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View Full Version : *Official* More bullpen manure - Boston beats Sox - Series Split 2-2


Frater Perdurabo
08-11-2008, 11:01 PM
Well, that was worthwhile. :angry:

Danks should be allowed to give the rest of the team a beating.

thomas35forever
08-11-2008, 11:02 PM
Yes, I know a lot of baseball is left, but I hate falling out of first, especially since Danks lost a no-no too.

KnightSox
08-11-2008, 11:02 PM
What a waste of Danks, nice glove by Carlos.

I'll take the split.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:02 PM
Personally, I am done with the JR in CF idea. I don't want to see him out there anymore.

swish
08-11-2008, 11:02 PM
maybe not the rest of the team, but at least the bullpen

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Given how scarce quality starting pitching has been lately, it's a shame to waste such a great outing by Danks.

The bullpen sucked in the ninth, but Griffey was no help letting that blooper by Bay fall in. Swisher would have had it. Wise would have had it. Anderson would have had it. Hell, Mackowiak might have had it.

thomas35forever
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Personally, I am done with the JR in CF idea. I don't want to see him out there anymore.
Well you better brace yourself then because you're going to see plenty of it over these final weeks.

Vienna
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Tough loss. Danks looked great, but no one picked him up. Looks like the offense just rolled over. This is frustrating. Some times they look like the best team in baseball and other times they look like they just don't care...or are too old to get to some fly balls (cough) Griffey (cough).

cheezheadsoxfan
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
I sweep of Kansas City would be very welcome.

Patrick134
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Good series,a lot of people were predicting a series loss, and it didn't happen. Danks keeps improving, great stuff. Let's win the KC series and move on.

soltrain21
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
I know this team is only a half game out of first, but I really hope we are built differently next year.

We need to be able to manufacture runs.

tdwiek
08-11-2008, 11:03 PM
What happened with JR? Unfortunately, I was delegated to mobile phone access which doesn't show me any details...

ms620
08-11-2008, 11:04 PM
Overall pretty good series considering the injury bug, and the fact that the Sox faced 3 of the top pitchers in the AL. It is tough to beat a good team 3 out of 4, just like it is tough to sweep a good team. They could have won every game.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:04 PM
I want a sweep of the Royals. Twins are playing the Yanks, we need to sweep KC and maybe put some distance between the Twins and us. Hopefully the Yanks will help us out.

kidmccarthy
08-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Three things. Danks should have been taken out after he gave up the no hitter. He never gets through the 7th without damage. Griffey has no place on this team. His reads are awful, and his makeup speed is non-existent. Finally, If I hear one more person say the Twins are gonna fade, I will drive to your house and punch you. Seriously, when do the Twins ever fade. Go get a sweep verse them Royals!

turners56
08-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Blah, back in second again. The Twins, who shutout the Yanks on 4 hits, are using that terrible backdrop to an advantage again. I hate that dome. If it wasn't for bad hitting and a bad bullpen for two games, we would of swept. :(

Woofer
08-11-2008, 11:06 PM
What happened with JR? Unfortunately, I was delegated to mobile phone access which doesn't show me any details...
Flew out to right to end it. Or were you asking, what's happened to him? He got old.

hi im skot
08-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Ugh.

stillz
08-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Griffey needs to get it in gear.

Cuck the Fubs
08-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Wow..........

Calm down folks......I feel the need to remind you all we faced Josh Beckett tonight, not some no name scrub.

Danks pitched a hell of a game, I'll take the split given the pitching match ups and so forth.

Now let's sweep the Royals.

.5 out of first isn't the end of the world, it's going to be a fight to the finish, so you all better get used to it now!

tdwiek
08-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Flew out to right to end it. Or were you asking, what's happened to him? He got old.

Just wondering if he made an error, or was just too slow to get to the ball. Unfortunately, you are right, he did get old. I keep wanting to see that old Ken Griffey of yesterday.. Can we have 4 outfielders like in softball?

thomas35forever
08-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Griffey needs to get it in gear.
The bullpen needs to get it in gear more. Griffey's only one person. If the bullpen doesn't improve, this team will be playing golf in October.

southsideirish71
08-11-2008, 11:09 PM
Considering the only reason Anderson is on the team is as a defensive replacement, lets try a novel idea and rotate him out there, and spell the 38 year old corner OF who hasn't played CF in 2 years. One run game, and a no hitter going on, and we trot him out there in the 7th inning. Its one thing to start the guy, its another not to use your defensive replacements.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:11 PM
Considering the only reason Anderson is on the team is as a defensive replacement, lets try a novel idea and rotate him out there, and spell the 38 year old corner OF who hasn't played CF in 2 years. One run game, and a no hitter going on, and we trot him out there in the 7th inning. Its one thing to start the guy, its another not to use your defensive replacements.

If you're gonna make the switch as early as the seventh inning, there's no point in putting Griffey in CF at all.

I'm leaning toward not putting Griffey in CF at all. He looks like a serious downgrade from Swisher.

kidmccarthy
08-11-2008, 11:12 PM
Considering the only reason Anderson is on the team is as a defensive replacement, lets try a novel idea and rotate him out there, and spell the 38 year old corner OF who hasn't played CF in 2 years. One run game, and a no hitter going on, and we trot him out there in the 7th inning. Its one thing to start the guy, its another not to use your defensive replacements.

Great point. Anderson has barely sniffed the field since that trade. At least the 8-9 innings should be his for sure.

stillz
08-11-2008, 11:12 PM
If the bullpen doesn't improve, this team will be playing golf in October.

Agreed. The starters need to roll as well.

Right in the hunt with 6 weeks to go... it's a good time to be a sox fan.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:14 PM
If you're gonna make the switch as early as the seventh inning, there's no point in putting Griffey in CF at all.

I'm leaning toward not putting Griffey in CF at all. He looks like a serious downgrade from Swisher.
I agree. Do not put him in CF anymore. Let him spell Thome when he needs a break.

Hitmen77
08-11-2008, 11:14 PM
The offense let us down as much as the bullpen. Tough to win when you only score 1 run. I know Beckett is good, but the Sox need to score/manufacture runs even against good pitching.

A frustrating out for me was Thome hitting the ball very hard with 2 runners on and Crisp making a good catch on it. If that falls in, it's a game-changer. Sox may have gotten 2 runs out of that and we'd probably bring in Jenks with a 3-2 lead in the 9th instead of bringing in Russell.

I'm not happy w/ Griffey being in CF either, but that play didn't cost us the game. Even if he makes that catch...and assuming no other runs score in that inning, we still lose.

Mohoney
08-11-2008, 11:16 PM
I hope this is just a dead arm phase for Matt Thornton, and that he can get through it and go back to pitching like he was earlier in the year. Lightening his workload needs to seriously be considered now that Horacio Ramirez is here. The lefty-lefty thing just needs to be scrapped for the time being.

Vienna
08-11-2008, 11:16 PM
Considering the only reason Anderson is on the team is as a defensive replacement, lets try a novel idea and rotate him out there, and spell the 38 year old corner OF who hasn't played CF in 2 years. One run game, and a no hitter going on, and we trot him out there in the 7th inning. Its one thing to start the guy, its another not to use your defensive replacements.

Given there's only .005 difference in there batting averages right now, I don't see what you lose in putting Anderson out there...for the whole game or for defensive purposes. I think Griffey will be "rested" tomorrow.

Frater Perdurabo
08-11-2008, 11:19 PM
The Sox three best power hitters play LF, RF and DH.

Pitching was the most pressing need, so KW acquired a corner OF/DH to play CF.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:21 PM
The Sox three best power hitters play LF, RF and DH.

Pitching was the most pressing need, so KW acquired a corner OF/DH to play CF.
I'm still trying to figure it out too?:scratch:

SoxSpeed22
08-11-2008, 11:22 PM
Danks and Beckett both did their jobs. Winning yesterday was real important because Beckett was pitching tonight. We got more than we could've asked for out of Danks. If the entire pitching staff doesn't rebound, we're screwed anyway.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:22 PM
The Sox three best power hitters play LF, RF and DH.

Pitching was the most pressing need, so KW acquired a corner OF/DH to play CF.

I'm frustrated with Griffey because I saw an unwillingness to pay the price on that bloop in the ninth.

TCQ made a great catch to save a run to end the top of the eighth. He put his body on the line and dove for it, because that's what the team needed him to do.

In the ninth, Griffey pulls up to play the ball on a short hop. For God's sake, at least try to make the catch. I can deal with it if he gives maximum effort and fails to make the grab.

Patrick134
08-11-2008, 11:22 PM
The Sox three best power hitters play LF, RF and DH.

Pitching was the most pressing need, so KW acquired a corner OF/DH to play CF.


How much quality pitching moved anywhere ? Take into account that sabathia wasn't going to the same division.

WhiteSox5187
08-11-2008, 11:23 PM
A couple of thoughts:

The Good: We split a series with Boston! Buerhle looked great! Danks looked great! Floyd (with the exception of two hanging curveballs which you might get away with to another team) looked good.

The bad: We lost Jose and don't really have a solid replacement as of yet. The bullpen is in disarray with the exception of Dotel (who can be shakey at times) and Jenks (always solid). We NEED Linebrink back! We're in second place.

I'm not going to sweat falling .5 a game back, what makes me mad in this loss is that Danks got tagged with it and he looked great. I have a problem tipping my hat to the no names who shut us down, but I don't have a problem with tipping my hat to Josh Beckett. He looked great and shut us down. But we stood toe to toe with a team that everyone thinks is going to play in October and held our own. I'll take that everytime. While it would be nice if New York would help us, they look like they're about ready to call it a season, so I think we just have to focus on winning. Minnesota isn't going to win out the rest of the way and they have a long hard road trip coming up a head of them. Let's take care of buisness and let Minnesota do the choking!

WhiteSox5187
08-11-2008, 11:24 PM
I'm frustrated with Griffey because I saw an unwillingness to pay the price on that bloop in the ninth.

TCQ made a great catch to save a run to end the top of the eighth. He put his body on the line and dove for it, because that's what the team needed him to do.

In the ninth, Griffey pulls up to play the ball on a short hop. For God's sake, at least try to make the catch. I can deal with it if he gives maximum effort and fails to make the grab.
The problem is Griffey is not a CF. He should never be in CF past the seventh.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:26 PM
How much quality pitching moved anywhere ? Take into account that sabathia wasn't going to the same division.
The point is we don't need Jr. He brings nothing to the team that we didn't already have. Him and Thome are basically the same player. Left handed power hitter who is a liability in the field.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:28 PM
The problem is Griffey is not a CF. He should never be in CF past the seventh.

As I said earlier, if that's the case, then he should never be in CF.

Vienna
08-11-2008, 11:28 PM
The point is we don't need Jr. He brings nothing to the team that we didn't already have. Him and Thome are basically the same player. Left handed power hitter who is a liability in the field.

Washburn for Jr? I know that will ruffle some feathers...and it won't happen, but felt compelled to post it.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:28 PM
The point is we don't need Jr. He brings nothing to the team that we didn't already have. Him and Thome are basically the same player. Left handed power hitter who is a liability in the field.

Except Thome is a better hitter at this stage of their respective careers.

Jerko
08-11-2008, 11:30 PM
I agree about Linebrink, he was so solid we got spoiled there. In the 23 games since the break, the Sox have given up 8th inning runs 11 times. That was unheard of in the first half. I know injuries are part of the game, but, and I hate to use cliches, somebody better step up until he comes back. :(:

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:31 PM
Except Thome is a better hitter at this stage of their respective careers.
I agree. But now Ozzie is obligated to play him in CF, because KW told him that is where he is gonna get the most playing time. KW was hoping that his instincts would make up for the fact he is slow and has leg problems. That isn't the case. To me he looks totally lost out there.

Tragg
08-11-2008, 11:31 PM
Washburn for Jr? I know that will ruffle some feathers...and it won't happen, but felt compelled to post it.
Washburn shoujld basically come for free considering that salary.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-11-2008, 11:32 PM
Three things. Danks should have been taken out after he gave up the no hitter. He never gets through the 7th without damage. Griffey has no place on this team. His reads are awful, and his makeup speed is non-existent. Finally, If I hear one more person say the Twins are gonna fade, I will drive to your house and punch you. Seriously, when do the Twins ever fade. Go get a sweep verse them Royals!

The Twins are going to fade. They play 24 of 30 on the road starting Aug. 21.

(You're going to have to drive to Lexington, Kentucky, to punch me.)

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:32 PM
Washburn shoujld basically come for free considering that salary.

Kenny doesn't think Washburn can pitch effectively at USCF. Doesn't seem likely to happen.

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:33 PM
Washburn for Jr? I know that will ruffle some feathers...and it won't happen, but felt compelled to post it.
Washburn isn't coming here.

thomas35forever
08-11-2008, 11:33 PM
Kenny doesn't think Washburn can pitch effectively at USCF. Doesn't seem likely to happen.
Where was he quoted in saying that?

Frater Perdurabo
08-11-2008, 11:34 PM
How much quality pitching moved anywhere? Take into account that sabathia wasn't going to the same division.

General managers deserve credit for making good moves (Quentin, re-signing Dye, Alexei) but also deserve criticism when they make bad moves or moves that don't work out (Garland/Cabrera, Griffey).

Frankie5Angels
08-11-2008, 11:35 PM
Where was he quoted in saying that?
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3292777&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws&partnerId=rss_cws

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Where was he quoted in saying that?

Chris De Luca's Sox notebook tonight. Let me check and see if there's a link yet.

<JB heads to Sun-Times Web site>

cheezheadsoxfan
08-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Kenny doesn't think Washburn can pitch effectively at USCF. Doesn't seem likely to happen.

I've heard or read (don't remember where, maybe here) that Washburn gets a lot of long fly ball outs. At the Cell that doesn't sound too appealing.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:38 PM
I've heard or read (don't remember where, maybe here) that Washburn gets a lot of long fly ball outs. At the Cell that doesn't sound too appealing.

I haven't looked at any data on the issue, but having seen Washburn pitch for years in the AL, he's a fastball pitcher who gets a lot of flyouts.

champagne030
08-11-2008, 11:38 PM
As I said earlier, if that's the case, then he should never be in CF.

Did you not watch 2006? Oswaldo thought it was cool to play Mack in CF. Maybe you forgot 2007 and GrindErstad. You're barking up the wrong tree with our manager.......

KyWhiSoxFan
08-11-2008, 11:39 PM
The bullpen has been bad lately. Even if Danks got out of the 7th unscathed, the pen still had two innings to pitch and they have not escaped without yielding a run very often in the last month. Without Linebrink, they are really struggling for consistency and have lost their equilibrium.

I would take my chances with a poor fifth starter if the other four starters were solid and the bullpen was solid.

Right now, the priority is getting the bullpen straightened out.

kidmccarthy
08-11-2008, 11:43 PM
The Twins are going to fade. They play 24 of 30 on the road starting Aug. 21.

(You're going to have to drive to Lexington, Kentucky, to punch me.)

Okay, you will have to pm me your address.:D:

cheezheadsoxfan
08-11-2008, 11:44 PM
Did you not watch 2006? Oswaldo thought it was cool to play Mack in CF. Maybe you forgot 2007 and GrindErstad. You're barking up the wrong tree with our manager.......

Ozzie was quoted the other day as saying "I believe in defense". He forgot the work "infield" in front of "defense".:rolleyes:

Foulke You
08-11-2008, 11:45 PM
I hope this is just a dead arm phase for Matt Thornton, and that he can get through it and go back to pitching like he was earlier in the year. Lightening his workload needs to seriously be considered now that Horacio Ramirez is here. The lefty-lefty thing just needs to be scrapped for the time being.
I agree completely that Thornton's workload needs to be dropped or the guy is going to have nothing left by the end of September. I think Boone Logan's suckage is why Ozzie kept going to Thornton but the guy should only be a 1 inning power setup arm. We've been using him for too many 2 inning outings and on short rest to boot. Hopefully, Horacio will be able to lighten his workload as you pointed out.

Foulke You
08-11-2008, 11:46 PM
Kenny doesn't think Washburn can pitch effectively at USCF. Doesn't seem likely to happen.
I would tend to agree with Kenny. Washburn's numbers haven't been good this year even pitching half his games at pitcher friendly Safeco. I don't think Washburn will give us anything we couldn't get from Carrasco or Broadway.

chisoxfanatic
08-11-2008, 11:53 PM
The momentum-shifter was Thome's liner being caught to end the 6th inning. If Crisp doesn't catch that, the Sox lead at least 3-0 going into the 7th.

Ozzie should've made a defensive replacement for the 9th inning with a tight ballgame. BA would've made that catch that Griffey "trapped" in front of him.

The Red Sox just took advantage when given the opportunities tonight.

Let's go and sweep Kansas City now. We don't have to face Greinke OR Miner in this series. Then again, Vazquez is pitching tomorrow night, and he's been our worst regular starter this season. He's reverted back to 2006 form.

champagne030
08-11-2008, 11:53 PM
I would tend to agree with Kenny. Washburn's numbers haven't been good this year even pitching half his games at pitcher friendly Safeco. I don't think Washburn will give us anything we couldn't get from Carrasco or Broadway.

His ERA on the road is 4.2. I wish Javy gave us that, let alone what dung we bring up to to fill the starter spot. DJ has a filled nice roll, why mess with it....

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:56 PM
I would tend to agree with Kenny. Washburn's numbers haven't been good this year even pitching half his games at pitcher friendly Safeco. I don't think Washburn will give us anything we couldn't get from Carrasco or Broadway.

I've been debating in my mind all day. Washburn has a hefty contract for next year too. Do we want him in the 2009 rotation as well? That's what gives me pause. I wouldn't mind having him as a stopgap for the rest of 2008, but I'm not sure I want to put up with him 30 times next season.

And I'm not convinced he's a better pitcher than Carrasco.

JB98
08-11-2008, 11:57 PM
Did you not watch 2006? Oswaldo thought it was cool to play Mack in CF. Maybe you forgot 2007 and GrindErstad. You're barking up the wrong tree with our manager.......

From what I've seen Erstad is a far better defensive CF than Griffey.

TDog
08-11-2008, 11:58 PM
The bullpen didn't lose the game tonight. Danks lost the game. He pitched a great game, but tonight's game demonstrates why Danks isn't an ace pitcher, at least an ace at the level that Beckett is.

If Danks gets out of the seventh with no runs scoring, Jenks sould have been in the game in the ninth.

I don't think Danks was a tough luck pitcher at all tonight. He had a good shot at getting through his seven innings without allowing any runs. He failed.

I don't think I'll ever get excited for Danks having a no-hitter going. You can't pitch a no-hitter if you can't pitch nine innings.

I hope I am wrong, because there is nothing I can do about White Sox personel, but it is beginning to look like critics of the Griffey trade were right. Fortunately the Sox didn't give up much for him. Right now, he doesn't look like he should be starting in the outfield. I don't see him replacing Thome on a regular basis at DH.

tstrike2000
08-11-2008, 11:58 PM
Everyone understandably is pointing at the pitching tonight, but we scored 1 run tonight. That's not going to cut it. If hitting with RISP doesn't improve, that's also putting pressure on our pitching.

jabrch
08-12-2008, 12:13 AM
Great outing by Danks. That's very encouraging!

SoxandtheCityTee
08-12-2008, 12:14 AM
Fwhew. Beautiful night out at the ballpark. Game went to hell in a handbasket pretty fast.

For some reason Griffey's non-catch bugged me the most.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 12:26 AM
1. John Danks once again showing why he's been our best SP this season.

2. To echo the sentiment from the winnable Matsuzaka game Sox pissed away in a similar fashion, failing to display a Champion's killer instinct..... While Boston may be downright underwhelming on the Road, they are still more experience and better coached, managed than the Sox. When you fail to put them away, they put you away. Simple as that.

3. Ozzie was rightfully bashed for failing to understand that Danks starts losing it around 85-90 pitches, but you can't blame him for leaving Danks in following the no-hit bid ending blooper by Youk. This time around, all it took is a momentary lapse in focus - walking slumping Lowell which it possible for Drew to come to bat with multiple RO. Credit Drew - unlike our hitters seemingly falling out of their shoes trying to go yard in similar situations against Matsuzaka and Beckett, Drew stayed inside the ball and even though it was a defensive count, he didn't get jammed or fouled it off.

4. Linebrink's absence certainly screws up the roles in the pen, but it doesn't change the fact that Matt Thornton (and Dotel, for that matter) is slowly but surely starting to pay the price for not having a consistently reliable breaking ball. This being the Major Leagues, not AAA, and all. Oh Don Cooper where the **** are you...

5. Though it's a better idea to wait for the off-season, I think I am ready for Alexei to be moved to #2 hole. Hopefully he shortens that swing a little more often in response to added responsibility atop the order.

6. Why can't Lance Broadway be our Kevin Slowey, or Chris Getz be out Dustin Pedroia or Ryan Theriot, again? Oh that's right, something about scouting & development.

7. Someone needs to tell Cabrera that if his BA exceeds .270, Dennis Hopper is not going to detonate a bomb.

8. Horatio Ramirez pick was timely; Carasco is an improvement over Wassermasset, afterall.

UofCSoxFan
08-12-2008, 12:50 AM
Great point. Anderson has barely sniffed the field since that trade. At least the 8-9 innings should be his for sure.

If we have the lead.

The whole point of having Griffey out there is for his bat. Why would you take him out in todays game in the top of the ninth when we were down a run and he was due up 2nd? That makes even less sense than having him out there in the first place.

Brewski
08-12-2008, 01:05 AM
If we have the lead.

The whole point of having Griffey out there is for his bat. Why would you take him out in todays game in the top of the ninth when we were down a run and he was due up 2nd? That makes even less sense than having him out there in the first place.

If we replace bat with reputation, the post make more sense. He's old, fat, slow, has lost his reaction time at the plate and in the field and is hurting the team. He will not be the regular CF at season's end, IMO. Any of the other CF choices give you more skills.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2008, 01:17 AM
The Sox three best power hitters play LF, RF and DH.

Pitching was the most pressing need, so KW acquired a corner OF/DH to play CF.

I'm still trying to figure it out too?:scratch:Maybe because EVERYBODY is looking for pitching? None of you know what, if any, efforts Kenny made to get pitching. Getting an aging slugger for the final drive is a classic move by a team in contention.

If I hear one more person say the Twins are gonna fade, I will drive to your house and punch you. Seriously, when do the Twins ever fade. Go get a sweep verse them Royals!Okay, when you get back from Kentucky, hop on I-90 west, stay on it until the MN Rte. 30 exit (the next one after Rochester), then go west on 30 for about 100 miles, then head north on MN 83 to Mankato ... :neener:

Foulke You
08-12-2008, 01:32 AM
I've been debating in my mind all day. Washburn has a hefty contract for next year too. Do we want him in the 2009 rotation as well? That's what gives me pause. I wouldn't mind having him as a stopgap for the rest of 2008, but I'm not sure I want to put up with him 30 times next season.

And I'm not convinced he's a better pitcher than Carrasco.
Good point. In addition to possibly being the same pitcher as Carrasco, Washburn wouldn't be a rent a player. We would be on the hook for 2009 as well. I suppose he could be '09 insurance if Contreras doesn't recover from his ACL. I don't know...I guess I could come around on a potential deal if you look at him strictly as an innings eater and a #5 which would be fine if Javy was throwing the ball like the #2 he is supposed to be.:mad: I'm going to trust KW and Rick Hahn's judgment on this one. These guys know more about pitching than we do and if they don't think he can pitch at The Cell then it probably isn't a good idea.

Frankfan4life
08-12-2008, 01:39 AM
I expected better than a split at home. Bad defense, batting and another bullpen suckfest led to the loss. I have one word to express my feelings about today's game:
Booooo!!!!!!!!!

JB98
08-12-2008, 01:43 AM
Good point. In addition to possibly being the same pitcher as Carrasco, Washburn wouldn't be a rent a player. We would be on the hook for 2009 as well. I suppose he could be '09 insurance if Contreras doesn't recover from his ACL. I don't know...I guess I could come around on a potential deal if you look at him strictly as an innings eater and a #5 which would be fine if Javy was throwing the ball like the #2 he is supposed to be.:mad: I'm going to trust KW and Rick Hahn's judgment on this one. These guys know more about pitching than we do and if they don't think he can pitch at The Cell then it probably isn't a good idea.

I don't think we can count on Contreras at all for 2009. Best-case scenario, he'd return around the All-Star break. Worse-case scenario, his career is over. So, we've got a hole to fill in the rotation for 2009, and I don't think Washburn is the guy we want. If we acquire him and his salary to plug a hole for 2008, we force ourselves into having him in our rotation for next year and we limit payroll flexibility. I'd much rather KW find someone better than Washburn to fill out the rotation for 2009.

Your comment about Vazquez is on the money. I think he is the biggest key for our playoff hopes. You can't be certain what you're gonna get from Floyd and Danks down the stretch. So far, so good, but the reality is they've never pitched this many innings in a big-league season before. Buehrle and Vazquez have to be rock solid for the remainder of the year, especially with Jose down.

I have tremendous faith in Mark Buehrle. Javier Vazquez, not so much. Javy hasn't been pitching well for awhile now.

TDog
08-12-2008, 01:46 AM
1. John Danks once again showing why he's been our best SP this season....

No, he didn't. Once again, Danks showed he's only good for about six innings, even when he's great.

Danks tends to loose his his effectiveness after six innings, regardless of his pitch count. If the Sox had scored four or five runs, they would have been in great shape. But Danks was going up against a pitcher pitching a great game, who was able to hold it together and go deeper. I don't know that Buehrle would have won tonight, Friday pitched a perfect seven and came out after giving up a leadoff single in the eighth, which the bullpen allowed to score. But Buehrle was a better pitcher for seven innings against the Red Sox than Danks was for seven innings against the Red Sox.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2008, 01:49 AM
... if Contreras doesn't recover from his ACL.Contreras doesn't have an ACL injury. He has a ruptured Achilles tendon. Completely different parts of the leg. I'll let someone more medically astute than I am comment on which takes longer to come back from.

jabrch
08-12-2008, 01:52 AM
Contreras doesn't have an ACL injury. He has a ruptured Achilles tendon. Completely different parts of the leg. I'll let someone more medically astute than I am comment on which takes longer to come back from.

Paging Dr. Beckett....

ACL - Knee ligament
Achillies Tendon - runs from heel to calf

JB98
08-12-2008, 01:54 AM
Contreras doesn't have an ACL injury. He has a ruptured Achilles tendon. Completely different parts of the leg. I'll let someone more medically astute than I am comment on which takes longer to come back from.

I'm not medically astute, but the reports say that Jose is lost for a minimum of nine months. That means the earliest he could get back on the mound would be sometime next May. Then, there would be a lengthy rehab assignment to get his arm back in shape. Sad to say, but I don't think we can count on him at all next year.

doublem23
08-12-2008, 01:55 AM
Paging Dr. Beckett....

ACL - Knee ligament
Achillies Tendon - runs from heel to calf

Ain't good either way.

SoxSpeed22
08-12-2008, 02:10 AM
I'd have to think that the achilles tendon is worse. As a pitcher, Jose would have to push off of his right leg, which uses the achilles tendon. He should also have calf problems if he comes back because the tendon connects the calf to the heal. The ACL also receives a better blood supply than the achilles tendon, which makes the ACL easier to heal after reconstruction. Plus tendons naturally take longer to heal than ligaments.
http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic1.htm

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2008, 03:07 AM
I'd have to think that the achilles tendon is worse. As a pitcher, Jose would have to push off of his right leg, which uses the achilles tendon.The injury was to his left Achilles.

I'm still waiting for a medical person (note I didn't say doctor; I'm a doctor and I don't know a damned thing about this) to comment on whether it takes longer to come back from an ACL or an Achilles.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 03:13 AM
No, he didn't.

John Danks, as imperfect a pitcher as he may be this early in his career, and despite Ozzie's mishandling in more than a few games.... still has had a better season than Mark Buerhle in 2008:

OPS-against:

Danks: 649
Buerhle: 744

RA (runs average)

Danks: 3.35
Buerhle: 4.58


What separates the two the most is Danks's far superior production in Road games: 5-1 record with only 21 runs given up in 68 innings of work... vs. 3-7 record with 52 runs surrendered in 79 innings for Buerhle. Danks is the only SP who consistently shows up away from USCF this year to pick up the oft-struggling offense, it seems.


.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 03:26 AM
The injury was to his left Achilles.

I'm still waiting for a medical person (note I didn't say doctor; I'm a doctor and I don't know a damned thing about this) to comment on whether it takes longer to come back from an ACL or an Achilles.

I don't think he'll be back before ASB of 2009 either way, but what matters right now is how likely that he'll be the same pitcher if and when he comes back.

ACL vs. Achilles? Is it anything like labrum tear vs. Tommy John. You're out of comission for a while either way, but are much more likely to come back fully from a TJ.

Tendon and ligament is not exactly the same thing, either obviously

TDog
08-12-2008, 04:34 AM
John Danks, as imperfect a pitcher as he may be this early in his career, and despite Ozzie's mishandling in more than a few games.... still has had a better season than Mark Buerhle in 2008:

OPS-against:

Danks: 649
Buerhle: 744

RA (runs average)

Danks: 3.35
Buerhle: 4.58


What separates the two the most is Danks's far superior production in Road games: 5-1 record with only 21 runs given up in 68 innings of work... vs. 3-7 record with 52 runs surrendered in 79 innings for Buerhle. Danks is the only SP who consistently shows up away from USCF this year to pick up the oft-struggling offense, it seems.


.

Buerle pitched better through seven innings on Friday night than Danks did though seven innings on Monday night. Danks had better stats. Run support is irrelevant. The fact that Danks didn't give up any hits in the first six innings he pitched is irrelevant. Buehlrle pitching against the same team gave up no runs through seven and Danks gave up two runs through sevneth.

If Buehrle has a no-hitter going thorugh six, he is a threat to pitch a no-hitter. I wasn't excited abotu Danks having a no-hitter going thorugh six, although I'm excited about the Sox having the lead.

If you can't win, good stats are irrelevant. Danks had his chance to win tonight, or at least leave the game with the lead. He didn't do it. That's what is so frustrating about Danks.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 05:28 AM
Buerle pitched better through seven innings on Friday night than Danks did though seven innings on Monday night.

Ok, I see you're not trying to argue that Buerhle has had a better year. Because as shown in previous post, it would be flat-out wrong. Danks has been clearly the more valuable pitcher of the two in '08 - which was my point.

He looked great today as well, but got beat by Drew's excellent swing. It's baseball, it happens.

Danks had better stats.

On the year, Danks unquestionably has better stats... Because, gasp, he's been better.

Especially on the Road, where production is at premium for obvious reasons.

Run support is irrelevant.

That's ridiculous. Buerhle pitching with a bigger lead increased his margin for error; it affected the complexion of each AB, pitch selection and, by extension, pitch quality.

(For the record, RA I quoted is pitcher's run average, NOT run support. I do not recognise the concept of an unearned run - any more than there is an unearned INT in football, unearned goal in hockey or an unearned 3-pointer in basketball.)

The fact that Danks didn't give up any hits in the first six innings he pitched is irrelevant.

Again, strongly disagree. The perfect game put tremendeous pressure on Beckett to execute his pitches flawlessly and allowed each individual Sox hitter an opportunity to work him over without having to feel like it's a "must hit" situation - and thus try to do too much, expand strike zone, etc.... To his credit, Josh Beckett pitched like an All-Star himself and simply refused to give in, but many lesser pitchers would have buckled and probably given up a few more runs under the circumstances.

Buehlrle pitching against the same team gave up no runs through seven and Danks gave up two runs through sevneth

First of all, Buerhle gave up a run. He didn't pitch a shut-out, either.

But since you started down this road.... Each individual game is being played under unique conditions... whether or not we perceive and/or understand them. Danks did not face the same line-up Buerhle did - badly slumping Ortiz was missing, Drew wasn't leading off, Youk in the 3-hole, Ellsbury. The home plate umpire was also different, the strike-zone potentially more or less favorable to a given pitcher's specific repertoire. The wind pattern; air temperature, humidity; presence of shadows or even certain distracting details in the background - none were identical for Buerhle & Danks, either. Cooper's instruction; even which reliever was backing the starter in the pen subtely influencing strategy, etc. Which bat Youklis picked off the rack that ended up shattering for a bloop hit that set the comeback in motion that's otherwise a line-out to Griffey.... To you it all may seem trivial, but when you talk about the difference between 1 and 2 runs given up in a game notorious for its element of chance as baseball, the outcome may be affected by the slightest of slight of factors.

Look, noone's trying to take away Buerhle's excellent performance on Friday, but Danks's outing on Monday was very impressive as well. I am sorry you don't appreciate it for what it was - although something tells me that if I were to tell you before the game that Danks would go 7+ innings, giving up just a single and a double, striking out 9 battersd, you would have gladly taken it. :rolleyes:


If you can't win, good stats are irrelevant


So by your own logic, Mark Buerhle has been a very mediocre pitcher since mid-2006.

ms620
08-12-2008, 06:54 AM
The bullpen didn't lose the game tonight. Danks lost the game. He pitched a great game, but tonight's game demonstrates why Danks isn't an ace pitcher, at least an ace at the level that Beckett is.

If Danks gets out of the seventh with no runs scoring, Jenks sould have been in the game in the ninth.

I don't think Danks was a tough luck pitcher at all tonight. He had a good shot at getting through his seven innings without allowing any runs. He failed.

I don't think I'll ever get excited for Danks having a no-hitter going. You can't pitch a no-hitter if you can't pitch nine innings.

I hope I am wrong, because there is nothing I can do about White Sox personel, but it is beginning to look like critics of the Griffey trade were right. Fortunately the Sox didn't give up much for him. Right now, he doesn't look like he should be starting in the outfield. I don't see him replacing Thome on a regular basis at DH.

I agree TDog. Danks is a young pitcher, and should learn to get deeper in games. However, at this point, he cannot.

In regards to the daily debate about Griffey, and what Kenny did at the deadline. Obviously he knew that he needed pitching. However, the prices were too high. Colorado wanted Poreda for Fuentes. Can you imagine if Kenny made that trade? People here would go nuts, especially if Fuentes was just pretty good, and not lights out. Billy Beane wanted too much for Duscherer, as that is the only explanation why he is still on the A's. Huston Street had been a disaster. There were not many options out there, and Kenny did not want to trade Poreda, who has the most upside of the pitchers in the minor league system.

Now on to Griffey. Konerko had been struggling. Griffey was acquired as insurance in the event that Konerko never started hitting. Playing him in CF allows Ozzie to take PK (or swisher) out of the lineup. In addition, he provided insurance in the event of injuries to Dye and Thome. Obviously Griffey is below average in CF right now. And he is not swinging the bat well. However, he still has some power, and if he can (not saying he will) get hot, it would be huge for the lineup. Was it the ideal move for this team? No. But acquiring Griffey and not acquiring pitching are completely independent, and should be discussed independently. Massett and Richar were not going to get the Sox pitching. Therefore, I do not understand why people make comments such as "we needed pitching, but KW traded for Griffey instead". It just not does make sense.

palehozenychicty
08-12-2008, 08:51 AM
All in all, a split here is not a bad thing. Beckett was on it, and Danks wasn't quite good enough. I do think that Ozzie needs to ease up on Thornton, as the guy has been run ragged the last two games.

alohafri
08-12-2008, 08:54 AM
All in all, a split here is not a bad thing. Beckett was on it, and Danks wasn't quite good enough. I do think that Ozzie needs to ease up on Thornton, as the guy has been run ragged the last two games.

Against the Red Sox, after they kicked our asses last season, I'll take a split. However, I think a sweep against Kansas City is needed.

With Cybil Vazquez pitching tonight, Thornton better be ready for some action tonight.

TomBradley72
08-12-2008, 08:59 AM
I can't believe these negative posts about Danks. He's 23 y.o. for Gods sake...and he's developing...most of his peers are still learning at AA/AAA. He let up one big hit...and since he was facing the other team's ace...it cost him. On the other hand...battling through and completing the 7th inning against the Red Sox was a developmental step for him. You could see AJ "willing him" to get through the 7th. Since Jose went down, Javy is not the stud we hoped he'd be, and our bullpen is in shreds, it's critical that to try to get Danks to go deeper in games...and he'll need to be able to do that for the balance of the season.

I'll be ready to be blasted....but I sure would like to see BA get a few starts in CF. Obviously Griffey is a complete liability out there, I'd go back to what gave us a spark in June and Swisher getting his ABs at 1B or when resting Dye/Quentin, if you normalize for ABs (everyone getting 384 ABs like Swisher), here's the comparison:


Swisher- .234 BA/.354 OBP/16 HR/54 RBI
Konerko- .220 BA/.322 OBP/13 HR/46 RBI
Anderson- .238 BA/.268 OBP/19 HR/51 RBI
Improving our outfield defense (and infield when Swisher is at 1B) takes pressure off the pitching staff (fewer pitches, no "extra outs", starters go an extra inning or two, etc.). Obviously our OBP suffers a bit, but I'll trade that for the upgrade on defense and the impact it has on the pitching. One extra inning by a starter with our bullpen is a BIG deal. A 7 inning start means we go to Dotel/Jenks a 6 inning start means going to Ramirez/Russell, etc.

palehozenychicty
08-12-2008, 09:02 AM
Against the Red Sox, after they kicked our asses last season, I'll take a split. However, I think a sweep against Kansas City is needed.

With Cybil Vazquez pitching tonight, Thornton better be ready for some action tonight.

The Vaz has been a fizz.

kraut83
08-12-2008, 09:09 AM
If you can't win, good stats are irrelevant. Danks had his chance to win tonight, or at least leave the game with the lead. He didn't do it. That's what is so frustrating about Danks.

I agree that Danks is far from an "ace" (how many true aces are there in baseball?), but if you only give up 2 runs through 7 innings of work that's a quality outing that keeps your team in a position to win.

delben91
08-12-2008, 09:34 AM
The bullpen didn't lose the game tonight. Danks lost the game. He pitched a great game, but tonight's game demonstrates why Danks isn't an ace pitcher, at least an ace at the level that Beckett is.

If Danks gets out of the seventh with no runs scoring, Jenks sould have been in the game in the ninth.

I don't think Danks was a tough luck pitcher at all tonight. He had a good shot at getting through his seven innings without allowing any runs. He failed.

I don't think I'll ever get excited for Danks having a no-hitter going. You can't pitch a no-hitter if you can't pitch nine innings.



Danks stanks.

beasly213
08-12-2008, 09:43 AM
Do you guys think Twins fans have the pesimistic view that a lot of Sox fans seem to have?
I mean honestly I can't help but think that the Sox aren't going to pull this division race out and the Twins are going to take it.

Do you think Twins fans are thinking their team is going to blow it?

Anyway, the Sox really need to just keep pace right now and win as many games as they can at home. I won't be happy with nothing short of a sweep over KC. Be in first place or tied for first place on September 1 and I'll be happy with a good ol fasion pennant race!

:bandance:

MsSoxVixen22
08-12-2008, 10:43 AM
Danks pitched well enough to deserve the win, but he unraveled once he blew his no hitter. Ozzie should've taken him out but with our bullpen the way it is, it wouldn't have made much difference. We can't win games scoring 1 run and leaving men on base multiple times. We need to get better at moving guys along and getting them in. We can't survive on the long ball forever. Part of how we won the WS in '05 besides our lights out pitching, was our ability to manufacture runs and move guys along. Griffey really needs to step it up...

oeo
08-12-2008, 11:03 AM
Danks pitched well enough to deserve the win, but he unraveled once he blew his no hitter. Ozzie should've taken him out but with our bullpen the way it is, it wouldn't have made much difference.

He was getting up there in pitches. It didn't have to do with the no-no, the man was getting tired. He made one mistake.

And you're right, with the bullpen the way it is, Danks was the best choice to finish the inning.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 11:07 AM
I can't help but think TDog would have gladly replaced Danks in the rotation with Livan Hernandez. After all, Livan has double digit wins this year.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 11:18 AM
Run support is irrelevant....
If you can't win, good stats are irrelevant.

I was soooooo waiting for this post - I couldn't remember who brought up this horrible argument the first time around.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 11:19 AM
Therefore, I do not understand why people make comments such as "we needed pitching, but KW traded for Griffey instead". It just not does make sense.

Because they don't know what they're talking about, and in some dream world of theirs Masset and Richar snags you a starter or a closer.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 11:20 AM
I can't help but think TDog would have gladly replaced Danks in the rotation with Livan Hernandez. After all, Livan has double digit wins this year.

Thank you! I was too lazy to go look for an example.

TDog, I beg you to please respond to this.

jabrch
08-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I agree that Danks is far from an "ace" (how many true aces are there in baseball?), but if you only give up 2 runs through 7 innings of work that's a quality outing that keeps your team in a position to win.


2 runs, 7 innings, vs one of the best hitting teams in baseball.... I'll take it.

It's Dankerific
08-12-2008, 11:24 AM
2 runs, 7 innings, vs one of the best hitting teams in baseball.... I'll take it.

Most people would. Just another game the Sox offense ****ed over for Danks. On a better offensive team he'd have 12-15 wins by now.

Martinigirl
08-12-2008, 11:34 AM
So after I read all the comments that the Red Sox fans weren't that bad this year, I get stuck across the aisle from a total *******. He started off by screaming at the top of his lungs, for an obnoxious amount of time, when he thought their left fielder caught a ball. Turns out he trapped it and Swish was on first. The man was too busy screaming to notice was was actually happening, until I politely said, "Look at the field, Swish is on first". Every fly ball was a homerun, etc, etc, etc. It was stupidity like this the entire game.

The outcome of the game was bad enough, but having to deal with this moron made it so much worse. This is why I knew I shouldn't go to this series, yet somehow I ended up there anyway.

But the other highlight, beyond Danks and Quetin's D, was seeing bald Gavin Floyd. That was priceless.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-12-2008, 11:41 AM
Danks gave up 2 hits and 2 runs in 7 innings. And people aren't satisfied? People don't think he's one of the best young starters in the league? Are you kidding?

If the Sox had scored 8 runs last night, everyone would be doing cartwheels and extolling Dank's praises. Instead, he allows two runs and he's a bum? And people think he should have been yanked after giving up a broken-bat single? And he should not be allowed to finish an inning and get a chance to win the game because .. ?

What I see is a guy who is developing into one of the better lefties in the league and who will be the ace of the staff one day, maybe as early as next year. He's been the most consistent pitcher on the Sox staff all year.

I'd like four more like him right now.

oeo
08-12-2008, 11:43 AM
Danks gave up 2 hits and 2 runs in 7 innings. And people aren't satisfied? People don't think he's one of the best young starters in the league? Are you kidding?

If the Sox had scored 8 runs last night, everyone would be doing cartwheels and extolling Dank's praises. Instead, he allows two runs and he's a bum? And people think he should have been yanked after giving up a broken-bat single? And he should not be allowed to finish an inning and get a chance to win the game because .. ?

What I see is a guy who is developing into one of the better lefties in the league and who will be the ace of the staff one day, maybe as early as next year. He's been the most consistent pitcher on the Sox staff all year.

I'd like four more like him right now.

But, but, he's just so frustrating. How dare he give up a hit!

kittle42
08-12-2008, 11:44 AM
Danks gave up 2 hits and 2 runs in 7 innings. And people aren't satisfied? People don't think he's one of the best young starters in the league? Are you kidding?

If the Sox had scored 8 runs last night, everyone would be doing cartwheels and extolling Dank's praises. Instead, he allows two runs and he's a bum? And people think he should have been yanked after giving up a broken-bat single? And he should not be allowed to finish an inning and get a chance to win the game because .. ?

What I see is a guy who is developing into one of the better lefties in the league and who will be the ace of the staff one day, maybe as early as next year. He's been the most consistent pitcher on the Sox staff all year.

I'd like four more like him right now.

He doesn't know how to win. Runs scored in his support are meaningless. If the Sox got shut out, a good pitcher would have known that he had to get the other team to have negative runs.

TDog
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
I can't help but think TDog would have gladly replaced Danks in the rotation with Livan Hernandez. After all, Livan has double digit wins this year.

You're missing my point. Livan Hernandez won on opening day because he held the Angels to two runs on opening day and didn't give up the lead. In three of his next four wins, he gave up a total of two runs while pitching at least seven innings in each. He pitched some very good games, but the Twins cut him because hitters had figured him out and hit him hard. His win-loss record indicates he has had an up and down season. His career records indicate he has had an up-and-down career. I wasn't arguing that Hernandez was a better pitcher than Danks. Hernandez had the advantage of pitching in the Metrodome, where visiting teams have trouble with the lighting, especially when they first come into town, but he also held the White Sox to one run in a complete-game win in Chicago. Still, no one believed Hernandez was going to have a great season when he was undefeated with a 2.57 ERA because he has a track record of inconsistency.

The original point I was arguing was that Monday night's game showed Danks is the best of the White Sox starters. It did not. Mark Buehrle's start, juxtaposed with Danks' start showed that Buehrle is the best pitcher on the White Sox staff. Buehrle is an experienced pitcher who can go deep into ballgames. Danks has shown at this stage of his career, he cannot effectively do so.

Danks this season has an ERA of nearly 9 when he goes beyond the sixth inning. He has pitched 9.1 innings and given up nine runs. He has worked seven innings in the seventh this year, allowing seven runs. He has worked 2.1 innings in the eighth, giving up two runs. He has left a seven runners on base in coming out of the games in the seventh and eighth, and the bullpen has allowed only one of those runners to score, and that was after he left an inning without retiring a batter, so if it weren't for the great work from the Sox bullpen, his post-sixth-inning run totals could be almost double.

Danks is a different pitcher after the sixth, regardless of his pitch count, regardless of how many hits he has given up through six. I don't know if it's a mental thing. Art Kusnyer said Jim Parque was a different pitcher after the fifth because he believed his job was to pitch the first five innings. I don't know if it is a mental thing with Danks, or if he loses his stuff.

What I do know is that before John Danks can be called the best starter on the White Sox staff, he is going to have to pitch effectively deeper into ballgames. Before he is a big winner, he will need to pitch effectively deeper into games. Maybe before the end of this season he will do so. People were rooting for him to get a no-hitter going into the seventh last night. I was rooting for him to hold the lead, which I didn't believe he would do.

Monday night's game didn't show that Danks was the best starter on the White Sox or the best starter in game. Josh Beckett outpitched him Monday night. Buehrle outpitched him Friday night.

roylestillman
08-12-2008, 02:18 PM
Danks gave up 2 hits and 2 runs in 7 innings. And people aren't satisfied? People don't think he's one of the best young starters in the league? Are you kidding?

If the Sox had scored 8 runs last night, everyone would be doing cartwheels and extolling Dank's praises. Instead, he allows two runs and he's a bum? And people think he should have been yanked after giving up a broken-bat single? And he should not be allowed to finish an inning and get a chance to win the game because .. ?

What I see is a guy who is developing into one of the better lefties in the league and who will be the ace of the staff one day, maybe as early as next year. He's been the most consistent pitcher on the Sox staff all year.

I'd like four more like him right now.

Absolutely right. How can anybody say that was a poor performance by Danks last night. He was dealing from he first inning - he only threw one ball the whole inning and went on to strike out 8. I fear that endless griping that went on about Ozzie pulling him early during that first Cubs/Sox game propbably made him gun shy about pulling him when he knows he's done. Danks is the real thing.

kittle42
08-12-2008, 02:18 PM
The original point I was arguing was that Monday night's game showed Danks is the best of the White Sox starters. It did not. Mark Buehrle's start, juxtaposed with Danks' start showed that Buehrle is the best pitcher on the White Sox staff. Buehrle is an experienced pitcher who can go deep into ballgames. Danks has shown at this stage of his career, he cannot effectively do so.

Danks this season has an ERA of nearly 9 when he goes beyond the sixth inning. He has pitched 9.1 innings and given up nine runs. He has worked seven innings in the seventh this year, allowing seven runs. He has worked 2.1 innings in the eighth, giving up two runs. He has left a seven runners on base in coming out of the games in the seventh and eighth, and the bullpen has allowed only one of those runners to score, and that was after he left an inning without retiring a batter, so if it weren't for the great work from the Sox bullpen, his post-sixth-inning run totals could be almost double.

Danks is a different pitcher after the sixth, regardless of his pitch count, regardless of how many hits he has given up through six. I don't know if it's a mental thing. Art Kusnyer said Jim Parque was a different pitcher after the fifth because he believed his job was to pitch the first five innings. I don't know if it is a mental thing with Danks, or if he loses his stuff.

What I do know is that before John Danks can be called the best starter on the White Sox staff, he is going to have to pitch effectively deeper into ballgames. Before he is a big winner, he will need to pitch effectively deeper into games. Maybe before the end of this season he will do so. People were rooting for him to get a no-hitter going into the seventh last night. I was rooting for him to hold the lead, which I didn't believe he would do.

Monday night's game didn't show that Danks was the best starter on the White Sox or the best starter in game. Josh Beckett outpitched him Monday night. Buehrle outpitched him Friday night.

All this, I do agree with you on.

spiffie
08-12-2008, 03:16 PM
You're missing my point. Livan Hernandez won on opening day because he held the Angels to two runs on opening day and didn't give up the lead. In three of his next four wins, he gave up a total of two runs while pitching at least seven innings in each. He pitched some very good games, but the Twins cut him because hitters had figured him out and hit him hard. His win-loss record indicates he has had an up and down season. His career records indicate he has had an up-and-down career. I wasn't arguing that Hernandez was a better pitcher than Danks. Hernandez had the advantage of pitching in the Metrodome, where visiting teams have trouble with the lighting, especially when they first come into town, but he also held the White Sox to one run in a complete-game win in Chicago. Still, no one believed Hernandez was going to have a great season when he was undefeated with a 2.57 ERA because he has a track record of inconsistency.

The original point I was arguing was that Monday night's game showed Danks is the best of the White Sox starters. It did not. Mark Buehrle's start, juxtaposed with Danks' start showed that Buehrle is the best pitcher on the White Sox staff. Buehrle is an experienced pitcher who can go deep into ballgames. Danks has shown at this stage of his career, he cannot effectively do so.

Danks this season has an ERA of nearly 9 when he goes beyond the sixth inning. He has pitched 9.1 innings and given up nine runs. He has worked seven innings in the seventh this year, allowing seven runs. He has worked 2.1 innings in the eighth, giving up two runs. He has left a seven runners on base in coming out of the games in the seventh and eighth, and the bullpen has allowed only one of those runners to score, and that was after he left an inning without retiring a batter, so if it weren't for the great work from the Sox bullpen, his post-sixth-inning run totals could be almost double.

Danks is a different pitcher after the sixth, regardless of his pitch count, regardless of how many hits he has given up through six. I don't know if it's a mental thing. Art Kusnyer said Jim Parque was a different pitcher after the fifth because he believed his job was to pitch the first five innings. I don't know if it is a mental thing with Danks, or if he loses his stuff.

What I do know is that before John Danks can be called the best starter on the White Sox staff, he is going to have to pitch effectively deeper into ballgames. Before he is a big winner, he will need to pitch effectively deeper into games. Maybe before the end of this season he will do so. People were rooting for him to get a no-hitter going into the seventh last night. I was rooting for him to hold the lead, which I didn't believe he would do.

Monday night's game didn't show that Danks was the best starter on the White Sox or the best starter in game. Josh Beckett outpitched him Monday night. Buehrle outpitched him Friday night.
This is a much more reasonably argued post, that I find little to disagree with. The one flaw Danks has right now is that he tends to run up pitch counts and make himself a 6 inning pitcher. In a lot of ways he is kind of our version of Rich Harden in that regard. You know Danks will keep you in a game, but you're likely going to need a couple of innings of work from your pen.

Jerome
08-12-2008, 03:30 PM
I was at this game and it was GREAT! Until the no-no was lost, that is. The parachute guys, Billy Dee Williams, the cast of Jersey Boys singing perhaps the greatest national anthem ever, Danks taking a no-hitter and striking out 9...

And then the bullpen comes in and turns it into a nightmare. I bet Ozzie takes Danks out sooner than he did if he had a full bullpen to work with.

The offense was not inspiring either, but they were facing one of the best. I would hope against a lesser pitcher they could do more with the number of hits they had.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 03:36 PM
I don't know if it is a mental thing with Danks, or if he loses his stuff.

IMO it's a mix of four things, actually, in the order of importance:

1) fatigue resulting in slight loss of armspeed & arm slot
2) 3rd time through the opposing line-up
3) self-conscious "oh here we go again" look probably indicating it's become a bit of a mental thing, lately
4) Ozzie's mismanagement - refusing to understand each pitcher's (current) limitations.



What I do know is that before John Danks can be called the best starter on the White Sox staff, he is going to have to pitch effectively deeper into ballgames.


Not necessarily.

Say the Sox make the playoffs. They likely will open on the road. What would you rather have, knowing that Sox offense probably won't be scoring much: Danks pitching 6 innings giving up run-and-a-half (lol) or Buerhle going 6 2/3 inning and giving up 4 runs?

People were rooting for him to get a no-hitter going into the seventh last night. I was rooting for him to hold the lead

I was rooting for both, silly me.

Buehrle outpitched him Friday night.

You keep saying it and it's simply not true. For one, Mark did not face Danks directly. Precise game conditions/circumstances were not identical, either as mentioned in another post, including the fact that Beckett arguably matches up better with Sox hitters than Lester does, which only made Dank's task more daunting as his margin for error was likely going to be nonexistent going into the game.

And for those who actually watched the game, Mark did not look better pitch quality-wise than Danks, who pitched as close to a mistake-free game as it gets (save for ill-advised nibbling on struggling Lowell, which allowed JD Drew to come to bat w. multiple runners on in the first place.)

I am not going to say that Danks outpitched Buerhgle, either. They both pitched as well as could have reasonably been expected under the circumstances. The rest was (baseball) Luck.


So how about it, TDog: if I had told you before Monday's game that Danks would go 7 innings, giving up just a single, a double and a walk, while striking out 9... Would you have gladly taken it? I know you're honest.


.

TDog
08-12-2008, 05:52 PM
...


So how about it, TDog: if I had told you before Monday's game that Danks would go 7 innings, giving up just a single, a double and a walk, while striking out 9... Would you have gladly taken it? I know you're honest.


I would have expected Danks to have won because I expected the White Sox to score five runs. If you would have told me the White Sox would only score one run and Danks would only pitch seven innings, giving up three total bases on two hits, with a walk and a hit batsmen for four baserunners in that span, I would have expected him to pitch just well enough to lose. That's what I was suggesting would happen in the game thread and that is indeed what happened.

Contrary to your original point, Danks showed last night why he isn't the best starter on the White Sox staff.

I wasn't happy that he was pitching a no-hitter last night. Guillen didn't have the option of taking him out after six.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
The offense was not inspiring either


No they really were not, though obviously a lot of that had to do with Beckett himself.

However, Beckett for most of the game was basically a fastball-only pitcher, and given the Sox reputation as a fastball-hitting team, they should have taken better advantage of it, I thought, especially whenever they put a lead-off man on base.

Once Beckett got the lead, he did start mixing in the curve more, began to use Sox desperation against them by staying away - and we all know Sox hitters aside from Thome, don't like to go oppo that much under Greg Walker.

Speaking of which. Feasting on bad & mediocre pitching, especially at Home, in low-impact regular reason games, while still important, is one thing. Hitting real good pitching in higher-pressure pennant race & postseason games, is a whole nother beast altogether: and it's hard to win World Series without knowing how to do it fairly consistently. Beckett, Matsuzaka, Kazmir, Liriano, Baker, Lackey, Saunders, Santana, Shields, K-Rod, Nathan, Balfour, Mussina, Champberlain, Rivera, etc - it's important to see our offense toughen up, to be more versatile, to string together runs quality AB/innings against our likely postseason opponents, especially on the Road.... even if it comes at the expense of some of those majestic HR down LF line.

Adele_H
08-12-2008, 06:00 PM
I would have expected Danks to have won because I expected the White Sox to score five runs.

So is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?

Me? I would have gladly taken it... knowing that if Beckett stands on his head, there is a chance Sox may lose anyway. Again... that's baseball for you.

TDog
08-12-2008, 08:15 PM
So is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?

Me? I would have gladly taken it... knowing that if Beckett stands on his head, there is a chance Sox may lose anyway. Again... that's baseball for you.

I would take it because it implies shutout. I would have been deceived.