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View Full Version : If Uribe is at 3rd, why not Anderson at CF?


chaerulez
08-13-2008, 01:57 AM
Juan Uribe so far in this season has a line of .230/.286/.356 in 191 ABs with a OPS+ of 68. He has the worst OPS+ of any White Sox with a 100 or more ABs this season. Brian Anderson this season has a line of .238/.268/.448 in 143 ABs and has a OPS+ of 84. We are using Uribe as our everyday 3B because primarily we have no other choice because Fields can't hit at all to offset his poor fielding ability.

The Bill James defensive spectrum lists center field as a slighty harder position to fill than third base. Excluding the pitcher and catcher, only the second basemen and shortstop are more important defense wise. We can live with Uribe because of the great defense he has shown. So why can't we live wiht Anderson's below average hitting in exchange for his superior center field skills. He is by far the best defensive center fielder on our roster. The team that is always a thorn in our side, the Twins constantly has played sub par offense players (a lot had to do with they had no choice) but all these players were at least good with the glove. Yeah I understand this really gives no place for Konerko (platoon at DH?) or Griffey to play except as super subs, but I really think we should try a more defensive approach. None of our starters are flamethrowers that have K/9 rates of 7.5+. They rely on getting outs via balls put in play. With that you need really good defense behind them to maximize their effectiveness. I know a lot of people won't agree with this idea, but I think it's at least something to consider.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 02:05 AM
I agree, but hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough?

WhiteSoxBlog
08-13-2008, 02:14 AM
I agree, but hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough?


Agreed. See [This Thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=102805&highlight=brian+anderson+hitting)]. It's a lost cause, unless you can get Ozzie & KW to agree with you.:dunno:

daveeym
08-13-2008, 08:41 AM
Juan Uribe so far in this season has a line of .230/.286/.356 in 191 ABs with a OPS+ of 68. He has the worst OPS+ of any White Sox with a 100 or more ABs this season. Brian Anderson this season has a line of .238/.268/.448 in 143 ABs and has a OPS+ of 84. We are using Uribe as our everyday 3B because primarily we have no other choice because Fields can't hit at all to offset his poor fielding ability.

The Bill James defensive spectrum lists center field as a slighty harder position to fill than third base. Excluding the pitcher and catcher, only the second basemen and shortstop are more important defense wise. We can live with Uribe because of the great defense he has shown. So why can't we live wiht Anderson's below average hitting in exchange for his superior center field skills. He is by far the best defensive center fielder on our roster. The team that is always a thorn in our side, the Twins constantly has played sub par offense players (a lot had to do with they had no choice) but all these players were at least good with the glove. Yeah I understand this really gives no place for Konerko (platoon at DH?) or Griffey to play except as super subs, but I really think we should try a more defensive approach. None of our starters are flamethrowers that have K/9 rates of 7.5+. They rely on getting outs via balls put in play. With that you need really good defense behind them to maximize their effectiveness. I know a lot of people won't agree with this idea, but I think it's at least something to consider.Just curious. What's swish, konerko and Griff's ops+?

voodoochile
08-13-2008, 09:43 AM
And they're off... :tongue:

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 09:52 AM
I completely agree. Combined with Swisher moving to 1st Base...we would be giving our pitchers a huge boost. It comes down to BA vs. Konerko in the line up. I'll take the boost on defense at TWO positions over any incremental offense Konerko can deliver over BA.

But Ozzie seems to be completely blind to this...BA has 13 ABs since the All Star break (hitting .385!)...lowest on the team by far....even Wise has twice as many.

Jaffar
08-13-2008, 10:00 AM
Juan Uribe so far in this season has a line of .230/.286/.356 in 191 ABs with a OPS+ of 68. He has the worst OPS+ of any White Sox with a 100 or more ABs this season. Brian Anderson this season has a line of .238/.268/.448 in 143 ABs and has a OPS+ of 84.

.243/.273/.458 in 144 ABs

I agree with basically everything posted in this thread so far though.

But Ozzie seems to be completely blind to this...BA has 13 ABs since the All Star break (hitting .385!)...lowest on the team by far....even Wise has twice as many.

and 1 less hit .182/.217/.273 in 22 ABs

palehozenychicty
08-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Juan Uribe so far in this season has a line of .230/.286/.356 in 191 ABs with a OPS+ of 68. He has the worst OPS+ of any White Sox with a 100 or more ABs this season. Brian Anderson this season has a line of .238/.268/.448 in 143 ABs and has a OPS+ of 84. We are using Uribe as our everyday 3B because primarily we have no other choice because Fields can't hit at all to offset his poor fielding ability.

The Bill James defensive spectrum lists center field as a slighty harder position to fill than third base. Excluding the pitcher and catcher, only the second basemen and shortstop are more important defense wise. We can live with Uribe because of the great defense he has shown. So why can't we live wiht Anderson's below average hitting in exchange for his superior center field skills. He is by far the best defensive center fielder on our roster. The team that is always a thorn in our side, the Twins constantly has played sub par offense players (a lot had to do with they had no choice) but all these players were at least good with the glove. Yeah I understand this really gives no place for Konerko (platoon at DH?) or Griffey to play except as super subs, but I really think we should try a more defensive approach. None of our starters are flamethrowers that have K/9 rates of 7.5+. They rely on getting outs via balls put in play. With that you need really good defense behind them to maximize their effectiveness. I know a lot of people won't agree with this idea, but I think it's at least something to consider.


This idea has been around since the days of Parthenon. The thing as others mention is how Oz and KW talk about the Twins and their fundamental play, yet we constantly go the opposite way, valuing power above everything else. Uribe's an awful hitter, and for all his defensive wizardry, he boots routine plays a lot. He also has moments of power, so he gets a chance. Anderson's strength is defense, and he has shown a knack for hitting gap doubles when making contact. I think if he had a better eye, he'd play a lot more. I just don't understand why the team hasn't gotten rid of him if they have so much doubt. I'm sure a team that has more patience with young players could use him. If they don't trade him away this offseason, I'd be shocked, because it's clear that they don't buy him as their future centerfielder.

russ99
08-13-2008, 10:07 AM
This idea has been around since the days of Parthenon. The thing as others mention is how Oz and KW talk about the Twins and their fundamental play, yet we constantly go the opposite way, valuing power above everything else. Uribe's an awful hitter, and for all his defensive wizardry, he boots routine plays a lot. He also has moments of power, so he gets a chance. Anderson's strength is defense, and he has shown a knack for hitting gap doubles when making contact. I think if he had a better eye, he'd play a lot more. I just don't understand why the team hasn't gotten rid of him if they have so much doubt. I'm sure a team that has more patience with young players could use him. If they don't trade him away this offseason, I'd be shocked, because it's clear that they don't buy him as their future centerfielder.

To rebut, I've seen vastly more plate patience from Uribe this year, especially since he took over at 3B.

While Brian has had some nice impact hits, he's had a lot less quality at-bats. I still think he's most valuable in his current role, defensive outfielder/replacement and key hitter (and runner) off the bench.

doublem23
08-13-2008, 10:20 AM
To rebut, I've seen vastly more plate patience from Uribe this year, especially since he took over at 3B.

While Brian has had some nice impact hits, he's had a lot less quality at-bats. I still think he's most valuable in his current role, defensive outfielder/replacement and key hitter (and runner) off the bench.

:busted: Truth has no place within this thread! :busted:

palehozenychicty
08-13-2008, 10:33 AM
To rebut, I've seen vastly more plate patience from Uribe this year, especially since he took over at 3B.

While Brian has had some nice impact hits, he's had a lot less quality at-bats. I still think he's most valuable in his current role, defensive outfielder/replacement and key hitter (and runner) off the bench.


The bottom line is that neither of them are good enough to start for this team, but people seem to think that both of them are capable. Yeah, he may have looked a little better, but let's be real.
People here still think that Uribe's defense is so good that it offsets his pathetic hitting. It isn't that good.

Brian still hasn't become a consistent hitter, but I think on a different team, he'd become respectable. Unfortunately, the team's hitting isn't consistent enough to carry his offensive shortcomings.

We've argued over these guys ad nauseum, though. I guess management wants to torture us. :tongue:

balke
08-13-2008, 10:51 AM
What sucks about BA is every time someone makes a thread or comment about how well he's doing, he drops his avg. back down to .213 or so over the course of 3-4 games.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 10:57 AM
To rebut, I've seen vastly more plate patience from Uribe this year, especially since he took over at 3B.

While Brian has had some nice impact hits, he's had a lot less quality at-bats. I still think he's most valuable in his current role, defensive outfielder/replacement and key hitter (and runner) off the bench.

In addition, Anderson's at-bats have come in garbage time, generally, and (I'm risking sounding like shoota here) several where he's been successful have come against bums like last night. Anderson is a 4th OF. He is great defensively and helps the Sox best in that role.

Let's be realistic - the team is not going to play both Uribe and Anderson and keep two of Konerko/Griffey/Swisher on the bench every night. It simply won't, and in my opinion shouldn't, happen. So there's no point in kicking this around any further.

PhillipsBubba
08-13-2008, 11:52 AM
The Sox are missing the boat on Brian Anderson...I see him becoming a star elsewhere.

balke
08-13-2008, 11:56 AM
The Sox are missing the boat on Brian Anderson...I see him becoming a star elsewhere.

So let's trade him for Mclouth. That's the exact player I thought Anderson was going to be when he was drafted. I think he very well could be, but he definitely isn't.

jabrch
08-13-2008, 12:02 PM
So let's trade him for Mclouth. That's the exact player I thought Anderson was going to be when he was drafted. I think he very well could be, but he definitely isn't.

I can imagine how that phonecall from Kenny would go...

Tragg
08-13-2008, 12:10 PM
Swisher is a better CF than Fields is a 3B. So there is a better alternative.

Second, he won't start in CF because Ozzie doesn't want him to. If Ozzie platooned him with Mack in 06 and put him on the bench for Erstad in 07, he certainly isn't going to play him now. Right now, Anderson is 3rd string behind Wise (mediocre defensive center fielder who has a career obp of .251).

oeo
08-13-2008, 12:15 PM
The Sox are missing the boat on Brian Anderson...I see him becoming a star elsewhere.

That's funny.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 12:16 PM
Second, he won't start in CF because Ozzie doesn't want him to. If Ozzie platooned him with Mack in 06 and put him on the bench for Erstad in 07, he certainly isn't going to play him now. Right now, Anderson is 3rd string behind Wise (mediocre defensive center fielder who has a career obp of .251).

I like how it took Ozzie 1yr of Mack in CF, to realize he wasn't a CFer. I still never got that acquisition. I always thought, Mack was an IF, who could play corner OF spots. But hey, Short term player>Long term player.

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 12:20 PM
The fact that Uribe is at 3rd is an arguement against playing Brian Anderson, not for playing him. An offense can typically carry one dead weight hitter. Juan Uribe is that guy (we have no other option)...although he's been a lot better since taking over at 3B. The arguement could be made that we have a 2nd in Konerko, but at least pitchers have to be somewhat careful with him...i.e. they can't just throw three straight sliders and call it an out. If we put BA and Uribe at 8,9 in the order, we just aren't going to score many runs in the innnings they bat. If you couple that with Konerko/Griffey/Swisher in the 7th hole, it just gets worse.

It's looking more and more like Griffey isn't going to help this team, but I think it's too early to give up on him completely. Konerko had an RBI yestreday and has been a little bit better lately. I just don't see Brian Anderson as an everyday player, especially with Uribe in there.

balke
08-13-2008, 12:20 PM
I can imagine how that phonecall from Kenny would go...


I forgot the pirates only like to do dumb deals within the division.

TDog
08-13-2008, 12:30 PM
I like how it took Ozzie 1yr of Mack in CF, to realize he wasn't a CFer. I still never got that acquisition. I always thought, Mack was an IF, who could play corner OF spots. But hey, Short term player>Long term player.

For the Pirates in 2005, Mackowiak played two more games at third than in the outfield, but he played almost twice as many games in center as he played in right and left combined. It isn't as if the Sox picked up a tutility infielder and stuck him in right filed. They had Crede at third, traded Rowand and picked up Mackowiak as an option for center. Simialrly, coming into 2008, they picked up Swisher, he closest hting the A's had to a regular centerfielder last year, as an option in center. The Sox knew what they were getting in thiese players.

jabrch
08-13-2008, 12:33 PM
I forgot the pirates only like to do dumb deals within the division.

No - they make deals that many would consider dumb with the Yanks and Red Sox also...

But the fact of the matter is that they deal expensive players, or players about ready to become FA, for prospects, at the deadline. They don't deal .280/.355/.515 who will just enter their first arbitration year. McClouth is not the profile of the player the Pirates would trade.

Bay - Tradeable
McClouth - NOT tradeable

Jack Wilson - Tradeable
Ian Snell - NOT Tradeable

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 12:35 PM
The fact that Uribe is at 3rd is an arguement against playing Brian Anderson, not for playing him. An offense can typically carry one dead weight hitter. Juan Uribe is that guy (we have no other option)...although he's been a lot better since taking over at 3B. The arguement could be made that we have a 2nd in Konerko, but at least pitchers have to be somewhat careful with him...i.e. they can't just throw three straight sliders and call it an out. If we put BA and Uribe at 8,9 in the order, we just aren't going to score many runs in the innnings they bat. If you couple that with Konerko/Griffey/Swisher in the 7th hole, it just gets worse.

It's looking more and more like Griffey isn't going to help this team, but I think it's too early to give up on him completely. Konerko had an RBI yestreday and has been a little bit better lately. I just don't see Brian Anderson as an everyday player, especially with Uribe in there.

I think the point is if the Sox are fine with carrying one "dead weight hitter," why couldn't it have been Anderson over the last 2 years. Especially considering Anderson is a better defender at a more important position.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 12:49 PM
I think the point is if the Sox are fine with carrying one "dead weight hitter," why couldn't it have been Anderson over the last 2 years. Especially considering Anderson is a better defender at a more important position.



I <3 u. Like 2 weeks ago, I projected Anderson's stats to what Swisher was at, and they were pretty much identical.

voodoochile
08-13-2008, 12:56 PM
I think the point is if the Sox are fine with carrying one "dead weight hitter," why couldn't it have been Anderson over the last 2 years. Especially considering Anderson is a better defender at a more important position.

Need. The Sox have no other acceptable player at 3B at the moment. The Sox have at least 2 other players who can play CF just fine and outhit BA as everyday players (in theory).

balke
08-13-2008, 01:01 PM
No - they make deals that many would consider dumb with the Yanks and Red Sox also...

But the fact of the matter is that they deal expensive players, or players about ready to become FA, for prospects, at the deadline. They don't deal .280/.355/.515 who will just enter their first arbitration year. McClouth is not the profile of the player the Pirates would trade.

Bay - Tradeable
McClouth - NOT tradeable

Jack Wilson - Tradeable
Ian Snell - NOT Tradeable

Well no crap, my trade was tongue in cheek. Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton traded within the division for Jose Hernandez and two worthless prospects is NOT an example of the Yankees or Red Sox deals. It was some manager helping out another team within the division to chase a World Series.

They could've gotten a lot more, salary dump or not.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:03 PM
Need. The Sox have no other acceptable player at 3B at the moment. The Sox have at least 2 other players who can play CF just fine and outhit BA as everyday players (in theory).

I've cheered on the belief of Anderson forever, and he just doesn't live up to it when he gets his chance. We are celebrating his .244 avg now. That's basically his season high. His OBP is like .278. Swisher's career numbers are way better than this Anderson peak... and to give Anderson consistant playing time, will probably just take his avg. and OBP. down. That's what it has done in the past. I'd like to see him get a chance, but he doesn't do much with those chances when given them it seems.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:04 PM
Need. The Sox have no other acceptable player at 3B at the moment. The Sox have at least 2 other players who can play CF just fine and outhit BA as everyday players (in theory).

Rob Mackowiak, Darrin Erstadt, and Nick Swisher. Three guys who basically have no business roaming centerfield.

Cora admitted in a press conference that he felt the Uribe was an asset to the team because of his outstanding defense. He said when you have eight other offensive players in the lineup, you could afford to have one defensive player.

Now when Crede was playing third the last couple years, why couldn't Anderson be the "defensive player." At least Anderson has potential and it would have given him two years to develop. If he doesn't develop into a decent hitter, at least he was an asset defensively. As I stated before, centerfield is a more important position.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:05 PM
Rob Mackowiak, Darrin Erstadt, and Nick Swisher. Three guys who basically have no business roaming centerfield.

Cora admitted in a press conference that he felt the Uribe was an asset to the team because of his outstanding defense. He said when you have 8 other offensive players in the lineup, you could afford to have one defensive player.

Now when Crede was playing third the last couple years, why couldn't Anderson be the "defensive player." At least Anderson has potential and it would have given him two years to develop. If he doesn't develop into a decent hitter, at least he was an asset defensively. As I stated before, centerfield is a more important position.

Cause Juan Uribe was at SS. Juan, Anderson, Crede... three subpar hitters. Crede's had one good season of hitting, and lots of bad seasons with HR's. Anderson should've played over Mackwiak, but he did some dumb things that year that held him back off the field.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:06 PM
Cause Juan Uribe was at SS. Juan, Anderson, Crede... three subpar hitters. Crede's had one good season of hitting, and lots of bad seasons with HR's.

No, he said this last week about Uribe playing third base, not shortstop.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:12 PM
No, he said this last week about Uribe playing third base, not shortstop.

Well the reason you couldn't have Anderson start in previous season is because they had bad hitters in the lineup already. There's plenty of good hitting this season, which is why Anderson is getting more playing time than we as fans are used to. But, you still really can't fully justify starting him. Earlier this season when Swisher sucked and didn't even show power, you could've had Anderson in there.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:15 PM
Well the reason you couldn't have Anderson start in previous season is because they had bad hitters in the lineup already. There's plenty of good hitting this season, which is why Anderson is getting more playing time than we as fans are used to. But, you still really can't fully justify starting him. Earlier this season when Swisher sucked and didn't even show power, you could've had Anderson in there.

We have had Swisher and Konerko in the lineup all year. I don't think I would call that good hitting. It seems like you are nitpicking the basic point anyways.

When does a first round draft pick who hit in the minors and plays above average defense at a very important position get a chance to start then? When he is 35?

balke
08-13-2008, 01:17 PM
We have had Swisher and Konerko in the lineup all year. I don't think I would call that good hitting. It seems like you are nitpicking the basic point anyways.

When does a first round draft pick who hit in the minors and plays above average defense at a very important position get a chance to start then? When he is 35?

He had his chance and blew it. 2006, when the Sox put all their stock in his success and he fell flat on his face. He is the reason he's not playing. He's the reason Rowand wasn't re-signed, and the reason the Sox don't have an all around CFer who can field and hit.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:18 PM
We have had Swisher and Konerko in the lineup all year. I don't think I would call that good hitting. It seems like you are nitpicking the basic point anyways.

When does a first round draft pick who hit in the minors and plays above average defense at a very important position get a chance to start then? When he is 35?

Sadly, it will be for another team.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:19 PM
He had his chance and blew it. 2006, when the Sox put all their stock in his success and he fell flat on his face. He is the reason he's not playing. He's the reason Rowand wasn't re-signed, and the reason the Sox don't have an all around CFer who can field and hit.

I see, so when he was a rookie, and never really saw MLB pitchers before, it is his fault? But, Erstad at 50yrs old roaming around in CF, was a better option then a developing BA.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:21 PM
I see, so when he was a rookie, and never really saw MLB pitchers before, it is his fault? But, Erstad at 50yrs old roaming around in CF, was a better option then a developing BA.

Do you honestly think as a player hitting below .200 he deserves to "hone his skills" at the major league level? He's 26. Yes, it is his fault. It is his fault that he cannot hit Major league pitching. If he could do that, he would be a star. I screamed at the top of my lungs to play him over Erstad and Mackowiak, but to me it wouldn't have made him any better than he is now. He himself said he wasn't taking his career as serious as he should until this season, when he realized his career might be over soon.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:21 PM
He had his chance and blew it. 2006, when the Sox put all their stock in his success and he fell flat on his face. He is the reason he's not playing. He's the reason Rowand wasn't re-signed, and the reason the Sox don't have an all around CFer who can field and hit.

Really I didn't know 116 games dictates a whole career, or an organization. How many players have struggled in their rookie season? How long did we wait for Crede to hit? How many times have the Sox strolled Juan Uribe to the plate saying he is an "asset" to this team?

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:23 PM
Do you honestly think as a player hitting below .200 he deserves to "hone his skills" at the major league level? He's 26. Yes, it is his fault. It is his fault that he cannot hit Major league pitching. If he could do that, he would be a star. I screamed at the top of my lungs to play him over Erstad and Mackowiak, but to me it wouldn't have made him any better than he is now. He himself said he wasn't taking career as serious as he should until this season, when he realized his career might be over soon.


In 2006, BA hit .225, what was Uribes the past 3yrs? Let me tell ya, .230.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:24 PM
Really I didn't know 116 games dictates a whole career, or an organization. How many players have struggled in their rookie season? How long did we wait for Crede to hit? How many times have the Sox strolled Juan Uribe to the plate saying he is an "asset" to this team?

Great point! Didn't it take Crede, like 2-3yrs to start hitting?

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 01:25 PM
I think the point is if the Sox are fine with carrying one "dead weight hitter," why couldn't it have been Anderson over the last 2 years. Especially considering Anderson is a better defender at a more important position.

Well the thing is we still had Uribe last year playing everyday too...and were already carrying him.

As for this year when Uribe was on the bench, I think the issue was they a) wanted to resist benching Konerko (track record, etc...) and Swisher (still has some pop and gets on base despite low average), see Swisher/Wise/Griffey I guess as options in CF that won't kill us defensively (debateable with Griffey) and will make up for their defensive downgrades with better offensive production than Anderson wherease at 3B Fields was a big downgrade defensively and really was a downgrade offesnively as well compared to Uribe. If we had someone else, I don't think Uribe would be there (as is evident by the fact that it was Fields' job to lose).

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all of this, but I'm just trying to explain the reasoning behind playing Uribe whereas before the team did not want to play Anderson everyday. It's not necessarily a double standard in my opinion.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:25 PM
Really I didn't know 116 games dictates a whole career, or an organization. How many players have struggled in their rookie season? How long did we wait for Crede to hit? How many times have the Sox strolled Juan Uribe to the plate saying he is an "asset" to this team?

And sadly, his offense doesn't compare to either of these two players you mentioned, he's that bad. Should they throw Boone Logan out as closer every day til he "Learns from experience"? How about Fields? Playing a game everyday doesn't make you better by default.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:28 PM
And sadly, his offense doesn't compare to either of these two players you mentioned, he's that bad. Should we throw Boone Logan out as closer every day til he "Learns from experience"? How about Fields? Playing a game everyday doesn't make you better by default.

Being long relief and having a 5.5+ ERA is wayy different then a pressure situation as a closer. Apples and oranges.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2008, 01:30 PM
I <3 u. Like 2 weeks ago, I projected Anderson's stats to what Swisher was at, and they were pretty much identical.
Except, you know, OBP.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:32 PM
And sadly, his offense doesn't compare to either of these two players you mentioned, he's that bad. Should they throw Boone Logan out as closer every day til he "Learns from experience"? How about Fields? Playing a game everyday doesn't make you better by default.

Yeah let's put Logan in the closers role. Now you're just being stupid.

If every player was judged solely by their rookie seasons, I think we would have missed out on a lot of great careers.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:34 PM
Except, you know, OBP.

How many of those BB, have translated into runs?

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2008, 01:37 PM
How many of those BB, have translated into runs?
I don't, think, it's his, responsibility, once he's, on base. Getting on base, at all, is better, than not, getting on, base.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't, think, it's his, responsibility, once he's, on base. Getting on base, at all, is better, than not, getting on, base.

I am not saying it is. What I am saying is, if he has a .230 avg with 50 runs scored and 50 BB, and Anderson has a .225 avg with 44 runs scored and 10 walks, is there really a difference?

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2008, 01:39 PM
I am not saying it is. What I am saying is, if he has a .230 avg with 50 runs scored and 50 BB, and Anderson has a .225 avg with 44 runs scored and 10 walks, is there really a difference?
Of course there is. Why wouldn't you want the guy who gets on base at a higher rate? Swisher is far from a butcher in CF.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 01:41 PM
The Sox are missing the boat on Brian Anderson...I see him becoming a star elsewhere.

American Idol, perhaps.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:41 PM
Of course there is. Why wouldn't you want the guy who gets on base at a higher rate? Swisher is far from a butcher in CF.

In theory, sure.

Craig Grebeck
08-13-2008, 01:45 PM
In theory, sure.
What does that even mean? Swisher is an all around better offensive player than Anderson. He's passable defensively.

2906
08-13-2008, 01:46 PM
Well, I don't want to get into the never ending Brian Anderson debate here, but a few points -

- He had a chance to seize the job in 2006 and struggled. Maybe in retrospect last year he should have been handed the job and allowed to grow into it. But, no one knew off the get go the Sox would lose 90 games. Further, Anderson got hurt mid year in Charlotte (wrist) and even before he got sent down he was sulking, by his own admission.

- To his credit, he is a real asset this year. He has accepted his role.

- Also I think he got lost in the shuffle here. We have to remember Williams desperately wanted to improve the offense, specifically the OBP, which is why he brought in Quentin and Swisher. So those guys were going to play. OBP and plate discipline aren't Brian's strong points and I have my doubts they ever will be. That left Brian fighting for a reserve role and again, to his credit, he won the role and is doing a good job for a team in 1st place as we speak.

- Based on the above, I believe his stock is on the rise again. Should the job open up again in 2009 via bumping Swisher to another position, he may get the job. If not, he may get traded and he should net something better in return than, say, a year ago. I give him a lot of credit for sticking with it, being a good soldier, and contributing when called upon.

- As for Uribe, everyone knows OBP and plate discipline aren't his strong points either. He's downright bad at both. He too got bumped out of a starting job (SS) and then later 2B when Ramirez came on strong. But right now the White Sox are lucky to have both guys, they are both doing their jobs.

- Finally as to why Griffey is playing and Anderson isn't, to me it's simple. The Sox are hoping for lightning in a bottle and they gave up very little to get him. They've rotated him a bit and will continue to rotate him (Jr.). Whether it works out or not remains to be seen but it was a reasonable gamble.

So to me, this Brian Anderson situation is a 2009 issue. Yeah, Swisher and Griffey will let a few balls drop that Anderson would get, but that's the route they want to go. They seem to value Swisher's plate discipline and Griffey's presence in the lineup more than what Anderson's defense brings. We will see if they're right or wrong. Every year is different.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 01:46 PM
How many of those BB, have translated into runs?

This is horrible, this argument. Do you realize just how horrible it is?

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Of course there is. Why wouldn't you want the guy who gets on base at a higher rate? Swisher is far from a butcher in CF.

While I am a big fan of Swisher's OBP clip. He is still only hitting .235 and slugging .415.

I wouldn't call him a butcher in centerfield, but he isn't very good at all. Numerous times this year I have seen him get bad jumps on balls, turn the wrong way, or take the wrong route. Not to mention his arm is embarassing. I don't know why the Sox are so against having a natural centerfield, whether it be Anderson or someone else.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:48 PM
While I am a big fan of Swisher's OBP clip. He is still only hitting .235 and slugging .415.

I wouldn't call him a butcher in centerfield, but he isn't very good at all. Numerous times this year I have seen him get bad jumps on balls, turn the wrong way, or take the wrong route. Not to mention his arm is embarassing. I don't know why the Sox are so against having a natural centerfield, whether it be Anderson or someone else.

Thus why they have Griffey who won't take bad routes or get bad jumps, but who is slower. His bat is better than both of these players.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:51 PM
Thus why they have Griffey who won't take bad routes or get bad jumps, but who is slower. His bat is better than both of these players.

I'm not following your argument here. Are Griffey and Swisher combining their skills now? Griffey was a natural centerfield 5 years ago.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 01:51 PM
I am so glad the Sox are back to being in such control of first that we can start yet another 4th outfielder thread. Laughable!

I'm going to go over to the Cubs fan site and see if I can get involved in some sort of DeRosa/Johnson/Edmonds argument and toss in the argument that they're all keeping Felix Pie from exhibiting his awesome skills. Piniella must hate Pie! Well, not pies, but definitely Pie! How do you sign a reserve outfielder in Johnson, a washed-up CF in Edmonds, and play them when you have awesome talent Felix Pie!? I mean, sure, Pie failed a couple times when briefly given the starting job, but hey, he WAS A ROOKIE!!! If we judged every rookie on their immediatel impact, we would miss out on a lot of great careers!

Once some other team gets their hands on Pie, the whole Cubs organization will rue the day they didn't play him 162 games a season until he found his stroke! After all, didn't it take Joe Crede 2-3 seasons of struggling until he became a solidly mediocre hitter?

CashMan
08-13-2008, 01:52 PM
This is horrible, this argument. Do you realize just how horrible it is?

Is it as horrible as the thought of Juan Uribe playing baseball? The team is built around power, if the walks are not translating into runs, I would rather have defense in the field over wasted walks.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm not following your argument here. Are Griffey and Swisher combining their skills now? Griffey was a natural centerfield 5 years ago.


Griffey reads the ball better off the bat, no matter where he's playing. I don't see a difference between the two in terms of defensive worth in CF. I do however see that Swisher has little upside at the plate, and less power, OBP, and avg. than Griffey. To me, Griffey is the upgrade at CF for this team.

2906
08-13-2008, 01:55 PM
I don't know why the Sox are so against having a natural centerfield, whether it be Anderson or someone else.

Believe me they aren't against it at all. They would LOVE to have a 4 or 5 tool guy out there, hence the pursuit of Torii Hunter last winter.

If they had no faith whatsoever in Anderson they would've dumped him for next to nothing last winter. They kept him, and now he's serving a very valuable role. For the team, that seems like a win-win to me. For Brian, he has now proven (or is proving) to the White Sox and the other 29 teams he can fit into a team, keep his head on straight, and perform when called upon. That's good for Brian too.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 01:56 PM
Is it as horrible as the thought of Juan Uribe playing baseball? The team is built around power, if the walks are not translating into runs, I would rather have defense in the field over wasted walks.

Do you not grasp the concept that getting on base more often is ideal if the guys behind you are expected to hit for power? A walk or a hit is great, because in theory the next guy hits a 2-run homer.

You and TDog should get together and GM a team - his concept on ERA v. wins is about the same as yours on hitting.

Occasionally, I question whether Sox fans are the "smartest fans in baseball" when I hear baseball theories like this.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:56 PM
Griffey reads the ball better off the bat, no matter where he's playing. I don't see a difference between the two in terms of defensive worth in CF.

I'm still not following where you are going with this. When did we start comparing Griffey and Swisher defensively? Neither play centerfield very well.

balke
08-13-2008, 01:57 PM
Believe me they aren't against it at all. They would LOVE to have a 4 or 5 tool guy out there, hence the pursuit of Torii Hunter last winter.

If they had no faith whatsoever in Anderson they would've dumped him for next to nothing last winter. They kept him, and now he's serving a very valuable role. For the team, that seems like a win-win to me. For Brian, he has now proven (or is proving) to the White Sox and the other 29 teams he can fit into a team, keep his head on straight, and perform when called upon. That's good for Brian too.


Can't we just bring back Terrero? I'm sure with everyday playing time he'll become a superstar too.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:57 PM
Believe me they aren't against it at all. They would LOVE to have a 4 or 5 tool guy out there, hence the pursuit of Torii Hunter last winter.

If they had no faith whatsoever in Anderson they would've dumped him for next to nothing last winter. They kept him, and now he's serving a very valuable role. For the team, that seems like a win-win to me. For Brian, he has now proven (or is proving) to the White Sox and the other 29 teams he can fit into a team, keep his head on straight, and perform when called upon. That's good for Brian too.

You talk sense. I like that.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 01:58 PM
Can't we just bring back Terrero? I'm sure with everyday playing time he'll become a superstar too.

You don't talk sense. I don't like that.

balke
08-13-2008, 02:01 PM
I'm still not following where you are going with this. When did we start comparing Griffey and Swisher defensively? Neither play centerfield very well.

Let me try and spell it out for you.

Q: 1) This thread asks: Why not Anderson in CF?
A: He can't hit.
Rebuttal: He could if.
RE: Rebuttal: If he could he would, but he can't so he don't.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Let me try and spell it out for you.

Q: 1) This thread asks: Why not Anderson in CF?
A: He can't hit.
Rebuttal: He could if.
RE: Rebuttal: If he could he would, but he can't so he don't.

Huh?

CashMan
08-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Do you not grasp the concept that getting on base more often is ideal if the guys behind you are expected to hit for power? A walk or a hit is great, because in theory the next guy hits a 2-run homer.

You and TDog should get together and GM a team - his concept on ERA v. wins is about the same as yours on hitting.

Occasionally, I question whether Sox fans are the "smartest fans in baseball" when I hear baseball theories like this.


I understand that taking more pitches wears on the opposing pitcher, I also understand that getting on base, will result in runs being scored. I simply asked how many of his walks of his, have translated into runs being scored. IF the number was low, then I would rather have better defense in the game. What was the 2000 team about? Out hitting the opposing team. 2005 team, was about pitching, 2008 teams seems to be back about out hitting teams. The half year, that we had a lead off hitter, it seemed to work, what I cannot understand is, why the team seems to be going back to the HR or nothing. BTW: ERA> wins

2906
08-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Can't we just bring back Terrero? I'm sure with everyday playing time he'll become a superstar too.

Interesting you bring up his name. I was thinking he could contribute, he's good defensively and I thought, wow, here's a guy who is being given a golden opportunity to show he's a major leaguer.

But we all saw what happened. Terrero decided to do things his way, offering up bad at bat after bad at bat. Which is why they decided to part ways with him.

They didn't part ways with Anderson, preferring to give him a chance to contribute in whatever way they deemed best for the club. And that's what he's doing. He gets high marks from me for that. Do I think he has holes in his game? Yes, I do. I feel the same way about Swisher and the 2008 version of Griffey and Konerko and Uribe etc. etc. But I do feel Brian has fixed one big hole in his game, and that is accepting a role, fitting in with a team, and showing the mental fortitude of a big leaguer. We'll see where that takes him in the future, whether it's here or elsewhere.

balke
08-13-2008, 02:04 PM
You don't talk sense. I don't like that.

Luis Terrero = 5 tool prospect that played over Anderson last season. He has just as much chance to develop at the MLB level as Anderson, but won't because he can't. He just doesn't have "it" as in the ability to hit MLB pitching.

Tragg
08-13-2008, 02:04 PM
Bay - Tradeable
McClouth - NOT tradeable

Jack Wilson - Tradeable
Ian Snell - NOT Tradeable
The point on McClouth is that his stats weren't very good until he hit 27 or so and was allowed to play every day and he blossomed. Is that Anderson? Probably not, but he still looks like a .325 OBP player who will hit 20-25 homers and play excellent defense. For whatever that's worth.

The problem with how he's been handled is that the opportunity cost in playing him was ridiculously low - yet the field staff STILL wouldn't play him. That says more about the field staff than it does him. Today, the cost is higher as there are better alternatives than Mack or Erstad (Swisher and Griffey) - so I certainly can understand why he doesn't start now (06 and 07 are different stories). That said, playing Wise at anything other than pinch runner is pure insanity.

balke
08-13-2008, 02:06 PM
Interesting you bring up his name. I was thinking he could contribute, he's good defensively and I thought, wow, here's a guy who is being given a golden opportunity to show he's a major leaguer.

But we all saw what happened. Terrero decided to do things his way, offering up bad at bat after bad at bat. Which is why they decided to part ways with him.

They didn't part ways with Anderson, preferring to give him a chance to contribute in whatever way they deemed best for the club. And that's what he's doing. He gets high marks from me for that. Do I think he has holes in his game? Yes, I do. I feel the same way about Swisher and the 2008 version of Griffey and Konerko and Uribe etc. etc. But I do feel Brian has fixed one big hole in his game, and that is accepting a role, fitting in with a team, and showing the mental fortitude of a big leaguer. We'll see where that takes him in the future, whether it's here or elsewhere.

Contrary to my tone in this thread, I agree. He's a great 4th outfielder this season, and just what the Sox need on the bench. If the stuff hit the fan, he could also play as a starter and not destroy this team I don't think. But, no its not acceptable to start him over Griffey or Swisher at this point.

PhillipsBubba
08-13-2008, 02:08 PM
American Idol, perhaps.

Ohhhhhh....you so funny:rolleyes:

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 02:11 PM
Luis Terrero = 5 tool prospect that played over Anderson last season. He has just as much chance to develop at the MLB level as Anderson, but won't because he can't. He just doesn't have "it" as in the ability to hit MLB pitching.

Yeah I know who he is. Your posts of "put Logan as the closer," and "Terrero will be a superstar," are just very stupid and stray from the original argument. If you want to have a sensible argument, posts like that just come off as childish.

Looking back at your vague posts, I think you were trying to say Griffey and Anderson are comparable defensively. Is that true? If so, you are going to lose most of your credibility.

2906
08-13-2008, 02:12 PM
The half year, that we had a lead off hitter, it seemed to work, what I cannot understand is, why the team seems to be going back to the HR or nothing.

Yours is a fair point. I think the answer is the availability of such players, meaning above average leadoff hitters. I know Guillen would love a true leadoff hitter and my sense is Williams would as well. They haven't acquired one, not that there are too many out there for the taking. This, as much as anything, is why there's been so much scrutiny on drafting and development. It's a big reason why Shaffer was fired and a bunch of scouts were fired last winter.

I don't entirely think they've gone the HR or nothing approach. Remember they specifically targeted OBP guys like Quentin and Swisher. They wanted better at bats, make the opposing pitchers work hard. It so happens Quentin has both OBP and power, it was a brilliant acquisition. Swisher, somewhat less on both counts but they really want OBP skills and I think we will continue to see a move in that direction.

balke
08-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Yours is a fair point. I think the answer is the availability of such players, meaning above average leadoff hitters. I know Guillen would love a true leadoff hitter and my sense is Williams would as well. They haven't acquired one, not that there are too many out there for the taking. This, as much as anything, is why there's been so much scrutiny on drafting and development. It's a big reason why Shaffer was fired and a bunch of scouts were fired last winter.

I don't entirely think they've gone the HR or nothing approach. Remember they specifically targeted OBP guys like Quentin and Swisher. They wanted better at bats, make the opposing pitchers work hard. It so happens Quentin has both OBP and power, it was a brilliant acquisition. Swisher, somewhat less on both counts but they really want OBP skills and I think we will continue to see a move in that direction.

The Sox acquired a lot of guys who take a lot of pitchers. Add some HR guys who can tear apart bullpens with weak pitchers, and you have success. I think they were planning on getting guys like Santana and Sabathia out of the game early with good at-bats. I think it was a good plan, and has worked well in many games this season. Its kinda like Hawk always talks about, with how important a 6th inning relief pitcher is becoming. The Sox will take a shutout for 5 innings if they get 4 against a weak bullpen.

Swisher leads the league in P/Pa with Thome/Griffey/Dye all in the top 40.

2906
08-13-2008, 02:20 PM
The Sox acquired a lot of guys who take a lot of pitchers. Add some HR guys who can tear apart bullpens with weak pitchers, and you have success. I think it was a good plan, and has worked well in many games this season.

Yes.

Which kind of brings the thread full circle in a way.

You need a very good offense to win in the American League. They made some acquisitions with that in mind. Some of the residual effect has been more of an emphasis on the offense a player brings to the team vs. the defense they bring.

It would be great if the White Sox had five tool players at every position, but that just doesn't happen.

kittle42
08-13-2008, 02:39 PM
Ohhhhhh....you so funny:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want. I have always tried to remain neutral in this ridiculous 4th OF debate. But, objectively speaking, the "Anderson is not going to amount to much more than a 4th OF" crowd has more realistic support than the "I have a feeling Anderson will be a star" crowd.

I certainly hope the latter crowd is right, of course, as long as Anderson is going to stay on the Sox.

voodoochile
08-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Rob Mackowiak, Darrin Erstadt, and Nick Swisher. Three guys who basically have no business roaming centerfield.

Cora admitted in a press conference that he felt the Uribe was an asset to the team because of his outstanding defense. He said when you have eight other offensive players in the lineup, you could afford to have one defensive player.

Now when Crede was playing third the last couple years, why couldn't Anderson be the "defensive player." At least Anderson has potential and it would have given him two years to develop. If he doesn't develop into a decent hitter, at least he was an asset defensively. As I stated before, centerfield is a more important position.

Bull****. Swisher plays CF just fine. Is he as good as BA defensively? No. Is he good enough? Absolutely.

champagne030
08-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Roll your eyes all you want. I have always tried to remain neutral in this ridiculous 4th OF debate. But, objectively speaking, the "Anderson is not going to amount to much more than a 4th OF" crowd has more realistic support than the "I have a feeling Anderson will be a star" crowd.

I certainly hope the latter crowd is right, of course, as long as Anderson is going to stay on the Sox.

I'm not getting into this debate again, but it seems the argument is usually between two much bigger crowds - Anderson could be a decent to solid everyday offensive player vs. he completely sucks ass and should've been DFA'd yesterday.

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 03:20 PM
I am so glad the Sox are back to being in such control of first that we can start yet another 4th outfielder thread. Laughable!

I'm going to go over to the Cubs fan site and see if I can get involved in some sort of DeRosa/Johnson/Edmonds argument and toss in the argument that they're all keeping Felix Pie from exhibiting his awesome skills. Piniella must hate Pie! Well, not pies, but definitely Pie! How do you sign a reserve outfielder in Johnson, a washed-up CF in Edmonds, and play them when you have awesome talent Felix Pie!? I mean, sure, Pie failed a couple times when briefly given the starting job, but hey, he WAS A ROOKIE!!! If we judged every rookie on their immediatel impact, we would miss out on a lot of great careers!

Once some other team gets their hands on Pie, the whole Cubs organization will rue the day they didn't play him 162 games a season until he found his stroke! After all, didn't it take Joe Crede 2-3 seasons of struggling until he became a solidly mediocre hitter?

That made me almost lose it at my desk right now. Nice post.

It's Dankerific
08-13-2008, 03:35 PM
BA is the 5th OF, not the 4th. You can see Super Wise's stats if you want proof.

I find it interesting people proposing the merits of taking an extra pitch or two wearing down an opposing pitcher is SOOO valuable because their guy (Swish) does that while completely disregarding the complete AT BATS our pitcher has to pitch when Swish/Wise and company let catchable balls drop or let singles turn into doubles, runners score when they should be held, etc.

Its obvious that Ozzie doesn't want BA playing CF on any regular basis. We will live with all of Ozzie and KW's decisions this year whether we like them or not.

chaerulez
08-13-2008, 04:02 PM
Wow I didn't this thread would get this popular. But it's nice to see this is an important topic to White Sox fans. Now, I understand Uribe and Anderson aren't the ideal starters on a championship contending team. But given the philosophy of playing Uribe over Fields it seems we are valuing Uribe's defense over Fields' offense in that position. However, Fields struggles this year do factor in. But if we look at the Anderson in CF and Swisher in 1B argument, it comes down to Anderson's glove versus Paulie's bat. PK has been hot lately but his overall season stats are .219/.322/.366 with a OPS+ 81. Anderson in a much smaller sample size has a OPS+ of 88. So as of right now, Anderson is slighty a better offensive player than Konerko. Of course given twice as many at bats it could be a different story. But right now Anderson gives you a slightly better bat in the lineup and the entire defense of the team is changed with a + glove in both CF and 1B instead of average gloves in those positions. Of course 1B is one of the least important positions defensively so the defensive upgrade in CF is what we truly are looking at.

I guess my point is for an organization that has been very impatient with Anderson's bat, they have given Uribe a lot of passes. I just don't get why they value defense in 3B but don't seem to care for it in CF. If we maintained the same philosophy at the 3B position as we treat CF, I think the organization would've tried to get a player like Casey Blake. Of course Crede wasn't on the 15 day DL yet, at least I don't think. But I guess this is the eternal argument of what would win us more games, fielding an above average defensive team or an average one in hopes of slightly better offensive production?

balke
08-13-2008, 04:09 PM
BA is the 5th OF, not the 4th. You can see Super Wise's stats if you want proof.


Wise gets starts, Anderson is used more as the late inning defensive replacement. I knew someone was going to nitpick who was 5 or 4 now just because there's a # there.

Daver
08-13-2008, 04:12 PM
I guess my point is for an organization that has been very impatient with Anderson's bat, they have given Uribe a lot of passes. I just don't get why they value defense in 3B but don't seem to care for it in CF.

Three of the five pitchers in the rotation are ground ball pitchers for the most part, you need better infield defense.

turners56
08-13-2008, 04:22 PM
Just curious. What's swish, konerko and Griff's ops+?

Griffey - 97
Konerko - 81
Swisher - 101

Swisher is the only above league average offensive producer on that list.

Konerko05
08-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Bull****. Swisher plays CF just fine. Is he as good as BA defensively? No. Is he good enough? Absolutely.

No it's not bull****. Swisher is not a good defensive centerfielder by any means. I can't really tell you if he's "good enough" because that is subjective.

Like I said before he constantly gets bad reads, takes bad routes to balls, and turns the wrong way going back for a ball. His arm is weak and forces him to play even more shallow with runners on base, which he still has no chance of throwing out.

It's Dankerific
08-13-2008, 05:10 PM
BA has 13 ABs since the All Star break (hitting .385!)...lowest on the team by far....even Wise has twice as many.


and 1 less hit .182/.217/.273 in 22 ABs

BA was the top line and Wise was the bottom line. Could you imagine if that was reversed? People would be bitching every time BA stepped to the plate that Wise was being wasted.

There is no reason Wise should be starting over BA. None. Whether thats one game out of 50 or once a week, its insanity.

Tragg
08-13-2008, 05:44 PM
BA was the top line and Wise was the bottom line. Could you imagine if that was reversed? People would be bitching every time BA stepped to the plate that Wise was being wasted.

There is no reason Wise should be starting over BA. None. Whether thats one game out of 50 or once a week, its insanity.
There certainly is NO reason for Wise to play except as pinch runner. Along the lines of Owens plays before Quentin and Uribe is better than Ramirez, expect Wise to keep playing.
Anderson has been pretty productive in the few ABs he's had the last 6 weeks.

balke
08-13-2008, 05:49 PM
There certainly is NO reason for Wise to play except as pinch runner. Along the lines of Owens plays before Quentin and Uribe is better than Ramirez, expect Wise to keep playing.
Anderson has been pretty productive in the few ABs he's had the last 6 weeks.


He's hit close to .300 ever since he got called up with a .484 SLG% and he's quick on the basepaths... where is this belief coming from that Wise shouldn't be playing? If anything, he's the quiet medium between Swisher and Griffey's D v. Anderson's, while also being a better hitter than Anderson while given the opportunity this season.

DickAllen72
08-13-2008, 05:54 PM
This isn't April, June or even July. It's the middle of August and since Paulie is still not producing, he should not be considered to be the first string first-baseman. And from what Griffey has shown physically in the outfield, he should not be considered a starter in the field.

At this point the Sox would have their best chance of winning with Uribe at 3B and Anderson in CF. The offensive dropoff from either Konerko or Griffey in the lineup to BA is negligible and the defense BA provides far outweighs any power Konerko/Griffey have shown. (And for the record, I've never been a "FOBA")

But as a few have already pointed out, none of this matters since Ozzie and KW appear to be stuck on PK and KG Jr. no matter how bad they are at this point in their careers. (And for the record, I could probably be considered a "FOKW" and I'm not an "Ozzie Hater").

Daver
08-13-2008, 05:55 PM
He's hit close to .300 ever since he got called up with a .484 SLG% and he's quick on the basepaths... where is this belief coming from that Wise shouldn't be playing? If anything, he's the quiet medium between Swisher and Griffey's D v. Anderson's, while also being a better hitter than Anderson while given the opportunity this season.

His defense is terrible and he can't read a ball off the bat to save his life.

RockyMtnSoxFan
08-13-2008, 06:21 PM
It seems to me that the trade of offense for defense (if it is indeed a trade) you get by putting BA in center and sitting Konerko and Griffey is well worth it because you are giving a little bit more protection to the pitchers. Short term it may be close to a wash if Anderson is as terrible a hitter a some think he is, but long term you're saving wear and tear on your starters in particular, and increasing their confidence. If a pitcher believes he has to force ground balls because fly balls turn into hits, he will change his approach. He cannot be as aggressive, and becomes more predictable. This could lead to higher pitch counts, less confidence (when hitters adjust and start driving the ball), etc.

We all know that it was pitching that won the championship in 2005, and pitching is usually the more important commodity. It seems to me that you should do whatever is necessary to protect and enable your pitchers.

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 06:28 PM
The fact that Uribe is at 3rd is an arguement against playing Brian Anderson, not for playing him. An offense can typically carry one dead weight hitter. le bit better lately. I just don't see Brian Anderson as an everyday player, especially with Uribe in there.

But neither player is a "dead weight" hitter right now. Uribe is hitting ~.270 since the break...BA's average is higher than Konerko's...I agree with you over the course of an entire season. But with PK hitting the way he is (or isn't) and the need to take as much pressure off the pitching as possible (w/good defense)...I think BA is the way to go for the home stretch of this season.

Daver
08-13-2008, 06:36 PM
But neither player is a "dead weight" hitter right now. Uribe is hitting ~.270 since the break...BA's average is higher than Konerko's...I agree with you over the course of an entire season. But with PK hitting the way he is (or isn't) and the need to take as much pressure off the pitching as possible (w/good defense)...I think BA is the way to go for the home stretch of this season.

It would be interesting to see how Brian could do against RHP, which is rare, he plays against LHP mostly, and has never has never hit it well.

CashMan
08-13-2008, 06:42 PM
It would be interesting to see how Brian could do against RHP, which is rare, he plays against LHP mostly, and has never has never hit it well.


Setting him up to fail?

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 06:44 PM
Bull****. Swisher plays CF just fine. Is he as good as BA defensively? No. Is he good enough? Absolutely.

Name ONE starting CF in the American League who is worse defensively than Swisher. Go ahead....I dare ya.

It's Dankerific
08-13-2008, 06:45 PM
Setting him up to fail?

I don't think either OG or KW has it out for BA. Ozzie just doesn't think he's a viable option. Maybe its because of 2006, maybe its because he prefers veterans, I can't speak to say.

I think its a mistake in judgement by Ozzie, but nothing with malice.

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 06:49 PM
It seems to me that the trade of offense for defense (if it is indeed a trade) you get by putting BA in center and sitting Konerko and Griffey is well worth it because you are giving a little bit more protection to the pitchers. Short term it may be close to a wash if Anderson is as terrible a hitter a some think he is, but long term you're saving wear and tear on your starters in particular, and increasing their confidence. If a pitcher believes he has to force ground balls because fly balls turn into hits, he will change his approach. He cannot be as aggressive, and becomes more predictable. This could lead to higher pitch counts, less confidence (when hitters adjust and start driving the ball), etc.

We all know that it was pitching that won the championship in 2005, and pitching is usually the more important commodity. It seems to me that you should do whatever is necessary to protect and enable your pitchers.

Thank you for bringing up the aspect of the argument that includes the benefits to a pitcher when he has a Gold Glove caliber CF vs. a corner OF out there. A few balls that drop when the corner OF is out there but are caught when the gold glover is out there can save enough outs/pitches to allow the starter to go an extra inning. Not to mention the lift at 1st base by playing Swisher over Konerko. That extra inning is the difference between your bullpen being Dotel/Jenks for the 8th/9th ot dipping into the Carrasco/Russell well in the 7th. So far Griffey is costing us more runs by his poor defense than he's producing with his .185 average.

RockyMtnSoxFan
08-13-2008, 06:58 PM
Thank you for bringing up the aspect of the argument that includes the benefits to a pitcher when he has a Gold Glove caliber CF vs. a corner OF out there. A few balls that drop when the corner OF is out there but are caught when the gold glover is out there can save enough outs/pitches to allow the starter to go an extra inning. Not to mention the lift at 1st base by playing Swisher over Konerko. That extra inning is the difference between your bullpen being Dotel/Jenks for the 8th/9th ot dipping into the Carrasco/Russell well in the 7th. So far Griffey is costing us more runs by his poor defense than he's producing with his .185 average.

I agree, but I would even go further. I think that the long term benefit this might have on the pitching staff could be the difference between having our rotation fall apart in late September or October, versus having renewed confidence and less stress on their arms and pitching us deep into the playoffs. Especially with a guy like Vazquez, who seems to be a head case, the knowledge that fly balls are more likely to be caught can help them attack hitters and avoid high-stress innings.

I think that pitching is important enough that it should be the main focus rather than offense. A team is more likely to be successful with good pitching and OK hitting than with OK pitching and good hitting.

Thigpen "57"
08-13-2008, 07:14 PM
I agree, but I would even go further. I think that the long term benefit this might have on the pitching staff could be the difference between having our rotation fall apart in late September or October, versus having renewed confidence and less stress on their arms and pitching us deep into the playoffs. Especially with a guy like Vazquez, who seems to be a head case, the knowledge that fly balls are more likely to be caught can help them attack hitters and avoid high-stress innings.

I think that pitching is important enough that it should be the main focus rather than offense. A team is more likely to be successful with good pitching and OK hitting than with OK pitching and good hitting.


Mos def.

What really frustrates me, is that Kenny has been on the record numerous times saying the same thing in that pitching is the most important componet to a winning franchise.

That is probably what has been most complexing about the Griffey trade. We are all excited because of the nostalgia, as well as the veteran potential he has, but it has been glaringly obvious before Jose got knocked out for the season that we needed a veteran pitcher, and not a hitter. Although the trade itself was not bad.

Since the market has not been good for the Sox in terms of trading for another solid starter, it would seem to make sense to have the best defense out there for your pitchers. Which one thing Ozzie desserves props for is his repeated (but not enough) use of BA in late innings, and Swish at first. Something he has not had the benefit of doing with a lineup late in a game until this season.

Griffey and Swish are not responsible for losing any games in center, but it could be argued that the intagible game changing hit or play could favor the Sox more with better D in the field.

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 07:19 PM
Mos def.

What really frustrates me, is that Kenny has been on the record numerous times saying the same thing in that pitching is the most important componet to a winning franchise.



I don't understand why KW and OG don't place a higher priority on defense. Especially when you have a pretty good offense overall and the slow footed sluggers getting in the way of your best defense (Konerko and Griffey) aren't hitting a lick.

Thigpen "57"
08-13-2008, 07:24 PM
I don't understand why KW and OG don't place a higher priority on defense. Especially when you have a pretty good offense overall and the slow footed sluggers getting in the way of your best defense (Konerko and Griffey) aren't hitting a lick.


Like I said, that is what is most frustrating. Ozzie is always talking about having really good D as well, hence the Uribe situation. Which, thank goodness, he has been playing while Joey is out instead Fields or Ozuna (how is he doing in L.A.?).

While Swish has been very servicable in center, that position has been the most glaring hole on this team since our big moment in '05.

One other thing, I think Kenny deserves credit for being aggresive at getting some bullpen arms. We all know how much of a coin toss the success of a reliever can be, but at least he is trying to keep us in it while our pen has been getting eaten up from injuries and overuse.

Tragg
08-13-2008, 07:42 PM
He's hit close to .300 ever since he got called up with a .484 SLG% and he's quick on the basepaths... where is this belief coming from that Wise shouldn't be playing? If anything, he's the quiet medium between Swisher and Griffey's D v. Anderson's, while also being a better hitter than Anderson while given the opportunity this season.
His .251 Career OBP earned over 6 major league seasons; his mediocre defense; his lack of an important hit in 6 weeks; and that batting average was earned over a period from June 17-June 24 where he went 8 for 16 (for those following obp, he got 2 of his 3 walks in that stretch, too). Aside from that stretch, he's 10 for 46, which is a .217 batting average. The only edge he has on anyone (including Anderson) is his speed.

It's not unusual...Guillen's had a soft spot for this type of player since he's been managing.
Ozuna can play infield and outfield. He had more value than Wise.

Frater Perdurabo
08-13-2008, 07:52 PM
I've repeated my arguments on this issue over and over again.

I'll just say that I too favor defense "up the middle" and at third base, and therefore as long as BA is hitting above .225 with decent doubles power, I'd like to see him patrolling CF. I'd also like to see what his average would be if he got regular at-bats against RHP, whom he historically hits better than LHP.

soxinem1
08-13-2008, 08:13 PM
True, the BA loving may be beating a dead horse, but being a BA booster for regular playing time, I agree with the assessment.

The thing that is tiring are the flimsy explainations both he and Ozzie come up with when doing these moves. At least when Jerry Manuel was manager, he came straight out and said the team would have to out-slug the opposition to win.

But all this small-ball crap was a half-season fluke which happened to win a World Series.

Guillen has been manager for five seasons, and only the 2005 team was even partially defense/speed orientated.

Since KW has been GM, he has proven time and time again he prefers veterans, even washed-up ones, over giving young players a chance.

He did it in 2001 when they tried to make Jose Valentin a CF.

He did it again in 2002 when they added Lofton over Rowand, put Valentin at 3B, and only had three real starting pitchers to begin the season.

He did it in 2003 when he sacrificed defense for putting Carl Everett in CF over Rowand, and added Roberto Alomar to add nothing.

He did it again in 2004 when he brought Alomar and Everett back despite the fact that Willie Harris, Rowand, Ross Gload, and Timo Perez were producing just fine.

He did it again in 2006 when, instead of developing the guy who snagged many a fly ball that saved a mediocre pitching staff in the first half of the season (and the team was leading the world in runs scored to boot), they put 2B/3B/LF/DH Rob Mackowiak in the most key defensive position you could have for a fly-ball pitching staff. To add offense. Wise move.

He did it this year by putting Swisher in CF.

So to be quite honest, when has defense, other than part of 2005, EVER been a priority of Ken Williams?

TomBradley72
08-13-2008, 08:13 PM
Ozuna can play infield and outfield. He had more value than Wise.

Ozzie wanted a stolen base threat off the bench. Ozuna had zero stolen bases for the White Sox this season. He has 1 while hitting .200 for the Dodgers...and he cannot play the outfield....other than some emergency where every other OF is not available. At the time of the decision...PK was on the DL...so Swisher was at 1B...and we were a little short at OF.

Frater Perdurabo
08-13-2008, 08:29 PM
True, the BA loving may be beating a dead horse, but being a BA booster for regular playing time, I agree with the assessment.

The thing that is tiring are the flimsy explainations both he and Ozzie come up with when doing these moves. At least when Jerry Manuel was manager, he came straight out and said the team would have to out-slug the opposition to win.

But all this small-ball crap was a half-season fluke which happened to win a World Series.

Guillen has been manager for five seasons, and only the 2005 team was even partially defense/speed orientated.

Since KW has been GM, he has proven time and time again he prefers veterans, even washed-up ones, over giving young players a chance.

He did it in 2001 when they tried to make Jose Valentin a CF.

He did it again in 2002 when they added Lofton over Rowand, put Valentin at 3B, and only had three real starting pitchers to begin the season.

He did it in 2003 when he sacrificed defense for putting Carl Everett in CF over Rowand, and added Roberto Alomar to add nothing.

He did it again in 2004 when he brought Alomar and Everett back despite the fact that Willie Harris, Rowand, Ross Gload, and Timo Perez were producing just fine.

He did it again in 2006 when, instead of developing the guy who snagged many a fly ball that saved a mediocre pitching staff in the first half of the season (and the team was leading the world in runs scored to boot), they put 2B/3B/LF/DH Rob Mackowiak in the most key defensive position you could have for a fly-ball pitching staff. To add offense. Wise move.

He did it this year by putting Swisher in CF.

So to be quite honest, when has defense, other than part of 2005, EVER been a priority of Ken Williams?

Great post. I think infield defense has been a priority, but CF defense most certainly has NOT been a priority. If anything, this team views CF as an "offense-first" position, as much as LF, 1B or DH is an "offense-first" position.

champagne030
08-13-2008, 08:42 PM
It would be interesting to see how Brian could do against RHP, which is rare, he plays against LHP mostly, and has never has never hit it well.

Maybe you're trying to make a point about his hitting overall, but he hits RHP better than LHP. I didn't look up his minor league splits, but from what I saw he hit righties fine down there.

Daver
08-13-2008, 08:46 PM
Maybe you're trying to make a point about his hitting overall, but he hits RHP better than LHP. I didn't look up his minor league splits, but from what I saw he hit righties fine down there.

I really need to double check what I have typed better.

Yes, my point was Brian has historically, going back to before college, not hit LHP particularly well, yet Ozzie only plays him against lefties.

BigP50
08-13-2008, 08:46 PM
I'm not a fan of Brian at all.

And with Griffey and Swish on the team he won't get time

Adele_H
08-13-2008, 11:58 PM
True, the BA loving may be beating a dead horse, but being a BA booster for regular playing time, I agree with the assessment.

The thing that is tiring are the flimsy explainations both he and Ozzie come up with when doing these moves. At least when Jerry Manuel was manager, he came straight out and said the team would have to out-slug the opposition to win.

But all this small-ball crap was a half-season fluke which happened to win a World Series.

Guillen has been manager for five seasons, and only the 2005 team was even partially defense/speed orientated.

Since KW has been GM, he has proven time and time again he prefers veterans, even washed-up ones, over giving young players a chance.

He did it in 2001 when they tried to make Jose Valentin a CF.

He did it again in 2002 when they added Lofton over Rowand, put Valentin at 3B, and only had three real starting pitchers to begin the season.

He did it in 2003 when he sacrificed defense for putting Carl Everett in CF over Rowand, and added Roberto Alomar to add nothing.

He did it again in 2004 when he brought Alomar and Everett back despite the fact that Willie Harris, Rowand, Ross Gload, and Timo Perez were producing just fine.

He did it again in 2006 when, instead of developing the guy who snagged many a fly ball that saved a mediocre pitching staff in the first half of the season (and the team was leading the world in runs scored to boot), they put 2B/3B/LF/DH Rob Mackowiak in the most key defensive position you could have for a fly-ball pitching staff. To add offense. Wise move.

He did it this year by putting Swisher in CF.

So to be quite honest, when has defense, other than part of 2005, EVER been a priority of Ken Williams?

Don't forget Gload, Daubach, Ozuna in the OF.

They even had Magglio play CF in the Metrodome for a couple of games IIRC.

:puking:

Adele_H
08-14-2008, 12:14 AM
As for Uribe/Anderson debate...

Juan has quicker hands; Brian has better plate coverage. Neither can recognise/hit a good breaking ball to save their lives.

I'd like to see what they could do (and not do) with a good hitting coach, though, before writing either off completely as a hopeless utility player.

BigP50
08-14-2008, 12:17 AM
This thread really doesn't make sense, they play 2 different positions.

As for there hitting BA is obviously better

voodoochile
08-14-2008, 12:56 AM
This thread really doesn't make sense, they play 2 different positions.

As for there hitting BA is obviously better

Maybe if you took the time to read the posts instead of simply hitting reply you would be able to figure out what the discussion is all about, but far be it from me to get in the way of a good session of flooding the forums with post after post after post...

BigP50
08-14-2008, 12:58 AM
Maybe if you took the time to read the posts instead of simply hitting reply you would be able to figure out what the discussion is all about, but far be it from me to get in the way of a good session of flooding the forums with post after post after post...


sorry man :whiner:

kittle42
08-14-2008, 11:25 AM
This thread really doesn't make sense, they play 2 different positions.

As for there hitting BA is obviously better

5 minutes in the penalty box.

Tragg
08-14-2008, 02:25 PM
Ozzie wanted a stolen base threat off the bench. Ozuna had zero stolen bases for the White Sox this season. He has 1 while hitting .200 for the Dodgers...and he cannot play the outfield....other than some emergency where every other OF is not available. At the time of the decision...PK was on the DL...so Swisher was at 1B...and we were a little short at OF.
I don't disagree - a Wise or an Ozuna are readily available for free whenever a team needs one.