend with us" it was tongue in cheek to a reporter, and he admitted so on one of his interviews on the radio about a month ago. It gets into print and people take it seriously....
> Who's laughing? KW and all of us, at you and a few others because you actually beleive that moves that KW made this offseason were bad....when he turned around a 72 win team into a pennant contender.

Wrong. I faulted KW for talking a lot of **** going into the offseasons and not backing it up the way he said he would, as though any player F were a reasonable substitute for every player A. I faulted KW for pinning everything on reclamation project-type players and telling us it would all work out for the best when usually (as pointed out repeatedly in this thread) all it gets is a .500 team that only gave the illusion of postseason worthiness. I faulted KW for holding on to some bad players for too long. I faulted KW for missing his targets time and time and time again. I faulted KW playing the poor card to treat his major market team like they were the damn Reds.

But yes, you're right, I'm not happy the Sox have a shot at the playoffs. That explains the t-shirts I wear, and the games I go to, and what constitues most of what little TV I watch, and the only thing I listen to on the radio, and the thousand-something posts to this board, and my daily reading habits, and some of the artwork on my walls, and the things I talk about with my friends, family and co-workers. Totally. I hate the Sox and I want them to lose. Can you tell? Because I do. Can you tell I'm being serious here? Because I'm serious here.

Seriously.

TommyJohn
08-23-2008, 12:55 PM
I don't recall anyone thinking that the 2005 playoffs would be a cakewalk, or that the Sox were so great. They had losing records against both the Red Sox and Angels that year. The Central Division was down that year too. Minnesota was the defending champ but went down, and Cleveland didn't catch fire until August and September.

But whatever. The worst part of it is if the Sox don't win the World Series this year all the Negative Neds will swarm the boards with "I told you so.
Kenny's a moron. Ozzie **** the bed, the dugout, and wherever else you want to cram that ****ing cliche. Swisher sucks, Dotel sucks, my life sucks. They're losers, losers, losers." This will be the case even if they make the playoffs. Never mind that they have rebounded from a 72-90 season.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 01:00 PM
I don't recall anyone thinking that the 2005 playoffs would be a cakewalk, or that the Sox were so great. They had losing records against both the Red Sox and Angels that year. The Central Division was down that year too. Minnesota was the defending champ but went down, and Cleveland didn't catch fire until August and September.

But whatever. The worst part of it is if the Sox don't win the World Series this year all the Negative Neds will swarm the boards with "I told you so.
Kenny's a moron. Ozzie **** the bed, the dugout, and wherever else you want to cram that ****ing cliche. Swisher sucks, Dotel sucks, my life sucks. They're losers, losers, losers." This will be the case even if they make the playoffs. Never mind that they have rebounded from a 72-90 season.

We were the best team in baseball in 2005. There was no doubt about that. Remember wire to wire? Remember consecutive games with a lead? Remember one run game dominance? Remember manufacturing runs AND hitting home runs?

That team did everything right. The only people surprised by that team winning it all worked for a certain east coast sports network.

edit: on your second point...I'm less concerned with losing in the playoffs than I am the lasting effect some of the moves will have on the organization. We have no minor league talent. We have no trade chips to improve. So unless payroll is escalating, we're staring at very little room for improvement over the next few years. And if anyone gets hurt, we're absolutely ****ed.

whitesox901
08-23-2008, 01:04 PM
Incredibly, there are three statements Kenny Williams made during the offseason that most people laughed at. If not laugh, then perhaps he got one of these :scratch: or one of these:?: or a :rolleyes: or maybe even a :thud:. Here they are (not necessarily exact quotes):

1. After the Tigers acquired Miguel Cabrera: "All this has done has put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

2. I was looking to acquire not just a player like Carlos Quentin, but the Carlos Quentin.

3. I know 29 other MLB teams that would like to have Gavin Floyd.

KW was widely mocked for these quotes. I'm not posting this to point out that anyone was wrong. I was included in the group of people that had this reaction: :scratch:

But, who's laughing now? Kenny Williams - he's the man! :gulp:

I always said that in School last year too in Toledo-Metro after he said that, Tigers fans would get so pissed. :D:

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 01:37 PM
We were the best team in baseball in 2005. There was no doubt about that. Remember wire to wire? Remember consecutive games with a lead? Remember one run game dominance? Remember manufacturing runs AND hitting home runs?

That team did everything right. The only people surprised by that team winning it all worked for a certain east coast sports network.

edit: on your second point...I'm less concerned with losing in the playoffs than I am the lasting effect some of the moves will have on the organization. We have no minor league talent. We have no trade chips to improve. So unless payroll is escalating, we're staring at very little room for improvement over the next few years. And if anyone gets hurt, we're absolutely ****ed.

Well, then it's a good thing KW manage to make the MLB club both better AND younger this season...

munchman33
08-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Well, then it's a good thing KW manage to make the MLB club both better AND younger this season...

Yes, he did. And yes, it is. I'm not as anti-Kenny as many of you want me to be. But that doesn't mean I'm not extremely concerned about the direction of the organization as a whole, especially in the last year.

pmck003
08-23-2008, 02:16 PM
edit: on your second point...I'm less concerned with losing in the playoffs than I am the lasting effect some of the moves will have on the organization. We have no minor league talent. We have no trade chips to improve. So unless payroll is escalating, we're staring at very little room for improvement over the next few years. And if anyone gets hurt, we're absolutely ****ed.

I know! If we look to what KW has done before, we can see it happening again. Remember all the all-stars KW traded away before 2005? Imagine our team that year if we had Edwin Almonte, Royce Ring, Josh Fogg, Gary Glover, Joe Valentine, Rocky Biddle, Humberto Quintero, and Jeff Liefer. Imagine the players we could get for these guys today! Thankfully payroll increased by 10 million (65 mil to 75 mil) from 2004 to 2005, so KW was able to make an awesome team that year.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 02:20 PM
I know! If we look to what KW has done before, we can see it happening again. Remember all the all-stars KW traded away before 2005? Imagine our team that year if we had Edwin Almonte, Royce Ring, Josh Fogg, Gary Glover, Joe Valentine, Rocky Biddle, Humberto Quintero, and Jeff Liefer. Imagine the players we could get for these guys today! Thankfully payroll increased by 10 million (65 mil to 75 mil) from 2004 to 2005, so KW was able to make an awesome team that year.

After this year, we have an opening at 2B (or SS), SP, RP (two spots), C (backup), CF (assuming Swisher to 1B and Konerko to DH), and 3B.

With NO minor league talent to trade or use, we have to sign free agents to fill all those spots. Do you think we're going to do that?

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 02:20 PM
Yes, he did. And yes, it is. I'm not as anti-Kenny as many of you want me to be. But that doesn't mean I'm not extremely concerned about the direction of the organization as a whole, especially in the last year.

This sentence to me seems to be a complete contradiction.

You agree the team got better and younger.

Yet, remain concerned about the organization as a whole - though for all intents and puproses the organization exists exclusively to support the MLB team which again, got younger AND better.

Ramirez, Swisher, TCQ, Fields, Danks, Jenks, Floyd are all in their prime or will soon be entering it. All are Sox property for the next 3 years minimum. All have shown at least some ability to be successful on the major league level and several of them look like potential All-Stars.

Konerko, Buehrle, Vazquez, Linebrink and AJ are all here for about that same amount of time.

The minors have a couple of pitchers who are close to ready (Richard and Broadway) another guy who people are raving about - though he still has a fair amount of work to do - Poreda. Have a good couple of middle infielders drafted or ready for their shot (Getz and Beckham) and managed to sign their top 12 picks or something to instantly restock the farm system you are so worried about.

If anything the next 3 years seems like a wide open window to continue making runs at the playoffs.

Why are you so worried about it?

Brian26
08-23-2008, 02:22 PM
Oh come off it. At best, we're the fourth or fifth best team in the American League.

At best, we're the first or second best team in the league (behind the struggling Angels). At WORST, we're the fourth or fifth best team.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 02:24 PM
This sentence to me seems to be a complete contradiction.

You agree the team got better and younger.

Yet, remain concerned about the organization as a whole - though for all intents and puproses the organization exists exclusively to support the MLB team which again, got younger AND better.

Ramirez, Swisher, TCQ, Fields, Danks, Jenks, Floyd are all in their prime or will soon be entering it. All are Sox property for the next 3 years minimum. All have shown at least some ability to be successful on the major league level and several of them look like potential All-Stars.

Konerko, Buehrle, Vazquez, Linebrink and AJ are all here for about that same amount of time.

The minors have a couple of pitchers who are close to ready (Richard and Broadway) another guy who people are raving about - though he still has a fair amount of work to do - Poreda. Have a good couple of middle infielders drafted or ready for their shot (Getz and Beckham) and managed to sign their top 12 picks or something to instantly restock the farm system you are so worried about.

If anything the next 3 years seems like a wide open window to continue making runs at the playoffs.

Why are you so worried about it?

I like Clayton a lot, but don't see him being ready for another year. If we start him next year, I expect a 5+ era.

I don't like Lance Broadway, and fear him anywhere near the MLB team for an extended period of time.

I don't think Poreda will ever be a starter. And even relievers need more than one plus pitch. He's two years away from being an effective major leaguer, best case scenerio.

pmck003
08-23-2008, 02:24 PM
After this year, we have an opening at 2B (or SS), SP, RP (two spots), C (backup), CF (assuming Swisher to 1B and Konerko to DH), and 3B.

With NO minor league talent to trade or use, we have to sign free agents to fill all those spots. Do you think we're going to do that?

Looking at what KW has done before, yes I do. There is nothing he has done to show your point.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 02:27 PM
Looking at what KW has done before, yes I do. There is nothing he has done to show your point.

I don't even know how to respond to this, but I'll try...

WE DON'T HAVE ANYONE TO TRADE AWAY ANYMORE.

WE DON'T SIGN SEVEN QUALITY FREE AGENTS PER OFFSEASON. NOT EVEN THE YANKEES DO THAT.

Brian26
08-23-2008, 02:35 PM
After this year, we have an opening at 2B (or SS), SP, RP (two spots), C (backup), CF (assuming Swisher to 1B and Konerko to DH), and 3B.

With NO minor league talent to trade or use, we have to sign free agents to fill all those spots. Do you think we're going to do that?

Brian Anderson or Jerry Owens will deserve CF, most likely Anderson.

Adrian Beltre or Joe Crede for 3b (Crede signed to a 1-yr deal).

Orlando Hudson or Chris Getz at 2b (Hudson supposedly KW's #1 wish this offseason).

#5 SP- Broadway, Clayton or Poreda.

Re-sign Toby or bring up Lucy for backup C.

Relievers are hit or miss anyway. See how Russell, Logan and Wassermann end the season and go from there.

The Sox situation doesn't seem that dire to me. On top of all that, I can easily see either Konerko or Swisher traded this winter. I can't see how we can afford to carry both guys again next year. You have to think that trade could bring back some guys to fill holes.

tstrike2000
08-23-2008, 02:35 PM
At best, we're the first or second best team in the league (behind the struggling Angels). At WORST, we're the fourth or fifth best team.

Exactly. To be in late August and the Sox are 4 or 5 games out of having the best record in baseball is an accomplishment with the question marks we had going into spring training. We're not just talking about the AL, that's all of baseball. We don't blow a couple of those really critical losses earlier in the year and record wise we would be first or second best team in the AL, right there with the Rays and Angels.

pmck003
08-23-2008, 02:37 PM
I don't even know how to respond to this, but I'll try...

WE DON'T HAVE ANYONE TO TRADE AWAY ANYMORE.

WE DON'T SIGN SEVEN QUALITY FREE AGENTS PER OFFSEASON. NOT EVEN THE YANKEES DO THAT.

Holy ****! The Sox may have to start some unproven talent in some of these positions! KW may have to get guys like Alexi and TCQ!

Brian26
08-23-2008, 02:38 PM
I don't even know how to respond to this, but I'll try...

WE DON'T HAVE ANYONE TO TRADE AWAY ANYMORE.

WE DON'T SIGN SEVEN QUALITY FREE AGENTS PER OFFSEASON. NOT EVEN THE YANKEES DO THAT.

2005:

1- El Duque
2- Iguchi
3- Hermanson
4- Pierzynski
5- Dye
6- Widger
7- Jenks

:lockthread:

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 02:39 PM
I don't even know how to respond to this, but I'll try...

WE DON'T HAVE ANYONE TO TRADE AWAY ANYMORE.

WE DON'T SIGN SEVEN QUALITY FREE AGENTS PER OFFSEASON. NOT EVEN THE YANKEES DO THAT.

I don't see how you figure the Sox need two FA RP. Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel and Jenks are all back next season. That leaves room for minor leaguers to fill in the missing three slots. Russel can stay in long relief with no major problem.

Yes, they probably need a 5th starter, but they may free up Contreras money yet because if the injury prevents him from playing, I assume insurance will pick up the $12M tab. The Sox would then have that money to spend. In addition, they have about $16M from Crede and Cabrera coming free. A lot will depend on what Crede decides to do. He might accept arbitration if the Sox offer it. Other question marks that may or may not help in the IF situation include Uribe, Fields and Getz. Yes, Fields looked like garbage at 3B in his call up this season, but he has offensive potential at the least. Getz might be the opening day 2B next year with Ramirez sliding to SS and then they need to figure out 3B with three potential in house answers. It's not my first choice, but that would require very little of the $16M freed up and again that's before we discuss money that might be available from an insurance settlement with Contreras.

I know you hate the idea, but expect Swisher to be the opening day CF next year assuming Thome makes his PA and his option vests.

If the Sox decide to sign a cheap veteran FA to be the 5th starter until Richard is ready then Richard can proably stay in the majors as a reliever and save some money. If they go with Richard as #5 then they have some money to sign veteran relievers. That's before assuming a budget bump from a good year of attendance and a possible playoff windfall.

Daver
08-23-2008, 02:41 PM
I really doubt Contreas' contract is insured.

voodoochile
08-23-2008, 02:45 PM
I really doubt Contreas' contract is insured.

Okay, I just assumed it was a built in thing between MLB and some insurance company. I didn't realize it was case by case. I know you have said, it's no longer available at all since ARod signed his new contract, but assumed Contreras was signed before that so insurance would still apply.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 02:45 PM
Brian Anderson or Jerry Owens will deserve CF, most likely Anderson. I feel appeased.

Adrian Beltre or Joe Crede for 3b (Crede signed to a 1-yr deal). Not likely, to say the least.

Orlando Hudson or Chris Getz at 2b (Hudson supposedly KW's #1 wish this offseason). Hudson would be nice, but we'd have to spend $12 million per year. Who knows if that's feasible. Getz would be a disaster.

#5 SP- Broadway, Clayton or Poreda. What are three reasons we won't win the division next year?

Re-sign Toby or bring up Lucy for backup C. Probably.

Relievers are hit or miss anyway. See how Russell, Logan and Wassermann end the season and go from there. That's an awful lot of maybe there for something so crucial.



I think most of your post should be in deep pink.

oeo
08-23-2008, 02:46 PM
After this year, we have an opening at 2B (or SS), SP, RP (two spots), C (backup), CF (assuming Swisher to 1B and Konerko to DH), and 3B.

With NO minor league talent to trade or use, we have to sign free agents to fill all those spots. Do you think we're going to do that?

I don't know. Before this year all we needed was a LF, CF, SS, 2B (all starters), and a bullpen.

We couldn't fill all those, could we? Kenny knows what he's doing...we'll be fine. And before you tell me, 'no tradeable assets,' that's exactly what people were saying last year. We have talent in the lower minors that apparently people liked last year when we really didn't have anything to trade.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 02:52 PM
I don't see how you figure the Sox need two FA RP. Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel and Jenks are all back next season. That leaves room for minor leaguers to fill in the missing three slots. Russel can stay in long relief with no major problem.

Yes, they probably need a 5th starter, but they may free up Contreras money yet because if the injury prevents him from playing, I assume insurance will pick up the $12M tab. The Sox would then have that money to spend. In addition, they have about $16M from Crede and Cabrera coming free. A lot will depend on what Crede decides to do. He might accept arbitration if the Sox offer it. Other question marks that may or may not help in the IF situation include Uribe, Fields and Getz. Yes, Fields looked like garbage at 3B in his call up this season, but he has offensive potential at the least. Getz might be the opening day 2B next year with Ramirez sliding to SS and then they need to figure out 3B with three potential in house answers. It's not my first choice, but that would require very little of the $16M freed up and again that's before we discuss money that might be available from an insurance settlement with Contreras.

I know you hate the idea, but expect Swisher to be the opening day CF next year assuming Thome makes his PA and his option vests.

If the Sox decide to sign a cheap veteran FA to be the 5th starter until Richard is ready then Richard can proably stay in the majors as a reliever and save some money. If they go with Richard as #5 then they have some money to sign veteran relievers. That's before assuming a budget bump from a good year of attendance and a possible playoff windfall.


Considering you know my opinion of our minor leagues, I think you have an answer to why I think we need to sign two more relievers.

I don't think Kenny's stupid enough to leave us with Swisher in center again.

You're probably right that we'll give Fields a shot at third. It doesn't mean we should.

Great, next years plan involves a rotating fifth starter. Remind me again how well that used to work for us?

I have a pretty credible personal source that tells me that the Sox will still be paying for Contreras next year. I don't know if he wasn't insured, or if his current injury simply wasn't.

Daver
08-23-2008, 02:57 PM
Okay, I just assumed it was a built in thing between MLB and some insurance company. I didn't realize it was case by case. I know you have said, it's no longer available at all since ARod signed his new contract, but assumed Contreras was signed before that so insurance would still apply.

It's still available, it just costs three times what it used to, making contracts under 25 mil not worth insuring.

Brian26
08-23-2008, 03:17 PM
I think most of your post should be in deep pink.

What part?

JB98
08-23-2008, 03:21 PM
Brian Anderson or Jerry Owens will deserve CF, most likely Anderson.

Adrian Beltre or Joe Crede for 3b (Crede signed to a 1-yr deal).

Orlando Hudson or Chris Getz at 2b (Hudson supposedly KW's #1 wish this offseason).

#5 SP- Broadway, Clayton or Poreda.

Re-sign Toby or bring up Lucy for backup C.

Relievers are hit or miss anyway. See how Russell, Logan and Wassermann end the season and go from there.

The Sox situation doesn't seem that dire to me. On top of all that, I can easily see either Konerko or Swisher traded this winter. I can't see how we can afford to carry both guys again next year. You have to think that trade could bring back some guys to fill holes.

I wonder what the organization thinks of Fields after this year. Are his struggles all the result of an injury-plagued season? Or is he a bust? That's a tough question, and it's one the organization could use an answer to given Crede's uncertain status.

I wish we could count on Fields, but we can't. To me, third base is the biggest issue for the Sox looking toward the future. Even if they don't sign Cabrera, I feel good about the middle infield. We're fine in the outfield, as long as we can keep JD healthy for the duration of his contract.

Our pitching staff could use a little more depth, but we do have some quality in both the rotation and the bullpen.

That 3B question is a tough one, though.

munchman33
08-23-2008, 04:25 PM
What part?

All except resigning Toby.

jabrch
08-23-2008, 04:45 PM
I don't recall anyone thinking that the 2005 playoffs would be a cakewalk, or that the Sox were so great.

Nobody did..In fact, nobody gave us much a chance to get past Boston in the first round.

To say the Sox were a cakewalk to move through the post season in 2005 is revisionist history at its finest. It's trolling for a fight. And it is very characterisic of the anti-KW crowd. Create a fact to suit your arguement...BRILLIANT!

jabrch
08-23-2008, 04:48 PM
That 3B question is a tough one, though.

It is...Beckham MAY be the longer term solution. But he is 2 years out.

I wouldn't be in favor of it - but it wouldn't surprise me to see Uribe in the picture again. He's had a wonderful second half and might have played himself back into a 1 year deal at starters money.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 04:48 PM
Let's just win six.



^^^
:dtroll:


Kenblanks by way of BMR, basically.


.

Adele_H
08-23-2008, 05:07 PM
I believe you. I believe plenty of people saw this team contending, but there are people who see that every year. Likewise there are people who count this team out every year which is why, generally speaking, preseason predictions (especially in baseball) are totally worthless. And I'll put any preseason prediction I've ever made squarely into that category.





You know, you're both right. I've said over and over how I wish Carlos Quentin was bad. And how I wanted Alexei Ramirez to flop. And how great it would've been for Danks and Floyd to break under full-time duties. And what a great year it would be for me, Sox fan, if the new bullpen was even worse than the old one. Man, last place would be SO AWESOME right now. Time and again I've insisted we are all worse off for some of KW's moves working out. How dare he get it right? Totally. You got me.

:rolleyes:



Again, you are right. I have no place criticizing front office moves. You know what the true sign of baseball genius is? Making the exact sequence of moves Kenny Williams has. Every single one of them, in the order he made them. All the pieces matter, as Freamon would say.

And, you know, I totally think I know more than the guys who actually have access to the information I don't. I mean, I don't have a scouting staff but who cares? Entire organizational units devoted to watching games in the far corners of the globe? **** you, White Sox personnel! I have my internet, and that is all that matters. In fact, in real life I never say anything as brash and brazen as "I wish we never traded for Swisher" or "Wow, that Javier Vazquez sure is an inconsistent pitcher" or "overall, that Griffey trade isn't going to help much." Never. Not in a million years. I save all that for computer time.



What I imagined was 88 wins consisting of the Sox having enough offensive firepower to obliterate the Royals and Orioles of the world, but not having a versatile enough attack to compete with the big kids. As I've said before, win 9-7 but lose 3-2. They've still assembled something resembling that style, but the self-destructions of both Cleveland and Detroit have inflated the Sox' (and Twins') win totals all the way to the top of the division.



Wrong. I faulted KW for talking a lot of **** going into the offseasons and not backing it up the way he said he would, as though any player F were a reasonable substitute for every player A. I faulted KW for pinning everything on reclamation project-type players and telling us it would all work out for the best when usually (as pointed out repeatedly in this thread) all it gets is a .500 team that only gave the illusion of postseason worthiness. I faulted KW for holding on to some bad players for too long. I faulted KW for missing his targets time and time and time again. I faulted KW playing the poor card to treat his major market team like they were the damn Reds.

But yes, you're right, I'm not happy the Sox have a shot at the playoffs. That explains the t-shirts I wear, and the games I go to, and what constitues most of what little TV I watch, and the only thing I listen to on the radio, and the thousand-something posts to this board, and my daily reading habits, and some of the artwork on my walls, and the things I talk about with my friends, family and co-workers. Totally. I hate the Sox and I want them to lose. Can you tell? Because I do. Can you tell I'm being serious here? Because I'm serious here.

Seriously.


Whoa man, are you series, man? :o:

I don't understand.

Daver
08-23-2008, 05:19 PM
^^^
:dtroll:


Kenblanks by way of BMR, basically.


.

I have to defend the troll here, unlike BMR, he has never claimed to be smarter than everyone else in the known universe. He may think he is, but he has never promoted the idea here.

JB98
08-23-2008, 07:12 PM
It is...Beckham MAY be the longer term solution. But he is 2 years out.

I wouldn't be in favor of it - but it wouldn't surprise me to see Uribe in the picture again. He's had a wonderful second half and might have played himself back into a 1 year deal at starters money.

If Uribe wants to be our fifth infielder again next year, sign him up. He's effective defensively at three spots, which is what you need in that role. I'm not sure I want his streaky bat in the lineup over 140 or 150 games, however.