PDA

View Full Version : Jair Jurrjens


Optipessimism
08-19-2008, 08:24 AM
This kid seems to have kind of flown under the radar since he plays for the Braves, but he's having an excellent season so far. I didn't know anything about him when he went in the Renteria deal, but I'd read somewhere he was projected as a 4th starter. I watched a couple highlight videos of this kid though and damn, he's no 4th starter, not even close. IMO he's a future ace no doubt about it. *** were the Tigers thinking giving this kid up? He's got a fastball with sink that regularly hits 93-95 to go with a filthy change and some impressive composure on the mound, and on top of that, his name sounds really cool too.

Maybe Oblong could respond with a good answer, but there'd be no way in hell I'd give up a player like that when I'm relying on Kenny Rogers and Nate Robertson in my rotation.

oeo
08-19-2008, 08:25 AM
He was traded because Dombrowski wanted to assemble one of the most potent offenses ever. That worked out great.

Optipessimism
08-19-2008, 08:32 AM
He was traded because Dombrowski wanted to assemble one of the most potent offenses ever. That worked out great.
Yeah, it sure did. Wow that was a lopsided deal. That deal is in McCarthy-Danks+Masset/Freddy-Floyd+Gio territory.

jabrch
08-19-2008, 08:59 AM
Kenny was wise to pass on that one...Nice non-move. Sure - Miguel Cabrerra would have been better than Crede/Uribe by a mile - but Dontrelle over either Danks or Floyd would have sucked in many ways, the long term liabilities would have sucked, and we'd have been a worse team because of it.

Huisj
08-19-2008, 09:08 AM
Kenny was wise to pass on that one...Nice non-move. Sure - Miguel Cabrerra would have been better than Crede/Uribe by a mile - but Dontrelle over either Danks or Floyd would have sucked in many ways, the long term liabilities would have sucked, and we'd have been a worse team because of it.

And then factor in that Detroit quickly moved Cabrera to 1B because his defense was horrible, and it makes it look like it would have been even worse for the sox. His D was bad enough that they thought Carlos Guillen would be a better fielder at 3rd than Cabrera.

doublem23
08-19-2008, 09:26 AM
Kenny was wise to pass on that one...Nice non-move. Sure - Miguel Cabrerra would have been better than Crede/Uribe by a mile - but Dontrelle over either Danks or Floyd would have sucked in many ways, the long term liabilities would have sucked, and we'd have been a worse team because of it.

Jurrjens was traded for Edgar Renteria.

Oblong
08-19-2008, 09:54 AM
Well... this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94178&highlight=Renteria) is what I wrote on this very site right after the deal.

I do not like this move. Jurrjens was lights out in his few starts this year, and did have some shoulder issues, and Hernandez was getting rave reviews.
He's only a A outfielder but the Tigers are lacking in position prospects.

Great move for Atlanta.

I hated it when it happened and I obviously hate it now.

The only upside is that the Tigers may not have traded for or brought up Armando Galarragga. He was acquired in a minor league deal and came up with Willis got "hurt" in Chicago. He's pretty much matched Jurrjens this year. And maybe if Jurrjens isn't dealt to Atlanta he's then dealt to FL for the Cabrera deal. Nobody in that deal that the Tigers gave up has really done much yet. Maybin's doing what he did last year, hitting well in AA but striking out a lot.

Jurrjens had great command. Watching him pitch was a thing of beauty. I was excited. But he did have some injury issues in the minors and left one start in the majors after an inning or so with shoulder problems.

He's just one of those pitchers that you have to see. His balls have movement and he attacks the hitters. Moves at a quick pace.

One blogger said "Well I guess Jair Jurrjens is Dutch for John Smoltz". (For those who don't know/remember, the Tigers traded Smoltz in 1987 for Doyle Alexander).

Optipessimism
08-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Well... this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94178&highlight=Renteria) is what I wrote on this very site right after the deal.



I hated it when it happened and I obviously hate it now.

The only upside is that the Tigers may not have traded for or brought up Armando Galarragga. He was acquired in a minor league deal and came up with Willis got "hurt" in Chicago. He's pretty much matched Jurrjens this year. And maybe if Jurrjens isn't dealt to Atlanta he's then dealt to FL for the Cabrera deal. Nobody in that deal that the Tigers gave up has really done much yet. Maybin's doing what he did last year, hitting well in AA but striking out a lot.

Jurrjens had great command. Watching him pitch was a thing of beauty. I was excited. But he did have some injury issues in the minors and left one start in the majors after an inning or so with shoulder problems.

He's just one of those pitchers that you have to see. His balls have movement and he attacks the hitters. Moves at a quick pace.

One blogger said "Well I guess Jair Jurrjens is Dutch for John Smoltz". (For those who don't know/remember, the Tigers traded Smoltz in 1987 for Doyle Alexander).
I'm surprised about the shoulder issues, he seems to have a pretty clean delivery. He's got a strong, durable-looking frame already and he's only 22, so with a Major League conditioning program he should be fine I'd think. He just has the look of a workhorse.

He's got some electric stuff and I looked at his walk numbers, which have been very impressive throughout his pro career. Obviously his K/9 numbers aren't all that high, and that might have been a reason why I read stupid back-end starter projections, but all those K numbers show is that he's got dominant stuff and prefers to pitch to contact. You've got to love a kid who is not afraid of the bat and can paint the corners.

I didn't see anywhere near as much of Miller as you guys did, but I honestly never liked Miller and I still think he's going to have an injury-riddled career. From a Tiger fans perspective, and forgive me because I don't know hardly anything about your farm system, but in the Cabrera deal the only players I'd have been concerned about losing were Maybin and Eulogio DeLaCruz. Even then though, you're still talking about a probable future HOFer in Cabrera so it's definitely worth taking that chance. But Miller, I'd much rather have Jurrjens than him, and I'm surprised how Jurrjens wasn't rated anywhere near as high. He just seems like the much better bet for success, at least to me.

doublem23
08-19-2008, 10:36 AM
Sometimes you got to break an egg to make an omelette. Easy to look back to the trade now and say it was a horrible mistake (it was), but Detroit looked like they assembled a team that was going to walk away with this division.

Ultimately, I'd rather have a GM that takes some chances and goes for the win when he can rathern than a guy who just hordes prospects and never makes any significant moves. *Cough*Ron Schueler*Cough*

Oblong
08-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Sometimes you got to break an egg to make an omelette. Easy to look back to the trade now and say it was a horrible mistake (it was), but Detroit looked like they assembled a team that was going to walk away with this division.

Ultimately, I'd rather have a GM that takes some chances and goes for the win when he can rathern than a guy who just hordes prospects and never makes any significant moves. *Cough*Ron Schueler*Cough*

Absolutely. Dombrowski went for it all. I will give him credit for that. Just don't do it all the time. I calmed down after teh deal by saying "Well, we traded an injury prone rookie who's made a handful of starts and a toolsy 19 year old in A ball for an All Star shortstop with decent glove who will hit .300. For a team that wants to win now, that's the right move".

I didn't see anywhere near as much of Miller as you guys did, but I honestly never liked Miller and I still think he's going to have an injury-riddled career. From a Tiger fans perspective, and forgive me because I don't know hardly anything about your farm system, but in the Cabrera deal the only players I'd have been concerned about losing were Maybin and Eulogio DeLaCruz. Even then though, you're still talking about a probable future HOFer in Cabrera so it's definitely worth taking that chance. But Miller, I'd much rather have Jurrjens than him, and I'm surprised how Jurrjens wasn't rated anywhere near as high. He just seems like the much better bet for success, at least to me.

I agree with your assessment on Miller. He's really not progressed this year. Jurrjens was rated very highly though. I think draft position plays a lot into prospect rankings too. Miller was a top pick contender and only fell to the Tigers because of signability. Because of that he'll get rated higher in my opinion. But I think any GM has to make the Cabrera deal, especially when it involves only prospects. You hope a guy like Maybin will get to be as good as Cabrera is, regardless of position, and if you can acquire him at 24 years old, then do it. I had no issues with that trade at all. I view Willis as a throw in on Florida's side. We had to take him in order to complete the deal.


It's funny how as a fan, no matter how objective you try to be, you overvalue your own guys and as soon as they are gone you start thinking "well, he probably isn't as good as I thought" and then you undervalue him.

The miserable 2003, 2004, and 2005 seasons turned into Cabrera and Verlander. I'll take it.

oeo
08-19-2008, 11:29 AM
I had no issues with that trade at all. I view Willis as a throw in on Florida's side. We had to take him in order to complete the deal.

Was he just a throw in? They signed him to an extension, which was the biggest mistake.

Oblong
08-19-2008, 11:50 AM
Was he just a throw in? They signed him to an extension, which was the biggest mistake.

I think that was done to show Cabrera that they were serious about ponying up. I know it's partial wishful thinking on my part because it frightens me to think that scouts actually recommended him, considering how bad he's been, even in Florida last year.

The "official" story is that Mike Ilitch called Dombrowski and said "I hear Cabrera is available, let's see if we can get him". So they talk with Florida and they want Maybin and Miller and DD says to throw in Willis. Along with the other minor leaguers. Deal gets done in a few hours. That's how fantasy baseball trades get made. I suspect in the real world involving tens of millions of dollars that Dombrowski and his assistant Al Avila knew after 2007 ended that Cabrera would be available and already had it worked out that they'd be willing to give up those two guys, along with others. And I'm sure other organizations did the same. Then Florida tells them they have to take Willis too. (He was due a raise in arbitration, I believe the Tigers only "bought" one year of FA). Acquiring a player who's contract will equal half the construction costs of Comerica Park is not something that is finalized in a matter of hours.

As for Willis... he's been promoted to AAA. He changed his delivery and got his control problems worked out in a big way. He's still giving up hits but is pitching much better.

Whitesoxfan23
08-19-2008, 12:04 PM
I am a Braves fan. Not hardcore or anything, like the Sox but I like them. This Jurrjens guy is good. I would love to see him in a Sox uniform.

Optipessimism
08-19-2008, 12:34 PM
Sometimes you got to break an egg to make an omelette. Easy to look back to the trade now and say it was a horrible mistake (it was), but Detroit looked like they assembled a team that was going to walk away with this division.

Ultimately, I'd rather have a GM that takes some chances and goes for the win when he can rathern than a guy who just hordes prospects and never makes any significant moves. *Cough*Ron Schueler*Cough*

Very true, but I just think kids like this you don't give up unless you're getting a superstar, like Cabrera but not Renteria, and if you have an iffy rotation you don't deal them at all unless you get a proven veteran ace or #2.

I'm all for trading prospects, but it's not often you find a talent like this laying around. This kid just seems to be the total package though - and maybe I'm just smitten - but it seems pretty rare that you find a pitching prospect with very good stuff, a strong frame and also isn't mentally weak.

I'll always favor the guys who come at hitters instead of the ones that look to strike everyone out and end up falling way behind in the count because of it. Usually when you have a young pitcher with that kind of stuff the first thing they want to do is **** around with breaking balls off the plate when they get ahead, and they end up walking bottom of the lineup hitters and getting hurt when they have to come right at the big guys. I guess I'm mostly impressed with this guy's demeanor, and while it's not something that most people would've known about, the scouting staff should have seen from the get-go. If the Sox had anyone like this I'd probably go all Munchman-crazy if we traded him for anything less than what I've mentioned above. But trading prospects like skinny-ass Brandon McCarthy with his elbow flying all over the place, even with the sick numbers he put up in the minors and his few key dominant performances down the stretch in '05, is perfectly fine with me.

As you say though, it's all in hindsight and if the Tigers had run away with the division this year and Renteria played a huge role in that, the trade would probably be justified.

Optipessimism
08-19-2008, 12:40 PM
I think that was done to show Cabrera that they were serious about ponying up. I know it's partial wishful thinking on my part because it frightens me to think that scouts actually recommended him, considering how bad he's been, even in Florida last year.

The "official" story is that Mike Ilitch called Dombrowski and said "I hear Cabrera is available, let's see if we can get him". So they talk with Florida and they want Maybin and Miller and DD says to throw in Willis. Along with the other minor leaguers. Deal gets done in a few hours. That's how fantasy baseball trades get made. I suspect in the real world involving tens of millions of dollars that Dombrowski and his assistant Al Avila knew after 2007 ended that Cabrera would be available and already had it worked out that they'd be willing to give up those two guys, along with others. And I'm sure other organizations did the same. Then Florida tells them they have to take Willis too. (He was due a raise in arbitration, I believe the Tigers only "bought" one year of FA). Acquiring a player who's contract will equal half the construction costs of Comerica Park is not something that is finalized in a matter of hours.

As for Willis... he's been promoted to AAA. He changed his delivery and got his control problems worked out in a big way. He's still giving up hits but is pitching much better.
I agree about the Cabrera situation being discussed at length well before the formal trade discussions took place. Our GM sat down with Dye and Buehrle mid-season last year while they were both in their walk years and told them he was going to go hard after Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera, so if Kenny knew Cabrera would definitely be available in July of '07 then I'm sure 28 other teams knew that as well. I'm guessing the three main suitors for Cabrera in the Sox, Tigers, and Angels all had internal discussions about him well before their organizational meetings.

palehozenychicty
08-19-2008, 01:18 PM
You definitely have to break an omelette to make eggs, especially for Cabrera. They probably should have waited to sign him for a monstrous deal, though, as his desire and weight were in question.
As for Jurrjens, you have to keep young pitching in today's game. He wasn't worth a peripatetic, mentally fragile stiff like Renteria. Nobody when talking about Detroit thought their pitching would be bad except people on this board. I thought it'd be bad too, especially that bullpen. Imagine if they had Jurrjens right now to go with Verlander. They'd probably still be alive in the wild card, at least.

BringBackBlkJack
08-19-2008, 01:36 PM
I haven't had the pleasure to see Jurrjens pitch in person yet, but outside of Chipper's 1st half run at .400, Jair is pretty much all the Braves have had to celebrate this year.

soxinem1
08-19-2008, 01:52 PM
I watched him pitch earlier in the year, and was impressed with his mound presence. He reminded me of a right-handed Santana.

In defense of DET, they made the move they had to make. No arm-chair managing should even be mentioned, as too many posters on this board were ready to give the Tigers the World Series title when DD made these trades.

One thing I thought was cool is almost the entire Curacao Little League team naming Jurrjens as their favorite player. Rare does a rookie make that kind of impression that quickly.