PDA

View Full Version : Danks update


Sockinchisox
08-12-2008, 04:41 PM
Quotes from his dad saying if they don't get what they want then Danks will return to Texas.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2008/08/12/danks_could_ret.html

turners56
08-12-2008, 04:56 PM
2nd round money for a 7th round pick eh? Pay him...he looks like he has great potential. He was supposed to be picked earlier anyhow right?

LoveYourSuit
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
I don't understand why daddy has to mouth off sounding like a turd.

Let the agent do the job Dad.

35th and Shields
08-12-2008, 05:03 PM
Quotes from his dad saying if they don't get what they want then Danks will return to Texas.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2008/08/12/danks_could_ret.html

i really don't like the sound of that

Daver
08-12-2008, 05:05 PM
Let him go back to Texas and take the compensatory pick next year.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Let him go back to Texas and take the compensatory pick next year.

I don't think the Sox would get compensation for a 7th rounder not signing.

Daver
08-12-2008, 05:09 PM
I don't think the Sox would get compensation for a 7th rounder not signing.

Then let him go back to Texas with nothing. I don't think he'll amount to much more than an average at best player anyway.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-12-2008, 05:09 PM
I don't have any problem with what his father said. I think it's called posturing. He's laying out their side of the bargaining position, and we're only hearing his side.

The fact that the writer states that Jordan Danks was the best defensive outfielder in the draft likely does not move the Sox much. They already have one of those. They want a centerfielder who can also get on base at a .300 clip and steal bases.

The question is: can Jordan Danks hit major league pitching? His career at Texas so far has been less than expectations for him.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 05:12 PM
Then let him go back to Texas with nothing. I don't think he'll amount to much more than an average at best player anyway.

Yeah, I agree. No big deal if he doesn't sign.

California Sox
08-12-2008, 05:13 PM
Let him go back to Texas and take the compensatory pick next year.

There is no compensatory pick for a 7th rounder.

We didn't have a second-round pick, and this guy is a second-round talent. He fired Boras to make it easier on us. Maybe we want him, maybe we don't, but if we didn't want to pay for him, why draft him? It's possible everything is just posturing at this point but the $500,000 or whatever it would cost to sign him is less than we're paying MacDougal to blow at Charlotte.

When you've got the worst farm system in the game, it pays to make the extra effort and try to get a couple of players in there.

Rockabilly
08-12-2008, 05:14 PM
As long as we sign Gordon, than I don't have a problem with Jordan going back to Texas but I hope sign both so we can get our minor league system back on track

2906
08-12-2008, 05:14 PM
They need to infuse talent into the system. Even if Jordan Danks doesn't amount to much in the long run, he will still have value 12, 18, even 24 months from now. Meaning, trade value. Yes, it would be nice if he'd develop into a productive major leaguer for the White Sox. But he's an asset. Potential with a capital P and a lot of tools that haven't totally blossomed.

It sounds like they are close on money. It'd be dumb to play hardball and not get this guy signed at this point.

California Sox
08-12-2008, 05:18 PM
My point is, if the Sox think he's no good, why draft him? Twice.

I think he'll never be the player scouts thought he'd be, but he can be a Von Hayes-type player. Not that bad.

btrain929
08-12-2008, 05:19 PM
What is "2nd round money" considered? 500,000$? If that's the case, pony up. We can't be that far off. I hope we're not offering him 120,000 or something like that.....

I agree with the point that everyone knows he has talent, and if he doesn't work out for us, he still will have some trade value down the road. This is a good investment IMO

delben91
08-12-2008, 05:21 PM
Maybe the Sox no longer want Jordan after seeing how horrible John pitched last night (surely starting off the imminent downward spiral in his young career). :?:

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Then let him go back to Texas with nothing. I don't think he'll amount to much more than an average at best player anyway.

Having never seen him play....

How does his style/tools/upside compare to, say, that of Rocco Baldelli, Josh Hamilton, Grady Sizemore?

Thanks.

2906
08-12-2008, 05:34 PM
I think this will get done.

The flip side to Papa Danks argument is it puts a ton of pressure on Jordan if he doesn't sign. He'd need a really good senior season to get drafted highly, and even then he'd lose quite a bit of leverage, unless he wants to go play independent ball.

2nd round money, or close to it, could very well be as good as he'll get. Papa Danks said the offer was "slightly below" what they discussed on draft day. I find it hard to believe all parties concerned would let a deal for roughly 1/2 million dollars blow up over "slightly".

It is very likely other teams passed on this kid because they knew he (and the father) expected 2nd round money. If other teams thought he was worth it, they'd have taken him in Round 2 (or 3,4,5,6). That didn't happen. The leverage the family has is him going back for his sr. season at Texas. Apparently part of that leverage in their mind is he'll improve on his draft position and get his degree. Well he'd likely get the degree but I'm not so sure on improving the draft position. Seems like a lot of pressure for the kid.

Not to mention Jordan is anxious to get going and turn pro, the father admits it. Again, I find it hard to believe this won't get done. Then again, this is what happens when you draft players who have higher expectations than slot, and/or higher expectations of their relative worth. They take longer to sign, it goes down to the wire, barbs are traded and it's not pretty.

Daver
08-12-2008, 05:36 PM
Having never seen him play....

How does his style/tools/upside compare to, say, that of Rocco Baldelli, Josh Hamilton, Grady Sizemore?

Thanks.

Think Brian Anderson, but not quite as good a defender, without Brian's power. On a good day he has WTP.

KRS1
08-12-2008, 05:44 PM
Think Brian Anderson, but not quite as good a defender, without Brian's power. On a good day he has WTP.

Well, he's got slightly better wheels and much better base stealing ability than BA. He also has a better/smoother swing than Brian. As far as power goes, no, he hasn't done it in college which is why he has fallen so far from his HS days as it was his #1 asset. However, I think he can be a 15 or so guy in the bigs, which is pretty much BA power exactly. I think he projects to more of a leadoff hitter right now as a ceiling, which isn't exciting for a guy advertised like he was but it's always nice to have those prospects. Good fielding guy who will hit for average and steal some bags, sounds like a guy to take a chance on. That or we could spend the 500-750k on a utility man.

btrain929
08-12-2008, 05:45 PM
Well, he's got slightly better wheels and much better base stealing ability than BA. He also has a better/smoother swing than Brian. As far as power goes, no, he hasn't done it in college which is why he has fallen so far from his HS days as it was his #1 asset. However, I think he can be a 15 or so guy in the bigs, which is pretty much BA power exactly. I think he projects to more of a leadoff hitter right now as a ceiling, which isn't exciting for a guy advertised like he was but it's always nice to have those prospects. Good fielding guy who will hit for average and steal some bags, sounds like a guy to take a chance on. That or we could spend the 500-750k on a utility man.

So offensively, a watered down Brian Roberts who plays the OF?

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 05:48 PM
They need to infuse talent into the system. Even if Jordan Danks doesn't amount to much in the long run, he will still have value 12, 18, even 24 months from now. Meaning, trade value. Yes, it would be nice if he'd develop into a productive major leaguer for the White Sox. But he's an asset. Potential with a capital P and a lot of tools that haven't totally blossomed.

It sounds like they are close on money. It'd be dumb to play hardball and not get this guy signed at this point.
Totally agree. It's not that we're hurting for young, home-grown talent, it's that our farm system is hurting for value. We need pieces to trade. Kenny builds his teams through FA and trade anyway, so whether or not Jordan Danks becomes anything really isn't important right now.

If say Danks at $750K is the difference between a productive veteran who costs $9M/yr through free agency and an equally productive player who can be acquired through trade at $5M/yr, then you're talking about spending a small amount now to save millions in the future which can help to improve the quality of the team.

I have no idea why the Sox don't spend more money to build up their farm system. Just look at some of the smart signings and trades that Kenny has been able to make so far, and then think about what he'd be able to do if he had a farm system as deep as the Angels. When Kenny first took over he had a deep system too, and he helped to drain it, but he's become a much better GM since then, and if he had the chance to make more moves I think we'd have a great team for a long time.

2906
08-12-2008, 05:53 PM
Well, he's got slightly better wheels and much better base stealing ability than BA. He also has a better/smoother swing than Brian. As far as power goes, no, he hasn't done it in college which is why he has fallen so far from his HS days as it was his #1 asset. However, I think he can be a 15 or so guy in the bigs, which is pretty much BA power exactly. I think he projects to more of a leadoff hitter right now as a ceiling, which isn't exciting for a guy advertised like he was but it's always nice to have those prospects. Good fielding guy who will hit for average and steal some bags, sounds like a guy to take a chance on. That or we could spend the 500-750k on a utility man.

To add to this, he is also known as having a very good batting eye, he will draw walks. He's a gap hitter sort of like Ryan Sweeney and actually they have a similar batting stroke. Maybe his power will develop and maybe it won't, but the speed, batting eye, and defensive abilities scream get this deal done, to me anyway.

doublem23
08-12-2008, 05:54 PM
Then let him go back to Texas with nothing. I don't think he'll amount to much more than an average at best player anyway.

Says the guy who declared Kris Honel better than Mike Mussina (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14792&highlight=Honel+Mussina).

Sorry, had to bust your chops about that. :cool:

KRS1
08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
To add to this, he is also known as having a very good batting eye, he will draw walks. He's a gap hitter sort of like Ryan Sweeney and actually they have a similar batting stroke. Maybe his power will develop and maybe it won't, but the speed, batting eye, and defensive abilities scream get this deal done, to me anyway.

I look at the season Ryan is having right now, and that's what I see in Jordan pretty much exactly with more steals and the ability to play very good D in CF. A bigger park and a better hitting coach did wonders for Ryan.

Daver
08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
To add to this, he is also known as having a very good batting eye, he will draw walks. He's a gap hitter sort of like Ryan Sweeney and actually they have a similar batting stroke. Maybe his power will develop and maybe it won't, but the speed, batting eye, and defensive abilities scream get this deal done, to me anyway.

Sounds like Jeremy Reed, where is he again?

I'm not saying don't sign him, I'm saying don't overpay to sign him.

2906
08-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Sounds like Jeremy Reed, where is he again?

I'm not saying don't sign him, I'm saying don't overpay to sign him.

Also sounds like Ryan Sweeney who isn't doing that badly.

He projects to stay in CF, he can steal bases, a good batting eye, hits for contact, good defensive skills, possibly a future #2 or even #1 hitter. How long have the White Sox needed a home grown guy like that, I would say quite a while.

Again, I think they will get this done. Technically they are already overpaying, if they are offering close to 2nd round money, seeing as he was picked in the 7th round. So at this point they need to find a way to get it done and if it means ponying up a bit more, this is a guy to do it with.

Then again, it's not our money.

KRS1
08-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Sounds like Jeremy Reed, where is he again?

I'm not saying don't sign him, I'm saying don't overpay to sign him.

Honestly, as far as comparisons to Sox prospects go, He is much closer to Sweeney than he is to either BA or Reed. You have to take a chance some time on one of these guys Daver, or you can keep tossing out what happened to guys in the past from our system as comparisons and say it isn't worth it. Bottom line, he isn't Reed, BA, or even Sweeney, and you have to move on from them and keep taking chances on good young guys to take the next step forward for our minor league system.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
Think Brian Anderson, but not quite as good a defender, without Brian's power. On a good day he has WTP.

So we're talking Ryan Sweeney here?

balke
08-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Says the guy who declared Kris Honel better than Mike Mussina (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14792&highlight=Honel+Mussina).

Sorry, had to bust your chops about that. :cool:

To be fair, Honel was going to be awesome.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 06:11 PM
Says the guy who declared Kris Honel better than Mike Mussina (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14792&highlight=Honel+Mussina).

:cool:


I don't think it's entirely fair as Honel, IIRC, never got the chance to pitch above AA due to career-ending arm injuries. (And, to a much lesser extent, due to his poor attitude)

It's like saying that Jon Rauch was never any good... when in fact he's lucky to be pitching at all with his labrum, rotator cuff issues.

KRS1
08-12-2008, 06:12 PM
One more thing. He would immediately be a top 10 prospect in our system with a very good chance to be in the top 5, and that just tells me we should just spend the extra 100k or so to bring him into the fold.

Daver
08-12-2008, 06:24 PM
So we're talking Ryan Sweeney here?

Sweeney was more a corner outfielder, and in a pinch he could pitch.

Daver
08-12-2008, 06:28 PM
Honestly, as far as comparisons to Sox prospects go, He is much closer to Sweeney than he is to either BA or Reed. You have to take a chance some time on one of these guys Daver, or you can keep tossing out what happened to guys in the past from our system as comparisons and say it isn't worth it. Bottom line, he isn't Reed, BA, or even Sweeney, and you have to move on from them and keep taking chances on good young guys to take the next step forward for our minor league system.

The point is, he's not a HS pick like Sweeney, when he struggles to adjust to professional pitching this organization will write him off, they don't develop talent well.

And it doesn't take much to be a top ten prospect in the Sox farm system, when Beckham signs he will be their number one prospect.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 06:30 PM
Sweeney was more a corner outfielder, and in a pinch he could pitch.

Young Steve Finley, then?

It's a crapshoot either way, especially the way Sox "develop" talent.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 06:34 PM
Young Steve Finley, then?

It's a crapshoot either way, especially the way Sox "develop" talent.
Hopefully that is changing. Brining in Buddy Bell and dumping Wilder and a couple of other *******s should do nothing but help, but I'm sure more changes will be coming and it will be a few years before we see any results. In the mean time, I'd like to see the Sox spend some more money to acquire assets through the international market and the draft that they can trade for veteran players. I'm hoping the Alexei Ramirez signing leads to taking a chance on at least one of the recent Cuban defectors.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-12-2008, 06:36 PM
One reason to make Jordan Danks happy is to make John Danks happy. Let's say they have to overpay their expectations and budget for a guy they drafted in the 7th round, they may get it back and then some by being able to get brother John to sign a long-term contract at a favorable price since the Sox have been so "good to the Danks family."

That may be a bit of a stretch, but you never know what will happen a couple of years down the road during future bargaining of contracts. I would want the Danks family to think they are part of the Sox family and have him re-up with the Sox.

I love John Danks as a future star of the Sox staff, and I want to see him stay a long time. Whether Jordan pans out or not is my secondary concern here. It would be a big bonus if he does.

KRS1
08-12-2008, 06:44 PM
The point is, he's not a HS pick like Sweeney, when he struggles to adjust to professional pitching this organization will write him off, they don't develop talent well.

And it doesn't take much to be a top ten prospect in the Sox farm system, when Beckham signs he will be their number one prospect.

The point is that he's 22 and has incredible genes and talent for the game. Like I said, you can keep bringing up instances of the past, but he is isn't even close to the players you compare him to, and even if he were, his name is Jordan Danks, not Brian Anderson. Everyone is inevitably compared to someone, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do so when trying to gauge their career potential, but you can't say "I won't spend the extra $X because of what happened to X, Y, and Z." You have to keep plugging away and taking the chances to add a top 5 or so prospect whenever you can. Regardless of how easy it is to make our top 10, the fact is that adding players to that list only makes us better and stronger as an organization.

As far as us writing off prospects, I think we (the fans) do that more than the organization. The organization just mishandles them. With the new cast in charge or our system, it would be nice to start anew with a different approach to by taking the calculated risks the successful teams (minor leagues) are. Me, I'd spend the 750k any day to add potential over adding another Cintron or the like and call it a good calculated risk for my organization.

Domeshot17
08-12-2008, 06:45 PM
ehhh, Jordan Danks is never going to make it. The guy has no power, doesn't hit for a great average (and before people start talking the .320s, this is College, were most of the better hitters hit at a .345 or better clip, the really good ones upper .300s). He is fast, he plays good D, but he isn't anything special. He wasn't even looking like a top 10 round pick until Kenny drafted him, and mostly because hes been chasing him for years and you know how Kenny doesn't give up on people.

Daver
08-12-2008, 06:50 PM
As far as us writing off prospects, I think we (the fans) do that more than the organization. The organization just mishandles them.

They do both, I hope Buddy Bell is serious about turning it around, but it will only happen if they make serious changes from the top down. I get better info on Sox prospects from the Twins scout I know that lives locally than I do from the three Sox scouts I occasionally see at Providence games.

credefan19
08-12-2008, 06:51 PM
no way, let him go to texas

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 07:07 PM
They do both, I hope Buddy Bell is serious about turning it around, but it will only happen if they make serious changes from the top down. .

Yep.

It would recquire some degree of organizational overhaul & some real $$$ committment by JR and Co... especially in Latin America.

(the usual short-cuts, band-aids, temporary grafts that are favored by quite a few, mostly losing organizations, including the Sox... will all fail in the long-term.)

jabrch
08-12-2008, 08:28 PM
I'd love to get him. Right now, both sides are posturing. I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If we don't get him, maybe that means we have more money to spend elsewhere and Weaver signs?

Either way - both sides are posturing - we will hear a lot over the next 72 hours.

champagne030
08-12-2008, 08:44 PM
There is no compensatory pick for a 7th rounder.

We didn't have a second-round pick, and this guy is a second-round talent. He fired Boras to make it easier on us. Maybe we want him, maybe we don't, but if we didn't want to pay for him, why draft him? It's possible everything is just posturing at this point but the $500,000 or whatever it would cost to sign him is less than we're paying MacDougal to blow at Charlotte.

When you've got the worst farm system in the game, it pays to make the extra effort and try to get a couple of players in there.

He looked better as a HS senior, but the cupboard is bare and we did draft him twice so there's something they (Kenny) like. Maybe Kenny would have a buck to spend if we didn't pick his son too early.

Sockinchisox
08-13-2008, 12:27 AM
Update #2: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080812-jordan-john-danks-chicago-white-sox,1,4513659.story

Sox and Danks' agent will talk tomorrow to try and get a deal done.

It also mentions Beckham is still unsigned.

oeo
08-13-2008, 01:39 AM
He looked better as a HS senior, but the cupboard is bare and we did draft him twice so there's something they (Kenny) like. Maybe Kenny would have a buck to spend if we didn't pick his son too early.

How long do these lame jokes go on until you get bored of them?

doublem23
08-13-2008, 03:28 AM
How long do these lame jokes go on until you get bored of them?

Never. Now that KW has again proven himself to be an above average General Manager, the haters need to grasp onto the straws.

khan
08-13-2008, 11:48 AM
I say get him signed. With the way the Sox's minor league system is now, we need only look at how Detroit turned their fortunes around just a few years ago.

A few years back, Detroit had neither talent on the big league club, nor much in the minors. But by overpaying [somewhat] for a few draft picks, they were able to re-stock their system quickly. Setting aside their FA gambles with the big club, their having pieces to trade off their minor league system netted them Cabrera and Willis in trade.

I can envision Kenny being able to swing deals of a similar ilk, IF he has the pieces to send the other way. So even IF Jordan Danks won't become a solid major leaguer, he'll be valuable in trade until the rest of the world figures that out. Get Danks signed, if only to be able to move him along for someone more proven. Our big club is laden with aging DH/1B types, and every piece that we can add can only be of benefit to the entire puzzle.

As it stands, The Immortal Josh Fields and his boatload of strikeouts and his inept fielding ability stand as one of the only moveable assets in the system.

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Never. Now that KW has again proven himself to be an above average General Manager, the haters need to grasp onto the straws.

I think KW is a great GM. However, his short-coming thus far has been the draft (and KWJr looks like a complete reach). To be fair, I think KW realizes our drafts have been bad to very bad and has taken some pretty drastic steps to change this.

The saving grace for this organization is that KW seems great at scouting other team's minor league and major league rosters to get great value while at the same time is pretty damn good at evaluating our own players to trade (and seeing they aren't as good as hyped)...McCarthy, Reed, Sweeney (yes him...he is a poor man's Koske Fukudome with worse defense), Chris Young (strikes out a ton and can't hit for average)...the problem is that he drafted a lot of these "overhyped" prospects in the first place.

AzureJazzMan
08-13-2008, 12:50 PM
The saving grace for this organization is that KW seems great at scouting other team's minor league and major league rosters to get great value while at the same time is pretty damn good at evaluating our own players to trade (and seeing they aren't as good as hyped)...McCarthy, Reed, Sweeney (yes him...he is a poor man's Koske Fukudome with worse defense), Chris Young (strikes out a ton and can't hit for average)...the problem is that he drafted a lot of these "overhyped" prospects in the first place.

Don't you all get it? That is the genius, that is Kenny Williams!!!! He knows exactly who to draft, in order to build them up enough to trade them, knowing full well they will suck, in order to get the other guys who were drafted and not have to deal with signing them!!! It's so simple, that is what's so brilliant about it!!! No one ever sees it coming!!! :upsidehead:

Rockabilly
08-13-2008, 03:05 PM
Jim Callis believes the Sox will sign Beckham and Danks...

He also mention by late next season Beckham and Alexei will be our starting Middle INF

btrain929
08-13-2008, 03:14 PM
Jim Callis believes the Sox will sign Beckham and Danks...

He also mention by late next season Beckham and Alexei will be our starting Middle INF

God I find that hard to believe, but if we realistically can have TCQ, Alexei, Beckham, Danks, Floyd, Swisher (if he performs respectably in coming years), that is a good, young, and talented core of players that will be here for a long time and help us free up a lot of money to bring in FA's at other positions (CF, SP, 3B, 1B/DH), etc.

Rockabilly
08-13-2008, 03:17 PM
God I find that hard to believe, but if we realistically can have TCQ, Alexei, Beckham, Danks, Floyd, Swisher (if he performs respectably in coming years), that is a good, young, and talented core of players that will be here for a long time and help us free up a lot of money to bring in FA's at other positions (CF, SP, 3B, 1B/DH), etc.


I still have hope for Fields. I agree with you it looks like we are going to have a nice young team for many years

also I think Getz, Poerda will have nice careers as well

btrain929
08-13-2008, 03:23 PM
I still have hope for Fields. I agree with you it looks like we are going to have a nice young team for many years

also I think Getz, Poerda will have nice careers as well

I doubt we could get this lucky, but if we could have Getz at 2B, Alexei at SS, and Beckham at 3B, that would be best case scenario. But that is definitely setting the bar high.

I think Fields, Poreda, Shelby, J.Martinez, Ely, etc will be used to bring in a SP or a CF'er. If Poreda can come up with 2 solid offspeed pitches, he could be a force in our rotation for years to come as well since he pounds the bottom of the strikezone. But, time will only tell. For the meantime, we can only hope Getz continues to do well in the opportunities that are given to him, and Fields tears up AAA in spite of hardly playing when he was up here, then promptly being sent down.

soxball14
08-14-2008, 07:55 AM
My guy in PR that told me about Beckham signing on Tuesday, just told me that Danks has agreed to

munchman33
08-14-2008, 08:31 AM
Never. Now that KW has again proven himself to be an above average General Manager, the haters need to grasp onto the straws.

Above average in the sense he's had one playoff team in his entire tenure?

I don't disagree he's done a decent job and 2005 was great...but there's been just as much bad as good.

2906
08-14-2008, 08:51 AM
My guy in PR that told me about Beckham signing on Tuesday, just told me that Danks has agreed to

Agreed to a contract? I presume you meant "agreed too"?

cws05champ
08-14-2008, 09:04 AM
My guy in PR that told me about Beckham signing on Tuesday, just told me that Danks has agreed to

Let's hope Danks signing is true as well.... Good job on getting on here and giving us the scoop!!!

cards press box
08-14-2008, 09:10 AM
Above average in the sense he's had one playoff team in his entire tenure?

I don't disagree he's done a decent job and 2005 was great...but there's been just as much bad as good.

Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin? Signing Alexei Ramirez? That's way better than decent. Indeed, moves like those are just excellent work. Ken Williams has done many more good (and great) moves than poor ones.

spawn
08-14-2008, 09:15 AM
Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin? Signing Alexei Ramirez? That's way better than decent. Indeed, moves like those are just excellent work. Ken Williams has done many more good (and great) moves than poor ones.
You forget that he's still pissed off KW traded future HOF'er Faustino de los Santos.

doublem23
08-14-2008, 09:40 AM
Above average in the sense he's had one playoff team in his entire tenure?

I don't disagree he's done a decent job and 2005 was great...but there's been just as much bad as good.

This isn't the NBA, only 4 teams in the American League make the post-season every year. The Sox have been competitive for pretty much KW's entire tenure. He's assembled a play-off quality team in 2003 that was torpedoed by his lame duck manager, in 2004 that went down to 2 critical injuries, and in 2006 the Sox had the best record of any team not in the post-season.

:dunno:

I think that's an above average resume; I didn't say great or excellent, just better than average.

Sox record since 2001, KW's 1st season at the helm:

2001: 83-79, 2002: 81-81, 2003: 86-77, 2004: 83-79, 2005: 99-63, 2006: 90-72, 2007: 72-90, 2008: 67-52... Total: 661-593 (.527)

soxball14
08-14-2008, 10:59 AM
Yes Danks has agreed.

sox1970
08-14-2008, 11:04 AM
Yes Danks has agreed.

Terms?

UofCSoxFan
08-14-2008, 11:13 AM
Above average in the sense he's had one playoff team in his entire tenure?

I don't disagree he's done a decent job and 2005 was great...but there's been just as much bad as good.

You act like this team was perranial playoff contendor for years before Kenny got here. We had a good team in 2001, some good teams in the early 90s and 80s and a whole lot of crap for a long time before that.

KW has put on playoff calliber teams every year he's been here, with the possible exception of last year. When the team failed last year, he turned it around in one offseason. As someone pointed out, in 2006 he improved a World Series team and we fell just short, mostly b/c Detroit and Cleveland were really good. In other years we missed the playoffs due to injuries and/or guys having historially bad years....not exactly Kenny's fault.

btrain929
08-14-2008, 12:23 PM
Yes Danks has agreed.

Ummm, any other info?

munchman33
08-14-2008, 01:10 PM
This isn't the NBA, only 4 teams in the American League make the post-season every year. The Sox have been competitive for pretty much KW's entire tenure. He's assembled a play-off quality team in 2003 that was torpedoed by his lame duck manager, in 2004 that went down to 2 critical injuries, and in 2006 the Sox had the best record of any team not in the post-season.

:dunno:

I think that's an above average resume; I didn't say great or excellent, just better than average.

Sox record since 2001, KW's 1st season at the helm:

2001: 83-79, 2002: 81-81, 2003: 86-77, 2004: 83-79, 2005: 99-63, 2006: 90-72, 2007: 72-90, 2008: 67-52... Total: 661-593 (.527)

For many of his first years, the AL Central was also known as the comedy central. People forget that we played crap competion alot and still came up empty. While you're right that it's easy in baseball to miss the postseason, Kenny has had any easeir path than most more often than not.

Our lack of tradable farm assets is his fault. That's a big negative.

He's made a number of dubious trades in his tenure as well. You can't just look at the good and says he's a good GM. He's an average GM. He hits big, but he misses just as big and just as often.

doublem23
08-14-2008, 01:12 PM
He's made a number of dubious trades in his tenure as well. You can't just look at the good and says he's a good GM. He's an average GM. He hits big, but he misses just as big and just as often.

Yeah, but many of his big misses were earlier in his tenure. He's gotten better as he's gone.

Oh, and:

http://homerderby.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2005-white-sox.jpg

munchman33
08-14-2008, 01:54 PM
Yeah, but many of his big misses were earlier in his tenure. He's gotten better as he's gone.

Oh, and:

http://homerderby.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2005-white-sox.jpg

The picture didn't show. But I'm sure it's not so nice. :cool:

He made the worst trade of his career last offseason.

doublem23
08-14-2008, 01:55 PM
The picture didn't show. But I'm sure it's not so nice. :cool:

He made the worst trade of his career last offseason.

Take 2:

http://cdn.faniq.com/images/photos/photo_large/65/23365-2.jpg

UofCSoxFan
08-14-2008, 02:01 PM
The picture didn't show. But I'm sure it's not so nice. :cool:

He made the worst trade of his career last offseason.

Are you referring to the Quentin deal because the Swisher deal because wasn't that bad?

Swisher is still young and contributing to a first place team. Ryan Sweeney is not a viable corner OF...he has good batting average...that's it. Against lefties his OPS is less than .600 this year which makes Brian Anderson look like Babe Ruth.

DLS had Tommy John Surgery this year....may put a damper on the HOF induction. Gio Gonzalez is 1-1 and is only in the big leagues because the A's have traded away all their good starters.

Give ma a break.

champagne030
08-14-2008, 02:05 PM
Take 2:

http://cdn.faniq.com/images/photos/photo_large/65/23365-2.jpg

Is that's where his last $.50 went? He bought Tommy Thompson's ring on ebay?

California Sox
08-14-2008, 02:45 PM
It's official. Edit: nearly official.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080814&content_id=3307534&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

oeo
08-14-2008, 02:46 PM
Is that's where his last $.50 went? He bought Tommy Thompson's ring on ebay?

Damn, has anyone ever told you how funny you are?

Find a new joke, this one's old.

palehozenychicty
08-14-2008, 02:46 PM
Are you referring to the Quentin deal because the Swisher deal because wasn't that bad?

Swisher is still young and contributing to a first place team. Ryan Sweeney is not a viable corner OF...he has good batting average...that's it. Against lefties his OPS is less than .600 this year which makes Brian Anderson look like Babe Ruth.

DLS had Tommy John Surgery this year....may put a damper on the HOF induction. Gio Gonzalez is 1-1 and is only in the big leagues because the A's have traded away all their good starters.

Give ma a break.


Swisher looks like nothing more than a thinner Giambi, and his track record mirrors that. He's a marketable franchise presence, but has few strengths other than OBP and declining power at 27. You can't use the youth excuse with Swisher, then declare that Sweeney can't hit. Sweeney's had a tenth of the ABs, and he's a few years younger than Swisher. I'm not saying that he'll become a good player, but the youth line is lame. I would've kept Gonzalez out of the three players given to Oakland, but it's a moot point.

Sockinchisox
08-14-2008, 02:54 PM
It's official. Edit: nearly official.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080814&content_id=3307534&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Very good news.

doublem23
08-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Is that's where his last $.50 went? He bought Tommy Thompson's ring on ebay?

:deadhorse:

UofCSoxFan
08-14-2008, 05:09 PM
Swisher looks like nothing more than a thinner Giambi, and his track record mirrors that. He's a marketable franchise presence, but has few strengths other than OBP and declining power at 27. You can't use the youth excuse with Swisher, then declare that Sweeney can't hit. Sweeney's had a tenth of the ABs, and he's a few years younger than Swisher. I'm not saying that he'll become a good player, but the youth line is lame. I would've kept Gonzalez out of the three players given to Oakland, but it's a moot point.

So I don't know that you read my post at all. I wasn't mentioning Swisher's youth as an excuse for what you perceive as a poor year, but rather as an asset. He's just entering his prime. As far as his declining power, he'll still end up with over 20 home runs this year. He's between a 20 and 30 HR guy...I don't know what you expected from him.

I like how you say he has "few strengths beyound OBP." Like OBP isn't a huge measure of a hitter. He also has the highest pitches per AB in baseball, he can play all 3 OF positions and first base. Those are also strengths.

Honestly I think Swisher has been solid this year. He's never been a high batting average guy. He was forced to bat leadoff, which undboubtedly led to what you call "declining power" and had to adjust to a physically demanding defensive position.

I will not lose any sleep over Sweeney. He will not become a star. DLS could still be good but is already damaged goods. Gio has been traded 3 times already, which should tell you something.

Bottom line, without that trade, you go into the season relying on an injured and unproven Carlos Quinten, Jermaine Dye, Brian Anderson, and Jerry Owens as your OF. Not exactly a good thing.

Frater Perdurabo
08-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Good to read that Jordan Danks reportedly signed with the Sox. Let's hope he's either good enough to play for the Sox, or he's good enough that another team would send a quality player back to the Sox to get him.

Sockinchisox
08-14-2008, 10:46 PM
Danks' father confirms he has signed and will take a physical on Monday, after he passes that, he'll be put in Kanny.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2008/08/14/danks_signs.html

munchman33
08-15-2008, 02:27 AM
So I don't know that you read my post at all. I wasn't mentioning Swisher's youth as an excuse for what you perceive as a poor year, but rather as an asset. He's just entering his prime. As far as his declining power, he'll still end up with over 20 home runs this year. He's between a 20 and 30 HR guy...I don't know what you expected from him.

I like how you say he has "few strengths beyound OBP." Like OBP isn't a huge measure of a hitter. He also has the highest pitches per AB in baseball, he can play all 3 OF positions and first base. Those are also strengths.

Honestly I think Swisher has been solid this year. He's never been a high batting average guy. He was forced to bat leadoff, which undboubtedly led to what you call "declining power" and had to adjust to a physically demanding defensive position.

I will not lose any sleep over Sweeney. He will not become a star. DLS could still be good but is already damaged goods. Gio has been traded 3 times already, which should tell you something.

Bottom line, without that trade, you go into the season relying on an injured and unproven Carlos Quinten, Jermaine Dye, Brian Anderson, and Jerry Owens as your OF. Not exactly a good thing.

Forget Sweeney. Both DLS and Gio had MORE value than Swisher before the trade. A straight up trade for either would have been a loss.

Now, Gio and Sweeney certainly have more value. DLS probably still does, in that paying next nothing for an injured young player is better than paying six million for a crap player who'll never be more than a career bench guy.

35th and Shields
08-15-2008, 02:58 AM
Bottom line, without that trade, you go into the season relying on an injured and unproven Carlos Quinten, Jermaine Dye, Brian Anderson, and Jerry Owens as your OF. Not exactly a good thing.

Good point especially when we had no idea if Dye would even hit well this year.

Chilli Palmer
08-15-2008, 03:05 AM
Forget Sweeney. Both DLS and Gio had MORE value than Swisher before the trade. A straight up trade for either would have been a loss.

Now, Gio and Sweeney certainly have more value. DLS probably still does, in that paying next nothing for an injured young player is better than paying six million for a crap player who'll never be more than a career bench guy.

You make me wanna puke.

Jeff B
08-15-2008, 05:27 AM
You make me wanna puke.
Haha, yeah that was pretty much the reaction I had.

CleeFan101
08-15-2008, 05:46 AM
Forget Sweeney. Both DLS and Gio had MORE value than Swisher before the trade. A straight up trade for either would have been a loss.

Now, Gio and Sweeney certainly have more value. DLS probably still does, in that paying next nothing for an injured young player is better than paying six million for a crap player who'll never be more than a career bench guy.

You must really hate Swisher because everything in that post was a lie. Sweeney has no power and long term projects as a corner OF, unless he figures out the power stroke he is nothing but a 4th OF. DLS had major surgery and projected more as a bullpen guy in the long run anyways. Gio might be the one guy we really regret but with his small frame who knows how he will hold up anyways long term.

Swisher is probably having his worse season he ever will for us but has been a valuable asset to the team. He will hit more HR's this year than Sweeney probably ever will. I also think next year Swisher will hit around the .250 mark with 25-30 HR's and an OBP around .380ish

ilsox7
08-15-2008, 08:28 AM
You must really hate Swisher because everything in that post was a lie. Sweeney has no power and long term projects as a corner OF, unless he figures out the power stroke he is nothing but a 4th OF. DLS had major surgery and projected more as a bullpen guy in the long run anyways. Gio might be the one guy we really regret but with his small frame who knows how he will hold up anyways long term.

Swisher is probably having his worse season he ever will for us but has been a valuable asset to the team. He will hit more HR's this year than Sweeney probably ever will. I also think next year Swisher will hit around the .250 mark with 25-30 HR's and an OBP around .380ish

Stop being rational! You're dealing with someone who said that an A ball player had a 50% chance of going to the HOF and the only reason it was such a low chance is b/c of the potential of injury.

CHISOXFAN13
08-15-2008, 09:07 AM
You make me wanna puke.

My ignore list is small, but it just got a little bigger. Everything that comes out of his mouth is negative. He loves the attention.

cws05champ
08-15-2008, 09:33 AM
We now interrupt this cat fight with your regularlly scheduled thread;

Danks bonus at $525K, should report to Kanny on Monday. Great to get him signed, and here's hoping he regains his power stoke.

munchman33
08-15-2008, 09:38 AM
You must really hate Swisher because everything in that post was a lie. Sweeney has no power and long term projects as a corner OF, unless he figures out the power stroke he is nothing but a 4th OF. DLS had major surgery and projected more as a bullpen guy in the long run anyways. Gio might be the one guy we really regret but with his small frame who knows how he will hold up anyways long term.

Swisher is probably having his worse season he ever will for us but has been a valuable asset to the team. He will hit more HR's this year than Sweeney probably ever will. I also think next year Swisher will hit around the .250 mark with 25-30 HR's and an OBP around .380ish

I think people who defend Nick Swisher are funny.

I want the White Sox to win.

2906
08-15-2008, 09:56 AM
We now interrupt this cat fight with your regularlly scheduled thread;

Danks bonus at $525K, should report to Kanny on Monday. Great to get him signed, and here's hoping he regains his power stoke.

Agree on all counts, it will be very interesting to watch him develop. Supposedly he has a very good eye and will draw walks, some base stealing ability, and an overall good skill set. The White Sox need CF candidates/prospects badly so I will be pulling for this kid big time.

On the White Sox site, there was a brief notation that with Danks signing, the Sox signed all 10 of their top 10 picks, so that must mean Leesman signed as well.

I'm trying to find out if they signed another CF prospect, the very speedy Randall Thorpe who they selected down low and was poised to join Texas A+M if he didn't sign.

oeo
08-15-2008, 10:22 AM
On the White Sox site, there was a brief notation that with Danks signing, the Sox signed all 10 of their top 10 picks, so that must mean Leesman signed as well.

Yep, actually got their Top 12 picks signed.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/2008xteam.php?team=1026

UofCSoxFan
08-15-2008, 10:53 AM
Agree on all counts, it will be very interesting to watch him develop. Supposedly he has a very good eye and will draw walks, some base stealing ability, and an overall good skill set. The White Sox need CF candidates/prospects badly so I will be pulling for this kid big time.

On the White Sox site, there was a brief notation that with Danks signing, the Sox signed all 10 of their top 10 picks, so that must mean Leesman signed as well.

I'm trying to find out if they signed another CF prospect, the very speedy Randall Thorpe who they selected down low and was poised to join Texas A+M if he didn't sign.

That's the thing, if he can play in CF, I'm not too conserned about his power...anything more than 10 HR from a CF that can get on base and run is more than enough.

Not that I expect much from him, but I believe Kenny Williams Jr. is a CF prospect as well. Again, I'm not holding my breath there but he's a remote possibility I guess from this draft.

UofCSoxFan
08-15-2008, 11:00 AM
Anyone else pretty excited about this draft and some of the other young players on our team.

Barring trades (which presumably would make us better anyways) 3 or 4 years from now you could have an IF of Beckham, Alexei, Getz, Swisher, (and possibly Morrel, who I like, in the mix somewhere as well), along with TCQ in LF, Danks in CF. That is young and CHEAP. Fill in a high end FA to replace Dye in RF (who probably won't be here 3 or 4 years from now or if he is would be a DH), and you still have money for a C, DH (which possibly could be Fields if develops) and another arm or two to supplement Burls, Danks, and Floyd.

Of course a lot can change, and not all these players will develop, but that has the makings of a very solid young core. Has been awhile since we could have said that.

Domeshot17
08-15-2008, 12:02 PM
Yep, actually got their Top 12 picks signed.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/2008xteam.php?team=1026

I would have loved to get Weaver and Long signed, but both seemed like long shots.

cws05champ
08-15-2008, 12:05 PM
Anyone else pretty excited about this draft and some of the other young players on our team.

Barring trades (which presumably would make us better anyways) 3 or 4 years from now you could have an IF of Beckham, Alexei, Getz, Swisher, (and possibly Morrel, who I like, in the mix somewhere as well), along with TCQ in LF, Danks in CF. That is young and CHEAP. Fill in a high end FA to replace Dye in RF (who probably won't be here 3 or 4 years from now or if he is would be a DH), and you still have money for a C, DH (which possibly could be Fields if develops) and another arm or two to supplement Burls, Danks, and Floyd.

Of course a lot can change, and not all these players will develop, but that has the makings of a very solid young core. Has been awhile since we could have said that.
Agreed, I'm excited about this draft. Mostly to see how Beckham , Danks, Morel and a couple pitcher develop. But as stated a lot could change in a 3-4 year period. Back in 2004 who would/could have imagined a team with Quentin, Dye, OC, TCM, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez. who knows what this team will look like 3 years from now. And even if a few of these guys pan out...it still will not be cheap. If Alexei continues to progress every year, you really think he'll come cheap after his 4 year deal is up? Same goes for Danks, Floyd etc.
Lets hope these guys develop so we have a decent farm system with which to deal from for our 3rd consecutive championship :D:.

btrain929
08-15-2008, 12:18 PM
I would have loved to get Weaver and Long signed, but both seemed like long shots.

Is Weaver officially out of the question?

hellview
08-15-2008, 01:12 PM
I guess you guys are alot more excited about Danks then I am cause I'm looking at his numbers at Texas and I don't see much to get excited over.

50/48 k to bb ratio is pretty average for college ball. If all he can post with a metal bat is a .564 SLG it's not gonna imporve once you put a wood bat in his hand.

I don't even see Danks being anything special and the money could have been spent on better players they let walk.

doublem23
08-15-2008, 01:17 PM
I don't even see Danks being anything special and the money could have been spent on better players they let walk.

If drafting and signing Jordan got his brother to dump Boras as his agent, he's worth every single penny.

btrain929
08-15-2008, 02:04 PM
if drafting and signing jordan got his brother to dump boras as his agent, he's worth every single penny.

+1.

California Sox
08-15-2008, 02:18 PM
I don't have any illusions about Jordan, but for a team that has traded almost every decent hitter we had in the minors (Cunningham, Carter, Sweeney), and has a lot of players down there who are never going to play above AA, getting a player who may be flawed, but at least profiles at the position is a victory.

The guy I'm not too enamored with so far is Morel. You'd almost have to try not to hit for power to hit the way he has, and he doesn't play in the middle of the diamond like Danks and Beckham do. It's early, but short of a move to second, he's starting to profile as an organizational player.

Randar68
08-15-2008, 05:19 PM
I don't have any illusions about Jordan, but for a team that has traded almost every decent hitter we had in the minors (Cunningham, Carter, Sweeney), and has a lot of players down there who are never going to play above AA, getting a player who may be flawed, but at least profiles at the position is a victory.

The guy I'm not too enamored with so far is Morel. You'd almost have to try not to hit for power to hit the way he has, and he doesn't play in the middle of the diamond like Danks and Beckham do. It's early, but short of a move to second, he's starting to profile as an organizational player.

Danks is a very physically gifted player. They spent some cash on him, but in the big scheme of things, not that much... If he pans out, GREAT, if not, it's still good will with John and the family come contract time in a few years... It was a 6th rounder for a guy most admitted was a 2nd or 3rd rounder despite his down year at Texas.

BadBobbyJenks
08-15-2008, 05:36 PM
I think people who defend Nick Swisher are funny.

I want the White Sox to win.

I used to think you were funny, but then I realized this is not a comedy routine and you are serious:o:

...
08-15-2008, 06:04 PM
i used to think you were funny, but then i realized this is not a comedy routine and you are serious:o:
+1

California Sox
08-15-2008, 06:13 PM
Danks is a very physically gifted player. They spent some cash on him, but in the big scheme of things, not that much... If he pans out, GREAT, if not, it's still good will with John and the family come contract time in a few years... It was a 6th rounder for a guy most admitted was a 2nd or 3rd rounder despite his down year at Texas.

Always great to see your comments, Randar. I'd love to see more here on the minor league board.

My point about Jordan is that even if he does not reach his ceiling, a left-handed hitter with speed who walks some and plays an above average center field profiles as a starter in the major leagues.

Hey, he's got to be better than the last guy we drafted from Texas.

btrain929
08-15-2008, 06:54 PM
Always great to see your comments, Randar. I'd love to see more here on the minor league board.

My point about Jordan is that even if he does not reach his ceiling, a left-handed hitter with speed who walks some and plays an above average center field profiles as a starter in the major leagues.

Hey, he's got to be better than the last guy we drafted from Texas.

Cedric Benson?

turners56
08-15-2008, 06:54 PM
Very good news.

Indeed.

pearso66
08-15-2008, 07:13 PM
Forget Sweeney. Both DLS and Gio had MORE value than Swisher before the trade. A straight up trade for either would have been a loss.

Now, Gio and Sweeney certainly have more value. DLS probably still does, in that paying next nothing for an injured young player is better than paying six million for a crap player who'll never be more than a career bench guy.

I think people who defend Nick Swisher are funny.

I want the White Sox to win.

I don't get it, you follow your first statement, with that 2nd. None of those 3 guys would have given the Sox a chance to win this year, Swisher did. I'm all for trading prospects for proven major league players. Sweeney might become a good player, but what's his ceiling? Nick Swisher? As many have said, DLS is injured, but he was also in what? A ball last year? He was a long shot to make it even though he was a top prospect. Gio was the only one I didn't want to trade, but he hasn't been spectacular this year, and as was said earlier, the only reason he's even in the majors this year is because the A's traded all their pitching away. The Sox could use him now that Jose is done, but who's to say he'd be better than Broadway, and even at the time, KW had the rotation set the way he wanted it, and it worked out quite well for the season so far.

Adele_H
08-15-2008, 08:05 PM
Danks is a very physically gifted player. They spent some cash on him, but in the big scheme of things, not that much... If he pans out, GREAT, if not, it's still good will with John and the family come contract time in a few years... It was a 6th rounder for a guy most admitted was a 2nd or 3rd rounder despite his down year at Texas.

Do you think he can be a HOF type player?

munchman33
08-17-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't get it, you follow your first statement, with that 2nd. None of those 3 guys would have given the Sox a chance to win this year, Swisher did. I'm all for trading prospects for proven major league players. Sweeney might become a good player, but what's his ceiling? Nick Swisher? As many have said, DLS is injured, but he was also in what? A ball last year? He was a long shot to make it even though he was a top prospect. Gio was the only one I didn't want to trade, but he hasn't been spectacular this year, and as was said earlier, the only reason he's even in the majors this year is because the A's traded all their pitching away. The Sox could use him now that Jose is done, but who's to say he'd be better than Broadway, and even at the time, KW had the rotation set the way he wanted it, and it worked out quite well for the season so far.

Here. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CHA&batter_sort=B3&pitcher_rsort=VORP This is updated as of today. Nick's VORP (value over replacement player) is 8.2. Meaning at this point of the season, he's produced about 8 more runs total than a borderline everyday centerfielder would. Not per week. For the season.

Now consider VORP does not include defense. Also conisder backup centerfielders usually play good defense, and Nick, well, doesn't.

What that means is we threw three prospects away. Because we could have sent next to nothing to someone for a backup centerfielder (who also shouldn't play everyday) and still had those prospects to keep or include in other deals, and we'd be in similar (if not better) shape.

Instead, we get to pay a backup centerfielder six million dollars next year.

JermaineDye05
08-17-2008, 03:02 PM
Here. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CHA&batter_sort=B3&pitcher_rsort=VORP This is updated as of today. Nick's VORP (value over replacement player) is 8.2. Meaning at this point of the season, he's produced about 8 more runs total than a borderline everyday centerfielder would. Not per week. For the season.

Now consider VORP does not include defense. Also conisder backup centerfielders usually play good defense, and Nick, well, doesn't.

What that means is we threw three prospects away. Because we could have sent next to nothing to someone for a backup centerfielder (who also shouldn't play everyday) and still had those prospects to keep or include in other deals, and we'd be in similar (if not better) shape

Instead, we get to pay a backup centerfielder six million dollars next year.

Nick's having an off year, possibly the adjustment. Also probably because he's playing centerfield which is not his position clearly. He's a first baseman and a backup corner outfielder. If we remember when he was playing first he made some great plays defensively and the batting average started to rise as well. Nick is still fairly young, I would not call him a backup centerfielder. Maybe with the way he's played this season I could see where you're coming from, but I think you forget that he has the potential to hit you 20+ HRs and drive in close to 100 RBI. Not to mention he works pitchers which pays dividends for our lineup. Once Pauly is gone, Swish should be moved to first, and we should find ourselves a real centerfielder who can play good D and hit for a decent average.

I think the MODs should move part of this thread, as this conversation has nothing to do with Jordan Danks :D:.

Daver
08-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Here. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CHA&batter_sort=B3&pitcher_rsort=VORP This is updated as of today. Nick's VORP (value over replacement player) is 8.2. Meaning at this point of the season, he's produced about 8 more runs total than a borderline everyday centerfielder would. Not per week. For the season.

Now consider VORP does not include defense. Also conisder backup centerfielders usually play good defense, and Nick, well, doesn't.

What that means is we threw three prospects away. Because we could have sent next to nothing to someone for a backup centerfielder (who also shouldn't play everyday) and still had those prospects to keep or include in other deals, and we'd be in similar (if not better) shape.

Instead, we get to pay a backup centerfielder six million dollars next year.

Your basing your debate on the nonsensical drivel that is spewed on BP?

Good luck getting anyone that is rational to buy that load of crap.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 03:35 PM
Nick's having an off year, possibly the adjustment. Also probably because he's playing centerfield which is not his position clearly. He's a first baseman and a backup corner outfielder. If we remember when he was playing first he made some great plays defensively and the batting average started to rise as well. Nick is still fairly young, I would not call him a backup centerfielder. Maybe with the way he's played this season I could see where you're coming from, but I think you forget that he has the potential to hit you 20+ HRs and drive in close to 100 RBI. Not to mention he works pitchers which pays dividends for our lineup. Once Pauly is gone, Swish should be moved to first, and we should find ourselves a real centerfielder who can play good D and hit for a decent average.

I think the MODs should move part of this thread, as this conversation has nothing to do with Jordan Danks :D:.


I don't want to imagine his VORP at those positions.

It has everything to do with Jordan, so long as Kenny is GM. It won't be long before he's traded for Mark Kotsay.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 03:37 PM
Your basing your debate on the nonsensical drivel that is spewed on BP?

Good luck getting anyone that is rational to buy that load of crap.

I'm sorry that looking at Nick Swisher's numbers and seeing immediately that he's a bad player doesn't come naturally to a lot of the fanboys around here, so I have to resort to desperate measures.

35th and Shields
08-17-2008, 03:56 PM
I'm sorry that looking at Nick Swisher's numbers and seeing immediately that he's a bad player doesn't come naturally to a lot of the fanboys around here, so I have to resort to desperate measures.

We get it. You don't like Swisher and you think Kenny is bad GM. You don't need to bring it up on every single thread.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 04:17 PM
I'm sorry that looking at Nick Swisher's numbers and seeing immediately that he's a bad player doesn't come naturally to a lot of the fanboys around here, so I have to resort to desperate measures.
Please don't attempt statistical analysis. You are horrendous at it.

If you truly believe Gio Gonzalez had more value than Nick Swisher...well...well I just don't know what to say.

Daver
08-17-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm sorry that looking at Nick Swisher's numbers and seeing immediately that he's a bad player doesn't come naturally to a lot of the fanboys around here, so I have to resort to desperate measures.

By using a theory that has no basis in fact or reality?

Britt Burns
08-17-2008, 05:22 PM
Do you think he can be a HOF type player?

I don't think any scout worth his or her salt would project someone as a HOFer. Danks has a shot at being a very good player, with an upside somewhere in the JD Drew range.

UofCSoxFan
08-17-2008, 06:24 PM
I'm sorry that looking at Nick Swisher's numbers and seeing immediately that he's a bad player doesn't come naturally to a lot of the fanboys around here, so I have to resort to desperate measures.

Your boy Gio looked like **** today.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 06:42 PM
Please don't attempt statistical analysis. You are horrendous at it.

If you truly believe Gio Gonzalez had more value than Nick Swisher...well...well I just don't know what to say.

No...at the time of the trade their value was about equal. As in one for one. Now Gio has more value.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Your boy Gio looked like **** today.

If I did that for Nick Swisher, I'd do it 145 times this season.

...
08-17-2008, 06:55 PM
If I did that for Nick Swisher, I'd do it 145 times this season.
144 times. Remember the game winning 3-run bomb a few weeks ago? Swish 1 - Gio 0.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:00 PM
144 times. Remember the game winning 3-run bomb a few weeks ago? Swish 1 - Gio 0.


And how many games is he responsible for losing? How many close games did we lose because we didn't have a better bat or a better glove in center?

Gio has more value than Swisher even if he tanks the rest of the year. Teams already know what Swisher is, and it isn't very good. AND he gets paid $6 million next year. That's a really big AND that people continue to neglect when looking at Swisher's value.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 07:03 PM
No...at the time of the trade their value was about equal. As in one for one. Now Gio has more value.
That is ridiculous. Please explain to me how a starter coming off his second season in AA with a propensity for walks and a small frame has more value than a multi-position player coming off a line of .262/.381/.455 line (playing half of his games in a pitcher's park).

Gio did not have that much value. That's ridiculous. He certainly doesn't have it now. He's been inconsistent in AAA and can't even locate his fastball.

Nick Swisher meanwhile has a BABIP 46 points lower than last season with almost identical FB/GB/LD rates.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 07:05 PM
And how many games is he responsible for losing? How many close games did we lose because we didn't have a better bat or a better glove in center?

Gio has more value than Swisher even if he tanks the rest of the year. Teams already know what Swisher is, and it isn't very good. AND he gets paid $6 million next year. That's a really big AND that people continue to neglect when looking at Swisher's value.
What do you think is more indicative of Swisher's performance -- 2006-07 or 2008?

I'd say one is the obvious outlier, especially when examining the statistics.

You of course want to put all your eggs in the 2008 basket, as it fits your agenda better.

Daver
08-17-2008, 07:08 PM
Gio has more value than Swisher even if he tanks the rest of the year. Teams already know what Swisher is, and it isn't very good. AND he gets paid $6 million next year. That's a really big AND that people continue to neglect when looking at Swisher's value.

Bringing payroll into the discussion of the impossible comparison between a position player and a starting pitcher does little more than emphasize your ignorance of the business of baseball.

Please continue, this is amusing as hell.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:09 PM
That is ridiculous. Please explain to me how a starter coming off his second season in AA with a propensity for walks and a small frame has more value than a multi-position player coming off a line of .262/.381/.455 line (playing half of his games in a pitcher's park).

Gio did not have that much value. That's ridiculous. He certainly doesn't have it now. He's been inconsistent in AAA and can't even locate his fastball.

Nick Swisher meanwhile has a BABIP 46 points lower than last season with almost identical FB/GB/LD rates.

Because Nick is not a CF. If he was that line would fly. But he's a LF/1B. And that line is pretty average, at best.

Gio has talent and an arm. That alone gives him value. Pitching prospects have more value nowadays than anything else. Especially more than average MLB players. And double especially more than former average MLB players. But you already know that.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:12 PM
What do you think is more indicative of Swisher's performance -- 2006-07 or 2008?

I'd say one is the obvious outlier, especially when examining the statistics.

You of course want to put all your eggs in the 2008 basket, as it fits your agenda better.

Neither. I think he's somewhere between '07 and '08. And nowhere near '06. You can't watch him play now and think he has the ability to do what he did in '06.

Bringing payroll into the discussion of the impossible comparison between a position player and a starting pitcher does little more than emphasize your ignorance of the business of baseball.

Please continue, this is amusing as hell.

Salary doesn't play a role in a players value? :scratch:

A backup player with Swisher's contract can't even be given away. Essentially, that's what we have. It has little to know value. If anything, it has negative value. We'd have to salary dump and pay some of his salary out.

Daver, I can usually at least respect your opinions, but it seems like you want to disagree just to disagree.

btrain929
08-17-2008, 07:22 PM
And how many games is he responsible for losing? How many close games did we lose because we didn't have a better bat or a better glove in center?

Gio has more value than Swisher even if he tanks the rest of the year. Teams already know what Swisher is, and it isn't very good. AND he gets paid $6 million next year. That's a really big AND that people continue to neglect when looking at Swisher's value.

I didn't know 5.3 million got rounded up to 6 million these days....

Daver
08-17-2008, 07:23 PM
Salary doesn't play a role in a players value? :scratch:

Daver, I can usually at least respect your opinions, but it seems like you want to disagree just to disagree.

You approach everything from the wrong perspective, which is why you get things backwards. Salary is what it is, it does not affect talent or ability, which are what you appraise players on, not their paycheck.

When you get right down to it an unproven pitcher has no real value, because they regularly do something the human body was not designed to do, and a large percentage of them get injured doing it. Trading a proven position player for unproven pitching is not a good gamble for the most part, the so called "genius" Billy Beane's team is getting beat like a rented mule on a regular basis because he is busy trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

And 6 mil is a drop in the bucket, Juan Uribe made close to that sitting on the bench for two months.

Hagan
08-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Wow this guy hates Swisher.

Don't forget KW also wanted to add a little life and some passion into the team. Swisher has transformed that clubhouse. And he's been a great addition to this team no matter what Gio Sweeney and DLS do in the future.

KW has been great at finding guys he doesn't think will perform well in a White Sox uniform at the bigs and trading them for value at the major league level.

Munchman maybe you missed his interview that the Score played last week about finding guys who don't throw a ton of fly balls who won't translate to the Cell. I would say watching Gio that he fits that category. Obviously..KW traded him twice.

Get off KW and Swishs a$$

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:39 PM
You approach everything from the wrong perspective, which is why you get things backwards. Salary is what it is, it does not affect talent or ability, which are what you appraise players on, not their paycheck.

When you get right down to it an unproven pitcher has no real value, because they regularly do something the human body was not designed to do, and a large percentage of them get injured doing it. Trading a proven position player for unproven pitching is not a good gamble for the most part, the so called "genius" Billy Beane's team is getting beat like a rented mule on a regular basis because he is busy trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

And 6 mil is a drop in the bucket, Juan Uribe made close to that sitting on the bench for two months.

You are confusing your personal opinion as a fan with the reality of the mlb market.

Comparing Nick Swisher to Juan Uribe only helps my case...

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:40 PM
Wow this guy hates Swisher.

Don't forget KW also wanted to add a little life and some passion into the team. Swisher has transformed that clubhouse. And he's been a great addition to this team no matter what Gio Sweeney and DLS do in the future.

KW has been great at finding guys he doesn't think will perform well in a White Sox uniform at the bigs and trading them for value at the major league level.

Munchman maybe you missed his interview that the Score played last week about finding guys who don't throw a ton of fly balls who won't translate to the Cell. I would say watching Gio that he fits that category. Obviously..KW traded him twice.

Get off KW and Swishs a$$

Wanting to trade someone and getting fair value are two completely different things.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:41 PM
I didn't know 5.3 million got rounded up to 6 million these days....

Let's call it 5.

We'd still have to pay to get rid of it.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 07:41 PM
Neither. I think he's somewhere between '07 and '08. And nowhere near '06. You can't watch him play now and think he has the ability to do what he did in '06.



Salary doesn't play a role in a players value? :scratch:

A backup player with Swisher's contract can't even be given away. Essentially, that's what we have. It has little to know value. If anything, it has negative value. We'd have to salary dump and pay some of his salary out.

Daver, I can usually at least respect your opinions, but it seems like you want to disagree just to disagree.
Well, considering he has the exact same LD% as 2006 I don't see why it's not plausible.

Why do you cite his VORP but ignore his BABIP?

munchman33
08-17-2008, 07:46 PM
Well, considering he has the exact same LD% as 2006 I don't see why it's not plausible.

Why do you cite his VORP but ignore his BABIP?

Because if you pay attention to Nick's plate approach, BABIP doesn't tell the whole story. For one, he goes up there trying to walk. Which leads to walks in situations that are not ideal. And second, he strikes out a ton for a guy that goes up there trying to walk every at bat. Which means he likely has trouble handling anything that's really isn't right over the plate. Which, if you watch him hit, is true. He can't extend and be successful.

Batting average on balls in plays means little when you don't put the ball in play alot.

EMachine10
08-17-2008, 07:52 PM
This has become such a silly argument.

btrain929
08-17-2008, 07:54 PM
Let's call it 5.

We'd still have to pay to get rid of it.

I wouldn't want to get rid of it. A guy who has his prime ahead of him, plays multiple positions, switch hit, does not make a lot of money in today's game, and has probably had his worst season of his career this year. You cannot think he'll be this bad for the duration of his contract. Only way he can go is up. If he can give us .250/.370/20/75, he's worth the 5 and the 6.5 mil he'll make in '09 and '10. And those are very low projections. He can easily outperform those numbers.

Daver
08-17-2008, 07:56 PM
You are confusing your personal opinion as a fan with the reality of the mlb market.

Comparing Nick Swisher to Juan Uribe only helps my case...

There is only one person confused here, and I am not guilty.

Please continue, I find this to be damn funny.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Because if you pay attention to Nick's plate approach, BABIP doesn't tell the whole story. For one, he goes up there trying to walk. Which leads to walks in situations that are not ideal. And second, he strikes out a ton for a guy that goes up there trying to walk every at bat. Which means he likely has trouble handling anything that's really isn't right over the plate. Which, if you watch him hit, is true. He can't extend and be successful.

Batting average on balls in plays means little when you don't put the ball in play alot.
He actually puts the ball in play at a respectable rate, but keep digging.

Do you ever take the time to look things up?

Rockin Robin
08-17-2008, 08:25 PM
It's true. He has a higher contact percentage than both TCQ and Josh Hamilton.

The idea that Nick Swisher's approach at the plate is "come on, gimme 4 balls!" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

pearso66
08-17-2008, 08:51 PM
It's true. He has a higher contact percentage than both TCQ and Josh Hamilton.

The idea that Nick Swisher's approach at the plate is "come on, gimme 4 balls!" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

Why would anyone want to take a walk? Getting guys on base is worthless at some points.

pearso66
08-17-2008, 08:58 PM
Because if you pay attention to Nick's plate approach, BABIP doesn't tell the whole story. For one, he goes up there trying to walk. Which leads to walks in situations that are not ideal.


This makes it sound like there are some cases where a guy should NEVER take a walk. Just hack at anything.

Obviously I know this isn't the case, but Swisher isn't the only player even on the Sox who would take a walk in a non-ideal situation. Is Swisher trying to take a walk in this situation? I don't know, I doubt you do. There is only 1 person who does, maybe 2-3 if you include Ozzie or Walker, but if he does, it doesn't seem like anyone else has much problem with it, I'm sure Ozzie would have called him out by now if he did.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 09:19 PM
This makes it sound like there are some cases where a guy should NEVER take a walk. Just hack at anything.

Obviously I know this isn't the case, but Swisher isn't the only player even on the Sox who would take a walk in a non-ideal situation. Is Swisher trying to take a walk in this situation? I don't know, I doubt you do. There is only 1 person who does, maybe 2-3 if you include Ozzie or Walker, but if he does, it doesn't seem like anyone else has much problem with it, I'm sure Ozzie would have called him out by now if he did.

Whether he wants to or not, he walks in those situations. And it makes his numbers look better than he actually is.

He has 19 walks in close and late situations. He has 37 walks with runners on.

I don't blame him. But I'm not going to laud him for walking in those situations either. OBP doesn't tell the whole story. You have to look beyond the statistics. That's why OBP is a dangerous way of evaluating a hitter. Especially when it's the only thing they have going for them.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 09:22 PM
There is only one person confused here, and I am not guilty.

Please continue, I find this to be damn funny.

Daver even if you want to argue that pitching prospects don't have prime value, which I disagree with vehemently, saying they have no value is pretty ridiculous.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 09:25 PM
He actually puts the ball in play at a respectable rate, but keep digging.

Do you ever take the time to look things up?


I didn't think that could be the case...but if it is, how does that help you? You're saying he puts the ball in play a lot and only has 91 hits? At least in my scenerio he wasn't try to put the ball in play. If he's putting the ball in play more than average and putting up such terrible numbers, that's incredibly damning of his ability to hit.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 09:27 PM
I wouldn't want to get rid of it. A guy who has his prime ahead of him, plays multiple positions, switch hit, does not make a lot of money in today's game, and has probably had his worst season of his career this year. You cannot think he'll be this bad for the duration of his contract. Only way he can go is up. If he can give us .250/.370/20/75, he's worth the 5 and the 6.5 mil he'll make in '09 and '10. And those are very low projections. He can easily outperform those numbers.

He's regressed every season since his "break out." I think he's passed his "prime."

Daver
08-17-2008, 09:31 PM
Daver even if you want to argue that pitching prospects don't have prime value, which I disagree with vehemently, saying they have no value is pretty ridiculous.

Go talk to a few scouts, they will set you straight, if you are going to trade unproven pitching for MLB talent, you are going to have to trade a lot of it.

Going strictly from memory, one out of every hundred pitching prospects ever throws a pitch at the MLB level, while thirty of the same hundred lose their careers to injury.

It's OK to admit you have no clue how the business of baseball works, but please continue, strictly for my entertainment.

munchman33
08-17-2008, 09:43 PM
Go talk to a few scouts, they will set you straight, if you are going to trade unproven pitching for MLB talent, you are going to have to trade a lot of it.

Going strictly from memory, one out of every hundred pitching prospects ever throws a pitch at the MLB level, while thirty of the same hundred lose their careers to injury.

It's OK to admit you have no clue how the business of baseball works, but please continue, strictly for my entertainment.

Teams trade their best prospects for backup players all the time, right? :rolleyes:

Yes, I'll agree that you'll trade a lot of prospects for MLB talent if the prospects aren't ready yet. But IT HAS TO BE TALENT. Not everyday regular guys. And certainly not below average major leaguers. You don't trade your best minor leaguers for a Nick Swisher. You trade one decent prospect, and maybe a few throw-ins. The three guys we sent were not indicative of the market price of said player.

Adele_H
08-17-2008, 09:50 PM
What do you think is more indicative of Swisher's performance -- 2006-07 or 2008?

I'd say one is the obvious outlier, especially when examining the statistics.

You of course want to put all your eggs in the 2008 basket, as it fits your agenda better.


Munchman33 may be wrong about K-Dub being a terrible GM, but if you don't see why a lot of people are paying MORE attention to what a player does this year specifically - especially players of certain, um, profile from Bay Area... you're being naive. Statistical outliers or not.

As far as I am concerned, Nick Swisher needs to do 2 things:

1) get the hell out of CF
2) start producing big-time at the plate - and soon

KRS1
08-17-2008, 09:50 PM
You have to look beyond the statistics.

I guess it's up to me to point out the irony of this statement?

Daver
08-17-2008, 09:55 PM
Teams trade their best prospects for backup players all the time, right? :rolleyes:

Yes, I'll agree that you'll trade a lot of prospects for MLB talent if the prospects aren't ready yet. But IT HAS TO BE TALENT. Not everyday regular guys. And certainly not below average major leaguers. You don't trade your best minor leaguers for a Nick Swisher. You trade one decent prospect, and maybe a few throw-ins. The three guys we sent were not indicative of the market price of said player.

You presume to be an expert on the market value of baseball talent? If so please tell me exactly what Micah Schnurstein is worth in today's market.

Adele_H
08-17-2008, 10:13 PM
Go talk to a few scouts, they will set you straight, if you are going to trade unproven pitching for MLB talent, you are going to have to trade a lot of it.

Going strictly from memory, one out of every hundred pitching prospects ever throws a pitch at the MLB level, while thirty of the same hundred lose their careers to injury.

It's OK to admit you have no clue how the business of baseball works, but please continue, strictly for my entertainment.

Like with anything else... it's all in the relative details.

Pitching prospects like Mark Prior or Josh Beckett typically do not get traded for Nick Swishers of this world.

Pitching prospects like Gio Gonzalez, on the other hand, are fair game.


I think it serves neither side in this pissing contest here any good to simplify/distort "MLB marketplace reality"

Optipessimism
08-17-2008, 10:21 PM
You presume to be an expert on the market value of baseball talent? If so please tell me exactly what Micah Schnurstein is worth in today's market.
Rob Valido?

Daver
08-17-2008, 10:22 PM
Like with anything else... it's all in the relative details.

Pitching prospects like Mark Prior or Josh Beckett typically do not get traded for Nick Swishers of this world.

Pitching prospects like Gio Gonzalez, on the other hand, are fair game.


I think it serves neither side in this pissing contest here any good to simplify/distort "MLB marketplace reality"

Where have I stated what any player was worth?

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 10:32 PM
I didn't think that could be the case...but if it is, how does that help you? You're saying he puts the ball in play a lot and only has 91 hits? At least in my scenerio he wasn't try to put the ball in play. If he's putting the ball in play more than average and putting up such terrible numbers, that's incredibly damning of his ability to hit.
You are running around in circles. If he's putting the ball in play at a respectable rate (one higher than he's had in his previous seasons) AND hitting the same amount of line drives/ground balls/fly balls as the past don't you think that's where the "luck factor" comes in? Sometimes guys have bad luck. It happens. Sometimes for a full season.

You're confusing yourself.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 10:33 PM
Munchman33 may be wrong about K-Dub being a terrible GM, but if you don't see why a lot of people are paying MORE attention to what a player does this year specifically - especially players of certain, um, profile from Bay Area... you're being naive. Statistical outliers or not.

As far as I am concerned, Nick Swisher needs to do 2 things:

1) get the hell out of CF
2) start producing big-time at the plate - and soon
That's ridiculous speculation.

btrain929
08-17-2008, 10:35 PM
Remember when this thread was about Jordan Danks? Man, those were the good ole' days....

Adele_H
08-17-2008, 10:41 PM
That's ridiculous speculation.

Oh come off it. And wake up while you're at it.

2008 is just the beginning. By 2010 at latest, there will be a blood-based HGH test; just wait and see how it transform the MLB "landscape" and ways players are scouted/evaluated...

Or do you think it's only fair to speculate/insinuate about NON-Sox players, which I've seen done here a ton of times?

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Oh come off it. And wake up while you're at it.

2008 is just the beginning. By 2010 at latest, there will be a blood-based HGH test; just wait and see how it transform the MLB "landscape" and ways players are scouted/evaluated...

Or do you think it's only fair to speculate/insinuate about NON-Sox players, which I've seen done here a ton of times?
I think there are better ways of explaining a drop in production, especially when there are statistics that make a more rational conclusion blatantly obvious.

The steroids accusation is a cop-out and lazy.

Optipessimism
08-17-2008, 10:52 PM
Oh come off it. And wake up while you're at it.

2008 is just the beginning. By 2010 at latest, there will be a blood-based HGH test; just wait and see how it transform the MLB "landscape" and ways players are scouted/evaluated...

Or do you think it's only fair to speculate/insinuate about NON-Sox players, which I've seen done here a ton of times?
What in the hell makes you think there's any link whatsoever between steriods and Swisher? You can tell from his swing that he's a low batting average guy and if things go right for him he'll hit a lot of home runs. Just because a guy has a down year doesn't mean he's a ****ing steroid candidate.

Optipessimism
08-17-2008, 10:54 PM
I think there are better ways of explaining a drop in production, especially when there are statistics that make a more rational conclusion blatantly obvious.

The steroids accusation is a cop-out and lazy.
Agreed 100%

Adele_H
08-17-2008, 10:58 PM
? Just because a guy has a down year doesn't mean he's a ****ing steroid candidate.

I am sure that's a standard you apply to all players, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

Incidentally, during Swisher's AB, FOX was showing Swisher from his Oakland days, and the difference was startling - with the Oakland Swisher bigger with a more explosive, for lack of better word, swing. Reminded me of poor man's Giambi.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 11:08 PM
I am sure that's a standard you apply to all players, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

Incidentally, during Swisher's AB, FOX was showing Swisher from his Oakland days, and the difference was startling - with the Oakland Swisher bigger with a more explosive, for lack of better word, swing. Reminded me of poor man's Giambi.
I'm sold. Case closed.

Daver
08-17-2008, 11:09 PM
I am sure that's a standard you apply to all players, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

Incidentally, during Swisher's AB, FOX was showing Swisher from his Oakland days, and the difference was startling - with the Oakland Swisher bigger with a more explosive, for lack of better word, swing. Reminded me of poor man's Giambi.That's a total reach and you know it.

Adele_H
08-17-2008, 11:25 PM
That's a total reach and you know it.

No, it's a (real) possibility - and you, of all people, know it. (By virtue of your proximity to the game.)


I like Swisher (who doesn't?); I want him to do as well as possible. I certainly hope that Swish is as clean as, say, Frank Thomas.

But I am not willing to turn a blind eye to the issue that's almost ruined baseball - and that includes questioning Sox players.


As always, time will judge all.

Craig Grebeck
08-17-2008, 11:28 PM
No, it's a (real) possibility - and you, of all people, know it. (By virtue of your proximity to the game.)


I like Swisher (who doesn't?); I want him to do as well as possible. I certainly hope that Swish is as clean as, say, Frank Thomas.

But I am not willing to turn a blind eye to the issue that's almost ruined baseball - and that includes questioning Sox players.


As always, time will judge all.
What will time judge? I don't understand. If he doesn't regain his form does that make him a user?

UofCSoxFan
08-18-2008, 12:24 AM
No, it's a (real) possibility - and you, of all people, know it. (By virtue of your proximity to the game.)


I like Swisher (who doesn't?); I want him to do as well as possible. I certainly hope that Swish is as clean as, say, Frank Thomas.

But I am not willing to turn a blind eye to the issue that's almost ruined baseball - and that includes questioning Sox players.


As always, time will judge all.

I think you need more than speculation before accusing someone of being a drug user. Swisher has not seen a huge drop in power compared to years past (He's had more than 22 once in his career and has 17 this year. His OPS is down because his average is driving his slugging percentage down. His OBP is only 9 points lower than his career average (and that's what we got him for). If people actually look past batting average....which is an antiquated way to measure a hitter's worth...they'll see Swisher is not having that bad of a year. To claim he was a roids user due to a huge drop off in production is just baseless because the huge drop in production doesn't exist.

BTW....Gio looked great today. So far we've given up a guy that blew out his arm, a singles hitting corner OF, and a very raw pitcher that has been traded 3 times already. Doesn't seem like much.

oeo
08-18-2008, 12:46 AM
BTW....Gio looked great today. So far we've given up a guy that blew out his arm, a singles hitting corner OF, and a very raw pitcher that has been traded 3 times already. Doesn't seem like much.

C'mon, I know you're just trying to prove a point, but Gio is 22 years old. He will be the only guy from that trade that will hurt us and I wish him nothing but success.

Seeing him in an Oakland uniform today really made me feel sad; I was really looking forward to this guy being in our rotation for a long time. Time to move on, though. :(:

That's not to say I don't like Swisher here, though. I'm a big believer in clubhouse culture effecting the attitude and play of the ballclub, and I don't think we'd be where we're at right now without Swisher. Even with a down year with the bat, he's still done a lot for this team. And since June 1st, he really hasn't been that bad, anyway.

rdivaldi
08-18-2008, 01:02 AM
Remember when this thread was about Jordan Danks? Man, those were the good ole' days....

Agreed, and also....

:threadsucks

munchman33
08-18-2008, 01:07 AM
You are running around in circles. If he's putting the ball in play at a respectable rate (one higher than he's had in his previous seasons) AND hitting the same amount of line drives/ground balls/fly balls as the past don't you think that's where the "luck factor" comes in? Sometimes guys have bad luck. It happens. Sometimes for a full season.

You're confusing yourself.

I don't think there's anything confusing about the type of player Swisher is.

Now I just want to say I DO NOT believe this to be PED related. I think the league has gotten wise to Swisher's plan at the plate and he, due to deficiencies in his ability to hit, cannot compensate for it. And I truly believe that what we see is what he is. I welcome him to prove me wrong. But he hasn't, and he's actually been worse at adjusting this year then even I thought he'd be. He's probably around a .240/.320/.410 type guy (let's hope he can at least do that). Nice bench guy who can play lots of positions. But not an everyday guy. Not worth his contract. And certainly not worth what we paid for him.

Optipessimism
08-18-2008, 01:33 AM
I don't think there's anything confusing about the type of player Swisher is.

Now I just want to say I DO NOT believe this to be PED related. I think the league has gotten wise to Swisher's plan at the plate and he, due to deficiencies in his ability to hit, cannot compensate for it. And I truly believe that what we see is what he is. I welcome him to prove me wrong. But he hasn't, and he's actually been worse at adjusting this year then even I thought he'd be. He's probably around a .240/.320/.410 type guy (let's hope he can at least do that). Nice bench guy who can play lots of positions. But not an everyday guy. Not worth his contract. And certainly not worth what we paid for him.
Whoa, what?

In his first full season he posted a .322 OBP, the lowest of his career, and his .405 SLG% this year is the lowest of his career. Both numbers are well below his career averages, and in a HR-hitters park that SLG% should definitely climb sooner or later.

Munchman, I think you should stop by the roadhouse and start a new thread entitled "The *Official* Munchman Swisher Deal Hate Thread" and keep this all in one spot. This **** is finding its way into all kinds of threads that weren't meant for it.

Chilli Palmer
08-18-2008, 02:08 AM
So did we sign Danks? And if so how much of a bonus did he get?

Oh and munch, please ****.

jcw218
08-18-2008, 02:21 AM
So did we sign Danks? And if so how much of a bonus did he get?

Oh and munch, please ****.

Yes Danks has reportedly (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080814&content_id=3307534&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) signed with a bonus of just over $500K

Craig Grebeck
08-18-2008, 07:21 AM
I don't think there's anything confusing about the type of player Swisher is.

Now I just want to say I DO NOT believe this to be PED related. I think the league has gotten wise to Swisher's plan at the plate and he, due to deficiencies in his ability to hit, cannot compensate for it. And I truly believe that what we see is what he is. I welcome him to prove me wrong. But he hasn't, and he's actually been worse at adjusting this year then even I thought he'd be. He's probably around a .240/.320/.410 type guy (let's hope he can at least do that). Nice bench guy who can play lots of positions. But not an everyday guy. Not worth his contract. And certainly not worth what we paid for him.
The numbers say you're wrong. I'll trust them. Open your ****ing eyes.

oeo
08-18-2008, 08:28 AM
I don't think there's anything confusing about the type of player Swisher is.

Now I just want to say I DO NOT believe this to be PED related. I think the league has gotten wise to Swisher's plan at the plate and he, due to deficiencies in his ability to hit, cannot compensate for it. And I truly believe that what we see is what he is. I welcome him to prove me wrong. But he hasn't, and he's actually been worse at adjusting this year then even I thought he'd be. He's probably around a .240/.320/.410 type guy (let's hope he can at least do that). Nice bench guy who can play lots of positions. But not an everyday guy. Not worth his contract. And certainly not worth what we paid for him.

What gives you the idea that he's going to fall off that much? After a slow start, Swisher has been perfectly fine. You can continue to use his terrible April and May to your "advantage," but you're doing nothing but proving yourself wrong.

Jeff B
08-18-2008, 10:27 AM
What gives you the idea that he's going to fall off that much? After a slow start, Swisher has been perfectly fine. You can continue to use his terrible April and May to your "advantage," but you're doing nothing but proving yourself wrong.
He had a terrible July also, actually he's only had the one good month (June) when he was fantastic. I don't agre with what munchman33 is saying but still there's no way you can describe Nicks production as "perfectly fine".

oeo
08-18-2008, 10:37 AM
He had a terrible July also, actually he's only had the one good month (June) when he was fantastic. I don't agre with what munchman33 is saying but still there's no way you can describe Nicks production as "perfectly fine".

It wasn't until after the All Star Break that he started to swing a bad bat again. And until before he's gone 0-fer his last 10, he was having a good August.

Look, since June 7th, he's batting .263 with a .382 OBP and 12 homeruns, which is 'perfectly fine' with me. The walks are always going to be there, the hits will come.

California Sox
08-18-2008, 03:03 PM
Is there any way this thread could move to the Clubhouse? Maybe a massive "Complaining about Swisher" mega thread?

It certainly has nothing to do with Jordan Danks, except maybe that Jordan is seen as a similar player to Ryan Sweeney.

CashMan
08-18-2008, 03:22 PM
It certainly has nothing to do with Jordan Danks, except maybe that Jordan is seen as a similar player to Ryan Sweeney.


I'll take that near .300 avg then.

Adele_H
08-18-2008, 05:12 PM
What gives you the idea that he's going to fall off that much? After a slow start, Swisher has been perfectly fine. You can continue to use his terrible April and May to your "advantage," but you're doing nothing but proving yourself wrong.

Oh please. Out of 5 months, the only month when he's not dissappointed was June.

Furthermore, even as modest as his numbers are, they have been inflated by USCF - he's absolutely brutal on the Road, where production is at premium, especially this year.

Swisher is not fine. He needs to improve - and soon. Period.

As for Danks tug of war, glad it's over; get his ass to Winston Salem.

btrain929
08-18-2008, 05:23 PM
When is Danks making his debut? I'm assuming it is with Kanny?

KyWhiSoxFan
08-18-2008, 07:03 PM
When is Danks making his debut? I'm assuming it is with Kanny?

Yes, he's reporting to Kanny tomorrow.

jabrch
08-18-2008, 09:20 PM
That's great news - just got back from being away since Thurs and wanted to see if we got him.

Three+ years down the road, we can start to judge this class.

BadBobbyJenks
08-19-2008, 11:36 PM
Man I forgot about this thread because it was in the Minor League Forum. Thanks for the laughs Munch. Have you been watching Swisher lately?

Craig Grebeck
08-19-2008, 11:41 PM
Man I forgot about this thread because it was in the Minor League Forum. Thanks for the laughs Munch. Have you been watching Swisher lately?
Or since June 1st -- he's been just what we need.

EndemicSox
08-20-2008, 11:49 AM
Good to see the Danks brothers on-board!

Regarding Swish, I'll always be a bit suspicious of the players that came out the A's organization in the early 00's...he does blow on the road...hard...

oeo
08-20-2008, 11:53 AM
Good to see the Danks brothers on-board!

Regarding Swish, I'll always be a bit suspicious of the players that came out the A's organization in the early 00's...he does blow on the road...hard...

He has an outside chance at hitting 30 homeruns this year. After hitting only 4 in his first two months, I'd definitely say he was a roider.

UofCSoxFan
08-20-2008, 12:45 PM
He has an outside chance at hitting 30 homeruns this year. After hitting only 4 in his first two months, I'd definitely say he was a roider.


Because he started hitting when the weather got warmer? Are you suggesting that he started taking them the last few months?

You do understand how steroids work right? You don't just take them and get stronger...you take them to improve your workouts. They allow you to recover quicker from your workouts and build muscle faster. You see the results after months of working out, not immediately. I've noticed absolutely no increase in Swisher's size over the course of the season.

He currently is around his career averages for home runs. If he went from 35 HRs to something like 8, you could make the case. Again, Swisher will end this year with a slightly lower average....that's it. The steroid case has no base. None. Could he be juicing, sure. But the same could be said for everyone in baseball. There is absolutely no evidence regarding Swisher except that he used to play in Oakland...which is circucmstantial at best.

There are much more likely explanations for Swisher's slow start:
Cold weather, playing a new position, having to leadoff, playing with a new team, starting off in a slump and then pressing, etc...

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, so if you are, I apologize and disregard this whole post.

oeo
08-20-2008, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, so if you are, I apologize and disregard this whole post.

Yes, I was.

UofCSoxFan
08-20-2008, 01:32 PM
Yes, I was.

Yeah...I wrote my diatribe and then, realizing that you are actually a sane poster, thought that you may have been sarcastic. The sad thing is given some of the posts in this thread, I couldn't be sure.

I still think my post needed to be said, however, since some people think that anyone that ever has a slump and is from northern California must be off the juice.

CashMan
08-20-2008, 01:57 PM
You do understand how steroids work right? You don't just take them and get stronger...you take them to improve your workouts. They allow you to recover quicker from your workouts and build muscle faster. You see the results after months of working out, not immediately. I've noticed absolutely no increase in Swisher's size over the course of the season.




Do they not increase you hand eye coordination, and increase bat speed? Players don't take them just to get bigger. I do not think Swisher is juicing though.

UofCSoxFan
08-20-2008, 04:41 PM
Do they not increase you hand eye coordination, and increase bat speed? Players don't take them just to get bigger. I do not think Swisher is juicing though.

I am by no means a steroid expert but don't think they increase your hand eye coordination. For this reason, Arnald Schwartzenagar would never be a good baseball player. You are right that they don't just make you bigger, some take them to get over soreness or keep up from the daily grind (for example Juan Rincon).

JorgeFabregas
08-20-2008, 06:22 PM
I am by no means a steroid expert but don't think they increase your hand eye coordination. For this reason, Arnald Schwartzenagar would never be a good baseball player. You are right that they don't just make you bigger, some take them to get over soreness or keep up from the daily grind (for example Juan Rincon).
HGH can improve your vision.

2906
08-20-2008, 07:39 PM
Just to steer this back to Jordan Danks, he's playing his first pro game tonight, leading off and playing CF for Kannapolis.

First pro at bat, not memorable, he struck out. Just to make him feel at home, Gordon Beckham followed with a strike out of his own.

cws05champ
08-20-2008, 08:36 PM
Just to steer this back to Jordan Danks, he's playing his first pro game tonight, leading off and playing CF for Kannapolis.

First pro at bat, not memorable, he struck out. Just to make him feel at home, Gordon Beckham followed with a strike out of his own.
That's our future 2 and 3 hitters??? Can't believe we signed these bums!!!