PDA

View Full Version : Indians trade Paul Byrd to Red Sox


Fenway
08-12-2008, 03:53 PM
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080812&content_id=3295835&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle


I am amazed teams below Boston didn't block it starting with New York

btrain929
08-12-2008, 03:55 PM
.........or the White Sox. He would have been perfect depth/insurance for our rotation.

GregO23
08-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Per Rotoworld:
Red Sox acquired RHP Paul Byrd from the Indians for a player to be named later or cash.

Wow. Garcia gone, Were not interested in Washburn, Byrd gone.

Hello Carrasco, you are our pennant chasing 5th starter

Rockabilly
08-12-2008, 03:57 PM
Byrd would have been a nice fit for us... I will be shocked if KW doesn't pick up another starter..

Carrasco should have pitched the 9th inning last night instead of Russell.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 03:58 PM
If Kenny Williams didn't think Byrd worth claiming I have no doubt he isn't worth claiming.

Bunch of gutless cowards who have no faith in our team and :whiner: about every pitcher who gets traded instead of believing in and encouraging our guys like Carrasco who has been a warrior for us since we got him.

I for one am very excited to see him in a starting role!

balke
08-12-2008, 04:00 PM
If Kenny Williams didn't think Byrd worth claiming I have no doubt he isn't worth claiming.

Bunch of gutless cowards who have no faith in our team and :whiner: about every pitcher who gets traded instead of believing in and encouraging our guys like Carrasco who has been a warrior for us since we got him.

I for one am very excited to see him in a starting role!


No matter how much they cost, how old they are, or how injury prone, every pitcher ever acquired by another team was supposed to come to chicago.

PaleHoser
08-12-2008, 04:01 PM
I'd have traded for him just to keep from facing him in the playoffs. He gives us fits.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 04:04 PM
Bunch of gutless cowards who have no faith in our team and :whiner: about every pitcher who gets traded instead of believing in and encouraging our guys like Carrasco who has been a warrior for us since we got him.

I for one am very excited to see him in a starting role!

The problem is he now leaves a hole in the bullpen.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 04:07 PM
The problem is he now leaves a hole in the bullpen.
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

doublem23
08-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

Let 'em jump. I like the extra leg room. :D:

Bill Naharodny
08-12-2008, 04:11 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

Wow. Pants-pissing AND cowards?

Someone is very concerned with the courage of those who are following a baseball team.

kobo
08-12-2008, 04:12 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

So, because someone might not have faith in Carrasco that person is a "pants-pissing coward"? Thanks for clearing that up!

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:14 PM
Let 'em jump. I like the extra leg room. :D:
Word!

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 04:16 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

If Kenny Williams didn't think Byrd worth claiming I have no doubt he isn't worth claiming.

Bunch of gutless cowards who have no faith in our team and :whiner: about every pitcher who gets traded instead of believing in and encouraging our guys like Carrasco who has been a warrior for us since we got him.

I for one am very excited to see him in a starting role!

I agree 100%. I see no reason we wont continue to compete all year.

turners56
08-12-2008, 04:18 PM
The only option Kenny really has is Washburn now. I doubt he makes a move at all.

Fenway
08-12-2008, 04:19 PM
We can debate the White Sox situation

But how on earth does Brian Cashman not try to block/get Byrd???

My gawd they are talking about bringing back PAVANO

turners56
08-12-2008, 04:22 PM
We can debate the White Sox situation

But how on earth does Brian Cashman not try to block/get Byrd???

My gawd they are talking about bringing back PAVANO

Some GMs might be scared that their entire clubhouse will be affected by Byrd's immense obsession with porn and Christianity.

champagne030
08-12-2008, 04:23 PM
He must not throw a good enough two-seamer or is afraid to throw a change behind in the count. Oh well, we have numerous better options within our own organization. :rolleyes:

Who's watching the waiver wire for us, ****ing Mickey Mouse?

Jim Shorts
08-12-2008, 04:23 PM
Where have you gone Kenny Williams

A lonely nation turns it's eyes to you.

Rockabilly
08-12-2008, 04:25 PM
im suprised Maddux only wants to be traded to the Dodgers.. I thought he would be willing to play anywhere if he had a chance to win the series...

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:26 PM
Where have you gone Kenny Williams

A lonely nation turns it's eyes to you.
Red Sox Nation? Is that the one you're talking about?

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:26 PM
He must not throw a good enough two-seamer or is afraid to throw a change behind in the count. Oh well, we have numerous better options within our own organization. :rolleyes:

Who's watching the waiver wire for us, ****ing Mickey Mouse?

I take it you heard the latest Kenny Williams interview on the Score?

"Just because a guy is an obvious choice, doesn't mean he's an obvious choice for us."

I don't know...I have more faith in Paul Byrd doing well at the Cell in the playoffs than Lance Broadway. After all, he pretty much shut us down in Game 1 of the ALCS 2 years ago.

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:28 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.

Are you basing this on his whip of nearly 2 in the minors this year or his 14 innings of major league work, mosty against the Royals?

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:31 PM
I love when all of the armchair GM's make an appearance!:bandance::bandance::bandance:

All I'm going to say is this team was supposed to be 4th or 5th in the division according to all of the experts here and elsewhere. The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

MarySwiss
08-12-2008, 04:33 PM
Let 'em jump. I like the extra leg room. :D:

Word!

I love when all of the armchair GM's make an appearance!:bandance::bandance::bandance:

All I'm going to say is this team was suppsoed to be 4th or 5th in the division according to all of the experts here and elsewhere. The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

Word! :smile:

kba
08-12-2008, 04:34 PM
He must not throw a good enough two-seamer or is afraid to throw a change behind in the count. Oh well, we have numerous better options within our own organization. :rolleyes:

Who's watching the waiver wire for us, ****ing Mickey Mouse?

If you believe the press (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08072008/sports/yankees/yanks_win_as_losses_mount_123347.htm), Byrd had already cleared waivers by August 7 (before Contreras got hurt.) That means Cleveland was free to negotiate with any team and work out the best trade they could. There was no way the Sox or Yankees or anybody else could "block" Boston at this point. They would have had to put a claim in for him when he was initially waived last week.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 04:34 PM
Lance Broadway will fill in just fine. There is nothing to fear but fear itself and the threat of having one of the pants-pissing coward Sox "fans" falling on you as they jump off the ledge.
Lance Broadway is not a Major League pitcher, and you insult those who actually understand that Lance Broadway is not a Major League pitcher by calling them ledge jumpers.

If you'd have been paying any attention at all to the players you're talking about, you'd see that Broadway is getting lit up in Triple A and Paul Byrd has been doing a decent job lately with Cleveland. A veteran pitcher who is pitching well in the Major Leagues is better than a rookie who can't get it done in Charlotte.

Kenny talks about how he wants sink and all that. It looks like the Sox aren't authorized to take on anymore salary after the Griffey deal and now he's putting the spin on it.

*Edit: here, look at Broadway's numbers from Triple A.

Opponents are hitting .294 off him, he's given up 23 HR in 138.1 IP, he's had 2 quality starts in his last ten while never going more than 6 IP, in fact his average lately has been about 5 IP, 7.27 ERA in his last 10 games, over 10 H/9, and it goes on. How you or anyone else can have faith in him is beyond me.

veeter
08-12-2008, 04:35 PM
So, because someone might not have faith in Carrasco that person is a "pants-pissing coward"? Thanks for clearing that up!The question you always have to ask is: is he better than what we have? IMO, Freddy nor Byrd are better. I'll stand by our guys. The very same media that'll say Contrears is old and sucks, acts like we lost Sandy Koufax when he gets hurt. The Twins better worry about us.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 04:37 PM
All I'm going to say is this team was supposed to be 4th or 5th in the division according to all of the experts here and elsewhere. The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

GREAT! Now I can judge each season by preseason prediction by experts, not how the season actually goes.

TB should just be happy to be above .500!

And I guess 2006 was a complete and total failure even though we won 90 games. (we were expected to at least make an appearance in the playoffs).

TomBradley72
08-12-2008, 04:38 PM
No matter how much they cost, how old they are, or how injury prone, every pitcher ever acquired by another team was supposed to come to chicago.

4.53 ERA, 1.3 WHIP...better than Javy, same as Jose, probably better than whoever we'll put out there as our 5th starter plus we could have kept Carrasco in the bullpen...where as far as I can tell...Russell will take his spot until/if Linebrink gets healthy. Byrd had a very rough June..but a 3.70 ERA in June (4 starts) and a 1.69 ERA in August (2 starts, 1 CG).

So what you rather have Byrd as 5th starter with Carrasco in bullpen or Carrasco as 5th starter and Russell?

asindc
08-12-2008, 04:38 PM
The question you always have to ask is: is he better than what we have? IMO, Freddy nor Byrd are better. I'll stand by our guys. The very same media that'll say Contrears is old and sucks, acts like we lost Sandy Koufax when he gets hurt. The Twins better worry about us.

Thank you. Needed to be said.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 04:38 PM
Are you basing this on his whip of nearly 2 in the minors this year or his 14 innings of major league work, mosty against the Royals?
I'm basing it on the fact the organization obviously has confidence in him, and they know a LOT more about his skillset than any of us on the internet.

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:38 PM
I love when all of the armchair GM's make an appearance!:bandance::bandance::bandance:

All I'm going to say is this team was supposed to be 4th or 5th in the division according to all of the experts here and elsewhere. The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

Kenny Williams is a good GM but he also has made some bonehead plays. If we lose the division by a game or two with DJ Carrasco as the fifth starter and Adam Russell/Lance Broadway pitching in spots that Carrasco can be in...it's on Kenny. Paul Byrd is a pretty good pitcher and has shown the ability to pitch at the cell.

If KW puts in a claim, who knows if the Indians actually trade him to us, but at the very least we would have ensured he'd would have stayed in Cleveland.

I think its absurd that people such as you think that wanting to acquire a pitcher to improve a staff whose ERA has been over 6 the past month makes someone a "coward of a fan." Get your head out of the coulds. This team is deeply flawed. We may win the division. Hell we may win the World Series. But to think this team doesn't have room to improve is moronic.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 04:40 PM
Lance Broadway is not a Major League pitcher, and you insult those who actually understand that Lance Broadway is not a Major League pitcher by calling them ledge jumpers.

If you'd have been paying any attention at all to the players you're talking about, you'd see that Broadway is getting lit up in Triple A and Paul Byrd has been doing a decent job lately with Cleveland. A veteran pitcher who is pitching well in the Major Leagues is better than a rookie who can't get it done in Charlotte.

Kenny talks about how he wants sink and all that. It looks like the Sox aren't authorized to take on anymore salary after the Griffey deal and now he's putting the spin on it.
Do you work for the White Sox? Are you one of their accountants or financial advisors? No! Then you have absolutely no idea what their in-house salary constraints may or may not be.

Again, I'll trust the GM who constructed a World Series winner over the opinion of an armchair GM on the net.

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm basing it on the fact the organization obviously has confidence in him, and they know a LOT more about his skillset than any of us on the internet.

They have so much confidence in him that they brought up Adam Russell, Erin Wasserman (twice), DJ Carrasco, stuck with Boone Logan forever, before bringing him up? He's like option 6 at this point. Yeah, that's confidence.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 04:41 PM
I'm basing it on the fact the organization obviously has confidence in him, and they know a LOT more about his skillset than any of us on the internet.

Yeah - they apparently knew a lot about Wasserman, too!

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Do you work for the White Sox? Are you one of their accountants or financial advisors? No! Then you have absolutely no idea what their in-house salary constraints may or may not be.

Again, I'll trust the GM who constructed a World Series winner over the opinion of an armchair GM on the net.

T-shirt sales alone from a division championship would offset the price of Paul Byrd. KW and JR have consistently shown they will spend money to win a championship if they think a move will help do so. This is purely a baseball discision, not a financial one, if history is any indication. To argue otherwise has no basis.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Do you work for the White Sox? Are you one of their accountants or financial advisors? No! Then you have absolutely no idea what their in-house salary constraints may or may not be.

Again, I'll trust the GM who constructed a World Series winner over the opinion of an armchair GM on the net.

How true! I mean, he's altready got us in a pennant race, which is much more than we *should* have been in, according to preseason experts (though the game is not played on paper, as many here will remind you any chance they get)...so who cares if all of a sudden a move Williams makes or doesn't make blows up and costs the Sox the playoffs? The season is already a success! KW for Exec of the Year!

OK, I am completely sarcasm-ed out right now.

Fenway
08-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Boston Dirt Dogs didn't waste anytime

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/2008/08/sox_give_fans_the_byrd.html

veeter
08-12-2008, 04:46 PM
Kenny Williams is a good GM but he also has made some bonehead plays. If we lose the division by a game or two with DJ Carrasco as the fifth starter and Adam Russell/Lance Broadway pitching in spots that Carrasco can be in...it's on Kenny. Paul Byrd is a pretty good pitcher and has shown the ability to pitch at the cell.

If KW puts in a claim, who knows if the Indians actually trade him to us, but at the very least we would have ensured he'd would have stayed in Cleveland.

I think its absurd that people such as you think that wanting to acquire a pitcher to improve a staff whose ERA has been over 6 the past month makes someone a "coward of a fan." Get your head out of the coulds. This team is deeply flawed. We may win the division. Hell we may win the World Series. But to think this team doesn't have room to improve is moronic.If we lose the division by a game or two, how about IT being on Javy who disappeared for most of the season. Or MB's very rough patches. If those two guys had pitched just a little better we'd be up three or four games right now. Those two have to be held accountable. And they have to take the baton from Floyd and Danks and bring this thing home.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 04:47 PM
The question you always have to ask is: is he better than what we have? IMO, Freddy nor Byrd are better. I'll stand by our guys. The very same media that'll say Contrears is old and sucks, acts like we lost Sandy Koufax when he gets hurt. The Twins better worry about us.
Byrd is leaps and bounds better than Broadway or any of our minor league starters. He's been leaps and bounds better than Carrasco throughout his career, as Byrd has actually had a career.

I can understand giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, I do it all the time. But calling our in-house options better than Paul Byrd is ridiculous and is based on nothing other than gut feelings and lack of research into the topic. Most likely, the Sox cannot take on salary and Kenny is just paying lip service.

bluestar
08-12-2008, 04:48 PM
Do you work for the White Sox? Are you one of their accountants or financial advisors? No! Then you have absolutely no idea what their in-house salary constraints may or may not be.

Again, I'll trust the GM who constructed a World Series winner over the opinion of an armchair GM on the net.

I trust KW, too, but we don't know that the White Sox ever had a chance to get Byrd. Maybe Cleveland wouldn't trade him to us. Maybe he specifically requested not to be traded to certain teams, and, as long as all things about the deal were relatively equal, the Indians complied with his wishes.

I think it is wrong to assume KW (or Cashman or anyone else) had a chance to get Byrd and passed on it. We don't know any of the circumstances.

The deal is done now. I am not going to sit around and speculate about "could have beens" or "what ifs."

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:49 PM
If we lose the division by a game or two, how about IT being on Javy who disappeared for most of the season. Or MB's very rough patches. If those two guys had pitched just a little better we'd be up three or four games right now. Those two have to be held accountable. And they have to take the baton from Floyd and Danks and bring this thing home.

Buerhle's been a lot better than Floyd for most of the year. And yes, of course it's on the players to to play better. But KW's job is to improve this team when he can. If he leaves moves on the table and it costs this team 3 or 4 wins (which I think moving DJ out of the bullpen alone may cost us) then yes, KW takes a lot of the blame.

veeter
08-12-2008, 04:49 PM
Byrd is leaps and bounds better than Broadway or any of our minor league starters. He's been leaps and bounds better than Carrasco throughout his career, as Byrd has actually had a career.

I can understand giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, I do it all the time. But calling our in-house options better than Paul Byrd is ridiculous and is based on nothing other than gut feelings and lack of research into the topic. Most likely, the Sox cannot take on salary and Kenny is just paying lip service.What I've researched is that ever since Byrd is off the HGH, he sucks.

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:51 PM
GREAT! Now I can judge each season by preseason prediction by experts, not how the season actually goes.

TB should just be happy to be above .500!

And I guess 2006 was a complete and total failure even though we won 90 games. (we were expected to at least make an appearance in the playoffs).
Your point is.....

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 04:51 PM
I trust KW, too, but we don't know that the White Sox ever had a chance to get Byrd. Maybe Cleveland wouldn't trade him to us. Maybe he specifically requested not to be traded to certain teams, and, as long as all things about the deal were relatively equal, the Indians complied with his wishes.

I think it is wrong to assume KW (or Cashman or anyone else) had a chance to get Byrd and passed on it. We don't know any of the circumstances.

The deal is done now. I am not going to sit around and speculate about "could have beens" or "what ifs."

Even if he requested not to be traded to us or if CLE would not have traded him to us (which may be likely) the Sox still could have put in a claim. That would have meant either he was traded to the WS or to no one. They didn't even try. Best case we get an actual major league starter in our rotation instead of bullpen guy. Worst case, we block him from Boston. That's the point.

Bill Naharodny
08-12-2008, 04:54 PM
4.53 ERA, 1.3 WHIP...better than Javy, same as Jose, probably better than whoever we'll put out there as our 5th starter plus we could have kept Carrasco in the bullpen...where as far as I can tell...Russell will take his spot until/if Linebrink gets healthy. Byrd had a very rough June..but a 3.70 ERA in June (4 starts) and a 1.69 ERA in August (2 starts, 1 CG).

So what you rather have Byrd as 5th starter with Carrasco in bullpen or Carrasco as 5th starter and Russell?

Watch it. If you keep using numbers and logic and reasoning and such, people are going to start thinking you're a coward with pee-pants.

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:55 PM
Kenny Williams is a good GM but he also has made some bonehead plays. If we lose the division by a game or two with DJ Carrasco as the fifth starter and Adam Russell/Lance Broadway pitching in spots that Carrasco can be in...it's on Kenny. Paul Byrd is a pretty good pitcher and has shown the ability to pitch at the cell.

If KW puts in a claim, who knows if the Indians actually trade him to us, but at the very least we would have ensured he'd would have stayed in Cleveland.

I think its absurd that people such as you think that wanting to acquire a pitcher to improve a staff whose ERA has been over 6 the past month makes someone a "coward of a fan." Get your head out of the coulds. This team is deeply flawed. We may win the division. Hell we may win the World Series. But to think this team doesn't have room to improve is moronic.
Show me where I called anyone a "coward of a fan". After that, show me where I said this team is without flaws. My point is, I think I'll try and put my trust in the person who is actually the GM of the White Sox, not someone like you who wishes he was. :wink:

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 04:58 PM
Do you work for the White Sox? Are you one of their accountants or financial advisors? No! Then you have absolutely no idea what their in-house salary constraints may or may not be.

Again, I'll trust the GM who constructed a World Series winner over the opinion of an armchair GM on the net.
Well we're talking two different opinions here.

Your opinion is that KW is telling the truth when he basically says that Carrasco, with 242 MLB IP under his belt and formerly of Japanese baseball, and Lance Broadway, who sucks in Triple A, are better options than Paul Byrd who has posted a 4.39 ERA over 13 seasons in the Major Leagues and has been throwing very well lately.

My opinion is that KW says these things because people like you will not question them. I tend to think that adding a player who was making $12.5 million this year without cutting salary and while already having a pretty high payroll pretty much ended any ability for KW to take on salary.

But you go ahead and believe the spin. It obviously makes a lot more sense that in a pennant race, Lance Broadway and DJ Carrasco are better bets than Paul Byrd. :scratch:

Noneck
08-12-2008, 04:59 PM
Look at the Sox current pitching staff, if anyone does not think that both Byrd and Bradford are better for the stretch drive than 2 current roster pitchers, they are delusional. The only explanation that neither were taken has to be penny pinching.

spawn
08-12-2008, 04:59 PM
Even if he requested not to be traded to us or if CLE would not have traded him to us (which may be likely) the Sox still could have put in a claim. That would have meant either he was traded to the WS or to no one. They didn't even try. Best case we get an actual major league starter in our rotation instead of bullpen guy. Worst case, we block him from Boston. That's the point.
So if you were the GM, you would've put in a waiver claim against any player who could help out the White Sox or any other club? So KW probably knew by using his powers to see into the future to see when Contreras wa going to rupture his achilles. When he sees that, he can then put a claim in on Byrd and hope that Cleveland would be stupid enough to trade him to a team within the division. Makes sense to me!:redneck

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Your point is.....

Who gives a **** what the preseason predictions are.

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Look at the Sox current pitching staff, if anyone does not think that both Byrd and Bradford are better for the stretch drive than 2 current roster pitchers, they are delusional. The only explanation that neither were taken has to be penny pinching.
Yeah, that's got to be the only reason.:rolleyes:

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:01 PM
Who gives a **** what the preseason predictions are.
Pre-season predictions weren't the reason I made the post I made. but thanks for playing.:wink:

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 05:03 PM
Show me where I called anyone a "coward of a fan". After that, show me where I said this team is without flaws. My point is, I think I'll try and put my trust in the person who is actually the GM of the White Sox, not someone like you who wishes he was. :wink:

"The person is in a position of power so he must know what is best. I'll just go along."

Do you realize how dangerous that type of thinking is in genaral? If not, open a history book.

Yes there may be some unseen reason why Kenny has not done anything to replace Jose other than acquire Horacio Ramierez (a move I like) to replace Carrasco...but someone that watches almost every Sox game, someone that watches a ton of other MLB, a person that has a brain, has the right to question thiss logic. I mean ****, our bullpen is beginning to look more and more like our bullpen in 2007...if you're OK with that...great. I prefer to use my brain and question things that don't make sense and to at least pry as to what their rationale might be. If you want to accept things on face value, go for it...it doesn't really work for me.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 05:04 PM
I love when all of the armchair GM's make an appearance!:bandance::bandance::bandance:

All I'm going to say is this team was supposed to be 4th or 5th in the division according to all of the experts here and elsewhere. The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

Pre-season predictions weren't the reason I made the post I made. but thanks for playing.:wink:

Actually, its "all" you were saying.

kba
08-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Even if he requested not to be traded to us or if CLE would not have traded him to us (which may be likely) the Sox still could have put in a claim. That would have meant either he was traded to the WS or to no one. They didn't even try. Best case we get an actual major league starter in our rotation instead of bullpen guy. Worst case, we block him from Boston. That's the point.

But at the time that Byrd was put through waivers (before August 7), there wasn't a bullpen guy in the Sox rotation. Contreras ruptured his achilles August 9.

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:07 PM
"The person is in a position of power so he must know what is best. I'll just go along."

Do you realize how dangerous that type of thinking is in genaral? If not, open a history book.

Please don't try the "open a history book" line...it just doesn't fly with me. I'm not one for conformity. I don't trust people easily or willingly. I just put my trust in the GM who I believe to be doing his best to put a competetive team on the field. Until he has a track record of failing to do that, I will continue to put my faith in him. Don't like it? I really don't give a ****. :wink:

bluestar
08-12-2008, 05:07 PM
Even if he requested not to be traded to us or if CLE would not have traded him to us (which may be likely) the Sox still could have put in a claim. That would have meant either he was traded to the WS or to no one. They didn't even try. Best case we get an actual major league starter in our rotation instead of bullpen guy. Worst case, we block him from Boston. That's the point.

Who do you decide to claim and not claim? Or do you advocate putting in a claim on every player that you want to block from another team? That might work if you have an unlimited budget, which I am pretty sure KW does not have.

There was no strongly compelling reason for the Sox to claim Byrd off waivers and risk taking on the remainder of his salary before Contreras was lost for the season.

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:08 PM
Actually, its "all" you were saying.
No, my point was this:
The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

Pay attention next time.:wink:

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 05:08 PM
So if you were the GM, you would've put in a waiver claim against any player who could help out the White Sox or any other club? So KW probably knew by using his powers to see into the future to see when Contreras wa going to rupture his achilles. When he sees that, he can then put a claim in on Byrd and hope that Cleveland would be stupid enough to trade him to a team within the division. Makes sense to me!:redneck

This team was short an arm before Jose Contreras got hurt.

And yes I would put in claims to prevent other teams from getting better. It happens all the time, you just don't hear about it.

And you act like trades in the division never happen. As I mentioned, Cle probably would not have traded him in the division...but they would not have had any other choice...so at the very least he would not have been traded to Boston. Waiver trades for above average starting pitchers are not suppossed to be this easy. Hell, I'm sure we've been blocked on multiple trades since Jose went down.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 05:09 PM
What I've researched is that ever since Byrd is off the HGH, he sucks.
Um, check out his ERA over the last 30 days (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=111838)

Look at his game log
(http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=11183 8&statType=2)
If Lance Broadway pitched like that in a full year, people would be calling him our future #3, not a possible #5. Broadway isn't that good, at all, and people underestimating the value of a veteran Major League 4th starter have probably forgotten all about the 2003 season.

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:09 PM
Who do you decide to claim and not claim? Or do you advocate putting in a claim on every player that you want to block from another team? That might work if you have an unlimited budget, which I am pretty sure KW does not have.

There was no strongly compelling reason for the Sox to claim Byrd off waivers and risk taking on the remainder of his salary before Contreras was lost for the season.
What's wrong with you, interjecting reason into this thread? For shame!:redneck

This has been quite the entertaining thread! :rolling:

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 05:19 PM
What's wrong with you, interjecting reason into this thread? For shame!:redneck

This has been quite the entertaining thread! :rolling:

I'm glad you're entertained...really I am. The funny thing is, I'm a pretty big KW supporter. I just think in this case, I would have put a claim on Byrd, a) to get him as insurance (Jose still wasn't back and we were throwing Richar out there when Byrd cleared waivers...we also had a BAD Javy and two very young starters that have never pitched this much before), b) if we did not need him in the rotation, he could at least provide some help in the pen c) if we weren't able to work out a trade, at least prevent him from going to Boston....this wouldn't have been the purpose of the trade, but a silver lining if the trade could not be worked out.

When you make statements boiling down to"I trust Kenny just because he's the GM" it contributes a lot. It really does.

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:21 PM
I'm glad you're entertained...really I am.
Thanks. You've been a major source of my entertainment. I appreciate it.:redneck

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 05:24 PM
No, my point was this:
The fact that we're talking about acquring players instead of trading them away renews my faith in KW and his abilities as a GM.

Pay attention next time.:wink:

I'm pretty sure we could be talking about acquiring players instead of trading them away regardless of how the team is doing and has nothing to do with the abilities of the GM. In fact, whenever you trade someone, you "acquire" a player.

But thanks :wink:

russ99
08-12-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't mind Kenny passing on Byrd (and who's to say the Indians had any desire whatsoever to send him to a rival team anyway) or passing on Washburn, because they are flawed players.

But there is a disturbing coincidence, and that's that the Sox seem to have no interest in picking up any additional salary, especially for next year. Maybe Griffey's deal pushed Jerry over the edge, who knows.

But if we expect Carrasco to be a solid 5th starter all through half of August and all of September, I'm afraid we'll be sitting at home in October.

I hope Kenny isn't done...

spawn
08-12-2008, 05:27 PM
I'm pretty sure we could be talking about acquiring players instead of trading them away regardless of how the team is doing and has nothing to do with the abilities of the GM. In fact, whenever you trade someone, you "acquire" a player.

But thanks :wink:
Technically, you are correct. But anyone that's watched the White Sox the last few years probably understood exactly what I meant. That includes you. Right now, you're just trying to save face. You get a 'C' for effort. I would've given you a higher grade, but it really wasn't that good of an effort.:wink:

Crede24Thome25
08-12-2008, 05:28 PM
I would love to see the sox try and go after Kyle Loshe since the cards are trying to get rid of him, but I highly doubt it seeing as Scott Boras is his agent.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 05:31 PM
I don't mind Kenny passing on Byrd (and who's to say the Indians had any desire whatsoever to send him to a rival team anyway) or passing on Washburn, because they are flawed players.

But there is a disturbing coincidence, and that's that the Sox seem to have no interest in picking up any additional salary, especially for next year. Maybe Griffey's deal pushed Jerry over the edge, who knows.

But if we expect Carrasco to be a solid 5th starter all through half of August and all of September, I'm afraid we'll be sitting at home in October.

I hope Kenny isn't done...
You have to credit JR though, I mean most owners with his kind of payroll don't authorize their GM's to take on that much salary at the deadline. I think this is just a case of KW needing to make a splash to reinvigorate his ballclub and spending all of what he was allowed to spend, and maybe even a little more, and then getting caught off guard by Contreras' injury. No one could have seen this coming.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Technically, you are correct. But anyone that's watched the White Sox the last few years probably understood exactly what I meant. That includes you. Right now, you're just trying to save face. You get a 'C' for effort. I would've given you a higher grade, but it really wasn't that good of an effort.:wink:

you're just being silly. I responded to your original post, you told me that wasn't what you were talking about. You then posted another statement which was flawed, at best. I pointed it out. Now you're grading me. I don't care about grades, I only come to school to get perfect attendance so i can get a voucher for a free white sox game. :wink:

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 05:33 PM
You have to credit JR though, I mean most owners with his kind of payroll don't authorize their GM's to take on that much salary at the deadline. I think this is just a case of KW needing to make a splash to reinvigorate his ballclub and spending all of what he was allowed to spend, and maybe even a little more, and then getting caught off guard by Contreras' injury. No one could have seen this coming.

While the specific injury might have been hard to see coming, its not exactly rocket science to think an older pitcher, already on the DL, might continue to be hurt/get hurt again.

TDog
08-12-2008, 05:41 PM
...
And yes I would put in claims to prevent other teams from getting better. It happens all the time, you just don't hear about it. ...

Does Byrd make the Red Sox better? I don't think so. I'm not sure teams below the Red Sox think so. If the Yankees didn't claim him, considering their resources and needs and tendency to have faith that anyone who is a failure elsewhere can perform as well as they ever did again if they don the Yankees pinstripes (see Richie Sexson), I'm not sure why fans are surprised the White Sox didn't claim him. Or even the Tigers.

It probably wouldn't have done any good claiming Byrd. The Indians probably wouldn't have dealt him to the White Sox and the deal would not have been worked out. I see no reason to claim him to prevent the Red Sox from getting Byrd. Why block a move the Red Sox want to make that won't help their team?

Noneck
08-12-2008, 05:49 PM
You have to credit JR though, I mean most owners with his kind of payroll don't authorize their GM's to take on that much salary at the deadline. I think this is just a case of KW needing to make a splash to reinvigorate his ballclub and spending all of what he was allowed to spend, and maybe even a little more, and then getting caught off guard by Contreras' injury. No one could have seen this coming.

If this is the case the chairman is very short sighted. No one is talking about long term money here, its short term money to create both long and short term profits. Getting resources now should keep the team more competitive the rest of the season and increase the gate. If it doesn't, at least it will produce good will and revenue for the future.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 05:53 PM
I would love to see the sox try and go after Kyle Loshe since the cards are trying to get rid of him, but I highly doubt it seeing as Scott Boras is his agent.

Kyle Lohse is a 5.00 ERA waiting to happen.

Noneck
08-12-2008, 05:53 PM
The Indians probably wouldn't have dealt him to the White Sox and the deal would not have been worked out.

This may be correct but it was a no lose situation if they pulled him back.

Crede24Thome25
08-12-2008, 05:56 PM
Kyle Lohse is a 5.00 ERA waiting to happen.


Come on it hasn't happened yet it's a risk I would be willing to take. He has been nothing but filthy for the cardinals. I don't think he can hurt us as much as you think.

TDog
08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
This may be correct but it was a no lose situation if they pulled him back.

I see it as a no-lose situation for the Indians to deal him to a team ahead of the White Sox.

kba
08-12-2008, 05:59 PM
Does Byrd make the Red Sox better? I don't think so. I'm not sure teams below the Red Sox think so. If the Yankees didn't claim him, considering their resources and needs and tendency to have faith that anyone who is a failure elsewhere can perform as well as they ever did again if they don the Yankees pinstripes (see Richie Sexson), I'm not sure why fans are surprised the White Sox didn't claim him. Or even the Tigers.

It probably wouldn't have done any good claiming Byrd. The Indians probably wouldn't have dealt him to the White Sox and the deal would not have been worked out. I see no reason to claim him to prevent the Red Sox from getting Byrd. Why block a move the Red Sox want to make that won't help their team?

Either Paul Byrd isn't highly regarded by most GMs or there's something else going on here that we don't know. Otherwise, you've got to believe the Yankees would have jumped at him. They have a hole in their rotation, they have money to spend, and they have a far stronger incentive than the White Sox do to block him from going to Boston.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 06:00 PM
While the specific injury might have been hard to see coming, its not exactly rocket science to think an older pitcher, already on the DL, might continue to be hurt/get hurt again.

If that's the case KW should have backup plans for Griffey, Konerko, Thome, Dye, Crede, probably Quentin with all his issues in the past, etc. You can't cover that many spots, and as much money as veteran players cost, you can't afford to save money for a 6th starter when you need to improve an already veteran team with a high payroll.

If this is the case the chairman is very short sighted. No one is talking about long term money here, its short term money to create both long and short term profits. Getting resources now should keep the team more competitive the rest of the season and increase the gate. If it doesn't, at least it will produce good will and revenue for the future.
We don't know how much JR is or isn't making though, so I think it's unfair to criticize his judgement. I do agree that if Paul Byrd gets you two more wins out of the 5th starter spot than you'd get with Carrasco/Broadway/someone else if both of those guys fail, and if those two extra wins put you in the playoffs, the amount remaining on Byrd's contract pays for itself.

It's just hard to say though about JR, I mean maybe JR didn't want to add more than $5M to the payroll as it was, but KW talked to him, and JR agreed to add another $7.5 on top of that because he though Griffey would sell some more seats and maybe he'd make some of that back. But if say adding a guy like Washburn or Byrd would put JR at $10 more than he wanted to go in the first place, I could see that being denied.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Either Paul Byrd isn't highly regarded by most GMs or there's something else going on here that we don't know. Otherwise, you've got to believe the Yankees would have jumped at him. They have a hole in their rotation, they have money to spend, and they have a far stronger incentive than the White Sox do to block him from going to Boston.

Why would the Yankees jump at him? They're falling out of the playoff picture.

The Yanks added Nady and Marte, two players that will help them now and next year (Marte has an option), they also went after Washburn who has a contract through '09, and they traded a sucky reliever that they've been trying to move for a while for Ivan Rodriguez who will be worth draft picks after the season to help out the farm. All the Yankees' moves have been for the future just as much as for the present.

Byrd wouldn't do the Yankees any good as he's a FA after the year and the Yanks need a lot more help than what Byrd can offer. Byrd was just a great fit for the Sox because they don't need all that much help to get past the Twins.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 06:13 PM
If that's the case KW should have backup plans for Griffey, Konerko, Thome, Dye, Crede, probably Quentin with all his issues in the past, etc. You can't cover that many spots, and as much money as veteran players cost, you can't afford to save money for a 6th starter when you need to improve an already veteran team with a high payroll.


ONLY Jose was both a) old and b) on the DL when this all went down. Thats not that many spots to cover.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 06:27 PM
ONLY Jose was both a) old and b) on the DL when this all went down. Thats not that many spots to cover.
And all indications were that KW was looking for a SP. He was linked to Duchscherer, Burnett, Lannan from WSH, and I'm sure he talked with other clubs as well. At the time, Jose was looking like he was going to come back healthy, so KW had to make the decision between 1) dealing for a guy who is worse than Contreras just as backup, 2) overpaying for a better SP by probably giving up both Fields and Poreda and maybe more if there even was a fit, or 3) making a splash with Griffey.

Option 1 probably doesn't cost much in terms of talent, but at the time it looked unnecessary and adding salary would only hurt his ability to make other deals. This only looks like a good idea in hindsight.

Option 2 could help a lot but also hurt a ton, especially over the 2008-2009 offseason when Kenny would have nothing to trade to improve the team. If the Sox picked up a pitcher but didn't make the playoffs or get past the first round of the playoffs and then couldn't make another meaningful deal because of it he would have been roasted by Sox fans.

Option 3 is what he went for, and it excited a lot of Sox fans and it appears to have lit a fire under Paul Konerko's ass. It's also helped to keep his sluggers fresh while still running out a potent lineup. Kenny still has room to work over the offseason now.

The bottom line is it wasn't an easy decision for him and it only looks like a no-brainer to some people after Jose got injured. Had Contreras not re-injured himself we'd have Byrd eating innings out of the bullpen and maybe picking up some extra time covering for Danks and Floyd, but then we probably don't have Griffey to rest our offense.

Fenway
08-12-2008, 06:31 PM
Theo explains the move

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1185086463/bclid570307436/bctid1716456328

Brian26
08-12-2008, 07:45 PM
I'll respect's KW's opinion on this. He may know something that we don't know about Byrd.

I like the move for Boston. Anytime you can stick a guy in at #4 or 5 with this much recent playoff experience, it's a good thing.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm not saying we definitely should have traded for him. Im saying that whenever he was put on waivers, we should have claimed him. if they wanted to trade for something of value, I'd have understood KW passing. But not to put in a claim when the only downside is that we'll have to pay 1.5 months of his salary, is incredibly baffling considering the context of our rotation and our bullpen at THAT time (im not talking in hindsight).

KW may be right, and Byrd may not do well. But the red sox getting someone performing well and with recent playoff experience (like another poster mentioned) is not good news when we could have easily a)blocked it or b)had the man ourselves to gamble with. We're gambling with people like Richard, but not Byrd? come on now.


And all indications were that KW was looking for a SP. He was linked to Duchscherer, Burnett, Lannan from WSH, and I'm sure he talked with other clubs as well. At the time, Jose was looking like he was going to come back healthy, so KW had to make the decision between 1) dealing for a guy who is worse than Contreras just as backup, 2) overpaying for a better SP by probably giving up both Fields and Poreda and maybe more if there even was a fit, or 3) making a splash with Griffey.

Option 1 probably doesn't cost much in terms of talent, but at the time it looked unnecessary and adding salary would only hurt his ability to make other deals. This only looks like a good idea in hindsight.

Option 2 could help a lot but also hurt a ton, especially over the 2008-2009 offseason when Kenny would have nothing to trade to improve the team. If the Sox picked up a pitcher but didn't make the playoffs or get past the first round of the playoffs and then couldn't make another meaningful deal because of it he would have been roasted by Sox fans.

Option 3 is what he went for, and it excited a lot of Sox fans and it appears to have lit a fire under Paul Konerko's ass. It's also helped to keep his sluggers fresh while still running out a potent lineup. Kenny still has room to work over the offseason now.

The bottom line is it wasn't an easy decision for him and it only looks like a no-brainer to some people after Jose got injured. Had Contreras not re-injured himself we'd have Byrd eating innings out of the bullpen and maybe picking up some extra time covering for Danks and Floyd, but then we probably don't have Griffey to rest our offense.

It's Time
08-12-2008, 07:56 PM
Byrd stinks, meh.

It's Time
08-12-2008, 07:57 PM
meh

WhiteSoxOnly
08-12-2008, 08:10 PM
I'm not saying we definitely should have traded for him. Im saying that whenever he was put on waivers, we should have claimed him. if they wanted to trade for something of value, I'd have understood KW passing. But not to put in a claim when the only downside is that we'll have to pay 1.5 months of his salary, is incredibly baffling considering the context of our rotation and our bullpen at THAT time (im not talking in hindsight).

KW may be right, and Byrd may not do well. But the red sox getting someone performing well and with recent playoff experience (like another poster mentioned) is not good news when we could have easily a)blocked it or b)had the man ourselves to gamble with. We're gambling with people like Richard, but not Byrd? come on now.

I'm baffled as well on this one,especially with the way he has turned his season around the last few starts with that mess behind him.Hopefully
Kenny kicked the tires on this and found out that Shapiro just wanted
way to much in return.But he would have helped i think.I'd trust him
before Vasquez for sure.

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 08:16 PM
I'm not saying we definitely should have traded for him. Im saying that whenever he was put on waivers, we should have claimed him. if they wanted to trade for something of value, I'd have understood KW passing. But not to put in a claim when the only downside is that we'll have to pay 1.5 months of his salary, is incredibly baffling considering the context of our rotation and our bullpen at THAT time (im not talking in hindsight).

KW may be right, and Byrd may not do well. But the red sox getting someone performing well and with recent playoff experience (like another poster mentioned) is not good news when we could have easily a)blocked it or b)had the man ourselves to gamble with. We're gambling with people like Richard, but not Byrd? come on now.
If KW had the authorization to put the claim in and assume the remainder of his salary and he didn't do it, then I agree with you and shame on our GM. I don't buy this "fit for our park" **** when we're throwing guys out there that aren't fit for any park.

champagne030
08-12-2008, 08:17 PM
Does Byrd make the Red Sox better?

Yes, they replace Buchholz with Byrd. It's an upgrade for a team we currently trail in the WC race. And we could have, at minimum, prevented this trade.

It probably wouldn't have done any good claiming Byrd. The Indians probably wouldn't have dealt him to the White Sox and the deal would not have been worked out. You're probably correct, but we had nothing to lose and plenty to gain.

I see no reason to claim him to prevent the Red Sox from getting Byrd. Why block a move the Red Sox want to make that won't help their team?See above. This move clearly made the Red Sox better.

TDog
08-12-2008, 08:40 PM
Yes, they replace Buchholz with Byrd. It's an upgrade for a team we currently trail in the WC race. And we could have, at minimum, prevented this trade.
...

I am more impressed with the fact that the Yankees didn't put in a claim for him than the argument you make.

kba
08-12-2008, 08:45 PM
Why would the Yankees jump at him? They're falling out of the playoff picture.

The Yanks added Nady and Marte, two players that will help them now and next year (Marte has an option), they also went after Washburn who has a contract through '09, and they traded a sucky reliever that they've been trying to move for a while for Ivan Rodriguez who will be worth draft picks after the season to help out the farm. All the Yankees' moves have been for the future just as much as for the present.

Byrd wouldn't do the Yankees any good as he's a FA after the year and the Yanks need a lot more help than what Byrd can offer. Byrd was just a great fit for the Sox because they don't need all that much help to get past the Twins.

On August 4, which would have been about the time that Byrd passed through waivers, the Yankees were 2 1/2 games out in the wild card race and 5 1/2 back in the East. Are you suggesting they had already given up on '08 and wouldn't have claimed Byrd if they thought he could help them win a few games in August and September??

champagne030
08-12-2008, 09:09 PM
I am more impressed with the fact that the Yankees didn't put in a claim for him than the argument you make.

I didn't try to make an argument, I stated a fact.:tiphat:

Optipessimism
08-12-2008, 10:36 PM
On August 4, which would have been about the time that Byrd passed through waivers, the Yankees were 2 1/2 games out in the wild card race and 5 1/2 back in the East. Are you suggesting they had already given up on '08 and wouldn't have claimed Byrd if they thought he could help them win a few games in August and September??
I didn't know Byrd went through waivers that early. You're right then, seems like a dumb move not to claim him. The Yanks always seem to have the money.

TDog
08-13-2008, 12:12 AM
I didn't try to make an argument, I stated a fact.:tiphat:

True, but finding fault in the White Sox not putting in a cliam for Byrd implies argument.

In any case, if Byrd were worth claiming, the Yankees would have claimed him.

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:56 AM
No one has brought up the Creep Factor. Just look at Byrd! Doesn't he remind you of someone's dirty uncle?

Thome25
08-13-2008, 08:36 AM
If Kenny Williams didn't think Byrd worth claiming I have no doubt he isn't worth claiming.

Bunch of gutless cowards who have no faith in our team and :whiner: about every pitcher who gets traded instead of believing in and encouraging our guys like Carrasco who has been a warrior for us since we got him.

I for one am very excited to see him in a starting role!

There's a difference between crying and being a realist. Now let's be realistic here and stop looking though rose colored glasses for a minute. Your opinion on the terrible state of our rotation is borderline "everything is rosy, the sun is shining, next year is here" Cub fan mentality.

Now back to the realism......A rotation consisiting of Buehrle, A struggling Javy, TWO young starters who haven't been in this situation before, and Carrasco is NOT a pennant contending rotation IMO. That's not to mention the state of our bullpen as of right now.

We needed another veteran starter to help our chances at making the playoffs let alone contend for the pennant. Now that I actually sat here and thought about it, IMO that rotation might have alot trouble even making the playoffs.

And that my friend isn't crying......it's called being realistic and seeing things for what they really are.