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View Full Version : Why do we struggle in the 2nd half of seasons


Frankie5Angels
08-02-2008, 06:24 PM
I don't post much, but I have been trying to think why the Whitesox seem to struugle so much in the 2nd halves of the season. I really can't think of any reasons. Is the team not conditioned properly? Is it coaching? Is it we fail to make adjustments to hitters and pitchers after they make adjustments to us. It has to be something because it seems to happen every year.

QCIASOXFAN
08-02-2008, 06:26 PM
Great question.

I don't have an answer though.

Frankie5Angels
08-02-2008, 06:48 PM
Great question.

I don't have an answer though.
I know. I can't answer it neither. It has to be something about us not being able to make adjustments in the 2nd half,after teams make their adjustments on us. That is the only thing I can think of.

turners56
08-02-2008, 07:15 PM
I don't post much, but I have been trying to think why the Whitesox seem to struugle so much in the 2nd halves of the season. I really can't think of any reasons. Is the team not conditioned properly? Is it coaching? Is it we fail to make adjustments to hitters and pitchers after they make adjustments to us. It has to be something because it seems to happen every year.

Fatigue.

Lip Man 1
08-02-2008, 07:18 PM
I disagree completely with the "fatigue" excuse.

Ozzie goes out of his way (too much in my opinion) giving guys rests. He uses his bench...players don't play six straight weeks. He does this SPECIFICALLY to keep them fresh in the second half.

Lip

turners56
08-02-2008, 07:22 PM
I disagree completely with the "fatigue" excuse.

Ozzie goes out of his way (too much in my opinion) giving guys rests. He uses his bench...players don't play six straight weeks. He does this SPECIFICALLY to keep them fresh in the second half.

Lip

What other reason is there? Why did our entire staff suck in 06 in the second half? Maybe it's because they pitched a lot for 1.5 years and a postseason. Why is our staff sucking now? Maybe it's because Danks and Floyd have never pitched so much in their careers. Why is our bullpen sucking? Why did our bullpen suck in 06? It's fatigue. Guys are getting overused. A perfect example is Linebrink, and now Contreras.

It could be something else, but I don't see anything else that's a better possibility than fatigue.

Lip Man 1
08-02-2008, 07:27 PM
The Sox are 15-15 in the second half so far (by second half I mean from the 82nd game of the season on...)

Maybe "talent level" has something to do with it. Maybe injuries (Thomas / Ordonez in 2004), maybe a lousy bullpen in 2006 and 2007.

Fatigue is to simple and to easy an answer in my opinion, it simply doesn't jive with Ozzie always giving guys off.

Maybe he needs to stick with a lineup and ride it.

And something else I just thought of while painting...call it the "personality" of this team. The only guys who'll get in someone's face, scream, tip over a food spread are Kenny and Ozzie....sometimes "motivation" has to come from within and the Sox don't appear to have any of those type guys who can police teammates, kick them in the rear end if needed or be a genuine "leader" when things are heading south.

Lip

BainesHOF
08-02-2008, 07:50 PM
It probably isn't a coincidence. There has to be a reason or three.

I'm thinking that maybe Ozzie overuses his bullpen in the first half of the season to the point that it breaks down in the second half. Then when the pitching starts breaking down, Ozzie's poor handling of it becomes magnified.

I'm also thinking our general lack of fundamentals shown during Ozzie's tenure costs us when we stop breezing our way to wins.

Maybe Ozzie's personality wears thin on a team as the season wears on. (The latest example being how he basically badmouthed Anderson and Wise earlier this week. Stuff like that doesn't help.)

wealz07
08-02-2008, 08:18 PM
My theory is that Sox park is very hard to pitch in when the weather warms up putting a lot of stress on the pitching staff. Also, it seems like the second half schedules the last few years are tougher than the first half.

southsideirish71
08-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Its a simple one. Pucker factor. When the dog days of August approach, thats when the pennant races start to heat up. Our pitchers start to tire, and start to pitch away from contact. They go away constantly and thats when opposing hitters start to dive and drive with the pitches that wind up away.

Our hitters have their jeckle and hyde routine based on trying to do too much. Instead of concentrating with 2 strikes and a man on 2nd. They decide to go hero and hit the dramatic home run. Some times it works, and we score 9 - 10 runs. The next day it doesnt. We get 3 hit.

This season its another issue all together. We just need to turn back to April and May when our pitching was so lights out. And of offense was worst in the league. If our offense was just medicore we would have a larger cushom that we could ride out now in the dog days. However, they were pathetic back then. And we wasted a lot of good pitching efforts. Now that is costing us. Those early losses on quality starts might not seem big because we had a lot of season ahead of us. However, it is biting us right now. Right now we should be 5 games up on Minny, Detroit should of sold off most of its players as it was buried and we should be worried about the papers talkng about how the Twinks are within 5 games of us. Our lack of offense early in the season is the reason we are in the pickle we are in now. The post before talked about the stress our pitchers are under in the summer. Think about the stress our staff went through for the first part of th season where only perfection guarented a win. Danks record at the ASB speaks volumes to this. His ERA should of been good enough for 10 wins.

WhiteSox5187
08-02-2008, 08:36 PM
It probably isn't a coincidence. There has to be a reason or three.

I'm thinking that maybe Ozzie overuses his bullpen in the first half of the season to the point that it breaks down in the second half. Then when the pitching starts breaking down, Ozzie's poor handling of it becomes magnified.

I'm also thinking our general lack of fundamentals shown during Ozzie's tenure costs us when we stop breezing our way to wins.

Maybe Ozzie's personality wears thin on a team as the season wears on. (The latest example being how he basically badmouthed Anderson and Wise earlier this week. Stuff like that doesn't help.)
The White Sox's lack of fundamentals go well beyond Ozzie's tenure. It goes into the Manuel, Bevington and possibly even the Lamont era.

Frankie5Angels
08-02-2008, 08:36 PM
Its a simple one. Pucker factor. When the dog days of August approach, thats when the pennant races start to heat up. Our pitchers start to tire, and start to pitch away from contact. They go away constantly and thats when opposing hitters start to dive and drive with the pitches that wind up away.

Our hitters have their jeckle and hyde routine based on trying to do too much. Instead of concentrating with 2 strikes and a man on 2nd. They decide to go hero and hit the dramatic home run. Some times it works, and we score 9 - 10 runs. The next day it doesnt. We get 3 hit.

This season its another issue all together. We just need to turn back to April and May when our pitching was so lights out. And of offense was worst in the league. If our offense was just medicore we would have a larger cushom that we could ride out now in the dog days. However, they were pathetic back then. And we wasted a lot of good pitching efforts. Now that is costing us. Those early losses on quality starts might not seem big because we had a lot of season ahead of us. However, it is biting us right now. Right now we should be 5 games up on Minny, Detroit should of sold off most of its players as it was buried and we should be worried about the papers talkng about how the Twinks are within 5 games of us. Our lack of offense early in the season is the reason we are in the pickle we are in now. The post before talked about the stress our pitchers are under in the summer. Think about the stress our staff went through for the first part of th season where only perfection guarented a win. Danks record at the ASB speaks volumes to this. His ERA should of been good enough for 10 wins.
I agree that we the early season struggles we had offensivly really hurt us as far as having a bigger lead than we do right now. We wasted alot of great pitching, and in the end it may come back and bite us in the ass.

As for our hitters trying to be hero's instead of just going for the base hit, that is an organizational philosophy we teach I think. We have way too many of the same types of hitters. Low average and hit for power type of guys. Also I believe that having speed in our lineup really hurts us as far as manufacturing runs, when the team isn't hitting. Laying down bunts, moving the runner over, smart baseball.

southsideirish71
08-02-2008, 08:40 PM
The White Sox's lack of fundamentals go well beyond Ozzie's tenure. It goes into the Manuel, Bevington and possibly even the Lamont era.

One of our lack of fundamentals that has killed us for the longest time, is the ability to put the ball in play with a man in scoring position with less than 2 outs. We need a single, and we have guys trying to crush a pitch. Its like our hitters think the only way someone can score is if they trot around the bases.

Our ability to play solid defense under pressure outside of 05 is another one. Not just making the fancy play, or the routine catch. Its keeping the ball on the infield. Making sure the trailer doesnt advance setting up a big inning.

turners56
08-02-2008, 08:43 PM
The White Sox's lack of fundamentals go well beyond Ozzie's tenure. It goes into the Manuel, Bevington and possibly even the Lamont era.

We did it right for one year, then we go back to what we did before. Pretty mysterious...

WhiteSox5187
08-02-2008, 08:43 PM
One of our lack of fundamentals that has killed us for the longest time, is the ability to put the ball in play with a man in scoring position with less than 2 outs. We need a single, and we have guys trying to crush a pitch. Its like our hitters think the only way someone can score is if they trot around the bases.

Our ability to play solid defense under pressure outside of 05 is another one. Not just making the fancy play, or the routine catch. Its keeping the ball on the infield. Making sure the trailer doesnt advance setting up a big inning.
Part of our problem with defense this year has been Alexei's inexperience at the major league level, but I'm not so worried about that...as for our lack of fundamentals at the plate, it's been like that for a loooooong time. As long as I can remember. Maybe it's something they teach at the minor league level (as Daver suggests, but I don't know, I'm not very familiar with the Sox minor league system), maybe it's who we draft, maybe it's how our GM views ballplayers...but it's no coincidence that the year we won it all was the year we had good pitching and defense and a balanced offensive approach. We've really strayed from that balanced offensive approach since '05.

southsideirish71
08-02-2008, 08:49 PM
Part of our problem with defense this year has been Alexei's inexperience at the major league level, but I'm not so worried about that...as for our lack of fundamentals at the plate, it's been like that for a loooooong time. As long as I can remember. Maybe it's something they teach at the minor league level (as Daver suggests, but I don't know, I'm not very familiar with the Sox minor league system), maybe it's who we draft, maybe it's how our GM views ballplayers...but it's no coincidence that the year we won it all was the year we had good pitching and defense and a balanced offensive approach. We've really strayed from that balanced offensive approach since '05.

I think you put too much on the importance of Alexei's errors or mental mistakes in the field. He is a rookie, and they make mistakes. How about the left side of our infield which has a gold glover and a guy who we believe is a gold glover. How many times do we see the trailer advancing to setup a big inning when our vet outfielders decide to gun it.

soxtalker
08-02-2008, 08:54 PM
I would certainly buy the fatigue and injury factors. Now, there is another possible factor -- the adjustments of the other teams and how we react to them. Now, the rest of the league will adjust their approach to any team that starts out well. But it may be that we just don't have the ability to change our approach that much.

Frankie5Angels
08-02-2008, 09:02 PM
I would certainly buy the fatigue and injury factors. Now, there is another possible factor -- the adjustments of the other teams and how we react to them. Now, the rest of the league will adjust their approach to any team that starts out well. But it may be that we just don't have the ability to change our approach that much.
I agree alot with this. I don't think this team adjusts well, from our scouting to our coaching to our players.

Frater Perdurabo
08-02-2008, 09:13 PM
It probably isn't a coincidence. There has to be a reason or three.

I'm thinking that maybe Ozzie overuses his bullpen in the first half of the season to the point that it breaks down in the second half. Then when the pitching starts breaking down, Ozzie's poor handling of it becomes magnified.

I'm also thinking our general lack of fundamentals shown during Ozzie's tenure costs us when we stop breezing our way to wins.

Maybe Ozzie's personality wears thin on a team as the season wears on. (The latest example being how he basically badmouthed Anderson and Wise earlier this week. Stuff like that doesn't help.)

Spot on. Excellent post.

To that I would add one more related factor. Though this team has spent a lot of money on pitching (especially starting pitching), it just hasn't put enough resources into the bullpen. The organization imposes a budget upon itself, and KW likes to put his "limited" resources into high-octane power hitters. He started to address that by signing Linebrink and Dotel, but it hasn't been enough. (Also, I wonder if KW had signed Hunter, would he have spent the money on Linebrink and/or Dotel?)

Noneck
08-02-2008, 09:29 PM
Though this team has spent a lot of money on pitching (especially starting pitching), it just hasn't put enough resources into the bullpen.


I feel as though the resources for the bullpen should be invested in the minor league system. In my opinion all relievers except premier closers are a crap shoot. They are usually one year hot, one year cold but they all now demand long term contracts. Most everyone was patting Williams on the back for getting Linebrink and Dotel after the first 3 months of the season, lets see how great of a FA pick up it was a year from now or even a month from now.

Spend your resources in the minor league system for cheap bull pen help is my point.

Jim Shorts
08-02-2008, 10:12 PM
One guess would be that this team is old

Frater Perdurabo
08-02-2008, 10:13 PM
I feel as though the resources for the bullpen should be invested in the minor league system. In my opinion all relievers except premier closers are a crap shoot. They are usually one year hot, one year cold but they all now demand long term contracts. Most everyone was patting Williams on the back for getting Linebrink and Dotel after the first 3 months of the season, lets see how great of a FA pick up it was a year from now or even a month from now.

Spend your resources in the minor league system for cheap bull pen help is my point.

How about having fewer high-dollar 1B/DH-types, and investing in two or three guys with "closer" experience, plus the set-up guys, and put more resources into drafting and developing and teaching good position players (who can field and hit and execute the fundamentals) and good pitchers?

Then, your best pitchers that come up from through system can do an apprenticeship in long and middle relief until a spot in the rotation opens up.

Noneck
08-02-2008, 10:14 PM
How about having fewer high-dollar 1B/DH-types, and investing in two or three guys with "closer" experience, plus the set-up guys, and put more resources into drafting and developing and teaching good position players (who can field and hit and execute the fundamentals) and good pitchers?

Then, your best pitchers that come up from through system can do an apprenticeship in long and middle relief until a spot in the rotation opens up.
Sounds ok to me.

Frater Perdurabo
08-02-2008, 10:17 PM
Sounds ok to me.

:D: Hey, we agree! :cool:

TDog
08-02-2008, 11:10 PM
The White Sox's lack of fundamentals go well beyond Ozzie's tenure. It goes into the Manuel, Bevington and possibly even the Lamont era.

If you want to complain about fundamentals, White Sox fans have been complaining about the team's lack of fundamentals since I came of age as a Sox fan, which was after they had 17 straight winning seasons from 1951 through 1967. In 1983, a friend told me the reason they lost Game 4 of the ALCS that he had the opportunity to attend was that the team lacked fundamentals, as they always had. It might be possible that the Sox look fundamentally bad to Sox fans is that they watch mostly Sox games. I've seen Sox teams win some games against good teams who had fundamentally bad days and nights.

Some seasons fatigue is an issue. Fatigue was definitely an issue in 1977. After the first week of August, after four tough games with the rangers, the hitters couldn't hit anymore. The pitchers neer could pitch on that team. Only a couple of players played decent defense and as Bill Gleason, I think, put it, they ran the bases like a team out of the Middle Ages, when they didn't have baseball and people just ran through the woods.

This season, fatigue to the pitchers is probably an issue. The hitting hasn't been a problem, except that the Sox can't outscore the opposition. Getting out to 4-0 and 3-0 leads is something the Sox weren't doing regularly in April, May and June, and I believe they have gotten off to leads of at least 3-0 in five straight games, two of which they have won.

I don't know what the problem is with the defense, but it has been inconsistent all year, and it shouldn't have been.

arKnaD7
08-02-2008, 11:43 PM
One guess would be that this team is old

I second that

hose
08-03-2008, 08:35 AM
If I had to simplify it down one thing it would be the Sox are home run or nothing.

hawkjt
08-03-2008, 11:48 AM
An old team will struggle thru August but pick it back up in Sept.
The twins play half their games in air-conditioned comfort, that helps them late in seasons just like the california teams usually play great the second half..A's,Angels,Giants, and Padres have a history of great stretch runs...they play in low humidity thruout the season and are strong in August and Sept.

Frankie5Angels
08-03-2008, 03:28 PM
And the 2nd half meltdown continues.

Railsplitter
08-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Unbalanced teams.