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thomas35forever
08-03-2008, 02:18 PM
I felt this needed a thread of its own since some people have their heads too far up their asses to realize it:

Just because KW didn't acquire a pitcher at the deadline doesn't mean he didn't try. There were Deadline Day rumors that he was going after John Lannan of the Nationals, whose numbers likely translated into a high asking price. Let's face it. We're an organization whose success is based soley on that of our Major League club. We don't have a lot of depth in the minors. We basically gave up a lot of the little we had in the Swisher deal. To get a pitcher, we would've had to give up Josh Fields at least. With next year's third base situation uncertain and Crede on the DL, there was no way that could happen. If we didn't give up Fields, then someone one or two key guys on our big-league roster would've had to go.

In short, KW didn't want to risk our pennant chances for this year by losing at least one guy that would've been impossible to replace in two months and beyond. You might thank him someday for not trading key guys on our '08 roster away.

It's Dankerific
08-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Yep, lets all pitch in and get him a "Good Try" Ribbon.

munchman33
08-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Yeah, he tried to do what was necessary to win the division but couldn't. I feel so much better.

Too bad we traded the bulk of our prospects with value in the offseason for a guy we didn't need and isn't very good.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2008, 02:56 PM
I'm sure he tried.

He just didn't like the prices.

I hope some of these prospects pan out.

I'm not enthusiastic about Fields, Poreda or Broadway. I guess Getz could be OK.

Hopefully Beckham and Danks will advance through the system quickly.

Daver
08-03-2008, 02:57 PM
I'm sure he tried.

He just didn't like the prices.

I hope some of these prospects pan out.

I'm not enthusiastic about Fields, Poreda or Broadway. I guess Getz could be OK.

Hopefully Beckham and Danks will advance through the system quickly.

They have to sign first.

sox1970
08-03-2008, 02:58 PM
They have to sign first.

12 more days...

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2008, 02:58 PM
They have to sign first.

I hope they do.

Domeshot17
08-03-2008, 03:01 PM
Kenny does not get paid to try. He gets paid to get **** done.

Construction workers don't get paid to try and build buildings. Chefs don't get paid to try and make food and Sales people don't get paid to try and make sales. They get paid to get it done. Kenny is no different, and its mostly his own fault that we don't have anything worth a damn in the minors for a trade. I like Kenny, but someday he has to be held responsible for his moves and lack of moves.

sox1970
08-03-2008, 03:02 PM
Kenny does not get paid to try. He gets paid to get **** done.

Construction workers don't get paid to try and build buildings. Chefs don't get paid to try and make food and Sales people don't get paid to try and make sales. They get paid to get it done. Kenny is no different, and its mostly his own fault that we don't have anything worth a damn in the minors for a trade. I like Kenny, but someday he has to be held responsible for his moves and lack of moves.

:violin:

Bill Naharodny
08-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Yeah, he tried to do what was necessary to win the division but couldn't. I feel so much better.

Too bad we traded the bulk of our prospects with value in the offseason for a guy we didn't need and isn't very good.

Ding.

That's not hindsight for a lot of us, either.

Domeshot17
08-03-2008, 03:08 PM
:violin:

It's ok, keep defending Kenny blindly. Ignore the fact he didn't add a pitcher to an imploding staff, ignore the fact every first round pick for the last few years until Beckham (jury is out) has been a bust. Ignore he overpaid to get Swisher because he struck out in Free Agency and dealt out top 2 pitching prospects for a guy hitting below .250.

Like I said, I like Kenny, but he did not get it done this year. He has about broken even over the years with his trades. For every Todd Ritchie there is a Danks, for every Swisher there is a Quentin. No GM is flawless, but if our starters and bullpen keep us out of the playoffs, its on him 100%.

35th and Shields
08-03-2008, 03:14 PM
Kenny does not get paid to try. He gets paid to get **** done.

Construction workers don't get paid to try and build buildings. Chefs don't get paid to try and make food and Sales people don't get paid to try and make sales. They get paid to get it done. Kenny is no different, and its mostly his own fault that we don't have anything worth a damn in the minors for a trade. I like Kenny, but someday he has to be held responsible for his moves and lack of moves.

Give me a break. Kenny Williams is one of the best GM's in all of professional sports. Saying that he didn't do his job because he tried to make a deal and didn't get it done is stupid. Kenny's job is to make his team the best it can be now and in the future not making trades at every deadline if the price isn't right

sox1970
08-03-2008, 03:15 PM
It's ok, keep defending Kenny blindly. Ignore the fact he didn't add a pitcher to an imploding staff, ignore the fact every first round pick for the last few years until Beckham (jury is out) has been a bust. Ignore he overpaid to get Swisher because he struck out in Free Agency and dealt out top 2 pitching prospects for a guy hitting below .250.

Like I said, I like Kenny, but he did not get it done this year. He has about broken even over the years with his trades. For every Todd Ritchie there is a Danks, for every Swisher there is a Quentin. No GM is flawless, but if our starters and bullpen keep us out of the playoffs, its on him 100%.

Ya know, I actually agree with you to a point. The minor league system is not good. I'm willing to see what happens the next couple years with Buddy Bell running things. These things take time.

My defense of Kenny at the deadline is that he didn't overpay for a guy like Duchscherer or Street. He wanted to get Brian Roberts, but the Orioles wanted Danks or Floyd, Fields, and others. What do you expect him to do in that situation?

So, yes, I agree the system is thin and he should share in that responsibility, but I can't blame him for not making more deals at the deadline.

If anything, his moves for the stretch run were made before the season started when they signed Dotel and Linebrink.

munchman33
08-03-2008, 03:36 PM
he couldn't overpay for a guy like Duchscherer or Street.

fixed it for you.

munchman33
08-03-2008, 03:38 PM
Give me a break. Kenny Williams is one of the best GM's in all of professional sports. Saying that he didn't do his job because he tried to make a deal and didn't get it done is stupid. Kenny's job is to make his team the best it can be now and in the future not making trades at every deadline if the price isn't right

He handcuffed himself with a particularly bad preseason trade. It's 100% his fault we couldn't trade for a starter. There was no "crazy price" to pay. We simply didn't have anything to give.

Viva Medias B's
08-03-2008, 03:48 PM
I'll just say that KW should not be above criticism. I am sure he wanted to get pitching help before the deadline, but perhaps it was not readily available. What I hope is that his longtime desire to get Griffey did not override his judgement on what the team's priorities are. If we somehow fail to make the playoffs, which I doubt because I expect us to win the AL Central despite today's disaster, KW should be the No. 1 person held accountable.

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 03:55 PM
Kenny just didn't have the pieces to deal. Fields was his best chip and given Crede's evil agent, it makes a lot of sense that he didn't deal Fields.

Broadway having a horrible year plus setbacks to John Shelby and Jose Martinez really handcuffed our GM. We needed a SP more than anything, and we didn't have enough to pick one up without sacrificing pieces of the '09 team. I'm very glad KW didn't splurge for a RP because those are the deals that really come back to haunt clubs.

I still realize that as a Sox fan I had very low hopes for this team. So far we've exceeded my hopes (.500 ballclub) by leaps and bounds, and I think some real credit is due. Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, and Danks were HUGE additions and because of those additions we're now a contender in 2008 and in the future. I love the Griffey acquistion and if nothing else I'm really looking forward to 2009.

We have a new core and a lot of maneuverability going into next year, and Kenny was able to overturn a completely horse**** team into a playoff contender. I still think the Angels are the best team in baseball and WS favorites by far, and I don't like our playoff chances at all, but I love what Kenny has been able to do and anything from this point on is icing on the cake.

I love our GM and I'm hoping the scouting/player development controversy was a blessing in disguise that leads to the changes we need at the minor league level to make us a legitimate contender for the next 10 years.

munchman33
08-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Kenny just didn't have the pieces to deal. Fields was his best chip and given Crede's evil agent, it makes a lot of sense that he didn't deal Fields.

Broadway having a horrible year plus setbacks to John Shelby and Jose Martinez really handcuffed our GM. We needed a SP more than anything, and we didn't have enough to pick one up without sacrificing pieces of the '09 team. I'm very glad KW didn't splurge for a RP because those are the deals that really come back to haunt clubs.

I still realize that as a Sox fan I had very low hopes for this team. So far we've exceeded my hopes (.500 ballclub) by leaps and bounds, and I think some real credit is due. Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, and Danks were HUGE additions and because of those additions we're now a contender in 2008 and in the future. I love the Griffey acquistion and if nothing else I'm really looking forward to 2009.

We have a new core and a lot of maneuverability going into next year, and Kenny was able to overturn a completely horse**** team into a playoff contender. I still think the Angels are the best team in baseball and WS favorites by far, and I don't like our playoff chances at all, but I love what Kenny has been able to do and anything from this point on is icing on the cake.

I love our GM and I'm hoping the scouting/player development controversy was a blessing in disguise that leads to the changes we need at the minor league level to make us a legitimate contender for the next 10 years.

A package of Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney would certainly have netted us a deadline starter...

TDog
08-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Ding.

That's not hindsight for a lot of us, either.

No, it's not. I have no idea what Kenny Williams saw in Nick Swisher, but it's obvious he acquired him to play center this year. I was against the trade wihtout seeing what the Sox gave up. But maybe I'll be proven wrong. Really, he is a good guy and probably is a good guy to have on your team. I still wouldn't start him over Paul Konerko or Brian Anderson, and he doesn't hit well enough to DH.

By the same token, there could have been some bad deals to be made at the trade deadline that weren't made. People here who were excited about the prospect of obtaining Huston Street haven't watched him pitch this year. He looks like the sort of pitcher Sox fans are complaining about having on their team.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Well, ya know, you can't spend a dollar when you only got fifty cents.:shrug:

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 04:23 PM
A package of Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney would certainly have netted us a deadline starter...
Agreed, although if we had Sweeney out there this year I doubt he'd have been on the block. Sweeney this year has been better than Swish.

Gio and Fields could have gotten us a lot though. And don't sleep on DLS either, because in this day in age, arm surgery doesn't mean it's over at all. He could be a prized piece this time next year. He was hitting triple digits in ST with Oakland.

35th and Shields
08-03-2008, 04:24 PM
A package of Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney would certainly have netted us a deadline starter...

your right it could've gotten us a pretty good pitcher but Kenny's an aggressive GM. He makes deals and turned this team from a bad and aging team to a contender. I think everyone here wanted us to get to a good pitcher to put us over the top and stabilize the rotation and bullpen but we didn't and I don't think its because we didn't have enough.

I guess my point is that why don't you guys trust kenny? People bring up the swisher trade but look where DLS and Gio are now. DLS is on the shelf for a year with tommy john surgey and Gio is struggling in A's system. Yes Sweeney has looked good this year but did you honestly think that he was better then Swisher based off of what we saw in last couple of years?

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2008, 04:26 PM
your right it could've gotten us a pretty good pitcher but Kenny's an aggressive GM. He makes deals and turned this team from a bad and aging team to a contender. I think everyone here wanted us to get to a good pitcher to put us over the top and stabilize the rotation and bullpen but we didn't and I don't think its because we didn't have enough.

I guess my point is that why don't you guys trust kenny? People bring up the swisher trade but look where DLS and Gio are now. DLS is on the shelf for a year with tommy john surgey and Gio is struggling in A's system. Yes Sweeney has looked good this year but did you honestly think that he was better then Swisher based off of what we saw in last couple of years?
Actually I think the A's were just talking about bringing Gio up because he's again leading the league in strikeouts.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2008, 04:26 PM
I would have liked to have kept Sweeney.

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 04:27 PM
No, it's not. I have no idea what Kenny Williams saw in Nick Swisher, but it's obvious he acquired him to play center this year. I was against the trade wihtout seeing what the Sox gave up. But maybe I'll be proven wrong. Really, he is a good guy and probably is a good guy to have on your team. I still wouldn't start him over Paul Konerko or Brian Anderson, and he doesn't hit well enough to DH.

By the same token, there could have been some bad deals to be made at the trade deadline that weren't made. People here who were excited about the prospect of obtaining Huston Street haven't watched him pitch this year. He looks like the sort of pitcher Sox fans are complaining about having on their team.
To be fair though, you're a Cali guy. A lot of us in Chicago, including me, thought Swish was going to be a huge addition away from all that foul territory. You had the chance to see a lot more of him than we did.

As far as Kenny goes, I'm sure he had some of his scouts giving him the green light on the Swisher deal. Hopefully those guys are proven right in the future, but right now it looks like Kenny got hosed.

Daver
08-03-2008, 04:31 PM
A package of Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney would certainly have netted us a deadline starter...

And you know this how?


How many starters got moved before the deadline?

Tragg
08-03-2008, 04:43 PM
I got the sense that the Swisher deal was another reactive deal sort of like Cabrera - GM calls him up and says X was available. I also think that the Sox woeful OBP in 2007, was a reason to get a guy who can get on base (unfortunately, he's not really a leadoff man). Still 3 of the organization's top 2 prospects ( and top 2 pitching prospects) was excessive.

Had Williams known for sure that TCQ would hit like TCQ, I doubt that he would have made the Swisher deal. He could have gone with Owens, BA or Sweeney in center (Ozzie would obviously have wanted Owens). He really thinned out the pitching with that deal and with the Cabrera deal...but it may all work out.

PatK
08-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Maybe we can pull something off the waiver wire.

Plenty of baseball left.

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 04:55 PM
I got the sense that the Swisher deal was another reactive deal sort of like Cabrera - GM calls him up and says X was available. I also think that the Sox woeful OBP in 2007, was a reason to get a guy who can get on base (unfortunately, he's not really a leadoff man).

Had Williams known for sure that TCQ would hit like TCQ, I doubt that he would have made the Swisher deal. He could have gone with Owens, BA or Sweeney in center (Ozzie would obviously have wanted Owens). He really thinned out the pitching with that deal and with the Cabrera deal...but it may all work out.
Agreed, and in hindsight, can you imagine Kenny calling up the Reds and offering Fields (coming off of that huge rookie season) PLUS DLS, Gio, and Sweeney for Hamilton? Wow, that would have been awesome.

I didn't like the Garland deal and I still don't like it now, but at least Cabrera is going to net us draft picks. I say good riddance. Cabrera isn't a fit here and hopefully the players we draft are high ceiling guys that JR will allow us to go over slot for.

HangWiffum
08-03-2008, 05:03 PM
Do or Do not. There is no try. A general manager is not graded on trades alone. His free agent signings have been suspect and his drafting have been bad.

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Do or Do not. There is no try. A general manager is not graded on trades alone. His free agent signings have been suspect and his drafting have been bad.
His FA signings have been suspect? How?

He signed Hall, who is doing very well.
He signed Linebrink and Dotel, and they're two big reasons we're where we are.
He signed Hermanson, Dye, etc. who have done very well here.

You name me ONE bad FA signing Kenny Williams has made and I'll agree with you, because I can't think of any.

Tragg
08-03-2008, 05:18 PM
Agreed, and in hindsight, can you imagine Kenny calling up the Reds and offering Fields (coming off of that huge rookie season) PLUS DLS, Gio, and Sweeney for Hamilton? Wow, that would have been awesome.

He could have done that deal for a smaller package - the genius would have been identifying Hamilton. I think he could have gotten Swisher for a smaller package - just my opinion.
He got Quentin for 1 prospect.

As for FA signings, he hasn't done a blockbuster signing; and he's made several bad small signings. (Erstad, Bukvich Myers, and other).
Dotel and Linebrink are still undetermined.
Ramirez looks real good (get a coach to teach him the strike zone please!)

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 05:24 PM
He could have done that deal for a smaller package - the genius would have been identifying Hamilton. I think he could have gotten Swisher for a smaller package - just my opinion.
He got Quentin for 1 prospect.

As for FA signings, he hasn't done a blockbuster signing; and he's made several bad small signings. (Erstad, Bukvich Myers, and other).
Dotel and Linebrink are still undetermined.
Ramirez looks real good (get a coach to teach him the strike zone please!)
I will have to disagree with you on his signings. With Grinderstad, he was supposed to be a 4th OF (and even though I hate Grinderstad still to this day because he **** in my Cheerios, I thought he would make a nice 4th OF) but Ozzie chose the great Ankleturnstad as a CF over Anderson. I think that was a lot more to do with Ozzie than Kenny. And Bukvich was on a minor league contract, and Meyers was a career lefty specialist or 5th/6th inning guy so it didn't hurt giving him a shot. Any low risk/high reward deals I can back. It's not like Kenny made any enormous mistakes though, like the Angels did signing GMJ.

Edit: Just so the mods know, the past tense of the s word isn't blocked here, so I went ahead and starred it out myself.

spiffie
08-03-2008, 05:35 PM
All the would-be GM's can send their resumes to 333 W. 35th St. I'm sure your work of message board posting and possibly being a GM on PS3 will convince Reinsdorf you'll do a far better job than the guy who put together Chicago's first World Series winner since WWI.

TomBradley72
08-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Yeah, he tried to do what was necessary to win the division but couldn't. I feel so much better.

Too bad we traded the bulk of our prospects with value in the offseason for a guy we didn't need and isn't very good.

Exactly. And the problem compounds itself because we have to find a role for him...so he gets stuck out of position in CF...delivering mediocre defense with a .230's batting average. But he brings alot of energy and he walks alot!

TomBradley72
08-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Give me a break. Kenny Williams is one of the best GM's in all of professional sports.

Get real. One post season appearance (with a World Series Championship) in 8 seasons is not enough. The minor league system is in disarray. KW has had oversight of this area of the White Sox for a VERY long time (starting before his GM role).

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 05:58 PM
Get real. One post season appearance (with a World Series Championship) in 8 seasons is not enough. The minor league system is in disarray. KW has had oversight of this area of the White Sox for a VERY long time (starting before his GM role).
KW took over when the Sox farm system was among the best in all of baseball. But, given the FBI investigations of Wilder and other Sox employees, you can't fault KW IMO. How is Kenny going to know what's going on when his own employees are stabbing him in the back? As a GM you have to trust people, and obviously those people Kenny trusted have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. Give Kenny another chance with some better people and we'll see what happens.

The last few drafts prior to the '08 draft have been bad, there's no other way to put it. But again, consider that he's been listening to the wrong people and consider that his owner doesn't like to go over slot. With the restrictions Kenny has had to work under I think he's done a phenomenal job. I'll criticize anyone in the organization, but I can't criticize Kenny because he's done some remarkable things here. Look at how he won the WS in '05. Look at how he took a 90-loss team and in one year turned it into a probable 90-win team without splurging on the FA market. That's just amazing, whether you like the guy or not. Give him his credit. He's a winner.

Tragg
08-03-2008, 07:39 PM
The last few drafts prior to the '08 draft have been bad, there's no other way to put it. .
But even this draft - he drafts his son.
come on.

Daver
08-03-2008, 07:42 PM
Edit: Just so the mods know, the past tense of the s word isn't blocked here, so I went ahead and starred it out myself.

Most people don't know what the past tense is.

Optipessimism
08-03-2008, 07:42 PM
But even this draft - he drafts his son.
come on.
I'll give you that.

Tragg
08-03-2008, 07:54 PM
I'll give you that.

Somebody made a good point above - Williams is an aggressive GM so naturally he will make a lot of mistakes.
Somebody made another good point - he's had ONE playoff team in his tenure.
I think the disconnect between what Ozzie wants and what Ozzie needs has made it tough on Kenny. Ozzie wants to be aggresive, which is good, but he loves these swing at everything hitters - even the bad swing at everything hitters. Williams needs to get Ozzie some hitters who can get on base and run and bunt....and keep the hackers away from Ozzie. In particular, Williams hasn't been able to get a real leadoff hitter on this team. (except for a year or 2 of Pods). I know our O is statistically good - but it would be a lot more consistent with some OBP and speed up top. .325 out of the leadoff is an anchor.

Domeshot17
08-03-2008, 08:10 PM
How come we let Kenny hang his hat on 1 world series win and 1 playoff appearance? I don't hear people say OZZIE WON A WORLD SERIES when he leaves a starter in too long or brings ion the wrong reliever. I don't hear people giving PK the free pass because he hit a Grand Slam in a World Series. We didn't give Cliff Politte or Neil Cotts much love when they left, and Uribe, we've been trying to get rid of him since day 1 of the year 2006.


So if we let everyone else have it for not doing their job, and we say we aren't letting them live in the Past, why the Free Pass for Kenny?

2007 he built a disgrace of a team. We had everyday lineups with the likes of Cintron Uribe Terrero Andy Gonzalez and Owens everyday, with Erstad filling in when healthy. We had a bullpen relying on guys like Bukvich and co.

This year, he made some great moves (Quentin, Dotel, Linebrink) and some bad ones (I LOVE Swisher, but he vastly overpaid). on top of it, we don't know if Dotel and Linebrink will be worth the duration of their deals, but so far so good.

He has depleted and failed to restock our minor leagues. I don't want to hear how you can't stock a minor league system when you win, because the Twins Yankees Red Sox Angels all manage to do it. Part of it is money, and part of it is we have one of the worst development philosophies in baseball. We draft low floor easy sign prospects like Poreda and Broadway and pass on tougher signs higher ceiling guys like Porcello. We had the plessure of having Beckham fall into our laps at 8 this draft with Smoak, but then we pissed away a 5th rounder on his Kid who wasn't even a real prospect. We took Danks who he has been after for a while, but he was very disappointing in College, showing very little power and only hitting around .320 (which is not a great College average). Maybe he will develop into a leadoff type hitter, but he looks at best right now as a Ryan Sweeney high contact low power OF with better speed.

Kenny isn't a BAD GM, but he isn't flawless either. He won a world series in 2005, but hasn't been back to the post season since. He had a chance this year, but because of many factors, he couldn't give the team an added boost. Hopefully Contreras and Linebrink can come back and contribute, but thats a big maybe, and only time will tell.

Adele_H
08-04-2008, 03:03 AM
I felt this needed a thread of its own since some people have their heads too far up their asses to realize it:

Just because KW didn't acquire a pitcher at the deadline doesn't mean he didn't try. There were Deadline Day rumors that he was going after John Lannan of the Nationals, whose numbers likely translated into a high asking price. Let's face it. We're an organization whose success is based soley on that of our Major League club. We don't have a lot of depth in the minors. We basically gave up a lot of the little we had in the Swisher deal. To get a pitcher, we would've had to give up Josh Fields at least. With next year's third base situation uncertain and Crede on the DL, there was no way that could happen. If we didn't give up Fields, then someone one or two key guys on our big-league roster would've had to go.

In short, KW didn't want to risk our pennant chances for this year by losing at least one guy that would've been impossible to replace in two months and beyond. You might thank him someday for not trading key guys on our '08 roster away.

Besides needing Linebrink & Crede to get healthy.... If Sox had any pressing need to dramatically improve their World Series chances, it was for

A) lead-off hitter in the Ichiro or healthy Rafael Furcal mold
B) Roy Halladay type ace

A) aside from Brian Roberts, who was even out there?
B) Toronto made him unavailable - and even if he was, offer of Fields + Floyd + Richard wasn't exactly gonna knock their socks off. Harden, Sabathia were already gone.

oeo
08-04-2008, 07:59 AM
Kenny does not get paid to try. He gets paid to get **** done.

Construction workers don't get paid to try and build buildings. Chefs don't get paid to try and make food and Sales people don't get paid to try and make sales. They get paid to get it done. Kenny is no different, and its mostly his own fault that we don't have anything worth a damn in the minors for a trade. I like Kenny, but someday he has to be held responsible for his moves and lack of moves.

:lol: It is quite different.

Look around, and you'll see the only teams that got relievers were the Yankees (a few days before...then lost one a couple days later), the Tigers (a couple days before), and the Marlins (at the deadline). That's it. What does that tell you? That Kenny was caught sleeping? Wrong. That we didn't have what it took to get something done? Wrong, again. It tells you that no team wanted to give up their relief pitching unless you were going to vastly overpay.

All I have to say, is things can turn on a dime. Contreras is coming back, which should bolster the rotation as long as he's healthy. We have other options in the bullpen in Derek Rodriguez and Jon Link, who should be brought in while Logan and Wassermann are sent down. I still think what we have can get the job done. We're struggling right now, for sure, but a month ago, who was going all wild over needing pitching help? No one. See how quickly things turned to bad? They can just as quickly turn to good.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 10:24 AM
All the would-be GM's can send their resumes to 333 W. 35th St. I'm sure your work of message board posting and possibly being a GM on PS3 will convince Reinsdorf you'll do a far better job than the guy who put together Chicago's first World Series winner since WWI.

That's bull****. Second guessing a GM after he makes a ridiculously bad trade that no one else in the business would be foolish enough to make (well, maybe Bill Bavasi) is every fans' right.

It isn't like I haven't been saying all along how horrible and amateur that deal was. It's completely crippled our season. And it completely outweighs the very good moves that Kenny has made. In the end, winning is all that matters. And if we don't win, it won't be because we didn't make the necessary move. It will be because we couldn't make the necessary move, because our GM made one of the worst trades in franchise history, trading our best three prospects for a mediocre ballplayer who couldn't hit that well and didn't play the position we needed him to well, instead of using those rescources on something that would help the team.

hi im skot
08-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Besides needing Linebrink & Crede to get healthy.... If Sox had any pressing need to dramatically improve their World Series chances, it was for

A) lead-off hitter in the Ichiro or healthy Rafael Furcal mold
B) Roy Halladay type ace


Every other team in the league would love to have those guys as well. Kenny isn't a magician...

spiffie
08-04-2008, 10:43 AM
That's bull****. Second guessing a GM after he makes a ridiculously bad trade that no one else in the business would be foolish enough to make (well, maybe Bill Bavasi) is every fans' right.

It isn't like I haven't been saying all along how horrible and amateur that deal was. It's completely crippled our season. And it completely outweighs the very good moves that Kenny has made. In the end, winning is all that matters. And if we don't win, it won't be because we didn't make the necessary move. It will be because we couldn't make the necessary move, because our GM made one of the worst trades in franchise history, trading our best three prospects for a mediocre ballplayer who couldn't hit that well and didn't play the position we needed him to well, instead of using those rescources on something that would help the team.
Yes, it's KW's fault that Swisher has underperformed what he could have been reasonably expected to do this year. :rolleyes:

Our team needed someone who could work counts and get on base at a solid clip beyond Thome. Swisher brought that, along with 30-35 HR power considering how he hit in the pitcher's paradise of Oakland. Sadly Swisher has been having a rough year. Also, if he held onto Gio, DLS, and Sweeney, how much value would they have lost this year with DLS having surgery, Gio underperforming, and Sweeney still languishing in the minors.

KW traded pieces at their max value for a cost-controlled player who seemed to fill some very pressing needs for the franchise. The fact that your ****-on-everything attitude happened to be somewhat correct for this trade doesn't make you a good evaluator of talent, it just means you stumbled on a nut.

TomBradley72
08-04-2008, 10:49 AM
Yes, it's KW's fault that Swisher has underperformed what he could have been reasonably expected to do this year. :rolleyes:

Our team needed someone who could work counts and get on base at a solid clip beyond Thome. Swisher brought that, along with 30-35 HR power considering how he hit in the pitcher's paradise of Oakland.

Swisher only delivered .262-22-78 last season...so a 30-35 HR projection would be a reach. The scary thing about Swisher is that even has bad as he's hit this season...he's only 17 points off his career average of .247.

spiffie
08-04-2008, 10:53 AM
Swisher only delivered .262-22-78 last season...so a 30-35 HR projection would be a reach. The scary thing about Swisher is that even has bad as he's hit this season...he's only 17 points off his career average of .247.
He hit 35 HR in 2006. Figure going to a hitter's park from Oakland he would be more likely to approach the higher number than the lower one he's capable of.

He's also 30 pts down in OBP from 2007, and that's far more problematic for me than his batting average. I want him seeing pitches, hitting for power, and getting on base. Sadly he's only doing the first of those with consistency.

That said, it was still a good trade at the time knowing what the Sox knew then. Maybe right now we wouldn't make it, if we knew TCQ would have an MVP caliber season and JD would play nearly at 2006 level again. But at the time we had an OF of Dye coming off of injury, Jerry Owens, Carlos Quentin, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson, so there were a ton of question marks in the OF.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 10:54 AM
Yes, it's KW's fault that Swisher has underperformed what he could have been reasonably expected to do this year. :rolleyes:

Our team needed someone who could work counts and get on base at a solid clip beyond Thome. Swisher brought that, along with 30-35 HR power considering how he hit in the pitcher's paradise of Oakland. Sadly Swisher has been having a rough year. Also, if he held onto Gio, DLS, and Sweeney, how much value would they have lost this year with DLS having surgery, Gio underperforming, and Sweeney still languishing in the minors.

KW traded pieces at their max value for a cost-controlled player who seemed to fill some very pressing needs for the franchise. The fact that your ****-on-everything attitude happened to be somewhat correct for this trade doesn't make you a good evaluator of talent, it just means you stumbled on a nut.

Swisher hit over 30 homers once in his career, and it wasn't even last year. Some of the predictions here (nay, most) were completely unreasonable. Unless you said .250 hitter with 20 homers, you had your head in the clouds. Because that's the kind of hitter this guy is. On most teams, a part time player.

You should probably reevaluate your stance on Gio. Right now, he's probably got more value than all but a handful of minor league pitchers. He'd easily net a starter.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 10:56 AM
That said, it was still a good trade at the time knowing what the Sox knew then. Maybe right now we wouldn't make it, if we knew TCQ would have an MVP caliber season and JD would play nearly at 2006 level again. But at the time we had an OF of Dye coming off of injury, Jerry Owens, Carlos Quentin, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson, so there were a ton of question marks in the OF.

I don't deny their were questions, but he overpaid for mediocrity. He paid a kings ransom. You'd have thought he was trading for Manny Ramirez.

spiffie
08-04-2008, 10:58 AM
Swisher hit over 30 homers once in his career, and it wasn't even last year. Some of the predictions here (nay, most) were completely unreasonable. Unless you said .250 hitter with 20 homers, you had your head in the clouds. Because that's the kind of hitter this guy is. On most teams, a part time player.

You should probably reevaluate your stance on Gio. Right now, he's probably got more value than all but a handful of minor league pitchers. He'd easily net a starter.
Yes, that 4.24 ERA and 1.36 WHIP is surely going to blow people away.

He hit 21, 35, and 22 in Oakland with 32, 24, and 36 doubles. I think to assume coming to a hitter's park like USCF a few of those doubles would clear the fence, and a few long fly outs would be getting over seems very reasonable. His OBP over the last 2 seasons was around .375. So yeah, a 30 HR guy with a 375ish OBP would probably be more than a part time player. Oh yeah, and he's cost controlled into the next decade. There sure are a lot of guys like that going cheaply on the trade market.

But keep fixating on that batting average. Next tell us how Livan Hernandez was having a good year because he had double digit wins.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 11:08 AM
Yes, that 4.24 ERA and 1.36 WHIP is surely going to blow people away.


Remove his first ten starts. Because that's what scouts are looking at. He's ready for the big leagues.

He hit 21, 35, and 22 in Oakland with 32, 24, and 36 doubles. I think to assume coming to a hitter's park like USCF a few of those doubles would clear the fence, and a few long fly outs would be getting over seems very reasonable. His OBP over the last 2 seasons was around .375. So yeah, a 30 HR guy with a 375ish OBP would probably be more than a part time player. Oh yeah, and he's cost controlled into the next decade. There sure are a lot of guys like that going cheaply on the trade market.

But keep fixating on that batting average. Next tell us how Livan Hernandez was having a good year because he had double digit wins.

Your biggest mistake is giving the guy credit for something he hasn't done. Look where it's gotten you.

Unless you're a 45 homer a year masher or a leadoff hitter with blazing speed, an OBP that high compared to a really low batting average is troublesome. As I've said numerous times before, Swish walks a ton because he's a lefty. He routinely gets completely pitched around in late and key situations, and to the pitcher's advantage. It makes his numbers appear a lot better than they really are. He really isn't an everyday player on most ballclubs, unless he's in a super utility role.

spiffie
08-04-2008, 11:17 AM
Remove his first ten starts. Because that's what scouts are looking at. He's ready for the big leagues.


Your biggest mistake is giving the guy credit for something he hasn't done. Look where it's gotten you.

Unless you're a 45 homer a year masher or a leadoff hitter with blazing speed, an OBP that high compared to a really low batting average is troublesome. As I've said numerous times before, Swish walks a ton because he's a lefty. He routinely gets completely pitched around in late and key situations, and to the pitcher's advantage. It makes his numbers appear a lot better than they really are. He really isn't an everyday player on most ballclubs, unless he's in a super utility role.
The fact that you are relegating a guy who HAS HIT 35 HR, and is likely capable of doing it multiple times, with a 375-385 OBP to a utility role pretty much says everything that needs to be said, and effectively ends the discussion. Keep on sitting there secure in the knowledge you could fix this if only you could get a chance to show those idiots Williams and Guillen how a real baseball mind handles things. :rolleyes:

munchman33
08-04-2008, 11:27 AM
The fact that you are relegating a guy who HAS HIT 35 HR, and is likely capable of doing it multiple times, with a 375-385 OBP to a utility role pretty much says everything that needs to be said, and effectively ends the discussion. Keep on sitting there secure in the knowledge you could fix this if only you could get a chance to show those idiots Williams and Guillen how a real baseball mind handles things. :rolleyes:

This is the key area that we disagree. You see Swisher as a power hitter. I see him as a guy with little power who had one good power year. Can't you now concede that he obviously isn't that kind of player? Can you honestly watch White Sox games and look at the giant hole in his swing (especially from the left side) and tell me this is a guy that will consistently hit 35+ bombs? :scratch:

thomas35forever
08-04-2008, 11:45 AM
:popcorn:

Harry Chappas
08-04-2008, 12:17 PM
That's bull****. Second guessing a GM after he makes a ridiculously bad trade that no one else in the business would be foolish enough to make (well, maybe Bill Bavasi) is every fans' right.

It isn't like I haven't been saying all along how horrible and amateur that deal was. It's completely crippled our season. And it completely outweighs the very good moves that Kenny has made. In the end, winning is all that matters. And if we don't win, it won't be because we didn't make the necessary move. It will be because we couldn't make the necessary move, because our GM made one of the worst trades in franchise history, trading our best three prospects for a mediocre ballplayer who couldn't hit that well and didn't play the position we needed him to well, instead of using those rescources on something that would help the team.

So trading 3 minor leaguers for Swisher "completely outweighs" signing Ramirez, Linebrink, Dotel, and trading for Quentin? Quentin and Ramirez could be perennial all-stars for godsakes! BTW - just because they were "our" three best prospects doesn't mean that they would be that coveted by opposing teams. You act as if we gave away sure-fire superstars and we could have asked for the world for them which is simply not the case.

As someone else pointed out, what block-buster trade was made for a pitcher at the deadline? Surely all of these other teams with deep farm systems would have used their glut of talent to land an ace or at least a solid middle reliever.

oeo
08-04-2008, 01:10 PM
Remove his first ten starts. Because that's what scouts are looking at. He's ready for the big leagues.

Could he come up? Possibly. Would he succeed? Probably not.

Gio wouldn't impact this team until probably 2009. And if he had a rough start, it would be 'why didn't we trade him when we could.'

Tragg
08-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Yes, it's KW's fault that Swisher has underperformed what he could have been reasonably expected to do this year. :rolleyes:

He is not that far off of his career averages- below them, yes, but not that much below.
3 of your top 5 prospects for a player of that category is not the norm. (although it could be argued that sweeney was no longer one of the top 5 as Guillen's keen eye for talent basically sent him packing).

I certainly don't think Gio and DLS would be helping this team this year.
Sweeney would be if allowed too play.

jabrch
08-04-2008, 02:10 PM
Give me a break. Kenny Williams is one of the best GM's in all of professional sports.

Do or Do not. There is no try. A general manager is not graded on trades alone. His free agent signings have been suspect and his drafting have been bad.


Welcome to the land of exaggeration!!!!!!! Population - MILLIONS

On both sides, KW is exaggerated. He's neither one of the best (unless you mean 15 best) nor are his deals/signings/draftings bad...

Adele_H
08-04-2008, 02:33 PM
Every other team in the league would love to have those guys as well...

1) On the general tip, I don't care about the other 29 teams in baseball and what they would love to have. It's quite simple: to win World Series, you have to do something that separates you from every other team, essentially.

2) More specifically, our lack of a speedy dynamo with batcontrol & on-base skills atop the order, really hurts the middle of the order guys as well as the guy like Cabrera is miscast, is out of his comfort zone. It hurts your pitcher too as less runs are scored in the early inning(s). And in postseason, it'd be nice to have our Josh Beckett or our John Smoltz, which pushes good-but-not-great starters like Buerhle, Vazquez and Danks back to slot more appropriate. Of course if Contreras is completely healthy, that helps. IF.

Would Toronto have considered Fields + Floyd + Richard [pre-Road trip]?

Domeshot17
08-04-2008, 02:35 PM
Welcome to the land of exaggeration!!!!!!! Population - MILLIONS

On both sides, KW is exaggerated. He's neither one of the best (unless you mean 15 best) nor are his deals/signings/draftings bad...


I'm just curious here, how in the hell can you say his drafts have not been bad. Ill give you signings and trades, at worst hes broken about even, but his drafts are AWFUL. He pissed a top 20 pick on an easy sign in Broadway, Poreda was another easy sign as he bypassed better talent. He is one of the worst drafting GMs around right now, and its clearly seen by how poor our minor league system is.

balke
08-04-2008, 02:50 PM
I'm just curious here, how in the hell can you say his drafts have not been bad. Ill give you signings and trades, at worst hes broken about even, but his drafts are AWFUL. He pissed a top 20 pick on an easy sign in Broadway, Poreda was another easy sign as he bypassed better talent. He is one of the worst drafting GMs around right now, and its clearly seen by how poor our minor league system is.

That is one theory. Those signs also point to piss poor development in the minors. Kenny seems to be able to judge talent (Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, Quentin). Either the scouts telling Kenny who is good coming out of high school and college is terrible, or they aren't properly being developed.

There was action taken pointing to bad scouting from someone responsible for it last offseason. I will be judging KW a lot more on Poreda and this year's draft picks, more so than of those in the past. They tried correcting this, let's see if it worked.

spiffie
08-04-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm just curious here, how in the hell can you say his drafts have not been bad. Ill give you signings and trades, at worst hes broken about even, but his drafts are AWFUL. He pissed a top 20 pick on an easy sign in Broadway, Poreda was another easy sign as he bypassed better talent. He is one of the worst drafting GMs around right now, and its clearly seen by how poor our minor league system is.
The players he has drafted have allowed us to acquire:
Freddy Garcia
Gavin Floyd
John Danks
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Carlos Quentin
Nick Swisher
Jim Thome
Javier Vazquez
Carl Everett

No, our team isn't loaded with young players drafted and groomed in the organization. But I would say if the result of the draft process has been to have these guys playing on our major league roster, that is pretty damn good.

Tragg
08-04-2008, 03:20 PM
9 players of note over 6 years.
comme ci
comme ca

Overall, he gave up less than he received. We haven't drafted enough good prospects for Williams to trade.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 03:24 PM
So trading 3 minor leaguers for Swisher "completely outweighs" signing Ramirez, Linebrink, Dotel, and trading for Quentin?

Baseball is still about winning right?

Then yes. Absolutely it completely outweighs the other acquisitions, if the move prevents us from winning the division. And if we don't win the division, that trade is a very large reason number one.

soxinem1
08-04-2008, 03:56 PM
Since he has been GM KW has always prefered taking a chance on squeezing a year or two out of a veteran rather than place the position in the hands of a rookie or journeyman. Last year was a partial exception because the team was out of it by June, and they really had no other choice but to let Owens, Buckvich, Terrero, and the others play to run out the schedule.

I've taken my share of shots at him for not being able to assemble any type of productive minor league system, but to send off a few of the decent prospects you have for two obvious injury risks like Street and Ducheshere would have been careless.

To attack KW for getting Swisher is pure hind-sight. Plus, the season is still in progress. If he finishes up with 18 HR's and 59 RBI's, then you can complain.

Plus, one fact no one has brought up is that the trade deadline does go to the end of August, so while it would be more difficult, who says he cannot still pull the trigger on something?

2906
08-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Baseball is still about winning right?

Then yes. Absolutely it completely outweighs the other acquisitions, if the move prevents us from winning the division. And if we don't win the division, that trade is a very large reason number one.

I've read through the thread and want to make sure I understand your position.

So you're saying they shouldn't have given up Gio Gonzalez, De Los Santos, and Ryan Sweeney for Swisher because either:

a). those players would've contributed more to the 2008 White Sox than Swisher

b). those three players or a combination thereof could and should have been used to acquire something else.

Is that correct?

munchman33
08-04-2008, 04:11 PM
I've read through the thread and want to make sure I understand your position.

So you're saying they shouldn't have given up Gio Gonzalez, De Los Santos, and Ryan Sweeney for Swisher because either:

a). those players would've contributed more to the 2008 White Sox than Swisher

b). those three players or a combination thereof could and should have been used to acquire something else.

Is that correct?

Yes to b, and

c). swisher was not necessary, nor was he worth the price

Maybe we acquire someone else for center. Maybe BA plays. But it certainly shouldn't have been Swisher.

Jim Shorts
08-04-2008, 04:30 PM
To attack KW for getting Swisher is pure hind-sight. Plus, the season is still in progress. If he finishes up with 18 HR's and 59 RBI's, then you can complain.


I was under the impression they got Nickie the Swish for his clubhouse presence, his ability to boost team morale and his ability to play several different positions; not necessarily for his bat.

Coulda swore I heard both Kenny and Ozzie say this at the beginning of the year.

2906
08-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Yes to b, and

c). swisher was not necessary, nor was he worth the price

Maybe we acquire someone else for center. Maybe BA plays. But it certainly shouldn't have been Swisher.

Ok. I was hoping you weren't hanging your hat on option A.

As for option B. I think they sold a bit low on Sweeney and I think he had clearly fallen out of favor, just as Richar did this year. Sweeney has been reasonably productive in Oakland but he too is not a CF. He is a corner OF with little power, thus far anyway. Certainly not a cornerstone piece. I was not heartbroken giving him up.

The other two pitchers had, and have, durability concerns. De Los Santos had a cranky elbow last year and I think the White Sox knew something. As for Gonzalez, in my opinion you are overstating his value.

If I read the thread right you stated he could have netted a major league starting pitcher. I don't know of any team that would have given up a productive major league starting pitcher, anything better than a replaceable #5 guy, for Gio Gonzalez. Certainly not better than the 5 guys the White Sox started the season with. Of course this is just conjecture, as is your stance regarding his value.

Swisher ... right or wrong they wanted on base guys. I agree he is not a long term solution in CF and my frustration is the White Sox have not (can not?) developed a CF. There should be a pipeline. Heck, they haven't even drafted a CF up high since Brian. In my opinion that's the fault of everyone from the top down.

As for Swisher himself, he was as much penciled in at LF as center. Then Owens got hurt and Quentin came out of the gate gangbusters after sitting out the first two games. Swisher is having a down year. I agree that the expectations shouldn't be that high. I would think 25 HR's, a .250 to .260 average, high OBP and the energy level intangibles (which they needed). Very frankly, his cost certainty is another factor. We may not like that part of the equation, but it's reality.

So now they have him and they need to find a place for him to play, or trade him. I think we will see him as a super sub guy in 2009, unless they are able to move Konerko which I doubt. Nor do I think they gave up too much to get him, I see it as a good trade for both teams with a longer time frame necessary to deem final judgement.

soxinem1
08-04-2008, 04:35 PM
I was under the impression they got Nickie the Swish for his clubhouse presence, his ability to boost team morale and his ability to play several different positions; not necessarily for his bat.

Coulda swore I heard both Kenny and Ozzie say this at the beginning of the year.


They did, but something about his high OBP and power potential at both sides of the plate were mentioned pretty often too.:smile:

Jim Shorts
08-04-2008, 04:41 PM
They did, but something about his high OBP and power potential at both sides of the plate were mentioned pretty often too.:smile:

Why do you have to bring ALL the facts to my point? Jeez.:cool:

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:00 PM
I was under the impression they got Nickie the Swish for his clubhouse presence, his ability to boost team morale and his ability to play several different positions; not necessarily for his bat.

Coulda swore I heard both Kenny and Ozzie say this at the beginning of the year.

Ok. I was hoping you weren't hanging your hat on option A.

As for option B. I think they sold a bit low on Sweeney and I think he had clearly fallen out of favor, just as Richar did this year. Sweeney has been reasonably productive in Oakland but he too is not a CF. He is a corner OF with little power, thus far anyway. Certainly not a cornerstone piece. I was not heartbroken giving him up.

The other two pitchers had, and have, durability concerns. De Los Santos had a cranky elbow last year and I think the White Sox knew something. As for Gonzalez, in my opinion you are overstating his value.

If I read the thread right you stated he could have netted a major league starting pitcher. I don't know of any team that would have given up a productive major league starting pitcher, anything better than a replaceable #5 guy, for Gio Gonzalez. Certainly not better than the 5 guys the White Sox started the season with. Of course this is just conjecture, as is your stance regarding his value.

Swisher ... right or wrong they wanted on base guys. I agree he is not a long term solution in CF and my frustration is the White Sox have not (can not?) developed a CF. There should be a pipeline. Heck, they haven't even drafted a CF up high since Brian. In my opinion that's the fault of everyone from the top down.

As for Swisher himself, he was as much penciled in at LF as center. Then Owens got hurt and Quentin came out of the gate gangbusters after sitting out the first two games. Swisher is having a down year. I agree that the expectations shouldn't be that high. I would think 25 HR's, a .250 to .260 average, high OBP and the energy level intangibles (which they needed). Very frankly, his cost certainty is another factor. We may not like that part of the equation, but it's reality.

So now they have him and they need to find a place for him to play, or trade him. I think we will see him as a super sub guy in 2009, unless they are able to move Konerko which I doubt. Nor do I think they gave up too much to get him, I see it as a good trade for both teams with a longer time frame necessary to deem final judgement.


This isn't hindsight guys. I've been saying these things about the deal since day one.

I didn't pencil Swisher in at LF. I knew Quentin would win the job. People mocked me for saying Swisher wasn't even half the player Quentin was.

Gio has tons of value now. He's probably the most ready minor league pitcher in baseball right now. He's been pretty untouchable the last few months. Word is Oakland is calling him up sometime next week.

Just because Kenny knows something about a guys elbow doesn't mean others do. Kind of hard to scout over the offseason. DLS had prime value. So did Gio. Either one could have netted a Swisher type player alone. Kenny just let himself get infatuated with an idea, and spent everything he had.

2906
08-04-2008, 06:22 PM
This isn't hindsight guys. I've been saying these things about the deal since day one.

I didn't pencil Swisher in at LF. I knew Quentin would win the job. People mocked me for saying Swisher wasn't even half the player Quentin was.

Gio has tons of value now. He's probably the most ready minor league pitcher in baseball right now. He's been pretty untouchable the last few months. Word is Oakland is calling him up sometime next week.

Just because Kenny knows something about a guys elbow doesn't mean others do. Kind of hard to scout over the offseason. DLS had prime value. So did Gio. Either one could have netted a Swisher type player alone. Kenny just let himself get infatuated with an idea, and spent everything he had.

You state your case as if it's fact.

Remember, you're just speculating like the rest of us. You have no idea whether Swisher could have been netted by one or the other and not both. Swisher had far more trade value than any of the three. Why? Because he is a proven major leaguer. None of the others were. Swisher's favorable contract (which I hate bringing up by the way) added to his value.

Kenny was on at least Plan B at the time. He wanted Hunter as you recall. I'm not so sure "infatuated" is the right word, but if you think so that's fine by me. I believe he targets players and gets very aggressive about it, which is borne out by what the Arizona GM said about KW's pursuit of Quentin.

Lastly, whether Gonzalez is close to untouchable, i.e. doing well right now doesn't matter, because the trade was last winter. The discussion is how much value he had when the deal was made.

Also, Swisher was penciled in at LF because they weren't sure how Quentin's shoulder would respond. Thankfully, he rehabbed it quickly and was effective from the get go.

I guess where we part ways is I like acquiring proven major league players. I hated the Ron Schueler era with its promises of all these great prospects coming and for the most part, they never did. They were never traded at their highest value and guess what, the White Sox weren't in contention for 5 years.

Adele_H
08-04-2008, 06:26 PM
Ok. I was hoping you weren't hanging your hat on option A.

As for option B. I think they sold a bit low on Sweeney and I think he had clearly fallen out of favor, just as Richar did this year. Sweeney has been reasonably productive in Oakland but he too is not a CF. He is a corner OF with little power, thus far anyway. Certainly not a cornerstone piece. I was not heartbroken giving him up.

The other two pitchers had, and have, durability concerns. De Los Santos had a cranky elbow last year and I think the White Sox knew something. As for Gonzalez, in my opinion you are overstating his value.

If I read the thread right you stated he could have netted a major league starting pitcher. I don't know of any team that would have given up a productive major league starting pitcher, anything better than a replaceable #5 guy, for Gio Gonzalez. Certainly not better than the 5 guys the White Sox started the season with. Of course this is just conjecture, as is your stance regarding his value.

Swisher ... right or wrong they wanted on base guys. I agree he is not a long term solution in CF and my frustration is the White Sox have not (can not?) developed a CF. There should be a pipeline. Heck, they haven't even drafted a CF up high since Brian. In my opinion that's the fault of everyone from the top down.

As for Swisher himself, he was as much penciled in at LF as center. Then Owens got hurt and Quentin came out of the gate gangbusters after sitting out the first two games. Swisher is having a down year. I agree that the expectations shouldn't be that high. I would think 25 HR's, a .250 to .260 average, high OBP and the energy level intangibles (which they needed). Very frankly, his cost certainty is another factor. We may not like that part of the equation, but it's reality.

So now they have him and they need to find a place for him to play, or trade him. I think we will see him as a super sub guy in 2009, unless they are able to move Konerko which I doubt. Nor do I think they gave up too much to get him, I see it as a good trade for both teams with a longer time frame necessary to deem final judgement.


It all depends....


If Swisher was not a juicer, regains his power soon.... while Sweeney regresses and Carrangi amounts to nothing more than a long man in the pen...... Then Kenny Williams clearly got the best of Billy Beane.

If Swisher was a juicer, doesn'r return to form.... while Sweeney continues to hit around .300, walks a little more; Gio doesn't break down, and DLS comes back fully....... Then Beane clearly got the best of K-Dub.


Time will tell.

2906
08-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Just because Kenny knows something about a guys elbow doesn't mean others do. Kind of hard to scout over the offseason. DLS had prime value.

Medical reports? They are standard procedure with trades. All they needed to do was check the minor league logs to know De Los Santos was dealing with some elbow tweaks. I believe he had a little less value than you suggest.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:30 PM
You state your case as if it's fact.

Remember, you're just speculating like the rest of us. You have no idea whether Swisher could have been netted by one or the other and not both. Swisher had far more trade value than any of the three. Why? Because he is a proven major leaguer.

Sorry. I stopped reading your post after this line, because it's so incredibly incorrect in today's climate that whatever you said after that wouldn't make any sense to anyone who understands what baseball is about today.

Today, prospects are at a premium. Especially pitching prospects. The only way you trade high end pitching prospects for a guy with a non-rookie contract is if he's a superstar. If you can't accept that as the truth (and it is), then we have nothing to discuss.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:31 PM
Medical reports? They are standard procedure with trades. All they needed to do was check the minor league logs to know De Los Santos was dealing with some elbow tweaks. I believe he had a little less value than you suggest.

If there was a report of elbow damage sent to Oakland, you better believe the Chicago media would have been all over that.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:32 PM
It all depends....


If Swisher was not a juicer, regains his power soon.... while Sweeney regresses and Carrangi amounts to nothing more than a long man in the pen...... Then Kenny Williams clearly got the best of Billy Beane.

If Swisher was a juicer, doesn'r return to form.... while Sweeney continues to hit around .300, walks a little more; Gio doesn't break down, and DLS comes back fully....... Then Beane clearly got the best of K-Dub.


Time will tell.

It's incredibly unfair to assume he was a juicer because he's not having a season like the ONE power season he had.

2906
08-04-2008, 06:41 PM
Sorry. I stopped reading your post after this line, because it's so incredibly incorrect in today's climate that whatever you said after that wouldn't make any sense to anyone who understands what baseball is about today.

Today, prospects are at a premium. Especially pitching prospects. The only way you trade high end pitching prospects for a guy with a non-rookie contract is if he's a superstar. If you can't accept that as the truth (and it is), then we have nothing to discuss.

Forget it. Now I see what you're all about and why others seem to take issue with you. You like to think you're always right. Memo to you ... you aren't.

The old "anyone who understands baseball" schtick when you're getting your ass handed to you in a debate. :rolleyes:

2906
08-04-2008, 06:42 PM
If there was a report of elbow damage sent to Oakland, you better believe the Chicago media would have been all over that.

You missed the reports of it last summer. But you're always right, so hey.

Adele_H
08-04-2008, 06:44 PM
It's incredibly unfair to assume he was a juicer because he's not having a season like the ONE power season he had.

A) Nobody is "assuming" anything definitively here.

B) Fair has nothing to do with it. Baseball, especially the Bay Area teams, have brought it upon themselves in the last 15 years. Healthy skepticism is not a bad thing.

C) If Swisher can't slug like a corner OF (which is what he is) and, as such, fails to provide real line-up protection for Konerko or Alexei.... while multiple younger, cheaper players he was traded for do reasonably well right away.... It would be reasonable to consider such trade a loss.

Again, only time will tell. What's so hard to understand about that?

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:46 PM
Forget it. Now I see what you're all about and why others seem to take issue with you. You like to think you're always right. Memo to you ... you aren't.

The old "anyone who understands baseball" schtick when you're getting your ass handed to you in a debate. :rolleyes:

How many other deals including young starters that translated to the top of rotations (and whatever you say, the book on these guys was written and they were a future 1 and 2) for a non-superstar can you name?

I remember the last one. It involved Victor Zambrano and Scott Kazmir. And Steve Phillips lost his job because of it. Trades like that don't happen in today's market. Did it used to? Yeah. But times are different. And it doesn't happen, because it isn't good business.

If I'm acting like an ass it's because you're arguing against something that is obvious to anyone but a Kenny apologist. And I have no patience for people like that.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:47 PM
You missed the reports of it last summer. But you're always right, so hey.

Link?

I was all over this trade. No one mentioned it to me when I complained about the deal. Seems like something they obviously would have used.

2906
08-04-2008, 06:49 PM
How many other deals including young starters that translated to the top of rotations (and whatever you say, the book on these guys was written and they were a future 1 and 2) for a non-superstar can you name?

I remember the last one. It involved Victor Zambrano and Scott Kazmir. And Steve Phillips lost his job because of it. Trades like that don't happen in today's market. Did it used to? Yeah. But times are different. And it doesn't happen, because it isn't good business.

If I'm acting like an ass it's because you're arguing against something that is obvious to anyone but a Kenny apologist. And I have no patience for people like that.

First off, I could give a flying **** if you think I'm a KW apologist, nor do I give a flying **** what you do or don't have patience for.

When you post your schtick on a message board and state your case as if it's fact (and it ain't), be prepared to back it up, and not stick your nose up in the air and say your "anyone who knows baseball" BS.

Gio Gonzalez isn't Scott Kazmir either. I think you're a Gio Gonzalez fanboy. Go check his recent log. He got stomped on July 27th and he got stomped in one other start in June. Also as I recall he had an ineffective relief outing as well. You sound like he's a Hall of Famer. Oh wait ... aren't you the guy who was saying De Los Santos had a better than 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer? LOL.

2906
08-04-2008, 06:52 PM
Link?

I was all over this trade. No one mentioned it to me when I complained about the deal. Seems like something they obviously would have used.

I read it in the Sun Times and there were people very close to the minor league teams who posted it on another board. Believe what you want, but it's true. He had minor elbow problems last year, they turned into major elbow problems this year.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 06:54 PM
First off, I could give a flying **** if you think I'm a KW apologist, nor do I give a flying **** what you do or don't have patience for.

When you post your schtick on a message board and state your case as if it's fact (and it ain't), be prepared to back it up, and not stick your nose up in the air and say your "anyone who knows baseball" BS.

Gio Gonzalez isn't Scott Kazmir either. I think you're a Gio Gonzalez fanboy. Go check his recent log. He got stomped on July 27th and he got stomped in one other start in June. Also as I recall he had an ineffective relief outing as well. You sound like he's a Hall of Famer. Oh wait ... aren't you the guy who was saying De Los Santos had a better than 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer? LOL.

Anyone who knows baseball knows the value of high end pitching prospects. And that they're king. I don't know how else to say it. It isn't a revolutionary concept or something that hasn't been said before. It isn't something that hasn't been said by the Ken Rosenthals and Peter Gammons' and such. It an established truth. And if you want to deny that the current market is that way, we really don't have anything to talk about, because it isn't a discussion. It's the truth that every baseball insider, expert, and member of an organization knows is a golden rule versus what you want to be the truth.

Adele_H
08-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Medical reports? They are standard procedure with trades. All they needed to do was check the minor league logs to know De Los Santos was dealing with some elbow tweaks. I believe he had a little less value than you suggest.

Not only that but didn't Gio experience some "shoulder issues" at one point, too?

I may be wrong on this one, but I firmly believe Kenny knew something about DLS and Gio (and MaCarthy) that didn't exactly thrill him in terms of their long-term prognosis.

(Otherwise, it just doesn't make great sense to do the Swisher deal. Remember, when he pulled the trigger in the off-season Kenny had no way of knowing that Danks AND Floyd would pretty much make Gio and DLS expendable. As munchman33 correctly pointed out, these days you just don't do that kind of a deal, especially if you're a team like the Sox)

russ99
08-04-2008, 07:45 PM
Whew, there's some real harsh comments here about the guy who will probably win Executive of the year.

I think you guys are nitpicking. He's brought in Quentin (an unbelievable coup) Ramirez, Cabrera, Linebrink and Dotel along with Swisher - not to mention the emergence of Danks and Floyd - and to me that looks like an amazing job, at least so far.

Also, I'm of a mind that the Swisher deal will pay off 1-2 years down the road a lot more than it is now. He's signed to a below-market value contract and while his average is down, I'd expect his overall hitting to improve, especially if he's moved to 1B or LF, with Dye or Konerko moving to DH.

So let's examine this deal a year from now before determining if it was a bad one or not. We'll also have an idea about what we gave up. I don't care how touted a minor league pitcher is, he has to prove himself once he gets to the bigs.

I also have no doubt that if the Sox pitching continues to falter, Kenny will bring someone in before the waiver deadline on August 30th.

2906
08-04-2008, 07:50 PM
Anyone who knows baseball knows the value of high end pitching prospects. And that they're king. I don't know how else to say it. It isn't a revolutionary concept or something that hasn't been said before. It isn't something that hasn't been said by the Ken Rosenthals and Peter Gammons' and such. It an established truth. And if you want to deny that the current market is that way, we really don't have anything to talk about, because it isn't a discussion. It's the truth that every baseball insider, expert, and member of an organization knows is a golden rule versus what you want to be the truth.

Maybe I have to type slower because you're not getting it.

I completely understand about the value of high end pitching prospects. What I keep indicating is Gio Gonzalez nor De Los Santos are not the high end pitching prospects you make them out to be. You are the guy who said De Los Santos has a better than 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer. If I'm wrong and thinking of someone else, correct me. If you did say that ... that's total fanboy nonsense. He is a pitching prospect who last year had minor elbow problems and now they are major elbow problems.

Gio Gonzalez ... here is a young man with durability concerns. I recall the same thing Adele recalls ... some minor shoulder issues and there have constantly been questions about his small size (5'11 and 180 pounds or so) holding up as a starting pitcher.

Gio Gonzalez is also a guy who has consistently needed to work on command and control. This year, he's walked one guy every two innings, 61 in 123 innings. That's 4.5 per game, that's a lot. And he did it in one of his most recent starts, but you said he's been untouchable recently. He hasn't.

Prospects are hot currency depending upon the team and the timing and the situation. Not all teams are all hot to collect prospects. Look around. There are certain teams who want to collect established players, players who are sure major leaguers. Just like Swisher. I could name 10 teams easily who are more interested in acquiring established players, be they position players or pitchers, vs. prospects. Why is that? Because they are trying to win now. Simple concept.

The trade market is not black and white, despite your attempts to paint it that way by referencing Rosenthal and Gammons. There is no hard and fast rule and there is no hard and fast truth. It's very fluid and I suspect it will always be that way.

And you're right, until you quit believing you're always right, there is no discussion to be had.

Aren't you the one who said De Los Santos had more than a 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer?

munchman33
08-04-2008, 07:52 PM
Whew, there's some real harsh comments here about the guy who will probably win Executive of the year.

I think you guys are nitpicking. He's brought in Quentin (an unbelievable coup) Ramirez, Cabrera, Linebrink and Dotel along with Swisher - not to mention the emergence of Danks and Floyd - and to me that looks like an amazing job, at least so far.

Also, I'm of a mind that the Swisher deal will pay off 1-2 years down the road a lot more than it is now. He's signed to a below-market value contract and while his average is down, I'd expect his overall hitting to improve, especially if he's moved to 1B or LF, with Dye or Konerko moving to DH.

So let's examine this deal a year from now before determining if it was a bad one or not. We'll also have an idea about what we gave up. I don't care how touted a minor league pitcher is, he has to prove himself once he gets to the bigs.

I also have no doubt that if the Sox pitching continues to falter, Kenny will bring someone in before the waiver deadline on August 30th.

While I don't disagree that Kenny's made a number of good moves this offseason, I strongly disagree that we can't look at the Swisher trade. He's in his fourth year and has never been anything remotely special. You say his contract is below value. For what? He's either a CF that can't cover ground or he's a 1B/LF who can't hit a lick. It's time to let go of the one decent year he's had and recognize the man for what he is. A bench guy.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 07:55 PM
Maybe I have to type slower because you're not getting it.

I completely understand about the value of high end pitching prospects. What I keep indicating is Gio Gonzalez nor De Los Santos are not the high end pitching prospects you make them out to be. You are the guy who said De Los Santos has a better than 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer. If I'm wrong and thinking of someone else, correct me. If you did say that ... that's total fanboy nonsense. He is a pitching prospect who last year had minor elbow problems and now they are major elbow problems.

Gio Gonzalez ... here is a young man with durability concerns. I recall the same thing Adele recalls ... some minor shoulder issues and there have constantly been questions about his small size (5'11 and 180 pounds or so) holding up as a starting pitcher.

Gio Gonzalez is also a guy who has consistently needed to work on command and control. This year, he's walked one guy every two innings, 61 in 123 innings. That's 4.5 per game, that's a lot. And he did it in one of his most recent starts, but you said he's been untouchable recently. He hasn't.

Prospects are hot currency depending upon the team and the timing and the situation. Not all teams are all hot to collect prospects. Look around. There are certain teams who want to collect established players, players who are sure major leaguers. Just like Swisher. I could name 10 teams easily who are more interested in acquiring established players, be they position players or pitchers, vs. prospects. Why is that? Because they are trying to win now. Simple concept.

The trade market is not black and white, despite your attempts to paint it that way by referencing Rosenthal and Gammons. There is no hard and fast rule and there is no hard and fast truth. It's very fluid and I suspect it will always be that way.

And you're right, until you quit believing you're always right, there is no discussion to be had.

Aren't you the one who said De Los Santos had more than a 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer?


Fine. I asked you before to give me an example of pitching prospects that were projected as front end of rotation guys being traded for someone who isn't a superstar since the Victor Zambrano deal. You don't even have to give me a deal that included two such guys, like this one did. If you can find one, I'll concede.

2906
08-04-2008, 08:03 PM
While I don't disagree that Kenny's made a number of good moves this offseason, I strongly disagree that we can't look at the Swisher trade. He's in his fourth year and has never been anything remotely special. You say his contract is below value. For what? He's either a CF that can't cover ground or he's a 1B/LF who can't hit a lick. It's time to let go of the one decent year he's had and recognize the man for what he is. A bench guy.

First full year: 131 Games, 362 AB's, 21 HR's, 74 RBI, .322 OBP, .236 average

2nd full year: 157 games, 556 AB's, 35 HR's, 95 RBI, .374 OBP, .254 average

3rd full year: 150 games, 539 AB's, 22 HR's, 78 RBI, .381 OBP, .262 average.

Let's analyze. Average improves every year up to this year. On base % increases every year up to this year.

Can't hit a lick?

2906
08-04-2008, 08:06 PM
Fine. I asked you before to give me an example of pitching prospects that were projected as front end of rotation guys being traded for someone who isn't a superstar since the Victor Zambrano deal. You don't even have to give me a deal that included two such guys, like this one did. If you can find one, I'll concede.

Who says either Gonzalez or De Los Santos are projected as front of the rotation guys? You? Or is it Rosenthal or Gammons? You are highly overrating these pitching prospects, but you appear to have it set in your mind that they both project that way. Yeah right. Two guys with durability concerns, one of whom just underwent Tommy John.

I asked you if you were the guy who said De Los Santos was a 50% shot to be a Hall of Famer, or was it more than 50%? Still waiting.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 08:06 PM
First full year: 131 Games, 362 AB's, 21 HR's, 74 RBI, .322 OBP, .236 average

2nd full year: 157 games, 556 AB's, 35 HR's, 95 RBI, .374 OBP, .254 average

3rd full year: 150 games, 539 AB's, 22 HR's, 78 RBI, .381 OBP, .262 average.

Let's analyze. Average improves every year up to this year. On base % increases every year up to this year.

Can't hit a lick?

for a 1b/LF...yeah.

IronFisk
08-04-2008, 08:07 PM
Don't scream at me if this was already posted (i only have so many minutes to read this) but as time goes on, that Garland trade is really beginning to screw us - far more than the Rowand deal.

2906
08-04-2008, 08:12 PM
for a 1b/LF...yeah.

You said he can't hit a lick.

Wrong again.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 08:24 PM
He's either a CF that can't cover ground or he's a 1B/LF who can't hit a lick.

You said he can't hit a lick.

Wrong again.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/either

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2008, 08:44 PM
He's either a CF that can't cover ground or he's a 1B/LF who can't hit a lick. It's time to let go of the one decent year he's had and recognize the man for what he is. A bench guy.

I think he's better than a bench guy, but I think the Sox would be a better team overall if Swisher could be a super-sub.

If in 2009 both Thome and Griffey are gone (obviously not certain especially in Thome's case), the Sox will not have a full-time DH. In that scenario, I would like to see the Sox use Swisher as a super-sub, allowing the DH to be rotated among Quentin (LF), Dye (RF) and Paulie (1B). Obviously what would help this scenario would be if either BA comes out and wins the CF job in spring training and then hits ~.260+ with a ~.770+ OPS (35+ doubles, 15+ HR), or the Sox sign or trade for a legitimate CF who can field, run and hit well (IMHO Swisher is not this guy). Now you've got the ability to have a set batting order while giving each and every player a regular break from the field.

Lineup 1 has Quentin LF, Dye RF, Paulie 1B, Swisher DH
Lineup 2 has Quentin LF, Dye RF, Paulie DH, Swisher 1B
Lineup 3 has Quentin LF, Dye DH, Paulie 1B, Swisher RF
Lineup 4 has Quentin DH, Dye RF, Paulie 1B, Swisher LF

munchman33
08-04-2008, 09:39 PM
I think he's better than a bench guy, but I think the Sox would be a better team overall if Swisher could be a super-sub.

If in 2009 both Thome and Griffey are gone (obviously not certain especially in Thome's case), the Sox will not have a full-time DH. In that scenario, I would like to see the Sox use Swisher as a super-sub, allowing the DH to be rotated among Quentin (LF), Dye (RF) and Paulie (1B). Obviously what would help this scenario would be if either BA comes out and wins the CF job in spring training and then hits ~.260+ with a ~.770+ OPS (35+ doubles, 15+ HR), or the Sox sign or trade for a legitimate CF who can field, run and hit well (IMHO Swisher is not this guy). Now you've got the ability to have a set batting order while giving each and every player a regular break from the field.

Lineup 1 has Quentin LF, Dye RF, Paulie 1B, Swisher DH
Lineup 2 has Quentin LF, Dye RF, Paulie DH, Swisher 1B
Lineup 3 has Quentin LF, Dye DH, Paulie 1B, Swisher RF
Lineup 4 has Quentin DH, Dye RF, Paulie 1B, Swisher LF

That's a good idea, provided Paulie rebounds and we don't use Swisher in center unless it's an emergency.

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2008, 10:02 PM
That's a good idea, provided Paulie rebounds and we don't use Swisher in center unless it's an emergency.

The one problem with my scenario is that other than Swisher, there's no source of left-handed power on the team. AJ is not a power hitter. And you're right, it's success is contingent upon:

1. Paulie rebounding to an ~.850 OPS hitter; AND

2. BA fulfilling his potential as a hitter or the Sox signing or trading for a CF who can hit, run and field well.

The one benefit is that if Thome leaves, you've got the resources to re-sign Crede and also sign Orlando Hudson for 2B. Also, with the departure of Cabrera, you could put the savings into the bullpen. Here's your lineup:

SS Alexei
2B Hudson
LF/DH Quentin
RF/DH Dye
1B/DH Paulie
DH/1B/LF/RF Swisher
C AJ
3B Crede
CF BA

It's Dankerific
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
You guys are insane if you ever think that BA will be given CF or even given the opportunity to "win" that job.


The one problem with my scenario is that other than Swisher, there's no source of left-handed power on the team. AJ is not a power hitter. And you're right, it's success is contingent upon:

1. Paulie rebounding to an ~.850 OPS hitter; AND

2. BA fulfilling his potential as a hitter or the Sox signing or trading for a CF who can hit, run and field well.

The one benefit is that if Thome leaves, you've got the resources to re-sign Crede and also sign Orlando Hudson for 2B. Also, with the departure of Cabrera, you could put the savings into the bullpen. Here's your lineup:

SS Alexei
2B Hudson
LF/DH Quentin
RF/DH Dye
1B/DH Paulie
DH/1B/LF/RF Swisher
C AJ
3B Crede
CF BA

Optipessimism
08-04-2008, 10:13 PM
Fine. I asked you before to give me an example of pitching prospects that were projected as front end of rotation guys being traded for someone who isn't a superstar since the Victor Zambrano deal. You don't even have to give me a deal that included two such guys, like this one did. If you can find one, I'll concede.
We have two of those guys on our team. Danks was traded for McCarthy who wasn't a superstar and didn't have superstar potential with his frame, delivery, and arrow-straight 88-92mph FB. Floyd and Gio both came here for an injured Freddy Garcia.

This year Sean Gallagher was traded. He's a possible front-end guy, and it's not like Mr. Disabled List Rich Harden is/was a superstar. Players have to be healthy to become that.

I'm sure there are other examples. You mentioning Kazmir is a very rare exception to the rule. I'll agree that was a moronic move for the Mets both now and at the time, and Phillips was in hot water fast because of it. But, it's not like Gio was that kind of prospect. You seem to put Gio and DLS both into the Phil Hughes/Clayton Kershaw/David Price kind of realm of prospects. Gio just doesn't have that kind of stuff and as 2906 mentioned, there have always been durability concerns with him (even though Gio has so far proven his naysayers wrong). Gio is a very nice pitching prospect, but you can't put him up that high. DLS had the highest ceiling of the deal, and he was and still is a very good prospect with a very high ceiling, but he wasn't even close to being an untouchable type player. DLS was where Johnny Cueto was a couple years back, only better IMO.

At first I didn't like the Swisher deal either, mainly because I didn't like the idea of giving up our best pitching prospects without getting a pitcher in return, but also for the reason that I thought it would have been wiser to hang on to DLS for one more year to give him the chance to work himself into top-20 prospect range where he could fetch more. As it looks so far, the Sox did the right thing moving him, but they just didn't do it for the right player.

Optipessimism
08-04-2008, 10:18 PM
You guys are insane if you ever think that BA will be given CF or even given the opportunity to "win" that job.
If Ozzie comes down with a case of athlete's foot in Spring Training 2009 it will become a very real possibility.

russ99
08-04-2008, 10:39 PM
If Ozzie comes down with a case of athlete's foot in Spring Training 2009 it will become a very real possibility.

Ewwww....

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2008, 10:52 PM
You guys are insane if you ever think that BA will be given CF or even given the opportunity to "win" that job.

Swisher is not a bona-fide CF. He's a super-sub being forced to play CF. He's not as bad as Mackowiak, but he's probably in the bottom half defensively of all MLB CFs. There really aren't any respectable CFs who are pending free agents (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html):

Rocco Baldelli (27) - really promising but plagued by mitochondrial disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_disease)
Mike Cameron (36) - aging
Jim Edmonds (39) - fossilized
Mark Kotsay (33) - meh
Corey Patterson (29) - meh

So unless KW could swing a trade for a solid LF of the caliber of David DeJesus or Randy Winn (or better, like Alex Rios or Vernon Wells), you might as well go with BA in CF in 2009 and hope for the best.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 11:05 PM
We have two of those guys on our team. Danks was traded for McCarthy who wasn't a superstar and didn't have superstar potential with his frame, delivery, and arrow-straight 88-92mph FB. Floyd and Gio both came here for an injured Freddy Garcia.

This year Sean Gallagher was traded. He's a possible front-end guy, and it's not like Mr. Disabled List Rich Harden is/was a superstar. Players have to be healthy to become that.

I'm sure there are other examples. You mentioning Kazmir is a very rare exception to the rule. I'll agree that was a moronic move for the Mets both now and at the time, and Phillips was in hot water fast because of it. But, it's not like Gio was that kind of prospect. You seem to put Gio and DLS both into the Phil Hughes/Clayton Kershaw/David Price kind of realm of prospects. Gio just doesn't have that kind of stuff and as 2906 mentioned, there have always been durability concerns with him (even though Gio has so far proven his naysayers wrong). Gio is a very nice pitching prospect, but you can't put him up that high. DLS had the highest ceiling of the deal, and he was and still is a very good prospect with a very high ceiling, but he wasn't even close to being an untouchable type player. DLS was where Johnny Cueto was a couple years back, only better IMO.

At first I didn't like the Swisher deal either, mainly because I didn't like the idea of giving up our best pitching prospects without getting a pitcher in return, but also for the reason that I thought it would have been wiser to hang on to DLS for one more year to give him the chance to work himself into top-20 prospect range where he could fetch more. As it looks so far, the Sox did the right thing moving him, but they just didn't do it for the right player.

McCarthy - Danks was a wash as both guys were seen as future high end guys.

Freddy wasn't a star? Injured or not, he's still been an All-Star and won game four of a World Series.

Injury history or not, you aren't convincing anyone Rich Harden isn't a star. The guy's the best pitcher in baseball.

An injured DLS with a rookie contract is worth a lot more than Nick Swisher with the money he's owed. You couldn't give that "great contract" away.

Tragg
08-04-2008, 11:21 PM
you might as well go with BA in CF in 2009 and hope for the best.
That's not going to happen - guillen would play Wise first.
Williams needs to find a leadoff hitter for this team - badly.

Optipessimism
08-04-2008, 11:36 PM
McCarthy - Danks was a wash as both guys were seen as future high end guys.

Freddy wasn't a star? Injured or not, he's still been an All-Star and won game four of a World Series.

Injury history or not, you aren't convincing anyone Rich Harden isn't a star. The guy's the best pitcher in baseball.

An injured DLS with a rookie contract is worth a lot more than Nick Swisher with the money he's owed. You couldn't give that "great contract" away.
I think you're looking to argue at this point.

First you said "superstar." You talked about how trading elite pitching prospects (which DLS and Gio at the time were not) for players less than superstar quality was a bad move. There are very few superstar-level players in this game. None of the players I mentioned even come close to being superstar-caliber talent.

Now you're talking about "star" players instead. What is a "star" player? A solid everyday position player, SP, or closer? A guy that made the All-Star team? Because in that sense, Scott Podsednik is a star player. AJ is a star player. Hell, our whole team is full of star players. Freddy would have been a "star" player I guess, if you decide to overlook his poor 2006 campaign relative to other years of his career including the previous one, and if you could have completely ignored his disturbing loss of velocity then I guess you could have convinced yourself that Freddy was still a "star" at that point. But if Freddy over the '06-'07 offseason was a "star" than Swisher last year was certainly a star too, so by your own confusing logic you should be happy with that trade.

If you're talking about Rich Harden being a star player, I'm afraid you're going to be the one having to do the convincing, not me. I just said he wasn't a superstar, because he's not, but I wouldn't even call him a "star" either until he shows he can throw in the big leagues for a full season. All he is right now is a giant question mark, a $200M machine for an arm held together by duct tape and lubricated with spit and french fry grease. Had Harden been even close to a "star" level player - i.e. someone who is on the damn field more often than not - he wouldn't be simply a "star" player, he'd be one of those elites, the "superstars" you talked about earlier, and a guy like Gallagher probably doesn't net him as a centerpiece.

You couldn't be more off base saying an injured A-baller is more valuable than a young Major League baseball player with a history of success. No, you wouldn't "give that (DLS') contract away" but you certainly don't "give away" a Nick Swisher either.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 11:47 PM
I think you're looking to argue at this point.

First you said "superstar." You talked about how trading elite pitching prospects (which DLS and Gio at the time were not) for players less than superstar quality was a bad move. There are very few superstar-level players in this game. None of the players I mentioned even come close to being superstar-caliber talent.

Now you're talking about "star" players instead. What is a "star" player? A solid everyday position player, SP, or closer? A guy that made the All-Star team? Because in that sense, Scott Podsednik is a star player. AJ is a star player. Hell, our whole team is full of star players. Freddy would have been a "star" player I guess, if you decide to overlook his poor 2006 campaign relative to other years of his career including the previous one, and if you could have completely ignored his disturbing loss of velocity then I guess you could have convinced yourself that Freddy was still a "star" at that point. But if Freddy over the '06-'07 offseason was a "star" than Swisher last year was certainly a star too, so by your own confusing logic you should be happy with that trade.

If you're talking about Rich Harden being a star player, I'm afraid you're going to be the one having to do the convincing, not me. I just said he wasn't a superstar, because he's not, but I wouldn't even call him a "star" either until he shows he can throw in the big leagues for a full season. All he is right now is a giant question mark, a $200M machine for an arm held together by duct tape and lubricated with spit and french fry grease. Had Harden been even close to a "star" level player - i.e. someone who is on the damn field more often than not - he wouldn't be simply a "star" player, he'd be one of those elites, the "superstars" you talked about earlier, and a guy like Gallagher probably doesn't net him as a centerpiece.

You couldn't be more off base saying an injured A-baller is more valuable than a young Major League baseball player with a history of success. No, you wouldn't "give that (DLS') contract away" but you certainly don't "give away" a Nick Swisher either.

I think Rich Harden is the best pitcher in baseball. He gets hurt a lot. But there isn't anyone better.

We're just going to have to disagree on the value of Swishers contract. You'll see later this month when that albatros clears waivers, as it's expected to.

Optipessimism
08-04-2008, 11:52 PM
I think Rich Harden is the best pitcher in baseball. He gets hurt a lot. But there isn't anyone better.

We're just going to have to disagree on the value of Swishers contract. You'll see later this month when that albatros clears waivers, as it's expected to.
Jose Contreras and AJ Burnett are also up there as being the best pitchers in baseball (when they are healthy and have their stuff, which isn't as often as one would like). Harden has to prove himself. If he could ever stay healthy for a full year he'd at least come close to winning a Cy Young.

Swisher's contract is not an albatross and if he did clear waivers it wouldn't be because nobody else wants him, it would be because no other GM in baseball thinks he's actually available. Just because a player gets put on waivers doesn't mean he's going anywhere. Carlos Quentin could clear waivers.

munchman33
08-04-2008, 11:59 PM
Jose Contreras and AJ Burnett are also up there as being the best pitchers in baseball (when they are healthy and have their stuff, which isn't as often as one would like). Harden has to prove himself. If he could ever stay healthy for a full year he'd at least come close to winning a Cy Young.

Swisher's contract is not an albatross and if he did clear waivers it wouldn't be because nobody else wants him, it would be because no other GM in baseball thinks he's actually available. Just because a player gets put on waivers doesn't mean he's going anywhere. Carlos Quentin could clear waivers.

On point one: No they aren't. Harden always pitches well when he pitches. The guy is simply always untouchable. The other two guys are headcases. Big difference.

On point two: I don't think you understand the waiver system. Quentin would never clear, because the first team on the list would grab him. Then, only they can trade for him. Swisher would undoubtedly clear, because we could (and would) simply let any team that puts in a claim just have the contact. And nobody wants that contract, so he'd never get claimed.

Optipessimism
08-05-2008, 12:03 AM
On point one: No they aren't. Harden always pitches well when he pitches. The guy is simplly always untouchable.

On point two: I don't think you understand the waiver system. Quentin would never clear, because the first team on the list would grab him. Then, only they can trade for him. Swisher would undoubtedly clear, because we could (and would) simply let any team that puts in a claim just have the contact. And nobody wants that contract, so he'd never get claimed.
I don't think you understand how waivers work. Our entire 25-man roster probably gets put on waivers. If someone like Quentin is claimed then KW pulls the player back and that's the end of it. You probably wouldn't even know about it, and there would be no penalties against the Sox for doing so.

Teams flood the waiver wire to disguise their intentions. If you only had players out there that teams were willing to deal then the system wouldn't work and deals would hardly ever get done, because contenders chasing pack leaders would be more prone to claim a guy just to block another team, knowing that if the player they are claiming has any value whatsoever, all that team has to do is offer nothing and the waiving team will retract the player.

The difference between Harden and Contreras/Burnett is that with Harden, he's usually an ace or he's not on the field. With the other guys, they're either aces or they're on the field not being aces. I don't think that's a bad comparison at all. When Jose has his forkball he's just as deadly as Harden at his best, and when Burnett has that filthy 2-seamer and curveball going for him, goodnight.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 12:14 AM
I don't think you understand how waivers work. Our entire 25-man roster probably gets put on waivers. If someone like Quentin is claimed then KW pulls the player back and that's the end of it. You probably wouldn't even know about it, and there would be no penalties against the Sox for doing so.

Teams flood the waiver wire to disguise their intentions. If you only had players out there that teams were willing to deal then the system wouldn't work and deals would hardly ever get done, because contenders chasing pack leaders would be more prone to claim a guy just to block another team, knowing that if the player they are claiming has any value whatsoever, all that team has to do is offer nothing and the waiving team will retract the player.

The difference between Harden and Contreras/Burnett is that with Harden, he's usually an ace or he's not on the field. With the other guys, they're either aces or they're on the field not being aces. I don't think that's a bad comparison at all. When Jose has his forkball he's just as deadly as Harden at his best, and when Burnett has that filthy 2-seamer and curveball going for him, goodnight.

I understand waivers just fine. I'm just saying Quentin gets claimed immediately. Swisher wouldn't get claimed at all.

Nobody's picking Contreras or Burnett to win a Cy Young. Harden, despite his numerous injuries, gets picked constantly. And eventually, Harden is going to work passed his injuries. Guys like Contreras and Burnett are never going to put it all together for a season.

Optipessimism
08-05-2008, 12:22 AM
I understand waivers just fine. I'm just saying Quentin gets claimed immediately. Swisher wouldn't get claimed at all.

Nobody's picking Contreras or Burnett to win a Cy Young. Harden, despite his numerous injuries, gets picked constantly. And eventually, Harden is going to work passed his injuries. Guys like Contreras and Burnett are never going to put it all together for a season.
If Quentin gets claimed, what does it matter? Who cares? Nobody is getting him, so it makes no sense not to put him on waivers if you're looking to deal someone else.

Swisher isn't the worthless, expensive piece of crap that you obviously think he is. There's no point in arguing this anymore because you're somehow convinced that not even teams like KC, the Nats, Orioles, and Mariners with no viable 1B options whatsoever would assume his cheap contract to play him over the likes of Ross Gload and Kevin Millar.

Nobody was picking Harden to make 25 starts. You have no idea whether or not he'll "get past" his arm issues. It's a guess you are making, and somehow YOU are much more confident in Harden's future than Billy Beane was.

ChiSoxFan7
08-05-2008, 12:47 AM
I understand waivers just fine. I'm just saying Quentin gets claimed immediately. Swisher wouldn't get claimed at all.

Nobody's picking Contreras or Burnett to win a Cy Young. Harden, despite his numerous injuries, gets picked constantly. And eventually, Harden is going to work passed his injuries. Guys like Contreras and Burnett are never going to put it all together for a season.

and the people who tell you that he will win the cy young year in and year out are who? j/w b/c i've never heard of anyone on CSN, MLB.com or ESPN....

just wondering where you got that from...

It's Dankerific
08-05-2008, 01:50 AM
That's not going to happen - guillen would play Wise first.
Williams needs to find a leadoff hitter for this team - badly.

What he said. You don't have to argue with me if BA should be in CF, I just know that he has no chance to win that job.

"Who am I going to play in CF, Brian? Hello" - Ozzie mere days ago.

Adele_H
08-05-2008, 03:13 AM
AJ is not a power hitter.

:AJ:
"The hell you say!"




..

Adele_H
08-05-2008, 03:37 AM
I think you're looking to argue at this point.

First you said "superstar." You talked about how trading elite pitching prospects (which DLS and Gio at the time were not) for players less than superstar quality was a bad move. There are very few superstar-level players in this game. None of the players I mentioned even come close to being superstar-caliber talent.

Now you're talking about "star" players instead. What is a "star" player? A solid everyday position player, SP, or closer? A guy that made the All-Star team? Because in that sense, Scott Podsednik is a star player. AJ is a star player. Hell, our whole team is full of star players. Freddy would have been a "star" player I guess, if you decide to overlook his poor 2006 campaign relative to other years of his career including the previous one, and if you could have completely ignored his disturbing loss of velocity then I guess you could have convinced yourself that Freddy was still a "star" at that point. But if Freddy over the '06-'07 offseason was a "star" than Swisher last year was certainly a star too, so by your own confusing logic you should be happy with that trade.

If you're talking about Rich Harden being a star player, I'm afraid you're going to be the one having to do the convincing, not me. I just said he wasn't a superstar, because he's not, but I wouldn't even call him a "star" either until he shows he can throw in the big leagues for a full season. All he is right now is a giant question mark, a $200M machine for an arm held together by duct tape and lubricated with spit and french fry grease. Had Harden been even close to a "star" level player - i.e. someone who is on the damn field more often than not - he wouldn't be simply a "star" player, he'd be one of those elites, the "superstars" you talked about earlier, and a guy like Gallagher probably doesn't net him as a centerpiece.

You couldn't be more off base saying an injured A-baller is more valuable than a young Major League baseball player with a history of success. No, you wouldn't "give that (DLS') contract away" but you certainly don't "give away" a Nick Swisher either.


I think what munchman33 was trying to say is, "you don't trade top-end pitching prospects for a position player who is not a star or a phenom himself"




:KW

"Yessss...unless said pitching prospects happen to be overrated by my not-quite-competent buddies, Dave & Duane, to begin with; do not project durability; and my effin' job is on the line if the team finishes barely ahead of the Royals again... a potential cluster**** that rent-controlled moneyball lad Nick Swisher could help me avoid"




..

Adele_H
08-05-2008, 03:54 AM
Rich Harden is the best pitcher in baseball. .

Until Rich Harden puts together a 5-year run like Johan Santana has since becoming a full-time starter..... wins WS rings in both AL and NL like Josh Beckett has.... receives a Cy Young award while pitching 270 innings as Roy Halladay has... Or even makes one stinking All-Star Game appearance....

Annointing him the 'best pitcher in baseball' is laughable.

2906
08-05-2008, 06:49 AM
Injury history or not, you aren't convincing anyone Rich Harden isn't a star. The guy's the best pitcher in baseball.

An injured DLS with a rookie contract is worth a lot more than Nick Swisher with the money he's owed. You couldn't give that "great contract" away.

Laughable x 2.

Try trotting that past Gammons and Rosenthal and listen to them guffaw.

Saw your either/or post too. We were talking about hitting and you were proven wrong ... again.

Aren't you the guy who said De Los Santos has a 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer? Still waiting. If so, laughable x 3.

What you don't know about baseball is a lot. Problem is, you think you do and proceed to shout it from the rooftops.

2906
08-05-2008, 06:55 AM
I understand waivers just fine. Swisher wouldn't get claimed at all.



:rolling:

Past laughable, into insane. He'd get claimed in a hot minute.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 07:51 AM
Until Rich Harden puts together a 5-year run like Johan Santana has since becoming a full-time starter..... wins WS rings in both AL and NL like Josh Beckett has.... receives a Cy Young award while pitching 270 innings as Roy Halladay has... Or even makes one stinking All-Star Game appearance....

Annointing him the 'best pitcher in baseball' is laughable.

Fair enough, though I disagree the best pitcher in baseball needs to pitch 270 innings.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 07:57 AM
Laughable x 2.

Try trotting that past Gammons and Rosenthal and listen to them guffaw.

Saw your either/or post too. We were talking about hitting and you were proven wrong ... again.

Aren't you the guy who said De Los Santos has a 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer? Still waiting. If so, laughable x 3.

What you don't know about baseball is a lot. Problem is, you think you do and proceed to shout it from the rooftops.

Gammons just after the trade to the Cubs said when he's pitching he's the best pitcher in baseball...

If you believe that, you might have reading comprehension problems.

Yep.

Even if that's true, at least I'm civil.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 07:58 AM
:rolling:

Past laughable, into insane. He'd get claimed in a hot minute.

That'll be easy to find out, so we'll see.

2906
08-05-2008, 08:29 AM
Gammons just after the trade to the Cubs said when he's pitching he's the best pitcher in baseball...

If you believe that, you might have reading comprehension problems.

Yep.

Even if that's true, at least I'm civil.

When he's pitching, but even still it's a big reach on your part. You forgot to add that in your post. Ever heard of Sabathia?

You were talking about hitting, saying he can't hit a lick. I responded to the hitting part of your statement. Pretty simple concept, for everyone but you I guess.

Only someone with extremely limited and highly skewed baseball sense would say a Class A pitcher has a 50% chance to be a Hall of Famer, let alone that same pitcher with elbow problems. No one's laughing with you, they're laughing at you. Run that statement past your buddies Gammons and Rosenthal, you'll hear an even louder laugh.

2906
08-05-2008, 08:30 AM
That'll be easy to find out, so we'll see.

Care to wager whether the White Sox will allow him to be lost on waivers?

Not as if you'd pay up when you lose, but that's another story.

palehozenychicty
08-05-2008, 08:43 AM
We have two of those guys on our team. Danks was traded for McCarthy who wasn't a superstar and didn't have superstar potential with his frame, delivery, and arrow-straight 88-92mph FB. Floyd and Gio both came here for an injured Freddy Garcia.

This year Sean Gallagher was traded. He's a possible front-end guy, and it's not like Mr. Disabled List Rich Harden is/was a superstar. Players have to be healthy to become that.

I'm sure there are other examples. You mentioning Kazmir is a very rare exception to the rule. I'll agree that was a moronic move for the Mets both now and at the time, and Phillips was in hot water fast because of it. But, it's not like Gio was that kind of prospect. You seem to put Gio and DLS both into the Phil Hughes/Clayton Kershaw/David Price kind of realm of prospects. Gio just doesn't have that kind of stuff and as 2906 mentioned, there have always been durability concerns with him (even though Gio has so far proven his naysayers wrong). Gio is a very nice pitching prospect, but you can't put him up that high. DLS had the highest ceiling of the deal, and he was and still is a very good prospect with a very high ceiling, but he wasn't even close to being an untouchable type player. DLS was where Johnny Cueto was a couple years back, only better IMO.

At first I didn't like the Swisher deal either, mainly because I didn't like the idea of giving up our best pitching prospects without getting a pitcher in return, but also for the reason that I thought it would have been wiser to hang on to DLS for one more year to give him the chance to work himself into top-20 prospect range where he could fetch more. As it looks so far, the Sox did the right thing moving him, but they just didn't do it for the right player.


Jim Duquette actually was the interim GM who traded Kazmir for V. Zambrano. He was promptly fired. Phillips didn't have a chance to screw up before that one, as he was canned also.

asindc
08-05-2008, 08:45 AM
It's ok, keep defending Kenny blindly. Ignore the fact he didn't add a pitcher to an imploding staff, ignore the fact every first round pick for the last few years until Beckham (jury is out) has been a bust. Ignore he overpaid to get Swisher because he struck out in Free Agency and dealt out top 2 pitching prospects for a guy hitting below .250.

Like I said, I like Kenny, but he did not get it done this year. He has about broken even over the years with his trades. For every Todd Ritchie there is a Danks, for every Swisher there is a Quentin. No GM is flawless, but if our starters and bullpen keep us out of the playoffs, its on him 100%.

Hmm. I will defend any Sox fan's right to criticize anyone connected to the team, including the owner and GM, but do you really think he did not get it done this year, just based on the Swisher trade? Let's look at the results so far:

Swisher- Underperforming vs. Gio/DLS slightly underperforming/hurt;

Cabrera- Overall about what we expected vs. Garland slightly underperforming (don't forget Garland was going to walk at the end of the season anyway. He has always wanted to go back to Cali);

Dotel- Overpaid, but effective;

Linebrink- Overpaid, but effective (in fact, KW admitted he was overpaying for both Dotel and Linebrink but said it was unavoidable to get them);

Alexei- A very pleasant HUGE surprise. If anyone had known he would be this good this soon, no need to make the Cabrera deal, IMO.

TCQ- Well, you know.

Bottom line: I think criticizing KW in general is fair, but to say he didn't get it done this year ignores all the good moves he has made.

KenBerryGrab
08-05-2008, 10:31 AM
I understand waivers just fine. I'm just saying Quentin gets claimed immediately. Swisher wouldn't get claimed at all.



This is total bull. The Mets would claim Swisher in about 2 seconds.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 11:51 AM
You were talking about hitting, saying he can't hit a lick. I responded to the hitting part of your statement. Pretty simple concept, for everyone but you I guess.


Stop arguing semantics, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't think Nick Swisher can't hit. I just don't think he:

1.) can't hit well enough to play corner outfield or 1b
2.) can't field well enough to play center (a position he does hit decently for)

munchman33
08-05-2008, 12:04 PM
This is total bull. The Mets would claim Swisher in about 2 seconds.

Maybe...the Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox are the only ones who would consider it, because they can pay bench players what Swisher makes. And the Mets do have an opening. But we're talking about a maybe situation for three teams. Not exactly the great contract everyone keeps clamoring about.

2906
08-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Stop arguing semantics, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't think Nick Swisher can't hit. I just don't think he:

1.) can't hit well enough to play corner outfield or 1b
2.) can't field well enough to play center (a position he does hit decently for)

What on earth are you talking about?

You made a comment about his hitting, I responded with facts.

Can you not figure out the simplest of things? You've been accused of bashing a point just for the sake of arguing, I'm seeing it's true.

Admit it. You've made some outlandish statements in this thread. It's not just me taking you to task ... whether it's this thread or in the countless others where people take issue with some of your wacky statements.

2906
08-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Maybe...the Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox are the only ones who would consider it, because they can pay bench players what Swisher makes. And the Mets do have an opening. But we're talking about a maybe situation for three teams. Not exactly the great contract everyone keeps clamoring about.

Why do you state things and then back off? Why don't you think before you post instead of having to say "oh yeah ... ummm ... maybe those three teams."

You said no one would claim him. Now you're saying a few probably would.

Give it up, you don't know what you're talking about.

2906
08-05-2008, 02:13 PM
I just don't think he:

1.) can't hit well enough to play corner outfield or 1b
2.) can't field well enough to play center (a position he does hit decently for)

Speaking of semantics, if you're sticking to your point, I think you mean to say "I just don't think he:

1. Can hit well enough to play corner OF or 1B
2. Can field well enough to play center

You're confusing enough as it is, even without the improper word usage.

Adele_H
08-05-2008, 03:04 PM
This is total bull. The Mets would claim Swisher in about 2 seconds.

And have you seen what crap Tampa is trotting out there at DH and RF?

munchman33
08-05-2008, 03:27 PM
Why do you state things and then back off? Why don't you think before you post instead of having to say "oh yeah ... ummm ... maybe those three teams."

You said no one would claim him. Now you're saying a few probably would.

Give it up, you don't know what you're talking about.

Because there's never a never. And it's possible that he'd get claimed in a perfect situation. But it's incredibly unlikely. I didn't say probably would. I said there's a situation where they could. Once again, you're reading what you want to read.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 03:28 PM
Speaking of semantics, if you're sticking to your point, I think you mean to say "I just don't think he:

1. Can hit well enough to play corner OF or 1B
2. Can field well enough to play center

You're confusing enough as it is, even without the improper word usage.

Like I said before...arguing for the sake of arguing.

There is a way to discuss things without being insulting, you know.

2906
08-05-2008, 03:29 PM
But it's incredibly unlikely.

Wrong again.

Congrats, the Golden Sombrero for you today!

I'll leave the thread now because I think I've made my viewpoint clear, both on the subject matter at hand, and about you and your baseball, ahem, acumen.

If you want to have the last word, be my guest. I enjoy posting here and have no desire to push the envelope further than it's been pushed in this thread.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 03:31 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

You made a comment about his hitting, I responded with facts.

Can you not figure out the simplest of things? You've been accused of bashing a point just for the sake of arguing, I'm seeing it's true.

Admit it. You've made some outlandish statements in this thread. It's not just me taking you to task ... whether it's this thread or in the countless others where people take issue with some of your wacky statements.

:rolleyes:

Why don't you just put me on your ignore list if you really think that's what's going on.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 03:32 PM
Wrong again.

Congrats, the Golden Sombrero for you today!

I'll leave the thread now because I think I've made my viewpoint clear, both on the subject matter at hand, and about you and your baseball, ahem, acumen.

If you want to have the last word, be my guest. I enjoy posting here and have no desire to push the envelope further than it's been pushed in this thread.

You've got it all figured out. :bandance:

Optipessimism
08-05-2008, 04:37 PM
Munchman:

First, here are some facts for you:

1. Swisher makes $3.5M in 2008, $5.3M in 2009, $6.75 million in 2010, $9M in 2011, and there's a club option for $10.25M in 2012 with a $1M buyout.

In other words, he makes less than Juan Uribe this year, $800K more than Juan Uribe next year, about the cost of Juan Uribe and Pablo Ozuna in 2010, and in both 2011 and 2012 he'll make an amount that, given the rate of future inflation, will be about the price of a solid platoon player. This is for a 28 year old player who has hit at least 21 HR's and 24 2B's since playing regularly in the majors. This is a guy who has walked 100 times in a season before and, in that giant park in Oakland, was able to hit 35 home runs one season. There is more than enough evidence to assume that 2008 is NOT the end of this guy's career.

2. Rich Harden has just surpassed the 100 IP point, which he hasn't done since 2005 when he threw 128 IP. This is only the third time since debuting in 2003 that he has thrown over 100 IP, and his career high is 189.2 IP.

Billy Beane has most likely watched every single pro start Harden has ever made. He's probably seen a good portion of his minor league starts before that. The guy knows Harden personally and has given him chance after chance after chance. The A's are a Major League organization and have the benefit of receiving the best medical information out there, yet Billy Beane still sold low on Rich Harden. He even had to give up Chad Gaudin as part of the package in order to get players he thought were acceptable.

Now, on to my point:

It would be so much easier to just admit you were wrong about a number of things instead of arguing over and over when even you have to know you were wrong. Maybe that way instead of annoying some fellow Sox fans you could actually earn a little bit of respect from them. My suggestion would be to say:

1. I was wrong about DLS. I was wowed by his stuff, which was head-and-shoulders above the stuff your typical pitching prospect flashes, and I made a comment that I probably shouldn't have made.

2. I was wrong about Gio being such a great prospect. He is a very good prospect, but he was not elite. I admit that KW and his staff are better at deciding who the elite pitching prospects are than I am.

3. I was wrong about Swisher and I recognize that even players that don't fit my ideal mold still can have value to other teams. I have no evidence to support my assumption that nobody else would want Swisher even if he didn't cost any talent to acquire. I just simply do not like Nick Swisher and my hatred for him as a player clouded my judgment.

4. I am fully aware of the difference between "the best pitcher in baseball" and "one of the most electric arms in baseball." Knowing that difference, Rich Harden is not the best pitcher in baseball because I see that, in this his 6th year in the big leagues, he has only started 93 games and pitched a total of 566 innings. I understand that in order to be the best starting pitcher in baseball, a pitcher must do better than that. 566 IP is 2 1/2 years of work, not 6, and 93 starts is 3 years of work, also not 6. I will now study up on Roy Halladay, Brandon Webb, and Johan Santana because they are light years better than Rich Harden.

5. I apologize to 2906. I'm sorry I've been making you bang into the wall, and I would be happy to cover the costs of any necessary repairs.

There, just copy and paste that. You'd end several arguments and probably put an end to most, if not all, the "DLS is a future HOFer" remarks.

Domeshot17
08-05-2008, 04:43 PM
why should he say he is wrong, Gio and Sweeney was fair price for Swisher, Gio-Sweeney and DLS was vastly overpaying to make up for the fact he could not land a free agent. I know I know I know, he tried real hard there too. But Kenny lives and Dies with trades. He has never been a major player in FA (He got AJ on the cheap for his rep and Dye because of his injury history). He doesn't chase the big name, next year we won't be on the Tiexera deals, and he won't negotiate with the guy that represents a lot of the better FA's. He gave up his 2 best prospects and Sweeney for a guy who hit .250 with 20 something homers the year before. Yes he takes a lot of walks, but that package could have landed us better than Swisher. I like Swish a lot, but that package could have brought back much much more.

Optipessimism
08-05-2008, 04:49 PM
why should he say he is wrong, Gio and Sweeney was fair price for Swisher, Gio-Sweeney and DLS was vastly overpaying to make up for the fact he could not land a free agent. I know I know I know, he tried real hard there too. But Kenny lives and Dies with trades. He has never been a major player in FA (He got AJ on the cheap for his rep and Dye because of his injury history). He doesn't chase the big name, next year we won't be on the Tiexera deals, and he won't negotiate with the guy that represents a lot of the better FA's. He gave up his 2 best prospects and Sweeney for a guy who hit .250 with 20 something homers the year before. Yes he takes a lot of walks, but that package could have landed us better than Swisher. I like Swish a lot, but that package could have brought back much much more.
I'm not saying it's wrong to dislike the Swisher deal. It's completely inaccurate however to make it out like DLS and Gio were so much better prospects than they were and still are.

Neither one of those guys gets you a superstar. It just doesn't happen. We offered that and then some (plus Fields and Danks) for Miguel Cabrera and we didn't get him. The Marlins used the opportunity to also dump Willis, but they could have dumped him separately. The Marlins made that trade because Maybin was a truly elite prospect and Miller was close. We didn't have that in the farm.

Domeshot17
08-05-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm not saying it's wrong to dislike the Swisher deal. It's completely inaccurate however to make it out like DLS and Gio were so much better prospects than they were and still are.

Neither one of those guys gets you a superstar. It just doesn't happen. We offered that and then some (plus Fields and Danks) for Miguel Cabrera and we didn't get him. The Marlins used the opportunity to also dump Willis, but they could have dumped him separately. The Marlins made that trade because Maybin was a truly elite prospect and Miller was close. We didn't have that in the farm.

Until his arm surgery DLS was viewed as a top 25 prospect by some, top 50 by most. Gio was top 75 by most and top 100 by all Fields was looked highly upon. Poreda not so much, he is the typical KW/Sox Fan love fest of a guy who throws 98 with nothing else. My point is, when you only have 2 prospects worth a damn, and you use them both in a deal, you better get an all star back, not just a pretty good player.

Optipessimism
08-05-2008, 05:04 PM
Until his arm surgery DLS was viewed as a top 25 prospect by some, top 50 by most. Gio was top 75 by most and top 100 by all Fields was looked highly upon. Poreda not so much, he is the typical KW/Sox Fan love fest of a guy who throws 98 with nothing else. My point is, when you only have 2 prospects worth a damn, and you use them both in a deal, you better get an all star back, not just a pretty good player.
Maybin and Miller were top-10 everywhere, top-5 in most places (for people that still viewed Miller as a prospect).

I think KW & Co. thought they were getting an All-Star. Make no mistake, a guy that can walk 100 times per year and flashed 35-HR power in a pitcher's park with a ton of foul territory has All-Star abilities. Nick just hasn't shown it yet.

And, KW said he gave up a whole lot. He didn't use the word "overpaid" because that would be discrediting Swisher, but he came very close to saying that. Kenny struck out on Hunter and didn't want to go 5 years with Rowand, Andruw Jones wasn't a possibility from the get-go given his agent, and then he swung and missed on Miguel Cabrera, so Kenny did what he thought he had to in order to improve the team. It wasn't a short-sighted move either given Swisher's contract. The deal simply hasn't worked out for us up to this point.

Edit: just going off of BA's lists, in 2006 Maybin was no. 31, Miller didn't rate in the top 50. In 2007 they had Maybin #6, Miller #10. In 2008 Miller wasn't listed due to service time and Maybin came in at #6. Fan rankings and other sites had different rankings, but Miller was close to being elite (some would say he was an elite prospect) and Maybin was definitely an elite prospect.

Adele_H
08-05-2008, 05:33 PM
Maybin and Miller were top-10 everywhere, top-5 in most places (for people that still viewed Miller as a prospect).

I think KW & Co. thought they were getting an All-Star. Make no mistake, a guy that can walk 100 times per year and flashed 35-HR power in a pitcher's park with a ton of foul territory has All-Star abilities. Nick just hasn't shown it yet.

And, KW said he gave up a whole lot. He didn't use the word "overpaid" because that would be discrediting Swisher, but he came very close to saying that. Kenny struck out on Hunter and didn't want to go 5 years with Rowand, Andruw Jones wasn't a possibility from the get-go given his agent, and then he swung and missed on Miguel Cabrera, so Kenny did what he thought he had to in order to improve the team. It wasn't a short-sighted move either given Swisher's contract. The deal simply hasn't worked out for us up to this point.


K-Dub had no way of knowing that both Danks and Floyd would turn in near-all-star caliber performances this year when he made that deal for Swisher.

Of course, he also didn't know Quentin would be the MVP of AL, either or that Dye would be an All-star again. Lost out on MCabrera, Fukudome, Rowand, Hunter, Jones, etc which had to me somewhat embarassing. So I guess he was desperate for an OF stick.

And maybe even disenchanted with SP prospects that for the most part had let him down as of late - Diaz, Munoz, Wright, Cotts (as starter), Danks, Floyd, MaCarthy, Tracey, Haeger. Plus the Whisler, Broadway, MacLulloch, Liotta fare.

It must have felt good to get a "sure thing" in Swisher. Signed at reasonable rate, at that, which had to thrill JR and Co.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 07:14 PM
Munchman:

First, here are some facts for you:

1. Swisher makes $3.5M in 2008, $5.3M in 2009, $6.75 million in 2010, $9M in 2011, and there's a club option for $10.25M in 2012 with a $1M buyout.

In other words, he makes less than Juan Uribe this year, $800K more than Juan Uribe next year, about the cost of Juan Uribe and Pablo Ozuna in 2010, and in both 2011 and 2012 he'll make an amount that, given the rate of future inflation, will be about the price of a solid platoon player. This is for a 28 year old player who has hit at least 21 HR's and 24 2B's since playing regularly in the majors. This is a guy who has walked 100 times in a season before and, in that giant park in Oakland, was able to hit 35 home runs one season. There is more than enough evidence to assume that 2008 is NOT the end of this guy's career.

2. Rich Harden has just surpassed the 100 IP point, which he hasn't done since 2005 when he threw 128 IP. This is only the third time since debuting in 2003 that he has thrown over 100 IP, and his career high is 189.2 IP.

Billy Beane has most likely watched every single pro start Harden has ever made. He's probably seen a good portion of his minor league starts before that. The guy knows Harden personally and has given him chance after chance after chance. The A's are a Major League organization and have the benefit of receiving the best medical information out there, yet Billy Beane still sold low on Rich Harden. He even had to give up Chad Gaudin as part of the package in order to get players he thought were acceptable.

Now, on to my point:

It would be so much easier to just admit you were wrong about a number of things instead of arguing over and over when even you have to know you were wrong. Maybe that way instead of annoying some fellow Sox fans you could actually earn a little bit of respect from them. My suggestion would be to say:

1. I was wrong about DLS. I was wowed by his stuff, which was head-and-shoulders above the stuff your typical pitching prospect flashes, and I made a comment that I probably shouldn't have made.

2. I was wrong about Gio being such a great prospect. He is a very good prospect, but he was not elite. I admit that KW and his staff are better at deciding who the elite pitching prospects are than I am.

3. I was wrong about Swisher and I recognize that even players that don't fit my ideal mold still can have value to other teams. I have no evidence to support my assumption that nobody else would want Swisher even if he didn't cost any talent to acquire. I just simply do not like Nick Swisher and my hatred for him as a player clouded my judgment.

4. I am fully aware of the difference between "the best pitcher in baseball" and "one of the most electric arms in baseball." Knowing that difference, Rich Harden is not the best pitcher in baseball because I see that, in this his 6th year in the big leagues, he has only started 93 games and pitched a total of 566 innings. I understand that in order to be the best starting pitcher in baseball, a pitcher must do better than that. 566 IP is 2 1/2 years of work, not 6, and 93 starts is 3 years of work, also not 6. I will now study up on Roy Halladay, Brandon Webb, and Johan Santana because they are light years better than Rich Harden.

5. I apologize to 2906. I'm sorry I've been making you bang into the wall, and I would be happy to cover the costs of any necessary repairs.

There, just copy and paste that. You'd end several arguments and probably put an end to most, if not all, the "DLS is a future HOFer" remarks.

Haha...two lists to answer. I'll try to read everything here.

List one:

1. If he's a part time/bench guy, that contract is not reasonable. Juan Uribe is a bad example, because he also shouldn't be paid what he's getting.

2. I see what you're saying about Harden. And you're right, his injuries severely damage his value. But he's still been having his healthiest season in years, and has been everything he can be this year.

List two:

1. DLS did have crazy stuff and really good command. And I was enamored with his promise. And I really did feel he'd be one of the better pitchers we've seen. I guess we'll never know what he could have been. Despite how people make it out, I did preface it by saying if he never got injured. The "stuff" was just too good not to dominate.

2. There are a lot of GM's that would disagree with you on that. He's one of four or five top end pitching prospects in baseball ready for the big leagues. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying he's one of the top five pitching prospects in baseball. But of the top pitching prospects in baseball, he's one of the guys ready to contribute. A year from now, he'll likely be a steady two or three, with potential to improve.

3. Nope. Nick Swisher has close to zero value with that contract. He really doesn't hit well enough to be an everyday player, and gets paid to much to ride the pine.

4. You're right. I should have worded it differently. He's the best when he's pitching, and he hasn't pitched much. I'm not an idiot, and I'd certainly take a Johan Santana over him in a heartbeat.

5. What are you, his father? The kid spent the entire thread trying to bait me into a pissing match. If I'm sorry for anything, it's that other people had to read it.

Craig Grebeck
08-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Nick Swisher's OPS+ in 2006-07: 125, 127

Yes, hitting 25 and 27 percent better than league average obviously makes him unqualified to play everyday. Thanks, Munchman.

Craig Grebeck
08-05-2008, 07:48 PM
Also, I don't really think you can be the best pitcher in baseball (even with Harden's nintendo numbers) if you must be handled with kid gloves and aren't able to go deep into games more than once a month.

2906
08-05-2008, 09:21 PM
5. What are you, his father? The kid spent the entire thread trying to bait me into a pissing match. If I'm sorry for anything, it's that other people had to read it.

Don't push it *******.

I responded with facts, you kept trotting out your lame assumptions.

And I'm no kid. I'm more than old enough to stand up to your crap. Saw my first game in 1966. So anytime you want to talk baseball, first of all, learn it. Then, come back when you learn how to leave your undeserved ample ego at the door.

2906
08-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Nick Swisher's OPS+ in 2006-07: 125, 127

Yes, hitting 25 and 27 percent better than league average obviously makes him unqualified to play everyday. Thanks, Munchman.

Craig, forget it. He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and he gets off being the contrarian.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 09:47 PM
Don't push it *******.

I responded with facts, you kept trotting out your lame assumptions.



You've spent the bulk of the thread making personal attacks and calling me out on grammatical errors.

My apologies for calling you a kid.

munchman33
08-05-2008, 09:48 PM
Nick Swisher's OPS+ in 2006-07: 125, 127

Yes, hitting 25 and 27 percent better than league average obviously makes him unqualified to play everyday. Thanks, Munchman.

Where does that rank with 1B and LF? Just curious. I'm not a big fan of OPS+ and sabermetrics, but I'll hear you out.

2906
08-06-2008, 01:18 PM
You've spent the bulk of the thread making personal attacks and calling me out on grammatical errors.


I've spent the bulk of the thread refuting your completely inaccurate assumptions. If you call those attacks, go ahead. As for the grammatical errors, oh well.

I've been told to ignore you as apparently you have a history of stirring the pot intentionally and arguing just to argue.

If you want to keep it about baseball, I'll respond and we can dialogue. If you trot out the "anyone who knows anything about baseball" BS the next time someone refutes your assumptions, be prepared for a vigorous response.

Interestingly, I wasn't the only one taking you to task in this thread. There were many others. Just as interesting, that seems to happen a lot when it comes to you.

Now, I am quite willing to let it drop. Let's see if you can do the same.