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View Full Version : Ruptured Achilles for Contreras


chisoxfan4life
08-09-2008, 08:10 PM
Per Hawk on WGN. The search for another starter begins..

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:10 PM
We might have seen the last of him tonight. What are we gonna do now?:whiner:

ViPeRx007
08-09-2008, 08:11 PM
Well that sucks.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 08:13 PM
Unreal. :angry:


Poreda? Have to roll the dice with the best arm in the farm IMO, especially whe we are so close to getting to post season.

fquaye149
08-09-2008, 08:15 PM
that might do it for Conteras, period.

That can be a career-ender for a 36 40 45 year old

Carolina Kenny
08-09-2008, 08:16 PM
What are the best options in house?

Poreda
Richards
Tomo Orka
Broadway
Hager

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 08:16 PM
Time to kick all 4 tires on Freddy.

Brian26
08-09-2008, 08:16 PM
We might have seen the last of him tonight. What are we gonna do now?:whiner:

Harrelson just said of Carrasco that we might be looking at the next 5th starter- but of course that opens a gaping hole in the pen now.

southside rocks
08-09-2008, 08:17 PM
Oh no, oh no, oh no. I don't know who I feel worse for: Jose, the team, or the fans.

Can I hope that Hawk is wrong about this? :(:

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:18 PM
What are the best options in house?

Poreda
Richards
Tomo Orka
Broadway
Hager
Wes Whisler is also available. I swear, if we don't bring up him or Poreda, we might be royally screwed on this front.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 08:18 PM
Harrelson just said of Carrasco that we might be looking at the next 5th starter- but of course that opens a gaping hole in the pen now.


Carrasco has been the lone bright spot in the pen this second half, I would not touch him.

psyclonis
08-09-2008, 08:20 PM
I bet KW just called Garcia's agent :makefaces:

jabrch
08-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Washburn?

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 08:25 PM
Washburn?


It's going to be a huge price to pay. Perhaps they will ask for Poreda which at that point why not just bring him up.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:26 PM
So...why hasn't anyone suggested Egbert yet? Poreda is not coming up. No chance.

fquaye149
08-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Harrelson just said of Carrasco that we might be looking at the next 5th starter- but of course that opens a gaping hole in the pen now.

He's pitching his guts out right now, but I'd rather take a stab at one of our legit starters....

Then again :shrug:. They're probably all gonna have the same level of success at this point.

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:28 PM
So...why hasn't anyone suggested Egbert yet? Poreda is not coming up. No chance.
He's 3-10 with an ERA of 4.89. If there's no chance of Poreda coming up, then there's no chance in Hell of seeing Egbert up here soon.

twentywontowin
08-09-2008, 08:29 PM
Get Garcia on the phone and roll the dice.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:30 PM
He's 3-10 with an ERA of 4.89. If there's no chance of Poreda coming up, then there's no chance in Hell of seeing Egbert up here soon.
False. 3:1 K/BB ratio with a good ground ball percentage makes him more likely than any of the other alternatives.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:31 PM
Get Garcia on the phone and roll the dice.
I don't even think he can throw off a mound yet.

Rockin Robin
08-09-2008, 08:34 PM
Q: What time is it?

A: Ray King time, baby.

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:34 PM
False. 3:1 K/BB ratio with a good ground ball percentage makes him more likely than any of the other alternatives.
Javy's got roughly the same K/BB ratio. You know the type of pitcher he is.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:35 PM
Javy's got roughly the same K/BB ratio. You know the type of pitcher he is.
I fail to see your point.

A: "The sky is blue!"
B: "So is denim, and you know how that is!"

twentywontowin
08-09-2008, 08:36 PM
I don't even think he can throw off a mound yet.

He's throwing up to 86mph right now in some workout sessions. I'd say two weeks:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3522551

I say throw $500k at him for the rest of the season.

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:40 PM
I fail to see your point.

A: "The sky is blue!"
B: "So is denim, and you know how that is!"
The bottom line is I don't trust someone with his ERA right now. It's worse than that of anyone in our rotation. If he can prove me wrong, great. However, we're trying to get better with a rotation that night after night has carried the team on its back this season. Sorry, but give me Whisler, Poreda, or even Broadway before Egbert.

UofCSoxFan
08-09-2008, 08:41 PM
The shame is that Jose was throwing pretty well....granted it was only 1 and 2/3 innings but he looked to have more velocity and was actually attacking the zone...I was hopeful we were going to get good Jose back.

His career may be over now.

This leaves us razor thin at the starting rotation now. Any legit starter from waivers will be blocked, especially by a team that needs starting pitching itself and has payroll (see Yankees, New York).

As much as I would hate to do this as it may burn out are starting 5 before the playoffs, but we may not have a choice but to go to a 4 man rotation starting in September (I wouldn't do it now).

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:42 PM
The bottom line is I don't trust someone with his ERA right now. It's worse than that of anyone in our rotation. If he can prove me wrong, great. However, we're trying to get better with a rotation that night after night has carried the team on its back this season. Sorry, but give me Whisler, Poreda, or even Broadway before Egbert.
Whisler has been one of the luckiest pitchers in baseball all year. He's been terrible before his fluky performance this season.

Broadway sucks. That's fairly obvious.

Poreda does not need to be called up yet. He has two good pitches, he's trying to develop a third and calling him up now would not be good for the organization, long-term or short-term.

Daver
08-09-2008, 08:44 PM
The shame is that Jose was throwing pretty well....granted it was only 1 and 2/3 innings but he looked to have more velocity and was actually attacking the zone...I was hopeful we were going to get good Jose back.

His career may be over now.

This leaves us razor thin at the starting rotation now. Any legit starter from waivers will be blocked, especially by a team that needs starting pitching itself and has payroll (see Yankees, New York).

As much as I would hate to do this as it may burn out are starting 5 before the playoffs, but we may not have a choice but to go to a 4 man rotation starting in September (I wouldn't do it now).

You can't do that during the season, if you do you are basically giving up any chance of making the playoffs.

DickAllen72
08-09-2008, 08:47 PM
There goes the Sox' best starter and along with him maybe their playoff hopes.

And screw Hawk for ragging on Jose while he's laying there in pain saying he becomes a spectator on plays to first. Then they finally show the replay which clearly shows Jose sprinting off the mound as soon as the ball was hit. DJ called it on the replay.

Now the Sox need to replace Jose, and not with a number five starter. That job belongs to Javy. Sox need at least a two or a three to replace Jose. I doubt if they can find one, so their post-season goals are definitely in jeopardy.

Brian26
08-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Moot point right now, but you have to wonder how close KW was on Duchsherer before the deadline.

thomas35forever
08-09-2008, 08:49 PM
There goes the Sox' best starter and along with him maybe their playoff hopes.

And screw Hawk for ragging on Jose while he's laying there in pain saying he becomes a spectator on plays to first. Then they finally show the replay which clearly shows Jose sprinting off the mound as soon as the ball was hit. DJ called it on the replay.

Now the Sox need to replace Jose, and not with a number five starter. That job belongs to Javy. Sox need at least a two or a three to replace Jose. I doubt if they can find one, so their post-season goals are definitely in jeopardy.
Best starter?:puking:

There's a kid by the name of Danks that's been effective most of the year.

Martinigirl
08-09-2008, 08:50 PM
DJ C is doing a good job. I wouldn't mind giving him a shot at the 5th starter spot.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 08:51 PM
There goes the Sox' best starter and along with him maybe their playoff hopes.

And screw Hawk for ragging on Jose while he's laying there in pain saying he becomes a spectator on plays to first. Then they finally show the replay which clearly shows Jose sprinting off the mound as soon as the ball was hit. DJ called it on the replay.

Now the Sox need to replace Jose, and not with a number five starter. That job belongs to Javy. Sox need at least a two or a three to replace Jose. I doubt if they can find one, so their post-season goals are definitely in jeopardy.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-good-is-your-4-starter/
After going through that procedure for all thirty MLB teams, we can make some generalizations. To start with, here are the averages for each rotation position:
Lg #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
MLB 3.60 4.14 4.58 5.10 6.24
AL 3.70 4.24 4.58 5.09 6.22
NL 3.51 4.04 4.57 5.11 6.26
What immediately jumps out at me is how high the #4 and #5 ERAs are. If there's one thing most people agree on when they talk about rotation spots, it's that a guy with an ERA over 5.00 ought to be your #5 starter. As it turns out, fewer than half of major league teams could claim an ERA under 5.00 from their #4 spot.

In fact, only three teams in baseball got an ERA under 5.00 from their #5 spot: the Tigers (4.48), the White Sox (4.99), and the Padres (4.91). And if we adjusted for park, the Padres would sneak over 5.00. Only two other teams--the Giants (5.18) and the A's (5.16) are under 5.50 from that position. Given the enormous difference between the best teams and the league averages, it's all the more apparent just how valuable rotation depth can be.

BainesHOF
08-09-2008, 08:52 PM
DJ C is doing a good job. I wouldn't mind giving him a shot at the 5th starter spot.

I agree.

Corlose 15
08-09-2008, 08:52 PM
There goes the Sox' best starter and along with him maybe their playoff hopes.

And screw Hawk for ragging on Jose while he's laying there in pain saying he becomes a spectator on plays to first. Then they finally show the replay which clearly shows Jose sprinting off the mound as soon as the ball was hit. DJ called it on the replay.

Now the Sox need to replace Jose, and not with a number five starter. That job belongs to Javy. Sox need at least a two or a three to replace Jose. I doubt if they can find one, so their post-season goals are definitely in jeopardy.

Their best starter?:?: I think John Danks might have something to say about that. Contreras' ERA is 4.6. Both Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle have all pitched better than him.

DickAllen72
08-09-2008, 08:52 PM
Best starter?

There's a kid by the name of Danks that's been effective most of the year.
I hope he continues to pitch this well after he approaches 200 innings.

Brian26
08-09-2008, 08:54 PM
I hope he continues to pitch this well after he approaches 200 innings.

Danks is going to be fine. They coddled him last year. He's a strong kid who can go 200 IP now.

fquaye149
08-09-2008, 08:55 PM
Best starter?:puking:

There's a kid by the name of Danks that's been effective most of the year.

He has (had?) the best stuff of any pitcher on this team with the possible exception of Vazzy.

That said, he wasn't the best pitcher by any measure.

A. Cavatica
08-09-2008, 08:57 PM
Haeger was underwhelming against Pawtucket today. His control was OK, but he still bled a run or two almost every inning. Nor will it be Whisler, or Broadway, who haven't done anything to earn a callup.

I think we're looking at Clayton Richard while the Sox shop around for a waiver-wire deal. Or maybe Carrasco, with Richard moving to long relief. Either option is better than Tomo Ohka.

oeo
08-09-2008, 09:08 PM
What are the best options in house?

Poreda
Richards
Tomo Orka
Broadway
Hager

DJ Carrasco.

Maybe bring up Poreda and put him in the pen, but isn't he still a one pitch pitcher at this point? That won't bode well up here in a starting role. Depending on how bad his secondary stuff is, maybe not even in a relief role.

Craig Grebeck
08-09-2008, 09:20 PM
It's a third pitch for Poreda, not a second pitch. He's got a plus pitch in a fastball and and above average slider. He just needs to refine his change-up.

October26
08-09-2008, 09:30 PM
I feel so bad for Jose Contreras. I was very upset watching him suffer that injury. Jose was pitching well after coming back off the disabled list today. Then this happens. And we already have Linebrink on the DL. Plus our bullpen is stretched thin. This is a horrible injury at a horrible time. Ugh.

Mr. White Sox
08-09-2008, 09:33 PM
It's a third pitch for Poreda, not a second pitch. He's got a plus pitch in a fastball and and above average slider. He just needs to refine his change-up.

So he's Matt Thornton + Upside right now? That's fine, but we already have two LHPs in the bullpen, so unless you want to send down Logan, Poreda makes one LHP too many (unless you're making him the 5th starter, which is unlikely to say the least). Same goes for Richard.

I think they'll make Carrasco the 5th starter and call up one of Broadway, Egbert, or Haeger for long relief. Not a great choice by any means, but there's not much they can do right now.

turners56
08-09-2008, 09:33 PM
Unreal. :angry:


Poreda? Have to roll the dice with the best arm in the farm IMO, especially whe we are so close to getting to post season.

Poreda's a one pitch pitcher. Don't mess with him at this point. He's got amazing talent. The last thing he needs is to come up to the Majors, get pounded, and lose his confidence.

turners56
08-09-2008, 09:34 PM
I feel so bad for Jose Contreras. I was very upset watching him suffer that injury. Jose was pitching well after coming back off the disabled list today. Then this happens. And we already have Linebrink on the DL. Plus our bullpen is stretched thin. This is a horrible injury at a horrible time. Ugh.

Jose looked great today. He got his velocity back and was throwing strikes...so unfortunate.

Domeshot17
08-09-2008, 09:45 PM
you have to wonder how Jose will handle this mentally. The guy as we know is very emotional, this might break him.

NO TO POREDA, you take a rookie who isn't all that good (I'm sorry but he throws hard, has an average breaking ball and no change up, hes Andy Sisco with more potential right now, and we saw how that worked out). Then you put that rookie in a playoff chase on a 2nd place team (unless the Twins implode tonight or we come back) and it just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

The lack of talent in the minor leagues has really been exposed this year. Wasserman Russell Richard etc. The only viable option unless we are conceding the year is making a trade for a veteran.

102605
08-09-2008, 09:45 PM
Is Jose signed for next season too?

So unfortunate. He has been one of my favorites for the past 3-4 years.

Daver
08-09-2008, 09:47 PM
The only viable option unless we are conceding the year is making a trade for a veteran.

Good luck getting any starting pitcher to clear waivers when the Yankee's are looking for pitching.

102605
08-09-2008, 09:47 PM
Good luck getting any starting pitcher to clear waivers when the Yankee's are looking for pitching.

Our record could be worse then the Yankees record after another week or two.

duke of dorwood
08-09-2008, 09:48 PM
Some of us have questioned his age in the past-this will be hard to come back from-he wont be the same

oeo
08-09-2008, 09:49 PM
It's a third pitch for Poreda, not a second pitch. He's got a plus pitch in a fastball and and above average slider. He just needs to refine his change-up.

Alright, a two pitch starter isn't going to work.

oeo
08-09-2008, 09:52 PM
you have to wonder how Jose will handle this mentally. The guy as we know is very emotional, this might break him.

Well, if the hand slam to the ground said anything, it could be that he might just hang it up. These last two years have been terrible on him...it might be better for him to just move on from the game.

But I doubt it, as he still has a contract.

102605
08-09-2008, 09:52 PM
Is Contreras signed for 2009?

oeo
08-09-2008, 09:53 PM
Is Contreras signed for 2009?

Yep, so pray he retires.

WhiteSox5187
08-09-2008, 09:54 PM
I think you have to cross your fingers and take a chance on Freddy.

Domeshot17
08-09-2008, 09:54 PM
Yep, so pray he retires.

Don't MLB teams have insurance policies against injuries on players?

Noneck
08-09-2008, 09:58 PM
Everyone out there knew starting pitching was not available at the trade deadline and now. That was even more of a reason to deepen the bullpen. Maybe Carrasco could come in and give a couple quality starts but who fills his slot and Linebrinks. I guess if the zipper on the change purse wasn't rusty
Bradford might have helped.

oeo
08-09-2008, 10:03 PM
Don't MLB teams have insurance policies against injuries on players?

Well, I don't think we'd have to play his contract in full, which is what I'm hoping for.

Daver
08-09-2008, 10:07 PM
Don't MLB teams have insurance policies against injuries on players?

Usually not, the insurance companies tripled the price of contract insurance when Alex Rodriguez signed his current contract, and added additional risers based on the number of millions the entire contract was worth.

TDog
08-09-2008, 10:29 PM
Everyone out there knew starting pitching was not available at the trade deadline and now. That was even more of a reason to deepen the bullpen. Maybe Carrasco could come in and give a couple quality starts but who fills his slot and Linebrinks. I guess if the zipper on the change purse wasn't rusty
Bradford might have helped.

Honestly, I don't know if Bradford would be an improvement over Russell or Wassermann. I mean that literally. I knew at the time that the fans demanding the Sox trade for Huston Street were misguided. It looks like he has been shut down, reviewing tapes of more successful days and working in the bullpen to try to get back what he has lost.

The Sox aren't going to find anyone problem-free off the waiver wire. Ideally, they should be able to bring someone up. However, I don't know if they are equipped to do that.

WhiteSox5187
08-09-2008, 10:32 PM
you have to wonder how Jose will handle this mentally. The guy as we know is very emotional, this might break him.

NO TO POREDA, you take a rookie who isn't all that good (I'm sorry but he throws hard, has an average breaking ball and no change up, hes Andy Sisco with more potential right now, and we saw how that worked out). Then you put that rookie in a playoff chase on a 2nd place team (unless the Twins implode tonight or we come back) and it just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

The lack of talent in the minor leagues has really been exposed this year. Wasserman Russell Richard etc. The only viable option unless we are conceding the year is making a trade for a veteran.
Jose's mental state is the least of my concerns right now.

Noneck
08-09-2008, 10:36 PM
Honestly, I don't know if Bradford would be an improvement over Russell or Wassermann. I mean that literally. I knew at the time that the fans demanding the Sox trade for Huston Street were misguided. It looks like he has been shut down, reviewing tapes of more successful days and working in the bullpen to try to get back what he has lost.

The Sox aren't going to find anyone problem-free off the waiver wire. Ideally, they should be able to bring someone up. However, I don't know if they are equipped to do that.
I don't know if Bradford would have been the answer either but it sure would have been worth a shot. He has experience and been through this time of year previously. He should have never have been passed on by the Sox.

white sox bill
08-09-2008, 10:41 PM
Dare I mention the term "Four man rotation?" I remember in the 70's some teams actually had three man rotations. You would think todays athletes are in much better shape and could handle pitching one day earlier. Look how well MB pitched on 3 days rest so he could attend his Grandpa's funeral.

Then I guess I'm just dreamin'!

What was the old saying regarding Johnny Sain? "so and so and Sain and pray for rain"

WhiteSox5187
08-09-2008, 10:43 PM
Dare I mention the term "Four man rotation?" I remember in the 70's some teams actually had three man rotations. You would think todays athletes are in much better shape and could handle pitching one day earlier. Look how well MB pitched on 3 days rest so he could attend his Grandpa's funeral.

Then I guess I'm just dreamin'!

What was the old saying regarding Johnny Sain? "so and so and Sain and pray for rain"
It was Spahn and Sain and pray for rain...a four man rotation...it's just not going to happen.

white sox bill
08-09-2008, 10:47 PM
It was Spahn and Sain and pray for rain...a four man rotation...it's just not going to happen.

You got it--thanks! Oz needs to tell MB,Danks,Gavin and Javy to just suck it up! Your right not gonna happen

PaleHoser
08-09-2008, 11:42 PM
It's a third pitch for Poreda, not a second pitch. He's got a plus pitch in a fastball and and above average slider.

Sounds like Steve Carlton. He did OK for a two-pitch pitcher.

russ99
08-09-2008, 11:59 PM
Too bad for Jose. I really feel for the guy. Hopefully he'll stick around the clubhouse after his surgery and continue the exceptional work he's done acclimating Alexei to the big leagues.

Also, tons of players have been moved through waivers already. Most teams do move through waivers a large part of their rosters. Once they clear, they're fair game for a deal and Kenny doesn't have to call the RedSox, Yankees, Rays, Twins and Angels and ask permission.

Since Broadway's had a rough year, I don't expect him to be the answer, but he'll likely get a start or two, and who knows. Maybe AAA is beyond him... Egbert and Poreda won't be up this year - the Sox don't like to rush pitchers and rightfully so.

Kenny will most certainly be making a deal. I wouldn't expect a star, but more like a decent #4 or #5 who can go 6 innings.

Garcia's done, and isn't an option.

oeo
08-10-2008, 12:02 AM
Too bad for Jose. I really feel for the guy. Hopefully he'll stick around the clubhouse after his surgery and continue the exceptional work he's done acclimating Alexei to the big leagues.

Without Jose here, we may have not even signed Alexei. Alexei's opportunity to play with Contreras was probably the biggest reason he signed here.

I feel for Jose, too. I really thought he was going to be big for us in the second half, then this happens. You could just see the frustration. :whiner:

Hitmen77
08-10-2008, 12:03 AM
Is Contreras signed for 2009?

The Sox owe him $10 million for 2009.

At least he only has 1 year left on his contract after this season.

LoveYourSuit
08-10-2008, 12:05 AM
The Sox owe him $10 million for 2009.

At least he only has 1 year left on his contract after this season.


Pile that with Konerko's money left on his deal, yikes for bad money invested on this team for the near future.

102605
08-10-2008, 12:05 AM
The Sox owe him $10 million for 2009.

At least he only has 1 year left on his contract after this season.

That is rough. If he doesn't pitch he is eating up a significant portion of what the White Sox have to spend.

GoSox2K3
08-10-2008, 12:18 AM
Trading Jon Garland is looking real good for us right now.

Yes, we'd be without OC, but our chances are better with Ramirez at SS and trying to find someone to fill the 2B hole (Getz?) than having no one to fill the 5th starter hole.

LoveYourSuit
08-10-2008, 12:22 AM
Trading Jon Garland is looking real good for us right now.

Yes, we'd be without OC, but our chances are better with Ramirez at SS and trying to find someone to fill the 2B hole (Getz?) than having no one to fill the 5th starter hole.


You can have Garland's 4.30 ERA and 1:1 K/BB ratio.

Daver
08-10-2008, 12:24 AM
You can have Garland's 4.30 ERA and 1:1 K/BB ratio.

That may beat the hell outta what we are going to get out of the fifth starters spot.

LoveYourSuit
08-10-2008, 12:30 AM
That may beat the hell outta what we are going to get out of the fifth starters spot.


If we don't make the Garland deal, one of either Floyd or Danks would not have gotten the shot at the rotation this year. Now if in the Spring you would have told me Contreras was going to rip his foot apart in August, then I would have said keep Garland.


The Garland move had to be made if we ever wanted to develop any of your young starters. Therefore the Garland move was a huge success, regardless of how good or bad we think OC has played. It is unforutnate that the Contreras situation has become what it is, it's a freak situation no one could have predicted.

GoSox2K3
08-10-2008, 12:38 AM
If we don't make the Garland deal, one of either Floyd or Danks would not have gotten the shot at the rotation this year. Now if in the Spring you would have told me Contreras was going to rip his foot apart in August, then I would have said keep Garland.


The Garland move had to be made if we ever wanted to develop any of your young starters. Therefore the Garland move was a huge success, regardless of how good or bad we think OC has played. It is unforutnate that the Contreras situation has become what it is, it's a freak situation no one could have predicted.

I would hardly call losing Contreras to a serious injury as a freak situation that no one could have predicted. Maybe we couldn't have predicted it would be his achilles tendon, but I think the Sox should have realized it was a definite risk that Jose would break down in some manner at some point.

Daver
08-10-2008, 12:44 AM
If we don't make the Garland deal, one of either Floyd or Danks would not have gotten the shot at the rotation this year. Now if in the Spring you would have told me Contreras was going to rip his foot apart in August, then I would have said keep Garland.


The Garland move had to be made if we ever wanted to develop any of your young starters. Therefore the Garland move was a huge success, regardless of how good or bad we think OC has played. It is unforutnate that the Contreras situation has become what it is, it's a freak situation no one could have predicted.

The most valuable thing in MLB is starting pitching, if you have it, you hoard it, you don't trade it for a SS with 1 year left on his deal and a history of not being able to stay on a team. Kenny dropped the ball on insuring against an injury to the starting rotation, Haeger would be an interesting addition, but no one on the current roster can catch him.

cards press box
08-10-2008, 12:45 AM
Time to kick all 4 tires on Freddy.

Yes -- if he's healthy, it's certainly worth a shot. And, who knows, if he gets hot for two months, he can be a force in the playoffs, especially on the road.

Washburn?

No -- too many flyballs.

Thome25
08-10-2008, 12:48 AM
The most valuable thing in MLB is starting pitching, if you have it, you hoard it, you don't trade it for a SS with 1 year left on his deal and a history of not being able to stay on a team. Kenny dropped the ball on insuring against an injury to the starting rotation, Haeger would be an interesting addition, but no one on the current roster can catch him.

I completely agree with this post. I'll add to it though......KW should've given the younger pitcher (Garland) a longer extension and he should've let the older pitcher (Contreras) walk.

Extending an older pitcher like Contreras instead of giving Garland more years (and subsequently trading him.) is going to go down as one of KW's rare bad moves.

anewman35
08-10-2008, 01:08 AM
I completely agree with this post. I'll add to it though......KW should've given the younger pitcher (Garland) a longer extension and he should've let the older pitcher (Contreras) walk.

Extending an older pitcher like Contreras instead of giving Garland more years (and subsequently trading him.) is going to go down as one of KW's rare bad moves.

Isn't there always the chance that Garland didn't want to sign a longer extension? KW can't always do whatever he wants, the player has to agree to it also.

oeo
08-10-2008, 01:12 AM
The most valuable thing in MLB is starting pitching, if you have it, you hoard it, you don't trade it for a SS with 1 year left on his deal and a history of not being able to stay on a team. Kenny dropped the ball on insuring against an injury to the starting rotation, Haeger would be an interesting addition, but no one on the current roster can catch him.

Kenny felt like Floyd could take over in the rotation, and he was right. Yeah, Garland would be nice to have right now, but I don't remember many people missing him when the rotation was healthy.

C'mon Daver, you know that somebody had to go. Who was he going to deal? Contreras still had zero trade value. Floyd was a possibility, but how could you second guess the move to keep him?

oeo
08-10-2008, 01:16 AM
I completely agree with this post. I'll add to it though......KW should've given the younger pitcher (Garland) a longer extension and he should've let the older pitcher (Contreras) walk.

Extending an older pitcher like Contreras instead of giving Garland more years (and subsequently trading him.) is going to go down as one of KW's rare bad moves.

This is hindsight at it's best. Contreras was re-signed two and a half years ago when he was the best pitcher in baseball. No one was bitching, there was a lot of celebrating. Garland at his best is nowhere near Contreras at his best, and we saw both of these happening at the time Contreras was re-signed.

Rdy2PlayBall
08-10-2008, 01:20 AM
I don't know why some of you are acting like Contreras sucks. This guy was one of the pitchers we could post up an automatic win because he was doing so good with one of the lowest ERAs on the Sox... and then he got injured and didn't tell Ozzie, so he didn't do good while he was injured. He was probably going to come back and be just as good as he was during that part of the season. This is really bad since our bullpen isn't doing so good and our new guys changing roles might not be able to keep up in the game that long. :whiner:

Daver
08-10-2008, 01:22 AM
Kenny felt like Floyd could take over in the rotation, and he was right. Yeah, Garland would be nice to have right now, but I don't remember many people missing him when the rotation was healthy.

C'mon Daver, you know that somebody had to go. Who was he going to deal? Contreras still had zero trade value. Floyd was a possibility, but how could you second guess the move to keep him?

Hindsight is 20/20 but if Floyd was pitching for Charlotte right now the Sox would not be in a desperate search for someone to fill out the rotation, and Cabrera has not shown me that he was worth a starting pitcher.

Kenny dropped the ball in my opinion, he made a deal that did not need to be made to gain no improvement.

Tragg
08-10-2008, 01:22 AM
Kenny felt like Floyd could take over in the rotation, and he was right. Yeah, Garland would be nice to have right now, but I don't remember many people missing him when the rotation was healthy.

C'mon Daver, you know that somebody had to go. Who was he going to deal? Contreras still had zero trade value. Floyd was a possibility, but how could you second guess the move to keep him?
Depth. Sox had zero depth after the trade. That was the problem. And that was no depth IF Floyd worked out.

The combination of trades (Garland and the Swisher trade) used up every ounce of depth except for perhaps Broadway. It was an obvious risk...and we almost made it.
Trading Garland the year before going free agent wasn't a bad idea at all - we traded him for a position of non-need. Should have recouped some young players -we had no gaping holes on the ml roster except for a leadoff hitter (a hole still unfilled).
Unless we screw it up by not-offering him arb, we'll get 2 nice draft choices...better than nothing.

Corlose 15
08-10-2008, 01:27 AM
Hindsight is 20/20 but if Floyd was pitching for Charlotte right now the Sox would not be in a desperate search for someone to fill out the rotation, and Cabrera has not shown me that he was worth a starting pitcher.

Kenny dropped the ball in my opinion, he made a deal that did not need to be made to gain no improvement.

Wasn't Floyd out of options? No way he would have cleared waivers.

sullythered
08-10-2008, 01:55 AM
Hindsight is 20/20 but if Floyd was pitching for Charlotte right now the Sox would not be in a desperate search for someone to fill out the rotation, and Cabrera has not shown me that he was worth a starting pitcher.

Kenny dropped the ball in my opinion, he made a deal that did not need to be made to gain no improvement.
Gavin Floyd could not pitch for Charlotte this year. No more options. It would have been him or Garland in the rotation, simple as that. I'm not saying the trade was the right move, because maybe we could have put Gavin in the pen. But then again, who knows if he would have made the same strides he has this year in that situation.

I don't know if the trade was a good move or not, but Gavin has been a better starter this year than Jon has, so if it's one for the other, I'll take Floyd.

sullythered
08-10-2008, 03:05 AM
There goes the Sox' best starter
In what alternate dimension is Jose Contreras the Sox best starter? Until the injury, he was battling Javy for the worst starter.

Adele_H
08-10-2008, 03:21 AM
Few thingses real quick:


1. What a ****ing shame, first Bernie Mac now this. Contreras had his good stuff and, more importantly, his good command. That led me to believe his arm/body felt good. However, it makes one wonder how long Jose was gonna last: he got tore up the first time he had to routinely cover the bag, for crying outloud. We all knew before this season even began Contreras (along with Thome, Crede) was a high injury risk. If it wasn't this, I believe it was gonna be a severe hamstring or groin pull or more back spasms at some point. Old age is a bitch and injuries are part of the game.

2. I don't get all the bleating about starting Vazquez in the playoffs. Contreras of 2008 was NOT a sure thing, either at this stage of his career. This isn't 3 years ago. Javier Vazquez is being paid what 12-13 Million a year; Sox gave up a blue-chip prospect for him on top of that. You know what that means? That means Kenny Williams and Co. truly believed him to be capable of winning big games in the pennant race and postseason; they made the big gamble and if their professional judgement turns out to be wrong, then the Sox deserve to lose. Same thing applies to giving Mark Buerhle ace money and not getting ace performance back [should he, too, fail down the stretch]... It's called consequences.

3. How did the Twins survive the loss of their 3 best pitchers (Santana, Liriano and Garza?) By plugging in Baker, Slowey, Blackburn and Perkins. If Sox scouting & development is so weak that they can't get one stinkin' minor leaguer to come up and put up a mid-4.00 ERA for a few weeks while the league tries to adjust to them, then they deserve to lose. Again, it's those pesky consequences.

4. I don't blame Sox for sticking with Boone Logan extra long. A cheap lefty with a mid-90s fastball and, when he was able to keep a consistent arm slot in the first half, a dominant breaking ball against LH... the street is not exactly littered with those guys. But he's done this season from the mental standpoint, it was clear a few weeks ago, so getting Horatio Ramirez or even Scott Eyre was a must. Kudos to Kenny for finally understanding that.

5. Freddy Garcia. If he's still throwing mid-80s with a flat breaking ball, then he won't be of much help. But if he's able to get up to 90 mph with a biting breaking ball, that changes things obviously. Again, it's up to the KW and his scouts to make final determination.

6. Sox let a very winnable game slip away, Matsuzaka tried his best to give it away but our hitters just wouldn't have it. And while Boston line-up does not look that scary on the Road - Manny's gone, Ortiz is a mere mortal now; Varitek looks "smaller if you get my drift; Drew and Lowell are slumping - but they are still very well coached and experienced, still have that Champion's killer instinct so when you fail to put them away, they pull the 6th inning out of their behind.

7. Carasco came out of nowhere and helped hold fort until Linebrink is back. Don't try to make him into something he is not, however. Dangerous territory that further compromises both the starting rotation and the already struggling bullpen.

8. NO FOUR-MAN ROTATION.

9. While Greg Walker and Ozzie got deservedly slammed repeatedly in the last few weeks, Don "Magic Fixer" Cooper has eluded criticism even though most of his staff have been failing mentally and mechanically for some time now. Can't get a good breaking ball over consistently in big situations - including Dotel's spinner to Pedroia on Friday. Coop better get a handle on the situation quick.

peeonwrigley
08-10-2008, 04:57 AM
There was no doubt to me the way he went down that he was done. A ****ing shame, but it is what it is. Looked like nothing on the replay, too. Just goes to show how delicate a multimillion dollar contract can be.

We're up **** creek. I'm with Daver that the Garland deal was garbage, even if he could not be re-signed.

But this is the here and now. Time for someone within the organization to step up and make it happen.

Chrisaway
08-10-2008, 06:02 AM
Here's to a full and speedy recovery for Jose (though unlikely). He pitched his ass off for us since we acquired him and without him we probably wouldn't have seen a title in '05. It's sad to see someone's career go down like that.

LITTLE NELL
08-10-2008, 08:09 AM
I really felt bad for Jose last night, I know the pain he was going through as I tore up an ACL 31 years ago. I felt like I was shot in the knee. Rupturing the achilles and tearing up the ACL are at the top of the list of pain.
Its time for the 4 remaining starters to really step up, they have shown that they can be as good as anyone. Javy could be the key. This is crunch time, lets see what these guys are made of,
As for the 5th starter, based on what I saw last night you got to give Carrasco a shot. He was really impressive.

greenpeach
08-10-2008, 08:46 AM
Pile that with Konerko's money left on his deal, yikes for bad money invested on this team for the near future.

Hey, that's the price you pay when your farm system isn't producing a lot of talent...which it hasn't for a while. KW has been doing a great job of keeping us competitive with trades & free agent pick-ups but a lack of a fertile system has forced him to sign some aging veterans to some big contracts because of a lack of infusion of new blood down on the farm.

One would never confuse our system with that of the Atlanta Braves or the Florida Marlins.

ms620
08-10-2008, 09:16 AM
Honestly, I don't know if Bradford would be an improvement over Russell or Wassermann. I mean that literally

Are you serious that Bradford might not be an improvement? I mean Russell looked OK last night, but Wasserman is a disaster. Bradford has made over 500 appearances in his career, has a ERA 3.3 (I know ERA is overrated for relief pitchers), has a career WHIP of 1.27, and a career BAA of .267. Wasserman pitched well last year when it didnt matter, and has shown over and over again that when it does matter, he is a disaster.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Contreras question:
What if Contreras cannot pitch next year due to injury? What is normal practice for teams? Would insurance money pay for the salary they owe Contreras, or would the team be stuck with his $9-million salary?

If he can't pitch and they are stuck paying the salary, that would be a tremendous liability.

Tekijawa
08-10-2008, 11:52 AM
Contreras question:
What if Contreras cannot pitch next year due to injury? What is normal practice for teams? Would insurance money pay for the salary they owe Contreras, or would the team be stuck with his $9-million salary?

If he can't pitch and they are stuck paying the salary, that would be a tremendous liability.

Stuck paying it, I don't know how the insurance works but I'm sure they have something like that. See Albert Belle/Baltimore for more reference. I think they just finshed paying of that contract a few years ago.

EndemicSox
08-10-2008, 01:08 PM
I hope the ovation for Jose was better than it looked on television. That is probably a career ender for the old man. Thanks for '05 Jose, get well!

TDog
08-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Are you serious that Bradford might not be an improvement? I mean Russell looked OK last night, but Wasserman is a disaster. Bradford has made over 500 appearances in his career, has a ERA 3.3 (I know ERA is overrated for relief pitchers), has a career WHIP of 1.27, and a career BAA of .267. Wasserman pitched well last year when it didnt matter, and has shown over and over again that when it does matter, he is a disaster.

Yes, I am serious. You don't know from a player's stats how he will perform if he comes over to your team. Two days before the trade deadline in 2001, the Sox picked up Alan Embree from the Giants for a minor leaguer. People expected Embree to be effective. People were wrong. Two days after the trade deadline he gave up two runs in two-thirds of an inning in a close game against the Twins. He pitched like his career was over. It wasn't. Embree is still pitching for the A's, where he was their closer at times last season.

As I posted, I don't know how effective Bradford would be for the Sox. The Sox do employ professional scouts who would have a better idea than I how a pitcher from another team might work out for the Sox. And, of course, it isn't simply a matter of claiming every marginal pitcher on waivers, unless the waivers are irrevocable (as dead-last 1970 White Sox inexplicably did with Steve Hamilton).

ms620
08-10-2008, 01:49 PM
Yes, I am serious. You don't know from a player's stats how he will perform if he comes over to your team. Two days before the trade deadline in 2001, the Sox picked up Alan Embree from the Giants for a minor leaguer. People expected Embree to be effective. People were wrong. Two days after the trade deadline he gave up two runs in two-thirds of an inning in a close game against the Twins. He pitched like his career was over. It wasn't. Embree is still pitching for the A's, where he was their closer at times last season.

As I posted, I don't know how effective Bradford would be for the Sox. The Sox do employ professional scouts who would have a better idea than I how a pitcher from another team might work out for the Sox. And, of course, it isn't simply a matter of claiming every marginal pitcher on waivers, unless the waivers are irrevocable (as dead-last 1970 White Sox inexplicably did with Steve Hamilton).

With all due respect, citing 1 example of a move that did not work out does not support your opinion. Bradford is a pitcher who has shown the ability to pitch in the majors, with moderate success. Wasserman has not proved that yet, and after seeing his performance this season, he has done nothing to indicate he has the ability, or is ready to take on the role of a major league reliever. To say that you do not think Bradford would be effective is one thing, but to say that Wasserman would outperform him is absolutely asinine.

soxfanreggie
08-10-2008, 02:28 PM
Was at the game and it took us a while to figure out that he didn't get spiked. You have to feel for the guy because he was pitching well. This should end his career with the White Sox, and I wouldn't be surprised if he hangs it up for good. Hopefully the Sox were able to get insurance on his contract in case of injury.

As for the ovation, I think it was mostly people not knowing what happened.

I think with Garcia hitting about 86 now, you can probably expect him to hit 88-90, but I don't think he'd be able to go long and I think the 90 would be a few pitches. Hopefully, if the Sox do make a play at him, that he proves me wrong.