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Rockabilly
08-13-2008, 01:00 PM
my team would look like this

C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Ryne Sandberg
SS A Rod
3B George Brett
DH Frank Thomas
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
LF Barry Bonds
SP Bob Gibson
Closer Mariano Rivera

hi im skot
08-13-2008, 01:06 PM
Brian Anderson does it all on my team.

spawn
08-13-2008, 01:13 PM
my team would look like this

C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Ryne Sandberg
SS A Rod
3B George Brett
DH Frank Thomas
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
LF Barry Bonds
SP Bob Gibson
Closer Mariano Rivera

C- Johnny Bench
1B- Lou Gehrig
2B- Jackie Robinson
SS- Alex Rodriguez
3B- Brooks Robinson
LF- Rickey Henderson
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Mickey Mantle
SP- Bob Gibson
Closer- Rivera
DH- The Big Hurt

WSox597
08-13-2008, 01:33 PM
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Bill Mazeroski
SS A Rod
3B Brooks Robinson
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
LF Stan Musial
SP Bob Gibson
SP Marichal
Closer Rivera

balke
08-13-2008, 01:39 PM
Talking about players in their prime?

C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Hornsby
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Alex Rodriguez
DH Babe Ruth
RF Ken Griffey Jr.
CF Willie Mays
LF Ty Cobb

PennStater98r
08-13-2008, 02:33 PM
my team would look like this

C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Ryne Sandberg
SS A Rod
3B George Brett
DH Frank Thomas
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
LF Barry Bonds
SP Bob Gibson
Closer Mariano Rivera


Seen this done a lot, but still fun to post your opinion!

C - Ivan Rodriguez (R)
1B - Lou Gehrig (L)
2B - Robeto Alomar (S)
SS - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3B - Mike Schmidt (R)
RF - Hank Aaron (R)
CF - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
LF - Ted Williams (L)
DH - Babe Ruth (L)

SP1 - Walter Johnson (R)
SP2 - Steve Carlton (L)
SP3 - Greg Maddux (R)
SP4 - Randy Johnson (L)
SP5 - Tom Seaver (R)

Long - Babe Ruth
Short (R) - Rollie Fingers
Short (L) - Billy Wagner
Setup - Mariano Rivera
Closer - Dennis Eckersley

Line-up

1 - Roberto Alomar (S)
2 - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3 - Ted Williams (L)
4 - Lou Gehrig (L)
5 - Hank Aaron (R)
6 - Babe Ruth (L)
7 - Mike Schmidt (R)
8 - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
9 - Ivan Rodriguez (R)

So, who's left off the list?

I could have put A-Rod in at SS, but Hornsby felt right batting out of the two hole - he just seemed like the right guy to fit with the rest of the team. I am sure that along those lines, you could argue - why didn't you put Cobb in Centerfield and bat him 1 or 2? Well, Griffey's D was so above the rest WITH the offensive numbers that he made sense to me.

The easiest choices on this list were Schmidt and Gehrig. I could not find anyone even close to them offensively (not to mention both had good D). Ruth had Aaron. Williams had Bonds. Ivan Rodriguez had Johnny Bench. Alomar had Joe Morgan (though I think Joe Morgan really only had about 3 or 4 years in which he was elite).

What do you guys think? What would you change?

Eddo144
08-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Seen this done a lot, but still fun to post your opinion!

C - Ivan Rodriguez (R)
1B - Lou Gehrig (L)
2B - Robeto Alomar (S)
SS - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3B - Mike Schmidt (R)
RF - Hank Aaron (R)
CF - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
LF - Ted Williams (L)
DH - Babe Ruth (L)

SP1 - Walter Johnson (R)
SP2 - Steve Carlton (L)
SP3 - Greg Maddux (R)
SP4 - Randy Johnson (L)
SP5 - Tom Seaver (R)

Long - Babe Ruth
Short (R) - Rollie Fingers
Short (L) - Billy Wagner
Setup - Mariano Rivera
Closer - Dennis Eckersley

Line-up

1 - Roberto Alomar (S)
2 - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3 - Ted Williams (L)
4 - Lou Gehrig (L)
5 - Hank Aaron (R)
6 - Babe Ruth (L)
7 - Mike Schmidt (R)
8 - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
9 - Ivan Rodriguez (R)

So, who's left off the list?

I could have put A-Rod in at SS, but Hornsby felt right batting out of the two hole - he just seemed like the right guy to fit with the rest of the team. I am sure that along those lines, you could argue - why didn't you put Cobb in Centerfield and bat him 1 or 2? Well, Griffey's D was so above the rest WITH the offensive numbers that he made sense to me.

The easiest choices on this list were Schmidt and Gehrig. I could not find anyone even close to them offensively (not to mention both had good D). Ruth had Aaron. Williams had Bonds. Ivan Rodriguez had Johnny Bench. Alomar had Joe Morgan (though I think Joe Morgan really only had about 3 or 4 years in which he was elite).

What do you guys think? What would you change?
Not bad, but Hornsby played over 1500 games at 2B, and less than 400 at SS, so that kind of blows up your team.

C: Johnny Bench (Ivan Rodriguez is close, but keep in mind he put up his hitting numbers in a much more offensively-oriented era).
1B: Lou Gehrig (no contest, Jimmie Foxx would be second)
2B: Rogers Hornsby (another easy one, probably take Joe Morgan second)
3B: Alex Rodriguez* (Mike Schmidt second, Brooks Robinson third)
SS: Honus Wagner* (Cal Ripken, Jr. second)
LF: Ted Williams (Barry Bonds second, this is close)
CF: Willie Mays (Ken Griffey, Jr. second, Mickey Mantle third, Joe DiMaggio nowhere near this team)
RF: Babe Ruth** (Hank Aaron second, another close one)
DH: Stan Musial** (Frank Thomas second)

SP: Pedro Martinez
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Steve Carlton
SP: Greg Maddux

Bullpen: Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Lefty Grove, Bob Feller

* This choice came down to which two players I would rather have, A-Rod and Schmidt or A-Rod and Wagner. Wagner was pretty amazing, so I shifted A-Rod to 3B. I could probably be persuaded.

** This was tough. I absolutely have to have Musial on this team (just an all-around amazingly consistent player), but it sucks having to leave Aaron off.

PennStater98r
08-13-2008, 04:13 PM
Not bad, but Hornsby played over 1500 games at 2B, and less than 400 at SS, so that kind of blows up your team.

C: Johnny Bench (Ivan Rodriguez is close, but keep in mind he put up his hitting numbers in a much more offensively-oriented era).
1B: Lou Gehrig (no contest, Jimmie Foxx would be second)
2B: Rogers Hornsby (another easy one, probably take Joe Morgan second)
3B: Alex Rodriguez* (Mike Schmidt second, Brooks Robinson third)
SS: Honus Wagner* (Cal Ripken, Jr. second)
LF: Ted Williams (Barry Bonds second, this is close)
CF: Willie Mays (Ken Griffey, Jr. second, Mickey Mantle third, Joe DiMaggio nowhere near this team)
RF: Babe Ruth** (Hank Aaron second, another close one)
DH: Stan Musial** (Frank Thomas second)

SP: Pedro Martinez
SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Steve Carlton
SP: Greg Maddux

Bullpen: Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Lefty Grove, Bob Feller

* This choice came down to which two players I would rather have, A-Rod and Schmidt or A-Rod and Wagner. Wagner was pretty amazing, so I shifted A-Rod to 3B. I could probably be persuaded.

** This was tough. I absolutely have to have Musial on this team (just an all-around amazingly consistent player), but it sucks having to leave Aaron off.

What does your line-up look like? Where in the world is Walter Johnson? :) You want no real bullpen guys in your bullpen.

I knew that Hornsby only played 400 or so games at SS, but that was enough for me to get him into the infield. If I were going to stick with someone that played many - many more games at SS, I'd probably go with A-Rod (as when I talked about Schmidt and Gehrig as being the easiest choices in my post - it was relative to their positions) and bat him in the 2 spot hoping we get an A-Rod from 1996 instead of 2006/2007.

Rockabilly
08-13-2008, 04:15 PM
What does your line-up look like? Where in the world is Walter Johnson? :) You want no real bullpen guys in your bullpen.

I knew that Hornsby only played 400 or so games at SS, but that was enough for me to get him into the infield. If I were going to stick with someone that played many - many more games at SS, I'd probably go with A-Rod (as when I talked about Schmidt and Gehrig as being the easiest choices in my post - it was relative to their positions) and bat him in the 2 spot hoping we get an A-Rod from 1996 instead of 2006/2007.


Schmidt was a great player but I don't think he was by far the best 3B.. Brett was a better player

asindc
08-13-2008, 04:21 PM
Seen this done a lot, but still fun to post your opinion!

C - Ivan Rodriguez (R)
1B - Lou Gehrig (L)
2B - Robeto Alomar (S)
SS - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3B - Mike Schmidt (R)
RF - Hank Aaron (R)
CF - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
LF - Ted Williams (L)
DH - Babe Ruth (L)

SP1 - Walter Johnson (R)
SP2 - Steve Carlton (L)
SP3 - Greg Maddux (R)
SP4 - Randy Johnson (L)
SP5 - Tom Seaver (R)

Long - Babe Ruth
Short (R) - Rollie Fingers
Short (L) - Billy Wagner
Setup - Mariano Rivera
Closer - Dennis Eckersley

Line-up

1 - Roberto Alomar (S)
2 - Rogers Hornsby (R)
3 - Ted Williams (L)
4 - Lou Gehrig (L)
5 - Hank Aaron (R)
6 - Babe Ruth (L)
7 - Mike Schmidt (R)
8 - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
9 - Ivan Rodriguez (R)

So, who's left off the list?

I could have put A-Rod in at SS, but Hornsby felt right batting out of the two hole - he just seemed like the right guy to fit with the rest of the team. I am sure that along those lines, you could argue - why didn't you put Cobb in Centerfield and bat him 1 or 2? Well, Griffey's D was so above the rest WITH the offensive numbers that he made sense to me.

The easiest choices on this list were Schmidt and Gehrig. I could not find anyone even close to them offensively (not to mention both had good D). Ruth had Aaron. Williams had Bonds. Ivan Rodriguez had Johnny Bench. Alomar had Joe Morgan (though I think Joe Morgan really only had about 3 or 4 years in which he was elite).

What do you guys think? What would you change?

If you are talking about players in their prime, I would put Sandy Koufax in there ahead of Randy Johnson. I'm surprised no one has mentioned him before now.

PennStater98r
08-13-2008, 04:40 PM
Schmidt was a great player but I don't think he was by far the best 3B.. Brett was a better player

Player 1: .267/.380/.512 10 Gold Gloves, 3 MVP 548 HR and 2234 Hits in 18 seasons
Player 2: .305/.369/.487 1 Gold Glove, 1 MVP and 317 HR and 3154 Hits in 21 Seasons

Which would you rather have? I'd rather have player 1.

PennStater98r
08-13-2008, 04:40 PM
If you are talking about players in their prime, I would put Sandy Koufax in there ahead of Randy Johnson. I'm surprised no one has mentioned him before now.

Koufax is a good call - I should have thought of him.

Eddo144
08-13-2008, 07:19 PM
What does your line-up look like? Where in the world is Walter Johnson? :) You want no real bullpen guys in your bullpen.

I knew that Hornsby only played 400 or so games at SS, but that was enough for me to get him into the infield. If I were going to stick with someone that played many - many more games at SS, I'd probably go with A-Rod (as when I talked about Schmidt and Gehrig as being the easiest choices in my post - it was relative to their positions) and bat him in the 2 spot hoping we get an A-Rod from 1996 instead of 2006/2007.
Lineup (career BA/OBP/SLG/OPS+):
Hornsby 2B (358/434/577/175)
Musial LF (331/417/559/159)
Ruth RF (342/474/690/207)
Gehrig 1B (340/447/632/179)
Williams DH (344/482/634/191)
Rodriguez 3B (306/389/579/148)
Mays CF (302/384/557/156)
Bench C (267/342/476/126)
Wagner SS (327/391/466/150)

And I do have Walter Johnson, 3rd in the rotation. You must have missed him, no worries. :tongue:

For the bullpen, I just took the best remaining pitchers. As players like Smoltz and Eckersley have shown, it's not a big challenge for a good starter (or even a failed one) to become an effective closer.

Eddo144
08-13-2008, 07:36 PM
If you are talking about players in their prime, I would put Sandy Koufax in there ahead of Randy Johnson. I'm surprised no one has mentioned him before now.
Randy Johnson had arguably the 2nd most dominant stretch of all time, after Pedro, when you factor in the era he played in.

Best five year stretch for Martinez, Johnson, and Koufax:
(Year - ERA+ - WHIP)
Pedro Martinez
1997 - 219 - .932
1998 - 163 - 1.091
1999 - 243 - .923
2000 - 291 - .737 (two words: holy crap)
2001 - 189 - .934

Randy Johnson
1998 - 135 - 1.183
1999 - 186 - 1.020
2000 - 181 - 1.118
2001 - 188 - 1.009
2002 - 197 - 1.031

Sandy Koufax
1962 - 141 - 1.035
1963 - 159 - .875
1964 - 187 - .928
1965 - 160 - .855
1966 - 190 - .985

Pedro's pretty clearly the best of the three. Koufax has the edge on Johnson in WHIP, but Johson had a better ERA relative to the era he played in, so you could go with either one.

Moral of the story: both Koufax and Johnson deserve to be on the team in some capacity, while Pedro should be a front-of-the-rotation starter.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-13-2008, 07:41 PM
First Base: Lou Gehring but Jimmie Foxx, or Eddie Murray are just as good.
Second Base: Nellie Fox. Why not? Joe Morgan?
Shortstop: Honus Wagner, and no one is even close.
Third Base: Eddie Mathews, before he was hurt, was as good as anyone
Center Field: Tris Speaker no one ever played defense like him.
Left Field Ty Cobb because this team has too many nice guys
Right Field: Babe Ruth, he's gotta be on the team.
Cather: Josh Gibson At least one Negro Leaguer is on my team
DH: Hank Aaron

Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Pete Alexander
Greg Maddux

From the pen,
Hoyt Wilhelm

the1tab
08-14-2008, 09:19 AM
I noticed a couple omissions from the previous lists...

RF - Roberto Clemente - Josh Hamilton's talent w/ character his whole life
OF - Joe Dimaggio & Ted Williams??? Anyone??
SP - Tom Seaver, Fergusen Jenkins & Don Drysdale - all workhorses with 20 win longevity (plus Jenkins gets us a Canadian on the list)
SS - Derek Jeter - ARod's biggest numbers have come at third because the Yankees wouldn't move Jeter. There's something to be said for that.

I think Clemente is overlooked sometimes because of both his premature death and complete career in Pittsburgh. If you ever see film of him, or listen to his peers talk of him, there's no question that he & Mantle were the most talented & revered outfielders that the game had seen before 1980.

the1tab
08-14-2008, 09:20 AM
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Bill Mazeroski
SS A Rod
3B Brooks Robinson
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
LF Stan Musial
SP Bob Gibson
SP Marichal
Closer Rivera

Stan the Man was a firstbaseman, no?

TornLabrum
08-14-2008, 09:54 AM
Stan the Man was a firstbaseman, no?

Only the last part of his career.

What amazes me is that there is no room for Ty Cobb on anybody's roster.

asindc
08-14-2008, 10:09 AM
I noticed a couple omissions from the previous lists...

RF - Roberto Clemente - Josh Hamilton's talent w/ character his whole life
OF - Joe Dimaggio & Ted Williams??? Anyone??
SP - Tom Seaver, Fergusen Jenkins & Don Drysdale - all workhorses with 20 win longevity (plus Jenkins gets us a Canadian on the list)
SS - Derek Jeter - ARod's biggest numbers have come at third because the Yankees wouldn't move Jeter. There's something to be said for that.

I think Clemente is overlooked sometimes because of both his premature death and complete career in Pittsburgh. If you ever see film of him, or listen to his peers talk of him, there's no question that he & Mantle were the most talented & revered outfielders that the game had seen before 1980.


I agree 100% about Clemente. He is Reason 1 why I don't pay a whole lot of attention to numbers in assessing a player. Some guys who played during his era had better numbers, but watching him play convinced me that he was always the best player on the field that day.

asindc
08-14-2008, 10:10 AM
Only the last part of his career.

What amazes me is that there is no room for Ty Cobb on anybody's roster.

Ty Cobb would not be part of any organization that I was in charge of.

balke
08-14-2008, 10:19 AM
Only the last part of his career.

What amazes me is that there is no room for Ty Cobb on anybody's roster.

He's on my roster :(:

Eddo144
08-14-2008, 10:25 AM
I noticed a couple omissions from the previous lists...

RF - Roberto Clemente - Josh Hamilton's talent w/ character his whole life
Clemente was a wonderful humanitarian, but he also did some things (like be publicly upset he didn't win the MVP in 1960 (his teammate, Dick Groat, did)) that many fans today would despise him for. He also had a near-identical career to Al Kaline (one of the most underrated players of all time). That said, I'd definitely consider him as a backup outfielder.

OF - Joe Dimaggio & Ted Williams??? Anyone??
I specifically said Dimaggio wouldn't get anywhere near my team. His best skill was being a Yankee. He somehow won the MVP in 1941 (for his 56-game hit streak), the year Ted Williams hit .406, set the single-season OBP record, and won the triple crown. Dimaggio is the single most overrated player in baseball history.

SP - Tom Seaver, Fergusen Jenkins & Don Drysdale - all workhorses with 20 win longevity (plus Jenkins gets us a Canadian on the list)
Seaver was probably an oversight on my part, he was dominant. Jenkins and Drysdale, while true Hall-of-Famers, aren't necessarily two of the twelve best pitchers ever.

SS - Derek Jeter - ARod's biggest numbers have come at third because the Yankees wouldn't move Jeter. There's something to be said for that.
ARod moved to third because he was the better teammate, and the great leader Jeter wouldn't relinquish SS, even though his skillset (less range, better arm) was a better fit for third than ARod's. People forget that ARod was the better defensive SS when he got traded to New York.

I think Clemente is overlooked sometimes because of both his premature death and complete career in Pittsburgh. If you ever see film of him, or listen to his peers talk of him, there's no question that he & Mantle were the most talented & revered outfielders that the game had seen before 1980.
I think you have this backwards; much like Hendrix, Morrison, and Dean, Clemente's is only helped by the fact he died early. I don't mean to sound crass, but he never had to get old and cranky, like Willie Mays (who's nearly deaf, I just read), or have it come out he was a drunk, like Mantle. Like it or not, when a great talent dies young, most everyone with an audience will go out of their way to never criticize them, no matter how deserved.

Here are two blog entries by Joe Posnanski regarding Clemente vs. Al Kaline (one is simply posting Bill James's opinions).

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/01/wb-clemente-vs-kaline/
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/03/wb-clemente-vs-kaline-bill-james-version/

It's not overly Sabermetric, and it really does show that Kaline was nearly Clemente's equal while they played, with the only real difference being that Clemente played the National League, which was tougher at the time.

I don't mean to rag on Clemente, but putting him in RF ahead of Ruth and Aaron, and calling him one of the two best OF (along with Mantle) before 1980 smacks of being contrarian for contrary's sake.

TornLabrum
08-14-2008, 11:45 AM
Ty Cobb would not be part of any organization that I was in charge of.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was the all-moral all-time team.

CashMan
08-14-2008, 12:04 PM
my team would look like this


LF Barry Bonds



I lost ALL respect for you.

Rockabilly
08-14-2008, 12:16 PM
I lost ALL respect for you.


You can think about what you want ,but Bonds is one of the best players of all time.. his lifetime stats are amazing

298 Lifetime Avg
762 Hr's
1996 Rbi's
514 SB's
444 OBP

plus he was one of the best defensive players in his prime... Sure the guy is a jerk but you can't denied his stats

voodoochile
08-14-2008, 12:20 PM
You can think about what you want ,but Bonds is one of the best players of all time.. his lifetime stats are amazing

298 Lifetime Avg
762 Hr's
1996 Rbi's
514 SB's
444 OBP

plus he was one of the best defensive players in his prime... Sure the guy is a jerk but you can't denied his stats

Right, but it's been confirmed that those numbers are artificially inflated due to steroid and HGH usage.

Rockabilly
08-14-2008, 12:23 PM
Right, but it's been confirmed that those numbers are artificially inflated due to steroid and HGH usage.


Before his steroid use his stats were up there with the greats of the past..

hellview
08-14-2008, 12:39 PM
All Switch Hitters Team (I love switch hitters)

C-Ted Simmons (Almost went with Posada)
1B-Eddie Murray
2B-Roberto Alomar
SS-George Davis
3B-Chipper Jones
LF-Pete Rose
CF-Mickey Mantle
RF- Tim Raines
DH-Ken Singleton

CashMan
08-14-2008, 02:32 PM
Before his steroid use his stats were up there with the greats of the past..

Do you know when he started using?

voodoochile
08-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Before his steroid use his stats were up there with the greats of the past..

Prove it... How do you know he hasn't been roiding all along? They've been around as long as he has been playing and certainly since he's been in SF which has always been on the cutting edge of pharmaceutical enhancements.

Besides all that, the fact that he decided to cheat when he was already a great player makes it all the worse. He is forever tainted and forever a cheat first and a great baseball player second. With all the other great players to choose from who played LF, putting Bonds there is a joke.

ode to veeck
08-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Prove it... How do you know he hasn't been roiding all along? They've been around as long as he has been playing and certainly since he's been in SF which has always been on the cutting edge of pharmaceutical enhancements.

Besides all that, the fact that he decided to cheat when he was already a great player makes it all the worse. He is forever tainted and forever a cheat first and a great baseball player second. With all the other great players to choose from who played LF, putting Bonds there is a joke.

can we start an all-time cheaters lineup thread in what's the score?

Rockabilly
08-14-2008, 04:49 PM
I lost ALL respect for you.


I guess you also don't have any respect for Seaver, Gwynn, Rose, Brett and Schmidt because they were on the radio here in San Fran and all said when asked if Bonds would be on their all time team they all said yes....

Plus two more of greatest players of all time Willie Mays & Ripken JR has said the exact same thing in past interviews

Wickel
08-14-2008, 05:05 PM
C-Johnny Bench
1st base-Moose Skowron
2nd base-Joe Morgan
3rd base-Brooks Robinson
SS-Ozzie Smith; honorable mention-Luis Aparicio
Outfield-Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams
P-Sandy Koufax
Closer-Bobby Thigpen
DH-The Big Hurt

PennStater98r
08-14-2008, 06:07 PM
I guess you also don't have any respect for Seaver, Gwynn, Rose, Brett and Schmidt because they were on the radio here in San Fran and all said when asked if Bonds would be on their all time team they all said yes....

Plus two more of greatest players of all time Willie Mays & Ripken JR has said the exact same thing in past interviews

It all doesn't matter - Ted Williams STILL was a better ball player against Bonds any day of the week and on days off too. :wink:

Bonds would make my Largest Heads on a Baseball Player Team.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-14-2008, 07:55 PM
Only the last part of his career.

What amazes me is that there is no room for Ty Cobb on anybody's roster.
Cobb is on my team.

CashMan
08-14-2008, 09:48 PM
I guess you also don't have any respect for Seaver, Gwynn, Rose, Brett and Schmidt because they were on the radio here in San Fran and all said when asked if Bonds would be on their all time team they all said yes....

Plus two more of greatest players of all time Willie Mays & Ripken JR has said the exact same thing in past interviews

Pete Rose, though should be in the HOF, has lied for god know how long. But, if any of them said that, I would lose respect. I can't see Ripken saying that.

asindc
08-14-2008, 10:26 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was the all-moral all-time team.

Morality or not, if the ******* can't get along with his teammates and coaches, why bother having him around?

SOXfnNlansing
08-14-2008, 10:36 PM
LF HENDERSON .279 297 1115/ SB:1406/OBP.401/BB:2190/BH:3055
3B ROSE .303 160 1314/R:2165/OBP.375/BH:4256
CF DIMAGGIO .325 361 1537/OBP.398/SGP:.579
P RUTH .342 714 2213/OBP.469/SLG.690
1B THOMAS .302 521 1703/OBP:.420/SLG.557
RF BELLE .295 381 1239/OBP.369/SLG.564
C FISK .269 376 1330/OBP.341/SLG:.457
2B ALOMAR .300 210 1134/SB:474/OBP.371/SLG.443
SS JETER .315 202 990/SB:271/OBP.386/SLG.459



P RUTH 94-46 2.28 17SO/1221.IP/10HRA/441BB/448K
P JOHNSON 294-158 3.26 37SO/3986.2IP/4737K
P MADDUX 353-222 3.14 35SO/4960.2IP/109 CG/995BB/3349K
P KOUFAX 165-87 2.76 40SO/2324.1IP/137CG/2396K
P GIBSON 251-174 2.91 56SO/3884.1 IP/255CG/3117K/3279HA

This team goes 120-34 EASILY (125-37 with today's schedule)

TornLabrum
08-14-2008, 11:53 PM
Morality or not, if the ******* can't get along with his teammates and coaches, why bother having him around?

Perhaps because this isn't a real team. It's an imaginary team. There are no other real players and coaches. Cobb is dead. He won't get along or not get along with anybody.

Nellie_Fox
08-15-2008, 02:05 AM
I guess you also don't have any respect for Seaver, Gwynn, Rose, Brett and Schmidt because they were on the radio here in San Fran and all said when asked if Bonds would be on their all time team they all said yes....

Plus two more of greatest players of all time Willie Mays & Ripken JR has said the exact same thing in past interviewsWhat the hell do you expect them to say on San Francisco radio? Why should they let themselves get sucked into a controversy that has nothing to do with them?

asindc
08-15-2008, 02:13 AM
Perhaps because this isn't a real team. It's an imaginary team. There are no other real players and coaches. Cobb is dead. He won't get along or not get along with anybody.

Whatever... I had no problem with you imagining him on your team. Don't know why you would object to me imagining him being banned from baseball.

Rockabilly
08-15-2008, 02:17 AM
What the hell do you expect them to say on San Francisco radio? Why should they let themselves get sucked into a controversy that has nothing to do with them?


than explain why Rollie Fingers, Johnny Bench and Harold Reyonlds also had Barry Bonds on the all-time team .. When they were on the best dam sports show

Nellie_Fox
08-15-2008, 03:00 AM
than explain why Rollie Fingers, Johnny Bench and Harold Reyonlds also had Barry Bonds on the all-time team .. When they were on the best dam sports showPerhaps, again, because they don't want to get sucked into a controversy that doesn't have anything to do with them. And I'm aware that there are former MLB players who defend Bonds. Rob Dibble is a HUGE Bonds apologist on XM Homeplate.

Bonds is still a juicing, cheating scum.

Mohoney
08-15-2008, 03:34 AM
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Jackie Robinson
SS: Alex Rodriguez
3B: George Brett
LF: Pre-steroids Barry Bonds
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Hank Aaron
DH: Babe Ruth
C: Johnny Bench

P: Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton

Mohoney
08-15-2008, 03:40 AM
I think Clemente is overlooked sometimes because of both his premature death and complete career in Pittsburgh. If you ever see film of him, or listen to his peers talk of him, there's no question that he & Mantle were the most talented & revered outfielders that the game had seen before 1980.

Hello? Willie Mays?

eastchicagosoxfan
08-15-2008, 06:04 AM
Morality or not, if the ******* can't get along with his teammates and coaches, why bother having him around?
Early in his career Cobb was very difficult. He mellowed with age. When he managed the Tigers his teams led the league in hitting. He was a good hitting coach who taught the art to his players.

WSox597
08-15-2008, 07:08 AM
I noticed a couple omissions from the previous lists...

RF - Roberto Clemente - Josh Hamilton's talent w/ character his whole life
OF - Joe Dimaggio & Ted Williams??? Anyone??
SP - Tom Seaver, Fergusen Jenkins & Don Drysdale - all workhorses with 20 win longevity (plus Jenkins gets us a Canadian on the list)
SS - Derek Jeter - ARod's biggest numbers have come at third because the Yankees wouldn't move Jeter. There's something to be said for that.

I think Clemente is overlooked sometimes because of both his premature death and complete career in Pittsburgh. If you ever see film of him, or listen to his peers talk of him, there's no question that he & Mantle were the most talented & revered outfielders that the game had seen before 1980.

I must have had a brain cramp. Clemente has always been one of my favorites. I can't believe I left him off of the list.

Jenkins lost almost as many games as he won. He had more than a few 23-20 type seasons. (Wilbur Wood had one or two of those also.)

Somebody once said Jeter isn't even the best SS on his team.

Save McCuddy's
08-15-2008, 10:16 AM
C Piazza
1B Gehrig
2B Hornsby
SS Gayrod
3B Schmidty
LF Musial
CF Speaker
RF Ruth
DH Williams

Walter Johnson
R. Johnson
Koufax
J.R.Richard
Smoltz SP/RP

spawn
08-15-2008, 10:21 AM
What amazes me is that there is no room for Ty Cobb on anybody's roster.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was the all-moral all-time team.
Although I didn't make my picks based on morality, I couldn't in good conscience put him in my list. When choosing, I thought about it, but morality did intervene. I just couldn't put a known out and out racist on it, which is why Cap Anson isn't on my squad either.

Zisk77
08-15-2008, 02:11 PM
Clemente was a wonderful humanitarian, but he also did some things (like be publicly upset he didn't win the MVP in 1960 (his teammate, Dick Groat, did)) that many fans today would despise him for. He also had a near-identical career to Al Kaline (one of the most underrated players of all time). That said, I'd definitely consider him as a backup outfielder.


I specifically said Dimaggio wouldn't get anywhere near my team. His best skill was being a Yankee. He somehow won the MVP in 1941 (for his 56-game hit streak), the year Ted Williams hit .406, set the single-season OBP record, and won the triple crown. Dimaggio is the single most overrated player in baseball history.


Seaver was probably an oversight on my part, he was dominant. Jenkins and Drysdale, while true Hall-of-Famers, aren't necessarily two of the twelve best pitchers ever.


ARod moved to third because he was the better teammate, and the great leader Jeter wouldn't relinquish SS, even though his skillset (less range, better arm) was a better fit for third than ARod's. People forget that ARod was the better defensive SS when he got traded to New York.


I think you have this backwards; much like Hendrix, Morrison, and Dean, Clemente's is only helped by the fact he died early. I don't mean to sound crass, but he never had to get old and cranky, like Willie Mays (who's nearly deaf, I just read), or have it come out he was a drunk, like Mantle. Like it or not, when a great talent dies young, most everyone with an audience will go out of their way to never criticize them, no matter how deserved.

Here are two blog entries by Joe Posnanski regarding Clemente vs. Al Kaline (one is simply posting Bill James's opinions).

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/01/wb-clemente-vs-kaline/
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/03/wb-clemente-vs-kaline-bill-james-version/

It's not overly Sabermetric, and it really does show that Kaline was nearly Clemente's equal while they played, with the only real difference being that Clemente played the National League, which was tougher at the time.

I don't mean to rag on Clemente, but putting him in RF ahead of Ruth and Aaron, and calling him one of the two best OF (along with Mantle) before 1980 smacks of being contrarian for contrary's sake.


Clemente wasn't upset that he didn't win the MVP and Groat did. He was upset that he was voted 5th!

While williams should have won the 41' MVP (5th place vote from the boston writer - name 4 players who had a better year than .406) Dimaggio was not overated. The man had more career homeruns than strikeouts!

I would just have Bugs Bunny play all positions.:D:

TornLabrum
08-15-2008, 02:22 PM
Although I didn't make my picks based on morality, I couldn't in good conscience put him in my list. When choosing, I thought about it, but morality did intervene. I just couldn't put a known out and out racist on it, which is why Cap Anson isn't on my squad either.

I personally think Ty Cobb was a lousy excuse for a human being. On the other hand, he was one of the greatest players of all time if not the greatest. One reason you won't see me name an all-time team here is simply that there are too many good choices. If I choose Ty Cobb for CF, I'm leaving out Willie Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, and Speaker. If I choose Ruth for RF, I'm leaving out Clemente. If I choose Gehrig for 1B, I'm leaving out Thomas. I don't want to make those decisions.

But if I'm going to choose an all-time team, it's going to be based on what they did on the field, who is the best (strictly subjective) at every position, with nothing but their baseball credentials.

That being the case, it would be one heck of a tossup for me between Ted Williams and Joe Jackson in LF. Again, I don't want to make that decision.

Now if it were the best team of players I'd ever seen....

Eddo144
08-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Clemente wasn't upset that he didn't win the MVP and Groat did. He was upset that he was voted 5th!

While williams should have won the 41' MVP (5th place vote from the boston writer - name 4 players who had a better year than .406) Dimaggio was not overated. The man had more career homeruns than strikeouts!

I would just have Bugs Bunny play all positions.:D:
That is an amazing fact about Dimaggio, but we're not putting together the "hardest team to strikeout", but rather the best team of all time.

Mays, Mantle, Griffey, Cobb, and Speaker are all better centerfielders than Dimaggio. Not saying that Dimaggio is not a great player or not deserving of the Hall of Fame, but had he played for the Braves or Indians, he would never be considered for this team.

And you're dead on about Bugs; I'd take a team of nine of him any day of the week. :D:

DoItForDanPasqua
08-15-2008, 02:44 PM
C: Josh Gibson
1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Rogers Hornsby
3B: Alex Rodriguez
SS: Honus Wagner
OF: Babe Ruth
OF: Ted Williams
OF: Willie Mays

SP: Christie Mathewson
SP: Greg Maddux
SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Bob Gibson

RP: Dennis Eckersley

spawn
08-15-2008, 03:03 PM
I personally think Ty Cobb was a lousy excuse for a human being. On the other hand, he was one of the greatest players of all time if not the greatest.
Of that, there is no doubt.

Zisk77
08-15-2008, 04:14 PM
That is an amazing fact about Dimaggio, but we're not putting together the "hardest team to strikeout", but rather the best team of all time.

Mays, Mantle, Griffey, Cobb, and Speaker are all better centerfielders than Dimaggio. Not saying that Dimaggio is not a great player or not deserving of the Hall of Fame, but had he played for the Braves or Indians, he would never be considered for this team.

And you're dead on about Bugs; I'd take a team of nine of him any day of the week. :D:

I was just commenting on Dimaggio being overated...not arguing he west a better player then some of the previous mentioned.



Also, carefull on stats on the Kaline Clemente argument. Someone showed earlier that Baines' HoF credentials matched up favorably with both Kaline and Tony Perez.

Eddo144
08-15-2008, 06:30 PM
I was just commenting on Dimaggio being overated...not arguing he west a better player then some of the previous mentioned.



Also, carefull on stats on the Kaline Clemente argument. Someone showed earlier that Baines' HoF credentials matched up favorably with both Kaline and Tony Perez.
OK, gotcha on the Dimaggio thing. I still think he's overrated, but at least you're not arguing he was one of the top three CF. :tongue:

As for the HoF credentials comment - the Kaline vs. Clemente comparison holds water because (a) their career progression was uncanny, (b) they played the same postion (granted, so did Harold), (c) they both won battle titles, gold gloves, World Series, etc., and (d) they played in the exact same era.

Not having seen the Baines argument you reference, I would wager that it probably looked at career numbers only, and since Baines played for a long time, he has some good ones.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-15-2008, 09:45 PM
Although I didn't make my picks based on morality, I couldn't in good conscience put him in my list. When choosing, I thought about it, but morality did intervene. I just couldn't put a known out and out racist on it, which is why Cap Anson isn't on my squad either.

I personally think Ty Cobb was a lousy excuse for a human being. On the other hand, he was one of the greatest players of all time if not the greatest. One reason you won't see me name an all-time team here is simply that there are too many good choices. If I choose Ty Cobb for CF, I'm leaving out Willie Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, and Speaker. If I choose Ruth for RF, I'm leaving out Clemente. If I choose Gehrig for 1B, I'm leaving out Thomas. I don't want to make those decisions.

But if I'm going to choose an all-time team, it's going to be based on what they did on the field, who is the best (strictly subjective) at every position, with nothing but their baseball credentials.

That being the case, it would be one heck of a tossup for me between Ted Williams and Joe Jackson in LF. Again, I don't want to make that decision.

Now if it were the best team of players I'd ever seen....

I've posted this link before on Cobb, but it bears repeating. Cobb was a complex guy. He was a mean human being as a young man. We could speculate on the reasons, but the results are clear. As Cobb aged, he became a better person.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80626