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thomas35forever
08-17-2008, 04:25 PM
My dad thinks the Cubs this year are playing like us in '05. I was reluctant to agree at first, but upon further investigation discovered that if the Cubs win today (and likely will), they'll be just one game off the pace of our '05 team. Now this Cubs team is the best hitting team in the NL and has the second-lowest ERA in the NL. In '05 we have great pitching and just an average offense. Is it possible this Cubs team could turn out better than the 05 Sox? Then again, a better regular-season record won't mean a thing without the ring.

twentywontowin
08-17-2008, 04:30 PM
Not only are they playing incredible baseball, they also have that certain element of luck that we had in 2005.

This is probably the best team the Cubs have ever had. If they didn't make the World Series, I'd be very surprised.

DumpJerry
08-17-2008, 04:31 PM
One major difference in favor of the '05 Sox: they played in the American League. The '08 Cubs are playing in a National League which is a very weak league this year.

We had a seven week period where the Indians played .700+ ball to keep us on our toes. The Cubs don't have a team in their division doing that to them this year.

twentywontowin
08-17-2008, 04:42 PM
One major difference in favor of the '05 Sox: they played in the American League. The '08 Cubs are playing in a National League which is a very weak league this year.

We had a seven week period where the Indians played .700+ ball to keep us on our toes. The Cubs don't have a team in their division doing that to them this year.

While they don't have a team playing .700 ball chasing them, they do have two good teams right behind them that would be in 1st place in the other two NL divisions, which is going to make for some good baseball.

If this was 2006, the Cubs would have a 20 game lead.

There's still a lot of baseball to be played, but I think the Cubs could hold them.

MarySwiss
08-17-2008, 05:00 PM
Well, here's how I look at it:

We won the World Series.
They haven't won anything yet.

And as Dump said, they play in the junior league.

The Cubs could..and probably will...win the division. SO what? They won it last year, didn't they?

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2008, 05:04 PM
To reiterate the point made by Dump and Mary: The NL is terrible. This may be the worst NL in the history of ever. The league is terrible.

Just look at the Cubs' interleague record - 6-9 - to see how they play against better teams.

Being the best team in the National League is like being the best team in the International League.

SaltyPretzel
08-17-2008, 05:07 PM
To reiterate the point made by Dump and Mary: The NL is terrible. This may be the worst NL in the history of ever. The league is terrible.

Just look at the Cubs' interleague record - 6-9 - to see how they play against better teams.

Being the best team in the National League is like being the best team in the International League.

Only 3 teams in the NL were over .500 against the AL this year.

CMPDragRacing
08-17-2008, 05:09 PM
To reiterate the point made by Dump and Mary: The NL is terrible. This may be the worst NL in the history of ever. The league is terrible.

Just look at the Cubs' interleague record - 6-9 - to see how they play against better teams.


look at the overall interleague record this year. didnt the american league win 2/3 of the games.

Brian26
08-17-2008, 05:15 PM
This is probably the best team the Cubs have ever had. If they didn't make the World Series, I'd be very surprised.

I wouldn't be suprised if they make it; but I wouldn't be suprised if they don't make it either. Much better teams have bombed in the playoffs, with the 2001 Mariners being the most prolific example.

The regular season is nothing but a dress rehearsal for the playoffs, so any comparison between 05 and 08 is premature to begin with. The Cubs haven't been tested yet this season. That could come back to haunt them in the playoffs.

cws05champ
08-17-2008, 05:17 PM
Ohhhh here we go. I knew this inevitablly would be brought up. If the Cubs win 99 or more games, and then go 11-1 in the playoffs, throwing 4 straight complete games, I'll give them their due and go into hiding. Until then, lets not make any comparisons to the best baseball team we have had in Chicago in a generation.

Brian26
08-17-2008, 05:21 PM
The Cubs could..and probably will...win the division. SO what? They won it last year, didn't they?

If they win their division, they become the first professional Chicago baseball franchise to go to the postseason two years in a row. It's not as important as a World Series title, and there's a tint of hollowness with two extra rounds of playoffs and a weak division, but give them credit.

Brian26
08-17-2008, 05:22 PM
Until then, lets not make any comparisons to the best baseball team we have had in Chicago in a generation.

Arguably the best Chicago team ever.

thomas35forever
08-17-2008, 05:24 PM
If they win their division, they become the first professional Chicago baseball franchise to go to the postseason two years in a row. It's not as important as a World Series title, and there's a tint of hollowness with two extra rounds of playoffs and a weak division, but give them credit.
Actually, they did it three years in a row in the 1900s, so it's been done.

Brian26
08-17-2008, 06:01 PM
Actually, they did it three years in a row in the 1900s, so it's been done.

My mistake. Yes, the Cubs went to the Series in 1906, 07 and 08.

The Model T was first produced off Ford's assembly line in 1909.

BainesHOF
08-17-2008, 06:12 PM
One major difference in favor of the '05 Sox: they played in the American League. The '08 Cubs are playing in a National League which is a very weak league this year.

This point can't be emphasized enough. The National League is like a JV league these days. Obviously the Cubs are a good team this season, but they're not anywhere as good as their record. This should be fairly obvious. But many of their fans and so much of the media, which should know better, think they're this great team, and they're clearly not.

They're very good at the corners and strong behind the plate, but then their lineup is so so. Soriano is obviously talented and at times extremely productive, but his day-to-day actions are that of a loser. Fukudome is extremely overrated. Even though Cubs fans and his countrymen made him an All Star, he's a below average right fielder. The Cubs rotation is a definite strength, but I'm not sure it contains a true No. 1. While good, Zambrano is a bit consistent and overrated. Harden is outstanding...for five innings per start. Dempster has been terrific, though in a weak league. Lilly is a good No. 4. The bullpen is a big question mark, though it continues to get by thanks to the weak competition.

Now, they've got tremendous clutch contributions from some castoffs and bench players, and have a great momentum going right now.

But I think what you're looking at in the 2008 Cubs is fool's gold. But even a so-so team can win the World Series. All they have to do is win a weak National League and then upset one team in the World Series like the Cardinals did in 2006.

Will it happen? I doubted. They're the Cubs.

Rockabilly
08-17-2008, 06:21 PM
If the Cubs played in the AL they would be the 6th best team...

The Red Sox, White Sox, Angels, Twins, and Rays are better team than the Cubs are..

If the Yankees were healthy the Cubs would even dropped a spot

It's Time
08-17-2008, 07:34 PM
They're very good at the corners and strong behind the plate,

The Cubs rotation is a definite strength,

Now, they've got tremendous clutch contributions from some castoffs and bench players, and have a great momentum going right now.

.

Let me introduce you to the 2005 White Sox.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:48 PM
:whocares

WSox597
08-17-2008, 07:53 PM
The Cubs no doubt have a very good team. However, I believe their relief pitching to be suspect, unlike the White Sox in 2005.

If by some quirk of fate, the Sox meet the Cubs in the World Series, I like the Sox' chances.

That would be sweet, especially in the 100th anniversary year of Cubs futility.

soxinem1
08-17-2008, 08:03 PM
I'm not a cub fan by any means, however:

They have a very solid team on paper that, as much as I hate to say it, matches up well against any AL contender.

MIL may be a playoff team as well, but they might have blown their chance to win the NL Central with the four game fold at Miller Park they pulled last month.

I also think Lou is one of the best in baseball in forming a line up, and by far the best at putting together and utilizing a bullpen. Lou is old school and has no problem sitting a $10 million a year salary or a veteran on the bench if someone else is doing more to help his team win.

This cub team has some of the best players at positions I have ever seen play for them, and Lou is getting the max out of everyone. This year, the Sox have about 30 more homers, but the cubs have outscored us by 50!

But the jealous comparison to the 2005 White Sox is not really vaild, as they were good on the road all year, and a team that had to manufacture runs. It seems, other than the four game sweep in MIL, this cub team does not play good teams well on the road.

Still, barring an outright collapse, I doubt they will be one-and-done in October.

cub killer
08-17-2008, 08:13 PM
Arguably the best Chicago team ever.

I 2nd that. Because of how they came together in the postseason, where it matters, the 2005 World Champion White Sox are the best baseball team this city has ever had

Optipessimism
08-17-2008, 08:53 PM
'05 Sox:
-played in a weak division of a strong league
-more fundamentally sound team
-4 workhorses in the rotation (Harden and Lily are not)
-more balanced lineup
-better bullpen
-better defense at 3B, SS, 2B, C, CF, and possibly in LF (Pods' experience vs. Soriano's arm)

'08 Cubs:
-playing in a weak division of a weak league
-much more offensive firepower than the '05 Sox

I think the Cubs are going to fall in the WS if they get there and face the Angels. The Angels are my pick over everyone this year, but if the Angels for some reason don't make it, then the Cubs have a chance. They match up well against any other playoff team.

If the Sox can make the playoffs and knock off the Angels, I think the crosstown WS actually happens. AZ and the BrewCrew are dangerous in a short series with their SP, but the Cubs have the better team all-around.

russ99
08-17-2008, 09:05 PM
But I think what you're looking at in the 2008 Cubs is fool's gold. But even a so-so team can win the World Series. All they have to do is win a weak National League and then upset one team in the World Series like the Cardinals did in 2006.

Will it happen? I doubted. They're the Cubs.

They're certainly a good team and should make the playoffs, but I feel they've been given a free pass on their many weaknesses by both national and local media because they're the Cubs and the anniversary year is good copy.

We'll see how they do in a playoff series with a fading Zambrano, a questionable pen and the opposition shutting down Lee and Ramirez... Until then, no comparisons. And shouldn't we be comparing the 2008 Sox too as our team is no slouch this year.

Besides, the Cubs haven't had that run of bad luck/slumps that all baseball teams have once a year. That magnified by the increasing pressure on them this year may change things really quick.

And if by some alignment of planets and quirk of fate the Sox meet them in the Series, I like our chances with that home field advantage.

Demafrost
08-17-2008, 09:25 PM
Not sure where the Cubs bullpen is suspect. I don't think its better than the White Sox (when intact) but it's hard to look at a pen anchored by a Kerry Wood and a Carlos Marmol and say they are bad. Bobby Howry is bad, but the rest of the pen has been solid. You can point to Carlos Marmol's late June/early July collapse, but the fact is he hasn't given up a run since the All Star game and his walks have decreased. One thing to look at with Marmol is that even during his "slump" he was still almost unhittable.

It's Time
08-17-2008, 09:25 PM
'05 Sox:
-played in a weak division of a strong league
-more fundamentally sound team
-4 workhorses in the rotation (Harden and Lily are not)
-more balanced lineup
-better bullpen
-better defense at 3B, SS, 2B, C, CF, and possibly in LF (Pods' experience vs. Soriano's arm)

'08 Cubs:
-playing in a weak division of a weak league
-much more offensive firepower than the '05 Sox

.

There are 4 teams in that division that are over .500. 1 (Cubs) is 28 over, 1 (Brewers) is 17 over, 1 (Cardinals) is 13 over and the Astros are 2 over.

It's the best division in Baseball this year.

sox1970
08-17-2008, 09:29 PM
There are 4 teams in that division that are over .500. 1 (Cubs) is 28 over, 1 (Brewers) is 17 over, 1 (Cardinals) is 13 over and the Astros are 2 over.

It's the best division in Baseball this year.

:o:

AL East...by far

It's Time
08-17-2008, 09:32 PM
:o:

AL East...by far

Not really. The Yankees are splendidly mediocre.

sox1970
08-17-2008, 09:35 PM
Not really. The Yankees are splendidly mediocre.

Ya know, there are four teams over .500 in the AL East too...and the AL is the superior league.

Look at the Orioles. Last place and they're only 3 under .500.

It's Time
08-17-2008, 09:37 PM
Ya know, there are four teams over .500 in the AL East too...and the AL is the superior league.

Look at the Orioles. Last place and they're only 3 under .500.

You're right. What I meant is that the NLC is not weak and it's ONE of the best divisions in Baseball this year.

Taliesinrk
08-17-2008, 09:38 PM
There are 4 teams in that division that are over .500. 1 (Cubs) is 28 over, 1 (Brewers) is 17 over, 1 (Cardinals) is 13 over and the Astros are 2 over.

It's the best division in Baseball this year.

False. Record wise maybe.. but talent wise, absolutely not. Put them in the AL east and there's no way any of those teams fares that well. It's pointless arguing about it now though - it'll show in the Series.

sox1970
08-17-2008, 09:39 PM
You're right. What I meant is that the NLC is not weak and it's ONE of the best divisions in Baseball this year.

You did originally say it's the best division in baseball. I felt I had to call you on it.

roylestillman
08-17-2008, 10:15 PM
They haven't found their Jenks (Woody appears to be their Hermanson)

Optipessimism
08-17-2008, 10:45 PM
There are 4 teams in that division that are over .500. 1 (Cubs) is 28 over, 1 (Brewers) is 17 over, 1 (Cardinals) is 13 over and the Astros are 2 over.

It's the best division in Baseball this year.
Put Detroit in the NL Central and watch them contend. Same with the Yankees, and maybe even the Rangers and crappy Jays.

The Cubs IMO are the only team in that league that contends with the Sox and Twins in the AL Central. The Brewers and Mets are the only other teams in that league that could actually hope to contend in the American League.

Every team in the AL is .500 or above in interleague play except for Cleveland (6-12) and Toronto (8-10). Seattle is .500, and every other team is at least 2 games above that. Meanwhile, every team in the NL is below .500 in interleague play except for the Mets (3 games over), Atlanta (1 game over) and Cincinatti (3 games over and 5-1 versus Cleveland). The NL is weak as hell, and the NL Central just happens to be the tallest midget of the three.

SoxNation05
08-17-2008, 10:57 PM
Until the Cub's win the ship they should never be mentioned in the same breath as the '05 Sox.

Cuck the Fubs
08-17-2008, 10:58 PM
2005 Chicago White Sox = wire to wire champions who completed a sweep in the World Series. Only other team in MLB history to do this, the 1927 Yankees.

2008 Chicago Cubs = Haven't won Jack **** yet.....let's talk about this after the 2008 World Series. Although I do love how every single Cub fan I know is not only putting the cart in front of the horse, but are slamming the 08' White Sox every chance they get.

SoxNation05
08-17-2008, 10:59 PM
They haven't found their Jenks (Woody appears to be their Hermanson)

Samardja?? Not buying that.

DickAllen72
08-17-2008, 11:04 PM
Well, here's how I look at it:

We won the World Series.
They haven't won anything yet.

And as Dump said, they play in the junior league.

The Cubs could..and probably will...win the division. SO what? They won it last year, didn't they?
So true, Mary, and this is the problem I have with most Cubs fans I encounter. They haven't won anything yet but since as early as May they have been going around talking smack about how great their Cubs are and how this is their year, etc. Some I know have even been dissing the Sox because the Cubs have a better record, even though it is in the inferior league.

My response has been,"Why don't you wait until you actually win something before you start talking?" This is why I will relish the Cubs folding like a tent once again.

Cuck the Fubs
08-17-2008, 11:14 PM
So true, Mary, and this is the problem I have with most Cubs fans I encounter. They haven't won anything yet but since as early as May they have been going around talking smack about how great their Cubs are and how this is their year, etc. Some I know have even been dissing the Sox because the Cubs have a better record, even though it is in the inferior league.

My response has been,"Why don't you wait until you actually win something before you start talking?" This is why I will relish the Cubs folding like a tent once again.

Your Cub fan friends know my Cub fan friends? :redneck

ChiSoxGirl
08-17-2008, 11:18 PM
Ohhhh here we go. I knew this inevitablly would be brought up. If the Cubs win 99 or more games, and then go 11-1 in the playoffs, throwing 4 straight complete games, I'll give them their due and go into hiding. Until then, lets not make any comparisons to the best baseball team we have had in Chicago in a generation.

You live in Florida... you already ARE in hiding. :wink: And may I just say consider yourself lucky!

soxpride724
08-17-2008, 11:20 PM
2005 Chicago White Sox = wire to wire champions who completed a sweep in the World Series. Only other team in MLB history to do this, the 1927 Yankees.

2008 Chicago Cubs = Haven't won Jack **** yet.....let's talk about this after the 2008 World Series. Although I do love how every single Cub fan I know is not only putting the cart in front of the horse, but are slamming the 08' White Sox every chance they get.


Agreed. And get back to me when the Cubs go 11-1 in the postseason and then maybe we can compare the two teams.

thomas35forever
08-18-2008, 01:25 AM
Agreed. And get back to me when the Cubs go 11-1 in the postseason and then maybe we can compare the two teams.
Four straight complete-game victories. Don't forget the four straight complete-game victories.

TDog
08-18-2008, 03:05 AM
If the Cubs were playing better, they might remind me of the 2000 White Sox, which finished with the best record in the American League. Three years ago, in September, the 2005 White Sox reminded people of the 1969 Cubs. If Cubs fans believe the 2008 Cubs remind them of the 2005 White Sox, they must be expecting a historic collapse because that's the way may Cubs fans remember the 2005 White Sox.

It's still only August. And the mid-August 1969 Cubs had a bigger divisional lead than the mid-August 2008 Cubs do.

Winning the World Series, even getting to the World Series isn't easy. Often anymore teams get to the World Series without even finishing first.

Enjoy the season while it lasts. Baseball season is supposed to be fun. For baseball fans, it's in the background almost ever day for six months. I spent this weekend in Oakland among fans who are having about as much fun as White Sox fans did last year.

Among a fanbase that considers 1969 a special season, as well as 2003, 2008 will qualify as great, regardless. The Cubs have a lot of work to do in October before the season holds the importance people are already give it.

If it hadn't been for the White Sox winning in 2005, combined with the whole centennial thing, people wouldn't think a Cubs World Series this year is a given.

JermaineDye05
08-18-2008, 03:27 AM
As much as I hate the cubs and love to see them fail. If they won the world series, I wouldn't be too upset as my mom has been a fan for so many years and she was with me the day the Sox won it all and was there cheering with me as Uribe threw out Palmeiro to clinch it all. I'll do the same for my mom if the Cubs are in that situation, only if they aren't facing our Sox.

cards press box
08-18-2008, 05:23 AM
To reiterate the point made by Dump and Mary: The NL is terrible. This may be the worst NL in the history of ever. The league is terrible.

Just look at the Cubs' interleague record - 6-9 - to see how they play against better teams.

Being the best team in the National League is like being the best team in the International League.

I agree that the NL is inferior to the AL and that has been demonstrated not only by interleague play but by the World Series in recent years.

As for the Cubs' chances of winning the NL pennant, consider this: Arizona has Brandon Webb and Dan Haren, New York has Johan Santana and Milwaukee has CC Sabathia and Ben Sheets. I realize that the Cubs have Zambrano and Harden (and Ryan Dempster is having a career year) but Arizona, New York and Milwaukee could be a tough match in a short series. It is hard to say that any of these teams is a lock for the NL flag. At this point, the Cubs are still a long way from the 2005 Sox' 99 wins and 11-1 record in the post-season.

Dick Allen
08-18-2008, 11:40 AM
I agree that the NL is inferior to the AL and that has been demonstrated not only by interleague play but by the World Series in recent years.

As for the Cubs' chances of winning the NL pennant, consider this: Arizona has Brandon Webb and Dan Haren, New York has Johan Santana and Milwaukee has CC Sabathia and Ben Sheets. I realize that the Cubs have Zambrano and Harden (and Ryan Dempster is having a career year) but Arizona, New York and Milwaukee could be a tough match in a short series. It is hard to say that any of these teams is a lock for the NL flag. At this point, the Cubs are still a long way from the 2005 Sox' 99 wins and 11-1 record in the post-season.Don't forget AZ also has Randy Johnson, who owns the Cubs. If the DBacks can get into the playoffs, we could see a repeat of last year.

thomas35forever
08-18-2008, 01:42 PM
Don't forget AZ also has Randy Johnson, who owns the Cubs. If the DBacks can get into the playoffs, we could see a repeat of last year.
And this is why my radio partner yesterday brought up on the show that he'd rather have the Dodgers win the NL West since the Cubs are likely to play the winner of that division in the first round. That whole pitching staff in Arizona makes him a little nervous. A Cubs-D'backs matchup would all come down to pitching. Of course, it could go either way. However, if the Diamondbacks win one game at Wrigley Field, which has been a difficult place for visiting teams, the Cubs could be in trouble in such a series.

Cangelosi CF
08-18-2008, 01:50 PM
if the Coob don't win the first game of the playoff series with Zambrano starting, they are in trouble.

RadioheadRocks
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Well, here's how I look at it:

We won the World Series.
They haven't won anything yet.

And as Dump said, they play in the junior league.

The Cubs could..and probably will...win the division. SO what? They won it last year, didn't they?



Amen!

Foulke You
08-18-2008, 05:00 PM
Put Detroit in the NL Central and watch them contend. Same with the Yankees, and maybe even the Rangers and crappy Jays.

The Cubs IMO are the only team in that league that contends with the Sox and Twins in the AL Central. The Brewers and Mets are the only other teams in that league that could actually hope to contend in the American League.

Every team in the AL is .500 or above in interleague play except for Cleveland (6-12) and Toronto (8-10). Seattle is .500, and every other team is at least 2 games above that. Meanwhile, every team in the NL is below .500 in interleague play except for the Mets (3 games over), Atlanta (1 game over) and Cincinatti (3 games over and 5-1 versus Cleveland). The NL is weak as hell, and the NL Central just happens to be the tallest midget of the three.
All great points to support the AL's vast superiority. Just look at the stats from interleague this year:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10882566

In addition to a 6W-9L record, the Cubs E.R.A. was over 5.00 vs. the AL this year. Also, lots of AL teams dominated the NL in interleague play this year including the Sox and Twins. The Sox went 12W-6L and belted out 30HRs vs. the NL. The Twins went 14W-4L. The Royals went 13W-5L vs. the NL despite playing 6 games against the "tough" Cardinals. The disparity between the two leagues has never been bigger. Look at CC Sabathia for example. Great pitcher in the AL who is having an off year (for him) and goes to the NL and suddenly becomes unbeatable. CC hasn't lost a single game in the NL yet and reels off complete games with ease. Is he suddenly better now or is he facing lineups that don't come close to what he had to face in the AL? I choose the latter.

areilly
08-18-2008, 05:02 PM
Not in a career, not in a whole season, but FOUR TOUCHDOWNS IN A SINGLE GAME!

Seriously, isn't it a little early for this kind of talk? Even the 2005 White Sox weren't THE 2005 White Sox until damn near the dawn of 2006.