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View Full Version : Dye, Quentin: MVP?


soxfan123
08-06-2008, 04:43 PM
Do they have a chance? If the Sox go to the playoffs they will, or if they continue to be hot when the voting occurs. I would imagine these are their contenders:

Angels: None
Mariners: None
A's: None
Rangers: Kinsler, Hamilton, Bradley

Tigers: Cabrera, Maggs --They will only have a chance if the Tigers make the playoffs, I would imagine.
Royals: None
Twins: Morneau
Indians: Sizemore -- He won't win because of the illegitimate team surrounding him.

Yankees: Rodriguez
Red Sox: Youkilis -- I guess.
Orioles: None
Tampa Bay: None
Blue Jays: None

In my mind, the only contenders are Kinsler, Hamilton, and Alex Rodriguez.

turners56
08-06-2008, 04:53 PM
Do they have a chance? If the Sox go to the playoffs they will, or if they continue to be hot when the voting occurs. I would imagine these are their contenders:

Angels: None
Mariners: None
A's: None
Rangers: Kinsler, Hamilton, Bradley

Tigers: Cabrera, Maggs --They will only have a chance if the Tigers make the playoffs, I would imagine.
Royals: None
Twins: Morneau
Indians: Sizemore -- He won't win because of the illegitimate team surrounding him.

Yankees: Rodriguez
Red Sox: Youkilis -- I guess.
Orioles: None
Tampa Bay: None
Blue Jays: None

In my mind, the only contenders are Kinsler, Hamilton, and Alex Rodriguez.

Bradley has the best sabermetric stats out of everybody. The only one that comes close is A-Rod. According to the people who think OPS and OPS+ are the complete analysis to the productivity of a player, Bradley should win in a long haul...

I obviously don't agree.

Jim Shorts
08-06-2008, 04:54 PM
Do they have a chance? If the Sox go to the playoffs they will, or if they continue to be hot when the voting occurs. I would imagine these are their contenders:

Angels: None
Mariners: None
A's: None
Rangers: Kinsler, Hamilton, Bradley

Tigers: Cabrera, Maggs --They will only have a chance if the Tigers make the playoffs, I would imagine.
Royals: None
Twins: Morneau
Indians: Sizemore -- He won't win because of the illegitimate team surrounding him.

Yankees: Rodriguez
Red Sox: Youkilis -- I guess.
Orioles: None
Tampa Bay: None
Blue Jays: None

In my mind, the only contenders are Kinsler, Hamilton, and Alex Rodriguez.

K-Rod quietly raises his hand.

turners56
08-06-2008, 04:55 PM
K-Rod quietly raises his hand.

Closers can barely win the Cy Young. Since when should they even get considered for MVP?

BRDSR
08-06-2008, 04:56 PM
Yankees: Rodriguez


Ivan Rodriguez?!?!?! Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!

Seriously though, I think this thread has been started five times in the past two weeks. In my opinion, the Sox have to make the playoffs (pretty obvious) and both would still need to go on extra impressive tears over the next couple months to win it. If they continue at this pace, they'll be in the running, maybe both in the top 5, but neither will win it.

soxfan123
08-06-2008, 05:07 PM
Bradley has the best sabermetric stats out of everybody. The only one that comes close is A-Rod. According to the people who think OPS and OPS+ are the complete analysis to the productivity of a player, Bradley should win in a long haul...

I obviously don't agree.

He is a DH. They rarely win the award. Remember Ortiz in 2005?

turners56
08-06-2008, 05:08 PM
He is a DH. They rarely win the award. Remember Ortiz in 2005?

The problem with argument is that Bradley is a capable outfielder. It just turns out that the Rangers have too many outfielders, so he's forced to DH.

Plus, he did have an ACL injury last year.

soxfan123
08-06-2008, 05:14 PM
The problem with argument is that Bradley is a capable outfielder. It just turns out that the Rangers have too many outfielders, so he's forced to DH.

Plus, he did have an ACL injury last year.


Regardless of his capabilities, he still doesn't contribute defensively.

DumpJerry
08-06-2008, 05:24 PM
Nobody on the Angels, huh? :scratch:

Teams making the playoffs does not guarantee that only their players will get CY Young, ROY, MVP, Gold Glove, etc. consideration.

UofCSoxFan
08-06-2008, 05:27 PM
I think it's a joke that Hamilton (feel good story with a lot of RBI) on a bad team and K-Rod (having a ton of saves, but his "periferals" aren't even the best amongst closers) are the two leading MVP candidates.

The MVP award is not the Player of the Year Award. It is not meant to identify the player having the best statistical year, but rather the player that is most critical to his teams success.

Hamilton's team isn't going to make the playoffs so really how valuable is he. K-Rod's saves are the function of him being on a good team that wins a lot of close games. I'm not so sure they wouldn't have one these games with out him.

You take the Sox without TCQ or Dye and they are 10 games out. The Twins without Morneau are burried. The Rays have a bunch of solid players and depth so I don't know if they have any candidates...same with the BoSox. I suppose A-Rod deserves some consideration as well.

Jim Shorts
08-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Closers can barely win the Cy Young. Since when should they even get considered for MVP?

When they're damn near perfect.

turners56
08-06-2008, 05:29 PM
I think it's a joke that Hamilton (feel good story with a lot of RBI) on a bad team and K-Rod (having a ton of saves, but his "periferals" aren't even the best amongst closers) are the two leading MVP candidates.

The MVP award is not the Player of the Year Award. It is not meant to identify the player having the best statistical year, but rather the player that is most critical to his teams success.

Hamilton's team isn't going to make the playoffs so really how valuable is he. K-Rod's saves are the function of him being on a good team that wins a lot of close games. I'm not so sure they wouldn't have one these games with out him.

You take the Sox without TCQ or Dye and they are 10 games out. The Twins without Morneau are burried. The Rays have a bunch of solid players and depth so I don't know if they have any candidates...same with the BoSox. I suppose A-Rod deserves some consideration as well.

That is where the argument begins...

The definition of MVP is so varied based on different opinions.

turners56
08-06-2008, 05:30 PM
When they're damn near perfect.

K-Rod has not been perfect. He's blown 3 saves and doesn't even have a very impressive WHIP or ERA compared to the likes of Nathan and Rivera.

Paulwny
08-06-2008, 05:35 PM
That is where the argument begins...

The definition of MVP is so varied based on different opinions.

Yep, in 1952 Hank Sauer was MVP. The Cubs finished 5th, 19 games out of 1st.

SOXPHILE
08-06-2008, 05:42 PM
Yep, in 1952 Hank Sauer was MVP. The Cubs finished 5th, 19 games out of 1st.

1987, Andre Dawson won the MVP, Cubs finished 6th (last).

shes
08-06-2008, 05:43 PM
A-Rod should win. Hamilton is slowing down. TCQ or Morneau will finish top-3 if their team wins the division.

Jim Shorts
08-06-2008, 05:52 PM
K-Rod has not been perfect. He's blown 3 saves and doesn't even have a very impressive WHIP or ERA compared to the likes of Nathan and Rivera.

Easy, tiger. I think you just like to argue. First I said he quietly raises his hand. Then I did NOT say he was perfect. I said damn near.

I don't think pitcher should win the award, espcially bull pen guys. But his stats are worthy of discussion.

turners56
08-06-2008, 05:53 PM
Easy, tiger. I think you just like to argue. First I said he quietly raises his hand. Then I did NOT say he was perfect. I said damn near.

I don't think pitcher should win the award, espcially bull pen guys. But his stats are worthy of discussion.

I don't know if I come off as aggressive or something, but I'm not arguing. Just making a point.

eriqjaffe
08-06-2008, 05:55 PM
:hawk
"Carlos Gómez"

turners56
08-06-2008, 06:00 PM
:hawk
"Carlos Gómez"

:hawk

"I'll tell ya what fiesty, Carlos Gomez might have a sub-300 .OBP, but who daggum cares? I never got those complicated stats anyhow. Back in the day, nobody even knew what the heck OBP was. This Gomez kid, he has some of the fastest wheels ever and he makes things happen. I don't care about that Justin Morneau and that Joe Mauer kid, this kid makes it happen and it's always in crucial situations. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit. It would be a shame if he doesn't get the MVP."

shes
08-06-2008, 06:02 PM
Easy, tiger. I think you just like to argue. First I said he quietly raises his hand. Then I did NOT say he was perfect. I said damn near.

I don't think pitcher should win the award, espcially bull pen guys. But his stats are worthy of discussion.

Nathan and Rivera have both been a good deal better than K-Rod this season.

soxfan123
08-06-2008, 06:05 PM
There is absolutely no way that K-Rod will win MVP. Even a damn near perfect closer cannot change the game the way a great hitter can.

That said, I think that if the Yankees make the playoffs, A-Rod will win it.

No, it is not necessarily the teams in the playoffs that get the hardware, but it does help significantly, and rightfully so.

PennStater98r
08-06-2008, 06:26 PM
People to consider for each team based only on numbers so far:

Tampa Bay - Longoria
Boston - Youkilis
New York - A-Rod, Abreu (he'd have to get much hotter)
Toronto - no one
Baltimore - Huff

Chicago - Dye, Quentin
Minnesota - Morneau, Mauer
Detroit - Cabrera, Magglio
Kansas City - no one
Cleveland - Sizemore

L.A. - Hunter
Texas - Kinsler, Hamilton, Bradley
Oakland - no one (though look at Thomas' number with Oakland .290 Avg)
Seattle - Ichiro (long shot - have to flirt with 250+ hits)

So, when you look at all the names up there we'll start with the bottom feeder teams. Sizemore, Ichiro and Huff would have to have exceptionally special numbers - none of which do. Though I would argue that if Ichiro turned it on, took the batting crown and flirted with his single season record again - vote would be obtained. That said, it ain't happening. I don't like Abreu unless they finish in the play-offs nor do I like A-Rod unless he just busts a ton more homeruns than everyone else. It really comes down to Hunter, Hamilton (though I think Kinsler is the most valuable player to that team), Dye and or Quentin and Mauer or Morneau.

In past, catchers have been given breaks when no one has numbers that jump out - especially if they manager a pitching staff that excels.

If the season were to end today, I honestly believe it would be between, Mauer, Quentin and Hamilton...

turners56
08-06-2008, 06:27 PM
People to consider for each team based only on numbers so far:

Tampa Bay - Longoria
Boston - Youkilis
New York - A-Rod, Abreu (he'd have to get much hotter)
Toronto - no one
Baltimore - Huff

Chicago - Dye, Quentin
Minnesota - Morneau, Mauer
Detroit - Cabrera, Magglio
Kansas City - no one
Cleveland - Sizemore

L.A. - Hunter
Texas - Kinsler, Hamilton, Bradley
Oakland - no one (though look at Thomas' number with Oakland .290 Avg)
Seattle - Ichiro (long shot - have to flirt with 250+ hits)

So, when you look at all the names up there we'll start with the bottom feeder teams. Sizemore, Ichiro and Huff would have to have exceptionally special numbers - none of which do. Though I would argue that if Ichiro turned it on, took the batting crown and flirted with his single season record again - vote would be obtained. That said, it ain't happening. I don't like Abreu unless they finish in the play-offs nor do I like A-Rod unless he just busts a ton more homeruns than everyone else. It really comes down to Hunter, Hamilton (though I think Kinsler is the most valuable player to that team), Dye and or Quentin and Mauer or Morneau.

In past, catchers have been given breaks when no one has numbers that jump out - especially if they manager a pitching staff that excels.

If the season were to end today, I honestly believe it would be between, Mauer, Quentin and Hamilton...

Guerrero has been better than Hunter this year. Hunter's had a very mediocre offensive season for his standards. So has Guerrero.

Save McCuddy's
08-06-2008, 06:36 PM
Closers can barely win the Cy Young. Since when should they even get considered for MVP?

Off the top of my head, Willie Hernandez won both AL MVP and AL CY in 1984 as did Eckersley in '92. Eck was top 10 in MVP balloting at least another 3 times.

Closers can and will win MVP awards. A better question would be about whether starting pitchers can win an MVP in this era.

kjhanson
08-06-2008, 06:52 PM
A-Rod should win.

Is it because he's hitting .245 with RISP or because he's hitting .227 with RISP and 2 outs? Maybe it's his .213/.339/.340 in Late and Close situations. Wait, nope, I got it; it's his .412/.474/.922 when the score difference is greater than four runs. Talk about a guy inflating his stats when it doesn't matter. Those splits are are terrible. Any consideration he gets for MVP is undeniably unwarranted.

BTW, Carlos is hitting .330 with RISP, .297 with RISP and 2 outs. Late and Close? Yeah, he's hitting a sexy .349/.446/.714.

Josh Hamilton is hitting better than Carlos with runners on, but Carlos is King of the league Late and Close. Somebody cue the photo of Hawk...

UofCSoxFan
08-06-2008, 07:18 PM
That is where the argument begins...

The definition of MVP is so varied based on different opinions.

I mean you're right...many people view it as the best player.

I'm fine if you want to do that...but then name it the Player of the Year Award. MVP--MOST VALUABLE PLAYER--should not be considered the same thing. Some guys can put up monster numberes on crappy teams with no pressure on when teams are thowing them nothing but fastballs because the score is 10-2. Those are not MVPs. It was a joke when Dawson won it on the league's worst team. If they wouldn't have been any worse off in the standings with me out there how valuable was he.

PennStater98r
08-06-2008, 10:39 PM
Guerrero has been better than Hunter this year. Hunter's had a very mediocre offensive season for his standards. So has Guerrero.

Don't think you're correct about that.

Two players:

26 2B, 18 HR, 66 R, 60 RBI .281 Avg, .344 OBP, .494 SLG
18 2B, 19 HR, 62 R, 60 RBI, .284 Avg, .348 OBP, .485 SLG

Who's had the better season out of those two guys - without looking up who's got what stats?

fusillirob1983
08-06-2008, 10:59 PM
Don't think you're correct about that.

Two players:

26 2B, 18 HR, 66 R, 60 RBI .281 Avg, .344 OBP, .494 SLG
18 2B, 19 HR, 62 R, 60 RBI, .284 Avg, .348 OBP, .485 SLG

Who's had the better season out of those two guys - without looking up who's got what stats?

Whichever are Vlad's are mediocre for Vlad. Whichever are Torii's are good for Torii. Regardless, neither are comparable to what some other guys have done this season (Dye, Quentin, Morneau, Hamilton, Bradley, A-Rod)

turners56
08-06-2008, 11:11 PM
Don't think you're correct about that.

Two players:

26 2B, 18 HR, 66 R, 60 RBI .281 Avg, .344 OBP, .494 SLG
18 2B, 19 HR, 62 R, 60 RBI, .284 Avg, .348 OBP, .485 SLG

Who's had the better season out of those two guys - without looking up who's got what stats?

Hunter has gotten hot lately, he was real mediocre before his recent streak.

Nellie_Fox
08-07-2008, 01:47 AM
This was just discussed recently.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104178

Save McCuddy's
08-07-2008, 10:51 AM
A lot has changed in 5 days. But seriously, Quentin's recent hot streak has had to have vaulted him into serious consideration for the award. If he finishes tops in HR, 2nd in RBI and we make the playoffs I would think he has a great shot.

turners56
08-07-2008, 11:00 AM
I mean you're right...many people view it as the best player.

I'm fine if you want to do that...but then name it the Player of the Year Award. MVP--MOST VALUABLE PLAYER--should not be considered the same thing. Some guys can put up monster numberes on crappy teams with no pressure on when teams are thowing them nothing but fastballs because the score is 10-2. Those are not MVPs. It was a joke when Dawson won it on the league's worst team. If they wouldn't have been any worse off in the standings with me out there how valuable was he.

It's not me thinking the award should go to the player with the best stats, I'm just saying that that is what most people think it should be. I think Quentin and Dye should both finish top 5 with one of them possibly winning. I got flammed for it on another baseball board.

Reason being? Milton Bradley is leading the league in OPS, OBP, and AVG and Quentin is 6th in OPS. Somehow, OPS is the end all and be all of all statistics in judging players...

It's a great stat, no doubt, but people think that all stats translate over when playing in a different park and different team for 162 games. Therefore, they think that because Bradley has a higher OPS by about 90 points, he would make a bigger difference. They also seem to think that certain players shouldn't be penalized for being on bad teams...

These are the same people who told me that Brian Roberts was better than JD...Yeah, I know.

soxfanreggie
08-07-2008, 06:50 PM
A-Rod will probably win it, but I think the Sox will have 2 in the top 10 and maybe someone in the top 3. We still have a lot of baseball to play though.